of ethics of it, the effectiveness of it, the reality and politics of it? will it ever happen? if you are willing to get into a flimsy boat with no life jacket after paying people smugglers, would rwanda be on your radar at all? however, 16,000 people came on boats last year, the prime minister says it is this country and your government who should decide who comes here, not criminal gangs. many of you do agree, you think it is unsustainable and immoral, not stopping people smugglers. i mean, who disagrees with that? and of course there are those who think that these people do not deserve to be here. should the government stick with its rwanda plan? let's hear what you think, get in touch.

here is the news from al tansley. the government will set out its plans today for a major expansion of the nhs workforce in england. the 15—year strategy includes more university places for medical students, new apprenticeship schemes and a consultation on shortening degree courses. french authorities say nearly 700 people have now been arrested after a third night of violent protests in paris and other major cities. it's after a police officer fatally shot a 17—year—old boy of algerian and moroccan descent on tuesday. energy bills are likely to stay high for the foreseeable future — that's the warning from chris o'shea, the boss of centrica, which owns british gas. a new price cap comes into effect this weekend which will see households pay an average of £2,074 a year — still £800 more than two years ago. and new figures show house prices were down 3.5% in the year to june. but nationwide building society said month—on—month prices were up —

despite predictions they'd fall. so, yeah, rwanda, should the government stick to its plan? two of the threejudges at government stick to its plan? two of the three judges at the high court yesterday considered that the asylum system was not appropriate in rwanda and there was a danger people would be sent back to countries to which they should not be sent. they said rwanda had not done enough to prove it is a safe third country. and i would be possible of human rights being breached. the home secretary, suella braverman, so she was disappointed with the ruling and will appeal against it. she said that she and rishi sunak will keep their promise of stopping the boats, one of the conservatives microfibre aid pledges, of course, and she says

the system is rigged against the british people. that is you! what do you think? and the prime minister says, it is worth reiterating, it is this country and your government who should decide who comes here, not criminal gangs. 0n the other side, labour's yvette cooper said the plan is completely unravelling, described it as unworkable, unethical and extortionately expensive. kevin saunders, former chief immigration officerfor uk border saunders, former chief immigration officer for uk border office 2006-16, he officer for uk border office 2006—16, he has been there and done it, good morning. and harjap bhangal, immigration lawyer, nice to speak to you again. veronica is in portsmouth, let's go straight with a caller, what do you think? should i press on? hello, veronica, are you there? we have just lost out, the line has dropped! kevin, what do you think?— what do you think? well, the government _ what do you think? well, the government needs _ what do you think? well, the

government needs to - what do you think? well, the government needs to press | what do you think? well, the i government needs to press on. what do you think? well, the - government needs to press on. the judgment wasjust one government needs to press on. the judgment was just one tiny little bit that they didn't agree on, and that was that rwanda wasn't a safe country because they thought that the rwandan government could send the rwandan government could send the people back to where they came from. which you cannot, because they do not have documents and rwanda has no agreement with anybody to send anybody anywhere, so the judgment would seem to be flawed. now, i'm not a lawyer, but to somebodyjust looking at that time knowing how to do the job, it looking at that time knowing how to do thejob, it looks looking at that time knowing how to do the job, it looks a little looking at that time knowing how to do thejob, it looks a little bit flawed there. do the job, it looks a little bit flawed there.— do the job, it looks a little bit flawed there. ~ . ., flawed there. what about the... oh, some breaking _ flawed there. what about the... oh, some breaking news! _ flawed there. what about the. .. 0h, some breaking news! i— flawed there. what about the... oh, some breaking news! i will- flawed there. what about the... oh, some breaking news! i willjust - some breaking news! i willjust bring you this. zac goldsmith has just resigned as the minister for

international environment, he was heavily criticised by the privileges committee in the report yesterday, criticism of the privilege committee, and he was the only person in the report, on the government payroll. he hasjust posted his resignation letter on twitter, it says, it has been a privilege to have been able to make a difference to be because i have been committed to for as long as i remember, but this government's apathy in the face of the greatest challenge we face major continuing in my role untenable. reluctantly, i am therefore stepping down. what is he talking about? very possibly the environment and climate change, but of course, as i mentioned him he was one of those people criticised yesterday, named by the privileges committee, along with nadine dorries and borisjohnson and brendan clarke—smith and others in the house of commons and house of lords, more on that when we get it. i'm so sorry, kevin, interrupted you with

that breaking news. what about the ethics of it, the morality of it, and the practicality of it? if you look at the numbers, rwanda says it can process 1000 people over the five—year period. that is 200 a year. it is a gesture. five-year period. that is 200 a year. it is a gesture.— year. it is a gesture. yes, they have said _ year. it is a gesture. yes, they have said that _ year. it is a gesture. yes, they have said that originally. - year. it is a gesture. yes, they have said that originally. they| year. it is a gesture. yes, they - have said that originally. they have now said they can process more. it is all really going to depend on how much money we give them, let's be honest, this is a money thing. we need to press on, because rwanda is the only deterrent that will stop people coming across the channel, because they won't want to pay the smugglers' fees just to be because they won't want to pay the smugglers' feesjust to be put because they won't want to pay the smugglers' fees just to be put on an aeroplane and flown back to where they started from. so it will act as a deterrent. so that is why we must push on with it. mb? a deterrent. so that is why we must push on with it— push on with it. why would it act as a deterrent. — push on with it. why would it act as a deterrent, as _ push on with it. why would it act as a deterrent, as i _ push on with it. why would it act as a deterrent, as i said _ push on with it. why would it act as a deterrent, as i said in _ push on with it. why would it act as a deterrent, as i said in the - a deterrent, as i said in the opener, if you are willing to get onto a flimsy boat with no life

jacket and pay people smugglers a lot of money, knowing that 115,000 have come across last year, the chances of you being sent to rwanda are pretty slim, and you have risked everything anyway? the are pretty slim, and you have risked everything anyway?— are pretty slim, and you have risked everything anyway? the chances are that they will _ everything anyway? the chances are that they will take _ everything anyway? the chances are that they will take people _ everything anyway? the chances are that they will take people off - everything anyway? the chances are that they will take people off to - that they will take people off to rwanda now. but that they will take people off to rwanda now-— that they will take people off to rwanda now. �* , u, �* ., rwanda now. but they can't handle... richt, rwanda now. but they can't handle... riht, 0k, rwanda now. but they can't handle... right. ok. i— rwanda now. but they can't handle... right. 0k, iwill— rwanda now. but they can't handle... right, ok, | will stay _ rwanda now. but they can't handle... right, ok, i will stay out _ rwanda now. but they can't handle... right, ok, i will stay out of— rwanda now. but they can't handle... right, ok, i will stay out of it, - right, ok, i will stay out of it, what would you say, harjap bhangal? it may act as part of a deterrent, but it_ it may act as part of a deterrent, but it is— it may act as part of a deterrent, but it is not— it may act as part of a deterrent, but it is not going to deter 40,000 people. _ but it is not going to deter 40,000 people, knowing there is only 500 spaces _ people, knowing there is only 500 spaces. rwanda can in no way taken 50,000 _ spaces. rwanda can in no way taken 50,000 people a year. in fact, if we work— 50,000 people a year. in fact, if we work it_ 50,000 people a year. in fact, if we work it out— 50,000 people a year. in fact, if we work it out at — 50,000 people a year. in fact, if we work it out at the cost of £170,000 per person. — work it out at the cost of £170,000 per person, and 11,000 have come so far, per person, and 11,000 have come so far. that _ per person, and 11,000 have come so far, that would be, to remove just 11,000, _ far, that would be, to remove just 11,000, six — far, that would be, to remove just 11,000, six monthsarrivals, which cost nearly— 11,000, six monthsarrivals, which cost nearly £2 billion and would

take 22 — cost nearly £2 billion and would take 22 years. so the gangs are going _ take 22 years. so the gangs are going to — take 22 years. so the gangs are going to know this, and like i said, if drowning — going to know this, and like i said, if drowning at sea with your family, and that_ if drowning at sea with your family, and that is— if drowning at sea with your family, and that is a — if drowning at sea with your family, and that is a risk, and that happens. _ and that is a risk, and that happens, is not a deterrent to these people. _ happens, is not a deterrent to these people, then the chances of one in 10,000 _ people, then the chances of one in 10,000 of— people, then the chances of one in 10,000 of being sent to rwanda is not going — 10,000 of being sent to rwanda is not going to deter these people. and also, the _ not going to deter these people. and also, the fact regarding the ruling was that— also, the fact regarding the ruling was that israel tried something similar. — was that israel tried something similar, with rwanda, sending refugees— similar, with rwanda, sending refugees to rwanda, and when someone back after— refugees to rwanda, and when someone back after a _ refugees to rwanda, and when someone back after a few years, they only found _ back after a few years, they only found one — back after a few years, they only found one person out of the original lot was— found one person out of the original lot was still— found one person out of the original lot was still in rwanda, they have been _ lot was still in rwanda, they have been trafficked again, trying to come _ been trafficked again, trying to come to— been trafficked again, trying to come to mainland europe again or sent back — come to mainland europe again or sent back. so what the government should _ sent back. so what the government should have done yesterday, and it is on _ should have done yesterday, and it is on the _ should have done yesterday, and it is on the government, and suella braverman — is on the government, and suella braverman is a lawyer, she has been a lawyer— braverman is a lawyer, she has been a lawyer for— braverman is a lawyer, she has been a lawyer for 20 years, she was one of the _ a lawyer for 20 years, she was one of the top — a lawyer for 20 years, she was one of the top lawyers in this country, she was— of the top lawyers in this country, she was attorney general, was she not? _ she was attorney general, was she not? surety—

she was attorney general, was she not? surely when you run a case through— not? surely when you run a case through the courts as a lawyer, your 'ob through the courts as a lawyer, your job is— through the courts as a lawyer, your job is to _ through the courts as a lawyer, your job is to make it watertight, as watertight as possible. you know the judges _ watertight as possible. you know the judges are _ watertight as possible. you know the judges are going to be there, because _ judges are going to be there, because you have probably stood in front of— because you have probably stood in front of them at some stage. you have _ front of them at some stage. you have got— front of them at some stage. you have got colleagues you have worked with for— have got colleagues you have worked with for 20 _ have got colleagues you have worked with for 20 years, you can run it past _ with for 20 years, you can run it past them — with for 20 years, you can run it past them - _ with for 20 years, you can run it past them — pick holes in my case, i wanted _ past them — pick holes in my case, i wanted to— past them — pick holes in my case, i wanted to go— past them — pick holes in my case, i wanted to go through. 0n past them — pick holes in my case, i wanted to go through. on top of that, _ wanted to go through. on top of that, suella braverman has an army of home _ that, suella braverman has an army of home office lawyers to look at the legislation, she should have covered — the legislation, she should have covered her bases and then run it through. — covered her bases and then run it through, ratherthan think, let's tryto— through, ratherthan think, let's try to run— through, ratherthan think, let's try to run it— through, ratherthan think, let's try to run it through before a general— try to run it through before a general election and see if i can win _ general election and see if i can win. . . ., , , ., win. that is the legality, but what ou think win. that is the legality, but what you think about _ win. that is the legality, but what you think about the _ win. that is the legality, but what you think about the morality? - win. that is the legality, but what i you think about the morality? what is your view on that?— you think about the morality? what is your view on that? everyone has a ri . ht to is your view on that? everyone has a right to protect _ is your view on that? everyone has a right to protect their _ is your view on that? everyone has a right to protect their borders, - right to protect their borders, every— right to protect their borders, every country has a right to do that, _ every country has a right to do that, and _ every country has a right to do that, and rishi sunak's statement was telling yesterday. his statement said that _ was telling yesterday. his statement said that this country should dictate — said that this country should dictate who comes into this country, not criminat— dictate who comes into this country, not criminal gangs. well, catch the criminal— not criminal gangs. well, catch the criminal gangs, then! surely, if you want— criminal gangs, then! surely, if you

want to— criminal gangs, then! surely, if you want to stop— criminal gangs, then! surely, if you want to stop drug dealing, you don't lock users— want to stop drug dealing, you don't lock users up. you want to stop drug dealing, you don't lock users up-_ lock users up. you break the business _ lock users up. you break the business model. _ lock users up. you break the business model. you - lock users up. you break the business model. you don't l lock users up. you break the - business model. you don't hope that lockin: business model. you don't hope that locking drug — business model. you don't hope that locking drug users _ business model. you don't hope that locking drug users up _ business model. you don't hope that locking drug users up will— business model. you don't hope that locking drug users up will make - business model. you don't hope that locking drug users up will make drugj locking drug users up will make drug dealing _ locking drug users up will make drug dealing stop, this is what the rwanda — dealing stop, this is what the rwanda plan is, hoping that people smuggling. , and that is not going to happen, — smuggling. , and that is not going to happen, so until you go out and make _ to happen, so until you go out and make elite — to happen, so until you go out and make elite units to catch these gangs. — make elite units to catch these gangs, that money, £170,000 per person, — gangs, that money, £170,000 per person, you — gangs, that money, £170,000 per person, you are better off offering it to french — person, you are better off offering it to french locals on the coast and saying. _ it to french locals on the coast and saying. we — it to french locals on the coast and saying, we will give you ten grand if you _ saying, we will give you ten grand if you dob — saying, we will give you ten grand if you dob your local gang in all your— if you dob your local gang in all your information leads to the arrest of a gang _ your information leads to the arrest of a gang. you would have more of a success _ of a gang. you would have more of a success in_ of a gang. you would have more of a success in putting these gangs away, advertising _ success in putting these gangs away, advertising on tiktok!— advertising on tiktok! kevin, come back quicker _ advertising on tiktok! kevin, come back quicker and _ advertising on tiktok! kevin, come back quicker and that, _ advertising on tiktok! kevin, come back quicker and that, lots - advertising on tiktok! kevin, come back quicker and that, lots of - back quicker and that, lots of callers, great you have got in touch, the supreme court of public opinion, and just to clarify, the high court approved the system, this plan, the appeal court overturned the decision. a lot of courts involved, but the most important of

all is coming up. involved, but the most important of all is coming up-_ all is coming up. yes, i am sorry, nic , all is coming up. yes, i am sorry, nicky. you _ all is coming up. yes, i am sorry, nicky. you dropped _ all is coming up. yes, i am sorry, nicky, you dropped out, - all is coming up. yes, i am sorry, nicky, you dropped out, so - all is coming up. yes, i am sorry, nicky, you dropped out, so i - all is coming up. yes, i am sorry, i nicky, you dropped out, so i missed quite a bit of what you actually said, unfortunately. buti quite a bit of what you actually said, unfortunately. but i think hadap said, unfortunately. but i think harjap was talking about the criminal gangs? well, he is dead right, criminal gangs are a huge problem. we are not tackling them as well as we should. it is astonishing that the criminal gangs seem to know exactly what we and the french are going to do before we even do it. this business about the vessels, the boats that are getting into the water, despite us paying the french god knows how much money, they are stopping just over half, but even so, you would have thought come up with the amount of money we have paid them and the combined intelligence services of france and the uk, we should be doing an awful lot more on stopping the gangs.

let's go with our callers, catherine and ealing, veronica in portsmouth, there will be many more, many more there will be many more, many more there will be many more, many more there will be, speeding medieval english all of a sudden! catherine, what you think? is this nick that i'm speaking to? yes, if you to say that! . ~ . ~ i'm speaking to? yes, if you to say that! w a ., i'm speaking to? yes, if you to say that! w w ., that! nick! nick! i have something to sa . that! nick! nick! i have something to say- we — that! nick! nick! i have something to say- we are— that! nick! nick! i have something to say. we are receiving _ that! nick! nick! i have something to say. we are receiving criminal. to say. we are receiving criminal gangs in the uk. why would we receive criminal gangs and send them to rwanda? yeah? a country that is struggling, a country that has got human rights. now, we are talking about africa. i am an african. there is no human rights in africa. if they are caught, the locals will tell them straightaway. there is no

prison. 0nce someone rapes a child, they are stoned to death by locals. what, in rwanda? can we a bit more specific? we are talking about loads of different countries, loads of different systems... ida. of different countries, loads of different systems. . ._ of different countries, loads of different systems... no, no, it is the same- _ different systems... no, no, it is the same- all — different systems... no, no, it is the same. all africa _ different systems... no, no, it is the same. all africa is _ different systems... no, no, it is the same. all africa is the - different systems... no, no, it is the same. all africa is the same. these people are going to get killed! ~ ~ ., ., ., ., killed! well, i know a lot of... they will _ killed! well, i know a lot of... they will get _ killed! well, i know a lot of... they will get killed! _ killed! well, i know a lot of... they will get killed! why - killed! well, i know a lot of... they will get killed! why am | killed! well, i know a lot of... they will get killed! why am i | they will get killed! why am i here?! 0k, they are criminals, why would you receive criminals?

he has given his reasons for resignation is somewhat different. there is quite a lot going on here, first of all, we should remind people he is a big ally of boris johnson, he criticised the committee that was inquiring into whether borisjohnson had misled or lied to parliament, they criticised him for basically going public and agreeing that they were a kangaroo court. that is the backdrop to some of this. the liberal democrats said, look, hang on, he is a serving

government minister, rishi sunak should sack him. he did not, and in fact number ten said that they had full confidence in zac goldsmith, but it turns out today that he does not have full confidence in number ten, and certainly not in the prime minister. in his resignation letter, it doesn't mention the privileges committee, it mentions what he says are broken commitments on the environment, he is in the house of lords, but part of his job as a foreign office minister is the international climate and the environment, and he says, and i quote from his letter, because this is a real parting shot at rishi sunak, prime minister, he says, having been able to get so much done previously, i'm struggling to hold the line, and he says that rishi sunak is not so much hostile to the environment as uninterested. he also said that the uk loses its reputation as a leader on climate and nature, and he accuses the

government of going back on a promise to spend more on aid. so there are policy differences, clearly come up with the prime minister, and also personal criticism of the prime minister, but in addition to that, look at the timing, rishi sunak is unveiling a big policy announcement at lunchtime, holding a press conference, talking about extra investment, more staff into the nhs, and he hasjust lost a government minister that he had only yesterday defended and that, quite frankly, in the eyes of the opposition at least, may be in the eyes of boris johnson's allies too, will make him look weak. i johnson's allies too, will make him look weak. . . ., .,. look weak. i have encountered zac goldsmith, — look weak. i have encountered zac goldsmith, because _ look weak. i have encountered zac goldsmith, because one _ look weak. i have encountered zac goldsmith, because one of - look weak. i have encountered zac goldsmith, because one of my - look weak. i have encountered zac i goldsmith, because one of my great passions is animal welfare, animal rights, and i worked a lot, so lay my cards on the table with the campaign to ban ivory and the slaughter of elephants in africa, and he was part of that, and i know he's very passionate about these things, and of course the government

has been much criticised for, as some say it, kept animals bill and all the promises in the 2019 manifesto, driven by borisjohnson, who has similar interests. and there was also criticism this week, wasn't there, ian, that we are in danger of losing or have lost our pole position is one of the leading countries, if not the leading country, in the race for net zero and in the fight against climate change? so there is that, many people will argue there is a lot of validity in those arguments, but as you say, the timing. the validity in those arguments, but as you say, the timing.— you say, the timing. the timing is the extraordinary _ you say, the timing. the timing is the extraordinary issue, _ you say, the timing. the timing is the extraordinary issue, because l the extraordinary issue, because presumably he could have resigned at any time, when he was criticised by the privileges committee, when, you know, mps had decided to back the suspension of borisjohnson, suspension of boris johnson, pre—empted suspension of borisjohnson, pre—empted only by his own resignation, we could have said, as you mentioned, nicky, they kept animals bill, something about which there is a lot of concern on

conservative benches, because they think the current administration seesit think the current administration sees it as a peripheral issue, but borisjohnson, carriejohnson as boris johnson, carrie johnson as well, borisjohnson, carriejohnson as well, good friends of zac goldsmith, they all backed that, so these concerns were bubbling along, but if you want to do maximum damage to be prime minister, then i think you stick the knife injust prime minister, then i think you stick the knife in just after he has defended you and before he is about to try and talk to an important flagship policy, also part of his five pledges to cut nhs waiting lists down, and that is undoubtedly going to be, if not overshadowed, there will be questions put to the prime minister about the loss of zac goldsmith after four years in that role, as you say, notjust on the environment and nature, everything from animals to climate change, and he says that the current conservative government has lost its role in international leadership on the issues. . . role in international leadership on the issues-— role in international leadership on the issues. ., ., the issues. stealing the thunder, as ou sa , the issues. stealing the thunder, as you say. on — the issues. stealing the thunder, as you say. on rishi —

the issues. stealing the thunder, as you say, on rishi sunak's— the issues. stealing the thunder, as you say, on rishi sunak's paid - the issues. stealing the thunder, as you say, on rishi sunak's paid nhs| you say, on rishi sunak's paid nhs announcement, and we will be discussing that policy and talking about the work issues in the nhs, and also, positively, the wonderful things about the nhs from people who work there. but as i say, stealing his thunder here, i think it is important to mention this, he has many times extolled the virtues of borisjohnson, hasn't he, goldsmith? yes, he is very close to boris johnson, he is the failed conservative candidate for for london mayor after borisjohnson, he was ennobled, sent to the house of lords after losing his parliamentary seat, and was put into government from that position, so very close to borisjohnson, and there's clearly some substance to what he's saying in terms of his criticisms of the current government, but very interesting timing. i have invited

him to come onto the bbc and tell us why he is resigning on this very morning, and he hasn't yet responded, but if you do so, probably better to speak to him than to me! i probably better to speak to him than to me! . ~ probably better to speak to him than to me! ., ,, to me! i will text him! thank you very much. _ to me! i will text him! thank you very much, we'll _ to me! i will text him! thank you very much, we'll see _ to me! i will text him! thank you very much, we'll see how- to me! i will text him! thank you very much, we'll see how we - to me! i will text him! thank you very much, we'll see how we getj to me! i will text him! thank you - very much, we'll see how we get on. like you very much, iain watson. where were we? rwanda, should be cut plough on and stick to its plans? we were talking to catherine in ealing, maybe we have lost her? we will try to get her back if we can. it was a conversation about a very important issue with iain watson, but veronica issue with iain watson, but veronica is in plymouth, harjap is still with us, veronica, good morning to you, what do you think? should they carry on? hi. what do you think? should they carry on? . " ., what do you think? should they carry on? . “ ., ~ what do you think? should they carry on? . .. ., ., , on? hi, nicky. i know! have been waitin: a on? hi, nicky. i know! have been waiting a long _ on? hi, nicky. i know! have been waiting a long time _ on? hi, nicky. i know! have been waiting a long time but... - on? hi, nicky. i know! have been waiting a long time but... sorry, l waiting a long time but... sorry, sor , waiting a long time but... sorry, sorry. sorry! _ waiting a long time but... sorry, sorry, sorry! that's _ waiting a long time but... sorry, sorry, sorry! that's ok. -

waiting a long time but... sorry, sorry, sorry! that's ok. no, - waiting a long time but... sorry, | sorry, sorry! that's ok. no, they should scrap _ sorry, sorry! that's ok. no, they should scrap this _ sorry, sorry! that's ok. no, they should scrap this rwanda - sorry, sorry! that's ok. no, they i should scrap this rwanda campaign completely. ignore the money situation, it is immoral and inhumane, and the focus should be primarily on opening up safe passages for these people to use, because i don't think they exist. and working with the french and the rest of the eu to curb the people traffickers and stop them moving people around. it is disgusting. disgusting!_ disgusting! they language the government _ disgusting! they language the government is _ disgusting! they language the government is using - disgusting! they language the government is using to - disgusting! they language the - government is using to criminalise these migrants is just government is using to criminalise these migrants isjust abhorrent, it makes me feel sick, it is horrid. i was listening to suella braverman on the telly yesterday, and i was just shouting at the telly, because she is just a vile person, absolutely vile. isjust a vile person, absolutely vile. ., ., ., ., ., isjust a vile person, absolutely vile. ., . ., . . . vile. you are not a fan. so what about the _ vile. you are not a fan. so what about the word _ vile. you are not a fan. so what about the word used, _ vile. you are not a fan. so what about the word used, morality, | vile. you are not a fan. so what - about the word used, morality, you think it is immoral, this, don't

you? think it is immoral, this, don't ou? . . think it is immoral, this, don't ou? , ., , think it is immoral, this, don't ou? . ., , ., you? yes, i mean, these people are fleein: you? yes, i mean, these people are fleeing persecution _ you? yes, i mean, these people are fleeing persecution and, _ you? yes, i mean, these people are fleeing persecution and, you - you? yes, i mean, these people are fleeing persecution and, you know, | fleeing persecution and, you know, in fear of their lives, you know? they should not be treated this way. they should not be treated this way. they should not be treated this way. they should just not be treated this way, we are in the 21st century for christ's sake, nicky.— way, we are in the 21st century for christ's sake, nicky. kevin, respond to veronica — christ's sake, nicky. kevin, respond to veronica on _ christ's sake, nicky. kevin, respond to veronica on the _ christ's sake, nicky. kevin, respond to veronica on the morality. - christ's sake, nicky. kevin, respond to veronica on the morality. i - christ's sake, nicky. kevin, respond to veronica on the morality. i think| to veronica on the morality. i think veronica has _ to veronica on the morality. i think veronica has raised _ to veronica on the morality. i think veronica has raised a _ to veronica on the morality. i think veronica has raised a couple - to veronica on the morality. i think veronica has raised a couple of- to veronica on the morality. i think| veronica has raised a couple of very good _ veronica has raised a couple of very good points— veronica has raised a couple of very good points there. first of all, she talked _ good points there. first of all, she talked about the eu. now, i'm sure that we _ talked about the eu. now, i'm sure that we will— talked about the eu. now, i'm sure that we will all remember, before gaddafi _ that we will all remember, before gaddafi got thrown out of libya, the eu were _ gaddafi got thrown out of libya, the eu were actually paying him to stop migrants _ eu were actually paying him to stop migrants coming across the mediterranean. now the eu is in negotiation with tunisia to do a row and a _ negotiation with tunisia to do a row and a deal. — negotiation with tunisia to do a row and a deal, and this is being led by denmark, — and a deal, and this is being led by denmark, greece and austria, who are

leading _ denmark, greece and austria, who are leading this, _ denmark, greece and austria, who are leading this, to get the eu to a great _ leading this, to get the eu to a great answer but it is not an eu policy? — great answer but it is not an eu oli ? ., . ., great answer but it is not an eu oli ? ., , ., , , ,., policy? you seem to suggest it is a eu oli . policy? you seem to suggest it is a eu policy- there — policy? you seem to suggest it is a eu policy. there were _ policy? you seem to suggest it is a eu policy. there were certain - eu policy. there were certain countries who were pressing for this. this group is demanding, let me see now, that the eu develops relationships along external borders and beyond, but yeah, there will be and beyond, but yeah, there will be a row within. do you want to come in on that, harjap? a row within. do you want to come in on that. harjap?— on that, harjap? yeah, i mean, immigration — on that, harjap? yeah, i mean, immigration is _ on that, harjap? yeah, i mean, immigration is a _ on that, harjap? yeah, i mean, immigration is a concern - on that, harjap? yeah, i mean, immigration is a concern to - on that, harjap? yeah, i mean, i immigration is a concern to many on that, harjap? yeah, i mean, - immigration is a concern to many eu countries, germany, we have seen other countries, italy, spain, and there are high levels of migration there are high levels of migration there and people crossing the borders, much higher in relation to what we get. so it is a concern. 0nce what we get. so it is a concern. once again, it comes down to the gangs. you've got to stop the gangs. so what is happening here? i don't understand, and kevin will agree with me on this, because kevin has

seen it first—hand, and so have i, that the roots are the same, they are coming from the same french coast, and they end up on the same coast, and they end up on the same coast of kent, for the past 20 years. the methods used to be lorries, and now it is a small boats. now, the gangs are the same, it is almost like someone driving the same bus with the same passengers for 20 years, from the same spot, from a to b, and then we say to the government, do you know the bus driver? sorry, mate, they are 20 steps ahead of me. how can we not catch these gangs who are using the same routes? how are they so confident? by saying we cannot get the gangs, we will get the people who use the gangs, isn't that an admission that we have failed at that we cannot catch the gangs. it is once again, i equate it to drug dealing. if we lock up the drug dealers, drug dealing might stop. if

you look up drug users, it will not stop the dealing. if you look up drug users, it will not stop the dealing.— stop the dealing. if you look up dru: stop the dealing. if you look up drug dealers. _ stop the dealing. if you look up drug dealers, you _ stop the dealing. if you look up drug dealers, you get - stop the dealing. if you look up drug dealers, you get other- stop the dealing. if you look up. drug dealers, you get other drug dealers coming along. if drug dealers, you get other drug dealers coming along.— dealers coming along. if you sentence — dealers coming along. if you sentence them _ dealers coming along. if you sentence them to _ dealers coming along. if you sentence them to 30 - dealers coming along. if you sentence them to 30 years i dealers coming along. if you | sentence them to 30 years in dealers coming along. if you - sentence them to 30 years in jail, thatis sentence them to 30 years in jail, that is a bigger deterrent to the next drug dealer that pops up. really? $5 next drug dealer that pops up. reall ? a .,, really? as opposed to putting the dru: user really? as opposed to putting the drug user in _ really? as opposed to putting the drug user injail, _ really? as opposed to putting the drug user injail, yes. _ really? as opposed to putting the drug user injail, yes. just - really? as opposed to putting the drug user in jail, yes. just to - drug user in “ail, yes. just to clari , drug user in “ail, yes. just to clarify. you _ drug user injail, yes. just to clarify. you are _ drug user injail, yes. just to clarify, you are right, - drug user injail, yes. just to clarify, you are right, kevin, j drug user in jail, yes. just to i clarify, you are right, kevin, eu countries do fund a scheme that recycles asylum seekers that have beenin recycles asylum seekers that have been in libya to rwanda for their own safety, when it is deemed to be safe, they return or go elsewhere, which is slightly different. you are right in saying that there are various eu countries who want to press hard on third country resettlement schemes, that is not wrong. bunmi in lewisham, where are you from? i wrong. bunmi in lewisham, where are ou from? ., ., ., , ., you from? i am originally from niceria. you from? i am originally from nigeria- you — you from? i am originally from nigeria. you are _ you from? i am originally from nigeria. you are very - you from? i am originally from | nigeria. you are very welcome, you from? i am originally from - nigeria. you are very welcome, what do ou nigeria. you are very welcome, what do you want — nigeria. you are very welcome, what do you want to _ nigeria. you are very welcome, what do you want to say — nigeria. you are very welcome, what do you want to say about _ nigeria. you are very welcome, what do you want to say about this? - nigeria. you are very welcome, what do you want to say about this? we i do you want to say about this? we need to clarify that catherine had

to go, but she said we are sending criminal gangs to africa, that is not the case. what would you like to say? not the case. what would you like to sa ? , ., ., ., ., 4' not the case. what would you like to sa ? ,., ., ., ., 4' ., say? good morning. i would like to make a comment _ say? good morning. i would like to make a comment regarding - say? good morning. i would like to make a comment regarding what i make a comment regarding what catherine — make a comment regarding what catherine said. i am from nigeria. they— catherine said. i am from nigeria. they do— catherine said. i am from nigeria. they do not— catherine said. i am from nigeria. they do not stone people in nigeria. we have _ they do not stone people in nigeria. we have a _ they do not stone people in nigeria. we have a justice system, the same as it is _ we have a justice system, the same as it is here — we have a justice system, the same as it is here. and i don't want people — as it is here. and i don't want people thinking africa is as bad as that _ people thinking africa is as bad as that but — people thinking africa is as bad as that. but when it comes to this issue. — that. but when it comes to this issue. the _ that. but when it comes to this issue, the government should be speeding — issue, the government should be speeding up the asylum claims so that as _ speeding up the asylum claims so that as they are coming in, within two days— that as they are coming in, within two days the claim would be made, and they— two days the claim would be made, and they can know whether they should _ and they can know whether they should stay or not, because not a lot of— should stay or not, because not a lot of them — should stay or not, because not a lot of them are criminals, some of them _ lot of them are criminals, some of them are — lot of them are criminals, some of them are fleeing situations that they cannot survive with. we are talking _ they cannot survive with. we are talking about the human rights, human— talking about the human rights, human rights. so what we need to do, what the _ human rights. so what we need to do, what the government should do, is to

speed _ what the government should do, is to speed up— what the government should do, is to speed up their asylum claim, and when_ speed up their asylum claim, and when they— speed up their asylum claim, and when they need to be sent back to their country, they should be sent back _ their country, they should be sent back and — their country, they should be sent back. and they should be, that is my opinion— back. and they should be, that is my opinion about it. but africa is not the way— opinion about it. but africa is not the way that people are pointing it. interestingly, it was painted that way by catherine in ealing, who is originally from africa, and as somebody who has never been to africa, to come on and say should things, all hell would break loose! people would describe it as racist. no, it is not like that. i people would describe it as racist. no, it is not like that.— no, it is not like that. i had to sa to no, it is not like that. i had to say to her. — no, it is not like that. i had to say to her, and _ no, it is not like that. i had to say to her, and i— no, it is not like that. i had to say to her, and i found - no, it is not like that. i had to say to her, and i found myself no, it is not like that. i had to i say to her, and i found myself a no, it is not like that. i had to - say to her, and i found myself a bit say to her, and ifound myself a bit patronising, there are lots of different countries in africa with different countries in africa with different systems, i kind of heard myself saying it, thinking, i cannot believe i am saying this to someone from africa, but she feels strongly about it, obviously, and bunmi, you have made a fantastic contribution, thank you. justine in woolwich, ian bankier, adam ed lister, good

morning, all. bankier, adam ed lister, good morning. all-— bankier, adam ed lister, good - morning, all._justin, morning, all. good morning! justin, what do you — morning, all. good morning! justin, what do you think _ morning, all. good morning! justin, what do you think of _ morning, all. good morning! justin, what do you think of this? _ morning, all. good morning! justin, what do you think of this? should i what do you think of this? should they press on? ida. what do you think of this? should they press on?— what do you think of this? should they press on? no, they shouldn't, what they have _ they press on? no, they shouldn't, what they have to _ they press on? no, they shouldn't, what they have to do _ they press on? no, they shouldn't, what they have to do is _ they press on? no, they shouldn't, what they have to do is what - they press on? no, they shouldn't, what they have to do is what the i what they have to do is what the last caller — what they have to do is what the last caller said, investigate where people _ last caller said, investigate where people are coming from, the criminal gangs _ people are coming from, the criminal gangs which — people are coming from, the criminal gangs which are exploiting them. sending — gangs which are exploiting them. sending them to rwanda, i come from a neighbouring country, like bunmi said, _ a neighbouring country, like bunmi said. not— a neighbouring country, like bunmi said, not every country in africa is bad, _ said, not every country in africa is bad, but _ said, not every country in africa is bad, but we — said, not every country in africa is bad, but we have leaders who are so brutat _ bad, but we have leaders who are so brutat if _ bad, but we have leaders who are so brutat if we — bad, but we have leaders who are so brutal. if we are going to send those — brutal. if we are going to send those people to rwanda, they will be exploited _ those people to rwanda, they will be exploited again, because people have decided _ exploited again, because people have decided to— exploited again, because people have decided to come to europe, use send me back— decided to come to europe, use send me back there, people are going to exploit _ me back there, people are going to exploit them, then someone will brainwash — exploit them, then someone will brainwash them, someone will say we do not _

brainwash them, someone will say we do not want... and rwanda cannot cope _ do not want... and rwanda cannot cope with — do not want... and rwanda cannot cope with all these asylum seekers, it is not— cope with all these asylum seekers, it is not feasible, it is not feasible _ it is not feasible, it is not feasible. we should find where the root cause — feasible. we should find where the root cause is and stop the boats from _ root cause is and stop the boats from coming in, you are passing on another— from coming in, you are passing on another problem to a region, which is africa, _ another problem to a region, which is africa, which is already full of refugees— is africa, which is already full of refugees from neighbouring countries, and apart from the government of rwanda, which is gaining — government of rwanda, which is gaining from this, they are not gaining — gaining from this, they are not gaining anything. adam, in leicester, you've heard justine in woolwich, what do you think? she knows her stuff? yes. think? she knows her stuff? yes, everybody — think? she knows her stuff? yes, everybody has — think? she knows her stuff? yes, everybody has their _ think? she knows her stuff? yes, everybody has their own - think? she knows her stuff? ye: everybody has their own opinions. mine is personally that everything

is overflowed, gp surgeries you can't book an dip —— appointment, if people come over they get put in a 5—star hotel, and we have a problem with housing. 5-star hotel, and we have a problem with housing-— with housing. they don't get put into a 5-star _ with housing. they don't get put into a 5-star hotel. _ with housing. they don't get put into a 5-star hotel. they - with housing. they don't get put into a 5-star hotel. they put - with housing. they don't get put i into a 5-star hotel. they put them into a 5-star hotel. they put them in a hotel, — into a 5-star hotel. they put them in a hotel, once _ into a 5-star hotel. they put them in a hotel, once they _ into a 5-star hotel. they put them in a hotel, once they come. - into a 5-star hotel. they put them in a hotel, once they come. not i into a 5-star hotel. they put them i in a hotel, once they come. not into claridres. in a hotel, once they come. not into claridges. something _ in a hotel, once they come. not into claridges. something needs - in a hotel, once they come. not into claridges. something needs to - in a hotel, once they come. not into i claridges. something needs to happen with border control. _ claridges. something needs to happen with border control. the _ claridges. something needs to happen with border control. the problem - claridges. something needs to happen with border control. the problem is . with border control. the problem is coming from the french crossing system, something has to be done there to stop this, instead of passing them on somewhere else. i agree with that, i work in the nhs. we have _ agree with that, i work in the nhs. we have people wanting to exploit the benefits system. but they must want to _ the benefits system. but they must want to come in and work. you say they— want to come in and work. you say they will— want to come in and work. you say they will be — want to come in and work. you say they will be put in 5—star hotels, that's— they will be put in 5—star hotels, that's not— they will be put in 5—star hotels, that's not right. if they are

processed, within time, people work. i'm processed, within time, people work. i'm a _ processed, within time, people work. i'm a refugee, came as a refugee, i worked, _ i'm a refugee, came as a refugee, i worked, i_ i'm a refugee, came as a refugee, i worked, i went to university and i studied — worked, i went to university and i studied. now i am contributing back to the _ studied. now i am contributing back to the economy because i am working in the _ to the economy because i am working in the nhs _ to the economy because i am working in the nhs. . . ., to the economy because i am working in the nhs. . , ., ., ., .,, in the nhs. yes, but a lot of it has not been thought _ in the nhs. yes, but a lot of it has not been thought about. _ in the nhs. yes, but a lot of it has not been thought about. i've - in the nhs. yes, but a lot of it has not been thought about. i've been | not been thought about. i've been here 12 years- _ not been thought about. i've been here 12 years. 12 _ not been thought about. i've been here 12 years. 12 yes, _ not been thought about. i've been here 12 years. 12 yes, yes. - not been thought about. i've been here 12 years. 12 yes, yes. claims| here 12 years. 12 yes, yes. claims need to be _ here 12 years. 12 yes, yes. claims need to be speeded _ here 12 years. 12 yes, yes. claims need to be speeded up _ here 12 years. 12 yes, yes. claims need to be speeded up in - here 12 years. 12 yes, yes. claims need to be speeded up in the - here 12 years. 12 yes, yes. claims - need to be speeded up in the manner in they should be. my wife is from morocco, i had to wait five years before her visa was approved. 12 yes, justine? what was that like? 12 years, what was that like? yes, justine? what was that like? 12 years, what was that like?— years, what was that like? how, livin: years, what was that like? how, living hell- _ years, what was that like? how, living hell- i— years, what was that like? how, living hell. i couldn't— years, what was that like? how, living hell. i couldn't do - years, what was that like? how, | living hell. i couldn't do anything. i living hell. i couldn't do anything. i could _

living hell. icouldn't do anything. i could not— living hell. i couldn't do anything. i could not study. you don't know where _ i could not study. you don't know where you — i could not study. you don't know where you stand. i couldn't do a lot, but— where you stand. i couldn't do a lot, but i— where you stand. i couldn't do a lot, but i managed to get it. it has a lot to do — lot, but i managed to get it. it has a lot to do with _ lot, but i managed to get it. it has a lot to do with the _ lot, but i managed to get it. it has a lot to do with the home - lot, but i managed to get it. it has a lot to do with the home office. i a lot to do with the home office. the home office needs to sort it out, really. the home office needs to sort it out. really-— the home office needs to sort it out, really. well, i've got to say, i have out, really. well, i've got to say, i have to — out, really. well, i've got to say, i have to call _ out, really. well, i've got to say, i have to call a _ out, really. well, i've got to say, i have to call a halt, _ out, really. well, i've got to say, i have to call a halt, not - out, really. well, i've got to say, i have to call a halt, not out - out, really. well, i've got to say, i have to call a halt, not out of. i have to call a halt, not out of rudeness, it has been great hearing from you all, we need to go to the news. you mentioned the home office. i think the first time i heard the phrase, or is aware of the phrase not fit for purpose, it was many years ago, and i think it could have been the labour minister, john reid, who described it. a voice came to me from kevin, saying it wasjohn reid. not fit for purpose. should the government stick with its rwanda plan? i look forward to hearing from you.

and here is the news. the foreign 0ffice minister zac goldsmith has announced his resignation, accusing the government of "apathy" over environmental issues. lord goldsmith was accused yesterday of undermining a commons investigation into borisjohnson. the government's15—year plan for tackling staff shortages in the health service has been called "historic" by the chief executive of nhs england. measures being announced today include more university medical places and a new focus on apprenticeships — labour says the plans are 10 years too late. president macron is holding a second crisis meeting today over continuing unrest across france. 250 police officers have been injured in a third night of violent protests — it's after a teenager was shot by a police officer in a suburb of paris. and temperatures on the bbc weather app and website are starting to be corrected after users complained it was showing highs normally

expected in february. bbc weather apologised for the glitch this morning. england's cricketers will resume their first innings on 278 for four on day three of the second ashes test at lord's — still 138 runs behind australia. the australia spinner nathan lyon is unlikely to play for the rest of the test match after suffering a calf injury. the celtic manager brendan rodgers will begin his second spell in charge with a home game against ross county on the 8th of august. meanwhile, rangers will start their scottish premiership season with a trip to kilmarnock. the first meeting of the old firm will be on the 3rd of september. a culture, media and sport select committee report says unless the premier league and efl "urgently" agree on sharing more revenue with clubs down the football pyramid, they should have a settlement forced on them. the mps say a quicker introduction of an independent football regulator may be needed. rugby union's leaders are hoping to have worked out how to reshape the game's global

calendar by october. they're trying to find space for a two—tier men's international tournament injuly and november in alternate years. it could mean the six nations loses one of its two rest weekends.england it could mean the six nations loses one of its two rest weekends. coming up at ten o'clock on a big announcement from rishi sunak, some people in the nhs say it may have

been somewhat scuppered by the news that a government minister and a man close to borisjohnson, zac goldsmith, environmentalist and animal rights campaigner, not pleased with the government's and environmental and animal rights position has resigned. is that a spokein position has resigned. is that a spoke in rishi sunak's wheel? we will see. a huge announcement today. with what's being described as a historic plan to fill nhs shortages. at the moment one out of every ten posts remains unfilled — more than 110,000 vacancies. to try and sort this the government has promised £2.4 billion in funding per the next five years. speaking we just had a caller saying that she had 12 years to have her claim process, now she is working in the nhs. by 2031 it aims to double medical school places for student doctors, to 15,000 a year, a 50% increase

in gp trainee places forjunior doctors, 24,000 more nurse and midwife student places a year — close to double the number now. so what does this mean to you? do you have an ambition to work in the nhs? are you currently in medical training? what's it like? lets open that up at ten o'clock. 0ur guest is from freedom from torture. welcome to the nation's phone in. torture. welcome to the nation's hone in. . ~' ,, torture. welcome to the nation's hone in. ., ,, ., ., phone in. thank you for having me. we have then _ phone in. thank you for having me. we have ben in _ phone in. thank you for having me. we have ben in notting _ phone in. thank you for having me. we have ben in notting hill- phone in. thank you for having me. we have ben in notting hill comingj we have ben in notting hill coming up, and ian in sheffield. i'll be right with you, gentlemen. freedom

from torture, you submitted evidence to the inquiry, and you were smuggled here on a boat from chad in 2005. what was a journey like? tell us about that perilous trip. the “ourne us about that perilous trip. the journey is _ us about that perilous trip. tis: journey is horrendous. it is traumatic. there is a lot of risk. you see so much death as well on the way. but the journey needs to be taken because of the risk that you are fleeing. the fear that you leave behind. the option for you here is only to go forward, finding a place where you can be protected and you

can feel safe. iloath? where you can be protected and you can feel safe-— can feel safe. why did you need to leave child? _ can feel safe. why did you need to leave child? it _ can feel safe. why did you need to leave child? it is _ can feel safe. why did you need to leave child? it is an _ can feel safe. why did you need to leave child? it is an extremely - can feel safe. why did you need to | leave child? it is an extremely poor country. i leave child? it is an extremely poor count . . ., ., , ., country. i am a torture survivor, and i experienced _ country. i am a torture survivor, and i experienced persecution i country. i am a torture survivor, i and i experienced persecution and experienced war, and also time in a refugee camp during the war in chad. it was not possible for me to continue living there. because of the torture, and also because of the risk of my life. so i had to flee, and i had the opportunity to flee, and i had the opportunity to flee, and i had the opportunity to flee, and i took that opportunity. i made the treacherous journey, and and i took that opportunity. i made the treacherousjourney, and i managed to get myself into the uk, and seek asylum. that was a

traumatic experience, navigating the asylum system in the uk. that traumatic experience, navigating the asylum system in the uk.— asylum system in the uk. that was traumatic as _ asylum system in the uk. that was traumatic as well? _ asylum system in the uk. that was traumatic as well? it _ asylum system in the uk. that was traumatic as well? it is _ asylum system in the uk. that was traumatic as well? it is good - asylum system in the uk. that was traumatic as well? it is good to - traumatic as well? it is good to have your contributions this morning. i would love you to listen to ian in sheffield, darren in blackpool and ben in notting hill. ian, what is the way ahead? morning. there is never— ian, what is the way ahead? morning. there is never going _ ian, what is the way ahead? morning. there is never going to _ ian, what is the way ahead? morning. there is never going to be _ ian, what is the way ahead? morning. there is never going to be an - ian, what is the way ahead? morning. there is never going to be an easy - there is never going to be an easy answer— there is never going to be an easy answer to— there is never going to be an easy answer to this problem. what i do think— answer to this problem. what i do think is— answer to this problem. what i do think is that itjust suits answer to this problem. what i do think is that it just suits the government's agenda to push this unworkable, inhumane policy all the way through the courts, all the way up way through the courts, all the way up to— way through the courts, all the way up to the _ way through the courts, all the way up to the supreme court, at huge public— up to the supreme court, at huge public expense, because what it does as it shifts— public expense, because what it does as it shifts the narrative away from the cost _ as it shifts the narrative away from the cost of — as it shifts the narrative away from the cost of living crisis, away from the cost of living crisis, away from the mortgage crisis, away from inflation, — the mortgage crisis, away from inflation, the nhs, all of these things— inflation, the nhs, all of these things happened on the government's watch _ things happened on the government's watch it— things happened on the government's watch. it suits their agenda to move the conversation, to have us talking

about _ the conversation, to have us talking about 45,000 people coming on boats. because _ about 45,000 people coming on boats. because then they can demonise the people _ because then they can demonise the people who are coming. then they can demonise _ people who are coming. then they can demonise the left—wing lawyers who are clogging up the process. and it changes— are clogging up the process. and it changes the conversation. it's an absolute — changes the conversation. it's an absolute myth that the housing crisis _ absolute myth that the housing crisis and — absolute myth that the housing crisis and nhs crisis is caused by 45.000 — crisis and nhs crisis is caused by 45,000 people who are fleeing persecution, even if people are coming — persecution, even if people are coming here to make a better life for themselves, there are plenty of people _ for themselves, there are plenty of people in_ for themselves, there are plenty of people in this government, boris johnson, — people in this government, boris johnson, rishi sunak, suella braverman, priti patel, the list goes _ braverman, priti patel, the list goes on — braverman, priti patel, the list goes on and on, who at some point in time their— goes on and on, who at some point in time their families came to this country— time their families came to this country for a reason. we time their families came to this country for a reason.— time their families came to this country for a reason. we can't have an 0 en country for a reason. we can't have an open door _ country for a reason. we can't have an open door policy, _ country for a reason. we can't have an open door policy, can _ country for a reason. we can't have an open door policy, can we? - country for a reason. we can't have an open door policy, can we? have| country for a reason. we can't have i an open door policy, can we? have we not an an open door policy, can we? have we got an open — an open door policy, can we? have we got an open door _ an open door policy, can we? have we got an open door policy? _ an open door policy, can we? have we got an open door policy? we - an open door policy, can we? have we got an open door policy? we haven't i got an open door policy? we haven't -ot got an open door policy? we haven't got an— got an open door policy? we haven't got an open— got an open door policy? we haven't got an open door policy? we haven't got an open door policy. we left the eu because — got an open door policy. we left the eu because we didn't want an open

door policy, — eu because we didn't want an open door policy, this government can't control— door policy, this government can't control legal migration, they can't control— control legal migration, they can't control so—called illegal migration, and i_ control so—called illegal migration, and i take — control so—called illegal migration, and i take issue with that, because no person— and i take issue with that, because no person is— and i take issue with that, because no person is illegal. they can't control— no person is illegal. they can't control any— no person is illegal. they can't control any of it.— no person is illegal. they can't control any of it. there is no such thin as control any of it. there is no such thing as an _ control any of it. there is no such thing as an illegal— control any of it. there is no such thing as an illegal migrant, - thing as an illegal migrant, absolutely right. but i think illegal migration, per se, some people would argue is what it says on the tin. you are right to draw that distinction. ian, that is interesting. darren, do you hear that? , interesting. darren, do you hear that? . ., interesting. darren, do you hear that? . . ~y that? yes, thanks, nicky. my pempective — that? yes, thanks, nicky. my pempective is _ that? yes, thanks, nicky. my perspective is this _ that? yes, thanks, nicky. my perspective is this illegal - perspective is this illegal immigration _ perspective is this illegal immigration is _ perspective is this illegal immigration is a - perspective is this illegal immigration is a drain. perspective is this illegal immigration is a drain on perspective is this illegal— immigration is a drain on resources. we just— immigration is a drain on resources. we just can't — immigration is a drain on resources. we just can't expect _ immigration is a drain on resources. we just can't expect to _ immigration is a drain on resources. we just can't expect to throw - we just can't expect to throw resources _ we just can't expect to throw resources at _ we just can't expect to throw resources at this, _ we just can't expect to throw resources at this, and - we just can't expect to throw resources at this, and at - we just can't expect to throw resources at this, and at thei we just can't expect to throw - resources at this, and at the same time _ resources at this, and at the same time expect— resources at this, and at the same time expect more _ resources at this, and at the same time expect more doctors, - resources at this, and at the same time expect more doctors, more i time expect more doctors, more nurses, — time expect more doctors, more nurses, more— time expect more doctors, more nurses, more police, _ time expect more doctors, more nurses, more police, more- nurses, more police, more firefighters, _ nurses, more police, more firefighters, more - nurses, more police, more. firefighters, more firefighters, more — firefighters, more firefighters, more money— firefighters, more firefighters, more money for— firefighters, more firefighters, more money for benefit - firefighters, more firefighters, - more money for benefit claimants. these _ more money for benefit claimants. these goody— more money for benefit claimants. these goody two _ more money for benefit claimants. these goody two shoes _ more money for benefit claimants. these goody two shoes pupils, - more money for benefit claimants. | these goody two shoes pupils, they want all— these goody two shoes pupils, they want all of— these goody two shoes pupils, they want all of these _ these goody two shoes pupils, they want all of these immigrants - these goody two shoes pupils, they want all of these immigrants in, - these goody two shoes pupils, they| want all of these immigrants in, and we don't _ want all of these immigrants in, and we don't want — want all of these immigrants in, and we don't want to— want all of these immigrants in, and we don't want to stop _ want all of these immigrants in, and

we don't want to stop the _ want all of these immigrants in, and we don't want to stop the boats, - want all of these immigrants in, andi we don't want to stop the boats, why don't _ we don't want to stop the boats, why don't they— we don't want to stop the boats, why don't they write — we don't want to stop the boats, why don't they write to _ we don't want to stop the boats, why don't they write to rishi _ we don't want to stop the boats, why don't they write to rishi, _ we don't want to stop the boats, why don't they write to rishi, tell- we don't want to stop the boats, why don't they write to rishi, tell them i don't they write to rishi, tell them we will— don't they write to rishi, tell them we will put — don't they write to rishi, tell them we will put them _ don't they write to rishi, tell them we will put them up _ don't they write to rishi, tell them we will put them up in _ don't they write to rishi, tell them we will put them up in our- don't they write to rishi, tell them we will put them up in our house i don't they write to rishi, tell them i we will put them up in our house and see how— we will put them up in our house and see how popular— we will put them up in our house and see how popular that _ we will put them up in our house and see how popular that is? _ we will put them up in our house and see how popular that is? iillho - we will put them up in our house and see how popular that is?— we will put them up in our house and see how popular that is? who are the aood two see how popular that is? who are the goody two shoes? — see how popular that is? who are the goody two shoes? liberal _ see how popular that is? who are the goody two shoes? liberal s? - see how popular that is? who are the goody two shoes? liberal s? lets - goody two shoes? liberal s? lets 'ust that goody two shoes? liberal s? lets just that in _ goody two shoes? liberal s? lets just that in these _ goody two shoes? liberal s? lets just that in these illegal immigrants, _ just that in these illegal immigrants, let- just that in these illegal immigrants, let them i just that in these illegall immigrants, let them all just that in these illegal- immigrants, let them all in, find places— immigrants, let them all in, find places to — immigrants, let them all in, find places to stay, _ immigrants, let them all in, find places to stay, let's _ immigrants, let them all in, find places to stay, let's not - immigrants, let them all in, find places to stay, let's not send - immigrants, let them all in, find i places to stay, let's not send them anywhere — places to stay, let's not send them anywhere it's_ places to stay, let's not send them anywhere. it's ridiculous. - places to stay, let's not send them anywhere. it's ridiculous. iillho - places to stay, let's not send them anywhere. it's ridiculous.— anywhere. it's ridiculous. who is sa in: anywhere. it's ridiculous. who is saying that? _ anywhere. it's ridiculous. who is saying that? well, _ anywhere. it's ridiculous. who is saying that? well, that - anywhere. it's ridiculous. who is saying that? well, that is - anywhere. it's ridiculous. who is saying that? well, that is my - saying that? well, that is my perception- _ saying that? well, that is my perception- my _ saying that? well, that is my perception. my evaluation i saying that? well, that is my perception. my evaluation of| saying that? well, that is my - perception. my evaluation of what i hear~ _ perception. my evaluation of what i hear~ we _ perception. my evaluation of what i hear~ we just — perception. my evaluation of what i hear. we just can't _ perception. my evaluation of what i hear. we just can't accept - perception. my evaluation of what i hear. we just can't accept it. - perception. my evaluation of what i hear. we just can't accept it. iirlt�*haftl hear. we 'ust can't accept it. what would hear. we just can't accept it. what would ou hear. we just can't accept it. what would you say... _ hear. we just can't accept it. what would you say... yes, _ hear. we just can't accept it. what would you say... yes, your- hear. we just can't accept it. what would you say... yes, your view. hear. we just can't accept it.- would you say... yes, your view is out there, and lots of people think that, am looking at the texts. what would you say to the caller from

lewisham, very worried about this plan, had to wait for 12 years to be fully here legitimately. now she is paying taxes and she is working in the nhs, one of the wonderful people working in the national health service, which we are going to discuss at ten o'clock. does she have the right to be here? well, i don't know _ have the right to be here? well, i don't know the _ have the right to be here? well, i don't know the exact _ have the right to be here? well, i i don't know the exact circumstances. but i don't know the exact circumstances. but i would — don't know the exact circumstances. but i would say _ don't know the exact circumstances. but i would say the _ don't know the exact circumstances. but i would say the point _ don't know the exact circumstances. but i would say the point that - don't know the exact circumstances. but i would say the point that she i but i would say the point that she followed — but i would say the point that she followed the _ but i would say the point that she followed the process _ but i would say the point that she followed the process and - but i would say the point that she followed the process and is - but i would say the point that she followed the process and is here i followed the process and is here legally, — followed the process and is here legally, the _ followed the process and is here legally, the point— followed the process and is here legally, the point that _ followed the process and is here legally, the point that makes i followed the process and is here i legally, the point that makes that difficult _ legally, the point that makes that difficult and — legally, the point that makes that difficult and challenging _ legally, the point that makes that difficult and challenging is - legally, the point that makes that difficult and challenging is this i difficult and challenging is this amount— difficult and challenging is this amount of— difficult and challenging is this amount of illegal— difficult and challenging is thisj amount of illegal immigration. difficult and challenging is this i amount of illegal immigration. it takes _ amount of illegal immigration. it takes resources _ amount of illegal immigration. it takes resources away _ amount of illegal immigration. it takes resources away from i takes resources away from administering _ takes resources away from administering the - takes resources away from administering the processl takes resources away from i administering the process to takes resources away from - administering the process to allow people _ administering the process to allow people to — administering the process to allow people to come _ administering the process to allow people to come here _ administering the process to allow people to come here legally, i administering the process to allow. people to come here legally, quickly and efficiently, — people to come here legally, quickly and efficiently, settle _ people to come here legally, quickly and efficiently, settle down- people to come here legally, quickly and efficiently, settle down and i and efficiently, settle down and make _ and efficiently, settle down and make a — and efficiently, settle down and make a valid _ and efficiently, settle down and make a valid contribution i and efficiently, settle down and make a valid contribution to i and efficiently, settle down andj make a valid contribution to the economy — make a valid contribution to the economy it's_ make a valid contribution to the economy. it's precisely- make a valid contribution to the economy. it's precisely because make a valid contribution to the i economy. it's precisely because of this problem — economy. it's precisely because of this problem that _ economy. it's precisely because of this problem that people - economy. it's precisely because of this problem that people are i economy. it's precisely because of. this problem that people are finding it difficult _ this problem that people are finding it difficult on — this problem that people are finding it difficult on having _ this problem that people are finding it difficult on having to _ this problem that people are finding it difficult on having to wait - this problem that people are finding it difficult on having to wait years i it difficult on having to wait years and years. — it difficult on having to wait years and years. as— it difficult on having to wait years and years. as i _ it difficult on having to wait years and years, as i said, _ it difficult on having to wait years and years, as i said, there - it difficult on having to wait years and years, as i said, there is i it difficult on having to wait years and years, as i said, there is a i and years, as i said, there is a finite— and years, as i said, there is a finite amount _

and years, as i said, there is a finite amount of— and years, as i said, there is a finite amount of resources. ifi and years, as i said, there is a i finite amount of resources. if you pull on _ finite amount of resources. if you pull on one — finite amount of resources. if you pull on one corner, _ finite amount of resources. if you pull on one corner, there - finite amount of resources. if you pull on one corner, there is- finite amount of resources. if you pull on one corner, there is a i finite amount of resources. if youj pull on one corner, there is a pull on another~ — pull on one corner, there is a pull on another~ we _ pull on one corner, there is a pull on another. we need _ pull on one corner, there is a pull on another. we need to - pull on one corner, there is a pull on another. we need to get i pull on one corner, there is a pull| on another. we need to get legal, effective — on another. we need to get legal, effective, legal— on another. we need to get legal, effective, legal migration, - on another. we need to get legal, effective, legal migration, and i on another. we need to get legal, effective, legal migration, and wej effective, legal migration, and we need _ effective, legal migration, and we need people — effective, legal migration, and we need people in— effective, legal migration, and we need people in this _ effective, legal migration, and we need people in this country - effective, legal migration, and we need people in this country to i effective, legal migration, and we need people in this country to dol need people in this country to do jobs. _ need people in this country to do jobs. and — need people in this country to do jobs, and employers _ need people in this country to do jobs, and employers are - need people in this country to do jobs, and employers are lookingl jobs, and employers are looking elsewhere — jobs, and employers are looking elsewhere for— jobs, and employers are looking elsewhere for people _ jobs, and employers are looking elsewhere for people when i jobs, and employers are looking elsewhere for people when they| jobs, and employers are looking - elsewhere for people when they can't resource _ elsewhere for people when they can't resource the — elsewhere for people when they can't resource the rolls. _ elsewhere for people when they can't resource the rolls. that _ elsewhere for people when they can't resource the rolls. that is— elsewhere for people when they can't resource the rolls. that is what - elsewhere for people when they can't resource the rolls. that is what i- resource the rolls. that is what i would _ resource the rolls. that is what i would saw — resource the rolls. that is what i would say-— resource the rolls. that is what i would sa . i, i, i, would say. ian, what would you say to that? i mean, _ would say. ian, what would you say to that? i mean, we _ would say. ian, what would you say to that? i mean, we have _ would say. ian, what would you say to that? i mean, we have shut - would say. ian, what would you say| to that? i mean, we have shut down all of the safe _ to that? i mean, we have shut down all of the safe and _ to that? i mean, we have shut down all of the safe and legal— to that? i mean, we have shut down all of the safe and legal roots. - all of the safe and legal roots. people — all of the safe and legal roots. people who want to come from african now, people who want to come from african now. if— people who want to come from african how. if they _ people who want to come from african now, if they are fleeing persecution and war. _ now, if they are fleeing persecution and war, there is no safe and legal route _ and war, there is no safe and legal route because the government shut them _ route because the government shut them down. so those people who... i 'ust them down. so those people who... i just canl— them down. so those people who... i just can't get — them down. so those people who... i just can't get my head around how we are sitting _ just can't get my head around how we are sitting here, on a phone in, on our smartphones and our nice houses, and we _ our smartphones and our nice houses, and we are _ our smartphones and our nice houses,

and we are saying, yeah, there was a legal— and we are saying, yeah, there was a legal people, we don't want them coming _ legal people, we don't want them coming because it won't be good for us. i coming because it won't be good for us i cenl— coming because it won't be good for us. i can't get my head around what those _ us. i can't get my head around what those people must be going through, to gel— those people must be going through, to get your— those people must be going through, to get your family onto an unsafe boat, _ to get your family onto an unsafe boat, paying a criminal gang to do that, _ boat, paying a criminal gang to do that, that — boat, paying a criminal gang to do that, that is — boat, paying a criminal gang to do that, that is a choice that nobody wants— that, that is a choice that nobody wants to — that, that is a choice that nobody wants to go through. we are other rin- wants to go through. we are other ring them, — wants to go through. we are other ring them, saying they are illegal, we don't _ ring them, saying they are illegal, we don't want them. we say we are a compassionate country, we are not. we have — compassionate country, we are not. we have shut down the safe routes. what _ we have shut down the safe routes. what is _ we have shut down the safe routes. what is unsafe about france? | we have shut down the safe routes. what is unsafe about france? i think france is mostly _ what is unsafe about france? i think france is mostly on _ what is unsafe about france? i think france is mostly on fire _ what is unsafe about france? i think france is mostly on fire at _ what is unsafe about france? i think france is mostly on fire at the - france is mostly on fire at the moment, _ france is mostly on fire at the moment, if you see the news. it is more difficult _ moment, if you see the news. it is more difficult for _ moment, if you see the news. it is more difficult for us _ moment, if you see the news. it 3 more difficult for us because we are not in the dublin agreement on we don't have access to data, for complex reasons, it is more

difficult for us to return those seeking asylum.— difficult for us to return those seeking asylum. difficult for us to return those seekin: as lum. ., , , . ,, ., seeking asylum. nobody is talking of the fact that we _ seeking asylum. nobody is talking of the fact that we came _ seeking asylum. nobody is talking of the fact that we came out _ seeking asylum. nobody is talking of the fact that we came out of- seeking asylum. nobody is talking of the fact that we came out of the - seeking asylum. nobody is talking of the fact that we came out of the eu | the fact that we came out of the eu and that— the fact that we came out of the eu and that has— the fact that we came out of the eu and that has made _ the fact that we came out of the eu and that has made this _ the fact that we came out of the eu and that has made this more - and that has made this more difficult _ a lot of people who voted for brexit voted _ a lot of people who voted for brexit voted to _ a lot of people who voted for brexit voted to take is out of the eu. frahce — voted to take is out of the eu. france are _ voted to take is out of the eu. france are not bothered about having agreements with us and returning people _ agreements with us and returning people to — agreements with us and returning people to us, and not letting people come _ people to us, and not letting people come over— people to us, and not letting people come over the channel to us. we are out of— come over the channel to us. we are out of those — come over the channel to us. we are out of those agreements now. that's an uncomfortable truth that all the people _ an uncomfortable truth that all the people who voted for that policy. darren, _ people who voted for that policy. darren, are we right to welcome people with open arms who are fleeing war? in people with open arms who are fleeing war?— people with open arms who are fleein: war? , . , , , . fleeing war? in principle, yes. but i would fleeing war? in principle, yes. but l would ask— fleeing war? in principle, yes. but i would ask the _ fleeing war? in principle, yes. but i would ask the question... - fleeing war? in principle, yes. but i would ask the question... what i fleeing war? in principle, yes. but| i would ask the question... what is the difference, _ i would ask the question... what is the difference, then? _ i would ask the question... what is the difference, then? what - i would ask the question... what is l the difference, then? what countries do they come — the difference, then? what countries do they come through _ the difference, then? what countries do they come through to _ the difference, then? what countries do they come through to travel- the difference, then? what countries| do they come through to travel from? what is _ do they come through to travel from? what is the _

do they come through to travel from? what is the difference _ do they come through to travel from? what is the difference between - what is the difference between people in ukraine, people who have travelled through germany, holland and france, what is the difference with people from ukraine, who we have properly, and we should be very proud about that, welcomed with open arms, what is the difference between them and those coming from a brutal and bloody civil war in eritrea? there is no difference in terms of the impacts— there is no difference in terms of the impacts to _ there is no difference in terms of the impacts to this _ there is no difference in terms of the impacts to this country, - there is no difference in terms of the impacts to this country, in i the impacts to this country, in terms — the impacts to this country, in terms of— the impacts to this country, in terms of resources. _ the impacts to this country, in terms of resources. in - the impacts to this country, in terms of resources. in fact, i the impacts to this country, in . terms of resources. in fact, many people _ terms of resources. in fact, many people did — terms of resources. in fact, many people did put _ terms of resources. in fact, many people did put up _ terms of resources. in fact, many people did put up ukrainians- terms of resources. in fact, many people did put up ukrainians in. people did put up ukrainians in their— people did put up ukrainians in their house _ people did put up ukrainians in their house. i— people did put up ukrainians in their house. i would _ people did put up ukrainians in their house. i would ask- people did put up ukrainians in their house. i would ask ian, . people did put up ukrainians in. their house. i would ask ian, why doesn't _ their house. i would ask ian, why doesn't he — their house. i would ask ian, why doesn't he write _ their house. i would ask ian, why doesn't he write to _ their house. i would ask ian, why doesn't he write to suella - their house. i would ask ian, why doesn't he write to suella and - their house. i would ask ian, why| doesn't he write to suella and put up doesn't he write to suella and put up illegal— doesn't he write to suella and put up illegal immigrants _ doesn't he write to suella and put up illegal immigrants in _ doesn't he write to suella and put up illegal immigrants in his- doesn't he write to suella and put i up illegal immigrants in his house? would _ up illegal immigrants in his house? would he _ up illegal immigrants in his house? would he do — up illegal immigrants in his house? would he do that? _ up illegal immigrants in his house? would he do that? what— up illegal immigrants in his house? would he do that?— would he do that? what i put up someone who — would he do that? what i put up someone who was _ would he do that? what i put up someone who was fleeing - would he do that? what i put up - someone who was fleeing persecution up someone who was fleeing persecution up in my— someone who was fleeing persecution up in my house? yeah, i would. gk, up in my house? yeah, i would. 0k, there ou up in my house? yeah, i would. 0k, there you go- _ up in my house? yeah, i would. 0k, there you go. that's _ up in my house? yeah, i would. 0k, there you go. that's fair enough. would _ there you go. that's fair enough. would you? _ there you go. that's fair enough. would you?— there you go. that's fair enough.

would you? no. no. _ there you go. that's fair enough. would you? no. no. why- there you go. that's fair enough. would you? no. no. why not? . there you go. that's fair enough. would you?- no. why not? would you? no. no. why not? they are illeual would you? no. no. why not? they are illegal immigrants, _ would you? no. no. why not? they are illegal immigrants, they _ would you? no. no. why not? they are illegal immigrants, they shouldn't - illegal immigrants, they shouldn't be here _ illegal immigrants, they shouldn't be here. ., , . illegal immigrants, they shouldn't behere. ., ., , . be here. no, they are only illegal because of— be here. no, they are only illegal because of the _ be here. no, they are only illegal because of the process _ be here. no, they are only illegal because of the process they - be here. no, they are only illegal because of the process they go i because of the process they go through— because of the process they go through to come across the border. but you've — through to come across the border. but you've just agreed that if someone is fleeing war, we should welcome _ someone is fleeing war, we should welcome them. if they are fleeing war, welcome them. if they are fleeing war. and — welcome them. if they are fleeing war, and you write to suella to say you will— war, and you write to suella to say you will put — war, and you write to suella to say you will put up some people who have fled the _ you will put up some people who have fled the war, they would not be illegal— fled the war, they would not be illegal any more, would they? they would _ illegal any more, would they? they would be _ illegal any more, would they? they would be perfectly legal because you've _ would be perfectly legal because you've written to suella and got them _ you've written to suella and got them to — you've written to suella and got them to come over, they are not illegal— them to come over, they are not illegal any— them to come over, they are not illegal any more. would you put someone — illegal any more. would you put someone up in your house who has fled war— someone up in your house who has fled war in — someone up in your house who has fled war in africa? just someone up in your house who has fled war in africa?— someone up in your house who has fled war in africa? just because you ut them fled war in africa? just because you put them in — fled war in africa? just because you put them in your— fled war in africa? just because you put them in your house, _ fled war in africa? just because you put them in your house, doesn't . fled war in africa? just because you i put them in your house, doesn't mean they are _ put them in your house, doesn't mean they are legal— put them in your house, doesn't mean they are legal immigrants. _ put them in your house, doesn't mean they are legal immigrants. i'm“- they are legal immigrants. i'm askin: they are legal immigrants. i'm asking you- — they are legal immigrants. i'm asking you- we _ they are legal immigrants. i'm asking you. we should - they are legal immigrants. i'm asking you. we should get - they are legal immigrants. i'm asking you. we should get all| they are legal immigrants. i'm i asking you. we should get all of they are legal immigrants. i'm - asking you. we should get all of the eo - le asking you. we should get all of the people down — asking you. we should get all of the people down to _ asking you. we should get all of the people down to canton _ asking you. we should get all of the people down to canton solve - asking you. we should get all of the people down to canton solve the - people down to canton solve the problem — people down to canton solve the roblem. �* . ., . , ., problem. alex in wolverhampton, it is treat to problem. alex in wolverhampton, it

is great to know _ problem. alex in wolverhampton, it is great to know that _ problem. alex in wolverhampton, it is great to know that you _ problem. alex in wolverhampton, it is great to know that you are - problem. alex in wolverhampton, it is great to know that you are there, | is great to know that you are there, i would like you to listen to alison wolverhampton, harjap, interesting conversation. alex, tell us your story. conversation. alex, tell us your sto . . . conversation. alex, tell us your sto . , . ., . ,, . story. yes, i wanted to talk about the rwanda _ story. yes, i wanted to talk about the rwanda plan. _ story. yes, i wanted to talk about the rwanda plan. can _ story. yes, i wanted to talk about the rwanda plan. can you - story. yes, i wanted to talk about the rwanda plan. can you hear. story. yes, i wanted to talk about i the rwanda plan. can you hear me? yes, loud and clear.— yes, loud and clear. every country has the right _ yes, loud and clear. every country has the right to _ yes, loud and clear. every country has the right to defend _ yes, loud and clear. every country has the right to defend their - has the right to defend their borders, and if we are bringing these people in who are... i am a mikrut myself, i came to this country in 2018. all of these people are coming from the safe country, france, to be precise. —— i am a migrant myself. and the treatment france is giving them is making them

flee france to the uk. i think if the uk government can send just a single flight to rwanda, it will be a deterrent to migrants, and the traffickers. it will send a signal to them that we are really on top of things. the plane never took off, they will keep going. we don't know who comes in. the issue is that people are coming and are not caught by the uk border force. at some come and we don't even see them. they

could be terrorists, they could be any other person. you could be terrorists, they could be any other person.— could be terrorists, they could be any other person. you came from ghana to the _ any other person. you came from ghana to the uk _ any other person. you came from ghana to the uk in _ any other person. you came from ghana to the uk in 2018, - any other person. you came from ghana to the uk in 2018, do - any other person. you came from ghana to the uk in 2018, do you | ghana to the uk in 2018, do you think there is too much immigration, that the figures are too high? yes, it is too high _ that the figures are too high? yes, it is too high and _ that the figures are too high? yes, it is too high and there _ that the figures are too high? is: it is too high and there should be that the figures are too high? isis it is too high and there should be a cap on it. you can'tjust open your borders for everybody to come in. we are also giving priorities to the migrants. there should be something to stop them, something to deter them. ~ them. will it deter them? definitely. _ them. will it deter them? definitely, because... - them. will it deter them? i definitely, because... would them. will it deter them? - definitely, because... would have deterred you? _ definitely, because... would have deterred you? you _ definitely, because... would have deterred you? you came - definitely, because... would have deterred you? you came from - definitely, because... would have -

deterred you? you came from ghana. i came from ghana, but not the same routes. i. , , i i. came from ghana, but not the same routes. . , , . . i, came from ghana, but not the same routes. . , , . . . i, came from ghana, but not the same routes. i, , , i i, i, i, routes. i appreciate that. you were deserate routes. i appreciate that. you were desperate to _ routes. i appreciate that. you were desperate to get — routes. i appreciate that. you were desperate to get here. _ routes. i appreciate that. you were desperate to get here. why - routes. i appreciate that. you were desperate to get here. why did - routes. i appreciate that. you were | desperate to get here. why did you want to come here?— want to come here? well, ifi am fleein: want to come here? well, ifi am fleeing from _ want to come here? well, ifi am fleeing from persecution, - want to come here? well, ifi am fleeing from persecution, and - want to come here? well, ifi am fleeing from persecution, and i i want to come here? well, ifi am i fleeing from persecution, and i am in italy or france, i need to seek asylum in those countries. germany, poland, italy, france. there must be a reason why they want to come to the uk. , i i, a reason why they want to come to the uk. , ii, i i, the uk. they call it the cultural snowball effect. _ the uk. they call it the cultural snowball effect. they - the uk. they call it the cultural snowball effect. they are - the uk. they call it the cultural snowball effect. they are more likely to go somewhere where they have familiar cultural links. but likely to go somewhere where they have familiar cultural links.- have familiar cultural links. but we cannot protect _ have familiar cultural links. but we cannot protect the _

have familiar cultural links. but we cannot protect the borders, - have familiar cultural links. but we cannot protect the borders, we - cannot protect the borders, we should just open our borders for everybody that has a link or a tie to the uk to come in, that will not help. to the uk to come in, that will not hel. �* i. to the uk to come in, that will not hel. �* i, , i, r help. i'm hearing you, alex. let me come to some _ help. i'm hearing you, alex. let me come to some texts. _ help. i'm hearing you, alex. let me come to some texts. so _ help. i'm hearing you, alex. let me come to some texts. so sound - help. i'm hearing you, alex. let me come to some texts. so sound the i help. i'm hearing you, alex. let me i come to some texts. so sound the way the world is at the moment, we can't keep receiving these boats coming over, especially when they are travelling through safe countries. the countries are not able to take the strain. paul in somerset. another one, if these illegal immigrants, of course there is a strong argument that there is no such thing, if they can afford to pay a lot of people to money smugglers, why can't they pay it to come to the uk illegally? my wife did. it's scandalous. we had to go through legitimate legal routes, these people don't. these refugees make their way here because english, due to colonial history, is the international language. refugees have a chance of being able to communicate at such an insecure and

frightening time. i tell you what i will do at this point, i think i heard you try to come back in. kolbassia, some fascinating calls. what would you like to say? absolutely fascinating. and you know, hearing the different views, and also i think there is some degree of misinformation, people not understanding the reason, the drive that causes people to take those kinds of risks. people know they are crossing the channel, people see people dying. i saw my uncle die. but the fact that is the only option that you have in order to preserve the life that you have. there is nothing going to stop you. there is

nothing going to stop you. there is nothing out there that can deter people not to try to get to the point, but it's what i need to do to feel safe and start a new life and so on. when you are persecuted, when you are fleeing torture, it is like you are fleeing torture, it is like you are fleeing torture, it is like you are in a burning house, when you have the opportunity, you just run. nothing else matters. is have the opportunity, you 'ust run. nothing else matters._ nothing else matters. is that you comin: nothing else matters. is that you coming back. _ nothing else matters. is that you coming back, alex? _ nothing else matters. is that you coming back, alex? yes, - nothing else matters. is that you coming back, alex? yes, these l nothing else matters. is that you i coming back, alex? yes, these people are fleein: coming back, alex? yes, these people are fleeing from _ coming back, alex? yes, these people are fleeing from persecution, - coming back, alex? yes, these people are fleeing from persecution, but - are fleeing from persecution, but then they— are fleeing from persecution, but then they are not coming directly from _ then they are not coming directly from nigeria or rwanda or those places. — from nigeria or rwanda or those places, they are coming from a european — places, they are coming from a european country, a safe country. they— european country, a safe country. they don't _ european country, a safe country. they don't have no choice.- european country, a safe country. they don't have no choice. alex, let me ut they don't have no choice. alex, let me put that — they don't have no choice. alex, let me put that to _ they don't have no choice. alex, let me put that to you. _ they don't have no choice. alex, let me put that to you. you _ they don't have no choice. alex, let me put that to you. you said - they don't have no choice. alex, let me put that to you. you said you i me put that to you. you said you came from ghana, to the uk. why did you come to the uk? you come to the

uk because you speak english, you come to the uk because you have a relationship with the uk. all of those matters that you put in order to make your decision to select the uk as your destination, those are the decisions that people make. the condition that people are in, in order to take those risks and get into the uk, they are different compared to yours. there is no legal and safe route. let me finish this point. there is no point in going to a uk embassy to seek entry. truth? point. there is no point in going to a uk embassy to seek entry. why the uk in the first — a uk embassy to seek entry. why the uk in the first place, _ a uk embassy to seek entry. why the uk in the first place, not _ a uk embassy to seek entry. why the uk in the first place, not france. i uk in the first place, not france. lets— uk in the first place, not france. lets let — uk in the first place, not france. lets let alex come back, looking at the clock. ~ , i, i, the clock. why the uk, and not france or— the clock. why the uk, and not france or germany? _ the clock. why the uk, and not france or germany? because l the clock. why the uk, and not i france or germany? because there

the clock. why the uk, and not - france or germany? because there are ghanaians — france or germany? because there are ghanaians in — france or germany? because there are ghanaians in germany, there are nigerians— ghanaians in germany, there are nigerians in france. they are well settled. _ nigerians in france. they are well settled, they have the education, they've _ settled, they have the education, they've got everything, they've got their lives — they've got everything, they've got their lives and go to those countries. why the uk? if you have ties and _ countries. why the uk? if you have ties and money then come through the approved _ ties and money then come through the approved routes. if you have family here and _ approved routes. if you have family here and you are coming to the uk, they need _ here and you are coming to the uk, they need to — here and you are coming to the uk, they need to work, and most people are paying _ they need to work, and most people are paying close to this amount is 'ust are paying close to this amount is just to _ are paying close to this amount is just to flee, where do they get that money— just to flee, where do they get that money from?— just to flee, where do they get that mone from? i, ,, i, i, i, , money from? kolbassia, final words, i have to restrict _ money from? kolbassia, final words, i have to restrict you _ money from? kolbassia, final words, i have to restrict you to _ money from? kolbassia, final words, i have to restrict you to 30 _ money from? kolbassia, final words, i have to restrict you to 30 seconds l i have to restrict you to 30 seconds before i rudely interrupt you. there are no approved — before i rudely interrupt you. there are no approved routes. _ before i rudely interrupt you. there are no approved routes. the - before i rudely interrupt you. ii—ii” are no approved routes. the only one that we know now is for ukrainians, that we know now is for ukrainians, thatis that we know now is for ukrainians, that is the legal routes. we heard with afghan, what happened with that route, there is not an approved

route. that is something we need to be clear about. because there are not approved routes, people take the risks they need to take to get here. we can do nothing about deterring people from that.— we can do nothing about deterring people from that. thank you so much, eve bod . people from that. thank you so much, everybody- lt's — people from that. thank you so much, everybody- it's a _ people from that. thank you so much, everybody. it's a riveting _ people from that. thank you so much, everybody. it's a riveting and - everybody. it's a riveting and enlightening conversation there... thank you, thanks for your contributions. now the nhs. would you join the nhs? that is what we are discussing this morning. huge announcement for the nhs in england today, in what is being described as an historic plan to fill nhs shortages. rishi sunak is speaking on this later, when he has asked questions, he is going to be asked a good few one is not about the nhs,

given some political developments today with the resignation of his minister, zac goldsmith, and other stuff. but this is big — at the moment, one out of every ten posts is not filled, more than 110,000 vacancies, let's hearfrom you if you work in the nhs. and if you would like to try and sort this out, the government has promised to 4p in funding over the next five years, by 2031 it aims to double the medical school places for student doctors to 15,000 a year, 15% increase in gp training places forjunior doctors, training places for junior doctors, 24,000 training places forjunior doctors, 2a,000 more nursing and midwifery students places a year, close to doubling number now. what does it mean to you? do you have an ambition to work on the nhs? would you join the nhs? are you currently medical training? what is it like? do you welcome the expansion? and tell us about the ethos of it, it is always good to hear that emotional feeling that we have for the national health service. if i can learn to read out loud, it is going to be a good hour, it is one minute past ten.

and here is al tansley with the news. thanks, nicky. a 15 year plan for nhs training is being announced by the government today, aimed at fixing staff shortages, including doubling the number of medical school places, shortening degree courses and launching a new apprenticeship for doctors. lord goldsmith, the foreign office minister, says he is resigning. in a letter posted on twitter, attacked the government record on the environment. yesterday he was named on the privileges committee report on the privileges committee report on interference with its investigation into borisjohnson. nearly 700 people have been arrested after a third night of violent protest across france. the police officer who shot a 17—year—old in a paris suburb on tuesday has apologised to the boy's family had

been charged with voluntary homicide. and energy bills will stay high for the foreseeable future, thatis high for the foreseeable future, that is the warning from the boss of centrica, which owns british gas. the new lower price cap comes in this weekend, but the average household are still paying £800 more than two years ago. so the nhs — yes, as i say, it's a massive issue, we want to hear from you, 08085 909693. fascinating what they are trying to achieve here, and there are extraordinary ambitions, smitha mundasad is a bbc health reporter, good morning. it is big, this, significant, isn't it? it is reporter, good morning. it is big, this, significant, isn't it?- this, significant, isn't it? it is a big plan. _ this, significant, isn't it? it is a big plan. a _ this, significant, isn't it? it is a big plan. a 15 —

this, significant, isn't it? it is a big plan. a 15 year— this, significant, isn't it? it is a big plan, a 15 year plan. - this, significant, isn't it? it is a big plan, a 15 year plan. across vafious big plan, a 15 year plan. across various governments. - big plan, a 15 year plan. across various governments. that i big plan, a 15 year plan. across various governments. that is i big plan, a 15 year plan. across i various governments. that is the idea, it various governments. that is the idea. it is — various governments. that is the idea. it is an _ various governments. that is the idea, it is an ambitious _ various governments. that is the idea, it is an ambitious idea, i various governments. that is the j idea, it is an ambitious idea, and something that people have been saying for a very long time, that it takes years to train doctors and nurses, so you cannot plug shortages straightaway, so a long—term plan is needed, that is what critics have said, and that is apparently what has been delivered. we do not have the detail yet, the problem they are trying to address with this 15 year workforce plan is all about staff shortages. there are 100,000 or more shortages. there are 100,000 or more shortages now, and about 15% of doctors and nurses come from other countries to work here to boost the workforce, but even with that, there are so many vacancies. so they have got a plan, it is all about training more people, about retaining the people they have, and changing the way in which they are training people. way in which they are training --eole. i. . way in which they are training --eole. i, , i, people. that is quite an extraordinary _ people. that is quite an extraordinary figure, i people. that is quite an i extraordinary figure, given people. that is quite an - extraordinary figure, given our previous conversation, which was about the rwanda plan and the

various issues on migration and immigration 15% of doctors and nurses are from other parts of the world. i. i. . nurses are from other parts of the world. i, i, , i, , , i, nurses are from other parts of the world. i, i,, i, , , i, i, , world. that has happened for many ears world. that has happened for many years now. — world. that has happened for many years now. the _ world. that has happened for many years now, the nhs _ world. that has happened for many years now, the nhs has _ world. that has happened for many years now, the nhs has a - world. that has happened for many years now, the nhs has a huge i years now, the nhs has a huge reliance on staff from overseas, and it has never been easy to plan for the growing and ageing population, the growing and ageing population, the changing health needs and successive governments, because they are short—term in the most part, maybe have not put those plans in place, because it can take years to train doctors and nurses. so the idea here is that the government will put in £2.1t billion, that is what i have committed to over five years, and they say by 2031, the targets are to double medical school places full student doctors to 15,000 a year, also to increase gp training places, and to do a similar thing for nursing and midwifery students, to essentially double that by 2031. and students, to essentially double that b 2031. �* i, , i, by 2031. and to shorten some trainin: by 2031. and to shorten some training degrees _ by 2031. and to shorten some training degrees as _ by 2031. and to shorten some

training degrees as well. - by 2031. and to shorten some training degrees as well. this | by 2031. and to shorten some i training degrees as well. this is the reform _ training degrees as well. this is the reform party, _ training degrees as well. this is the reform party, they're - training degrees as well. this is the reform party, they're going training degrees as well. this is i the reform party, they're going to bring in more apprenticeships. there are already apprenticeships for nurses and podiatrists, they will bring some info doctors. —— this is the reform part. so this is about not paying tuition fees, you can earn as you learn, and they will ensure, they say, that these people are of the same level as those studying five year degrees right now, for example. they are also looking at shortening the five year medical degree, consulting on the idea that they can shorten it by one year, so students will only be learning forfour year, so students will only be learning for four years before they are out on the wards. the learning for four years before they are out on the wards.— are out on the wards. the political backdrop to _ are out on the wards. the political backdrop to all _ are out on the wards. the political backdrop to all of _ are out on the wards. the political backdrop to all of this, _ are out on the wards. the political backdrop to all of this, though, i backdrop to all of this, though, industrial action, waiting lists, bringing down waiting lists, of course, talking about stopping the boats, one of the government's five pledges, talking about that in the last hour. bringing down waiting list is another big plank in the government's gender — it ain't happening. government's gender - it ain't happening-—

government's gender - it ain't hauaenin. , i, i, ,, happening. this not address pay, there has been _ happening. this not address pay, there has been industrial- happening. this not address pay, there has been industrial action i happening. this not address pay, i there has been industrial action and there has been industrial action and there will be more some by senior doctors in the next month, and this is not looking at pay. the health secretary has said this morning that these projections, these plans are not likely to be felt as an improvement by the vast majority of patients very quickly. this is a long—term thing. they will feel some, the idea is that with retention, improving working conditions... retention, improving working conditions. . ._ retention, improving working conditions... flexible working, eah. conditions... flexible working, yeah- making _ conditions... flexible working, yeah. making it _ conditions... flexible working, yeah. making it easier- conditions... flexible working, yeah. making it easier to - conditions... flexible working, yeah. making it easier to get l conditions... flexible working, i yeah. making it easier to get senior trades yeah. making it easier to get senior grades within _ yeah. making it easier to get senior grades within the _ yeah. making it easier to get senior grades within the nhs, _ yeah. making it easier to get senior grades within the nhs, that - grades within the nhs, that hopefully they will feel that soon and it will help with working conditions, but critics say, you know, are we just going to put more people through training to be burnt out in the end if we don't improve working conditions right now, is this going to take years to have an impact on those waiting list, on those staff shortages? and what about the number of senior staff that are needed to train all the trainees? where will they come from? we don't have those right now. and another criticism has been that you cannotjust do this for the health care service, it needs to be done

for the social care service as well. the cinderella service, as they say. there will be calls coming up, get your call in, there will be no waiting list, we will try to get as many people on as we can. is it right, you worked in the nhs in the uk? i, i, i, so right, you worked in the nhs in the uk?_ so you - right, you worked in the nhs in the | uk?_ so you have uk? yeah, i have done. so you have one uk? yeah, i have done. so you have gone from. — uk? yeah, i have done. so you have gone from. my _ uk? yeah, i have done. so you have gone from, my goodness _ uk? yeah, i have done. so you have gone from, my goodness me, - uk? yeah, i have done. so you have gone from, my goodness me, from | uk? yeah, i have done. so you have i gone from, my goodness me, from one incredible british institution to another! indeed! wait until we do that phone in! anyone who comes out of hospital has to have procedures done, there might be gripes or complaints, but generally speaking, i think we have such an adoration, an adulation of those people in the nhs. i an adulation of those people in the nhs. ,. an adulation of those people in the nhs. 4' nhs. i think we saw it in the pandemic. _ nhs. i think we saw it in the pandemic, the _ nhs. i think we saw it in the pandemic, the collapse, i nhs. i think we saw it in the pandemic, the collapse, thej nhs. i think we saw it in the - pandemic, the collapse, the cheers. the clanging!— the clanging! there is huge adoration — the clanging! there is huge adoration for _ the clanging! there is huge adoration for the _ the clanging! there is huge adoration for the nhs, i

the clanging! there is huge adoration for the nhs, and| the clanging! there is huge i adoration for the nhs, and many people see it as a great british institution, as you put it. and many people will say the staff go above and beyond, but that clearly there are a waiting list, clearly there are a waiting list, clearly there are staff shortages, and the idea is, we need to wait for the detail of this plan, it is going to come in at about midday, and the questions are, can they do it, how can they do it, how can successive governments keep it going, and what will help in the short term?— the short term? right, are you dashin: the short term? right, are you dashing off? — the short term? right, are you dashing off? are _ the short term? right, are you dashing off? are you _ the short term? right, are you dashing off? are you staying i the short term? right, are you | dashing off? are you staying for the short term? right, are you i dashing off? are you staying for a few minutes?— dashing off? are you staying for a few minutes?_ feel i dashing off? are you staying for a| few minutes?_ feel free dashing off? are you staying for a i few minutes?_ feel free if few minutes? busy day? feel free if ou have few minutes? busy day? feel free if you have to — few minutes? busy day? feel free if you have to go. _ few minutes? busy day? feel free if you have to go, but _ few minutes? busy day? feel free if you have to go, but we _ few minutes? busy day? feel free if you have to go, but we have - few minutes? busy day? feel free if you have to go, but we have got i few minutes? busy day? feel free if. you have to go, but we have got some great calls coming in! emma in sevenoaks, molly in penrith, dr nicola ashby, deputy director of nursing at the royal college of nursing, hello!— nursing at the royal college of nursin: , hello! i, i, nursing, hello! hello, good morning! iwill no nursing, hello! hello, good morning! i will no for nursing, hello! hello, good morning! i will go for emma _ nursing, hello! hello, good morning! i will go for emma in _ nursing, hello! hello, good morning! i will go for emma in sevenoaks, i i will go for emma in sevenoaks, let's head for kent, he said very carefully! let's head for kent, he said very carefull ! �* ,i, let's head for kent, he said very carefull ! �* .i, i, let's head for kent, he said very carefull! ~ i, i, , carefully! about the 'unior doctors, mydaughterh carefully! about the 'unior doctors, my daughter has— carefully! about the junior doctors, my daughter hasjust _ carefully! about the junior doctors, my daughter hasjust done - carefully! about the junior doctors,

my daughter hasjust done a - carefully! about the junior doctors, i my daughter hasjust done a degree, my daughter has just done a degree, operating department practitioner, it is basically, making it easy to understand, it is like a scrub nurse, but it is specialised in either anaesthetics, scrabble post—operative care. she has done her degree in wales, although she lives in kent. if she stays and works in the welsh nhs for two years, she gets no tuition fees, they will pay her tuition fees. i don't really understand why that is not done through out the uk. as far as i am aware, they do do it in scotland, but you have to be registered in scotland. in wales, you can come into the country and work for two years afterwards. now, during the last industrial action from thejunior doctors, during the last industrial action from the junior doctors, one during the last industrial action from thejunior doctors, one of during the last industrial action from the junior doctors, one of them was a second—yearjunior doctor, he posted his payslip online, and it

was £145 that was taken because he was £145 that was taken because he was earning over £27,000 a year, he was earning over £27,000 a year, he was having £145 deducted from his wages per month. now, why are we not saying, we will pay your tuition fees if you stay with the nhs for two years, three or four years if it is a five year degree? you will guarantee you will have the staff there, thejunior guarantee you will have the staff there, the junior doctors wouldn't have the £145 deducted from their wages per month, which would mean they wouldn't necessarily need a pay rise. itjust beggars belief that this isn't done automatically, for somebody that is providing a service for their country to then be charged for their country to then be charged for it, it is just for their country to then be charged for it, it isjust mind blowing. interesting, really interesting call. i will be with you, nicola, but let's take some of these voices. jail in bedford, hello. ——jill. you

are back from a night shift, how was it? it are back from a night shift, how was it? i, , i, , �* it? it was good, it wasn't. .. surprisingly _ it? it was good, it wasn't. .. surprisingly enough, - it? it was good, it wasn't. .. surprisingly enough, it i it? it was good, it wasn't. .. l surprisingly enough, it wasn't it? it was good, it wasn't. .. - surprisingly enough, it wasn't with the nhs. — surprisingly enough, it wasn't with the nhs, but even though i am training— the nhs, but even though i am training with the nhs on the apprenticeship programme, it still doesn't _ apprenticeship programme, it still doesn't pay the bills, i still can't make _ doesn't pay the bills, i still can't make ends— doesn't pay the bills, i still can't make ends meet, so i have to do two shift~ _ make ends meet, so i have to do two shift~ so— make ends meet, so i have to do two shift~ so i_ make ends meet, so i have to do two shift. so i finish with the nhs one and then— shift. so i finish with the nhs one and then go and work in a care home as well. _ and then go and work in a care home as well. and — and then go and work in a care home as well, and then come back home and id as well, and then come back home and go back— as well, and then come back home and go back to _ as well, and then come back home and go back to studying or doing this and that — go back to studying or doing this and that. i, , , i, , and that. you must be exhausted, exhausted! _ and that. you must be exhausted, exhausted! exhausted _ and that. you must be exhausted, exhausted! exhausted is— and that. you must be exhausted, exhausted! exhausted is not - and that. you must be exhausted, exhausted! exhausted is not the i exhausted! exhausted is not the word. i exhausted! exhausted is not the word- ljust _ exhausted! exhausted is not the word. ijust manage. _ exhausted! exhausted is not the word. ijust manage. somehowl exhausted! exhausted is not thej word. ijust manage. somehowl exhausted! exhausted is not the i word. ijust manage. somehowljust word. ijust manage. somehow ijust managed _ word. ijust manage. somehow ijust managed. but my point is, i know what _ managed. but my point is, i know what the — managed. but my point is, i know what the nhs feels like and i know

what the nhs feels like and i know what the _ what the nhs feels like and i know what the care homes are like, so, really. _ what the care homes are like, so, really. i— what the care homes are like, so, really. i am — what the care homes are like, so, really, iam in what the care homes are like, so, really, i am in the what the care homes are like, so, really, iam in the nhs what the care homes are like, so, really, i am in the nhs now to get my training, but once i get the training. — my training, but once i get the training. i_ my training, but once i get the training, i will not stay in the nhs. _ training, i will not stay in the nhs, because it isjust too much for the money— nhs, because it isjust too much for the money that you get and for the work— the money that you get and for the work that— the money that you get and for the work that is— the money that you get and for the work that is expected of staff. for me, work that is expected of staff. for me. it _ work that is expected of staff. for me. it is — work that is expected of staff. for me. it is not — work that is expected of staff. for me, it is not feasible, it is not doable — me, it is not feasible, it is not doable at _ me, it is not feasible, it is not doable at all. it doesn't do it, it doesn't — doable at all. it doesn't do it, it doesn't do _ doable at all. it doesn't do it, it doesn't do it.— doesn't do it. and of course, as ever, something _ doesn't do it. and of course, as ever, something needs- doesn't do it. and of course, as ever, something needs to - doesn't do it. and of course, as ever, something needs to be i doesn't do it. and of course, as i ever, something needs to be done about the care system, the government is saying that, there are pay, recruitment and retention issues there as well. what is it like working in the nhs? it is issues there as well. what is it like working in the nhs? it is good fun, ou like working in the nhs? it is good fun. you feel— like working in the nhs? it is good fun. you feel you _ like working in the nhs? it is good fun, you feel you are _ like working in the nhs? it is good fun, you feel you are doing - like working in the nhs? it is good fun, you feel you are doing your. fun, you feel you are doing your best. _ fun, you feel you are doing your best. you — fun, you feel you are doing your best, you feel appreciated by the patients. — best, you feel appreciated by the patients, you feel appreciated by your top— patients, you feel appreciated by your top bosses, the nurses, because i'm your top bosses, the nurses, because i'm doing _ your top bosses, the nurses, because i'm doing the — your top bosses, the nurses, because i'm doing the nursing apprenticeship role. so— i'm doing the nursing apprenticeship role. so you — i'm doing the nursing apprenticeship role. so you feel supported by all

the top _ role. so you feel supported by all the top people that are around you, they are _ the top people that are around you, they are encouraging you to carry on, they are encouraging you to carry on. like. — they are encouraging you to carry on, like, you can do this, and then obviously— on, like, you can do this, and then obviously pushing you in the right direction. — obviously pushing you in the right direction, so the tutors, the cause that is— direction, so the tutors, the cause that is run— direction, so the tutors, the cause that is run on— direction, so the tutors, the cause that is run on the wards as well is at the _ that is run on the wards as well is at the university. —— course. so like _ at the university. —— course. so like me. — at the university. —— course. so like me. i— at the university. —— course. so like me, i spent three days on the ward. _ like me, i spent three days on the ward. and — like me, i spent three days on the ward, and one day in the trust university. _ ward, and one day in the trust university, and another day of study. — university, and another day of study. so _ university, and another day of study. so within two years, i should finish _ study. so within two years, i should finish as— study. so within two years, i should finish as an — study. so within two years, i should finish as an ex—apprentice and to be working _ finish as an ex—apprentice and to be working alongside nurses, so like under— working alongside nurses, so like under the — working alongside nurses, so like under the guidance of the nurses. but from — under the guidance of the nurses. but from what i have seen, the people — but from what i have seen, the people who have already qualified as nursing _ people who have already qualified as nursing associates, doing a similar 'ob nursing associates, doing a similar job to _ nursing associates, doing a similar job to the — nursing associates, doing a similar job to the nurses, the only difference is that some jobs they cannot— difference is that some jobs they cannot do, and we would have spent

two years _ cannot do, and we would have spent two years being an apprentice, the nurses— two years being an apprentice, the nurses have spent three years, and the bands _ nurses have spent three years, and the bands are different, we qualify as a bad _ the bands are different, we qualify as a bad four, this is coming at band _ as a bad four, this is coming at band five. _ as a bad four, this is coming at band five, so you end up, if you are unlucky. _ band five, so you end up, if you are unlucky, doing the same job but get unlucky, doing the same job but —— but getting — unlucky, doing the same job but —— but getting paid for band four. thank— but getting paid for band four. thank you for setting your life's course on doing this and helping people, and talking about this apprenticeship, i would like you to meet molly, who is on this now, tell us more. . meet molly, who is on this now, tell us more. , i, i, i, i, meet molly, who is on this now, tell us more. , i, i, i, us more. yes, good morning, i am a coule of us more. yes, good morning, i am a couple of weeks _ us more. yes, good morning, i am a couple of weeks away _ us more. yes, good morning, i am a couple of weeks away from - us more. yes, good morning, i am a couple of weeks away from finishing | couple of weeks away from finishing my three year nursing degree, and i have fortunately got a job as a community nurse in september. it has been a fantastic opportunity to get into the nhs and to get paid as well. fortunately, because of the pie, i have been able to get a mortgage, close to myjob, close to

my home... mortgage, close to my 'ob, close to my home. . .— my home... how have you got a mortgage?! _ my home... how have you got a mortgage?! lt — my home... how have you got a mortgage?! it is _ my home... how have you got a mortgage?! it is the _ my home... how have you got a mortgage?! it is the three-year| mortgage?! it is the three-year fully funded _ mortgage?! it is the three-year fully funded and _ mortgage?! it is the three-year fully funded and paid _ mortgage?! it is the three-year fully funded and paid nursing i fully funded and paid nursing apprenticeship, and fortunately for me i have been able to get a mortgage on that close to my family home, which isjust fantastic. i was very, very lucky, but the apprenticeship has enabled me to stay close to home and to do a job that i absolutely love. truth? stay close to home and to do a 'ob that i absolutely lovei that i absolutely love. why do you love it? i love _ that i absolutely love. why do you love it? i love driving _ that i absolutely love. why do you love it? i love driving around, i love it? i love driving around, meetin: love it? i love driving around, meeting new _ love it? i love driving around, meeting new people, - love it? i love driving around, meeting new people, looking| love it? i love driving around, i meeting new people, looking after people. i am very family oriented, just the privilege of going into people's homes and looking after people's homes and looking after people as if they were your own family, ijust find it so rewarding. yeah, those rewards... nicola, do comment on what you have heard so far, powerfulstuff comment on what you have heard so far, powerful stuff from emma, talking about her daughter, her medical degree in wales, and two

really dedicated people injill and molly, but there is an undercurrent to this, and i'm looking at the text and social media as well, nicola, and social media as well, nicola, and the undercurrent is a big, hang on a minute...— on a minute... absolutely. i think we have really — on a minute... absolutely. i think we have really welcomed - on a minute... absolutely. i think we have really welcomed that i on a minute... absolutely. i think we have really welcomed that we | on a minute... absolutely. i think- we have really welcomed that we have got our first work —— workforce plan coming out, that is really important to note, but there is a hang on a minute, and we need to consider not only that these nurses that we have been talking to previously, the trainee nursing associates, support workers and registered nurses, it is notjust workers and registered nurses, it is not just about five years' time workers and registered nurses, it is notjust about five years' time — it is about now, it is about how we retain staff now, how we make them feel valued, and how we ensure that we have got a really good educator and leadership workforce, which is what we were talking about previously, to make sure that there was nurses remain really competent, highly skilled to deliver the care,.

i have been in the nhs for many years, i have been an educatorfor 30 years, and it is essential that we consider how we train and educate nurses moving forward. but it we consider how we train and educate nurses moving forward.— nurses moving forward. but it is important _ nurses moving forward. but it is important for — nurses moving forward. but it is important for the _ nurses moving forward. but it is important for the government i nurses moving forward. but it is i important for the government to... what is the word? portray the facts, presented as being backed by clinical professionals, senior nhs management, is it? it clinical professionals, senior nhs management, is it?— clinical professionals, senior nhs management, is it?- we i clinical professionals, senior nhs i management, is it?- we have management, is it? it is... we have not seen the — management, is it? it is... we have not seen the full _ management, is it? it is... we have not seen the full plan _ management, is it? it is... we have not seen the full plan yet, _ management, is it? it is... we have not seen the full plan yet, i - management, is it? it is... we have not seen the full plan yet, i have i not seen the full plan yet, i have to say we haven't seen the full plan yet, we have had some briefings are the full plan, so i'm really interested to see what is presented today by rishi and the other ministers that come forward to... it ministers that come forward to... it is good you are on first name terms with them! {lii is good you are on first name terms with them! ii, , ,~ is good you are on first name terms with them! ii, , , i, i, with them! of course! so you are waitin: to with them! of course! so you are waiting to see — with them! of course! so you are waiting to see the _ with them! of course! so you are waiting to see the meat - with them! of course! so you are waiting to see the meat on - with them! of course! so you are waiting to see the meat on the i waiting to see the meat on the balance first, yeah? we are, and these are areas we have been talking about when we have been coming in and pay negotiations, making sure

that nurses are valued, that they are paid, that they have working times and conditions which are appropriate and also addressing issues across social care, and i'm pleased to hear that not only the callers but the show was addressing the fact that the social care and nhs is one, and patients passed through from birth to death, everyone needs a nurse, and both systems need investing in. but from the planned's perspective, we need to see what the detailers, and then we will be able to respond more around that.— we will be able to respond more around that. i, , i, , i, around that. one detail is that, you know, we around that. one detail is that, you know. we do _ around that. one detail is that, you know, we do have _ around that. one detail is that, you know, we do have 112,000 - around that. one detail is that, you know, we do have 112,000 clinicali know, we do have 112,000 clinical vacancies and an ageing population, as mentioned, and growth, that is going to leave us with a shortfall in the amount of 360,000 by 2037, so they've got to do something.— they've got to do something. they've not to do they've got to do something. they've got to do something, _ they've got to do something. they've got to do something, but _ they've got to do something. they've got to do something, but they - they've got to do something. they've got to do something, but they have i got to do something, but they have to remember that the workforce currently in the nhs, it needs to remain buoyant and float right at

this moment in time, so while we are really welcomed the forward thinking plan, we need to address what is going on now. nursing is an amazing career, a tray for life, you have such fantastic opportunities across the nhs and social care, and i think we need to attract more people and keep them, we need to show them that we value them. keep them, we need to show them that we value them-— keep them, we need to show them that we value them. mm-hmm. questions as to whether we — we value them. mm-hmm. questions as to whether we can _ we value them. mm-hmm. questions as to whether we can shorten _ we value them. mm-hmm. questions as to whether we can shorten training, i to whether we can shorten training, which is something that was mentioned earlier on. there are lots of, you know, technical things in there that people will debate about and question, but, you know, the direction of travel is interesting and welcomed by many. rayne in dorset. good morning. do you welcome the announcement and how it is going, the bold and ambitious aspirations? l going, the bold and ambitious aspirations?— going, the bold and ambitious asirations? i, , i , aspirations? i have 'ust recently experiencedh aspirations? i have 'ust recently experienced three i aspirations? i have just recently experienced three months - aspirations? i have just recently experienced three months of. aspirations? i have just recently| experienced three months of the aspirations? i have just recently - experienced three months of the nhs, and i pulled out due tojust being

so exhausting and finding that it is lon- so exhausting and finding that it is long days — so exhausting and finding that it is long days and gruelling work, short—staffed. i am a health care assistant. — short—staffed. i am a health care assistant, and i found that we were short—staffed more than nurses and doctors _ short—staffed more than nurses and doctors were, and we take the brunt of the _ doctors were, and we take the brunt of the heavy— doctors were, and we take the brunt of the heavy load, in other words looking _ of the heavy load, in other words looking after 20—30 patients in a ward. _ looking after 20—30 patients in a ward. and — looking after 20—30 patients in a ward, and you are doing the beds, the washes. — ward, and you are doing the beds, the washes, and some days i experienced being on my own, having to beg _ experienced being on my own, having to beg nurses to help me. prettyt to beg nurses to help me. pretty demoralising. _ to beg nurses to help me. pretty demoralising. by _ to beg nurses to help me. pretty demoralising. by the _ to beg nurses to help me. pretty demoralising. by the end - to beg nurses to help me. pretty demoralising. by the end of i to beg nurses to help me. pretty demoralising. by the end of a i to beg nurses to help me. pretty demoralising. by the end of a 12| to beg nurses to help me. pretty- demoralising. by the end of a 12 and a half hour day. _ demoralising. by the end of a 12 and a half hour day, you _ demoralising. by the end of a 12 and a half hour day, you are _ demoralising. by the end of a 12 and a half hour day, you are shattered, i a half hour day, you are shattered, i a half hour day, you are shattered, i mean _ a half hour day, you are shattered, i mean really, really exhausted. so i mean really, really exhausted. sc when i mean really, really exhausted. when they i mean really, really exhausted. ’sr when they are saying,

i mean really, really exhausted. ser when they are saying, look, i mean really, really exhausted. sr when they are saying, look, we need to recruit, we need to tackle the retention crisis... go on. to recruit, we need to tackle the retention crisis. .. go on.- retention crisis... go on. yes, while i retention crisis... go on. yes, while i was — retention crisis... go on. yes, while i was there, _ retention crisis... go on. yes, while i was there, three i retention crisis... go on. yes, | while i was there, three others resigned. — while i was there, three others resigned, so if they don't give you that support with other health care assistants, a second and a third one in a large _ assistants, a second and a third one in a large ward, you are going to eventually— in a large ward, you are going to eventually resign. one girl had been there _ eventually resign. one girl had been there for— eventually resign. one girl had been there for seven years, she has resigned _ there for seven years, she has resigned. that is a bad sign, isn't it? ., , resigned. that is a bad sign, isn't it? ., y , resigned. that is a bad sign, isn't it? y , ., resigned. that is a bad sign, isn't it? , , ., ~ ., ., it? molly, interested to know what ou think it? molly, interested to know what you think of _ it? molly, interested to know what you think of that _ it? molly, interested to know what you think of that point _ it? molly, interested to know what you think of that point there - it? molly, interested to know what you think of that point there from | you think of that point there from rayne, given that you are, you know, full steam ahead, nine weeks left of your nursing apprenticeship, your reaction to rayne there?- reaction to rayne there? yeah, i think what _ reaction to rayne there? yeah, i think what she _ reaction to rayne there? yeah, i think what she is _ reaction to rayne there? yeah, i think what she is saying - reaction to rayne there? yeah, i think what she is saying is - reaction to rayne there? yeah, i think what she is saying is very l think what she is saying is very valid. i was an hca prior to completing the apprenticeship, and i completely understand where she was coming from. it is just the times we

are in at the moment, and it definitely needs addressed. i am very lucky that i have got such fantastic colleagues that will always help me, and ijust think that, you know, definitely a sign of the times, but i am so passionate about the work that i do, and in situations like that, it is so important to really help your colleagues, but you definitely cannot do that if there is nobody backing you up, i completely understand where she's coming from. rayne. understand where she's coming from. ra ne. , ~ understand where she's coming from. ra ne. , . ., . ., rayne. yes. well, if that changed, i would have — rayne. yes. well, if that changed, i would have stayed _ rayne. yes. well, if that changed, i would have stayed on. _ rayne. yes. well, if that changed, i would have stayed on. i _ rayne. yes. well, if that changed, i would have stayed on. i did - rayne. yes. well, if that changed, i would have stayed on. i did ask - rayne. yes. well, if that changed, i would have stayed on. i did ask if i would have stayed on. i did ask if they could — would have stayed on. i did ask if they could please at least poke a second _ they could please at least poke a second person to help me, and most days there _ second person to help me, and most days there was a second person. i still think— days there was a second person. i still think a — days there was a second person. i still think a third would have helped — still think a third would have helped a _ still think a third would have helped a lot, because sometimes you have got— helped a lot, because sometimes you have got to _ helped a lot, because sometimes you have got to work together, two people — have got to work together, two peddle to — have got to work together, two people to help a person who is bedridden, so if you can imagine trying _ bedridden, so if you can imagine trying to— bedridden, so if you can imagine

trying to get round, we do blood pressures. — trying to get round, we do blood pressures, we do a lot of extras, notjust— pressures, we do a lot of extras, notjust the — pressures, we do a lot of extras, notjust the basics... | pressures, we do a lot of extras, notjust the basics. . ._ not 'ust the basics... i feelthree is notjust the basics... i feelthree is needed _ notjust the basics... i feelthree is needed in _ notjust the basics... i feelthree is needed in a _ notjust the basics... i feelthree is needed in a ward. _ notjust the basics... i feelthree is needed in a ward. i _ notjust the basics... i feelthree is needed in a ward. i know, - notjust the basics... i feelthree is needed in a ward. i know, i i is needed in a ward. i know, i auree, is needed in a ward. i know, i agree. i— is needed in a ward. i know, i agree, i think _ is needed in a ward. i know, i agree, i think when _ is needed in a ward. i know, i agree, i think when i - is needed in a ward. i know, i agree, i think when i have - is needed in a ward. i know, i l agree, i think when i have been is needed in a ward. i know, i - agree, i think when i have been a student— agree, i think when i have been a student on— agree, i think when i have been a student on the _ agree, i think when i have been a student on the wards, _ agree, i think when i have been a student on the wards, i _ agree, i think when i have been a student on the wards, i have - student on the wards, i have definitely— student on the wards, i have definitely helped _ student on the wards, i have definitely helped health - student on the wards, i have l definitely helped health cares, student on the wards, i have - definitely helped health cares, and i definitely helped health cares, and ithink. _ definitely helped health cares, and ithink. how— definitely helped health cares, and i think, how can _ definitely helped health cares, and i think, how can you _ definitely helped health cares, and i think, how can you cope - definitely helped health cares, and i think, how can you cope with - definitely helped health cares, and i think, how can you cope with two| i think, how can you cope with two on a _ i think, how can you cope with two on a busy— i think, how can you cope with two on a busy ward? _ i think, how can you cope with two on a busy ward? as _ i think, how can you cope with two on a busy ward? as a _ i think, how can you cope with two on a busy ward? as a student - i think, how can you cope with two . on a busy ward? as a student nurse, you are _ on a busy ward? as a student nurse, you are atways — on a busy ward? as a student nurse, you are always roped _ on a busy ward? as a student nurse, you are always roped in _ on a busy ward? as a student nurse, you are always roped in to _ on a busy ward? as a student nurse, you are always roped in to help, - you are always roped in to help, which _ you are always roped in to help, which is — you are always roped in to help, which is fantastic, _ you are always roped in to help, which is fantastic, but _ you are always roped in to help, which is fantastic, but i - you are always roped in to help, which is fantastic, but i was - which is fantastic, but i was thinking, _ which is fantastic, but i was thinking, how— which is fantastic, but i was thinking, how do _ which is fantastic, but i was thinking, how do these - which is fantastic, but i was| thinking, how do these staff which is fantastic, but i was - thinking, how do these staff cope and manage? _ thinking, how do these staff cope and manage? such— thinking, how do these staff cope and manage? such long - thinking, how do these staff cope and manage? such long 12 - thinking, how do these staff cope and manage? such long 12 and i thinking, how do these staff cope and manage? such long 12 and a i thinking, how do these staff cope - and manage? such long 12 and a half hour shifts _ and manage? such long 12 and a half hour shifts idie— and manage? such long 12 and a half hour shifts. ~ ., �* ., ., hour shifts. we don't have an 0 tion. hour shifts. we don't have an option- we — hour shifts. we don't have an option. we either _ hour shifts. we don't have an option. we either have - hour shifts. we don't have an option. we either have to - hour shifts. we don't have an option. we either have to do | hour shifts. we don't have an. option. we either have to do it hour shifts. we don't have an - option. we either have to do it or we resign — option. we either have to do it or we resign. why do we deal with that, you know? _ we resign. why do we deal with that, you know? anyway. i have done it. i am you know? anyway. i have done it. i ant hack— you know? anyway. i have done it. i ant back to — you know? anyway. i have done it. i am back to the care industry, i am a health— am back to the care industry, i am a health care — am back to the care industry, i am a health care worker, and i do live in care work— health care worker, and i do live in care work as — health care worker, and i do live in care work as well, and that is

probably— care work as well, and that is probably where i will end my work life. �* probably where i will end my work life. . ., ., . , life. and another thing which is ointed life. and another thing which is pointed out _ life. and another thing which is pointed out by _ life. and another thing which is pointed out by an _ life. and another thing which is pointed out by an extensive - life. and another thing which is i pointed out by an extensive block life. and another thing which is - pointed out by an extensive block by a health professional, a man who knows his onions on this, david oliver, he hasjust sent knows his onions on this, david oliver, he has just sent this to me, hence why i am staring down at my phone all the time, apologies if you are watching! we are training all these people to work in our wonderful nhs — if they hit that brick wall of disillusionment that we hear about, we heard there from rayne, for example, they might toddle off, and good luck to them, toddle off, and good luck to them, to other climes and denude our health service further, because it is more rewarding, a better lifestyle, less pressure to go and work in auckland general. completely, i'm really interested to hear what the new flexible working approach will be. i think there is

that sustainable funding for education, because one of the things we do know is that nurses do not receive sustainable funding for education, it is done in their own time on the whole, and the majority of it is funded by themselves, also impacting their pay. and therefore that makes another country that will support that more attractive, so thatis support that more attractive, so that is something we have to look at and address, and i hope this plan goes some way towards sustaining that. ., goes some way towards sustaining that. . , ., goes some way towards sustaining that. . ,., ,, goes some way towards sustaining that. . ., ., ., that. yeah, so if you are going to be in a room _ that. yeah, so if you are going to be in a room with _ that. yeah, so if you are going to be in a room with rishi _ that. yeah, so if you are going to be in a room with rishi sunak- be in a room with rishi sunak anytime soon, given elevated status...? ! anytime soon, given elevated status- - - ?_ anytime soon, given elevated status. . . ? anytime soon, given elevated status...? . , ., , , status...? i am sure patty will be havin: status...? i am sure patty will be having those _ status...? i am sure patty will be having those conversations - status...? i am sure patty will be having those conversations and i having those conversations and continue building on the conversations we have around pay, i am absolutely sure of it. if conversations we have around pay, i am absolutely sure of it.— am absolutely sure of it. if ritchie sa s, am absolutely sure of it. if ritchie says. nicola. _ am absolutely sure of it. if ritchie says. nicola. i— am absolutely sure of it. if ritchie says, nicola, i heard— am absolutely sure of it. if ritchie says, nicola, i heard you - am absolutely sure of it. if ritchie says, nicola, i heard you on - am absolutely sure of it. if ritchie says, nicola, i heard you on the i says, nicola, i heard you on the radio, what do i need to do here? —— rishi. what would you say to him? i rishi. what would you say to him? i would say don'tjust rishi. what would you say to him? i would say don't just look at what is

would say don'tjust look at what is happening now, do not erode the nursing degree, you need to look across the board at health and social care equally and give people create opportunities to make them feel valued and recognise just how wonderful nursing is. it is feel valued and recognise 'ust how wonderful nursing is._ wonderful nursing is. it is a fulfillin: wonderful nursing is. it is a fulfilling career, _ wonderful nursing is. it is a fulfilling career, sell- wonderful nursing is. it is a fulfilling career, sell it - wonderful nursing is. it is a fulfilling career, sell it to l wonderful nursing is. it is a i fulfilling career, sell it to us. wonderful nursing is. it is a - fulfilling career, sell it to us. it is a fantastic career otherwise i would not have been a nurse for 36 years, an amazing career, you meet so many different people, not only in the health service, but as patients. we touch everybody�*s lives, and this is because we want to do it, we are passionate about what we do, and i would want to do nothing else, that is really how i should finish it... nothing else, that is really how i should finish it. . ._ nothing else, that is really how i should finish it... you would want to do nothing _ should finish it... you would want to do nothing else? _ should finish it... you would want to do nothing else? no, - should finish it. .. you would want to do nothing else? no, i - should finish it... you would want to do nothing else? no, i want i should finish it... you would want to do nothing else? no, i want to| to do nothing else? no, i want to remain a nurse _ to do nothing else? no, i want to remain a nurse and _ to do nothing else? no, i want to remain a nurse and i _ to do nothing else? no, i want to remain a nurse and i am - to do nothing else? no, i want to remain a nurse and i am proud i to do nothing else? no, i want to remain a nurse and i am proud ofj remain a nurse and i am proud of being a nurse and i would never want to be anything but a nurse, and if i reflect on 36 years, i made the right choice to come into nursing. what is the best thing about being a nurse? the what is the best thing about being a nurse? , , ., ,., , .,

nurse? the best thing about being a nurse? the best thing about being a nurse is seeing _ nurse? the best thing about being a nurse is seeing our _ nurse? the best thing about being a nurse is seeing our patients - nurse? the best thing about being a nurse is seeing our patients get - nurse is seeing our patients get better or, if they are not able to get better and they are end of life, giving them quality and of life and making sure you recognise you have touched everybody�*s lives as a nurse, you have touched your patient, theirfamily, their patient, their family, their friends, patient, theirfamily, their friends, and that it's really powerful, i think, friends, and that it's really powerful, ithink, and really important to us all as nurses. and i think the nursing profession, we do this because we want to do this, because we are passionate about that, and you need to keep us in the profession, you need us to feel valued, and you need those terms and conditions and the correct pay to do that. ., ~ conditions and the correct pay to do that. . ,, , ., conditions and the correct pay to do that. ., ~' , ., , conditions and the correct pay to do that. . ,, ,, , . that. thank you very much indeed, and of course _ that. thank you very much indeed, and of course 30 _ that. thank you very much indeed, and of course 30 -- _ that. thank you very much indeed, and of course 30 -- 36 _ that. thank you very much indeed, and of course 30 -- 36 years, - and of course 30 —— 36 years, helping 70 people, you should be on the next honours list, rather than some of the recent contentious choices! i hope it is lady nicola ashby next time we talk to you. thank you very much indeed, the deputy director of nursing at the

rcn. we have got some breaking news to bring you from the metropolitan police. a boy believed to be 15 and a 23—year—old man was stabbed to death in islington, north london last night, they the met have announced. a third victim was also found at an address in n19, he was taken to hospital, his injury is not thought to be life—threatening. the specialist crime command have launched an investigation, and extensive crime scene is in place, and urgent inquiries are ongoing. police believe a large number of people were present when the attack took place and are urging witnesses and i was with information to come forward. they have been no arrests at this early stage. a section 60

order granting please extra stop and search powers has been authorised. andy carter said, my thoughts are with the families of the two victims who have suffered such an unimaginable loss in this unacceptable incident. we will support our colleagues as they investigate, and members of the public will see increased policing presence in the area. one more paragraph, ifi presence in the area. one more paragraph, if i may, ithink presence in the area. one more paragraph, if i may, i think it is important. i urge anyone who has information that can help us establish exactly what has happened to approach those offices or contact us immediately. a man and a boy have lost their lives, we must now work together to identify those responsible and remove them from our streets. another tragic stabbing in north london, in islington. back to our discussion on the nhs, more on that on the bbc news website and bbc news channel, of course, and all our outlets throughout the day. james,

in taunton? hi. outlets throughout the day. james, in taunton?— in taunton? hi, nicky, thanks for havin: in taunton? hi, nicky, thanks for having me _ in taunton? hi, nicky, thanks for having me on _ in taunton? hi, nicky, thanks for having me on the _ in taunton? hi, nicky, thanks for having me on the show. - in taunton? hi, nicky, thanks for having me on the show. it - in taunton? hi, nicky, thanks for having me on the show. it is - in taunton? hi, nicky, thanks for| having me on the show. it is good ou are having me on the show. it is good you are there- _ having me on the show. it is good you are there. i _ having me on the show. it is good you are there. i asked _ having me on the show. it is good you are there. i asked the - having me on the show. it is good. you are there. i asked the question of nicola ashby, this plan, a five year plan, she made the point that it should be longer than five years, it should be longer than five years, it is a vision, but they should be more of a vision. if you were talking to rishi sunak today, what would be the one thing you would say to him about this and about what needs to happen?— to him about this and about what needs to happen? well, i'd 'ust make sure he needs to happen? well, i'd 'ust make he was — needs to happen? well, i'd 'ust make sure he was looking h needs to happen? well, i'd 'ust make sure he was looking at _ needs to happen? well, i'd 'ust make sure he was looking at the h needs to happen? well, i'djust make sure he was looking at the process i sure he was looking at the process of actually becoming a doctor in the nhs a bit more closely. the process, as it stands, is that you deal with as it stands, is that you deal with a five years degree, you take on £100,000 of debt, and then you do training placements, general placements, anywhere up and down the country, day shifts, night shifts, you don't get any say for two years of your life, think about the impact that would have if you want to have

a family or take out a mortgage. but thatis a family or take out a mortgage. but that is not a sacrifice, exactly. after you have done no seven years, taken on your debt and moved up and down the country, you need to compete for really intense specialty training places, which are highly competitive. most people who apply for a place to become an oncology doctor will not get it under will have to do something else. you are poorly paid throughout all of this training, i would say, relative to your experience and value. you know, it can take seven years of base training, plus an additional six or seven years of specialty training before you are even close to qualifying as a doctor. you're taking on £100,000 worth of debt, you have almost no say over your life, where you are living, if you can start a family. you are not earning much money for 15 years of your life in many cases. i know this because i got into medical school this year and qualified for extra medical school, this year and qualified for extra

medicalschool, i this year and qualified for extra medical school, i qualified for bristol medical school. you go through a lot of prerequisite exams, you have tb of a certain calibre to get into these places, and when you are really looking into it, you can end up in a position as a doctor in this country where you are earning £40,000 or £60,000 per yearfor your entire career, that is after you have taken on £100,000 worth of debt, after you have made sacrifices for 15 years, not being able to start a family, not being able to live where you want, and for me, the risk was not worth the reward. so i decided not to become a doctor, despite qualifying and getting into medical school, despite qualifying and getting into medicalschool, i despite qualifying and getting into medical school, i decided it wasn't worth it. notjust forfinancial reasons, but for the other reasons i laid out, you have no control over your life for that period of time. for me, i need to have a family and hopefully that will happen for me, and itjust wouldn't be possible to support them, in person or

financially, through becoming a doctor, for that reason i think the system is fundamentally flawed. james, thank you your call. really appreciate it. it is 10.33, more to come. i will come to some text messages soon, but first the news. rishi sunak will announce a 15 year strategy for nhs training today, saying it is one of his most significant conference as prime minister. the foreign office minister zac goldsmith — who was accused yesterday of undermining a commons investigation into borisjohnson — is resigning. in a letter, lord goldsmith said he was horrified at the government abandoning its promises on climate change.

the french prime minister lisabeth borne has described violent protests in france as inexcusable after 40,000 police officers were deployed to deal with a third night of unrest. it's after a teenage boy of algerian and moroccan descent was shot dead by a police officer on tuesday. and italian police say a tourist from the uk was caught carving names into the wall of rome's colosseum last week. they haven't named him but if charged and convicted he could face a large fine or up to five years in prison. shourjo sarkar has the sport. england's batting will be back under the microscope as they resume day three of the second ashes test. elly oldroyd is at lords. lots of criticism of england's batting yesterday, particularly the mad hour in which they lost 34 34 to australia was not a strategy of the short ball. but they are still in a pretty good position. 278—4. 138 runs behind, but ben stokes is on 17, and harry brooke on 45 to resume. no news on if nathan lyon

will be able to bowl after he limped off with what looked like a serious calf injury yesterday.— off with what looked like a serious calf injury yesterday. calf in'ury yesterday. there will be ball calf injury yesterday. there will be ball by ball — calf injury yesterday. there will be ball by ball commentary _ calf injury yesterday. there will be ball by ball commentary of - calf injury yesterday. there will be ball by ball commentary of the i ball by ball commentary of the cricket on five sport extra. the draw for wimbledon, which starts on monday, is being made right now. elena rybakina will begin the defence of the women's singles title against the american, shelby rogers. world number one iga swiatek will open up against china's zhu lin. and the uncapped number eight, tom willis, has been named in the england training squad for the rugby world cup. however, there's no place for gloucester—bound zach mercer. the experienced hooker luke cowan—dickie has been ruled out of the tournament in france because of his ongoing shoulder problem.

this bold and applauded, in some places, questioned in others, inevitably, their workplace plan that rishi sunak is going to be talking about a little bit later on, we are talking about it this morning, some terrific calls, just looking for his particular quote on this. i will bring it to you when i can find it. this. i will bring it to you when i canfind it. he this. i will bring it to you when i can find it. he has laid it out, the principle of what it means. or what he would like to mean. the nhs relies on staff, says a it relies on them jeopardising their own health to help patients. my partner as a consultant on seeing the sacrifices she has made for such little return, i would never recommend anybody become a doctor if they wanted money

they would not become doctors they make huge sacrifices. as do nurses and other nhs makers. —— workers. would you join the nhs? i have worked in the nhs for 20 years as a nurse, it is sad to see the nhs in the state it is in. successive governments have failed the nhs. the government's new investment for the nhs seems like we are using a lot of moneyjust to train nhs staff to get the skills to take or work in private hospitals. the retention is paramount. so pay nhs what they are worth. thanks one and all. let's go with calls and carla in wales, and sue near aylesbury. good morning, carla. hello, sue. you havejust retired. don't look back in anger? no, i'm actually quite sad with what

is happening. when i firstjoined, and i loved my work, many, many years ago, everyone worked as a team together, we all helped each other out. latterly, in the latter years, thatjust out. latterly, in the latter years, that just didn't out. latterly, in the latter years, thatjust didn't happen. there is just such a lack of communication which, to me, wastes money and wastes resources.— wastes resources. that's interesting. _ wastes resources. that's interesting. so _ wastes resources. that's interesting. so what - wastes resources. that's - interesting. so what happened wastes resources. that's _ interesting. so what happened along the way? interesting. so what happened along the wa ? ~ ., interesting. so what happened along thewa? ., . the way? well, for instance, when i first used to — the way? well, for instance, when i first used to work _ the way? well, for instance, when i first used to work in _ the way? well, for instance, when i first used to work in hospital, - the way? well, for instance, when i first used to work in hospital, you l first used to work in hospital, you would knock on the doctor's doors and the consultants, they would come to you. oh, i've got a patient, is it ok if i sent them down? or you would knock on their doors. and you got the patient there. it was done

and dusted, and sorted. not referring back to the gp and going around in an inevitable circle. it's just madness. and it's so frustrating when you are a clinician and you can't get something done, when you've got the patient there. i have to say about ahp, we all know doctors and nurses are extremely important, but all you ever hear about, ahp, and all of the other people that work in hospitals, admin staff who are paid a pittance. but they are so important to the running of the place. porters, catering staff, domestics. they are so important. but nobody ever hears about them. and they are paid an absolute pittance. please lets not

forget them. you know, we've got this integrated care board, you have only got doctors and nurses mostly only got doctors and nurses mostly on those. you don't have ahps sitting at the top table, describing what needs to be done. we are firefighting, when we used to do prevention and health. can firefighting, when we used to do prevention and health.— prevention and health. can you exlain prevention and health. can you exoiain to _ prevention and health. can you explain to people _ prevention and health. can you explain to people who - prevention and health. can you explain to people who don't i prevention and health. can you i explain to people who don't know what on ahp is?— what on ahp is? allied health professional, _ what on ahp is? allied health professional, you _ what on ahp is? allied health professional, you have - what on ahp is? allied health l professional, you have physios, radiographers, dieticians, podiatrists, paramedics across the board, who are equally important for the care of the patient. there was a really good article written by andrew gregory, in the guardian, last autumn. it's had millions of people in the uk are suffering poor

health because they miss out on vital rehabilitation, particularly after strokes, heart attacks, cancer, which in turn is also heaping further pressure on the nhs, a damning report warns. basically we are sticking plasters on everything. we are not actually preventing. that is up to us all. we are all potential patients. we need to take responsibility for our own health as well. let's face it, we don't, do we? a lot of people don't. they expect to be able to have a magic one waved and somebodyjust say, yes, we can sort that out for you. but we need to take care of ourselves as well. [10 but we need to take care of ourselves as well.— but we need to take care of ourselves as well. , ., ,, ourselves as well. do you think the government _ ourselves as well. do you think the government needs _ ourselves as well. do you think the government needs to _ ourselves as well. do you think the government needs to do _ ourselves as well. do you think the government needs to do more, i ourselves as well. do you think the government needs to do more, be| ourselves as well. do you think the - government needs to do more, be more interventionist about what we are eating? how we are living? what we

are smoking?— are smoking? absolutely. the incidence of _ are smoking? absolutely. the incidence of diabetes - are smoking? absolutely. the incidence of diabetes in - are smoking? absolutely. the incidence of diabetes in this i incidence of diabetes in this country has rocketed. i can't hear you now. i country has rocketed. i can't hear ou now. .., country has rocketed. i can't hear ou now. .. ., country has rocketed. i can't hear ou now. ., , ., country has rocketed. i can't hear you now-_ 0k- - country has rocketed. i can't hear you now._ 0k. it i country has rocketed. i can't hear. you now._ 0k. it has you now. i can hear you. 0k. it has rocketed. — you now. i can hear you. 0k. it has rocketed. and _ you now. i can hear you. 0k. it has rocketed, and the _ you now. i can hear you. 0k. it has rocketed, and the impact _ you now. i can hear you. 0k. it has rocketed, and the impact on - you now. i can hear you. 0k. it has rocketed, and the impact on the i you now. i can hear you. 0k. it has l rocketed, and the impact on the nhs is monumental. it is awful. we need to really emphasise the importance, your health is initially your responsibility, and than if it is something you can't handle, then you seek professional help. i radii]! something you can't handle, then you seek professional help.— seek professional help. i will bring some nurses _ seek professional help. i will bring some nurses in, _ seek professional help. i will bring some nurses in, laura _ seek professional help. i will bring some nurses in, laura in - seek professional help. i will bring | some nurses in, laura in brighton, and the nhs in scotland has similar problems? flan and the nhs in scotland has similar roblems? ., and the nhs in scotland has similar roblems? . ., ., problems? can i also say that there is a massive. _ problems? can i also say that there is a massive, and _ problems? can i also say that there is a massive, and always _ problems? can i also say that there is a massive, and always has - problems? can i also say that there is a massive, and always has been, | is a massive, and always has been, and i remember when i firstjoined

the nhs, 40 years ago, in a quality of health throughout the nation, it is appalling. —— inequality. what mother on that, peterhead its challenges? i've worked for the nhs for 48 years — i've worked for the nhs for 48 years i— i've worked for the nhs for 48 years. i work in a gp practice. so i can see _ years. i work in a gp practice. so i can see the — years. i work in a gp practice. so i can see the other side. people are struggting — can see the other side. people are struggling with healthier eating, they are — struggling with healthier eating, they are buying cheaper products, they are buying cheaper products, they are _ they are buying cheaper products, they are going to frozen food. they can't _ they are going to frozen food. they can't afford — they are going to frozen food. they can't afford to make things from scratch — can't afford to make things from scratch. therefore, their diet is poorer, — scratch. therefore, their diet is poorer, they can't get fresh vegetables, diabetes is going higher~ — vegetables, diabetes is going higher. asthma, everything is definitely worse.— higher. asthma, everything is definitely worse. yes, but do you not think that _

definitely worse. yes, but do you not think that people _ definitely worse. yes, but do you not think that people are - definitely worse. yes, but do you not think that people are not - not think that people are not educated about how to cook as well, from years ago, from a young? we know there are a lot of people that just don't know how to cook properly. i just don't know how to cook properly-— just don't know how to cook --roerl. ,, �*, ., properly. i think it's fascinating, the conversation _ properly. i think it's fascinating, the conversation has _ properly. i think it's fascinating, the conversation has taken - properly. i think it's fascinating, the conversation has taken a i the conversation has taken a particular turn into the nhs can only do so much, because we need to do a lot for ourselves as well. i found that quote from rishi sunak on the long—term workforce plan. on the 75th anniversary of our health service, this government matter is making the largest single expansion in nhs education and training history. this is a plan for investment, a plan for reform. in the coming years, we will train twice the number of doctors, 25,000 more nurses per year, helping to cut waiting lists and improve patient care. we'll do more to retain our brilliant nhs staff, and reform the way the health system works to make sure it is fit for the future. back

to scotland, just for a second, susan, did you say you were a nurse 48 years? would you it? i still]! susan, did you say you were a nurse 48 years? would you it?— 48 years? would you it? i still love m 'ob. 48 years? would you it? i still love m “oh. i 48 years? would you it? i still love my iob- i could _ 48 years? would you it? i still love my job. i could not _ 48 years? would you it? i still love my job. i could not do _ 48 years? would you it? i still love my job. i could not do it _ 48 years? would you it? i still love my job. i could not do it if- 48 years? would you it? i still love my job. i could not do it if i - myjob. i could not do it if i didn't. but there is more precious in nurses, and it is retaining the staff. they are not retaining the staff, due to the pressures they have to work under. how many nurses are trained and leave the profession because they go aboard to work or find some thing else because they just can't cope with the stress. let me no to just can't cope with the stress. let me go to train as well, allow me, jane in redditch, hello. we have laura coming up and gemma as well. are you with us, jane? we have lost a train, but we have laura in brighton. oh, jane is there. no, she's not there. they're one minute,

next she is not. friday confusion, but it is friday. laura, good morning. am i pleased to hear your voice. l morning. am i pleased to hear your voice. ., do morning. am i pleased to hear your voice-_ do you _ morning. am i pleased to hear your voice._ do you welcome l morning. am i pleased to hear your i voice._ do you welcome the voice. i am here. do you welcome the lonu-term voice. i am here. do you welcome the long-term workforce _ voice. i am here. do you welcome the long-term workforce plan? _ voice. i am here. do you welcome the long-term workforce plan? what - voice. i am here. do you welcome the long-term workforce plan? what do i long—term workforce plan? what do you think? i long-term workforce plan? what do ou think? ., . , ., �* you think? i do. i currently don't work for the _ you think? i do. i currently don't work for the nhs, _ you think? i do. i currently don't work for the nhs, a _ you think? i do. i currently don't work for the nhs, a couple - you think? i do. i currently don't work for the nhs, a couple of i you think? i do. i currently don't i work for the nhs, a couple of years ago i decided i wanted to change careers and i wanted to work to train to be a podiatrist. ifirst careers and i wanted to work to train to be a podiatrist. i first of all look for a apprenticeship, and i couldn't find one. i have a family, i'm an older person, i have a family under the partnership would have been perfect for me, because it meant that i could earn while i was learning. i could not find one in my area. there was one that was quite a way away, it would have meant a lot of travelling, so i discount at that. i applied for a degree course.

i didn't get in last year, even though i am a manager, currently, in myjob. because i didn't have a science degree, sorry, i didn't have a science a—level, and i didn't have any experience of health care, i felt very capable of going and doing a degree course, and shadowing and podiatry as well. my point to all of this is that i feel there are too many hurdles to get into the nhs. there was a shortage of podiatrists, one of the allied health professionals that the woman was talking about earlier. thea;r professionals that the woman was talking about earlier.— talking about earlier. they are t in: to talking about earlier. they are trying to fling _ talking about earlier. they are trying to fling away _ talking about earlier. they are trying to fling away the - talking about earlier. they are i trying to fling away the hurdles. that's really good news, because i feel like apprenticeship would be great for a lot of people. there is a grant, which i am very grateful for. yes, the other point i wanted

to make was that what is hard at the moment is there is a lot of negativity in the press at the moment, and in the news, around nhs jobs. i know a fantastic paramedic, but he has put off because he sees all the negativity around being a paramedic that is in the press at the nhs in general. it is putting off young people from wanting to train in the nhs. i think it's a shame. obviously, it must be very difficult working on the nhs at the moment. ., ., . ., , moment. too much negativity, interesting- — moment. too much negativity, interesting. yeah, _ moment. too much negativity, interesting. yeah, it _ moment. too much negativity, interesting. yeah, it is - moment. too much negativity, | interesting. yeah, it is possibly -uttina interesting. yeah, it is possibly putting people _ interesting. yeah, it is possibly putting people off— interesting. yeah, it is possibly putting people off training. - interesting. yeah, it is possibly putting people off training. can interesting. yeah, it is possibly. putting people off training. can i 'ust also putting people off training. can i just also come — putting people off training. can i just also come in _ putting people off training. can i just also come in with _ putting people off training. can i just also come in with experience ofm _ just also come in with experience ofm i_ just also come in with experience ofm i am — just also come in with experience

ofm i am all— just also come in with experience of... i am all for people getting on and doing. — of... i am all for people getting on and doing, getting into management and doing, getting into management and so _ and doing, getting into management and so on. _ and doing, getting into management and so on, but the other experience that is— and so on, but the other experience that is deeply frustrating for clinicians is when you have part time _ clinicians is when you have part time management. so, when you are left and _ time management. so, when you are left and you _ time management. so, when you are left and you have a difficult problem, and a decision, there is no management available because they are part—time, there's an awful lot of that— are part—time, there's an awful lot of that that — are part—time, there's an awful lot of that that goes on now, which, when _ of that that goes on now, which, when i _ of that that goes on now, which, when i first— of that that goes on now, which, when i first started in the nhs, 40 odd years — when i first started in the nhs, 40 odd years ago, just didn't happen. i think— odd years ago, just didn't happen. i think that _ odd years ago, just didn't happen. i think that isn't fair on clinicians who— think that isn't fair on clinicians who are — think that isn't fair on clinicians who are not being paid the same amount— who are not being paid the same amount of— who are not being paid the same amount of money, and are left to pick up _ amount of money, and are left to pick up the — amount of money, and are left to pick up the pieces, or make their decisions — pick up the pieces, or make their decisions for them. is really good point. i'm just is really good point. i'm 'ust readina is really good point. i'm 'ust reading a fi is really good point. i'm 'ust reading a text i is really good point. i'm 'ust reading a text here i is really good point. i'm 'ust reading a text here as i is really good point. i'mjust reading a text here as well. | is really good point. i'm just i reading a text here as well. it's great getting all of this wisdom from people who have been working

there, or have worked there in the nhs for a long time. can there, or have worked there in the nhs for a long time.— there, or have worked there in the nhs for a long time. can i 'ust say, if ou are nhs for a long time. can i 'ust say, if you going * nhs for a long time. can i 'ust say, if you going to h nhs for a long time. can i 'ust say, if you are going to have _ nhs for a long time. can i just say, if you are going to have part - nhs for a long time. can i just say, if you are going to have part time i if you are going to have part time management, why can't they share? let's management, why can't they share? let's always — management, why can't they share? let's always have somebody there who is responsible. they have taken on the job, _ is responsible. they have taken on the job, lrut— is responsible. they have taken on the job, but please do be there to support— the job, but please do be there to support your clinicians in times of problems — support your clinicians in times of nroblems. ., .. support your clinicians in times of nroblems. ., ,, , ., , ., problems. thank you. here is a text. hello, nikki. — problems. thank you. here is a text. hello, nikki. i— problems. thank you. here is a text. hello, nikki, i need— problems. thank you. here is a text. hello, nikki, i need it— problems. thank you. here is a text. hello, nikki, i need it on _ problems. thank you. here is a text. hello, nikki, i need it on overnight i hello, nikki, i need it on overnight hospital stay for the first time this week, my chief caregiver was a band to technical assistant, kelly, who is wonderful. she took a 40 cape acre to leave her retail manager job, and her commitment and kindness were formidable. i work in the private sector and we talked about her suggestion to save costs through basic changes on her ward at the freeman hospital in newcastle. that kind of commercial mindedness is not taught at nursing schools. people like kelly are going to be pivotal

to rescuing the nhs. huge thanks to you for that. it is the fabled jane in redditch. legend. itried you for that. it is the fabled jane in redditch. legend. i tried to come to you earlier. hi. in redditch. legend. i tried to come to you earlier-— to you earlier. hi, i have been nursini to you earlier. hi, i have been nursing for— to you earlier. hi, i have been nursing for about _ to you earlier. hi, i have been nursing for about 18 _ to you earlier. hi, i have been nursing for about 18 years - to you earlier. hi, i have been| nursing for about 18 years now. to you earlier. hi, i have been - nursing for about 18 years now. the problems with stuffing and not having enough nurses to have the nurse patient ratio is nothing new. throughout my training, itjust seemed like it was the norm to be that deny climate change — despite a promise that it wet to be looking after 13 or 14 patients on a shift. my advice to rishi sunak would be to make it legislation to have a patient nurse ratios that

would minimise staff feeling burned out. the nursing staff and medical staff can only speak on behalf of nurses, but working on a busy ward, we pulled in so many different directions. obviously we care for the patients, but it genuinely doesn't feel like the actual management care for the nurses. if you work an entire ship without a break, that is normal. —— entire shift. the nurses are almost treated like they are robots that don't need to go to the toilet, they don't need to go to the toilet, they don't need to have a drink, they don't need to have a break and just work a whole shift. have a break and 'ust work a whole shift. ., , ~' have a break and 'ust work a whole shift. ., a , ., have a break and 'ust work a whole shift. ., a ,, ., shift. let me ask you one thing before coming _ shift. let me ask you one thing before coming to _ shift. let me ask you one thing before coming to gemma, - shift. let me ask you one thing before coming to gemma, this| shift. let me ask you one thing i before coming to gemma, this is shift. let me ask you one thing - before coming to gemma, this isjust individual use, when people say the nhs is on its knees, it has never been under such pressure, it's never been under such pressure, it's never

been a worse place to work, in the sense of what you are required to do for the money, do you agree with that? l for the money, do you agree with that? “ for the money, do you agree with that? 4' ., , for the money, do you agree with that? ~ , , for the money, do you agree with that? ~ , that? i think it has probably been like this for _ that? i think it has probably been like this for some _ that? i think it has probably been like this for some time. - that? i think it has probably been like this for some time. i - that? i think it has probably been like this for some time. i think i that? i think it has probably been i like this for some time. i think may be the _ like this for some time. i think may be the public are just more aware of it and _ be the public are just more aware of it and staff— be the public are just more aware of it and staff are more prepared to speak— it and staff are more prepared to speak out— it and staff are more prepared to speak out now. it has probably become — speak out now. it has probably become a _ speak out now. it has probably become a pivotal point, where everybody has put their hands up and said that _ everybody has put their hands up and said that something has to change. we don't _ said that something has to change. we don't get paid a huge amount of money _ we don't get paid a huge amount of money i_ we don't get paid a huge amount of money. i have been there for 18 years. _ money. i have been there for 18 years. i— money. i have been there for 18 years. iget— money. i have been there for 18 years, i get paid £17 per hour. and you think— years, i get paid £17 per hour. and you think i — years, i get paid £17 per hour. and you think i could go and sit on a checkout — you think i could go and sit on a checkout in _ you think i could go and sit on a checkout in a supermarket and probably— checkout in a supermarket and probably pick up not much less, to be honest. — probably pick up not much less, to be honest, with a lot less responsibility. i could probably have _ responsibility. i could probably have more choice over my hours. i probably— have more choice over my hours. i

probably would not be working as many _ probably would not be working as many unsociable hours, and i would definitely— many unsociable hours, and i would definitely know what i was going to be working without relying on and off duty _ be working without relying on and off duty that only gives you a set period _ off duty that only gives you a set period of— off duty that only gives you a set period of time going forward as to what _ period of time going forward as to what your— period of time going forward as to what your shifts are going to be. you can't — what your shifts are going to be. you can't plan your life.- what your shifts are going to be. you can't plan your life. thank you, jane. you can't plan your life. thank you, jane- gemma _ you can't plan your life. thank you, jane. gemma in _ you can't plan your life. thank you, jane. gemma in derby, _ you can't plan your life. thank you, jane. gemma in derby, hello. - you can't plan your life. thank you, jane. gemma in derby, hello. hi. i you can't plan your life. thank you, i jane. gemma in derby, hello. hi. let me jane. gemma in derby, hello. fl. let me see, you started an apprenticeship in 2016 as a clinical apprentice, now a nursing associate. how has it been, how is it? yes. apprentice, now a nursing associate. how has it been, how is it?— how has it been, how is it? yes, the nressures how has it been, how is it? yes, the pressures are _ how has it been, how is it? yes, the pressures are there. _ how has it been, how is it? yes, the pressures are there. everybody - how has it been, how is it? yes, the i pressures are there. everybody knows them. but my experience has been really supportive. we can't deny those pressures and they are only increasing. but i think there is a large amount of staff that are pushing through and keeping in mind while we are here, we make a difference to our patients and communities.— difference to our patients and communities. , ., ,, ., . , ., communities. this workforce plan, does it fill you _

communities. this workforce plan, does it fill you with _ communities. this workforce plan, does it fill you with confidence? it| does it fill you with confidence? it does, for me. i took the apprenticeship route, i took three apprenticeships here in the trust, very positive. there were lots of other apprenticeships before and after me where people just speak positively. i think it's a really good root for them to be going down, to be pushing apprenticeships. what to be pushing apprenticeships. what do ou love to be pushing apprenticeships. what do you love about _ to be pushing apprenticeships. what do you love about working where you were? it’s do you love about working where you were? �* , , ., , , were? it'sjust a very helpful organisation, _ were? it'sjust a very helpful organisation, very _ were? it'sjust a very helpful. organisation, very supportive. were? it'sjust a very helpful - organisation, very supportive. they have that ethos, and we are all a big team. it's a big organisation, and there are a few different sites. but people are supportive of each other. ifeel the but people are supportive of each other. i feel the managers but people are supportive of each other. ifeel the managers and sisters are feeling the same pressures as we are, and everybody wants to join forces and make things better for everyone, which ultimately improve things for

patients. ultimately improve things for natients. ., .. ultimately improve things for natients. ., ,, , ., , ultimately improve things for natients. ., ~' , . patients. thank you very much. hello. patients. thank you very much. hello- what _ patients. thank you very much. hello. what do _ patients. thank you very much. hello. what do you _ patients. thank you very much. hello. what do you do? - patients. thank you very much. hello. what do you do? at - patients. thank you very much. hello. what do you do? at the | hello. what do you do? at the moment. _ hello. what do you do? at the moment. i _ hello. what do you do? at the moment, i am _ hello. what do you do? at the moment, i am taking - hello. what do you do? at the moment, i am taking care - hello. what do you do? at the moment, i am taking care of. hello. what do you do? at the i moment, i am taking care of my hello. what do you do? at the - moment, i am taking care of my kids, i'm moment, i am taking care of my kids, i'm not— moment, i am taking care of my kids, i'm not doing— moment, i am taking care of my kids, i'm not doing anything. i came to this country— i'm not doing anything. i came to this country in 2012, i used to work as a doctor— this country in 2012, i used to work as a doctor back home. for the last ten years. — as a doctor back home. for the last ten years, i've been coming to the country— ten years, i've been coming to the country and — ten years, i've been coming to the country and i worked to —— as a doctor — country and i worked to —— as a doctor after— country and i worked to —— as a doctor. after coming to this country. _ doctor. after coming to this country. i_ doctor. after coming to this country, i got to come here, and at first i_ country, i got to come here, and at first i could — country, i got to come here, and at first i could not work. when the kids started to go to school, in september, i got my registration as a doctor _ september, i got my registration as a doctor. so, from that time, i have been _ a doctor. so, from that time, i have been trying — a doctor. so, from that time, i have

been trying forjobs and also to work— been trying forjobs and also to work as— been trying forjobs and also to work as a — been trying forjobs and also to work as a doctor. and i will do other— work as a doctor. and i will do other work— work as a doctor. and i will do other work for experience. so i've been _ other work for experience. so i've been trying — other work for experience. so i've been trying for the job so many times — been trying for the job so many times. but they need recent experience. they are recruiting doctors. — experience. they are recruiting doctors, but they are not giving placements for people like us because — placements for people like us because we don't have recent experience. this september, i will have _ experience. this september, i will have might one year, and i didn't do anything _ have might one year, and i didn't do anything i'm— have might one year, and i didn't do anything. i'm totally frustrated. you've — anything. i'm totally frustrated. you've got all this expertise, all these qualifications, this will to work, this ambition to help people. and you can't do it. let's listen

very closely to this workforce plan, the prime minister is holding a press conference at downing street at midday, that is when it happens, the nhs long workforce plan. he is going to bejoined by amanda prichard, chief executive of nhs england, professor stephen powis, the national medical director of the nhs. we will bring you that live with chris warburton on 5 live. maybe he will say something for you? yes. ., ., ., ., ~' ., , yes. you want to work there and be on the ward? _ yes. you want to work there and be on the ward? l— yes. you want to work there and be on the ward? i have _ yes. you want to work there and be on the ward? i have two _ yes. you want to work there and be on the ward? i have two kit - yes. you want to work there and be on the ward? i have two kit is - yes. you want to work there and be on the ward? i have two kit is a - on the ward? i have two kit is a nrima on the ward? i have two kit is a primary school. _ on the ward? i have two kit is a primary school, so _ on the ward? i have two kit is a primary school, so i _ on the ward? i have two kit is a primary school, so i want - on the ward? i have two kit is a primary school, so i want to i on the ward? i have two kit is a primary school, so i want to do | on the ward? i have two kit is a i primary school, so i want to do the work— primary school, so i want to do the work in _ primary school, so i want to do the work in the — primary school, so i want to do the work in the hospital, like this. so i work in the hospital, like this. so i have _ work in the hospital, like this. so i have been— work in the hospital, like this. so i have been trying this, and even in the london — i have been trying this, and even in the london hospital today, when i went— the london hospital today, when i went to _ the london hospital today, when i went to see if i could see anything,

i went to see if i could see anything, i applied _ went to see if i could see anything, i applied for that. they need recent experience. i have been trying for a replacement near to my house. got a deal replacement near to my house. got a deal- tapping — replacement near to my house. got a deal- tapping into — replacement near to my house. got a deal. tapping into the _ replacement near to my house. (13de a deal. tapping into the talent. got to leave it. thank you very much indeed. keep trying and keep going. live from london. this is bbc news. president marcron leaves european council meeting early to hold a second emergency meeting amid violent riots for a third night in france. the actor kevin spacey arrives at court to hear the prosecution case against him — he's charged with sex offences which he denies. offences which he denies. new measures to improve nhs new measures to improve nhs staffing in england, staffing in england, with plans to train thousands with plans to train thousands more doctors and nurses. more doctors and nurses. a bbc investigation finds tiktok a bbc investigation finds tiktok is not removing some videos is not removing some videos that deny climate change — that deny climate change — despite a promise that it would. despite a promise that it would.