at home, he has promised again and again to bring inflation down. inflation is what erodes people's savings and pushes up prices and ultimately makes them poorer. yet the speed of price rises is stubbornly high. we still think the rate of inflation is going to come down, but it's taking a lot longer than we expected. he said nhs waiting lists would fall. i hope you've heard the good news. but the number of people stuck waiting for treatment is at an all—time high. there's over seven million patients on the waiting list at the moment i and that's only expected to grow | because of our workforce crisis. | and he said that he would stop political chaos. this government will have integrity, professionalism and accountability at every level. but controversy has never been far from his door, whether he likes it or not.

and the prime minister even dodged a vote on borisjohnson�*s conduct. so our big question this morning — how is rishi sunak faring in numberten? we sat down in the number ten garden to talk about the rebellion in russia, more staff for the nhs, and how on earth thousands of families are going to pay their mortgages. what's the alternative? labour's lisa nandy is with us from salford. to make sense of what is going on in russia — none better than steve rosenberg, our editor there. # never going to give you up #. and it's sunday. there's always room for a bit of light relief. the reluctant star of this year's glastonbury, rick astley, on whether he is cool at last.

morning, morning. it's a big day. the first time we've sat down to talk to rishi sunak at length since january. he's keen to talk about his plan for staff in the nhs. we were keen to put your big questions on the economy. but the last 2a hours have reminded everyone we live in an unpredictable world. here are the pictures of yevgeny prigozhin, whose attempted coup seems to have failed in russia. we'll talk about that in a sec. with me are marina litvinenko whose husband alexander, a russian dissident, died after a poisoning thought to be approved by putin. ben elton, the comedian and author and luke tryl, pollster with his finger on public opinion. welcome to you all. the front pages of the newspapers, no surprise, are all trying to work out what's next in russia.

the mirror says putin pushed to brink. the sunday telegraph says wagner mutineers turn back after striking deal with putin. and the sunday times says putin humiliated by mutiny. marina, you know brutally what the putin regime is capable of with your husband losing his life. when you saw what looked like a coup yesterday coming to him what did you think? , ., ., ., ~ ., ., think? first of all i talked to a lot of peeple _ think? first of all i talked to a lot of people here _ think? first of all i talked to a lot of people here in - think? first of all i talked to a lot of people here in uk - think? first of all i talked to a lot of people here in uk who i think? first of all i talked to a - lot of people here in uk who have beenin lot of people here in uk who have been in one way excited, something started to be changed in russia, but some are worried because prigozhin is not a hero and he is a criminal and he committed a lot of that sins in ukraine and you can't trust this person and this was all again a mess in russia, but it was a very special message. putin is not a person who controls anything in russia and this

image of a president who makes all these brutal things, it means that he onlyjust for frightening people but not controlling this. it he only just for frightening people but not controlling this.— but not controlling this. it shows his authority _ but not controlling this. it shows his authority what _ but not controlling this. it shows his authority what we _ but not controlling this. it shows his authority what we might - his authority what we might sometimes believe it to be. then, i know you watch politics closely. what went you through your mind when you saw it? i what went you through your mind when ou saw it? . . .,, what went you through your mind when ousawit? .. . , you saw it? i watch it as closely as any interesting — you saw it? i watch it as closely as any interesting person _ you saw it? i watch it as closely as any interesting person -- - you saw it? i watch it as closely as l any interesting person -- interested any interesting person —— interested person. _ any interesting person —— interested person. this — any interesting person —— interested person, this is geopolitics and russia — person, this is geopolitics and russia has the second—largest nuclear— russia has the second—largest nuclear arsenal in the world and one of the _ nuclear arsenal in the world and one of the most — nuclear arsenal in the world and one of the most selfish things i thought was chaos— of the most selfish things i thought was chaos in the country that precariously well armed is a terrifying thing. i grew up under the threat — terrifying thing. i grew up under the threat of the mushroom cloud and world _ the threat of the mushroom cloud and world war— the threat of the mushroom cloud and world war iii and suddenly it all seems — world war iii and suddenly it all seems to— world war iii and suddenly it all seems to be coming back closer to home _ seems to be coming back closer to home it_ seems to be coming back closer to home. �* ,.._ ., seems to be coming back closer to home. �* , ., ., seems to be coming back closer to home. �* ,.._ ., ., seems to be coming back closer to home. �* , ., ., i. ~ home. a scary moment for you. luke, one of the things _ home. a scary moment for you. luke, one of the things of _ home. a scary moment for you. luke, one of the things of this _ home. a scary moment for you. luke, one of the things of this country - home. a scary moment for you. luke, one of the things of this country as . one of the things of this country as people have been really supportive of the war in ukraine. do you sense thatis of the war in ukraine. do you sense that is still solid?— that is still solid? what's absolutely _ that is still solid? what's absolutely fascinating . that is still solid? what's i absolutely fascinating about

peopie's _ absolutely fascinating about people's attitudes _ absolutely fascinating about people's attitudes to - absolutely fascinating about people's attitudes to the - absolutely fascinating about i people's attitudes to the war absolutely fascinating about - people's attitudes to the war as we thought— people's attitudes to the war as we thought after— people's attitudes to the war as we thought after a _ people's attitudes to the war as we thought after a difficult _ people's attitudes to the war as we thought after a difficult winter- thought after a difficult winter here, — thought after a difficult winter here, the _ thought after a difficult winter here, the cost— thought after a difficult winter here, the cost of— thought after a difficult winter here, the cost of living - thought after a difficult winter here, the cost of living crisis, | here, the cost of living crisis, that— here, the cost of living crisis, that support _ here, the cost of living crisis, that support might— here, the cost of living crisis, that support might start - here, the cost of living crisis, that support might start to i here, the cost of living crisis, . that support might start to fade here, the cost of living crisis, - that support might start to fade but actually— that support might start to fade but actually the — that support might start to fade but actually the opposite _ that support might start to fade but actually the opposite has _ that support might start to fade but| actually the opposite has happened. people _ actually the opposite has happened. people are _ actually the opposite has happened. people are more _ actually the opposite has happened. people are more resolved _ actually the opposite has happened. people are more resolved than - actually the opposite has happened. people are more resolved than ever| people are more resolved than ever in our— people are more resolved than ever in our potting. — people are more resolved than ever in our polling, they're _ people are more resolved than ever in our polling, they're actually - people are more resolved than ever in our polling, they're actually not l in our polling, they're actually not only does — in our polling, they're actually not only does ukraine _ in our polling, they're actually not only does ukraine need _ in our polling, they're actually not only does ukraine need to- in our polling, they're actually not only does ukraine need to win - in our polling, they're actually not only does ukraine need to win but it's important— only does ukraine need to win but it's important to _ only does ukraine need to win but it's important to the _ only does ukraine need to win but it's important to the uk _ only does ukraine need to win but it's important to the uk that - it's important to the uk that ukraine _ it's important to the uk that ukraine wins. _ it's important to the uk that ukraine wins.— it's important to the uk that ukraine wins. ., , , it's important to the uk that ukraine wins. . , , ., ukraine wins. really interesting to see that's important, _ ukraine wins. really interesting to see that's important, holding - ukraine wins. really interesting to see that's important, holding up, | see that's important, holding up, despite the fact it's been going on a long time. more from you guys later. the situation is still quite unclear. what is certain is the prime minister and other world leaders have to grapple with what's happening in moscow. what is not certain is what exactly that is. it looked like a dramatic coup with troops from the mecenary group wagner on their way to the capital, but then last night, it was all off. they left rostov, a city they've seemingly taken just hours before. what does the bbc�*s russia editor steve rosenberg think is going on. it's a question i ask all the time,

what's happening in russia. at one point we were talking about this rebellion, the spectre of civil war in russia and suddenly in the evening a deal had been done between the kremlin and the wagner mercenary group according to which yevgeny prigozhin, the head of wagner, would have to leave russia and go to belarus and not be prosecuted and wagner fighters who had taken belarus and not be prosecuted and wagnerfighters who had taken part in the mutiny would not be prosecuted, they would go back to base. end of the potential confrontation. and now we are trying to sift through all of this and work out what it was and what it means for vladimir putin and yevgeny prigozhin. for vladimir putin and yevgeny priaozhin. , ., ., prigozhin. tell us about prigozhin. we discussed _ prigozhin. tell us about prigozhin. we discussed him _ prigozhin. tell us about prigozhin. we discussed him with _ prigozhin. tell us about prigozhin. we discussed him with the - prigozhin. tell us about prigozhin. | we discussed him with the russian ambassador in the uk a couple of weeks ago but he's become a hugely important figure. can you describe what he is and what he represents. he is a hugely colourful figure and this is the one who started off in the 1990s in st petersburg selling hot and then became a restaurant

her, got a catering business, got government contracts with that and went from food into fixing for the kremlin, so he became a kind of shady mrfix it kremlin, so he became a kind of shady mr fix it for vladimir putin's kremlin, setting up internet troll farm, a private mercenary group if the kremlin needed military help fighting in syria orfighting in ukraine. he's become an important figure. he became an important figure. he became an important figure for the kremlin but in recent months he's become increasingly vocalin months he's become increasingly vocal in his criticism of the russian military leadership over how the war in ukraine has been fought and that really burst out into the openin and that really burst out into the open in the last few days and reached a climax with this attempted mutiny. i5 reached a climax with this attempted mutin . , ., , ., ., mutiny. is he really out of the icture mutiny. is he really out of the picture though _ mutiny. is he really out of the picture though now? - mutiny. is he really out of the picture though now? i - mutiny. is he really out of the picture though now? i know. mutiny. is he really out of the | picture though now? i know it's confusing but do you have a sense of what might be next? it’s confusing but do you have a sense of what might be next?— what might be next? it's very difficult to — what might be next? it's very difficult to know _ what might be next? it's very difficult to know what's - what might be next? it's very difficult to know what's going | what might be next? it's very i difficult to know what's going to come next because i don't think we

know all the details of the agreement that was reached between the kremlin and wagner, and perhaps in the coming days more will emerge. for mr prigozhin the aim of this rebellion was to get rid of the russian defence minister and the chief of general staff. they have been fighting it out in a war of words for months now. we don't know whether those two very powerful figures in the russian military will keep theirjobs or not. if they don't, that would represent a major victory for mr prigozhin. and don't, that would represent a ma'or victory for mr prigozhin.i victory for mr prigozhin. and for vladimir putin, _ victory for mr prigozhin. and for vladimir putin, he _ victory for mr prigozhin. and for vladimir putin, he is _ victory for mr prigozhin. and for vladimir putin, he is still- victory for mr prigozhin. and for vladimir putin, he is still there, still in power, and yet surely he must have been weakened by this? yeah, i think he doesn't come out of this looking very strong at all. if you look at the ease with which the wagner mercenaries waltzed into rostov in southern russia and took control of the main military sites there, mr putin went on national television and came up with strong

words talking about betrayal and treachery and how russia has been stabbed in the back and yet by the end of the day yesterday, mr prigozhin, who clearly vladimir putin had labelled a traitor, had all the charges dropped against him, so i think at the end of all of this although we don't exactly know what is going on, what will happen next, president putin does not look particularly strong after this. and particularly strong after this. and what do you _ particularly strong after this. and what do you think the consequence could be here for ukraine? an opportunity for them? it could be here for ukraine? an opportunity for them?- could be here for ukraine? an opportunity for them? it all depends what is going — opportunity for them? it all depends what is going to _ opportunity for them? it all depends what is going to happen _ opportunity for them? it all depends what is going to happen next. - opportunity for them? it all depends what is going to happen next. while | what is going to happen next. while russia is consumed with its domestic problems, domestic issues, i suppose ukraine will see that as an opportunity for tite steve, thank you so much for speaking to us this morning, excellent to have you on the show. we're all already living with the consequences of russia's turmoil — energy prices, inflation, and because of that, interest rates going up and up and up. whether or not you have a mortgage, you know what it all means — money just doesn't stretch as far.

in his first long interview for some time, the prime minister told me inflation was enemy number one. and he talked about his plans that will be unveiled this week to train more staff for the nhs. but with such pressure on the country's purse strings, would he acknowledge how tough things are for millions? and speaking yesterday, did he think what was happening in russia was a coup? prime minister, what's happening in russia is clearly very significant. do you think this might be a coup against vladimir putin? well, we've been monitoring for a while now the potentially destabilising impact of russia's illegal war in ukraine. we are keeping a close eye on the situation as it's evolving on the ground as we speak. we are in touch with our allies and in fact i'll be speaking to some of them later today, but the most important thing i'd say is for all parties to be responsible and to protect civilians and that's as much as i can say at this moment. the ministry of defence though has said online this morning this is the most significant threat to the russian state in recent times. is that right? how do you see it? we've been monitoring for a while the potential

of russia's illegal invasion in ukraine to be destabilising, that's obviously, you've seen the situation is it's developing. we are keeping a close eye on that. we are in touch with our allies as the situation evolves. i'll be speaking to some of them later today and the most important thing is for all parties to behave responsibly and to protect civilian lives. when people look at this, is it good news or bad news that vladimir putin is being challenged? again, it's an evolving situation and i think the right thing at this juncture is for us to make sure we're on top of it, that we are in touch with our allies, which we are, and i'll be speaking to them later today, and that we call on all parties to exercise responsibility and to protect civilian lives. that's the most important thing for us in the uk to be doing at this juncture. have you heard from president zelensky about what's going on yet? as i said, i'm in touch with our allies. i'll be speaking to some of them later today. as you would expect us to be coordinated on a situation like this, but it is evolving as we speak. a last question, if there

are british citizens remaining in moscow or russia for example, we know a lot of people have left, but do you have advice for british citizens in russia at the moment while this is going on? we've had long—standing travel advice against travel to russia. that's on the foreign office website. people should regularly check that but it's been long—standing. we've had a long—standing advice advising against travel to russia for the obvious reasons but people should keep checking the foreign office website for updates. now, this week, you will, after a long time, publish your plans for staffing in the nhs over the long term, the workforce plan, as it's described. now, we've seen a draft of that plan that says essentially you need to double the number of training places for doctors and nurses. is that what you are going to do? at the beginning of the year i set out five priorities for the country. one of them was to cut waiting lists and that's why shortly after becoming prime minister we injected more money into the nhs, record funding in fact, to help the nhs do that. but i also want to make sure that the nhs is modernised and it's fit for the future and that's why we're going to do things differently. this week we are going to do something that no

government has ever done. it's one of the most significant announcements in the history of the nhs and that is to make sure that it has a long—term workforce plan so we can hire the doctors, nurses and gps we need, not just today, but for years into the future to provide the care we all need. so what does that mean and if i were a patient what difference would it make and when? so what it will represent is the largest expansion in training and workforce in the nhs�*s history but it's also going to draw on the latest innovations and techniques to streamline the process from classroom to clinic because it's right that health care adapts and evolves as our needs change and it will be supporting the nhs. this is the nhs�*s plan and it's right that we back them to do it and it will mean people can have confidence that the doctors and nurses and gps that we all need will be there and that we can reduce our reliance on foreign trained health care professionals. i think that's something everyone wants to see. for the first time this plan shows how we can do that. but when when ordinary patients see

a difference because it takes seven years to train a doctor, three years to train a nurse, so again, if i'm an ordinary patient, when will i see a difference? well, we should separate into the short—term and long—term. i'm prime minister that wants to make a difference today, and that's why cutting waiting lists is one of my five priorities, and people can already see that difference. last year we practically eliminated the number of people waiting two years for treatment. recently we virtually eliminated the number of people waiting one and a half years. if you look at the ambulance response times, a&e waiting times, they've improved considerably from... well, hang on, prime minister, hang on, prime minister, because... but you are right... ..hang on, i want to take you upon that point, prime minister. ..for the years into the future. you say what you are doing on waiting lists is already working. in actual fact the overall number of people waiting is the highest that it has ever been. targets on routine waiting lists have been missed. targets on cancer care have been missed. we can pick some selective statistics but overall the experience that people are having on waiting lists is dreadful, in many cases. it's because we've had a pandemic, laura, and the backlog that ensued was always going to take some time to work through.

many waiting lists were going in the wrong direction well before the pandemic. i've been here forjust over six months and in that time we've practically eliminated as i said last year the number of people waiting two years for treatment, we've just recently practically eliminated the number of people waiting one and a half years and you've seen an enormous improvement in a&e and ambulance waiting times since they were... but in january the overall number of people waiting was 7.2 million and now 7.4. it will take time for the overall waiting list to come down, because as we've recovered from covid and people have come back it was always going to take time, but i can tell you is that because of our record investment today, because of the plans we put in place, we are seeing that waiting lists are coming down for individual people and... forgive me... ..this is really important, and i've always said, the overall waiting list was not going to come down until next year. that was always the case. but between now and then we can start to eliminate the number of people waiting a very long time and then we are making progress on that. but it sounds a little bit like you are wanting us to believe

in some kind of parallel universe. you say again and again, we are cutting waiting lists, except you've just then admitted that the overall waiting list isn't coming down. isn't it important actually to say and to admit that overall waiting doesn't match up with you saying repeatedly that waiting lists are coming down because they are not, in many cases. that's literally what i said injanuary, laura, when i gave my speech about the five priorities, cutting waiting lists is rightly on there because it is a priority for the country because waiting lists are too high. people are waiting too long. that's why it's one of my five priorities and i was very clear then about what our timetable was to improve things and we are delivering against that timetable and i said very transparently and clearly then, injanuary, the overall waiting list itself was not expected to start coming down until next year but that doesn't take away from the fact that right now the nhs as a result of our investment and the plans we put in place is treating more people than it has ever done. and so it will take us a little bit of time to work through the backlog

that built up during covid. i think people can see that. but, look, you asked again about specifics. people were waiting completely unacceptably an hour and a half for ambulances over the winter and that has come down to around half an hour. we are close to 75% of people being seen within four hours at a&e. again, that was not happening in the winter. so there has been progress. so there has been progress but i've always said these things are not going to happen overnight, they will take time, but i want people to know that, this is really important, we've spent a lot of time talking about the short—term. what we are going to do this week is something about the long—term and government should make the right long—term decisions for the country. it has never been done before. people have always said the nhs needs a long—term plan so we hire more doctors, more nurses, more gps, and, yes, i'm not going to as you say... it takes five, ten, 15 years for these things to come through, that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing for me to do because i'm focused on the right long—term things for the country. and you've made that clear but in the context

of setting out a big, bold, long—term plan, why should anybody have faith that it will work when right now you can't even reach agreements with junior doctors or nurses to keep them in work and we know so many staff are leaving the nhs. so why can you believe your workforce plan actually will make the right kind of difference? well, first of all it's not my plan, it's the nhs�*s plan, so it's the nhs�*s long—term workforce plan that i'm pleased the government will be fully supporting and backing, so that's the first thing to say. now, you talked about pay settlements. i'm really pleased that we've been able to reach agreement with over half a dozen health unions representing over a million... you might be about to have the biggest strike ever. hang on, we've reached agreement with over half a dozen nhs unions representing over a million nhs workers who accepted our pay deal, which was done a little while ago and you reported on that. i really grateful to all those people for accepting it and for the hard work they do. i had actually the privilege of spending a part of the night shift the other weekend at watford general hospital talking to some of the team there and they are doing fantastic work, they deserve our support,

but more broadly i have to make difficult decisions as prime minister. everyone can see the context we are in with inflation and interest rates. now, i want to prioritise the things that are right for the country, so, yes, we are investing in the long—term workforce plan. when it comes to public sector pay i'm going to do what i think is affordable, what i think is responsible. now, that may not always be popular in the short term but it's the right thing for the country. let's talk then about that broader economic picture because lots of our viewers are desperately worried about interest rates. the point ofjacking up interest rates is to make it more expensive to borrow and therefore that means that people will have less money to spend and it means that people watching this right now are going to hurt. they are going to have less cash to go around. do you admit it will be painful for many, many people? of course i know it's a challenging time and that's why two years ago i started talking about the danger of inflation and that's why earlier this year when i set out my five priorities, what is the first of those?

to halve inflation. that's a different question, prime minister, and it might be hard to say to people but i think people look to their prime minister for candour and to tell them hard things. do you admit that there is going to be a lot of financial pain for many, many people and is it worth it in order to get inflation down? inflation, laura, is the thing that causes people financial pain. inflation is the enemy. why? because inflation eats the pound in your pocket. it makes your paycheque go less far. it eats into your savings and pushes up prices. it puts at riskjobs and livelihoods. inflation is the enemy that we need to conquer. that's why. .. interest rates going up are also an enemy for many people watching so again... interest rates are a consequence of high inflation and i think we should be very clear about what is doing damage to people, what is causing people challenges in their day—to—day living and their budgeting is inflation and it's inflation that needs to be the priority for the government to stamp out and i'm prepared to do that,

and again that's why it's my number one priority, so people can have some confidence in it, but also i was one of the first politicians to start talking about the dangers of inflation. so you are prepared to see rates continue to rise in order to squeeze inflation, that's what you are saying, but do you admit that that is going to hurt for a lot of people? we are inundated with e—mails from people saying their mortgage is going to double, we are inundated with people saying they can't afford their rent, we are inundated with e—mails from people saying they are just not going to be able to afford it on top of everything else that has gone up. now, it might be the right thing to do, to prepare to say it, but do you admit it's going to hurt? so first of all with interest rates, yes, they are going up in the uk and i fully support the bank of england in their actions. they are also going up in almost all other countries. if you look at interest rates in australia, in america, in canada, in new zealand, all very similar rates to here in the uk. rates in europe at the highest they've been for 20 years, so we are not alone

in facing this challenge. central banks across the world are taking similar action. but do you think that's a comfort for people? it sounds a bit like you are putting it... i'm putting it in context. it's important, actually, you've talked about me as prime minister. part of myjob is to explain to people what is happening with the economy, the context we are in. it's right for people to know that the global macro economic context but let's go to the individual person. what are we doing to help? because of course when someone sees their mortgage rates go up that's going to have an impact on their family finances. of course it is. and that's why we are putting in support in place to help people. just this week the chancellor sat down with the banks to put in place a series of measures that people can draw on. now, we have the welfare system, there is a support for mortgage scheme for people who are particularly vulnerable, but for others they can now talk to their bank, they can request an extension to their mortgage or a switch to an interest only mortgage. none of that will have an impact on their credit rating and it will save them potentially hundreds of pounds a month on their mortgage payments. but rates have already been going up, core inflation is not coming down and the wealthy, who've already paid their houses off

are going to see interest rates go up on their savings pot, and ordinary families who think they've done the right thing, they've saved, they've managed to get onto the property ladder, they are the people that are going to suffer here. isn't there an alternative, or is it your belief there is no alternative to this? no, there isn't an alternative to stamping out inflation. is there an alternative to putting up interest rates? well, that is one component of what we need to do to tackle inflation. that's what the bank of england's responsibility is and it's right that you ask me, my responsibility is also there and that's to manage the government's borrowing responsibly because if i make the wrong decisions, if we end up borrowing too much money and we talked about public sector pay earlier being a good example of that, if i make the wrong decisions, borrow too much money, that will put further fuel on the fire of the inflation challenge and willjust mean inflation is going to be here for longer, be worse and interest rates will be higherfor longer. now, that's my responsibility to get right is government borrowing and that's why i have to take

what are difficult and often at times not popular decisions, but they are the right long—term decisions for the country. i'm not going to shy away from that. i spent all of last summer talking about this. i talked about it as chancellor and as prime minister i'm going to do the things that will ultimately benefit the country and all the families you talked about in the long term, because there's no point, there's no point, laura, in me doing something that sounds popular and nice today, for example on public sector pay, i would be giving with one hand and we would just be taking with the other through higher inflation. that's not the right type of leadership that the country needs. that's not what i'm going to do. but this week you've told people that it's going to be ok. do you understand why people looking at their mortgage bills, looking at their shopping bill, worrying about keeping a roof over their heads, are going to listen to you and think, it's not going to be ok for me? doesn't it sound to many people, or might it risk sounding, that you are in some kind of parallel universe where the nhs is getting better and the economy is going to be ok. it's not the experience of millions of people right now. i've never said that

it's not challenging. i've never said this isn't going to be a difficult time to get through. but what i want to give people the reassurance and confidence is that we've got a plan, the plan will work and we will get through this. that's exactly what people should be hearing from their prime minister and the government particularly from me, given that this particular issue is what i've talked about for a while. i deliberately made it the first of my five priorities so no one can say is not something i'm not aware of, not on top of, and people should have the reassurance that the plans we've got the right ones because they will bring inflation down over time and they will provide support for the people who most need as we go through this difficult period. we've demonstrated that already. windfall tax on energy companies which has helped pay for around half the typical family's energy bill, support worth £1500, that's the government stepping in to support people in that particular circumstance which it needed to do, the chancellor's announcements this week with the banks and providing support to people with mortgages which they should look up, talk to their banks about, it will make a meaningful difference, extending your mortgage term,

switching to an interest only mortgage, those types of things for a typical family with a typical mortgage have the potential to save them £100 — £200 a month. so there is support out there from people's banks if they know where to get it. i just want to ask you two final questions. do you think the governor of the bank of england has done a good job? i think the bank of england's track record including the governor's track record, over a long period of time, has been that inflation has been managed appropriately and people should have the confidence that inflation will fall back to target as it is... not all of your colleagues think he's done a good job. i can tell you as prime minister the bank of england is doing the right thing, the bank of england has my total support. inflation is the enemy, for all the reasons we've talked about, inflation is what makes people poorer, that's why i prioritised tackling it as the number one thing that i said injanuary. now, look, that means difficult things. i could sit here and tell you we could wish it all away, that there was some easy overnight fix, we didn't have to put up interest rates unlike every other country, i could pay everybody

exactly what they wanted, we could spend on everything we wanted, borrow without abandon, but i would not be being honest with the country if i said that. that's not leadership. now, yes, are things challenging? yes. does that mean i have to make some difficult decisions as prime minister? of course it does. but those are the right decisions for the long—term benefit of our country. i didn't get into this to do easy things, i didn't get in this for the short term opinion polls and all the rest of it. i get that this is challenging and that's going to have an impact on the initial term but we've got to stick to the cause and i want people to be reassured that we've got to hold our nerve, stick to the plan and we will get through this. and i finally want to ask you about something that relates directly to honesty and leadership. now, a clear verdict was given by the house of commons that your former boss boris johnson lied to parliament. now, you haven't given a view on whether or not you agree with that verdict. so do you agree with that verdict? you've just said you want to be honest and you want to show

leadership, so do you agree? yes, i've already said in fact that i do fully support and respect not just the work of the committee who i think did a very thorough job but also the decision of the house. it's right that people... that's not my question. hang on, let me finish because i think this is important. i do think it's right that people, whatever their position, face responsibility and accountability for their actions. that has happened and most importantly borisjohnson is no longer an mp. now, you asked me my view about this and standing up for things, being honest, i was the person who as chancellor resigned from boris johnson's government. you know this better than most because you followed politics for a long time. but you did not vote in the commons... because i was actually speaking and attending an event at a fantastic charity called jewish care, which does an extraordinaryjob looking after people around the country. and you could have gone in the prime ministerial car and gone back to the house of commons... or i could have fulfilled my commitment to these people who are doing an extraordinaryjob and support the charity and their fundraising efforts which i had committed to do. but laura, your point is, do i have to demonstrate my integrity

under my leadership? i did that when i resigned. i demonstrated that i was prepared to stand up for what i believe in. you know this better than most, you've follow politics for a very long time. it's not an easy or common thing for a chancellor to resign from government. i did because i disagreed with borisjohnson, but let's take one thing, right... i want to ask you... this is really important. your critics, forgive me, this is important, your critics have said, i'm not saying this, but your critics have said it was weak for you not to go to back the report. what do you say to them? i point them to the example i've just given you, right? there was nothing weak about resigning from government when i disagreed with the approach. that's principled. that was me acting on my principles. and actually i'm not interested in litigating the past about boris johnson. he's no longer an mp. the choice at the next election is between me and keir starmer. actually, what i demonstrated by resigning from borisjohnson's government, was that i was prepared to stand up for my principles. keir starmer sat there for four years next to jeremy corbyn saying he was the right person

to lead our country, right? that speaks to his principles. my resignation speaks to mine. we've been talking about inflation, important and absolutely right. what's the alternative on offer from the labour party? £28 billion a year of more borrowing. that would push up inflation and interest rates, not exploiting our energy reserves here at home, that's not the right, sensible thing to do in the midst of an energy crisis, and giving in to unions�* unaffordable pay demands, that would be inflationary and push up interest rates. that's the choice confronting people right now. it's not about the past, it's about the future and who is the right person to lead this country and everyone can see the context we are in and they can see i've prioritised the right things, having inflation, growing the economy, reducing debt, cutting waiting lists and stopping the boats. i never said it was going to be easy, i've been doing this for six months but on all of those things we are making progress and if we stick to the course we will deliver for the country. i knew that somehow you would get your five pledges in there by the end and of course the labour party would dispute

a lot of what you just said, but very quickly, yes or no, do you think you are going to win the next election? yes, because i'm going to deliver on the things i say and the labour party can dispute all they want, they want to borrow £28 billion a year, that's going to push up inflation and interest rates. they don't think we should exploit our energy resources here at home in the midst of an energy crisis and we should put more power in the hands of dictators like vladimir putin and they also are not prepared to stand up to unaffordable union pay demands. those are all facts. all of those things will make the current economic situation worse. i also resigned from someone's government when i disagreed with their approach, keir starmer sat there next to jeremy corbyn for four years. those are my principles, those are my values, and i, unlike anyone else, have actually set out five very clear things which rightly you can sit here and hold me accountable for which is what exactly i wanted. now, that is not something that every prime minister and every politician does, but i wanted to be very clear with the country about what i was going to deliver for them and i'm highly confident we will and that i'm the right person to do it. ok, prime minister, the labour party would dispute what you've just

called facts but we'll talk to them about those on another occasion. thank you very much for speaking to us today. thank you very much. and inviting us to the beautiful downing street garden. thanks for your time. what did you think of that? email me — kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk. or use the hashtag — #bbclaurak. before the summer holidays we'll be talking to the labour leader keir starmer on the show too. if you want to get ahead, send a question for him too. as we told the prime minister we were inundated with emails from you last week about your mortgages and rents, and we wanted to share some of them. tony from oldham told us my mortgage has gone up by £700. any further increase and i will lose my house. i'm earning a good salary but it's been swallowed. neither has been renting privately with her son. she told us...

we also got this message from joseph, 27 and newly qualified teacher from the south—east. joseph, 27 and newly qualified teacher from the south-east. given the hiuh teacher from the south-east. given the high cost _ teacher from the south-east. given the high cost of _ teacher from the south-east. given the high cost of property, _ teacher from the south-east. given the high cost of property, high - the high cost of property, high interest rates and my low public sector wage, interest rates and my low public sectorwage, housing interest rates and my low public sector wage, housing just seems unattainable for me but i and finally, ollie got in touch to say... let theme what my team at the table have to say, penn, you are looking unimpressed during the interview but what did you think of what mr sunak said? it’s what did you think of what mr sunak said? �* , ., what did you think of what mr sunak said? i ., ,., . what did you think of what mr sunak said? �*, ., . , ,, said? it's not so much depressed as sad. if said? it's not so much depressed as sad- if anybody _ said? it's not so much depressed as sad. if anybody were _ said? it's not so much depressed as sad. if anybody were still _ said? it's not so much depressed as sad. if anybody were still watching i sad. if anybody were still watching after the _ sad. if anybody were still watching after the extraordinary meaningless word salad, i'd sort of... everybody else word salad, i'd sort of... everybody also wanted — word salad, i'd sort of... everybody else wanted to believe and i believed maybe he's kind of a bit more _ believed maybe he's kind of a bit more decent and it turns out he is

as much— more decent and it turns out he is as much of— more decent and it turns out he is as much of a — more decent and it turns out he is as much of a mendacious narcissistic sociopath _ as much of a mendacious narcissistic sociopath as — as much of a mendacious narcissistic sociopath as his previous boss. this man literally, he seemed to be making — man literally, he seemed to be making a — man literally, he seemed to be making a principle of the fact that he resigned from a government that he resigned from a government that he had _ he resigned from a government that he had served loyally and tried to keep— he had served loyally and tried to keep propped up for numerous years, trying _ keep propped up for numerous years, trying to— keep propped up for numerous years, trying to boast about having worried about _ trying to boast about having worried about inflation while he was chancellor of the exchequer under johnson, — chancellor of the exchequer under johnson, he seems to act as being born— johnson, he seems to act as being born into — johnson, he seems to act as being born into downing street six months a-o born into downing street six months ago was _ born into downing street six months ago was a _ born into downing street six months ago was a miracle birth, no, he was part of— ago was a miracle birth, no, he was part of a _ ago was a miracle birth, no, he was part of a 13 — ago was a miracle birth, no, he was part of a 13 year cycle which has .ot part of a 13 year cycle which has got us _ part of a 13 year cycle which has got us to— part of a 13 year cycle which has got us to this point. he talks about other— got us to this point. he talks about other countries having the same problems. — other countries having the same problems, he doesn't admit what he well knows — problems, he doesn't admit what he well knows it is they are all doing better— well knows it is they are all doing better under them. the evasion, the constant _ better under them. the evasion, the constant repetition of a... i genuinely— constant repetition of a... i genuinely wanted to believe that maybe _ genuinely wanted to believe that maybe the tories had made a reset even _ maybe the tories had made a reset even though they had elected a man who had _ even though they had elected a man who had loyally served under johnson, _ who had loyally served under johnson, a man who made a mockery of a parliamentary democracy and clearly — a parliamentary democracy and clearly was vina lee motivated by self—interest, the fact that the

tories — self—interest, the fact that the tories chose that easy option, for a man now— tories chose that easy option, for a man now to— tories chose that easy option, for a man now to say we don't take easy options _ man now to say we don't take easy options when they took the easy option— options when they took the easy option which wasjohnson options when they took the easy option which was johnson because they thought it would keep them in power. _ they thought it would keep them in power, and when they thought for a moment— power, and when they thought for a moment they wouldn't they dumped him instantly. _ moment they wouldn't they dumped him instantly. i— moment they wouldn't they dumped him instantly, i mean, he is the prime minister. — instantly, i mean, he is the prime minister. he — instantly, i mean, he is the prime minister, he owes is honesty and we .ot minister, he owes is honesty and we got nothing — minister, he owes is honesty and we got nothing but mendacity, evasion and vanity. — got nothing but mendacity, evasion and vanity, just dripping with vanity— and vanity, just dripping with vanity for— and vanity, just dripping with vanity for tite fair to say you were not convinced, i think.— not convinced, i think. luke, you worked for— not convinced, i think. luke, you worked for the _ not convinced, i think. luke, you worked for the conservatives, i not convinced, i think. luke, you| worked for the conservatives, you understand the party, but now you'd spend your time dealing with public opinion. spending your life talking to voters about their experiences, what do you think most people will have made of what rishi sunak had to say there? have made of what rishi sunak had to sa there? ~ ., i. .,, say there? what you saw there was what the public _ say there? what you saw there was what the public most _ say there? what you saw there was what the public most like _ say there? what you saw there was what the public most like and - what the public most like and dislike — what the public most like and dislike about _ what the public most like and dislike about rishi _ what the public most like and dislike about rishi sunak. - what the public most like and i dislike about rishi sunak. when what the public most like and - dislike about rishi sunak. when we do focus _ dislike about rishi sunak. when we do focus groups. _ dislike about rishi sunak. when we do focus groups, people _ dislike about rishi sunak. when we do focus groups, people say - dislike about rishi sunak. when we do focus groups, people say he - dislike about rishi sunak. when we do focus groups, people say he is l do focus groups, people say he is competent, — do focus groups, people say he is competent, a _ do focus groups, people say he is competent, a smart _ do focus groups, people say he is competent, a smart guy, - do focus groups, people say he is competent, a smart guy, he - do focus groups, people say he is i competent, a smart guy, he clearly .ets competent, a smart guy, he clearly gets it. _ competent, a smart guy, he clearly gets it. they— competent, a smart guy, he clearly gets it, they think _ competent, a smart guy, he clearly gets it, they think he's _ competent, a smart guy, he clearly gets it, they think he's an - gets it, they think he's an improvement— gets it, they think he's an improvement on- gets it, they think he's an improvement on his - gets it, they think he's an - improvement on his predecessors gets it, they think he's an _ improvement on his predecessors and then they— improvement on his predecessors and then they say, — improvement on his predecessors and then they say. my— improvement on his predecessors and then they say, my worry _ improvement on his predecessors and then they say, my worry is _ improvement on his predecessors and then they say, my worry is does - improvement on his predecessors and then they say, my worry is does he i then they say, my worry is does he .et then they say, my worry is does he get it. _ then they say, my worry is does he get it. does— then they say, my worry is does he get it. does he _ then they say, my worry is does he

get it, does he really— then they say, my worry is does he get it, does he really understand . get it, does he really understand our lives, — get it, does he really understand our lives, particularly— get it, does he really understand our lives, particularly during - get it, does he really understand our lives, particularly during this| our lives, particularly during this moment— our lives, particularly during this moment when— our lives, particularly during this moment when the _ our lives, particularly during this moment when the economy - our lives, particularly during this moment when the economy is l our lives, particularly during this| moment when the economy is so difficult _ moment when the economy is so difficult for — moment when the economy is so difficult for so _ moment when the economy is so difficult for so many _ moment when the economy is so difficult for so many people? - moment when the economy is so difficult for so many people? the other— difficult for so many people? the other thing — difficult for so many people? the other thing they'll— difficult for so many people? the other thing they'll often - difficult for so many people? the other thing they'll often say- difficult for so many people? the other thing they'll often say is, l difficult for so many people? thel other thing they'll often say is, he is clearly— other thing they'll often say is, he is clearly good _ other thing they'll often say is, he is clearly good and _ other thing they'll often say is, he is clearly good and clearly - other thing they'll often say is, he is clearly good and clearly good i other thing they'll often say is, he is clearly good and clearly good ini is clearly good and clearly good in business — is clearly good and clearly good in business but _ is clearly good and clearly good in business but in _ is clearly good and clearly good in business but in politics, _ is clearly good and clearly good in business but in politics, is- is clearly good and clearly good in business but in politics, is he - business but in politics, is he strong — business but in politics, is he strong enough? _ business but in politics, is he strong enough? why- business but in politics, is he strong enough? why doesn't| business but in politics, is he . strong enough? why doesn't he business but in politics, is he - strong enough? why doesn't he stand up strong enough? why doesn't he stand up to boris— strong enough? why doesn't he stand up to borisjohnson? _ strong enough? why doesn't he stand up to boris johnson? he _ strong enough? why doesn't he stand up to boris johnson?— up to boris johnson? he was chancellor, _ up to boris johnson? he was chancellor, chancellor - up to boris johnson? he was chancellor, chancellor for i up to boris johnson? he was i chancellor, chancellor for quite up to boris johnson? he was - chancellor, chancellor for quite a lon- chancellor, chancellor for quite a long time — chancellor, chancellor for quite a long time and if he clever? he gets a lot of credit _ long time and if he clever? he gets a lot of credit for _ long time and if he clever? he gets a lot of credit for furlough. - long time and if he clever? he gets a lot of credit for furlough. people | a lot of credit for furlough. people say he _ a lot of credit for furlough. people say he saved — a lot of credit for furlough. people say he saved my— a lot of credit for furlough. people say he saved myjob _ a lot of credit for furlough. people say he saved myjob but _ a lot of credit for furlough. people say he saved myjob but they- a lot of credit for furlough. peoplel say he saved myjob but they worry as prime _ say he saved myjob but they worry as prime minister— say he saved myjob but they worry as prime minister he _ say he saved myjob but they worry as prime minister he is— say he saved myjob but they worry as prime minister he is not- say he saved myjob but they worry as prime minister he is not telling. as prime minister he is not telling them _ as prime minister he is not telling them what — as prime minister he is not telling them what he _ as prime minister he is not telling them what he is _ as prime minister he is not telling them what he is going _ as prime minister he is not telling them what he is going to - as prime minister he is not telling them what he is going to do - as prime minister he is not telling them what he is going to do to. as prime minister he is not telling i them what he is going to do to make their lives— them what he is going to do to make their lives better. _ them what he is going to do to make their lives better. it's— their lives better. it's interesting, - their lives better. it's interesting, ben - their lives better. it's interesting, ben was| their lives better— interesting, ben was talking about the script, the repetition and it's something i raised with him, sometimes it sounds like a script. our voters raising that with you? do people notice when mr sunak goes to those lines? ., people notice when mr sunak goes to those lines?— those lines? yeah, that's the sort of thin . those lines? yeah, that's the sort of thing that _ those lines? yeah, that's the sort of thing that cuts _ those lines? yeah, that's the sort of thing that cuts through - those lines? yeah, that's the sort of thing that cuts through with - those lines? yeah, that's the sort| of thing that cuts through with the public— of thing that cuts through with the public and — of thing that cuts through with the public and it's— of thing that cuts through with the public and it's even _ of thing that cuts through with the public and it's even reached - of thing that cuts through with the public and it's even reached the i public and it's even reached the stage _ public and it's even reached the stage in— public and it's even reached the stage in our— public and it's even reached the stage in our most— public and it's even reached the stage in our most recent - public and it's even reached the stage in our most recent focusl stage in our most recent focus groups— stage in our most recent focus groups where _ stage in our most recent focus groups where people - stage in our most recent focus groups where people have - stage in our most recent focus - groups where people have started mocking _ groups where people have started mocking the — groups where people have started mocking the five _ groups where people have started mocking the five pledges - groups where people have started mocking the five pledges because| mocking the five pledges because they say, — mocking the five pledges because they say, i— mocking the five pledges because they say. i know— mocking the five pledges because they say, i know what _ mocking the five pledges because they say, i know what he's - mocking the five pledges because they say, i know what he's going| mocking the five pledges because i they say, i know what he's going to

say, one. _ they say, i know what he's going to say. one. two. _ they say, i know what he's going to say, one, two, three... _ they say, i know what he's going to say, one, two, three... worries- they say, i know what he's going to. say, one, two, three... worries they want _ say, one, two, three... worries they want to— say, one, two, three... worries they want to know— say, one, two, three... worries they want to know what _ say, one, two, three... worries they want to know what are _ say, one, two, three... worries they want to know what are you _ say, one, two, three... worries they want to know what are you going - say, one, two, three... worries they want to know what are you going toi want to know what are you going to do about _ want to know what are you going to do about them _ want to know what are you going to do about them and _ want to know what are you going to do about them and if— want to know what are you going to do about them and if he's— want to know what are you going to do about them and if he's going - want to know what are you going to do about them and if he's going toi do about them and if he's going to turn things— do about them and if he's going to turn things around, _ do about them and if he's going to turn things around, turning - do about them and if he's going to turn things around, turning things| turn things around, turning things round _ turn things around, turning things round will— turn things around, turning things round will be _ turn things around, turning things round will be hard, _ turn things around, turning things round will be hard, he's _ turn things around, turning things round will be hard, he's got - turn things around, turning things round will be hard, he's got to- round will be hard, he's got to leave — round will be hard, he's got to leave it — round will be hard, he's got to leave it -- _ round will be hard, he's got to leave it —— he's _ round will be hard, he's got to leave it —— he's got _ round will be hard, he's got to leave it —— he's got to- round will be hard, he's got to leave it —— he's got to lean- round will be hard, he's got tol leave it —— he's got to lean into the delivery— leave it —— he's got to lean into the delivery plan _ leave it —— he's got to lean into the delivery plan rather- leave it —— he's got to lean into the delivery plan rather than i leave it —— he's got to lean into - the delivery plan rather than coming across— the delivery plan rather than coming across as _ the delivery plan rather than coming across as a — the delivery plan rather than coming across as a commentator _ the delivery plan rather than coming across as a commentator which - the delivery plan rather than coming across as a commentator which the i across as a commentator which the public— across as a commentator which the public don't — across as a commentator which the public don't like. _ across as a commentator which the public don't like. did _ across as a commentator which the public don't like.— public don't like. did you think you should lean _ public don't like. did you think you should lean into _ public don't like. did you think you should lean into the _ public don't like. did you think you should lean into the fact _ public don't like. did you think you should lean into the fact he's - public don't like. did you think you should lean into the fact he's been a part— should lean into the fact he's been a part of— should lean into the fact he's been a part of the government for so many years? _ a part of the government for so many years? every— a part of the government for so many years? every time they reset they kind of— years? every time they reset they kind of pretend that all the problems are new, that they are nothing — problems are new, that they are nothing to— problems are new, that they are nothing to do with them, yet he was the chancellor was green i don't think— the chancellor was green i don't think he's— the chancellor was green i don't think he's got a choice but to do that because he wanted it to be a reset _ that because he wanted it to be a reset. he— that because he wanted it to be a reset. , ., ., ., ., reset. he should have voted on monday and — reset. he should have voted on monday and that's _ reset. he should have voted on monday and that's the - reset. he should have voted on monday and that's the kind - reset. he should have voted on monday and that's the kind of. reset. he should have voted on - monday and that's the kind of thing for type _ monday and that's the kind of thing for type on— monday and that's the kind of thing for type on the _ monday and that's the kind of thing for type on the report _ monday and that's the kind of thing for type on the report that - monday and that's the kind of thing for type on the report that said - for type on the report that said boris _ for type on the report that said borisjohnson _ for type on the report that said borisjohnson lied _ for type on the report that said boris johnson lied to _ for type on the report that said boris johnson lied to the - for type on the report that said i boris johnson lied to the house. marina. — boris johnson lied to the house. marina. you _ boris johnson lied to the house. marina, you heard _ boris johnson lied to the house. marina, you heard the _ boris johnson lied to the house. marina, you heard the prime - boris johnson lied to the house. - marina, you heard the prime minister quite carefully— marina, you heard the prime minister quite carefully talking _ marina, you heard the prime minister quite carefully talking about - marina, you heard the prime minister quite carefully talking about what - quite carefully talking about what was happening _ quite carefully talking about what was happening in _ quite carefully talking about what was happening in russia - quite carefully talking about what was happening in russia and - quite carefully talking about what was happening in russia and we i quite carefully talking about what - was happening in russia and we spoke to him _ was happening in russia and we spoke to him yesterday— was happening in russia and we spoke to him yesterday when _ was happening in russia and we spoke to him yesterday when things - was happening in russia and we spoke to him yesterday when things were - to him yesterday when things were very unclean — to him yesterday when things were very unclear-— very unclear. what would you like western leaders _ very unclear. what would you like western leaders to _ very unclear. what would you like western leaders to do? _ very unclear. what would you like western leaders to do? you - very unclear. what would you like - western leaders to do? you sometimes get the sense they are supporting us they can in ukraine but are looking on horrified to russia but not sure what to do.

on horrified to russia but not sure what to do— what to do. yes, you are right. for one ear what to do. yes, you are right. for one year and _ what to do. yes, you are right. for one year and a _ what to do. yes, you are right. for one year and a half— what to do. yes, you are right. for one year and a half almost - what to do. yes, you are right. for one year and a half almost when . what to do. yes, you are right. for| one year and a half almost when we have a war in ukraine i can't see international leaders have a strong reaction, sure, they want to help, they accept ukrainian people in a different country, they have a support, but they still want to keep putin and at least to have some kind of controlling of russia. but what happened yesterday, they can see, putin doesn't control, nothing, and most important, if you want to save russia from collapsing you need to take putin out from this place. [30 take putin out from this place. do ou take putin out from this place. do you think it's realistic for the west to do that? hot you think it's realistic for the west to do that?— you think it's realistic for the west to do that? ., ., west to do that? not to communicate with putin as — west to do that? not to communicate with putin as a _ west to do that? not to communicate with putin as a leader _ west to do that? not to communicate with putin as a leader of _ west to do that? not to communicate with putin as a leader of the - with putin as a leader of the country because he doesn't control anything and even nuclear weapons might be used without his knowledge for site very interesting. let's go back to public opinion. luke, you immerse yourself in this.- back to public opinion. luke, you immerse yourself in this. there is a sense when — immerse yourself in this. there is a sense when you _ immerse yourself in this. there is a sense when you talk _ immerse yourself in this. there is a sense when you talk to _ immerse yourself in this. there is a sense when you talk to a _ immerse yourself in this. there is a sense when you talk to a lot - immerse yourself in this. there is a sense when you talk to a lot of - sense when you talk to a lot of politicians privately that their

constituents, we know it from our e—mail inbox, sense there is a mood of grumpiness and frustration in the country right now. luke, can you show us, there's a word cloud, if you are not familiar with it, you think of a word to describe the state of britain and we can show people your recent findings. look at the words, struggling, mess, broken is the biggest one. this the words, struggling, mess, broken is the biggest one.— is the biggest one. this is what we hear in every _ is the biggest one. this is what we hear in every focus _ is the biggest one. this is what we hear in every focus group - is the biggest one. this is what we hear in every focus group we - is the biggest one. this is what we hear in every focus group we do, i is the biggest one. this is what we l hear in every focus group we do, the words _ hear in every focus group we do, the words that— hear in every focus group we do, the words that come _ hear in every focus group we do, the words that come out _ hear in every focus group we do, the i words that come out overwhelmingly negative, _ words that come out overwhelmingly negative, people _ words that come out overwhelmingly negative, people think _ words that come out overwhelmingly negative, people think britain - words that come out overwhelmingly negative, people think britain is - negative, people think britain is too expensive _ negative, people think britain is too expensive and _ negative, people think britain is too expensive and it's _ negative, people think britain is too expensive and it's stopped i too expensive and it's stopped working — too expensive and it's stopped working in— too expensive and it's stopped working. in fact _ too expensive and it's stopped working. in fact i _ too expensive and it's stopped working. in fact i did a - too expensive and it's stopped working. in fact i did a focus. too expensive and it's stopped - working. in fact i did a focus group last weekend — working. in fact i did a focus group last weekend at _ working. in fact i did a focus group last weekend at the _ working. in fact i did a focus group last weekend at the end _ working. in fact i did a focus group last weekend at the end i - working. in fact i did a focus group last weekend at the end i asked i last weekend at the end i asked everyone — last weekend at the end i asked everyone to _ last weekend at the end i asked everyone to go _ last weekend at the end i asked everyone to go round _ last weekend at the end i asked everyone to go round and - last weekend at the end i asked i everyone to go round and describe how you _ everyone to go round and describe how you are — everyone to go round and describe how you are feeling _ everyone to go round and describe how you are feeling about - everyone to go round and describe how you are feeling about the - everyone to go round and describe how you are feeling about the uk. everyone to go round and describe i how you are feeling about the uk and what the _ how you are feeling about the uk and what the government _ how you are feeling about the uk and what the government is _ how you are feeling about the uk and what the government is doing - how you are feeling about the uk and what the government is doing and - what the government is doing and about— what the government is doing and about mortgages, _ what the government is doing and about mortgages, and _ what the government is doing and about mortgages, and the - what the government is doing and | about mortgages, and the number what the government is doing and - about mortgages, and the number one word there _ about mortgages, and the number one word there was — about mortgages, and the number one word there was a — about mortgages, and the number one word there was a it's _ about mortgages, and the number one word there was a it's this _ about mortgages, and the number one word there was a it's this real- word there was a it's this real sense — word there was a it's this real sense that _ word there was a it's this real sense that the _ word there was a it's this real sense that the uk, _ word there was a it's this real sense that the uk, it's- word there was a it's this real sense that the uk, it's not. word there was a it's this real. sense that the uk, it's not living up sense that the uk, it's not living up to— sense that the uk, it's not living up to its— sense that the uk, it's not living up to its potential— sense that the uk, it's not living up to its potential and _ sense that the uk, it's not living up to its potential and our- up to its potential and our political— up to its potential and our political class _ up to its potential and our political class and - up to its potential and our political class and this - up to its potential and our. political class and this goes up to its potential and our- political class and this goes right across, _ political class and this goes right across, its— political class and this goes right across, it's not _ political class and this goes right across, it's notjust_ political class and this goes right across, it's not just the - across, it's notjust the conservatives, - across, it's notjust the conservatives, haven't| across, it's not just the . conservatives, haven't got across, it's not just the - conservatives, haven't got a grip across, it's not just the _ conservatives, haven't got a grip on the big _ conservatives, haven't got a grip on the big challenges— conservatives, haven't got a grip on the big challenges we _ conservatives, haven't got a grip on the big challenges we face. - conservatives, haven't got a grip on the big challenges we face. pi- conservatives, haven't got a grip on the big challenges we face. a plague on both your — the big challenges we face. a plague on both your houses. _

the big challenges we face. a plague on both your houses. then, - the big challenges we face. a plague on both your houses. then, a - the big challenges we face. a plague on both your houses. then, a new. on both your houses. then, a new channel 4 on both your houses. then, a new channel a documentary, the trains, tellers about that —— ben, a new channel 4 tellers about that —— ben, a new channel a documentary. you tellers about that -- ben, a new channel a documentary. channel 4 documentary. you say u-rum , channel a documentary. you say grumpy. upset. _ channel a documentary. you say grumpy. upset. deeply - channel a documentary. you say grumpy, upset, deeply worried, | channel a documentary. you say| grumpy, upset, deeply worried, i feel it— grumpy, upset, deeply worried, i feel it very— grumpy, upset, deeply worried, i feel it very strongly. i've seen a little _ feel it very strongly. i've seen a little emotional with the reaction to the _ little emotional with the reaction to the sunak interview simply because — to the sunak interview simply because of the absolute lack of engagement of the reality of where we are _ engagement of the reality of where we are now in britain, you know, post— we are now in britain, you know, post brexit. _ we are now in britain, you know, post brexit, post the pandemic, and certainly— post brexit, post the pandemic, and certainly my recent exploration which _ certainly my recent exploration which has — certainly my recent exploration which has been into our transport system _ which has been into our transport system which is a vital public resource. _ system which is a vital public resource, a public service, something which of course makes a massive _ something which of course makes a massive impact on the economy and on the environment that i and everyone's lives as well. and people's— everyone's lives as well. and people's day—to—day lives and their day-to-day— people's day—to—day lives and their day—to—dayjobs and the chaos out there _ day—to—dayjobs and the chaos out there as _ day—to—dayjobs and the chaos out there as a — day—to—dayjobs and the chaos out there as a result of an entirely failed — there as a result of an entirely failed project which is the idea you can entrust— failed project which is the idea you can entrust a central public utilities _ can entrust a central public utilities to the mercies of venture

capitalists, is deeply personal. i mean. _ capitalists, is deeply personal. i mean, people's lives are getting worse _ mean, people's lives are getting worse and — mean, people's lives are getting worse and worse and to see a prime minister. _ worse and worse and to see a prime minister. he — worse and worse and to see a prime minister, he is clearly not in denial— minister, he is clearly not in denial because he obviously knows what's _ denial because he obviously knows what's going on, but absolutely thinking — what's going on, but absolutely thinking that the presentation and eyeballs— thinking that the presentation and eyeballs is what matters, as long as i can eyeballs is what matters, as long as i can get— eyeballs is what matters, as long as i can get my— eyeballs is what matters, as long as i can get my point across that people — i can get my point across that people won't notice. go on a train, that was— people won't notice. go on a train, that was doing a few weeks ago. people _ that was doing a few weeks ago. people can see the fruits of your train journeys around the country tomorrow night on channel 4. so we've heard that the prime minister more or less reckons there is no alternative to jacking up interest rates to cool down the economy, even if it's going to hurt. would labour make a different choice? lisa nandyjoins us from salford. she is the shadow levelling up secretary. good morning. goad secretary. good morning. good morning- _ secretary. good morning. good morning. rishi— secretary. good morning. good morning. rishi sunak _ secretary. good morning. good morning. rishi sunak said - secretary. good morning. good morning. rishi sunak said he . secretary. good morning. good - morning. rishi sunak said he thought the bank of england _ morning. rishi sunak said he thought the bank of england was _ morning. rishi sunak said he thought the bank of england was making - morning. rishi sunak said he thought the bank of england was making the l the bank of england was making the right decision on interest rates. do you agree? it’s right decision on interest rates. do you agree?—

you agree? it's a decision for the bank of england, _ you agree? it's a decision for the bank of england, it's _ you agree? it's a decision for the| bank of england, it's independent for a reason, we've seen what happens when politicians attack our economic institutions... [30 happens when politicians attack our economic institutions. . .— economic institutions... do you think it's the — economic institutions... do you think it's the right _ economic institutions... do you think it's the right decision? . economic institutions... do you think it's the right decision? i l think it's the right decision? i support them in that, it's a decision rightly for the bank of england. what we are calling for is the government to do more to protect people right now from the fallout of the economic decisions. but people right now from the fallout of the economic decisions.— people right now from the fallout of the economic decisions. but in terms ofthe the economic decisions. but in terms of the decision _ the economic decisions. but in terms of the decision of _ the economic decisions. but in terms of the decision of the _ the economic decisions. but in terms of the decision of the bank _ the economic decisions. but in terms of the decision of the bank of - of the decision of the bank of england, you say it's their decision and you support them in that. do you accept that jacking and you support them in that. do you accept thatjacking up rates is going to cause a lot of pain for people? going to cause a lot of pain for --eole? ~ , ~. going to cause a lot of pain for --eole? ~ . going to cause a lot of pain for n-eole?~ ., . , ., ., people? when you make a decision on the economy — people? when you make a decision on the economy it — people? when you make a decision on the economy it has _ people? when you make a decision on the economy it has knock-on - people? when you make a decision on the economy it has knock-on effects, | the economy it has knock—on effects, but that's for the government to take a view of and to act on. what we are asking them to do, especially with the mortgage crisis that's emerged, is to make sure that those measures to provide more flexibility to mortgage payers so they can remain in their homes, so we stave off micro—repossessions and real pain for people right now, is to make sure those measures are mandatory, that they apply to all lenders without fear of affecting

people's credit ratings or fees and liabilities added on on top, otherwise we think there are about 2 million people who won't simply benefit from those changes, so we are asking the government notjust to talk a good game about what they want to see the banks do actually make sure that happens. i5 want to see the banks do actually make sure that happens. is it realistic to _ make sure that happens. is it realistic to expect _ make sure that happens. is it realistic to expect banks, which after all our businesses, to forgive everybody? there is a situation some people would argue that people have borrowed too much, they are in houses they cannot afford. is it realistic for a government to force lenders to do that? this realistic for a government to force lenders to do that?— lenders to do that? this is a long-standing _ lenders to do that? this is a long-standing problem. - lenders to do that? this is a long-standing problem. the lenders to do that? this is a - long-standing problem. the reason long—standing problem. the reason people are filling more pain now than they did in the 90s is because the average buyer was borrowing around three or four times there annual salary in the 1990s to buy a home. now, that's about 11 times annual salary. home. now, that's about 11 times annualsalary. so home. now, that's about 11 times annual salary. so people are feeling the pain to a significant extent in the pain to a significant extent in the way they were not before. but the way they were not before. but the root cause of that is the

failure to build enough homes in this country. we've had various schemes over the last few years that have helped with the fallout of that, the help to buy scheme, for example, which boosted demand but did nothing to boost supply. we've had this enormous shift over the last decade from bricks to benefits, absurdly we now spend ten times more on housing benefit every year than we do on building affordable housing. that's why we say that as well as bringing in real concrete measures to help people right now, the government has got to change course and repair the damage of the last decade. but course and repair the damage of the last decade-— last decade. but in terms of those concrete measures, _ last decade. but in terms of those concrete measures, you _ last decade. but in terms of those concrete measures, you want - last decade. but in terms of those concrete measures, you want the | concrete measures, you want the banks to be, to have to follow mandatory proposals in order to help out people who are struggling, but the lib dems are calling for something additional to that. they are saying there should be £300 grants for people who really can't afford to keep paying, to keep a roof over their head, and as i understand that labour isn't supporting that. why not?

we agree with the government it could fuel inflation because it's untargeted and very expensive and we saw what happened in september last year when the conservative government decided to make a whole range of unfunded commitments that crash the economy and deaf people paying the price but also because lib dems haven't been able to explain how this would reach those most in need and not others, for example second home owners would be covered by their proposals and they don't have any mechanism to prevent that from happening. we think are much more targeted form of support at those who most need it is far more sensible and makes more sense for the economy. more sensible and makes more sense for the economy-— for the economy. there is already some support _ for the economy. there is already some support for _ for the economy. there is already some support for people - for the economy. there is already some support for people who - for the economy. there is already some support for people who are| for the economy. there is already i some support for people who are on benefits who might be having a problem paying but if you don't back lib dems proposals, you agree with the government the bank of england is doing the right thing, actually apart from trying to force the banks to do a bit more basically you're

saying the same thing as a government that interest rates are right to give up, people are going to suffer but actually we can't really step in? i to suffer but actually we can't really step in?— to suffer but actually we can't really step in? i don't accept that at all. really step in? i don't accept that at all- first _ really step in? i don't accept that at all. first of— really step in? i don't accept that at all. first of all— really step in? i don't accept that at all. first of all we _ really step in? i don't accept that at all. first of all we got - really step in? i don't accept that at all. first of all we got on - really step in? i don't accept that at all. first of all we got on the i at all. first of all we got on the front foot and opposed the government ought to be talking to the banks as we have been doing, rachel reeves and i have been speaking to the banks since the week that liz truss and kwasi kwarteng crashed the economy to see what more we could do together to stabilise the situation and get help to people and we found the banks pretty receptive and we are asking the government to make sure this applies to all banks and all lenders not just some by making those proposals mandatory, but most of all, nora, the difference between us and the tories is that we are saying that you got to fix the underlying problems here.— you got to fix the underlying problems here. let's talk about those problems _ problems here. let's talk about those problems then. _ problems here. let's talk about those problems then. which - problems here. let's talk about | those problems then. which mp problems here. let's talk about - those problems then. which mp told a local paper a few years ago i believe it's wrong to consider green belt land for development? that believe it's wrong to consider green belt land for development?- believe it's wrong to consider green belt land for development? that is a selective coat _ belt land for development? that is a selective coat from _ belt land for development? that is a selective coat from a _ belt land for development? that is a selective coat from a letter - belt land for development? that is a selective coat from a letter i - belt land for development? that is a selective coat from a letter i wrote i selective coat from a letter i wrote about development in my constituency. that made clear i

support the house—building programme may cancel has pioneered, in fact they are building more homes and more affordable homes than most places in the country, but i don't support prioritising genuinely green nature rich parts of the green over brownfield land and scrubland and wasteland that is currently classified as green belt and that's why labour is saying that we need to enter the taboo around the green belt, there are large parts of the green belt in this country that aren't green, a disused petrol station in tottenham for example, that was recently turned down for development in the face of a housing crisis and we need to give communities and councils far more control over where housing is built. lots of the real green belt by stealth. . . , lots of the real green belt by stealth. . . . , , stealth. this is interesting because as i understand _ stealth. this is interesting because as i understand that _ stealth. this is interesting because as i understand that your _ stealth. this is interesting because as i understand that your proposal| as i understand that your proposal now was to allow what are called combined authorities to declassify green belt land like the example you just mentioned there. a combined authority for our viewers is a group

of local councils, some people say it's a mega counsel, so when local people have a veto because you and i have talked lots of times on this programme about how much you want to give power away but actually you're doing this decision to a mega group of councils so would local people have a veto?— of councils so would local people have a veto? we'll do better than that, we have a veto? we'll do better than that. we are _ have a veto? we'll do better than that, we are going _ have a veto? we'll do better than that, we are going to _ have a veto? we'll do better than that, we are going to write - have a veto? we'll do better than that, we are going to write it - have a veto? we'll do better than that, we are going to write it into| that, we are going to write it into law as part of our first flagship piece of legislation, the take back control act, that councils must be involved from the outset in developing these plans and what we've got at the moment is a conservative government that decided over the lowest level of house—building in a generation with a 17 billion hit to the economy and a 17 billion hit to the economy and a major impact on how cells up and down the country. they've been declassifying parts of the green belt by stealth, every year for the last decade. they are the nature rich parts of the green belt that local people love and enjoy because they are more lucrative for

development and people have been cut out of a conversation. i development and people have been cut out of a conversation.— out of a conversation. i want you to be specific — out of a conversation. i want you to be specific about _ out of a conversation. i want you to be specific about this. _ out of a conversation. i want you to be specific about this. who - out of a conversation. i want you to be specific about this. who will - be specific about this. who will actually have the final say? the mega council group of combined authorities or one at the people at authorities or one at the people at a much smaller local level because a combined authority like greater manchester is huge, an area of millions of people. i manchester is huge, an area of millions of people.— millions of people. i live in greater manchester - millions of people. i live in greater manchester and i millions of people. i live in | greater manchester and the millions of people. i live in - greater manchester and the process we follow here is that councils consult their own communities and that the plan is then developed by council leaders. 50 that the plan is then developed by council leaders.— council leaders. so that's not a veto? a consultation _ council leaders. so that's not a veto? a consultation where - veto? a consultation where politicians consult about what they want to do and i hope people agree but that's different to a veto. it’s but that's different to a veto. it's also but that's different to a veto. it�*s also different to putting communities in the driving seat of what gets built and where. we will retain the right of communities to object to planning decisions in their area but we will do two things as well, first as we will involve a mandate combined authorities to consult at a much earlier stage so that they are actually showing

evidence of how people have made those decisions themselves and not just have them handed to them by people in the town hall. we think that's one way in which you get the right sort of housing built in the right sort of housing built in the right places with community consent and end this ongoing war that happens after the event, and secondly, we will allow combined authorities to set up development corporations to take charge of the land and reform cpo powers, compulsory purchase powers, so that land is purchased at market rate and not at inflated rates as it currently is.— not at inflated rates as it currently is. not at inflated rates as it currentl is. ., , .. currently is. ok, lisa, lots of “aruon currently is. ok, lisa, lots of jargon in _ currently is. ok, lisa, lots of jargon in there _ currently is. ok, lisa, lots of jargon in there but _ currently is. ok, lisa, lots of jargon in there but these - currently is. ok, lisa, lots of jargon in there but these are | currently is. ok, lisa, lots of. jargon in there but these are the things that really people care about in their communities, what gets built where and we know it's going to be an issue in the next general election and maybe also in the four by—election which are coming all of labour candidates are white men so does that bother you briefly? it certainly does, diversity and politics matters, and as someone who stood on an all woman short list, and the reason they mattered and

labour mattered pioneered them is because it change the perception of what a member of parliament look like and i'm very committed to making sure we can't use short list of the labour party now but i'm committed to making sure we continue that diversity and particularly at local level. we are going to hand powers back to communities and local leaders have to look like the people they represent. leaders have to look like the people they represent-— leaders have to look like the people they represent. thank you very much. i know they represent. thank you very much. i know from — they represent. thank you very much. i know from time _ they represent. thank you very much. i know from time to _ they represent. thank you very much. i know from time to time _ they represent. thank you very much. i know from time to time you've - they represent. thank you very much. i know from time to time you've been | i know from time to time you've been to labour conferences and have donated to the party at times. what donated to the party at times. what do you make of it now? are you impressed with what labour is putting on a table now? we've been out of power — putting on a table now? we've been out of power for _ putting on a table now? we've been out of power for so _ putting on a table now? we've been out of power for so long, _ putting on a table now? we've been out of power for so long, but - putting on a table now? we've been out of power for so long, but it's - out of power for so long, but it's difficult — out of power for so long, but it's difficult to — out of power for so long, but it's difficult to really sort of see a world — difficult to really sort of see a world that isn't controlled by chaos. — world that isn't controlled by chaos, but i think they are attempting to present a long—term policy— attempting to present a long—term policy in _ attempting to present a long—term policy in terms of economic and environmental integrated forward—thinking policy. i have great — forward—thinking policy. i have great hopes. the truth of the matter is i great hopes. the truth of the matter is i think— great hopes. the truth of the matter is i think most people will vote this election about the government

that's— this election about the government that's in_ this election about the government that's in and they will choose an alternative. i would that's in and they will choose an alternative. iwould recommend that's in and they will choose an alternative. i would recommend they did. ., ., did. how would you describe the state of support _ did. how would you describe the state of support for _ did. how would you describe the state of support for labour? - did. how would you describe the state of support for labour? the tories have been behind in the polls are significantly for a long time but where is the public at? what are significantly for a long time but where is the public at? what we basically had _ but where is the public at? what we basically had since _ but where is the public at? what we basically had since partygate - but where is the public at? what we basically had since partygate in - basically had since partygate in focus _ basically had since partygate in focus groups _ basically had since partygate in focus groups and _ basically had since partygate in focus groups and in— basically had since partygate in focus groups and in the - basically had since partygate in| focus groups and in the polling, we've _ focus groups and in the polling, we've fallen _ focus groups and in the polling, we've fallen out _ focus groups and in the polling, we've fallen out of _ focus groups and in the polling, we've fallen out of love - focus groups and in the polling, we've fallen out of love with - focus groups and in the polling, | we've fallen out of love with the conservatives, _ we've fallen out of love with the conservatives, they _ we've fallen out of love with the conservatives, they are - we've fallen out of love with the conservatives, they are done, . conservatives, they are done, there's— conservatives, they are done, there's been— conservatives, they are done, there's been too _ conservatives, they are done, there's been too much - conservatives, they are done, there's been too much chaos, i conservatives, they are done, - there's been too much chaos, the economy— there's been too much chaos, the economy is— there's been too much chaos, the economy is bad. _ there's been too much chaos, the economy is bad, and _ there's been too much chaos, the economy is bad, and we're - there's been too much chaos, the economy is bad, and we're going| there's been too much chaos, the i economy is bad, and we're going to vote labour. — economy is bad, and we're going to vote labour, but— economy is bad, and we're going to vote labour, but kind _ economy is bad, and we're going to vote labour, but kind of— economy is bad, and we're going to vote labour, but kind of reluctantlyi vote labour, but kind of reluctantly by default — vote labour, but kind of reluctantly by default because _ vote labour, but kind of reluctantly by default because what _ vote labour, but kind of reluctantly by default because what they - vote labour, but kind of reluctantly. by default because what they haven't heard _ by default because what they haven't heard from _ by default because what they haven't heard from keir— by default because what they haven't heard from keir starmer— by default because what they haven't heard from keir starmer and - by default because what they haven't heard from keir starmer and his - heard from keir starmer and his frontbenchers, _ heard from keir starmer and his frontbenchers, what— heard from keir starmer and his frontbenchers, what are - heard from keir starmer and his frontbenchers, what are the - heard from keir starmer and his - frontbenchers, what are the tangible things— frontbenchers, what are the tangible things you _ frontbenchers, what are the tangible things you would _ frontbenchers, what are the tangible things you would do _ frontbenchers, what are the tangible things you would do differently - frontbenchers, what are the tangible things you would do differently to i things you would do differently to make _ things you would do differently to make things _ things you would do differently to make things better? _ things you would do differently to make things better?— things you would do differently to make things better? that's not clear et? make things better? that's not clear yet? housing _ make things better? that's not clear yet? housing policy _ make things better? that's not clear yet? housing policy is _ make things better? that's not clear yet? housing policy is the _ make things better? that's not clear yet? housing policy is the first - yet? housing policy is the first time actually _ yet? housing policy is the first time actually we've _ yet? housing policy is the first time actually we've seen - yet? housing policy is the first time actually we've seen a - yet? housing policy is the first| time actually we've seen a real proper— time actually we've seen a real proper dividing _ time actually we've seen a real proper dividing line _ time actually we've seen a real proper dividing line with - time actually we've seen a real proper dividing line with the i time actually we've seen a real i proper dividing line with the tories and they— proper dividing line with the tories and they are — proper dividing line with the tories and they are starting _ proper dividing line with the tories and they are starting to _ proper dividing line with the tories and they are starting to get - proper dividing line with the tories and they are starting to get credit. i and they are starting to get credit. keir starmer— and they are starting to get credit. keir starmer has— and they are starting to get credit. keir starmer has got _ and they are starting to get credit. keir starmer has got ideas - and they are starting to get credit. keir starmer has got ideas and i and they are starting to get credit. keir starmer has got ideas and is i keir starmer has got ideas and is willing _ keir starmer has got ideas and is willing to — keir starmer has got ideas and is willing to be _ keir starmer has got ideas and is willing to be bold _ keir starmer has got ideas and is willing to be bold and _ keir starmer has got ideas and is willing to be bold and i— keir starmer has got ideas and is willing to be bold and i think- keir starmer has got ideas and is| willing to be bold and i think they need _ willing to be bold and i think they need more — willing to be bold and i think they need more of— willing to be bold and i think they need more of that _ willing to be bold and i think they need more of that to _ willing to be bold and i think they need more of that to seal - willing to be bold and i think they need more of that to seal the i willing to be bold and i think they. need more of that to seal the deal. it's always— need more of that to seal the deal. it's always the _ need more of that to seal the deal. it's always the same _ need more of that to seal the deal. it's always the same can _ need more of that to seal the deal. it's always the same can anyone i need more of that to seal the deal. it's always the same can anyone in| it's always the same can anyone in opposition— it's always the same can anyone in opposition as always, they are untested, _ opposition as always, they are untested, the same goes for the

conservatives when david cameron was trying _ conservatives when david cameron was trying to _ conservatives when david cameron was trying to have a go at gordon brown, he has _ trying to have a go at gordon brown, he has no _ trying to have a go at gordon brown, he has no experience, who are you? being _ he has no experience, who are you? being in_ he has no experience, who are you? being in opposition is very, very hard _ being in opposition is very, very hard and — being in opposition is very, very hard and proving yourself before you .et hard and proving yourself before you get the _ hard and proving yourself before you get the chance is even harder but the current— get the chance is even harder but the current prime minister had the chance _ the current prime minister had the chance to — the current prime minister had the chance to prove himself because he was a _ chance to prove himself because he was a sehior— chance to prove himself because he was a senior cabinet minister in a very— was a senior cabinet minister in a very powerful government. keir starmer— very powerful government. keir starmer is _ very powerful government. keir starmer is about to get the chance to prove _ starmer is about to get the chance to prove himself. he starmer is about to get the chance to prove himself.— starmer is about to get the chance to prove himself. he hopes. briefly, ou know to prove himself. he hopes. briefly, you know the _ to prove himself. he hopes. briefly, you know the conservative - to prove himself. he hopes. briefly, you know the conservative party - you know the conservative party well. is it too early? the election could be miles off and is a danger for labour they think the tories are done and it's finished and we can take it for granted because they can turnit take it for granted because they can turn it around, could they? it’s turn it around, could they? it's auoin to turn it around, could they? it's going to be — turn it around, could they? it's going to be very hard to turn it around~ — going to be very hard to turn it around~ we _ going to be very hard to turn it around. we are _ going to be very hard to turn it around. we are not _ going to be very hard to turn it around. we are not in- going to be very hard to turn it around. we are not in the - going to be very hard to turn it. around. we are not in the run—up going to be very hard to turn it- around. we are not in the run—up to 1992— around. we are not in the run—up to 1992 situation — around. we are not in the run—up to 1992 situation at— around. we are not in the run—up to 1992 situation at the _ around. we are not in the run—up to 1992 situation at the moment, - around. we are not in the run—up toi 1992 situation at the moment, things are far— 1992 situation at the moment, things are far worse. — 1992 situation at the moment, things are far worse, but _ 1992 situation at the moment, things are far worse, but there _ 1992 situation at the moment, things are far worse, but there is— 1992 situation at the moment, things are far worse, but there is a - 1992 situation at the moment, things are far worse, but there is a chance i are far worse, but there is a chance the electorate — are far worse, but there is a chance the electorate is _ are far worse, but there is a chance the electorate is very— are far worse, but there is a chance the electorate is very volatile. - the electorate is very volatile. only— the electorate is very volatile. only three _ the electorate is very volatile. only three years _ the electorate is very volatile. only three years ago - the electorate is very volatile. only three years ago the - the electorate is very volatile. i only three years ago the tories the electorate is very volatile. - only three years ago the tories won 55% and _ only three years ago the tories won 55% and now— only three years ago the tories won 55% and now they— only three years ago the tories won 55% and now they are _ only three years ago the tories won 55% and now they are on _ only three years ago the tories won 55% and now they are on 22%. - only three years ago the tories won 55% and now they are on 22%. marina, auoin back 55% and now they are on 22%. marina, going back to — 55% and now they are on 22%. marina, going back to russia, _ 55% and now they are on 22%. marina, going back to russia, have _ 55% and now they are on 22%. marina, going back to russia, have you - 55% and now they are on 22%. marina, going back to russia, have you been i

going back to russia, have you been able to speak to friends there, contact there? and how are they? are they able to even tell you what's going on? it’s they able to even tell you what's auoin on? �* . , . they able to even tell you what's uaoinon? v , , ., going on? it's very interesting how for the last — going on? it's very interesting how for the last year, _ going on? it's very interesting how for the last year, many _ for the last year, many communications have been cut and i don't know because people started to be afraid to talk to the uk, and be nervous, i'mjust be afraid to talk to the uk, and be nervous, i'm just afraid to talk about this. but somebody who i am talking to became increasingly frustrated when i tried to mention your life is not as good as before or you have a problem. they immediately became a little bit aggressive to talk about it, even not to mention war in ukraine. this is a situation which shows to me people in russia are like hostages. they may be understand what is happening, but afraid to talk about it. forwhat happening, but afraid to talk about it. for what happened just now, to understand putin doesn't give them stability at all. ma understand putin doesn't give them stability at all.— stability at all. 0k, what a pressure _ stability at all. 0k, what a pressure to _ stability at all. 0k, what a pressure to live _ stability at all. 0k, what a pressure to live under. - stability at all. 0k, what a| pressure to live under. it's stability at all. 0k, what a - pressure to live under. it's been wonderful to have your medicine seen a studio on a big weekend. thank you

all very much indeed. we aren't ashamed to talk about the hard stuff, but we're also not ashamed on a sunday to say that all work and no play doesn't make for a fun day. and more than 200,000 people have been at the glastonbury festival this weekend. many millions more have been watching it on the box. but there is one �*805 icon for whom it was all new. rick astley — pop star and meme — was finally granted the permission to take the stage in somerset. so what was it like? absolutely amazing. it's very hard to put into words. i'm sure everybody says that who comes off that stage. it's amazing. that is possibly the loveliest crowd, and i'm going to use the word loveliest crowd, i have ever played in front of in my life. they were so generous. so loving. so amazing. yeah, just a great experience. in all your years, that was the loveliest crowd? yeah, i'd have to say so. i mean, obviously they are open for everything. obviously if i play in front of an audience that came to see me that's a very different feeling as well. it's a beautiful emotion but it's different. if you go in front of a festival crowd and they're up for it in the way that they were, that's pretty special, man. that's what everybody wants at a festival,

a bit of a hug from each other, and that's what ijust got, a massive hug. you sound like you are quite moved? well, of course i'm moved by it. how can you go in front of that many people and sing songs that have been around, some of those songs have been around in my life, part of my dna, for 30 odd years, and that's, i don't want to say a culmination because i want to keep doing it for a few more years, but that's kind of like a definite highlight. listen, there is the legend that is glastonbury and i'm living the legend right now so it's pretty amazing. i've never actually been to glastonbury. i've dropped my daughter off here a bunch of times and i've never actually been in through the gates. i'll definitely be here next year, that's for sure. i don't need to play. i'lljust come and hang out, i think. you joked before you were never cool. are you cool now? as big and as amazing as glastonbury is, it still ain't going to make me cool. that ain't happening. that's ok. i don't mind not being cool. i'm loving every minute right now.

i always wanted to be cool, never was, never will be, that's ok. i've got a lot of other things in my life other than being cool, so i'll take them. i think he is pretty cool but then again maybe i'm properly not somebody who talks about politics very much. thank you to rick, and to marina litvinenko, to ben elton and luke too, and to all of you for your company on this busy morning. we started by asking how is rishi sunak getting on? well, he certainly can't control what's going on in russia, and we don't seem to have very much control over our cameras here this morning either. rishi sunak has big problems in the nhs and also other things. as ever, head to iplayer for anything you missed and i will look forward to seeing you right here, same time, same place, next week. goodbye.

authorities say some road live from london. this is bbc news wagner boss yvegeny prighozhin leaves for belarus and the kremlin says he will face no charges for his mutiny. gunfire. the wagner troops leave too — and will not face prosecution —

bringing an end to an historic day meanwhile, the russian you are watching bbc news. good