brighter in the sky. have i got a chance of seeing it? it will not be as clear as that but not too bad if you dodge a view of the showers which have been around this evening, most of them are clearing now. it's a quiet night, pretty good for some of you to see the moon, however there is more cloud and rain waiting in the wings across southern areas. is the first half of the night which will be dry. plenty of showers across northern ireland and scotland. this is a weakening weather front sinking southwards. there is the area of rain going into south wales and southern england. temperatures i2 rain going into south wales and southern england. temperatures 12 or 13 degrees. the weather tomorrow has been giving us a headache. at the moment we have two microsystems, this weather front in the north moving southwards, it is a developing area of low pressure. at the moment it will start to bring thundery showers towards the south and south—west and then it starts to

p9p up and south—west and then it starts to pep up later in the day. it could affect the south east and wimbledon. further north showers will sink southwards and there will be sunny spells in between. a mixture of sunshine and showers for much of the country. at the moment, it doesn't look that great for wimbledon, we could have thundery downpours at times, a lack of sunshine and temperatures in the mid—teens. this developing area of low pressure could swipe the south—east as it moves towards denmark. the low countries, dunlop will bear the brunt of this deepening below. for us on wednesday we are in between systems so it is pay, won't pay or can pay, won't pay or we're not saying?

what's the point of independent pay review bodies if the government takes no notice? we'll be speaking to a former conservative health minister and the assistant general secretary of the tuc. also tonight, after an overnight israeli air strike on what it describes as a command and control centre in the densely packed jenin refugee camp on the west bank, street fighting and drone attacks today as thousands of israel defence forces cross the border. we'll hear from a spokeswoman for the israeli embassy in london, and a palestinian political analyst. and tomorrow, a court will hear the argument that london's ultra low emission zone should be extended to the capital's borders, against the wishes of five tory councils. we'll be joined by rosamund kissi—debrah, whose daughter ella was the first person to have air pollution listed as he cause of death, and the founder of the disability union, george baker, who opposes any extension.

good evening. the winter of discontent has given way to the summer of discontent, mainly in england. no glorious summer for either the strikers, or the millions affected by the stoppages. the list is long and the impact likely to be severe. teachers in england are out this wednesday and friday. junior doctors in england will strike from 7am onjuly 13th to 7am on july 18th. onjuly 20th and 21st, consultants will cut work to christmas day levels. train workers are putting on the brakes onjuly 22nd, 27th and 29th, and refuse workers in gloucestershire, on strike right now, are out until 3rd september. so how has it come to this? and could it be about to get even worse? the remuneration of many of these striking workers is influenced by pay review bodies — independent panels which gather evidence and provide the government with advice on the appropriate pay settlements for many public sector employees. but the signs are that they government is set to reject the latest advice from these pay review bodies — that these workers should be offered pay rises of 6%

in the coming year — on the grounds that this could stoke inflation further. so could that decision potentially spark an intensification of strike action? here's ben. remember these? the independent pay review bodies... _ remember these? the independent pay review bodies... we _ remember these? the independent pay review bodies... we have _ remember these? the independent pay review bodies... we have an _ review bodies... we have an independent _ review bodies... we have an independent pay _ review bodies. .. we have an independent pay review- review bodies... we have an l independent pay review body. review bodies... we have an - independent pay review body. we review bodies... we have an _ independent pay review body. we have an independent — independent pay review body. we have an independent pay — independent pay review body. we have an independent pay review _ independent pay review body. we have an independent pay review body. - well, those independent pay review bodies, which ministers, from the pm and the chancellor down relied upon last year to deflect demands from public sector unions for inflation—matching pay increases, are about to prove less useful. indeed, they might be about to serve up a majorfinancial headache for ministers. reports suggest these independent bodies are set to recommend that public sector workers should be given pay rises of 6% plus for the 2023/24 financial year. let's remember that these bodies are tasked with making pay recommendations on the basis of what is required for recruitment and retention as well as what is affordable

for the government given departmental spending limits set by ministers. so why is this a headache for ministers? well, first there's the price tag. a 6% rise across the public sector would likely cost an extra £7.5 billion relative to what has already been budgeted for. but perhaps even more salient for the treasury is the fear this would add to inflationary pressures. the treasury has been working on the assumption that 6% public sector pay awards would "mean that it takes wage growth longer to fall back to levels consistent with the inflation target, resulting in above—target inflation for a longer period of time." and of course uk inflation is proving stickier than hoped for, jeopardising the government's promise to halve it this year. remember, they want to get inflation to below here by the end of 2023 but, as the red line shows, it's veering off the hoped for decline path. so there have been rumblings that ministers are gearing up to reject the 6% recommendations of the public sector pay review bodies,

and perhaps impose an increase of 5% or less. i think everyone can see the economic context we are in with inflation higher than we would like it and it is important that in that context the government makes the right and responsible decisions on things like pay. it's not always easy, people may not like that but it's the right things for everybody, that we get a grip of inflation. how might the unions respond to this? well, some, such as the nasuwt teacher's union, have already warned that such a decision would lead to intensified strike action from them. and here's some economic context. in march, the office for budget responsibility projected 4.i% inflation for 2023/24. if that was accurate, it would mean public sector workers with a 5% rise still getting a real terms increase. but that official inflation projection could well be revised up in the autumn. and we know trade unions —

not least the junior doctors — are just as concerned about pay levels relative to before austerity started in 2010, as they are with rates of growth. it's true that public sector pay increases funded by state borrowing would add to inflationary pressure. so ministers feel they have a dilemma — reject the public sector pay review recommendations at the risk of intensifying strikes, or accept them at the risk of adding to the inflation problem. but public finance experts point out that there is a third option. if the government wanted to offer a higher pay rise but would worried about injecting demand into the economy it could offset it through higher taxes which would be an alternative, maybe not politically attractive but economically speaking, it would one way of offsetting placement impact and it's a choice at the government does not seem to want to make. so, be wary of the argument that there are no alternatives when it comes to public sector pay. it might well be true that,

at the moment, those alternatives are all unattractive, but economically speaking, ministers do have a choice. well, to discuss the politics of all this, nick is here. nick, where will the government land on whether to follow the advice of the pay review bodies? asi as i understand that there is a discussion going on in cabinet right now about what to do about these pay review bodies and there are some pretty serious cabinet minister saying to the prime minister and chancellor that you really need to accept the recommendations. you need to accept them because if there is a recommendation of six or 6.5% against for example 35% demand from junior doctors, what is not to like about 6.5%? the second point they are making is if you say no to the pay review bodies, you will bust a system which generally works in favour of the government because, yes, they are independent, but they work with an overall framework where they have to take account of recruitment and retention which might put wages up but they had to take account of why the practice of the message is, don't bust the

system. the message is, don't bust the s stem. the message is, don't bust the sstem. ,. , system. live discussions in cabinet is a olite system. live discussions in cabinet is a polite way _ system. live discussions in cabinet is a polite way of — system. live discussions in cabinet is a polite way of putting _ system. live discussions in cabinet is a polite way of putting it - system. live discussions in cabinet is a polite way of putting it but - is a polite way of putting it but how is it panning out for rishi sunak? , ., ., ~ how is it panning out for rishi sunak? , . ., ~ ., ., sunak? there is a darkening mood in the conservative _ sunak? there is a darkening mood in the conservative party _ sunak? there is a darkening mood in the conservative party among - the conservative party among ministers and backbenchers are put that they all thought inflation would be heading down more dramatically and it's not the point that they fear about what it means for their general election prospects. they have been difficult media performances by some ministers struggling to answer quick the question about what you're doing about it because the most important lever for controlling inflation is monetary policy, interest rates, the government does not do that, the bank of england does put the view in downing street is we have massively stabilised the economy since rishi sunak came to be prime minister so we are paying an important role. thank you. here to discuss is kate, bell, assistant general secretary of the tuc. lord bethell, who was a conservative health minister. why wouldn't the government go along with these recommendations of 6% for

prison officers, police officers, teachers, why wouldn't they? i think it's a very good _ teachers, why wouldn't they? i think it's a very good question. _ teachers, why wouldn't they? i think it's a very good question. there - teachers, why wouldn't they? i think it's a very good question. there has| it's a very good question. there has been speculation that they may turn these recommendations down but i have not seen any evidence that they are actually going to do that across the public sector, the pay was accepted by government have been around that level and it's only a few outstanding strides among railway workers and junior doctors were the claims are much higher than that, where we have seen industrial action. i agree that it is a big question why they would turn it down. , ,, ., ~ , , question why they would turn it down. , ,, .,~ , , ., , down. rishi sunak seems to be markin: down. rishi sunak seems to be marking territory _ down. rishi sunak seems to be marking territory about - down. rishi sunak seems to be marking territory about the - down. rishi sunak seems to be | marking territory about the idea that a 6% would be inflationary but we have had a lot of privacy for deals which have been higher than that and they have not been inflationary.— that and they have not been inflationa . �* ., ., ., inflationary. i'm not a monetary exert inflationary. i'm not a monetary expert but _ inflationary. i'm not a monetary expert but if— inflationary. i'm not a monetary expert but if the _ inflationary. i'm not a monetary expert but if the rate _ inflationary. i'm not a monetary expert but if the rate of - inflationary. i'm not a monetary| expert but if the rate of inflation is running at one level, you need to have pay rises at around that level it is just when they start busting

the level of the growth and money suppiy, the level of the growth and money supply, you get into a cycle that is difficult to escape. that must be the concern of government and of the bank of england. but the pay review bodies bear that in mind. it is the unions that are holding the government with a gun to their head, like thejunior doctors government with a gun to their head, like the junior doctors and the railway workers, who seem to be putting great pressure on the finance and that is what they are presumably trying to push against put it we have to different things here, there, the public sector workers and other workers in the public sector, like the junior doctors, and the railway workers, the drivers particularly this time round, who are just not going to come in at 6%. round, who are 'ust not going to come in at 6%._ come in at 6%. look, i think everybody — come in at 6%. look, i think everybody listening - come in at 6%. look, i think everybody listening to - come in at 6%. look, i think everybody listening to this l come in at 6%. look, i think - everybody listening to this debate has this_ everybody listening to this debate has this with a sense of deja vu because — has this with a sense of deja vu because if— has this with a sense of deja vu because if you remember back in the winter. _ because if you remember back in the winter. the _ because if you remember back in the winter, the government said, you showed _ winter, the government said, you showed it— winter, the government said, you showed it in your clip, we must stick— showed it in your clip, we must stick by—

showed it in your clip, we must stick by the _ showed it in your clip, we must stick by the independent pay review bodies _ stick by the independent pay review bodies. then health unions were saying _ bodies. then health unions were saying cost of living pressures mean we need _ saying cost of living pressures mean we need to— saying cost of living pressures mean we need to come back to the table and negotiate. government did come back to _ and negotiate. government did come back to the _ and negotiate. government did come back to the table are negotiated and was able _ back to the table are negotiated and was able to deliver a better deal for many— was able to deliver a better deal for many of those workers. workers i’i l ht for many of those workers. workers right now _ for many of those workers. workers right now in — for many of those workers. workers right now in the education sector, in presence — right now in the education sector, in presence of course, are asking for the _ in presence of course, are asking for the same thing, saying, show us what _ for the same thing, saying, show us what the _ for the same thing, saying, show us what the independent pay review body recommendations actually safe and let's get— recommendations actually safe and let's get round the table and negotiate a deal. but hearing these noises _ negotiate a deal. but hearing these noises off— negotiate a deal. but hearing these noises off of we are not even going to show— noises off of we are not even going to show you — noises off of we are not even going to show you what the independent recommendations which you were relying _ recommendations which you were reiying on— recommendations which you were relying on so heavily over the winter. — relying on so heavily over the winter, you're not even going to publish — winter, you're not even going to publish them? i think people are 'ust publish them? i think people are just frankly scratching their heads about _ just frankly scratching their heads about what's going on.— about what's going on. there's an element of _ about what's going on. there's an element of this _ about what's going on. there's an element of this which _ about what's going on. there's an element of this which shows - about what's going on. there's an | element of this which shows union leaders and negotiators are losing leverage because if the government continues to prevaricate or indeed does not come down with the independent pay review bodies, where does it leave the unions? what independent pay review bodies, where does it leave the unions?— does it leave the unions? what we saw over the _ does it leave the unions? what we

saw over the winter _ does it leave the unions? what we saw over the winter with _ does it leave the unions? what we saw over the winter with industrial j saw over the winter with industrial action— saw over the winter with industrial action delivering a better deal for pay i _ action delivering a better deal for pay i think— action delivering a better deal for pay i think eventually the government will realise that nobody wants _ government will realise that nobody wants teachers to be on strike, least _ wants teachers to be on strike, least of — wants teachers to be on strike, least of all _ wants teachers to be on strike, least of all those... fire wants teachers to be on strike, least of all those. . ._ least of all those. .. are you suggesting _ least of all those. .. are you suggesting there _ least of all those. .. are you suggesting there will - least of all those. .. are you suggesting there will be - least of all those. .. are you suggesting there will be an | suggesting there will be an escalation if they did not take the deal? we escalation if they did not take the deal? ~ ., , ., ., , deal? we have industrial action this week but unions _ deal? we have industrial action this week but unions right _ deal? we have industrial action this week but unions right across - deal? we have industrial action this week but unions right across the . week but unions right across the education — week but unions right across the education sector are saying to publish — education sector are saying to publish the findings of the bodies, come _ publish the findings of the bodies, come back— publish the findings of the bodies, come back to the table so we can get on with— come back to the table so we can get on with doing what we want which is teaching _ on with doing what we want which is teaching kids but right now those teachers — teaching kids but right now those teachers are facing staff shortages, recruitment challenges, and the pay is a massive — recruitment challenges, and the pay is a massive part of that. gn recruitment challenges, and the pay is a massive part of that.— is a massive part of that. on that ruestion is a massive part of that. on that question of _ is a massive part of that. on that question of recruitment - is a massive part of that. on that question of recruitment and - question of recruitment and retention, there is a crisis and i suppose that is a big part of the pay rates. we need to get these employees in place both in the teaching services, prison officers as well and also in the nhs. therefore they have to be competitive pay rates? i therefore they have to be competitive pay rates? i think that what frustrates _ competitive pay rates? i think that what frustrates me _ competitive pay rates? i think that what frustrates me about - competitive pay rates? i think that what frustrates me about the - competitive pay rates? i think that i what frustrates me about the current cycle we are in is that we are looking at three other things, not

looking at three other things, not looking at three other things, not looking at performance, pensions and we are not looking at the culture of the organisations. when it comes to retention, culture is so important and ifear that retention, culture is so important and i fear that there retention, culture is so important and ifear that there is retention, culture is so important and i fear that there is so retention, culture is so important and ifear that there is so much focus on incremental pay increases that there is not a rounded conversation about these other three very important drivers. i know that from the health sphere, those are really uppermost in health care workers' mines. it really uppermost in health care workers' mines.— really uppermost in health care workers' mines. if you have public workers' mines. if you have public workers who _ workers' mines. if you have public workers who are _ workers' mines. if you have public workers who are prepared - workers' mines. if you have public workers who are prepared to - workers' mines. if you have public. workers who are prepared to accept around 6%, and you have train drivers, people working on the railways and indeed junior doctors who will not settle for anything like twice or three times that, where does that leave you? is it reasonable? _ where does that leave you? is it reasonable? you _ where does that leave you? is it reasonable? you have different disputes— reasonable? you have different disputes in these sectors and it's really— disputes in these sectors and it's really important to take each dispute — really important to take each dispute on its own terms and to think— dispute on its own terms and to think about what those workers have .one think about what those workers have gone through over the last decade, what has _ gone through over the last decade, what has happened to their pay and

conditions — what has happened to their pay and conditions. to pick up the point about— conditions. to pick up the point about culture, it's very difficult to build — about culture, it's very difficult to build a — about culture, it's very difficult to build a positive culture in a school, — to build a positive culture in a school, for _ to build a positive culture in a school, for example, where your problems— school, for example, where your problems are teachers who are stressed — problems are teachers who are stressed by the huge workload because — stressed by the huge workload because their colleagues have had to leave to _ because their colleagues have had to leave to find a better paid job, and kids who _ leave to find a better paid job, and kids who are going to school hungry, again— kids who are going to school hungry, again because of the pay crisis we have _ again because of the pay crisis we have seen— again because of the pay crisis we have seen across the economy over the last— have seen across the economy over the last decade.— have seen across the economy over the last decade. thank you both very much indeed- _ tonight thejenin refugee camp in the occupied west bank is now a closed israeli military zone as israel engages in one of its biggest operations in the territory for two decades. today the israel defence forces mounted attacks on what they called "terrorist infrastructure" in thejenin area using ground forces and, in an unusual move on the west bank, also multiple drone strikes. palestinian officials say eight palestinians have been killed and more than 50 others wounded, and the palestinian prime minister mohammad shtayehby lauded the "heroicjenin camp, resistent to the occupation and its invasions. the us has expressed its support for what it calls israel's right to defend itself againt terrorist

groups, and tonight the palestinian president mahmoud abbas suspended contact and security copoeration with israel. so is further escalation likely? here's emir. the biggest operation in the west bank in nearly two decades. 0n the ground, a thousand israeli troops. in the air, drones launching strikes on targets in the jenin refugee camp. the streets ripped up by armoured bulldozers. at least eight palestinians have been killed and 50 injured in the raids that began at about 1am on monday morning, according to the palestinian health ministry. with the clashes continuing throughout the day on monday, that death toll is likely to rise adding to what has already been the deadliest year in the west bank since 2005. we are striking the terrorism hub with a great strength.

i want to emphasise that we don't have a fight with the palestinians. actually our fight is with the proxies of iran in our region which is mainly with the hamas and islamichhad. both are terrorist organisations which are financed by iran. bringing it to the discourse of iran is to further contort the reality, to further confuse people so that you start calling this a conflict in a complicated conflict. so what we are seeing is not israeli forces "defending" themselves from militants. what we are seeing is the entire state, government, settlers, army included, targeting refugees specifically and palestinians generally. israel has been engaged in a conflict with a new wave

of palestinian militants. they are loosely organised and under no direction from the palestinian leadership with whom they appear to have lost faith. they say their purpose is to defend their neighbourhoods from israeli raids in the west bank. butjust last month one group attempted to fire two rockets into israeli territory, the authority said. among the locations apparently hit in an israeli air strike on monday, an art space called the freedom theatre. this man is a graduate from the theatre, now living in london. they have targeted the outdoor of the freedom theatre and they have shut down the whole street, bulldozed the whole street. you are from jenin. have you been able to speak to your family today? no, no. since last night untiljust a couple of hours until i came here to the bbc to see you i was not able to reach my family. so this is an adaptation of the george orwell play animal farm that we did at the freedom theatre

and we looked at the failure inside the palestinian community, but also as well as not only hanging everything on the occupation. you adapted george orwell to talk about palestinian authorities and the israelis. and the israelis joining together working against the palestinian community and palestinian population. despair and anger then with both the israeli and palestinian leadership is the feeling among jenin's youth. with the new israeli government now moving to expand settlements in the west bank hopes for a positive route out of this moment are distant. the people that are confronting israeli forces through armed resistance are mostly young men under the age of 30, mostly between the age of 17 to 25 with zero training, hand guns mostly, fighting this army that is invading the refugee camp that they have been forced to live in. tonight as the israeli government

continues its operation, the palestinian authorities have announced they are suspending cooperation with them and the question is what will the response be of the palestinian youth who now pay no heed to either side? in a moment, i'll talk to 0rla goldschmidt, a spokeperson for the israeli embassy in london, but first, i'm joined by yara hawari from the independent palestinian think tank al—shabaka. good evening to both of you. the israelis claim there was a command and control centre right in the heart of a densely populated jenin refugee camp. why would militants risk the lives of innocent civilians by having it there? the risk the lives of innocent civilians by having it there?— by having it there? the official messaging _ by having it there? the official messaging and _ by having it there? the official messaging and rhetoric- by having it there? the official messaging and rhetoric that i by having it there? the official messaging and rhetoric that isj messaging and rhetoric that is coming out from the israeli regime is about dehumanising thejenin

refugee camp as this terrorist tab. but thejenin refugee camp isjust that, a refugee camp in occupied palestinian territory full of palestinian territory full of palestinian refugees who have been made refugees by the israeli regime. they have been facing this horrific, massive military invasion of their camp and the surrounding areas with aerial bombardment, ground invasion, massive destruction to infrastructure. this rhetoric that jenin camp is a terrorist hub is a dehumanisation tactic. it is jenin camp is a terrorist hub is a dehumanisation tactic.— dehumanisation tactic. it is not about the whole _ dehumanisation tactic. it is not about the whole camp, - dehumanisation tactic. it is not about the whole camp, it - dehumanisation tactic. it is not about the whole camp, it is - dehumanisation tactic. it is not i about the whole camp, it is about there is a command and control centre however small within the densely populated area and by having it there and having it as a target of the israelis civilians are always going to be at risk. we know there is activity within that camp. you ut our is activity within that camp. you put your finger _ is activity within that camp. you put your finger on _ is activity within that camp. you put your finger on it, _ is activity within that camp. ym. put your finger on it, this is a put yourfinger on it, this is a densely populated area and the reality of this operation is about mowing the grass, the israeli

military doctrine, which basically means to cause so much death and destruction that palestinians can't do anything but try and put their lives back together. the military does this time and time again, not just injenin but also in gaza and it is inhumane and criminal. we have to see... we it is inhumane and criminal. we have to see... ~ . it is inhumane and criminal. we have tosee...~ ., ., ., to see... we have also heard in the film is that — to see... we have also heard in the film is that a _ to see... we have also heard in the film is that a lot _ to see... we have also heard in the film is that a lot of _ to see... we have also heard in the film is that a lot of palestinians - film is that a lot of palestinians injenin and in other areas of the west bank are in despair and angry not about israeli leadership, that is one thing, but also about the failure of palestinian leadership. do you recognise that? absolutely, there is anger _ do you recognise that? absolutely, there is anger at _ do you recognise that? absolutely, there is anger at the _ do you recognise that? absolutely, there is anger at the palestinian . there is anger at the palestinian authority which is being seen as a subcontractor of the israeli regime, as an extension of the israeli regime, and it is a well—established fact that the israeli regime is an occupying regime and in the eyes of the israelis anyone who resists that

is a so—called terrorist. it is really important to see that context. what we are seeing happen injenin is this attempt to crush palestinian resistance to occupation, to make an example of jenin to other palestinians and it is a tactic, collective punishment. it seems to me that it is only with palestinians that resistance against military occupation is subjected to this kind of scrutiny at this kind of dehumanisation. in this kind of scrutiny at this kind of dehumanisation.— of dehumanisation. in the settlements _ of dehumanisation. in the settlements in _ of dehumanisation. in the settlements in the - of dehumanisation. in the settlements in the west l of dehumanisation. in the - settlements in the west bank there was an attack on four people died, one of them a teenager. is it likely we are going to see more attacks on settlements by palestinians either organised or not organised? what we are hearing there is there is a lot of freelancing going on.- are hearing there is there is a lot of freelancing going on. these are illeual of freelancing going on. these are illegal israeli _ of freelancing going on. these are illegal israeli settlements - of freelancing going on. these are illegal israeli settlements in - of freelancing going on. these are illegal israeli settlements in the i illegal israeli settlements in the west bank and that context is incredibly important. the context of settlement expansion is incredibly important because this is what the israeli regime is doing, this is why

they are attacking the west bank because they want to expand into that area and create more settlements and allow more israeli settlers to illegally live on occupied palestinian land. the fact of the matter is, that so long as there is a military occupation, so long as there is israeli theft of palestinian land and israeli regime killing palestinians, there will always be palestinian resistance. what you expect palestinians to do in such a context?— in such a context? thank you for 'oinin: in such a context? thank you for joining us- _ in such a context? thank you for joining us- let — in such a context? thank you for joining us. let me _ in such a context? thank you for joining us. let me turn - in such a context? thank you for joining us. let me turn to - in such a context? thank you for joining us. let me turn to orla i joining us. let me turn to 0rla goldshmidt. let's talk about proportionate. what was proportionate. what was proportionate about air strikes, drone attacks, thousands of troops, gun battles, again risking civilian casualties? casualties among children injenin? casualties? casualties among children in jenin?_ children in jenin? first of all, thank you — children in jenin? first of all, thank you for _ children in jenin? first of all, thank you for having - children in jenin? first of all, thank you for having me. - children in jenin? first of all, thank you for having me. i i children in jenin? first of all, - thank you for having me. i would like to explain thatjenin has become a real terrorist hub for terrorists and the terrorists are embedded within the civilians. they

are hiding behind civilians, they are hiding behind civilians, they are hiding behind civilians, they are hiding their infrastructure behind, next to schools and mosques and their hospitals. the counter terrorist activity that was launched today by the ivf was really precise and they tried to do everything they can in order to minimise casualties of civilians. can in order to minimise casualties of civilians-— of civilians. can i be clear? precise _ of civilians. can i be clear? precise with _ of civilians. can i be clear? precise with bulldozers - of civilians. can i be clear? precise with bulldozers on | of civilians. can i be clear? i precise with bulldozers on the streets, precise with more than a thousand israeli troops, precise with drone strikes, precise with gun battles on the streets. how with gun battles on the streets. how with gun battles on the streets. how with gun battles on the streets can you ensure that children and vulnerable teenagers are not involved? 50. ensure that children and vulnerable teenagers are not involved? so, the israeli defence _ teenagers are not involved? so, the israeli defence forces _ teenagers are not involved? so, the israeli defence forces are _ teenagers are not involved? so, the israeli defence forces are always - israeli defence forces are always doing everything they can in order to minimise casualties. they always do that and they try to do that in order to save palestinians and israelis from those getting killed.

but when they go intojenin, which is a real terror have, just last year 50 terrorists have gone out of jenin in order to carry out terror attacks against israeli civilians. 25 israelis have been killed in the last year. 25 israelis have been killed in the last ear. ., , ., ., last year. you say it is a terror hub, but _ last year. you say it is a terror hub. but you _ last year. you say it is a terror hub, but you do _ last year. you say it is a terror hub, but you do accept - last year. you say it is a terror hub, but you do accept there i last year. you say it is a terror. hub, but you do accept there are thousands of citizens there who are not terrorists, they are living there as refugees and also watching as the binyamin netanyahu government elected on a platform of extending settlements and i think, what can we do about that? what is in this area for the palestinians? when you have more settlements being built, what is in it for the palestinians? i agree with you jenin is actually a hub where terrorists are embedded within civilians who have done nothing and they want to live a peaceful life. unfortunately they

cannot do that becausejenin is actually receiving money from iran and they are receiving weapons and terrorists are going back tojenin and hiding there. this is a real problem for the palestinians. ii and hiding there. this is a real problem for the palestinians. if you sendin: problem for the palestinians. if you sending thousands _ problem for the palestinians. if you sending thousands of _ problem for the palestinians. if you sending thousands of troops, - problem for the palestinians. if you sending thousands of troops, how can they live a peaceful life? you say they live a peaceful life? you say they want to live a peaceful life and that is absolutely right, but if you sending thousands of troops and two drone strikes and have gone battles on the streets and put bulldozers on the streets which give a problem to ambulances, how can they live a peaceful life? the a problem to ambulances, how can they live a peaceful life?— they live a peaceful life? the only thin that they live a peaceful life? the only thing that the _ they live a peaceful life? the only thing that the israeli _ they live a peaceful life? the only thing that the israeli defence - thing that the israeli defence forces want to achieve is to stop terrorists from acting and from creating more terror within israel. you just heard a young palestinian woman saying that they believe that the settlements are illegal. do you believe the settlements are illegal? i will tell you something about the settlements. settlements are not the

obstacle for peace. the obstacle for peaceis obstacle for peace. the obstacle for peace is that the palestinians are not ready to talk with israel. the day that israel will see that there is a real serious partner in front of us we will talk with them. settlements have never been an obstacle for peace. you settlements have never been an obstacle for peace.— settlements have never been an obstacle for peace. you say that but i would imagine _ obstacle for peace. you say that but i would imagine israelis— obstacle for peace. you say that but i would imagine israelis will- obstacle for peace. you say that but i would imagine israelis will say - i would imagine israelis will say that, but palestinians would say they are. that, but palestinians would say the are. , ., that, but palestinians would say the are. i. they are. let me give you some examples- _ they are. let me give you some examples- we _ they are. let me give you some examples. we have _ they are. let me give you some examples. we have given - they are. let me give you some examples. we have given sinai| they are. let me give you some i examples. we have given sinai in they are. let me give you some - examples. we have given sinai in the late 70s in order to help to achieve peace with the egyptians. and we have recently 20 years ago we have given the gaza strip to the palestinians in order to live with them. . ~ palestinians in order to live with them. ., ,, i. palestinians in order to live with them. ., ~' ,, , palestinians in order to live with them. ., ,, , . them. thank you very much indeed, we have run right — them. thank you very much indeed, we have run right out _ them. thank you very much indeed, we have run right out of _ them. thank you very much indeed, we have run right out of time. _ tomorrow the high court in london will hear the arguments for and against the london mayor's plans to expand the ultra low emission zone — ulez — across london, to encompass the whole of the capital. the scheme is due to be launched at the end of next month, but it was challenged by five conservative—led councils — bexley, bromley, harrow,

hillingdon and surrey — and local authorities and campaigners all over england are awaiting the outcome of the legal challenge, which could impact arguments about how best to improve air quality in their area. here's kate. ready to catch cars crossing into the expanded ultralow emission zone or ulez. from next month these controversial cameras will be used to charge vehicles from outer london which don't meet standards. the aim, cleaner air, which don't meet standards. the aim, cleanerair, healthier which don't meet standards. the aim, cleaner air, healthier people. cleanerair, healthier people. busy traffic produces a unique blend of gases and tiny particles. iltiui’rite traffic produces a unique blend of gases and tiny particles.- gases and tiny particles. write on dioxide, sulphur _ gases and tiny particles. write on dioxide, sulphur dioxide, - gases and tiny particles. write on dioxide, sulphur dioxide, those i dioxide, sulphur dioxide, those gases and suit and tiny particles that are a mixture of oil and road dust and tyre wear and brake wear. really all that and is associated with health impacts from cradle to grave. with health impacts from cradle to rave. ,, ., , , , grave. smaller sized babies, premature — grave. smaller sized babies, premature deliveries, - grave. smaller sized babies, premature deliveries, in - grave. smaller sized babies, l premature deliveries, in early grave. smaller sized babies, - premature deliveries, in early life preschool children, episodes of

wheezy illness, new cases of asthma, and when you get into adult hood cardiovascular disease, respiratory disease, cancers and into older life earlier onset of dementia.— earlier onset of dementia. tackling this has meant _ earlier onset of dementia. tackling this has meant clean _ earlier onset of dementia. tackling this has meant clean air _ earlier onset of dementia. tackling this has meant clean air zone - earlier onset of dementia. tackling this has meant clean air zone is - this has meant clean air zone is rolled out across the uk, but ulez, introduced across in a london in 2019, was the first. its effects are monitored closely by scientists at stations like this. we monitored closely by scientists at stations like this.— stations like this. we have been measuring _ stations like this. we have been measuring air— stations like this. we have been measuring air pollution - stations like this. we have been measuring air pollution in - stations like this. we have been l measuring air pollution in london for over 30 years now, so you can say these lines are my life is not worth. , ., ., worth. these are level from the busiest in _ worth. these are level from the busiest in a _ worth. these are level from the busiest in a rose _ worth. these are level from the busiest in a rose to _ worth. these are level from the busiest in a rose to the - worth. these are level from the j busiest in a rose to the quietest outer suburbs, looking at this particular pollutant because it has certain legal limits. the particular pollutant because it has certain legal limits.— certain legal limits. the current leral certain legal limits. the current legal limit _ certain legal limits. the current legal limit for _ certain legal limits. the current legal limit for nitrogen - certain legal limits. the current legal limit for nitrogen dioxide l certain legal limits. the currentl legal limit for nitrogen dioxide is around here. the world health organization has just reviewed the 0rganization has just reviewed the evidence and it has set a limit which should be around here on this line. you can see that certainly at the start of the century nowhere in

london was anywhere near these legal limits. in fact we have places that were at this point here, around three times the legal limit. diesel vehicles have _ three times the legal limit. diesel vehicles have driven _ three times the legal limit. diesel vehicles have driven up _ three times the legal limit. diesel vehicles have driven up pollution l vehicles have driven up pollution and things did not significantly improve until 2017. this and things did not significantly improve until 2017.— and things did not significantly improve until 2017. this is when london began — improve until 2017. this is when london began getting _ improve until 2017. this is when london began getting ready - improve until 2017. this is when london began getting ready for| improve until 2017. this is when i london began getting ready for the ulez, so upgrading the fleece in central london most especially, so the delivery fleets, the buses, taxis and all the vehicles there. you can see the really dramatic changes in air pollution, it drops off a cliff to take us to the point where we are now where the roads in central london actually have similar concentrations to roads in outer london. , , , , ., , , london. despite improvements, sign to say there — london. despite improvements, sign to say there would _ london. despite improvements, sign to say there would still _ london. despite improvements, sign to say there would still be _ to say there would still be benefiting getting air pollution below guideline limits.- benefiting getting air pollution below guideline limits. there is ve low below guideline limits. there is very low levels, _ below guideline limits. there is very low levels, apparently - below guideline limits. there is very low levels, apparently low| very low levels, apparently low levels, of air pollution, they have important adverse effects, excess mortality, about 7%. for

cardiovascular disease, respiratory disease and cancer deaths. so don't be fooled. when we say pollution levels are quite low in, for example, outer london, they are not low enough, these levels are still associated with major adverse health effects. associated with ma'or adverse health effects. , ., , , ., associated with ma'or adverse health effects. , , ., , effects. ulez protests and petitions and even vandalism _ effects. ulez protests and petitions and even vandalism show— effects. ulez protests and petitions and even vandalism show us - effects. ulez protests and petitions and even vandalism show us how i effects. ulez protests and petitions. and even vandalism show us how you get drivers out of polluting vehicles or out of driving at all is farfrom simple. much anger has come from the fact that when there is a focus on charges, there are also consequences for some. in hillingdon, one of the area that is disputing the charge, they are shutting up shop. we is disputing the charge, they are shutting op shop-— is disputing the charge, they are shuttin: u- sho. ~ . ., , shutting up shop. we decided to shut down the shop _ shutting up shop. we decided to shut down the shop basically _ shutting up shop. we decided to shut down the shop basically due to - shutting up shop. we decided to shut down the shop basically due to ulez l down the shop basically due to ulez as the mayor is trying to impose this charge. me and my wife, family run, we both have vehicles that are not ulez compliant and i worked out

it will cost us £7,000 a year to just open the shop. ile it will cost us £7,000 a year to just open the shop. he describes the extra charge — just open the shop. he describes the extra charge as _ just open the shop. he describes the extra charge as the _ just open the shop. he describes the extra charge as the straw— just open the shop. he describes the extra charge as the straw that - just open the shop. he describes the extra charge as the straw that broke| extra charge as the straw that broke the camels back. he does not build a business can operate without the vehicles, one of which is used to deliver fireplaces. vehicles, one of which is used to deliverfireplaces. i vehicles, one of which is used to deliver fireplaces.— deliver fireplaces. i don't know whether mayor _ deliver fireplaces. i don't know whether mayor khan _ deliver fireplaces. i don't know whether mayor khan thinks - deliver fireplaces. i don't know| whether mayor khan thinks the deliver fireplaces. i don't know - whether mayor khan thinks the money is coming from because small businesses like us haven't got it, it's tough out there, really tough. the thing is, money is notjust an issue for pollution policy, it is baked into who faces health problems in the first place. we baked into who faces health problems in the first place.— in the first place. we found that areas that _ in the first place. we found that areas that have _ in the first place. we found that areas that have the _ in the first place. we found that areas that have the highest - areas that have the highest proportion of households in poverty are experiencing the highest levels of air pollution but those areas with the least households in poverty are generating the highest household emissions on average for the vehicles they drive. so it may hit people's pockets but ultimately it

is improving people's health and i think we need to really consider which is most important here, health or wealth. , , ., , ., ., or wealth. this is a question of balance, or wealth. this is a question of balance. one _ or wealth. this is a question of balance, one with _ or wealth. this is a question of balance, one with no _ or wealth. this is a question of balance, one with no easy - or wealth. this is a question of- balance, one with no easy answers. the scrappage scheme designed to offer financial support for older vehicles is due to be examined as part of tomorrow's judicial review. i'm joined now by rosamund adoo—kissi—debrah. rosamund's daughter ella kissi—debrah sadly died in 2013. she was the first person to have air pollution listed as a cause of death at an inquest in the uk. ever since, rosamund has been campaigning to improve air quality. thank you forjoining us tonight. in the ten years since ella died, you live in lewisham, has there been a noticeable improvement in air quality there?— noticeable improvement in air auali there? quality there? there actually hasn't because of the _ quality there? there actually hasn't because of the south _ quality there? there actually hasn't because of the south circular, - because of the south circular, the actual road that contributed to her death, is not part of the ulez. so

for us and the hundreds of thousands who live on this busy road, it is incredibly important and what we have also learnt in ten years is how much air pollution actually impacts on the public�*s health, everything from asthma, cardiovascular and dimension output and it was asthma your daughter had? 0ne dimension output and it was asthma your daughter had? one of the worst cases of asthma recorded in the. not just her, a quarter of a million children in london have asthma and every year between eight and 12 children still die. 50 every year between eight and 12 children still die.— every year between eight and 12 children still die. so when you were workin: in children still die. so when you were working in lewisham _ children still die. so when you were working in lewisham and _ children still die. so when you were - working in lewisham and campaigning, what sort of issues and respiratory issues do people have?— what sort of issues and respiratory issues do people have? copd, from very young — issues do people have? copd, from very young children, _ issues do people have? copd, from very young children, bronchitis, - very young children, bronchitis, asthma. wheezing. it's a very difficult issue. i go back to the

inquest and it was said at the inquest and it was said at the inquest by all the experts that the mayor of london needs to expand ulez because of the detrimental impact of air pollution on health and that was two and a half years ago. i guess at that stage there was not cost of living but i was listening very carefully to the report and it is incredibly difficult. i always think about the children who suffer. asthma is the most common childhood illness in this country. 1.1 million children have asthma and whenever there is a spike in air pollution, more children go to hospital. these are terrible statistics _ more children go to hospital. these are terrible statistics about - are terrible statistics about asthmatic children but the balance between improving the atmosphere, which everybody wants, and people being able to go about their business when scrappage is simply not enough for people, that is part of the problem, isn't it? it not enough for people, that is part of the problem, isn't it?— of the problem, isn't it? it is. what i would _ of the problem, isn't it? it is. what i would say _ of the problem, isn't it? it is. what i would say about - of the problem, isn't it? it is. what i would say about that l of the problem, isn't it? it is. |

what i would say about that is the government needs to contribute to the scrappage scheme. i am yet to meet anyone who says i don't want clean air. i think there has been so much research. we now know it is impacting every organ in the body. people want clean air, they want to change, but they do not have the finance so i call upon the government to contribute to this scrappage scheme. they were in court at ella's inquest and they knew what happened. this should notjust be down to the mayor of london. councils need to do their bit and monitor the air pollution and as the coroner said, and make people aware of what they are breathing. a lot of people still do not know what they are breathing. people still do not know what they are breathing-— people still do not know what they are breathing. what you say to the arc ument are breathing. what you say to the argument that _ are breathing. what you say to the argument that of _ are breathing. what you say to the argument that of course _ are breathing. what you say to the argument that of course the - are breathing. what you say to the | argument that of course the centre of london is much better? and the pollution in the centre of london having come down it is more in line with what it is in the outer boroughs. i with what it is in the outer boroughs-— with what it is in the outer boroughs. with what it is in the outer borou~hs. ., ., , boroughs. i would say that people like myself. _ boroughs. i would say that people like myself, who _ boroughs. i would say that people like myself, who lived _ boroughs. i would say that people like myself, who lived right - boroughs. i would say that people

like myself, who lived right next | boroughs. i would say that people | like myself, who lived right next to the south circular, that is not changed. all the hundreds of thousands of people who live near there are still breathing dirty air and let's be quite frank, the moment you put in who limits, everywhere in london becomes illegal and you heard gary fuller talking about it. the only reason why there good are and bad part is due to the measurement point of the moment you put in the who guidelines, everything changes. thank you very much forjoining us. george baker is a disability rights campaigner who has concerns about the expansion of the ulez. thank you forjoining us. i want to understand, are you actually against ulez in principle? ida. understand, are you actually against ulez in principle?— ulez in principle? no. i'm not aaainst. ulez in principle? no. i'm not against- the _ ulez in principle? no. i'm not against. the important - ulez in principle? no. i'm not against. the important thing | ulez in principle? no. i'm not- against. the important thing with any kind of scheme designed to change behaviour through economic choices is there has to be really well targeted. this ultra low

emission zone will have unintended side—effects for a huge number of people, particularly disabled people, particularly disabled people, people in poverty. and what are those unintended side-effects? | are those unintended side—effects? the extra charge they will have to pay every day, it will change how often they will leave the house, whether or not they can be economically productive. somebody like myself, it is £17.50 a day, to get in and out of london in the ultra low emission zone. if i pay that every day to go to work, i can only work part—time because of disability or illness and have to go to a lot of hospital appointments and that sort of thing. that kind of charge will have a real, meaningful my house. which means it entrenches what will my house. which means it entrenches what y will have _ my house. which means it entrenches and consistent and i could even lose what y will have . real, _ my house. which means it entrenches what y will have . real, meaningful i charge will have a real, meaningful and consistent and i could even lose my house. my house.

and consistent and i could even lose m house. ~ . and consistent and i could even lose m house. . ., , . , and consistent and i could even lose m house. ~ . and consistent and i could even lose m house. . ., , . , my house. which means it entrenches what ou my house. which means it entrenches what ou my house. which means it entrenches what you are — my house. which means it entrenches what you are saying, _ my house. which means it entrenches what you are saying, the _ my house. which means it entrenches what you are saying, the disparity - what you are saying, the disparity between the have and have—nots it does. what do you say to people who say there would be an alternative form of transport you could use or get access to? i form of transport you could use or get access to?—