of strikes over the past few months by nurses and junior doctors. we will be live in downing street to hear the prime minister, and indeed the questions journalists ask him. well, earlier, my colleague nicky campbell spoke to dr nicola ashby, who is the head of professional learning and development and royal college of nursing. she said nhs staff need to be able to see the details of the workforce plan before they can get excited i think we really, really welcome that. we've got our first workforce plan coming out, the first one for 75 years. and that in itself is really, really important to note that. but there is a... hang on a minute. and we need to consider not only that these nurses that have been talking to you previously are training nursing, associates or nursing support workers and are registered nurses. it's notjust about five years�* time. it's about now. it's about how do we retain our staff now? how do we make them feel valued, and how do we ensure that we've got

a really good educator and leadership workforce, which is what you were talking about previously, to make sure that those nurses remain really competent, highly skilled to deliver the care? i've been in the nhs for 36 years and i've seen many things come through and i've been an educator for 30 years in the nhs. it's essential that we consider how we train and value our nurses moving forward. and it's important for the government to, what's the word, portray the fact to present it as being backed by clinical professionals and senior nhs management. is it? we've not seen the full plan yet, i have to say. we haven't seen the full plan yet. we've had some briefings around the full plan. so i'm really interested to see what actually is presented today by rishi and the other ministers that come forward. but it's good you're on first name terms with him already though. that's. . .that�*s. ..

yeah. that's right. but you're waiting, you're waiting to see the meat on the bones first. yeah, well, we are. and these are the areas that we've been talking about when we've been coming in around our pay negotiations, making sure that nurses are valued, that they're paid, they have working times and conditions which are really appropriate and also addressing those areas across social care. and i'm really pleased to hear that not only the callers, but the show is addressing that the social care and the nhs networks are one and that this is a way that patients pass through from from birth to death. everybody needs a nurse, everybody meets a nurse and the systems need investing both systems need investing in. but from the plan's perspective, we need to see what the detail is and then we'll be able to respond more around that. that is nicola ashby talking earlier to nicky campbell. joining me is my

health correspondent. you have seen what is in some of the plans. talk me through what the 15 year plan looks like. we me through what the 15 year plan looks like. ~ . , ,., looks like. we have seen some details, waiting _ looks like. we have seen some details, waiting for— looks like. we have seen some details, waiting for more - looks like. we have seen some l details, waiting for more details, expected at midday. it is a long—term, 15 year ambitious plan. the idea is to try and solve a huge problem within the nhs, a chronic problem, that the staff shortages. it is a big problem, about 11,000 doctors vacancies in the nhs. about 50% of nhs staff come from other countries to try and boost the nhs workforce, but these vacancies persist despite that. of course that has an impact on patient care, the long waiting lists. this plan, a 2.4 billion plan overfive long waiting lists. this plan, a 2.4 billion plan over five years, but the hope is it will continue over 15 years. it has three approaches, one is to train more doctors, more

nurses and physiotherapists and many more nhs staff. the other is to retain the current staff within the system, that is a problem. about 40,000 nurses left the nhs last year alone, and the other thing they want to do is reform, change how they are training staff. that is where apprenticeships come in. there are a few in there at the moment, and they want to bring in a lot more across podiatry, physiotherapy and doctors as well. these apprenticeships, they earn and learn at the same time. they won't be paying tuition fees, and the hope is it will attract more people to these positions. the government says they will find ways to make sure through these apprenticeship programmes, people will be of the same standard when they get to the end of their study as doctors and nurses already. let's look at the specifics, there are a

lot of numbers. they've set some targets for the next decade. for 2031, they want to double medical school places from 15,000 a year. and pension arrangements need to be addressed so from 11, and pension arrangements need to be addressed so from 15,000 they want a 50% increase in the gp training places forjunior doctors. training places for junior doctors. they training places forjunior doctors. they want 24,000 more nurses student places by 2021 —— 2031. they will be across all sort of nhs, working in maternity and physiotherapy and doctors as well. it'll be interesting to see how it works, and thatis interesting to see how it works, and that is one of the things people will be listening for, do you train up will be listening for, do you train up an apprenticeship doctor? when it comes to retention, they say there is still not a huge amount of detail on it, but they will make it easier for people to progress to senior roles, and they will be putting in

places ways to make it more flexible to work, but we are yet to see more detail. a lot of questions to come. you are going to stay with us and watch what the prime minister says. i want to talk to the conservative mp steve brine. thank you for joining us. you have said the nhs is simply not sustainable. the think this plan out does address that? unless it gets serious about prevention, because demand is outstripping supply by a significant amount, we can'tjust increase the budget faster than gdp. this plan is incredibly welcome. it is a very big moment in the nhs, a big moment for patients. it is easy to be cynical. we as a cross—party committee will go through it with a fine tooth

comb, but bluntly, it is a lot of what we called for. my predecessor and under me, we have been calling for this long to workforce plan. the first one the nhs that has had, which will make these productions over 20 years, and that in itself is a big moment. it is backed by serious passion. the challenge will be the retention as well as a recruitment pace, but doubling the number of medical school places is a huge statement of intent. i number of medical school places is a huge statement of intent.— huge statement of intent. i welcome it. some huge statement of intent. i welcome it- some peeple _ huge statement of intent. i welcome it. some people would _ huge statement of intent. i welcome it. some people would say _ huge statement of intent. i welcome it. some people would say that - huge statement of intent. i welcome it. some people would say that you | it. some people would say that you have been in powerfor 13 years, so why has this plan taken so long? if you see the start of health policy in this government, i suggest you haven't been keeping up. there's been a huge amount we have done, but things have changed. the population is older, the number of people, the

way technology and medicine has changed, the whole landscape has changed. there's been a pandemic and we have 7 million people on the waiting list. this is not the government's plan, not number ten�*s plan, it is the nhs�*s plan, coming from clinicians, the health foundation, nhs england. it is not in isolation, you mustn't see it that way. the new plan came out a few weeks ago, and it is critical in turning around primary care and associate roles, dealing with the rush. the plan that came out at the start of the year to deal with the acute squeeze we saw in the winter this year before next winter, that is critical. then as whole issue around patient choice. you have to see it all, and this is a really important moment.— see it all, and this is a really important moment. see it all, and this is a really imortant moment. ~ �* ., ., ., important moment. we've heard one of the big issues — important moment. we've heard one of the big issues is — important moment. we've heard one of

the big issues is retaining _ important moment. we've heard one of the big issues is retaining nurses, - the big issues is retaining nurses, and i would imagine a big part of retaining a nurse is pay, and that is not dealt with in this plan. we've had strikes by both nurses and junior doctors, and senior doctors coming up, all down to how much they get paid. flat coming up, all down to how much they aet aid. ., . ., ., coming up, all down to how much they iet aid, ., ., ., ., ., get paid. not all down to bad, that is an element _ get paid. not all down to bad, that is an element of— get paid. not all down to bad, that is an element of it. _ get paid. not all down to bad, that is an element of it. the _ get paid. not all down to bad, that is an element of it. the agenda, i is an element of it. the agenda, which includes nurses, that pay dispute has been set up this week, which you have a cupboard. there are other pay disputes going on with junior doctors, who want a 35% pay rise unreasonable, not going to happen. but the government will talk to them. you have the consultants disputing as well. yes, it is about pat’- disputing as well. yes, it is about pay. but with the junior doctors dispute in 2016, they wanted to see some trajectory of change, some hope, some cavalry on the hill. the fact this plan exists and comes from the nhs, showing the trajectory of

workforce plants, that will go a long way to people working in the nhs feel real hope. that is a key part the retention. it —— to say it is all about pay would be misleading.— is all about pay would be misleadina. ~ ., ., , ., is all about pay would be misleadina. ~ ., ., ., misleading. what would you say about eo - le misleading. what would you say about peeple trying — misleading. what would you say about peeple trying to _ misleading. what would you say about peeple trying to get _ misleading. what would you say about peeple trying to get a _ misleading. what would you say about people trying to get a gp _ people trying to get a gp appointment? this is about the future, what about now? that appointment? this is about the future, what about now? that is why i mention future, what about now? that is why i mention the _ future, what about now? that is why i mention the emergency _ future, what about now? that is why i mention the emergency pair- future, what about now? that is why i mention the emergency pair plan, | i mention the emergency pair plan, the patient choice agenda which we are looking into, making use of the independent sector. to cut through the waiting list. the primary care plan, which is important, and i have said it many times, if you expect going to a general practice is all about seeing a gp, we will never have enough appointment or another

gps. it is about the wider primary care, including pharmacies, which this prime minister stands behind. it is not dealing with the challenges today. that is dealing with the challenges today in finding those gp appointments. it is about the wider work going on, about a workforce plan put in place, huge issues that we will look at around the length of medical degree places. it is a big moment for the health service, and a good day for patients and a good day for staff. qm. service, and a good day for patients and a good day for staff.— and a good day for staff. 0k, steve brian, and a good day for staff. 0k, steve brian. thank— and a good day for staff. 0k, steve brian, thank you _ and a good day for staff. 0k, steve brian, thank you for _ and a good day for staff. 0k, steve brian, thank you forjoining - and a good day for staff. 0k, steve brian, thank you forjoining us, - brian, thank you forjoining us, calling it a big moment. professor alison leary, chair of health care and workforce modelling at london south bank university who also worked in the nhs for many years. do you think this is a big moment for the nhs? it do you think this is a big moment forthe nhs?— do you think this is a big moment for the nhs? it is a big moment in that there is _ for the nhs? it is a big moment in that there is a _ for the nhs? it is a big moment in that there is a long-term - for the nhs? it is a big moment in that there is a long-term plan - for the nhs? it is a big moment in| that there is a long-term plan now. that there is a long—term plan now. it would have been ideal if we had a

ten years ago, but the second—best time is now. this is quite a hopeful thing. i would time is now. this is quite a hopeful thing. iwould probably time is now. this is quite a hopeful thing. i would probably disagree it will help people now in the service. you look at workforce modelling over the years. this is a 15 year plan. do you think the nhs is able to bring in all of those new recruits, train them on the shop floor and make it work going forward? i think it is uuite make it work going forward? i think it is quite an _ make it work going forward? i think it is quite an optimistic _ make it work going forward? i think it is quite an optimistic plan, - make it work going forward? i think it is quite an optimistic plan, and i it is quite an optimistic plan, and it is quite an optimistic plan, and it is quite an optimistic plan, and it is good to see a long—term plan finally. the numbers are much better, and based on demand, for actual workers, better, and based on demand, for actualworkers, rather better, and based on demand, for actual workers, rather than just a consensus of numbers, which is perhaps being the case in the past. i think the lines on apprenticeships is perhaps a risky area. apprenticeships rely on good quality

workplace learning, and currently we do not have the workforce to provide that kind of workforce learning. find that kind of workforce learning. and retention, we'd been talking about it already. that is a massive issue, isn't it? it it already. that is a massive issue, isn't it? , ., it already. that is a massive issue, isn't it? , . , it already. that is a massive issue, isn't it? , ., , it already. that is a massive issue, isn'tit? , ., , ., isn't it? it is, and it is good to retention _ isn't it? it is, and it is good to retention features _ isn't it? it is, and it is good to retention features in - isn't it? it is, and it is good to retention features in this - isn't it? it is, and it is good to| retention features in this plan. isn't it? it is, and it is good to l retention features in this plan. i think it is something that has been very much a focus on supply in the past, more nurses and gps, without how it will happen. we do need to retain people. experts are essential any critical work. we need the save care experienced workers to stay. we have a leaky bucket at the moment. we've never had an issue of attracting nurses, different groups, but what we have is an issue of keeping them. attrition for nursing courses. even if you expand and train lots more nurses, attrition is

around 25—30%, so we lose them before they are qualified. there has to be better experience of workplace learning and much better way of addressing the financial burden of training to be a doctor or nurse. i'm interested, a friend of mine was a nurse in the nhs and then emigrated to australia because it was more attractive, working less hours and getting paid more. the nhs is facing this problem of people leaving the country.— is facing this problem of people leaving the country. leaving the country but _ leaving the country. leaving the country but retiring. _ leaving the country. leaving the country but retiring. the - leaving the country. leaving the | country but retiring. the biggest way we lose people is through retirement. this is one of the things we saw ten years ago, we knew we would see a large proportion of the workforce retire. i think there was very much a lack of planning around it. working conditions, particularly for people who we rely on to retire and return part—time,

and pension arrangements need to be addressed so we