putting an m priozhin, one putting an priozhin, one autocrat and — putting an prigozhin, one autocrat and a fascist mercenary leader, is about energy prices, cost of living, your shopping basket, all futures, is about moscow but about your time as well. putin, maybe we should be careful what we wish for. getting a bit ahead of ourselves, who knows? in terms of ruthless murdering tyrants a think on this occasion many are saying our enemy's enemy is our enemy. we will talk about what will happen and what this will mean for the war in ukraine. i'll have experts here — they can answer your questions — and i want to hearfrom you — how do you feel about the events of the past few days? get in touch.

now for the news. a bbc investigation has led to the identification of a new suspect in the stephen lawrence murder case. he's been publicly named for the first time as matthew white — who died two years ago. the investigation found the met police seriously mishandled key evidence relating to him. scotland yard has apologised for how it handled the case. russia's defence minister has appeared in public for the first time since the uprising by wagner mercenaries. sergei shoigu has been pictured in state media — visiting troops on the frontline in ukraine. wagner's leader, yevgeny prigozhin, had demanded his removal — when he ordered troops to advance on moscow. a woman — whose husband and son died in a submersible which imploded in the atlantic — says she was supposed

to be on board. christine dawood gave her place — on what was meant to be a tour of the titanic wreck — to her 19 year old son, suleman. and a study has found that people in the uk are less likely to survive treatable conditions — like breast cancer and stroke — than those in other rich countries. the review — by the king's fund think tank — said the problem might be directly linked to nhs performance. the government says it's investing in services. watching the text console very closely, tells what you think about the extraordinary events of the weekend and what you think it may mean for all of those, central to all our futures. mean for all of those, central to all ourfutures. get in mean for all of those, central to all our futures. get in touch. mean for all of those, central to all ourfutures. get in touch. tell us where you're from and put your name at the of the text. let's hear

from ukrainians, russians, brits. we got a leading historian on russia. good morning. and the deputy director at chatham house. well, patricia, what did you make of it? it was a roller—coaster of events that in the end lead to something that in the end lead to something that we are not quite sure what it means, so, it is still yet to play out i'd say. we don't know yet the role of belarus, we do not yet know what will happen to all the waggoner fighters, we don't know what steps president putin will be taking this week —— wagnerfighters, president putin will be taking this week —— wagner fighters, what steps presentation will be taking to perhaps exact some revenge because clearly prigozhin was expecting some more support in moscow. this is my

sense of it, anyway, that he would have been expecting some support, obvious i got a lot of support from the russian army on the way but whatever was happening in moscow was not happening for him.— not happening for him. president putin does not _ not happening for him. president putin does not like _ not happening for him. president putin does not like news - not happening for him. president putin does not like news across l not happening for him. president - putin does not like news across him, prigozhin would be well advised to watch his back.— prigozhin would be well advised to watch his back. indeed he would, i would not drink— watch his back. indeed he would, i would not drink any _ watch his back. indeed he would, i would not drink any tier— watch his back. indeed he would, i would not drink any tier stand - watch his back. indeed he would, i l would not drink any tier stand near an open window if i were him. anthony, you wrote this book revolution and civil war, are we heading towards the situation? you know the phrase so and so as to the right of attila the hun, a lot of these people are to the right of vladimir putin, aren't they? the? vladimir putin, aren't they? they are indeed. _ vladimir putin, aren't they? they are indeed, prigozhin, _ vladimir putin, aren't they? they are indeed, prigozhin, a - vladimir putin, aren't they? they are indeed, prigozhin, a lot of the people _ are indeed, prigozhin, a lot of the people surrounding him are certainly not liberal_ people surrounding him are certainly not liberal in any sense of the term — not liberal in any sense of the term. what is intriguing is the way that vladimir putin, to defend his

position. — that vladimir putin, to defend his position, has created several different _ position, has created several different organisations because he beiieves— different organisations because he believes in divide and rule. interestingly, just over a week ago, one was_ interestingly, just over a week ago, one was starting to hear rumours that actually the reason why he was a leading _ that actually the reason why he was a leading promotion to get we were so much _ a leading promotion to get we were so much as— a leading promotion to get we were so much as that secretly prigozhin was going — so much as that secretly prigozhin was going to be his enforcer. that has proved — was going to be his enforcer. that has proved to be rather untrue in the circumstances of what we've seen of the _ the circumstances of what we've seen of the last _ the circumstances of what we've seen of the last dramatic two days. so, it is impossible to predict the future, — it is impossible to predict the future, except to say that fridge and we — future, except to say that fridge and we are seeing perhaps the end and we are seeing perhaps the end and even— and we are seeing perhaps the end and even though he has been in power now since _ and even though he has been in power now since 2000, the year 2000, we are probably seeing the start of the end of— are probably seeing the start of the end of his _ are probably seeing the start of the end of his rule.— end of his rule. what about the psychological — end of his rule. what about the psychological effect _ end of his rule. what about the psychological effect of - end of his rule. what about the psychological effect of all - end of his rule. what about the psychological effect of all of. end of his rule. what about the | psychological effect of all of this on vladimir putin? this might

increase his already high octane paranoia but strengthen his resolve by that process as well.— by that process as well. well, i think it's more _ by that process as well. well, i think it's more dangerous - by that process as well. well, i think it's more dangerous at i by that process as well. well, i | think it's more dangerous at the moment, — think it's more dangerous at the moment, it's true, because a cornered _ moment, it's true, because a cornered animal like putin in this particular— cornered animal like putin in this particular case is likely to be more dangerous— particular case is likely to be more dangerous and unpredictable, purely because _ dangerous and unpredictable, purely because they feel they've got nothing — because they feel they've got nothing to lose. except perhaps a life in _ nothing to lose. except perhaps a life in reasonable luxury in excel or whatever it might be that he is prepared — or whatever it might be that he is prepared for. even so, he does not want _ prepared for. even so, he does not want to— prepared for. even so, he does not want to go— prepared for. even so, he does not want to go out in this particular way, _ want to go out in this particular way, that— want to go out in this particular way, that is certainly true, so things— way, that is certainly true, so things could be more dangerous. do things could be more dangerous. dir: you things could be more dangerous. you think, things could be more dangerous. dir? you think, patricia, that things could be more dangerous. dr? you think, patricia, that we are seeing cracks in the regime? yes. you think, patricia, that we are seeing cracks in the regime? yes, we are, seeing cracks in the regime? yes, we are. definitely- _ seeing cracks in the regime? yes, we are, definitely. as _ seeing cracks in the regime? yes, we are, definitely. as anthony _ seeing cracks in the regime? yes, we are, definitely. as anthony has - are, definitely. as anthony has said, we have a situation in which we have a lot of fragmentation within the armed forces, that's

clear from the whole process of the march of moscow. we are seeing a lot of debate at the moment in the academic circles, the think tank circles, people call them that in moscow, about the use of nuclear weapons and whether or not they should be a demonstration shot. we've seen the real threat... wait should be a demonstration shot. we've seen the real threat. .. wait a minute- -- — we've seen the real threat. .. wait a minute... wait _ we've seen the real threat. .. wait a minute... wait a _ we've seen the real threat. .. wait a minute... wait a minute, _ we've seen the real threat. .. wait a minute... wait a minute, wait - we've seen the real threat. .. wait a minute... wait a minute, wait a - minute... waita minute, waita minute, waita minute... can ijust whined you back to that one? whether there should be a demonstration shot, demonstration shot on a monday morning. let's take that one slowly. about a week or more ago, about ten days ago, the started to bubble up in the intelligentsia circles in russia, calling again for the idea of thinking about using nuclear weapons and the idea that was put forward was for there to be a demonstration shot, the use of a

small, relatively speaking, still huge i have to say, nuclear weapon explosion to demonstrate the reality of it, what through zapping et excited out, any rural area perhaps, butjust excited out, any rural area perhaps, but just to show resolve excited out, any rural area perhaps, butjust to show resolve and also, this was the main point about, to signal the seriousness of what russia is trying to do in ukraine and to tell all of the western countries to back of supporting ukraine, this was the idea. i have to say, there were some supporters of that in these circles, the academic circles, but also a lot of pushback along the lines of are you bonkers? ! you have no ideas where this will lead imagine x, y, and z will happen, so it was to see discussion but it keeps on coming up. i think this is the worry that we have, that people keep on talking about this. obviously trying to induce fear in western populations, which does not seem to be happening. but we have to factor in that

possibility. i think it is improbable, but it is possible. given that it is kind of the devil you know and there is a good few other devils lurking on his right, are we better off with putin? fire are we better off with putin? are ou are we better off with putin? are you asking _ are we better off with putin? are you asking me — are we better off with putin? site: you asking me that? are we better off with putin? are you asking me that? i _ are we better off with putin? are you asking me that? i was - are we better off with putin? are - you asking me that? i was imprecise, cruiverin you asking me that? i was imprecise, quivering as — you asking me that? i was imprecise, quivering as l — you asking me that? i was imprecise, quivering as i asked _ you asking me that? i was imprecise, quivering as i asked the _ you asking me that? i was imprecise, quivering as i asked the question. - you asking me that? i was imprecise, quivering as i asked the question. i l quivering as i asked the question. i don't blame you, quite a quiver to think— don't blame you, quite a quiver to think about — don't blame you, quite a quiver to think about. i'm not quite as concerned _ think about. i'm not quite as concerned about it perhaps has patricia — concerned about it perhaps has patricia because of the china angle, there _ patricia because of the china angle, there is— patricia because of the china angle, there is no— patricia because of the china angle, there is no way that the president of china _ there is no way that the president of china would ever allow that and we have _ of china would ever allow that and we have two remember that putin's position. _ we have two remember that putin's position, even being weak and just in the _ position, even being weak and just in the last— position, even being weak and just in the last 48 hours has never been strong _ in the last 48 hours has never been strong vis—a—vis china. he knows perfectly— strong vis—a—vis china. he knows perfectly well that he has to have

that sort — perfectly well that he has to have that sort of backing and support. from _ that sort of backing and support. from that — that sort of backing and support. from that point of view, i'm not quite _ from that point of view, i'm not quite so — from that point of view, i'm not quite so concerned, but it doesn't necessarily— quite so concerned, but it doesn't necessarily mean that even a so-called _ necessarily mean that even a so—called tactical nuclear explosion would _ so—called tactical nuclear explosion would automatically lead to armageddon, because for the simple reason, _ armageddon, because for the simple reason, the _ armageddon, because for the simple reason, the west knows the situation comedy— reason, the west knows the situation comedy west knows that they might well fire _ comedy west knows that they might well fire a _ comedy west knows that they might well fire a weapon like that, and it will not _ well fire a weapon like that, and it will not necessarily lead to huge numbers— will not necessarily lead to huge numbers of casualties, it would probably— numbers of casualties, it would probably be in a fairly open area, by the _ probably be in a fairly open area, by the same time, a question of how the us— by the same time, a question of how the us responds and this is being discussed — the us responds and this is being discussed in great detail. it could be done — discussed in great detail. it could be done by knocking out the whole of the black— be done by knocking out the whole of the black sea fleet or something like that— the black sea fleet or something like that to show that the west as serious _ like that to show that the west as serious as— like that to show that the west as serious as well. i think these things— serious as well. i think these things are _ serious as well. i think these things are carefully calibrated by the same — things are carefully calibrated by the same time, let's face it, there is always—

the same time, let's face it, there is always the great risk of major niistakes — is always the great risk of major mistakes taking over, the key element — mistakes taking over, the key element in this i think you will find will— element in this i think you will find will be china. in element in this i think you will find will be china.— element in this i think you will find will be china. in case you were immersed in _ find will be china. in case you were immersed in glastonbury _ find will be china. in case you were immersed in glastonbury over- find will be china. in case you were immersed in glastonbury over the l immersed in glastonbury over the weekend, i know a few of you wear, some incredible stuff there, what actually happened? here is a text. can you please start your programme... by explaining, so you all know what you're talking about, numbers everyone understands. that's a good text we have there. look, guardian journalist in kyiv. a good text we have there. look, guardianjournalist in kyiv. can a good text we have there. look, guardian journalist in kyiv. can you hear me ok? hi. i will throw this hear me 0k? hi. i will throw this one to hear me ok? h. i will throw this one to you. what happened over the weekend? i one to you. what happened over the weekend? ~ .

one to you. what happened over the weekend? ,, . ., , , ., , weekend? i think what happened was priuozhin, weekend? i think what happened was prigozhin. this _ weekend? i think what happened was prigozhin, this great _ weekend? i think what happened was prigozhin, this great pretender, - prigozhin, this great pretender, this great blabbermouth was afraid that he was losing influence and power that his mercenary unit maxi was being marginalised, that his quys was being marginalised, that his guys were being forced to sign contracts with russia's ministry of defence and he rolled the dice, this astonishing thing, he invaded russia effectively seizing areas, trundled, sent his guys towards moscow and then back down after securing some kind of deal with vladimir putin. we don't know where prigozhin is, we don't know where prigozhin is, we don't know where prigozhin is, we don't know the nature of the deal beyond prigozhin supposedly going off to belarus, but what we do know is this was really a very dangerous moment for putin. for now he is still president, for now the machinery of the state continues, but i agree with anthony, i think there are grave questions about how long putin can continue and i do

think if this is a shakespeare drama, we are into act five, and they are going to be more bodies on they are going to be more bodies on the stage in the weeks and months to come. , ., ., ,., the stage in the weeks and months to come. , ., ., ., ., come. the question about how long priuozhin come. the question about how long prigozhin can _ come. the question about how long prigozhin can survive _ come. the question about how long prigozhin can survive as _ come. the question about how long prigozhin can survive as an - prigozhin can survive as an interesting one. i don't think that putin and prigozhin can coexist. actually, in the long term. the longer that prigozhin is there, the more he becomes the symbol of putin plus my cumulation and failure and you have to look at some of the video footage we saw on saturday night when prigozhin left, he was being cheered by ordinary russians in the street, crying out wagner, wagner! wanting selfies with them. there is something slightly rock star about it, the kind of attention putin has not had for a long time because he spent... well, he spent a lot of time in his bunker, very worried about security and i think

prigozhin is a threat to the regime and i suspect they will be thinking of ways to get rid of him. there is a renewed sense of agitation amongst russian hardliners, it would seem. i'vejust seen a quote from a former fsb i guess kgb officer, who helped coordinate pro—russian militias in eastern ukraine. he was at this meeting in the club of angry patriots and he gave a speech saying that vladimir putin and other representatives of the elite do not demonstrate an understanding that the war must be fought to vek today. can you explain that? they don't think it is being conducted properly —— victor a. think it is being conducted properly -- victor a-— -- victor a. this is one of the big ironies of — -- victor a. this is one of the big ironies of the _ -- victor a. this is one of the big ironies of the situation, - -- victor a. this is one of the big ironies of the situation, more - -- victor a. this is one of the big l ironies of the situation, more than two decades vladimir putin has ruthlessly crush what you might call

the liberal opposition, jailed the opposition leader who challenged them, effectively made about a million russians free since his full—scale invasion last year and people are unhappy with the progress of the war, but the greatest threat to his regime is from the ultranationalist right, from these patriots, she called them, people think the war in ukraine should be prosecuted more brutally and vigorously and i'm talking to you from kyiv, spent the last year and a half year, the award is extremely brittle, indeed, there is a 600 mile front ukrainian civilians are killed every day, you can hear the boom from explosions and artillery whenever you get near it, you have kyiv being hit every night by hypersonic missiles, but these patriots want more, they want more resources, they want more aggression, they want more mobilise

soldiers, and they turn out to be a great dangerfor vladimir soldiers, and they turn out to be a great danger for vladimir putin. it's almost as though he has created this monster, the supranational sponsor, the monster is now trying to eat him. we'll have to see but the bottom line is the water is not going well for putin, he wanted to take the whole country, to seize kyiv, that's been a failure in what we are seeing on the ground in the last 24 hours as ukraine doing a bit kind of counteroffensive and trying to win back territory and i think momentum is now with ukraine. russia is looking increasingly weak and divided. . ., , divided. vladimir putin may feel he needs to feed _ divided. vladimir putin may feel he needs to feed the _ divided. vladimir putin may feel he needs to feed the monster - divided. vladimir putin may feel he needs to feed the monster so - divided. vladimir putin may feel he needs to feed the monster so that| needs to feed the monster so that may end up manifesting itself in an even more brutal conflict, even bloodier. paul, what would you like to say? bloodier. paul, what would you like to sa ? ., bloodier. paul, what would you like tosa? ., , ., , to say? good morning. the previous erson to say? good morning. the previous

person that — to say? good morning. the previous person that was _ to say? good morning. the previous person that was talking _ to say? good morning. the previous person that was talking has - to say? good morning. the previous person that was talking has pretty . person that was talking has pretty much said what i want to say, i think this is a textbook reaction on the part of any dictator, and that is that any potential challenge to his authority he will get rid of, and as i said to one of your colleagues commonly thought that occurred to me after this tobacco of less than 24 hours is that the contests between hitler and... the brownshirts. 4 million of them, integrated them into the german army and that was the end of a defector, and that was the end of a defector, and that was the end of a defector, and that is what has happened here with the leader of the wagner army.

people watching and listening to all the reports and everything, what they are underestimating is the... vladimir putin's intentions, and he won't give up until he gets ukraine totally, and he is prepared to do anything, and along the way that means anybody else. you anything, and along the way that means anybody else.— anything, and along the way that means anybody else. you make a point about the patterns _ means anybody else. you make a point about the patterns of _ means anybody else. you make a point about the patterns of history, - means anybody else. you make a point about the patterns of history, an - about the patterns of history, an excellent one, and before we lose anthony, he has to go any moment, esteemed historian, you will know this, a point well made there by paul, department of history, we see the patterns of history because the patterns of history are a manifestation of the dark aspects of the human condition. we've seen it before, haven't we?— the human condition. we've seen it before, haven't we? yes, and when one talks about _ before, haven't we? yes, and when one talks about the _ before, haven't we? yes, and when one talks about the repetition - before, haven't we? yes, and when one talks about the repetition and l one talks about the repetition and all the _

one talks about the repetition and all the rest of it, we have to be very— all the rest of it, we have to be very careful, because also often we try to _ very careful, because also often we try to think— very careful, because also often we try to think we can predict the future — try to think we can predict the future by— try to think we can predict the future by what has happened in the past _ future by what has happened in the past yes. — future by what has happened in the past. yes, there are some sort of striking _ past. yes, there are some sort of striking parallels, is an interesting point about comparing prigozhin — interesting point about comparing prigozhin to the essay and brownshirts and all the rest of the but we _ brownshirts and all the rest of the but we can— brownshirts and all the rest of the but we can certainly learn from the past but _ but we can certainly learn from the past but we've got to be very careful— past but we've got to be very careful to _ past but we've got to be very careful to realise is not actually going _ careful to realise is not actually going to — careful to realise is not actually going to tells how the future is going — going to tells how the future is going to — going to tells how the future is going to work out. and certainly in russia _ going to work out. and certainly in russia at— going to work out. and certainly in russia at the moment with the ukraine — russia at the moment with the ukraine war, we are in a position where _ ukraine war, we are in a position where it— ukraine war, we are in a position where it is— ukraine war, we are in a position where it is almost impossible to see how consequences are going to work out, sort _ how consequences are going to work out, sort of— how consequences are going to work out, sort of like a pinball machine, the ball— out, sort of like a pinball machine, the ball bounces off a totally unexpected directions and we cannot see, really. — unexpected directions and we cannot see, really, orwork out unexpected directions and we cannot see, really, or work out what the end result — see, really, or work out what the end result is _ see, really, or work out what the end result is going to be. there is

a certain— end result is going to be. there is a certain menu one can come up with of different _ a certain menu one can come up with of different possibilities, but at the same — of different possibilities, but at the same time, one has to be very careful— the same time, one has to be very careful of— the same time, one has to be very careful of assuming that we can actually — careful of assuming that we can actually work it out. we always get it wrong, _ actually work it out. we always get it wrong, and above all, we always -et it wrong, and above all, we always get dictator— it wrong, and above all, we always get dictator syndrome wrong, we fail to understand exactly how the mind of a dictator works because they don't _ of a dictator works because they don't often work according to their own self— don't often work according to their own self interest. this is the problem _ own self interest. this is the problem. and we got it wrong about hitler. _ problem. and we got it wrong about hitler. we _ problem. and we got it wrong about hitler, we got wrong about putin invading — hitler, we got wrong about putin invading ukraine and wanting to have another— invading ukraine and wanting to have another war— invading ukraine and wanting to have anotherwar in invading ukraine and wanting to have another war in europe on the eurasian— another war in europe on the eurasian landmass, so we have got to be very— eurasian landmass, so we have got to be very careful about looking forwards _ be very careful about looking forwards but be ready for almost anything — forwards but be ready for almost anything that could come out of this _ anything that could come out of this. ., , . ., anything that could come out of this. . ,. ., ,., anything that could come out of this. ., ,. ., y., ., anything that could come out of this. . ,. ., y., ., .., this. fascinating, you are welcome an ime. this. fascinating, you are welcome anytime- let's _ this. fascinating, you are welcome anytime- let's go _ this. fascinating, you are welcome anytime. let's go to _ this. fascinating, you are welcome anytime. let's go to sarah, - this. fascinating, you are welcome anytime. let's go to sarah, bbc'sl anytime. let's go to sarah, bbc�*s eastern europe corresponding, ex

moscow correspondent before being unceremoniously thrown out in 2021. what do you make of the ostensible appearance of the defence minister on the front line in ukraine this morning on russian television? old footage, perchance, but what do you make of the fact that they are showing it?— make of the fact that they are showin: it? . ,, ., , showing it? yeah, i think that is the key thing. — showing it? yeah, i think that is the key thing, comedy - showing it? yeah, i think that is the key thing, comedy back- showing it? yeah, i think that is i the key thing, comedy back those pictures are being shown and they are being shown right now definitely we can ask questions about when those pictures were filmed, there are reports that he was down in southern russia at the end of last week, so before this huge crisis began to play out, but the pictures were filmed, he was there, it was held on the shelf and now when there are big questions about his future and whether he was to be the sort of sacrificial goat at the altar of putin's survival and stability of his system, the answer seems to be no, putin is standing by his man. a personal friend no, putin is standing by his man. a personalfriend of putin no, putin is standing by his man. a

personal friend of putin and has been for many years, his defence ministerfor a very long been for many years, his defence minister for a very long time. been for many years, his defence ministerfor a very long time. two men who kind of go on holiday together. we saw the many years i was in russia you would see pictures of them every summer bare—chested wading through rivers, fishing, diving and also in kind of forest holidays together hiking, so their bromance, if you like, was i was a big thing and suddenly he was the man that prigozhin was mounting an armed insurrection to demand his removal, and it looks like for now the fact that this video has been produced to show he is still in his job, it looks like putin is standing by his man— at least for now. sager by his man- at least for now. saw his holiday _ by his man— at least for now. saw his holiday companion, his bromance, what about his chef, prigozhin? teller is a bit more about this man, an award winner i read, hero of the russian federation in 2022 and another award he won, the corrupt person of the year by the organised

crime and corruption reporting project, also in 2022. i wouldn't imagine both are on his shelves. he is a imagine both are on his shelves. he: is a former convict in the crazy montrose days of the 19905 in st peter5burg, went to prison for a violent crime, got out several years and became a hot salesman in st peter5burg, right at the time that putin was the deputy mayor there. he was in a position of authority in st peter5burg and the two men crossed paths at some point, eventually prigozhin became a restaurant, a fancy restaurant are no longer selling hot and he became one of these chefs, the trusted chefs of these chefs, the trusted chefs of the kremlin and of vladimir putin and so they have this pretty close relationship and eventually a kind of evolved into a position and a role whereby prigozhin was really

doing a lot of the kremlin's dirty work for it, and that was from real war, sending mercenaries into syria to fight in syria, also to africa, mercenaries there, but the hybrid war. prigozhin has been linked to many things, including attempts to destabilise western democracies, the use of this information, a giant roll farm in st peter5burg that has been linked meddle with the american election so he is and has been a very important figure, very close to putin and the russian state, and he is the one that has turned. that is why this is so significant and why these questions are now being asked about vladimir putin's reputation, his image but also hisjudgment. why did he not step in when this feud between prigozhin and the defence ministry became so obvious, so vicious and so plain for everyone to see? why did he let it get to a

point where prigozhin, put in's man had turned against the russian state and was marching against the state on moscow. extraordinary things happening this week and that it is hard to overestimate. white man george orwell�*s statue is out say when i am at the bbc in london and is it not a case of our enemy's enemy is our enemy, just to change the punch line about? i would not say prigozhin would be ourfriend, that's i would not say prigozhin would be our friend, that's for sure. i would not say prigozhin would be ourfriend, that's for sure. even if prigozhin had intended to actually challenge putin for power, and that's not what he was doing, he was marching against the defence ministry initially but that became a challenge to putin's authority by its very nature, impossible to turn against a defence ministry and not affect putin in the kremlin, even if he had succeeded there is no way a former convict, a brutal killer, man responsible for people killing and committing war crimes in ukraine could ever be any friend of normal democratic countries. no way. and

there is a question in all of this thatis there is a question in all of this that is still kind of bugging me summer at the back of my mind, is that one of the messages that comes out of this is be careful what you wish for in russia. we've been saying for years that they move away from putin's russia would not be to a democratic and free in liberal russia, it was never going to be a russia, it was never going to be a russia run by someone like the moderate opposition politician, it was a dream perhaps of some inside of another democratic one but it was not the likely scenario, the question is was prigozhin the piece that was supposed to show the west what the alternative might be, so much worse than vladimir putin? band much worse than vladimir putin? and how we can — much worse than vladimir putin? and how we can do _ much worse than vladimir putin? and how we can do is putin? well, - much worse than vladimir putin? and how we can do is putin? well, i - how we can do is putin? well, i think you _ how we can do is putin? well, i think you will _ how we can do is putin? well, i think you will do _ how we can do is putin? well, i think you will do his _ how we can do is putin? well, i think you will do his best - how we can do is putin? well, i think you will do his best to - how we can do is putin? well, i think you will do his best to put how we can do is putin? well, i i think you will do his best to put on a very big show of strength now, that's what he has to do, and i think the video of the defence minister down with the commanders in the south of russia operating, leading the forces in ukraine, that

was part of that kind of operation rescue my reputation, all about showing unity, showing the audience ukraine is an existential fight for russia that putin will continue to wage even though prigozhin has made so much criticism of the weight is being waged. he will knack and say russia as united, yet by me, i'm your man but she has been damaged by this, and when you look at the commentary, westernersjumping on commentary, westerners jumping on this commentary, westernersjumping on this hoping it means a lot more than it actually does but people within russia who have been close to the kremlin, sympathetic to it, not anti—kremlin voices, but are now asking questions and expressing doubts and worrying about the fragility of a regime they have been supporting and that they thought were strong, they thought represented stability and order and russian strength and might on the world stage. now they are also

asking difficult questions and i think ordinary russians, the people in the street will also have been pretty gobsmacked by what has happened over the past couple of days, the fact that prigozhin was allowed to mount this challenge in itself is a weakening of putin's authority. itself is a weakening of putin's authori . �* ., ., , ., authority. and the main opposition leader is still _ authority. and the main opposition leader is still buying _ authority. and the main opposition leader is still buying bars - authority. and the main opposition leader is still buying bars and - authority. and the main opposition leader is still buying bars and will. leader is still buying bars and will be for some time to, navalny. what is prigozhin's main problem with the way the war has been waged? how would you like it to be different? there are lots of things and i think luke was touching on it, he wants it to be bigger and better and i think he wants russia to win, that the commanders under the defence minister are failing. he has been throwing men at this work for months and he has been complaining that he has not been getting proper support for that. the beginning of this war,

hundreds of thousands of russian men fled the country, did not want to fight and die for putin, however pro they might have been, and when it came to the opportunity of laying their lives on the line, they were not interested. so prigozhin stepped in and went around presence, began recruiting convicts and promising them freedom and amnesty if they survive the fight. so they had a motive to fight this fight, they were committed. whilst there were questions about the commitment of other russian soldiers, perhaps, involved in the fight. i think prigozhin, there is no way this is a man who wanted to stop the war, although most recently interestingly he started to say, to question the very... we have just lost the sound with sarah, but i think we had the key sentence, that he chris the very premise of the more. luke, before

you go, what do you think this means for the more? i you go, what do you think this means forthe more?— for the more? i mean, it is interesting, _ for the more? i mean, it is interesting, on _ for the more? i mean, it is interesting, on saturday, | for the more? i mean, it is| interesting, on saturday, in for the more? i mean, it is- interesting, on saturday, in kyiv, when the move was unfolding, there was a move of expectancy, glee, lots ofjokes on social media about getting out the popcorn, and i think the hope was that these two russian factions would kill each other and may be forced to divert troops from the ukrainian front line to sort his domestic problems. they —— there was a deflationary moment when it was realised that the coup was over, but the divisions and feuds inside the russian military continue. it was interesting hearing sarahjust now, and i agree with everything she said, and part of the problem for putin is that some russian military actually sided with the plotters

come up with prigozhin, we have videos from groups here and there saying that they were for prigozhin, and putin now has to discuss with his intelligence chiefs, does he go after those people, does he purge them, does he ignore them? how loyal are they? might this happen again? he also has a problem that attempt to's people shuts down a helicopter, killing its crew, shot down a cargo aircraft, killing russian servicemen. what exactly did they die for? and also for russian troops in trenches and occupied ukraine, who are they fighting for? are they fighting for prigozhin, for putin, for russia? i think they will be pretty demoralised, and what we have to wait to see is whether ukraine can punch through the russian lines, will the russian army continue to fight, will it behave in a professional way or not. i think the

ukrainians are optimistic that after a slow start they can do something this summer, rolled towards crimea and de—occupied there. it is not over yet, and de—occupied there. it is not overyet, but and de—occupied there. it is not over yet, but there is definitely an opportunity for kyiv and the government of volodymyr zelensky. thank you for hanging on, luke, luke harding, the guardian's man in here. the question we're asking, putin, is this the beginning of the end? we are hearing from experts, and this matters to of us, in terms of the cost of living, politicians often refer to this is putin's more. it is 9:33.

and here is the news from karishma patel. a suspect in the murder of stephen lawrence has been named for the first time. this follows a bbc investigation, which uncovered witness testimony that matthew white — who died two years ago — was present during the attack in 1993. russia's defence minister has been shown on state tv visiting troops on the front line in ukraine. it's his first appearance since wagner mercenaries mutinied over the weekend. wagner leader yevgeny prigozhin had demanded sergei shoigu be removed from his post. prince william is launching a five—year campaign to combat homelessness, which he says shouldn't exist in a modern and progressive society. his charitable foundation is putting up £3 million in start—up funds, with projects planned for six locations across the uk. sales at primark went up by 13% in the latest quarter, helped by higher prices. its owner, associated british foods, says seasonal clothing and accessories, along with health and beauty products, had sold especially well.

that was the news, now the sport with nick hatton. manchester city have confirmed that captain ilkay gundogan will leave the club when his contract expires at the end of the month and willjoin barcelona. the 32—year—old won 14 trophies during his seven—year stay at the etihad. jis final act was to lift the champions league trophy aloft as city sealed the treble with their victory over inter milan earlier this month. england's women face an uphill battle to win the ashes test against australia. they closed on 116—5 on day four at trent bridge, still needing another 152 runs for victory. there's commentary on test match special on 5 sports extra, all the build—up from ten. china's ruoning yin held her nerve to sink a 72nd—hole birdie and win the women's pga championship on eight under par. a week before wimbledon, carlos alcaraz will return to world number one after victory in the final at queen's. it will also see him top seed at the all england club.

hollywood actors ryan reynolds and rob mcelhenney are part of an investor group taking a 24% equity stake in formula 1 team alpine. the pair are investing alongside otro capital and redbird capital partners as part of a £171 million deal.

good morning, we are discussing putin and the future until ten o'clock, and then at ten, such an important conversation, the princess of wales, william is set to unveil a plan to eradicate homelessness. he has made it his life's work, you might remember those pictures when he was 11, with his mother, visiting homelessness hostels, and he says homelessness hostels, and he says homelessness should not exist in a modern and progressive society, he says he wants to make it rare and brief and and repeated. more than 300,000 people across the uk are currently homeless. it comes in different forms, stuck in hostels, sofa surfing, as well as rough sleeping, and i think we see more of those people than ever before. he says, as i say, it is his life's work, so i am sure you have important questions, valid points,

relevant experience, realistic expectations, justifiable outrage, let's hear all of it at ten o'clock. we arejoined by we are joined by veteran russian washer edward lucas and also the visiting senior research fellow at the russian institute at king's couege the russian institute at king's college london, who was rushing herself, both of you, good morning. ian, you have been waiting, what would you like to say?— would you like to say? thanks, nic . would you like to say? thanks, nicky- there — would you like to say? thanks, nicky. there has _ would you like to say? thanks, nicky. there has been - would you like to say? thanks, nicky. there has been an - would you like to say? thanks, j nicky. there has been an awful would you like to say? thanks, - nicky. there has been an awful lot of good stuff from sarah, from anthony, from luke, and i'm sure there will be a lot more, i started listening to this on saturday night,

friday night, yeah, and the point i was trying to make is that i have a feeling that although putin has sort of exiled prigozhin to belarus, he has got a plan b for him, because the wagner group has armies in all different parts of the world, a lot of them in africa, but he is very useful to putin in other ways. and i wouldn't be surprised if, not too far down the road, you find that he is forgiven for what he did. but, yeah, that is the point i was trying to make, i think putin probably has a plan b for prigozhin and has palmed him off for the time being, until things have quietened down and

he can make use of him again. nicky? yes, is that edward? the he can make use of him again. nicky? yes, is that edward?— yes, is that edward? the news that is 'ust yes, is that edward? the news that is just breaking _ yes, is that edward? the news that isjust breaking at _ yes, is that edward? the news that isjust breaking at the _ yes, is that edward? the news that isjust breaking at the moment - yes, is that edward? the news that| isjust breaking at the moment from is just breaking at the moment from official— is just breaking at the moment from official russian media is that they have announced that the criminal proceedings against prigozhin have not been _ proceedings against prigozhin have not been halted and are still under way, _ not been halted and are still under way, which — not been halted and are still under way, which suggests to me that whatever— way, which suggests to me that whatever deal was struck has been ripped _ whatever deal was struck has been ripped up— whatever deal was struck has been ripped up almost as soon as it was made, _ ripped up almost as soon as it was made. and — ripped up almost as soon as it was made, and we also don't have any confirmation from belarus that prigozhin is actually there. so we suspect— prigozhin is actually there. so we suspect that prigozhin was may be given— suspect that prigozhin was may be given 24— suspect that prigozhin was may be given 24 hours to get out of the country — given 24 hours to get out of the country or— given 24 hours to get out of the country or something like that, but i country or something like that, but i don't _ country or something like that, but i don't see — country or something like that, but i don't see the kremlin as having -ot i don't see the kremlin as having got him — i don't see the kremlin as having got him at — i don't see the kremlin as having got him at the back of the stove waiting — got him at the back of the stove waiting to — got him at the back of the stove waiting to be used again if needed. that is— waiting to be used again if needed. that is interesting, yeah, that is so interesting, edward, and famously, or infamously, vladimir putin has said he doesn't... i mean, to be a traitor is to be at the top

of his list of those he detests. he will have of his list of those he detests. he: will have to find somebody else to replace prigozhin, isn't it? the wagner group, these mercenaries, are really useful to him, and they are obviously a lot better than the standard russian army. itell obviously a lot better than the standard russian army. i tell you what, that _ standard russian army. i tell you what, that is _ standard russian army. i tell you what, that is an _ standard russian army. i tell you what, that is an interesting - standard russian army. i tell you what, that is an interesting bit i standard russian army. i tell you what, that is an interesting bit of news brought to us on russian media, and i will put that to you, anna, what you make of that news we got from edward?— what you make of that news we got from edward? yeah, thank you very much for emphasising _ from edward? yeah, thank you very much for emphasising that - from edward? yeah, thank you very much for emphasising that i - from edward? yeah, thank you very much for emphasising that i was - from edward? yeah, thank you very i much for emphasising that i was born in russia, _ much for emphasising that i was born in russia, i_ much for emphasising that i was born in russia, liust — much for emphasising that i was born in russia, ijust have _ much for emphasising that i was born in russia, ijust have to _ much for emphasising that i was born in russia, ijust have to make - much for emphasising that i was born in russia, ijust have to make it - in russia, ijust have to make it very— in russia, ijust have to make it very clear— in russia, ijust have to make it very clear to _ in russia, ijust have to make it very clear to everyone - in russia, ijust have to make it very clear to everyone who - in russia, ijust have to make it very clear to everyone who is i very clear to everyone who is listening _ very clear to everyone who is listening is— very clear to everyone who is listening is that _ very clear to everyone who is listening is that i _ very clear to everyone who is listening is that i have - very clear to everyone who is listening is that i have both i very clear to everyone who is i listening is that i have both uk very clear to everyone who is - listening is that i have both uk and russian _ listening is that i have both uk and russian citizenship, _ listening is that i have both uk and russian citizenship, and _ listening is that i have both uk and russian citizenship, and i'm - listening is that i have both uk and russian citizenship, and i'm not. listening is that i have both uk and russian citizenship, and i'm not a i russian citizenship, and i'm not a spokesperson _ russian citizenship, and i'm not a spokesperson for— russian citizenship, and i'm not a spokesperson for the _ russian citizenship, and i'm not a spokesperson for the russian - spokesperson for the russian government _ spokesperson for the russian government. so _ spokesperson for the russian government. so two - spokesperson for the russian government. so two points, i spokesperson for the russian| government. so two points, if spokesperson for the russian i government. so two points, if i spokesperson for the russian - government. so two points, if i may. there _ government. so two points, if i may. there are _ government. so two points, if i may. there are debates _ government. so two points, if i may.

there are debates in— government. so two points, if i may. there are debates in the _ government. so two points, if i may. there are debates in the russian- there are debates in the russian parliament, _ there are debates in the russian parliament, the _ there are debates in the russian parliament, the russian - there are debates in the russian parliament, the russian state i there are debates in the russian- parliament, the russian state duma, about— parliament, the russian state duma, about what— parliament, the russian state duma, about what is — parliament, the russian state duma, about what is the _ parliament, the russian state duma, about what is the wagner— parliament, the russian state duma, about what is the wagner private - about what is the wagner private military— about what is the wagner private military company, _ about what is the wagner private military company, which - about what is the wagner private military company, which is - about what is the wagner private military company, which is not. military company, which is not regulated _ military company, which is not regulated by— military company, which is not regulated by russian - military company, which is not regulated by russian law, - military company, which is not regulated by russian law, so i regulated by russian law, so technically— regulated by russian law, so technically they— regulated by russian law, so technically they have - regulated by russian law, so i technically they have operated outside — technically they have operated outside of _ technically they have operated outside of the _ technically they have operated outside of the law— technically they have operated outside of the law all- technically they have operated outside of the law all of- technically they have operated outside of the law all of this i technically they have operated - outside of the law all of this time. so now— outside of the law all of this time. so now the — outside of the law all of this time. so now the question _ outside of the law all of this time. so now the question for _ outside of the law all of this time. so now the question for the - so now the question for the parliamentarians— so now the question for the parliamentarians is, - so now the question for the parliamentarians is, do- so now the question for the parliamentarians is, do wel so now the question for the - parliamentarians is, do we make so now the question for the _ parliamentarians is, do we make them legal. _ parliamentarians is, do we make them legal, do _ parliamentarians is, do we make them legal, do we _ parliamentarians is, do we make them legal, do we adopt— parliamentarians is, do we make them legal, do we adopt this _ parliamentarians is, do we make them legal, do we adopt this law? _ parliamentarians is, do we make them legal, do we adopt this law? that - legal, do we adopt this law? that would _ legal, do we adopt this law? that would regulate _ legal, do we adopt this law? that would regulate the _ legal, do we adopt this law? that would regulate the activity. - legal, do we adopt this law? that would regulate the activity. or. legal, do we adopt this law? that i would regulate the activity. or they will be _ would regulate the activity. or they will be a _ would regulate the activity. or they will be a illegitimate _ would regulate the activity. or they will be a illegitimate military- will be a illegitimate military formation, _ will be a illegitimate military formation, and _ will be a illegitimate military formation, and in— will be a illegitimate military formation, and in terms- will be a illegitimate military formation, and in terms of. formation, and in terms of prigozhin. _ formation, and in terms of prigozhin, there _ formation, and in terms of prigozhin, there is- formation, and in terms of prigozhin, there is of- formation, and in terms of. prigozhin, there is of course a formation, and in terms of- prigozhin, there is of course a lot of speculation _ prigozhin, there is of course a lot of speculation what _ prigozhin, there is of course a lot of speculation what exactly- prigozhin, there is of course a lot of speculation what exactly the l prigozhin, there is of course a lot. of speculation what exactly the deal is, how— of speculation what exactly the deal is, how much— of speculation what exactly the deal is, how much threat _ of speculation what exactly the deal is, how much threat he _ of speculation what exactly the deal is, how much threat he presents- of speculation what exactly the deal is, how much threat he presents to| is, how much threat he presents to the russian — is, how much threat he presents to the russian leadership, _ is, how much threat he presents to the russian leadership, is- is, how much threat he presents to the russian leadership, is he - is, how much threat he presents to| the russian leadership, is he acting on his— the russian leadership, is he acting on his own. — the russian leadership, is he acting on his own. or— the russian leadership, is he acting on his own. or is— the russian leadership, is he acting on his own, or is he _ the russian leadership, is he acting on his own, or is he part _ the russian leadership, is he acting on his own, or is he part of- the russian leadership, is he acting on his own, or is he part of a - the russian leadership, is he acting on his own, or is he part of a kind . on his own, or is he part of a kind ofa— on his own, or is he part of a kind ofa larger— on his own, or is he part of a kind ofa larger plot? _ on his own, or is he part of a kind of a larger plot? there _ on his own, or is he part of a kind of a larger plot? there is- on his own, or is he part of a kind of a larger plot? there is no- of a larger plot? there is no indication— of a larger plot? there is no indication that _ of a larger plot? there is no indication that he _ of a larger plot? there is no indication that he was - of a larger plot? there is no indication that he was goingj of a larger plot? there is no. indication that he was going to belarus — indication that he was going to belarus. there _ indication that he was going to belarus. there was _ indication that he was going to belarus. there was a - indication that he was going to belarus. there was a rumour. indication that he was going to i belarus. there was a rumour that indication that he was going to - belarus. there was a rumour that he will be _

belarus. there was a rumour that he will be going — belarus. there was a rumour that he will be going to _ belarus. there was a rumour that he will be going to africa, _ belarus. there was a rumour that he will be going to africa, where - belarus. there was a rumour that he will be going to africa, where he - will be going to africa, where he will be going to africa, where he will really — will be going to africa, where he will really be _ will be going to africa, where he will really be out _ will be going to africa, where he will really be out of _ will be going to africa, where he will really be out of action - will be going to africa, where he will really be out of action and l will really be out of action and pretty— will really be out of action and pretty far— will really be out of action and pretty far away _ will really be out of action and pretty far away. but _ will really be out of action and pretty far away. but my - will really be out of action and pretty far away. but my sensej will really be out of action and . pretty far away. but my sense is that the — pretty far away. but my sense is that the russian _ pretty far away. but my sense is that the russian leadership - pretty far away. but my sense is that the russian leadership hasl pretty far away. but my sense is i that the russian leadership has not worked _ that the russian leadership has not worked out — that the russian leadership has not worked out what _ that the russian leadership has not worked out what to _ that the russian leadership has not worked out what to do _ that the russian leadership has not worked out what to do with - that the russian leadership has not worked out what to do with him, i that the russian leadership has not. worked out what to do with him, and they are _ worked out what to do with him, and they are pursuing _ worked out what to do with him, and they are pursuing both _ worked out what to do with him, and they are pursuing both options - they are pursuing both options simultaneously, _ they are pursuing both options simultaneously, seeing- they are pursuing both options simultaneously, seeing how. they are pursuing both options - simultaneously, seeing how powerful he is in _ simultaneously, seeing how powerful he is in reality — simultaneously, seeing how powerful he is in reality. if— simultaneously, seeing how powerful he is in reality-— he is in reality. if they can, or if ou he is in reality. if they can, or if you can. _ he is in reality. if they can, or if you can. putin _ he is in reality. if they can, or if you can, putin will— he is in reality. if they can, or if you can, putin will kill - he is in reality. if they can, or if you can, putin will kill him, - he is in reality. if they can, or if i you can, putin will kill him, won't he? q you can, putin will kill him, won't he? .,i ., .,i . he? putin might offer him an office with a very — he? putin might offer him an office with a very big _ he? putin might offer him an office with a very big window— he? putin might offer him an office with a very big window and - he? putin might offer him an office with a very big window and a - with a very big window and a balcony. i with a very big window and a balcon . ., �* ~i with a very big window and a balcon . ., �* ,, , ., balcony. i don't think he is going to kill him, _ balcony. i don't think he is going to kill him, because _ balcony. i don't think he is going to kill him, because he - balcony. i don't think he is going to kill him, because he is- balcony. i don't think he is going | to kill him, because he is useful, and prigozhin _ to kill him, because he is useful, and prigozhin also _ to kill him, because he is useful, and prigozhin also has _ to kill him, because he is useful, and prigozhin also has quite - to kill him, because he is useful, and prigozhin also has quite a . to kill him, because he is useful, and prigozhin also has quite a lot of assets — and prigozhin also has quite a lot of assets to— and prigozhin also has quite a lot of assets to become _ and prigozhin also has quite a lot of assets to become if— and prigozhin also has quite a lot of assets to become if not - and prigozhin also has quite a lot of assets to become if not a - and prigozhin also has quite a lot. of assets to become if not a future leader— of assets to become if not a future leader of— of assets to become if not a future leader of russia, _ of assets to become if not a future leader of russia, becomes - of assets to become if not a future i leader of russia, becomes somebody who can _ leader of russia, becomes somebody who can lead — leader of russia, becomes somebody who can lead a — leader of russia, becomes somebody who can lead a significant _ leader of russia, becomes somebody who can lead a significant part- leader of russia, becomes somebody who can lead a significant part of- who can lead a significant part of russian — who can lead a significant part of russian society. _ who can lead a significant part of russian society. 50, _ who can lead a significant part of russian society. 50, yes, - who can lead a significant part of russian society. 50, yes, he - who can lead a significant part of russian society. 50, yes, he will| who can lead a significant part of. russian society. 50, yes, he will be a powerful— russian society. 50, yes, he will be

a powerful ally~ _ russian society. 50, yes, he will be a powerful ally. and _ russian society. 50, yes, he will be a powerful ally. and also _ russian society. 50, yes, he will be a powerful ally. and also a - russian society. 50, yes, he will be a powerful ally. and also a very - a powerful ally. and also a very unpleasant, _ a powerful ally. and also a very unpleasant, active, _ a powerful ally. and also a very unpleasant, active, daring - a powerful ally. and also a very unpleasant, active, daring andl unpleasant, active, daring and risk-taking _ unpleasant, active, daring and risk—taking enemy, _ unpleasant, active, daring and risk—taking enemy, so - unpleasant, active, daring and risk—taking enemy, so there . unpleasant, active, daring and i risk—taking enemy, so there are people — risk—taking enemy, so there are people who _ risk—taking enemy, so there are people who will _ risk—taking enemy, so there are people who will make _ risk—taking enemy, so there are people who will make him - risk—taking enemy, so there are people who will make him play. risk—taking enemy, so there are - people who will make him play along, rather— people who will make him play along, rather than _ people who will make him play along, rather than antagonising _ people who will make him play along, rather than antagonising him - rather than antagonising him further~ _ rather than antagonising him further. �* , ., rather than antagonising him further. �*, ., ., ., rather than antagonising him further. �*, ., .,., , further. let's go to our callers, it is treat further. let's go to our callers, it is great hearing _ further. let's go to our callers, it is great hearing from _ further. let's go to our callers, it is great hearing from you - further. let's go to our callers, it is great hearing from you this - is great hearing from you this morning. renata, originally from poland, what would you like to say? oh, hello, good morning, it isjust my personal— oh, hello, good morning, it isjust my personal view. i do think we will soon _ my personal view. i do think we will soon find _ my personal view. i do think we will soon find out, it was unexpected and it lasted _ soon find out, it was unexpected and it lasted 24 _ soon find out, it was unexpected and it lasted 24 hours, and it is really hard _ it lasted 24 hours, and it is really hard to— it lasted 24 hours, and it is really hard to believe that it was serious. the system — hard to believe that it was serious. the system is so unforgiving and built _ the system is so unforgiving and built on— the system is so unforgiving and built on spite and lack of trust, is a really— built on spite and lack of trust, is a really hard to believe. it built on spite and lack of trust, is a really hard to believe.— a really hard to believe. a set up to what end? —

a really hard to believe. a set up to what end? attracting - a really hard to believe. a set up i to what end? attracting attention, distractin: to what end? attracting attention, distracting ukraine, _ to what end? attracting attention, distracting ukraine, i— to what end? attracting attention, distracting ukraine, i think. - to what end? attracting attention, distracting ukraine, ithink. i- distracting ukraine, ithink. i wouldn't— distracting ukraine, ithink. i wouldn't see a civil war in russia happening — wouldn't see a civil war in russia happening-— wouldn't see a civil war in russia hauenint. . ., happening. edward lucas. more to this than meets _ happening. edward lucas. more to this than meets the _ happening. edward lucas. more to this than meets the eye? - happening. edward lucas. more to this than meets the eye? i - happening. edward lucas. more to this than meets the eye? i think . this than meets the eye? i think there is more _ this than meets the eye? i think there is more to _ this than meets the eye? i think there is more to it _ this than meets the eye? i think there is more to it than - this than meets the eye? i think there is more to it than meets l this than meets the eye? i think i there is more to it than meets the eye, and there are a lot of things we don't know, but what prigozhin was actually planning, what would he have done if you got to moscow? was he expecting splits in the regime? was he going to declare himself president? what was the plan there? we don't know. we don't really know what made him back down. there is a story in the telegraph today quoting british intelligence sources, saying that there were threats to the family members of the wagner leadership if he did not back down. there are also suggestions that they would be hit by strikes or may be some other pressure was brought to bear, we don't really know about

that either. but i don't believe, and i really strongly, you know, want to argue against the idea that this is some kind of ruse all stunned, that it was organised by putin with his knowledge and consent to flush out traitors, or that it was designed to confuse ukraine and get them to launch an overambitious counterattack. i think there is a lot of this conspiratorial thinking about, and i don't think that is true. this is terribly damaging for putin, it makes him look we'd delude weak, and it is terribly bad for russian morale on the front. —— it makes him look weak. russian morale on the front. -- it makes him look weak.— russian morale on the front. -- it makes him look weak. edward, in your art ument makes him look weak. edward, in your argument in — makes him look weak. edward, in your argument in the _ makes him look weak. edward, in your argument in the times _ makes him look weak. edward, in your argument in the times today, - makes him look weak. edward, in your argument in the times today, which i i argument in the times today, which i commend to people, it is fascinating, following on from that point, you make the point that muscovites will not forget the

alarming sides of troops and road blocks, that the central paradox of the putin era that his popularity is a self reinforcing, perception of power created a reality, so as far as we know anything about public opinion, how might that be shaped by this? ~ , , . ., this? well, this is the central feature of — this? well, this is the central feature of the _ this? well, this is the central feature of the whole - this? well, this is the central feature of the whole putin . this? well, this is the central - feature of the whole putin system, that he has this tremendous popularity, which comes up in any opinion poll, sometimes up in the near 80%, very rarely dropping below 50%, and people like to say from that, well, he is very popular. what it really means is that he is very powerful, and if the top guy is in charge and you ask, what do you think of the top guy, you say, he is great. if he is no longer in charge, you probably do not say that, but thatis you probably do not say that, but that is the sort of society russia is, and when prigozhin was on the up and was taking control of rostov—on—don, this vitally important, big city in southern

russia, people were cheering him, and i suspect that wasn't because they actually wanted this fascist gangster who beats people to death with sledgehammers and boast about it taking over our country, they just thought, he is on the way up, so let's cheer him. i think that putin's popularity, once it takes a dent... , , putin's popularity, once it takes a dent... , ., putin's popularity, once it takes a dent... , , ., . dent... just lost it would, that hrase, dent... just lost it would, that phrase. nutty _ dent... just lost it would, that phrase, nutty fascist - dent... just lost it would, that phrase, nutty fascist gangster| dent... just lost it would, that l phrase, nutty fascist gangster is ringing in my head. nutty fascist gangster attempting to pose, you might say, a nutty fascist brutal dictator. joyce in glasgow, we will try to get him back,... hi. dictator. joyce in glasgow, we will try to get him back,...— dictator. joyce in glasgow, we will try to get him back,... hi, can you hear me 0k? _ try to get him back,... hi, can you hear me 0k? it _ try to get him back,... hi, can you hear me 0k? it is _ try to get him back,... hi, can you hear me 0k? it is a _ try to get him back,... hi, can you hear me 0k? it is a beautiful - try to get him back,... hi, can you hear me 0k? it is a beautiful line, j hear me 0k? it is a beautiful line, car on. hear me 0k? it is a beautiful line, carry on- oh. _ hear me 0k? it is a beautiful line, carry on. oh, great. _ hear me 0k? it is a beautiful line, carry on. oh, great. nicky, - hear me 0k? it is a beautiful line, carry on. oh, great. nicky, i- hear me 0k? it is a beautiful line, carry on. oh, great. nicky, i am i carry on. oh, great. nicky, i am 'ust an carry on. oh, great. nicky, i am just an ordinary, _ carry on. oh, great. nicky, i am just an ordinary, simple - carry on. oh, great. nicky, i amj just an ordinary, simple person, carry on. oh, great. nicky, i am - just an ordinary, simple person, and the beginning of the end, this war should _ the beginning of the end, this war should never have started, never.

what _ should never have started, never. what happened to the peace talks? i am sure _ what happened to the peace talks? i am sure there are good people in russia, _ am sure there are good people in russia, good people all over the world, _ russia, good people all over the world, we — russia, good people all over the world, we are all suffering, everyone, the electricity, the food crisis. _ everyone, the electricity, the food crisis. the — everyone, the electricity, the food crisis, the poverty, everything that is happening, everyone is suffering, everyone _ is happening, everyone is suffering, everyone in— is happening, everyone is suffering, everyone in the whole world is affected — everyone in the whole world is affected by this, and what i can't understand is, what happened to the peace _ understand is, what happened to the peace talks? who is negotiating that? _ peace talks? who is negotiating that? the — peace talks? who is negotiating that? the peace talks should never have left— that? the peace talks should never have left the table. president putin is a clever. — have left the table. president putin is a clever, clever man, he is a superpower. _ is a clever, clever man, he is a superpower, and i say be a superhero and bring _ superpower, and i say be a superhero and bring peace to the table, bring back the _ and bring peace to the table, bring back the negotiations, because it is 'ust back the negotiations, because it is just a _ back the negotiations, because it is just a total— back the negotiations, because it is just a total crisis that is affecting everyone, and in war, there _ affecting everyone, and in war, there are — affecting everyone, and in war, there are no winners, there is only losers, _ there are no winners, there is only losers, nicky. it is like, if you

think— losers, nicky. it is like, if you think about _ losers, nicky. it is like, if you think about when a marriage breaks down, _ think about when a marriage breaks down, a _ think about when a marriage breaks down, a relationship breaks down, there _ down, a relationship breaks down, there are — down, a relationship breaks down, there are no — down, a relationship breaks down, there are no winners, there are no winners _ there are no winners, there are no winners in— there are no winners, there are no winners in this, and i'm saying, please — winners in this, and i'm saying, please bring peace back to the table — please bring peace back to the table. the beginning of the end, don't _ table. the beginning of the end, don't make there be any more losers in life. _ don't make there be any more losers in life. the _ don't make there be any more losers in life, the pandemic, how many people _ in life, the pandemic, how many people lost their lives through that? — people lost their lives through that? it— people lost their lives through that? it is a crisis of the world, and _ that? it is a crisis of the world, and someone needs to bring peace to the table _ and someone needs to bring peace to the table. ., , , , . the table. someone sensible. whose eace? the table. someone sensible. whose peace? peace... _ the table. someone sensible. whose peace? peace... i— the table. someone sensible. whose peace? peace... i mean, _ the table. someone sensible. whose peace? peace... i mean, should- peace? peace... i mean, should putin, as _ peace? peace... i mean, should putin. as part— peace? peace... i mean, should putin, as part of— peace? peace... i mean, should putin, as part of any _ peace? peace... i mean, should putin, as part of any peace - peace? peace... i mean, should| putin, as part of any peace deal, keep the land he currently occupies? i am a simple person, and ijust iam a simple person, and ijust want— lam a simple person, and ijust want to— lam a simple person, and ijust want to fighting to stop. so that the rest — want to fighting to stop. so that the rest of the world can be at peace, — the rest of the world can be at peace, peace for the whole of the world! _ peace, peace for the whole of the world! there is enough struggles left for— world! there is enough struggles left for everyone, and we need to bring _ left for everyone, and we need to bring back— left for everyone, and we need to bring back that calmness and kindness— bring back that calmness and kindness and love. no—one is wanting

any more _ kindness and love. no—one is wanting any more war— kindness and love. no—one is wanting any more war orangerand any more war or anger and aggression. any more war orangerand aggression. i see people walking with aggression. ! see people walking with their— aggression. i see people walking with their heads down in sadness. i want _ with their heads down in sadness. i want the _ with their heads down in sadness. i want the world to be at peace and kindness — want the world to be at peace and kindness and love. and... want the world to be at peace and kindness and love. and. . .- kindness and love. and... joyce? yes. i kindness and love. and... joyce? yes- i am — kindness and love. and... joyce? yes- i am glad — kindness and love. and... joyce? yes. i am glad we _ kindness and love. and... joyce? yes. i am glad we have _ kindness and love. and... joyce? yes. i am glad we have heard - kindness and love. and... joyce? | yes. i am glad we have heard your sentiments— yes. i am glad we have heard your sentiments this _ yes. i am glad we have heard your sentiments this morning, - yes. i am glad we have heard your sentiments this morning, thank i yes. i am glad we have heard your. sentiments this morning, thank you so much, edward lucas, easiersaid than done, what will be peace be? if than done, what will be peace be? if the world was full of people like you, it would be fine, but it is a nasty old place out there, and we have a really nasty people running countries who want to do horrible things to other countries. and remember, you know, putin wants to destroy ukraine, he doesn't think it should exist as a country, he doesn't want to choose its own systems, he sees it as an ex colony, and that is something that the ukrainians do not accept and they

want to defend their own country, and it is true there is a horrible cost for the rest of the world, particularly africa, suffering from spiking prices in food, fuel and fertiliser and things like that. but if you see someone being beaten up in the street, you don't say, can't we have peace? you have to do something to help the person being beaten up, and this is a war of aggression from russia, and we cannotjust walk by aggression from russia, and we cannot just walk by and the aggression from russia, and we cannotjust walk by and the other side and say, sorry, wejust cannotjust walk by and the other side and say, sorry, we just want rainbows and sunshine. because that is not the world putin lives in, and it is not the peace that he wants to end up with, he wants ukraine broken. it end up with, he wants ukraine broken. , ~ end up with, he wants ukraine broken. , ,, , .,, broken. it is like when people say they behave _ broken. it is like when people say they behave like _ broken. it is like when people say they behave like animals, - broken. it is like when people say they behave like animals, and - broken. it is like when people say i they behave like animals, and most animals would not behave like the way we do. jack is a film—maker and journalist who has returned from the ukraine front lines, who has reported extensively on the wagner

group. right, jack, tell us about this group, tell us about this man, tell us about what you think the significance of the weekend's events are. not got him yet! we will try and find him. we do, however, have vitaly shevchenko, russian editor at bbc monitoring, hello! we have got you! what about what is being said on the russian media, edward lucas, just repeat what you heard, and we will get a comment on it. mgm just repeat what you heard, and we will get a comment on it.— will get a comment on it. well i have seen _ will get a comment on it. well i have seen this _ will get a comment on it. well i have seen this on _ will get a comment on it. well i have seen this on russian - will get a comment on it. well i l have seen this on russian media, that the criminal case against precaution has not been stopped, which was part of what was announced as the original deal, and so this raises questions about what will happen to bogosian and what kind of revenge will be taken, because his

quys revenge will be taken, because his guys shot down, i think, 12 russian pilots, and numerous russian planes, including extremely expensive surveillance aircraft were shot down as he was marching out of rostov—on—don. so it would be odd to me if he was let off with a smack on the wrist and told to get out of the way. 50 the wrist and told to get out of the wa . ,, ., , the wrist and told to get out of the wa i ,, ., , ., the wrist and told to get out of the wa. , ., ., the wrist and told to get out of the wa . , ., ., ., the wrist and told to get out of the wa. , ., ., .,, ., way. so it is not going to be, how, fortet way. so it is not going to be, how, forget about _ way. so it is not going to be, how, forget about it, _ way. so it is not going to be, how, forget about it, what _ way. so it is not going to be, how, forget about it, what more - way. so it is not going to be, how, forget about it, what more can - way. so it is not going to be, how, | forget about it, what more can you tell us? ~ , , , ., ., forget about it, what more can you tellus? , , ., ., tell us? well, this is why a lot of eo - le tell us? well, this is why a lot of people are _ tell us? well, this is why a lot of people are saying _ tell us? well, this is why a lot of people are saying now _ tell us? well, this is why a lot of people are saying now that - tell us? well, this is why a lot of. people are saying now that russia is not a _ people are saying now that russia is not a properly functioning state. in fact, i_ not a properly functioning state. in fact, i saw— not a properly functioning state. in fact, i saw one russian opposition leader— fact, i saw one russian opposition leader in— fact, i saw one russian opposition leader in exile say that russia can be seen _ leader in exile say that russia can be seen as— leader in exile say that russia can be seen as a failed state right now. to start _ be seen as a failed state right now. to start with, private military companies, mercenary companies, are outlawed _ companies, mercenary companies, are outlawed in— companies, mercenary companies, are outlawed in russia. it is against the law— outlawed in russia. it is against the law to — outlawed in russia. it is against the law to be paid to fight. and yet wagner— the law to be paid to fight. and yet wagner exists, after years of

denying _ wagner exists, after years of denying that it existed, suddenly the state — denying that it existed, suddenly the state media and russian official said, the state media and russian official said. oh. _ the state media and russian official said, oh, yeah, it is fighting for us in— said, oh, yeah, it is fighting for us in ukraine. and what we have been seeing _ us in ukraine. and what we have been seeing over— us in ukraine. and what we have been seeing over the past few days illustrates very well how badly russia's— illustrates very well how badly russia's legal system is functioning. these latest reports suggest — functioning. these latest reports suggest that prosecutors are... well, _ suggest that prosecutors are... well, they— suggest that prosecutors are... well, they have not dropped criminal charges _ well, they have not dropped criminal charges against prigozhin, it could be an— charges against prigozhin, it could be an attempt by those prosecutors to save _ be an attempt by those prosecutors to save face and say we are not going _ to save face and say we are not going to — to save face and say we are not going to do that just because we to save face and say we are not going to do thatjust because we got a phone _ going to do thatjust because we got a phone call from the kremlin. but whatever— a phone call from the kremlin. but whatever happens next, both vladimir putin and _ whatever happens next, both vladimir putin and yevgeny prigozhin, they are badly— putin and yevgeny prigozhin, they are badly wounded. it may be over for yevgeny prigozhin, because i cannot— for yevgeny prigozhin, because i cannot really see him returning to where _ cannot really see him returning to where he — cannot really see him returning to where he was before, to the position of power. _ where he was before, to the position of power, position of trust, that is

not going — of power, position of trust, that is not going to — of power, position of trust, that is not going to happen. but it will not be over— not going to happen. but it will not be over for— not going to happen. but it will not be overfoeradimir not going to happen. but it will not be over for vladimir putin. it is really— be over for vladimir putin. it is really interesting to see how he is going _ really interesting to see how he is going to _ really interesting to see how he is going to try and repair, restore his authority. — going to try and repair, restore his authority, because people around him. _ authority, because people around him. the — authority, because people around him, the reason why they supported him, the reason why they supported him for— him, the reason why they supported him for all— him, the reason why they supported him for all these years was because putin's_ him for all these years was because putin's selling point was that he could _ putin's selling point was that he could be — putin's selling point was that he could be seen as the man who knows, the man— could be seen as the man who knows, the man in— could be seen as the man who knows, the man in control, the man with the vision _ the man in control, the man with the vision who— the man in control, the man with the vision who is — the man in control, the man with the vision who is able to defend russia, restore _ vision who is able to defend russia, restore order, and almost overnight all that— restore order, and almost overnight all that has— restore order, and almost overnight all that has gone out of the window. and whether the people upon whom he will have _ and whether the people upon whom he will have to _ and whether the people upon whom he will have to rely, people in the security— will have to rely, people in the security services, the people who have _ security services, the people who have the — security services, the people who have the money, even though they

have the money, even though they have been— have the money, even though they have been at his beck and call all these _ have been at his beck and call all these years, they might sense blood. they might _ these years, they might sense blood. they might start to see him as a liability, — they might start to see him as a liability, ratherthan they might start to see him as a liability, rather than as an asset. vitaly, _ liability, rather than as an asset. vitaly, thank you for that. jack is a film—maker recently returned from ukraine, reported extensively on wagner, we have got about three minutes, heading towards ten o'clock, what is the future of this group now, as we heard from vitaly, technically mercenary armies, private armies are illegal. yeah, tood private armies are illegal. yeah, good morning. _ private armies are illegal. yeah, good morning, thank _ private armies are illegal. yeah, good morning, thank you - private armies are illegal. yeah, good morning, thank you very i private armies are illegal. yeah, - good morning, thank you very much for having me on. well, you know, we have been told that the russian state will be dismantling this mercenary army, which is all well and good, but taking apart an entity like wagner that spans multiple countries isn't going to be simple. they are notjust in ukraine, this is a force that has been deployed across the world, particularly in

africa. they have a huge international footprint. africa. they have a huge internationalfootprint. prigozhin claims he has 25,000 men under arms, and they have shown themselves to be fiercely loyal to him. they are a key tool of russian foreign policy, providing security assistance to various african states, like mali, the central african republic, they have a footprint in libya, sudan, mozambique, they run mines in these countries, they are fighting insurgents in these countries on behalf of various governments that have hired them. this is a powerful, entrenched system that cannot be changed overnight. and just mentioning the central african republic, i think there is actually a parallel here that putin would be wise to take account of. wagner had been deployed in that country, and in that war—torn, practically failed state in the heart of africa, a country i have reported extensively from on the ground, we have seen this again and again — warlords

raise a rebel army, launch an insurrection, and instead of any lasting, peaceful solution, the rebel warlords are bought off with a pretty flimsy compromise. and all that does in the long run is to give further incentives for further violence, whichjust further incentives for further violence, which just sets the country off in a further spiral of instability, payoff, instability and payoff. it is not a huge leap of imagination to see the same dynamic happening with prigozhin. he will be looking at this, unless moscow comes down on him harder, and we havejust seen that the charges against him have not been dropped, and that might be signalling that moscow really does want to take its revenge on prigozhin. you know, this is russia just descending into a failed state, much like we have seen in the places where wagner have been deployed in africa. it is a great irony. it

deployed in africa. it is a great iron . .., deployed in africa. it is a great iron . , deployed in africa. it is a great iron. , _,, irony. it could be five years, ten ears, irony. it could be five years, ten years. five _ irony. it could be five years, ten years, five months, _ irony. it could be five years, ten years, five months, we - irony. it could be five years, ten years, five months, wejust - irony. it could be five years, tenl years, five months, wejust don't know. years, five months, we 'ust don't know. . years, five months, we 'ust don't know. , . ., , ., know. there is huge uncertainty, and that is extremely _ know. there is huge uncertainty, and that is extremely dangerous - know. there is huge uncertainty, and that is extremely dangerous to - know. there is huge uncertainty, and that is extremely dangerous to the i that is extremely dangerous to the putin regime. it has left him sitting like a lame duck, he has made some terrible choices in the last 48 hours, his only way back from this is to come down hard, but prigozhin will be plotting, he has been sent to belarus supposedly, but we don't know his location. yeah, the saga is far from resolved. thank ou ve the saga is far from resolved. thank you very much _ the saga is far from resolved. thank you very much indeed. _ the saga is far from resolved. thank you very much indeed. brilliant - you very much indeed. brilliant experts this morning, interesting holes as well. and now we want to get your thoughts on homelessness. home is where the heart is, but first of all, we need one. there are more than 300,000 people currently homeless across the uk.

prince william says homelessness should not exist in a "modern and progressive society". he says he wants to make it "rare, brief and unrepeated". prince william says it's his life's work to bring homeless to an end and is launching a project he hopes will help people who are on the street into a safe & secure home. how do we end homelessness? now for the news. a key suspect in the murder of stephen lawrence has been publicly named — following a bbc investigation. matthew white died two years ago. a re—examination of the case found the met police made several mistakes. the force has acknowledged significant errors. russia's defence minister has

appeared on state television — for the first time since wagner mercenaries launched an armed mutiny, which aimed to remove him from the post. the footage shows sergei shoigu visiting a military base. it's not clear when it was recorded. prince william has set up a five year project to tackle homelessness in the uk — putting up £3—million in start up funds through his charitable foundation. the 'homewards' initiative will focus on six areas — where local businesses, organisations and individuals will be encouraged to work together. sir eltonjohn has been widely praised for his performance at glastonbury last night. he described the show as "emotional" — and told the crowds it could be his last live concert in the uk.

yes, prince william says homelessness should not exist in a progressive and modern society. he is not wrong. it comes in many forms. he says he wants to make it rare, brief and un—repeated. quite a challenge. multifactorial. a5 rare, brief and un—repeated. quite a challenge. multifactorial. as i said, more than 300,000 people currently homeless across the uk, comes in many forms, people stuck in hospitals, temporary accommodation, living in cars, sofa surfing as well as people rough sleeping. important questions to bring you and we want to hear your points on your expectations and indeed your outrage and thoughts on the possibilities and thoughts on the possibilities and probabilities of all this. the director of policy and external affairs at crisis is joining us. gary from cornwall, colonel is an

interesting case study if you want to put it like that. francesco, what do you make of this plan? it's very bold, isn't it? it do you make of this plan? it's very bold, isn't it?— bold, isn't it? it is a bold kind of thin to bold, isn't it? it is a bold kind of thing to say. _ bold, isn't it? it is a bold kind of thing to say, but _ bold, isn't it? it is a bold kind of thing to say, but it _ bold, isn't it? it is a bold kind of thing to say, but it is _ bold, isn't it? it is a bold kind of thing to say, but it is totally - thing to say, but it is totally doable and we know there are examples of homelessness being ended in other countries, in finland with the homelessness coming down but it is great that prince william is using his platform, his profile to really talk about the issue, but talk about with solutions attached, and it can be done and i think that is what is really great about the announcement today, it is about being ready solutions focused. is being ready solutions focused. is setting up this foundation, isn't he? and it's going to appoint a local leader in each area who is going to bring together all the sort of stakeholders, pivotal in any

particular location for the local authorities, present schools, housing associations, how's that going to work? == housing associations, how's that going to work?— housing associations, how's that going to work? housing associations, how's that atoin to work? , ,. , going to work? -- prison schools. in order to end — going to work? -- prison schools. in order to end homelessness - going to work? -- prison schools. in order to end homelessness in - going to work? -- prison schools. in order to end homelessness in local i order to end homelessness in local areas, you do need that collaboration, all the different actors involved, people with lived experience of homelessness as well, who know what the solutions are. it is about coming together and agreeing a plan of action, and it's also about agreeing kind of what the local need is, by identifying the problems and then coming up with a solution, so i think it is very doable and we know that place —ba5ed approaches work and is about understanding what is driving homelessness in the local area and thinking about what can be done to tackle it. ~ ., , ., tackle it. wore the hurdles to get over? there _ tackle it. wore the hurdles to get over? there is _ tackle it. wore the hurdles to get over? there is a _ tackle it. wore the hurdles to get over? there is a big _ tackle it. wore the hurdles to get over? there is a big one, - tackle it. wore the hurdles to getj over? there is a big one, housing su -l , over? there is a big one, housing supply. and _ over? there is a big one, housing supply. and it's — over? there is a big one, housing supply, and it's really _ over? there is a big one, housing supply, and it's really positive - over? there is a big one, housing supply, and it's really positive to | supply, and it's really positive to see that in the home mortgage

programme, launched by prince william today, there is a realfocus on genuine affordable housing being part of that five year programme, so that might be about knocking existing housing supplies, looking at how we can better use housing, it might be about conversion of stocks, but building more. i think the other barriers are thinking about what local policies need to change, that's about thinking about what at a local level is particularly problematic, for example may be an area knows there is high amounts of people leaving the care system, who are pushed into homelessness and what can be done there to kind of tackle it. it might be about working with health organisations and health professionals, because we know a lot of people leave the health system, pushed into homelessness, and it is about identifying what the local problems are and then having a shared understanding and a shared

commitment to doing something about it and relate looking at what kind of solutions can be put in place. i of solutions can be put in place. i will come to you in a second, going to read some text first, are you ready? inevitably a lot of people saying this, you really think the prince of wales can cure the problem of national homelessness? he could if he was willing to use this family plus my personal wealth, and that it can happen, simon, chasing that. this one is as good morning, is laudable that prince william was to help homeless people but surely that is the responsible day of government. if he wants to help perhaps you could sell his properties, give the money to charity. and buy to rent should be outlawed, people with money put their money and property, a cheap one comes up for sale, you reach personalise it to let and lots of landlords will make the point that that will absolutely decimate, if that's the right word, the rental

market. gary, wow, got some stats here. in cornwall there were more than 19,500 holiday let listings in june, 166 properties currently available to rent on right move and in the villages surrounding newquay, a very famous beautiful place, surfing and summer parties and fish restaurants and chardonnay, there is just one... you've got one rental property compared to 794 lights. that's extraordinary, isn't it? itrailien that's extraordinary, isn't it? when i come from. _ that's extraordinary, isn't it? when i come from, the _ that's extraordinary, isn't it? when i come from, the south-west, - that's extraordinary, isn't it? when i come from, the south-west, a - that's extraordinary, isn't it? when i come from, the south-west, a lot| i come from, the south—west, a lot of people buy second homes and a lot of people buy second homes and a lot of people buy second homes and a lot of people by homes to use for holiday lights. and the thing is, i lived in a place for three and years and all of a sudden i was given notice from my landlord to give me

six months' notice to say i'm selling up, i'm retiring, which is fair enough, but the problem with thatis fair enough, but the problem with that is i couldn't find nowhere to go. and that was two years ago. now i have lived have the week at my mothers and have to be get my girlfriends, fortunately i do work and you see the prince of wales, they own an estate on the outskirts of newquay, but they are not for the period, they are for the rich. and with house prices down here, you know, it's unbelievable. exorbitant. absolutely- — know, it's unbelievable. exorbitant. absolutely. probably _ know, it's unbelievable. exorbitant. absolutely. probably nurses - know, it's unbelievable. exorbitant. absolutely. probably nurses and - absolutely. probably nurses and doctors are _ absolutely. probably nurses and doctors are living _ absolutely. probably nurses and doctors are living in _ absolutely. probably nurses and doctors are living in cars - absolutely. probably nurses and doctors are living in cars at - absolutely. probably nurses and doctors are living in cars at the i doctors are living in cars at the moment because they can't afford prices. you can well imagine, you know. it's one of those things. yeah, they would argue that people who have those buy to let properties or those holiday homes would argue

that the person bolster the local economy, that your situation, what is it like for you feeling that ultimately fundamentally have no way of your own to live.— of your own to live. obviously as the summertime, _ of your own to live. obviously as the summertime, we _ of your own to live. obviously as the summertime, we go - of your own to live. obviously as the summertime, we go to - of your own to live. obviously as the summertime, we go to the i of your own to live. obviously as - the summertime, we go to the beach and hang around the place is new buildings being bell, apartments being built every year and you think i would love to live there, but they are well out of our price range for took about 300 for 400,000, a lot of money, isn't it? so took about 300 for 400,000, a lot of money. isn't it?— money, isn't it? so what is the answer? _ money, isn't it? so what is the answer? while, _ money, isn't it? so what is the answer? while, fundamentallyj money, isn't it? so what is the - answer? while, fundamentally they should obviously _ answer? while, fundamentally they should obviously find _ answer? while, fundamentally they should obviously find ground - answer? while, fundamentally they should obviously find ground and i should obviously find ground and build... like, small houses, houses

that... what can they do? property now is trying to find land to build on it is a nightmare. there are properties going sky high, the council doing a brand—new complex and they are being advertised... they are being bought because of investment. and the roads to these new estates, we are going to quite a big transformation at the moment with brand—new roads down here, and about ten years' time is going to be about ten years' time is going to be a fantastic place, but it's only going to be for the rich, it won't be for the pair, you know? and it's sad. it be for the pair, you know? and it's sad. . . �* be for the pair, you know? and it's sad. , , ~ . sad. it is terrible. and much in the -a ers sad. it is terrible. and much in the papers about _ sad. it is terrible. and much in the papers about the _ sad. it is terrible. and much in the papers about the property - sad. it is terrible. and much in the papers about the property price i papers about the property price crash at the moment, so i know it's crash at the moment, so i know its complex but i wonder what the implications of that will be, for good or ill. two sides to every single coin. let's listen to some

others. angelina, if you were with prince william any room, talking about homelessness, what would you learn from you? it! about homelessness, what would you learn from you?— learn from you? i'd like to stop -auttin learn from you? i'd like to stop putting interest _ learn from you? i'd like to stop putting interest rates - learn from you? i'd like to stop putting interest rates up i learn from you? i'd like to stop putting interest rates up for i learn from you? i'd like to stop putting interest rates up for a i putting interest rates up for a start because that does not end inflation, thatjust adds to, and also, i'm a pensioner. we rent accommodation and i am worried sick that they will put the rent up so high that if anything happens to my partner, i won't be able to afford to live here because i don't have enough of my pension. i feel this government needs to get off their posteriors and stop ripping the british public off, the years everything as an excuse, the war in

ukraine, covid, everything forthis government as an excuse for them to put prices up sky high. i don't want to end up like the guy on screen. outside the shop begging for money because i have not got anywhere to live. i'm in my 605, late 605. i'm scared to death. i feel this government have got enough, they are scaring people putting stuff up so high that they cannot afford anything. people will not be able to afford to live, to eat. i feel angry at the way the conservatives are treating the british public. we deserve summer to live. everyone is entitled to their _ deserve summer to live. everyone is entitled to their opinion. _ deserve summer to live. everyone is entitled to their opinion. i _ deserve summer to live. everyone is entitled to their opinion. i don't i entitled to their opinion. i don't want to live _ entitled to their opinion. i don't want to live initially _ entitled to their opinion. i don't want to live initially because i entitled to their opinion. i don't want to live initially because of| want to live initially because of the british government. flan want to live initially because of the british government. can you think that is _ the british government. can you think that is a _ the british government. can you think that is a realistic _ the british government. can you think that is a realistic outcome. we cherish all opinions. the social

housing crisis has been going on for a long, long time, but tells about your fears. a long, long time, but tells about yourfears. mi; a long, long time, but tells about your fears— a long, long time, but tells about ourfears. g . , ., , your fears. my fear is that because ou rent your fears. my fear is that because you rent accommodation, - your fears. my fear is that because you rent accommodation, i'm i your fears. my fear is that because you rent accommodation, i'm not. your fears. my fear is that because i you rent accommodation, i'm not from tidworth, i originally lived in southampton, i moved here when my mum passed away, i lost everything when i moved to tidworth. i have basically got nothing. and i don't want to go to my grave with even less than nothing. this government need to make it affordable for everybody, pensioners included, so that if we don't have a load in the bank, that we can afford, still forward somewhere to live, and a decent lifestyle. which is plenty of pensioners don't have right now. i don't want to live in rented accommodation... well, renti don't want to live in rented accommodation... well, rent i can afford. because if i'm on my own, i want somewhere that i know i am

guaranteed to be able to afford to live. i'm scared, really scared. it live. i'm scared, really scared. it is an important call, as are all voices we hear this morning. what can prince william learn from you? he is talking to 16 charities, businesses, prisons, schools, his people are and i'm sure he is as well, he said this is his life's mission. what can he learn from you? good morning. he can see and do what he says, because most of the time people say one thing and we have a different thing. i am homeless with two kids since 13th of march and i

have too many troubles in my life and how it is —— the council are supposed to help me but no. they put too much pressure on me. i am already every day going to emergency because i am not feeling well, i have to get... people have to answer what i have to do. and we are in a hotel with my kids, i have no chance to have a french. most of the time my kids go to bed hungry because we eat mcdonald's but it doesn't matter how much we eat mcdonald's and junk food every day, by night—time they say they are still hungry and need more food. it is so heartbreaking for me and my kids to have the situation and i have no idea how long it will be. and i don't know...

how... there is too much pressure being put on me. i am staying in hotel with two kids and with the same people from all, it doesn't matter where my kids are born or if my kids are british citizen, i do not have power for nothing. i am homeless and helpless as well. almost and hopeless and there is an acute housing crisis. how old are the kids? mr; acute housing crisis. how old are the kids? y acute housing crisis. how old are the kids? g , , the kids? my son is eight, my dau:hter the kids? my son is eight, my daughter is— the kids? my son is eight, my daughter is poorer, _ the kids? my son is eight, my daughter is poorer, but i the kids? my son is eight, my i daughter is poorer, but another reason which have made it more difficult, my situation, everything in my life, i don't have someone to support me. housing officer said

they cannot advise me, you have to wait two or three hours and they give to you the wrong answer and you think maybe this is the right answer but no it is the wrong answer. after one week you understand, someone gives to you the wrong answer and you have to ring again. and everything is around and around and around. and sometimes i used to go to the food bank, they are supposed to the food bank, they are supposed to give sometimes fit for us but now not any more, they say if you want to have some food you have to pay forfood, put up to have some food you have to pay for food, put up and going to have some food you have to pay forfood, put up and going to to have some food you have to pay for food, put up and going to the food bank, why pay for the food bank? did food bank, why pay for the food bank? , , ., food bank, why pay for the food bank? , y., ., food bank, why pay for the food bank? , ., ., ,, bank? did you say that you work, i didn't catch _ bank? did you say that you work, i didn't catch that. _ bank? did you say that you work, i didn't catch that. l _ bank? did you say that you work, i didn't catch that. i am _ bank? did you say that you work, i didn't catch that. i am not - bank? did you say that you work, i | didn't catch that. i am not working, i'm a single — didn't catch that. i am not working, i'm a single mum _ didn't catch that. i am not working, i'm a single mum with _ didn't catch that. i am not working, i'm a single mum with two - didn't catch that. i am not working, i'm a single mum with two kids i didn't catch that. i am not working, i'm a single mum with two kids and didn't catch that. i am not working, | i'm a single mum with two kids and i am receiving benefits, but! i'm a single mum with two kids and i am receiving benefits, but i have been affected by benefit cuts on my

rent was 1200 and housing benefit said to mejust 600, £860 and i had every month to get £350 and i could not do it and i have been evicted from my landlord but i did some different applications to get some money to give to him, but he does not change his mind. and my worker says you are intentionally homeless, doesn't matter if i was not working. she said you must find the money. i don't know the way to find the money if you have two kids, you don't have a find a way to find the money. in my opinion a lot of people working in the council are not fit for this kind ofjob because there is a lot of pressure and they do not give to us the right answer, it does not

matter, it is how it affects my life and my kids, everything. and it does not have any charity to support common organisation where you can go to talk to someone someone to. professor peter, i'm atoin to someone to. professor peter, i'm going to bring — someone to. professor peter, i'm going to bring him _ someone to. professor peter, i'm going to bring him in, _ someone to. professor peter, i'm going to bring him in, an - someone to. professor peter, i'm going to bring him in, an expert i going to bring him in, an expert involved in the development of home words, what the project is called that prince william is spearheading. these are intractable problems. we are speaking at a time when we are in danger of seeing more and more homelessness. what would... i'm sure prince william would be as chastened by evelyn am's all others is

referred as anyone, he does i'm sure kate about this deeply, remember the pictures when he was 11—year—olds visiting a homeless shelter, but what will he and those who is working with be able to do. what will they be able to do?— working with be able to do. what will they be able to do? thank you for havin: will they be able to do? thank you for having me _ will they be able to do? thank you for having me on. _ will they be able to do? thank you for having me on. i— will they be able to do? thank you for having me on. i caught - will they be able to do? thank you for having me on. i caught the i will they be able to do? thank youj for having me on. i caught the end of the call with evelina and this is the situation, today there are so many people in temporary accommodation at the moment and the context is incredibly challenging, and the reasons why folk are ending up and the reasons why folk are ending up in temporary accommodation in this way, the housing market is unaffordable, poverty rates are high, that is the context we are in and what home words are seeking to do is move upstream, try and focus on prevention and stop folk in the form is a temporary accommodation we just heard about. homewards isn't

going to be able to address all of the structural issues, not seeking to change policy and within the context we are going let's put everyone around a table that we can and the prince of wales is an incredible convening power which i've seen. some new players at the table to help us find solutions to prevent homelessness and the commitment is to do that in six areas and work through those six areas and work through those six areas to demonstrate what is possible and learn from those areas. mental health problems up and down the country are a huge part of this and you were saying that part of the problem is navigating through the system, getting someone to talk to, getting a human being on the end of the bone and finding out what you have to do and where you have to go.

kanoteh? please for example, i don't have information _ kanoteh? please for example, i don't have information on _ kanoteh? please for example, i don't have information on what _ kanoteh? please for example, i don't have information on what i _ kanoteh? please for example, i don't have information on what i have i kanoteh? ji-.~- for example, i don't have information on what i have two to. have information on what i have two to no _ have information on what i have two to no one _ have information on what i have two to. no one wants to know of my well being. _ to. no one wants to know of my well being. how— to. no one wants to know of my well being. how i — to. no one wants to know of my well being, how i am, my depression, if you say— being, how i am, my depression, if you say to — being, how i am, my depression, if you say to them i am not feeling well. _ you say to them i am not feeling well. i_ you say to them i am not feeling well, i have changed my medication for my— well, i have changed my medication for my health issue, for example, it has been _ for my health issue, for example, it has been increased, they say to me it is not— has been increased, they say to me it is not important, your well—being, it is not important your mental— well—being, it is not important your mental health. it is crazy. i can't believe — mental health. it is crazy. i can't believe i— mental health. it is crazy. i can't believe i am _ mental health. it is crazy. i can't believe i am living in the uk. this is what prince _ believe i am living in the uk. try 3 is what prince william says, isn't it? he talks about this should not be happening in a modern progressive country with such a struggling

economy but in global terms a massive economy.— economy but in global terms a massive economy. yes. everything that she has _ massive economy. yes. everything that she has described _ massive economy. yes. everything that she has described should i massive economy. yes. everything that she has described should notl massive economy. yes. everything i that she has described should not be happening. and really the goal is how do we stop this happening in the first place? talked about being in rent arrears and that being the trigger, not the cause, but that been the trigger and what homewards would be looking to do in the six areas they're working on is, how do we stop people who are facing rent arrears, because that is happening and will continue to happen, how do we work in those local areas to prevent homelessness or somebody enters into rent arrears? and that might, for instance, been working with those local landlords to develop a response is more risk supportive, works for the local authority for earlier and getting them round the table. i have to keep

repeating the goal must be to stop folk ending up in the sort of context that she is facing, and is also important that homewards has been liberal with support from folk like me, and also from people with lived experience shaping the sorts of responses that are being developed in these local coalitions are being developed.— are being developed. also, we have... are being developed. also, we have- -- too — are being developed. also, we have... too as _ are being developed. also, we have... too as they _ are being developed. also, we have... too as they are... i are being developed. also, we have... too as they are... my| are being developed. also, we i have... too as they are... my bits of paper hasjust have... too as they are... my bits of paper has just gone. janice, what would you like to see? i’m of paper hasjust gone. janice, what would you like to see?— would you like to see? i'm a psychiatric _ would you like to see? i'm a psychiatric nurse, _ would you like to see? i'm a psychiatric nurse, and i would you like to see? i'm a psychiatric nurse, and 65 i would you like to see? i'm a i psychiatric nurse, and 65 now, i noticed when i was living in warrington, i was working in a huge psychiatric hospital there and it was pulled down, there were more

people suffering on the street from mental illness and i think today thatis mental illness and i think today that is the case, a lot of the people you see on the streets are probably schizophrenic or suffering from other mental issues and i really think it might be a good idea to start building more psychiatric hospitals, it carries a lot of stigma, i know, but we should try to get beyond that, because when these people are in their being cared for and loved, there were less people on the street with psychiatric problems and i really do feel that, yes, we need to build more affordable housing, yes, when you sort out the landlords and all the renting and everything else, but i really feel that if we built more psychiatric hospitals, good ones, i really think it would help to reduce the people on the streets.— on the streets. attacking the roblem on the streets. attacking the problem we _ on the streets. attacking the problem we have, _ on the streets. attacking the problem we have, actually i on the streets. attacking the i problem we have, actually talking what they are trying to do is making

sure we don't have the problem in the first place, so touching a mental health is absolutely vital here, but also, i'm sure you'll know, there is a lot of x prisoners, a lot of x forces, sadly a lot... yes, x forces and x prisoners, we use to get a lot of x prisoners into the psychiatric hospitals as well, a lot of those suffering from psychiatric issues. and we also have the editor of the big issue. hello. below. 50 the editor of the big issue. hello. below. . , the editor of the big issue. hello. below. ., , , , the editor of the big issue. hello. below. . , , , below. so many problems here, so many issues. _ below. so many problems here, so many issues. so — below. so many problems here, so many issues, so complex, - below. so many problems here, so many issues, so complex, we i below. so many problems here, so| many issues, so complex, we heard below. so many problems here, so i many issues, so complex, we heard a bit x prisoners, you can talk about the prison system, we heard about x forces, we can talk about the psychological effect of suddenly being out there on your own, not part of the things that you belong to before, could talk about the housing crisis, the rental market, what you want to talk about? itriul’eli. housing crisis, the rental market,

what you want to talk about? well, i think the first _ what you want to talk about? well, i think the first thing _ what you want to talk about? well, i think the first thing is, _ what you want to talk about? well, i think the first thing is, the _ what you want to talk about? well, i think the first thing is, the actual- think the first thing is, the actual project _ think the first thing is, the actual project itself, the homewards project. — project itself, the homewards project, prince william has started, it's probably easy to be cynical about— it's probably easy to be cynical about it — it's probably easy to be cynical about it and there have been a couple — about it and there have been a couple of — about it and there have been a couple of voices and a couple of think— couple of voices and a couple of think she — couple of voices and a couple of think she read out the said someone with incredible wealth like that, how does— with incredible wealth like that, how does he really empathise and understand why doesn't he just get over a _ understand why doesn't he just get over a couple of palaces? which is probably— over a couple of palaces? which is probably the wrong response because in the _ probably the wrong response because in the work— and his involvement with the big issue over the years, he has shown that he desperately wants to try to not just understand that he desperately wants to try to notjust understand what to do something about the issues. as you said, they are huge and they are varied and if you just take one thread on it, that could be your life's work trying to address that, but he's going to take a step back, as the big issue has done over the years, and the ke prevention. if you can stop it before it happens... one of your callers saying she was

scared, in rental accommodation and she is scared because if rents go up, if your husband isn't there, she may at the end of her life become homeless. that is a terrible situation. this project allows people like that to stop falling into homelessness. if it prevents people from going further into the crisis... can you imagine how difficult and chaotic that is? that idea of voluntary homelessness is such a weird phrase. a5 idea of voluntary homelessness is such a weird phrase. as if anybody would put them and their children any position where they would be living any hotel or hostel, with all the anguish that brings comedy mental health problems down the years for the kids, if this project can do something about that i think it is worthwhile. but if you go back just one more step, one thing he has talked about, that william has talked about, that william has talked about, that william has talked about in all of this is the idea of housing first and the

finished programme. that works, housing first is a good project, but it needs houses, it needs homes. that is the question. going to eradicate common to homelessness in the dustpan of history as much as we can but where are these people going to have their homes? itriul’eli. can but where are these people going to have their homes?— to have their homes? well, at resent, to have their homes? well, at present, clearly _ to have their homes? well, at present, clearly there - to have their homes? well, at present, clearly there aren't i to have their homes? well, at i present, clearly there aren't enough places for them but there are some, and it is in local authority areas or at a very grassroots level. rather than top—down from government. bottom—up, local authorities from local campaigners, people's lived experience and we recognised in this area there are next number of properties not being used properly. if we can bring them back into use, get people housed in them, that is a start because there are empty properties. in city centres they need to be retrofitted

because they are empty office buildings or shops or places that are no longer habitable for one reason or another or landers are not peeping people in. at that level there are some places that they can go to but the other side of this, and i know that this is not about changing government policy, but i think they probably do need to as a next steps are talking about policy change in house—building plans and how full stop. he has already got quite a political, you can say it is at arm's length, but it is politically neutral, and he has been clear in saying that he is working with multiple parties, and it is across the spectrum. but it is political in and of itself. when you say you want to do something about something,

thatis to do something about something, that is a political act, so i think, yes, he cannot be seen to say i support one political standpoint or another, but he can say extreme poverty is wrong, homelessness is wrong, we need to do something about it, and if that coalition can do something now, that can make a government think again, that is a positive thing. government think again, that is a positive thing-— positive thing. there is also huge evidence to _ positive thing. there is also huge evidence to suggest _ positive thing. there is also huge evidence to suggest that - positive thing. there is also huge evidence to suggest that women | positive thing. there is also huge i evidence to suggest that women and children and people from ethnic minorities are disproportionately affected by this. and also, this is affected by this. and also, this is a stark stat as well, paul, that this is 2011, shelter came up with a stat that of the homeless people in this country, 62% are hidden homeless, and a lot of people would expect that, 12 years on from that, it would be a lot worse now, paul. yes, and certainly when we get

messages through to big issue, especially around christmas time, the volume of children who are in homeless accommodation with their mothers, and that is may be because of domestic abuse situations, or it may be because the mothers are the sole carers, it is heartbreaking and startling, and the idea that we are willingly accepting that that is a situation that can carry on is a shame on us as a society, i think. and you are right to indicate those figures need something done about them. it is interesting that sabrina cohen had and is one of the people who has been speaking this morning as part of this grouping, who was homeless herself when she was 16 and she sold the big issue, and she managed to get off the streets, and

it is so dangerous and damaging, but she managed to do it and is now one of the senior firefighters in britain. but at the moment, we know that this guy has fallen in on so many people. that this guy has fallen in on so many people-— that this guy has fallen in on so man --eole. . , , many people. and so many people listenin: many people. and so many people listening right _ many people. and so many people listening right now— many people. and so many people listening right now are _ many people. and so many people listening right now are worried i listening right now are worried about the future of the home they are in at the moment. thank you, paul, from the big issue. how do we end homelessness? that is what we are asking people, it would be great to hear from you are asking people, it would be great to hearfrom you if are asking people, it would be great to hear from you if you are asking people, it would be great to hearfrom you if you have something to say. more to come in the next half hour. now the news with karishma patel. a bbc investigation has led to the identification of a new suspect in the stephen lawrence murder case.

he's been publicly named for the first time as matthew white, who died two years ago. the investigation found the metropolitan police seriously mishandled key evidence relating to him. scotland yard has apologised. russia's defence minister, sergei shoigu, has appeared on state tv for the first time since the uprising by wagner mercenaries. it's not clear when the footage was recorded. wagner's leader, yevgeny prigozhin, had demanded his removal when he ordered troops to advance on moscow. an airport worker has died after being sucked into a passenger plane engine in texas. officials say it happened on friday evening, as the aircraft was taxiing towards its gate at san antonio airport. the man's employer says his death wasn't due to a safety failure, but it's still investigating what happened. prince william is launching a five—year campaign to combat homelessness, which he says should not exist in a "modern and progressive society". he's setting up projects in six locations across the uk, putting up £3 million

in start—up funds through his charitable foundation. let's head stright to trent bridge, half an hour away on a pivotal morning on the fifth and final day of the women's ashes test. eleanor oldroyd is there for us. women's cricket has been campaigning for some time for five—day test matches, and we go into this fifth day with all four results theoretically possible, although australia are firm favourites, they need only five wickets, and england need only five wickets, and england need 152 runs. danni wyatt is on 20 not out, she will be going for big scores and hits, and england say they're going to go for the win today, four points on offer for whoever wins first ashes test macro match, and we are under way at 11 o'clock. manchester city have confirmed that captain ilkay gundogan will leave

the club when his contract expires at the end of the month and will join barcelona. saracens number eight billy vunipola has had minor surgery on his injured knee as he continues his race to make the england rugby world cup squad. head coach steve borthwick names his final squad on the 7th august. and ryan reynolds and rob mcelhenney are part of an investor group taking a 24% equity stake in formula 1 team alpine.

by by the way, details of support from certain organisations grim by the way, details of support from certain organisations— certain organisations who can help ou with certain organisations who can help you with some _ certain organisations who can help you with some of— certain organisations who can help you with some of the _ certain organisations who can help you with some of the issues i certain organisations who can helpj you with some of the issues raised in our discussion on homelessness are available on the bbc action line website. because loads of disturbing stuff is coming up in what people are struggling with at the moment. paul is still with us, as is professor peter mackie, barbara is in grimsby, good morning. what do you think about this? go on. ijust you think about this? go on. i 'ust like to say — you think about this? go on. i 'ust like to say that i i you think about this? go on. i 'ust like to say that i thinki you think about this? go on. i 'ust like to say that i think what i you think about this? go on. “dist like to say that i think what prince william is doing is really good, as being a homeless family, we know what is going through a lot of people. we lived and worked above

where we lived, my partner, my daughter and i, where we lived, my partner, my daughterand i, my where we lived, my partner, my daughter and i, my partner lost his job, consequently my daughter and i had to quit, and as a consequence we were given five days to find somewhere to live. now, as we couldn't find anywhere, we were made homeless. 1, ., ., couldn't find anywhere, we were made homeless. �* ., ., ., homeless. barbara, what were those five da s homeless. barbara, what were those five days like? _ homeless. barbara, what were those five days like? they _ homeless. barbara, what were those five days like? they were _ homeless. barbara, what were those five days like? they were pure - homeless. barbara, what were those five days like? they were pure hell. l five days like? they were pure hell. t in: to five days like? they were pure hell. trying to find _ five days like? they were pure hell. trying to find anywhere _ five days like? they were pure hell. trying to find anywhere near- five days like? they were pure hell. trying to find anywhere near us - five days like? they were pure hell. trying to find anywhere near us we | trying to find anywhere near us we could rent was impossible, it was too expensive, so in the end we were given temporary accommodation miles from anywhere we know, in the middle of london, and we were there for five months, looking for places, but all that time couldn't find work, couldn't afford the rent. we were given help towards finding somewhere, but the only place we

could go was grimsby. so now i live 200 miles from anyone i know, my family, it is absolutely decimated my family. i have lost my mum, my grandad, my best friend, within eight months of each other. living here, i couldn't go to the funeral, couldn't afford to too expensive. being homeless really does break your family. being homeless really does break yourfamily. it is notjust being homeless really does break your family. it is notjust you being homeless really does break yourfamily. it is notjust you it affects, it affects everybody who you are connected with.- affects, it affects everybody who you are connected with. where do you ut our you are connected with. where do you put your head — you are connected with. where do you put your head down _ you are connected with. where do you put your head down at _ you are connected with. where do you put your head down at night? - you are connected with. where do you put your head down at night? i - you are connected with. where do you put your head down at night? i put - put your head down at night? i put m head put your head down at night? i put my head down _ put your head down at night? i put my head down at _ put your head down at night? i mt my head down at night in a house in grimsby that is three times cheaper than anywhere i could have found down south, but it means that we have to do everything on our own. we have to do everything on our own. we have no support network around us at all, and you have no idea what that does to your mental health. we have been, all three of us, on

antidepressants on and off for seven years now, something i don't think we would have done if we could have stayed down south in our family network. being homeless, it really isn'tjust network. being homeless, it really isn't just about you and those network. being homeless, it really isn'tjust about you and those who are immediately affected. it is the entire family network. b, are immediately affected. it is the entire family network.— entire family network. a point so well made. _ entire family network. a point so well made. you _ entire family network. a point so well made, you applaud - entire family network. a point so well made, you applaud prince i well made, you applaud prince william for trying to do something about this? i william for trying to do something about this? . , , ., william for trying to do something about this? . ,, ., ., ., about this? i applaud anyone who tries to do — about this? i applaud anyone who tries to do anything _ about this? i applaud anyone who tries to do anything about - about this? i applaud anyone who tries to do anything about it, - tries to do anything about it, because this government obviously doesn't know how normal, average people live, and what they have to go through just to find somewhere to live and be safe and still have a family network around them, which is so important when you have children in full—time education. we were living in grimsby, my daughter was going to college in brighton, where she had originally asked to go, and

because college couldn't find her anywhere to live and we were not there, my daughter was practically homeless while doing the college course in brighton, for over a year, and literallyjust surf course in brighton, for over a year, and literally just surf surfing, sometimes sleeping on the streets, a 17—year—old girl on her own, just terrifying, and for a parent to watch or go through that, heartbreaking. i don't know how governments can think this is acceptable forfamilies governments can think this is acceptable for families at all. tell about it is going to be quite a challenge for prince william not to stray challenge for prince william not to stra j ., . , challenge for prince william not to stra ., ., , challenge for prince william not to stra ._, , ., ., challenge for prince william not to stra ., ., , ., ., ., stray into any political arena about this. barbara, _ stray into any political arena about this. barbara, bless— stray into any political arena about this. barbara, bless you. - stray into any political arena about this. barbara, bless you. lisa, - stray into any political arena about this. barbara, bless you. lisa, i. this. barbara, bless you. lisa, i just have to say the words south london, and i think, oh, good luck with that. hi, lisa. we havejust

dropped out, just dropped off. the line just dropped out, just dropped off. the linejust dropped. we dropped out, just dropped off. the line just dropped. we will try to get that back. kimberly is there, kimberly in new malden, yeah, hi, tell us your story.— kimberly in new malden, yeah, hi, tell us your story.- how - kimberly in new malden, yeah, hi, tell us your story.- how are l tell us your story. hello? how are ou tell us your story. hello? how are you doing? _ tell us your story. hello? how are you doing? it _ tell us your story. hello? how are you doing? it is — tell us your story. hello? how are you doing? it is neatly _ tell us your story. hello? how are you doing? it is neatly here. - tell us your story. hello? how are j you doing? it is neatly here. good mornin: , you doing? it is neatly here. good morning, nicki, _ you doing? it is neatly here. good morning, nicki, oh, _ you doing? it is neatly here. good morning, nicki, oh, thank- you doing? it is neatly here. good morning, nicki, oh, thank you - you doing? it is neatly here. good morning, nicki, oh, thank you so| morning, nicki, oh, thank you so much for this programme, and howl applaud prince william for taking the steps to finally address an issue that is really impacting all of us, and we really must do something to end it. i myself am a single mum of a teenager that has just turned 18, and i have gone through domestic violence, and homelessness is such a complex topic that we have so much to deal with, but from the first i became homeless

with domestic violence, when my daughter was born six weeks early because of this, to deal with homelessness and the stress of being a new mum, to then carrying on and seeking help through social services and gp and other agencies, never really feeling heard and never really feeling heard and never really finding any resolution to what somebody must do to help keep the family together, because we tend to forget that it is one parent left, a single mum, dad is not present and does not wish to be, there is no child maintenance being paid, and so all of these different financial circumstances that have come up, that then end up impacting the single parent that is left to deal with all of this, to eventually

leading you to homelessness and, like i said, the mental health impacts for both the children and the parents left, it is just absolutely terrible. the parents left, it is 'ust absolutely terribleh the parents left, it is 'ust absolutely terrible. oh, it is so, ou absolutely terrible. oh, it is so, you known _ absolutely terrible. oh, it is so, you know... it— absolutely terrible. oh, it is so, you know... it is— absolutely terrible. oh, it is so, you know... it is heartbreaking. j absolutely terrible. oh, it is so, i you know... it is heartbreaking. so what... where are you at the moment? i am at home right now, like i am in new malden, and i am so gratefulfor the support i have received from my gp, because i am currently speaking with them about my mental health and how i am feeling and, like i say, my daughter is also going through her mental health issues. like i say, homelessness is so complex, from the parent, the father, the mother, being absent, how that alone impacts them to then use struggling to try and make ends meet with all of the

pressures of, you know, asking you to pay things that you cannot afford, i am in receipt of universal credit, and whatever we are given is not enough. to put you in the picture, i will receive £1600 and 1400 picture, i will receive £1600 and 11100 has to go to my rent, and i haven't even paid council tax or even thought about food, and by the time you go to the foodbank, if you are able to get permission from social services, from thejobcentre, because you cannotjust turn up at foodbanks and get something unless you are able to pay, even that referral service is nonexistent, and so parents are going without food just so our children can go to school with a lunch.-

just so our children can go to school with a lunch. and how is your teenauer, school with a lunch. and how is your teenager. your _ school with a lunch. and how is your teenager, your lad, _ school with a lunch. and how is your teenager, your lad, how _ school with a lunch. and how is your teenager, your lad, how is - school with a lunch. and how is your teenager, your lad, how is he...? i teenager, your lad, how is he...? she would love to hear that...! sorry, misgendered! no, she bought me a father's day presentjust gone, but like i said, we cannot hide this from our children, they know that there is a missing parent, they know that their mum or dad is struggling and they go without and do not ask us for things because they know that we are just about making it by having a roof over our head. and so it has not been good for my daughter either, she is seeking her counselling, and like i say, thank goodness that in the area i am in, children's mental health services are so prompt, and

they are really safeguarding our little ones in that respect, and i am gratefulfor little ones in that respect, and i am grateful for that at least, little ones in that respect, and i am gratefulfor that at least, until we sort out our living situation. but my goodness, always try to look for is safety and protection and security and dignity for our children and for ourselves. yeah, listen, children and for ourselves. yeah, listen. you _ children and for ourselves. yeah, listen. you are — children and for ourselves. yeah, listen, you are amazing, - children and for ourselves. yeah, listen, you are amazing, alison, | listen, you are amazing, alison, pass on my apologies to your daughterfor pass on my apologies to your daughter for saying she is a son, sorry about that! so deeply moved by your call, and we will listen to lisa as well. kimberly, what you said brilliantly is the fact that it is so complicated, we have complicated lives, all the things that happen in our lives, all of them contribute to where we are at any particular moment, and where our headis any particular moment, and where our head is as well at any particular moment, but what you said, you side

with such power, so important that you did say it. hi, lisa, we have lost the line again, but hello, nana. ., . lost the line again, but hello, nana. ., n ., lost the line again, but hello, nana. ., ., ., lost the line again, but hello, nana. ., ., . nana. hello, nicky, how are you? well, it is— nana. hello, nicky, how are you? well, it is chastening _ nana. hello, nicky, how are you? well, it is chastening hearing - nana. hello, nicky, how are you?| well, it is chastening hearing from people, truly humbling. what is your situation? , ., people, truly humbling. what is your situation? , . , ., , situation? yes, a few years back, specifically _ situation? yes, a few years back, specifically 2020, _ situation? yes, a few years back, specifically 2020, i _ situation? yes, a few years back, specifically 2020, i unfortunately| specifically 2020, i unfortunately had to seek assistance from the police and exit might marital home with my two daughters, 16 and 12 at the time. at the time, i was doing my undergrad, and i had been through a series of emotional abuse. i came from a christian background, so you are taught that you should try to

make things work when your marriage breaks up, and i tried everything, including those who counselled us before we got married. there was no assistance forthcoming, so things got out of hand, and it was something my children should not witness, and i called the police to intervene. the few days later, i went to the council and asked for assistance for accommodation. the temporary accommodation in itself, i am not an ungrateful person,, but my friends were taking his side, so the council gave us to live, and it was riddled with problems. and i tried to keep it together because of the girls. they have been trying their best to get on with life going to

university, just finishing her second year actually. and i, in the middle of this, i pushed myself further and did my postgrad, which i finished last year. now i'm actively looking for a job, i have not found one, but there is a stereotype that you have got nothing going on in your life, and ifound that you have got nothing going on in your life, and i found that quite difficult, because people find themselves in this situation because of an issue, from a life that was quote and quote normal, so it is rather unfortunate... you quote and quote normal, so it is rather unfortunate. . ._ rather unfortunate... you are soundly tainted, _ rather unfortunate... you are soundly tainted, people - rather unfortunate... you are soundly tainted, people havej soundly tainted, people have assumptions.— soundly tainted, people have assumptions. exactly, and it is really sad- _ assumptions. exactly, and it is really sad. what _ assumptions. exactly, and it is really sad. what was _ assumptions. exactly, and it is really sad. what was your - assumptions. exactly, and it is - really sad. what was your postgrad in, b the really sad. what was your postgrad in, by the way? — really sad. what was your postgrad in, by the way? law, _ really sad. what was your postgrad in, by the way? law, i— really sad. what was your postgrad in, by the way? law, i did - really sad. what was your postgrad

in, by the way? law, i did it - really sad. what was your postgrad in, by the way? law, i did it at - in, by the way? law, i did it at queen mary. _ in, by the way? law, i did it at queen mary, but _ in, by the way? law, i did it at queen mary, but i _ in, by the way? law, i did it at queen mary, but i have - in, by the way? law, i did it at queen mary, but i have been i in, by the way? law, i did it at - queen mary, but i have been through a series of very low points in my mental health, and apart from that, i have had an underlying health issue, which i have struggled with for years, and issue, which i have struggled with foryears, and i issue, which i have struggled with for years, and i have tried to seek help from the nhs, but that is another story, that issue causes me to require a shower on demand, and that has affected my mental health, because there is no water coming up to the flat, because there are pressure issues, so it is terrible, and i have written countless letters to the council to explain to them the situation i am in and to ask for them to replace that, and it has all fallen on deaf ears. you will call, you are transferred to someone, someone takes a message and says they will pass it to the relevant person. i they will pass it to the relevant erson. ., ., , , .,

person. i want to pick up some of these points. _ person. i want to pick up some of these points, then _ person. i want to pick up some of these points, then we _ person. i want to pick up some of these points, then we will - person. i want to pick up some of these points, then we will come i person. i want to pick up some of| these points, then we will come to mark in blackpool, thank you so much, nana, i mean... ithink there is still time, paul, listening to that, mental health issues, domestic violence, substandard accommodation, not being able to get through, struggles navigating the system. something that i will mention that a lot of people are mentioning, migrants contributing to homelessness, people are saying that, is it true? it is homelessness, people are saying that, is it true?— that, is it true? it is not something _ that, is it true? it is not something we _ that, is it true? it is not something we are - that, is it true? it is not l something we are seeing, that, is it true? it is not - something we are seeing, and i that, is it true? it is not _ something we are seeing, and i think it is an _ something we are seeing, and i think it is an easily— something we are seeing, and i think it is an easily trumped up story that allows certain people off the hook because they are not providing decent _ hook because they are not providing decent levels of accommodation or help for— decent levels of accommodation or help for people within their own communities anyway, so it is an easy bete noire _ communities anyway, so it is an easy bete noire to — communities anyway, so it is an easy bete noire to point the finger at and say— bete noire to point the finger at and say it— bete noire to point the finger at and say it is their fault. 0ne bete noire to point the finger at and say it is their fault. one thing i want _ and say it is their fault. one thing i want to— and say it is their fault. one thing i want to do— and say it is their fault. one thing i want to do so, i think shows like

this, _ i want to do so, i think shows like this, yours. — i want to do so, i think shows like this, yours, are so important and so good, _ this, yours, are so important and so good, and _ this, yours, are so important and so good, and they show the reality of homelessness in britain today, because — homelessness in britain today, because it is notjust, although at the sharp— because it is notjust, although at the sharp end of it hit is clearly people — the sharp end of it hit is clearly people who are rough sleeping and having _ people who are rough sleeping and having to _ people who are rough sleeping and having to go through that, but it is all the _ having to go through that, but it is all the invisible bits that people tend not— all the invisible bits that people tend not to say, and you have had so nrany— tend not to say, and you have had so many articulate people talking about it, whether it is going to a system that seems— it, whether it is going to a system that seems ranged against them, whether— that seems ranged against them, whether it is because of one act of something — whether it is because of one act of something that happened, a job as last and _ something that happened, a job as last and they are forced to move 200 miles— last and they are forced to move 200 miles from _ last and they are forced to move 200 miles from their network, you can 'ust miles from their network, you can just see _ miles from their network, you can just see all— miles from their network, you can just see all these elements that make _ just see all these elements that make up— just see all these elements that make up homelessness in britain today, _ make up homelessness in britain today, it — make up homelessness in britain today, it is — make up homelessness in britain today, it is something that we at the big _ today, it is something that we at the big issue now, we hear this every— the big issue now, we hear this every week, and we try and draw attention— every week, and we try and draw attention to it and do something about— attention to it and do something about it. — attention to it and do something about it, and although william's organisation, his coalition is not going _ organisation, his coalition is not going to — organisation, his coalition is not going to resolve all of this, particularly the stuff around mental

health. _ particularly the stuff around mental health. it _ particularly the stuff around mental health, it is not going to resolve all of— health, it is not going to resolve all of that, — health, it is not going to resolve all of that, but it is trying to do something, using his presence and power— something, using his presence and power to— something, using his presence and power to do something, perhaps even to embarrass the government to do something — to embarrass the government to do somethina. ~ ., something. well, there we are, stra inc something. well, there we are, straying into — something. well, there we are, straying into political _ something. well, there we are, straying into political territory, | straying into political territory, some people saying, you go, william, but others will say he is in touch with organisations will articulate all of that necessary. hear from someone else, i want to hear from michael in manchester, the other point, amidst all the other things, the litany of problems, is a substance abuse as well. but anyway, michael, good morning, we have got about five minutes, i will have to cut you off at the end. tell us your story. i

cut you off at the end. tell us your sto . ., ., cut you off at the end. tell us your sto . . . , . ., 4' story. i am a very hard-working human being — story. i am a very hard-working human being from _ story. i am a very hard-working human being from manchester, story. i am a very hard-working. human being from manchester, i story. i am a very hard-working - human being from manchester, i have worked to be one of the top fundraisers in the uk on behalf of unicef and the british red cross, i was a footballer, and i launched my president putin made with his legal arm a ation, his president putin made with his legal arm a footballer, and i launched old clothing brand, and i was moving because i could foresee that my rent was very high in brighton, so i contacted the council and asked if they would be able to assist me with what is called a discretionary housing payment, iwas what is called a discretionary housing payment, i was living in horsham, close to brighton, they were very good and assisted me with £1000 to move houses, and i said, if you move back to manchester, we will try and assist you. i said i'm going back to manchester in 12 weeks, that will give me time to get a job and find accommodation that is smaller and more reasonable, but when i got to manchester with all my stuff, i have got two very big dogs, and i was told that the council in horsham should have informed me that they manchester council have a massive

housing crisis and i would have been better off there. that made me end “p better off there. that made me end up being in a hostel, sleeping rough in manchester city centre, sleeping in manchester city centre, sleeping in doorways with my dogs, and the council have got very good things set up. there was a place where you could go and get a shower in the evening, some food, and there was a brilliant place that would help you get temporary accommodation, but the big thing that i seen is they prioritise a lot of the wrong people, and they prioritise a lot of people, and they prioritise a lot of people that are in substance abuse, and people like myself that worked or not seen as a priority. then after staying in a hotel, i was told i have to go and sleep outside on the streets for them to put me in a hostel. so from staying in temporary accommodation, i had to go and sleep rough for the council to be able to say that i was really sleeping rough on the streets. did say that i was really sleeping rough on the streets.— say that i was really sleeping rough on the streets. did you say you were a footballer? — on the streets. did you say you were a footballer? i _ on the streets. did you say you were a footballer? i used _ on the streets. did you say you were a footballer? i used to _ on the streets. did you say you were a footballer? i used to play - on the streets. did you say you were a footballer? i used to play for - a footballer? i used to play for

manchester — a footballer? i used to play for manchester city _ a footballer? i used to play for manchester city as _ a footballer? i used to play for manchester city as a _ a footballer? i used to play for manchester city as a youth, i a footballer? i used to play for. manchester city as a youth, and a footballer? i used to play for i manchester city as a youth, and i captained a lot of people that you may now, that i see on your show, but i am a hard—working person, and i am really having problems with homelessness, and how easy it is, in this current climate, to become homeless from working. this time last year, i was working 17 hours a day, six days a week. so it has not been... i heard your show this morning and thought i would like to share my story. morning and thought i would like to share my story-— morning and thought i would like to share my story. thank you so much, simon and — share my story. thank you so much, simon and ilchester _ share my story. thank you so much, simon and ilchester as _ share my story. thank you so much, simon and ilchester as well, - share my story. thank you so much, simon and ilchester as well, hi, - simon and ilchester as well, hi, simon. . simon and ilchester as well, hi, simon._ again, - simon and ilchester as well, hi, simon._ again, we - simon and ilchester as well, hi, | simon._ again, we are simon. hi, nicky. again, we are edrain simon. hi, nicky. again, we are edging towards _ simon. hi, nicky. again, we are edging towards 11 _ simon. hi, nicky. again, we are edging towards 11 o'clock, - simon. hi, nicky. again, we are edging towards 11 o'clock, but i l edging towards 11 o'clock, but i think it is important to hearfrom you, and i know you were evicted in a no—fault eviction with four kids, what is life like? it a no-fault eviction with four kids, what is life like?— what is life like? it was terrible, if i am honest _ what is life like? it was terrible, if i am honest with _ what is life like? it was terrible, if i am honest with you. - what is life like? it was terrible, ifi am honest with you. so, - what is life like? it was terrible, l ifi am honest with you. so, yeah, what is life like? it was terrible, i if! am honest with you. so, yeah, i if i am honest with you. so, yeah, i think— if i am honest with you. so, yeah, i think no-fault — if i am honest with you. so, yeah, i think no—fault evictions are a huge part of— think no—fault evictions are a huge part of this — think no—fault evictions are a huge part of this homelessness problem.

you know. — part of this homelessness problem. you know, being evicted for a reason is you know, being evicted fora reason is fair— you know, being evicted for a reason is fair enough, but twice our landlord _ is fair enough, but twice our landlord said they wanted to sell the house, fair play, we were evicted. — the house, fair play, we were evicted, found it very difficult to -et evicted, found it very difficult to get any — evicted, found it very difficult to get any help from there on, really, and we _ get any help from there on, really, and we later found out that they put it back _ and we later found out that they put it back on _ and we later found out that they put it back on the market to let for more _ it back on the market to let for more money. so it was a moneymaking scheme _ more money. so it was a moneymaking scheme for— more money. so it was a moneymaking scheme for them, but the knock—on effect _ scheme for them, but the knock—on effect meant that my family got split up, — effect meant that my family got split up, we went through six months of really— split up, we went through six months of really quite tough times, to be honest _ of really quite tough times, to be honest. there was very little in the form _ honest. there was very little in the form of _ honest. there was very little in the form of a _ honest. there was very little in the form of a safety net to fall back on, form of a safety net to fall back on. the — form of a safety net to fall back on, the council didn't want to know, we got _ on, the council didn't want to know, we got told — on, the council didn't want to know, we got told they had nothing. it's kind of— we got told they had nothing. it's kind of felt like we had done something wrong, but we knew full well it _ something wrong, but we knew full well it was— something wrong, but we knew full well it was a no—fault eviction and well it was a no—fault eviction and we hadn't — well it was a no—fault eviction and we hadn't done anything wrong. it had a _ we hadn't done anything wrong. it had a huge — we hadn't done anything wrong. it had a huge impact on the children, ranging _ had a huge impact on the children, ranging from two, well, there was three _ ranging from two, well, there was three at—

ranging from two, well, there was three at a — ranging from two, well, there was three at a point, but my eldest has been _ three at a point, but my eldest has been made — three at a point, but my eldest has been made homeless twice because landlords— been made homeless twice because landlords kicked us out. we have always _ landlords kicked us out. we have always paid our rent and worked, we never— always paid our rent and worked, we never upset — always paid our rent and worked, we never upset anyone or had any complaints. but it seems that the landlords— complaints. but it seems that the landlords have all the power and all the rights, — landlords have all the power and all the rights, and the courts allowed it and _ the rights, and the courts allowed it and 0k — the rights, and the courts allowed it and 0k it— the rights, and the courts allowed it and 0k it and sanctioned it. thank— it and 0k it and sanctioned it. thank you. _ it and 0k it and sanctioned it. thank you, simon, thank you very much indeed. loads of issues which we will address, as we always do, particularly in separately, but prince william has made it his life mission. live from london, this is bbc news. after russia releases pictures of its defence minister, his first appearance since the weekend's rebellion, there's sharp criticism of putin's leadership from nato. and yet in another demonstration of the big strategic mistake that president putin made with his legal

annexation, his