this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. brazil is six months into the post—bolsonaro era. workers' party leader luiz inacio lula da silva returned to power, promising to end what he called years of devastation of the environment, the economy and social justice. nothing symbolises this new direction better than the appointment of my guest today, anielle franco, as minister of racial equality. now, her sister was a local politician and anti—racism

activist murdered five years ago. so, has that personal tragedy given her unstoppable political motivation? anielle franco in brasilia, welcome to hardtalk. it's my pleasure to be here, and thanks for the invitation. well, it is great to have you on the show. let me ask you — when president lula offered you this very high—profile position in his government

of minister of racial equality, did you have to think hard before accepting it? well, yes, because it's a position where we have to attend 58% of the population and we have a majority of black population in brazil. but even though we have that number, we have a lot of emergencies and problems and issues that we need to take care very carefully. even though i voted for lula since my first election, i was very happy but, at the same time, i had a conversation with my parents first — just because, you know, my mum and my daddy had just lost another daughter in politics five years ago and, of course, it would be important to talk to them — but at the same time, it was a great opportunity. i was very honoured to be invited and i knew that we had a lot of work to do and as i am compromised to everything that

i do, i accepted. yeah. the clear majority of brazilians who are living in poverty are black. when we look at the number of homicides every year, 80% of victims are black. there is clearly an issue of entrenched racial inequality in your country. do you think the fact that you are from mare, one of the sprawling favela slums in rio, do you think that gives you a particular perspective on how racial inequality works? definitely, definitely. i always say that to know what we have to do here, it's important to know where we came from. i was raised and born in mare and since we were, like, seven, six years old, i remember most of the times when we have to go to school and later on when we have to go

to university, go to work, we used to walk and see a lot of dead bodies in mare for the whole violence that those people faced. but besides that, access to health, to education, to social issues was always very hard for the people from the favelas, from the slums and being here now takes me exactly to the point where i came from, so i know where the struggle is harder for those people, you know? and that's why we are creating a lot of public policies here and a lot of programmes to think about that. for example, just like what you said in your question, genocide for black people here in brazil is huge. only last year... crosstalk. hang on — minister, i've got to stop you there. you're sitting there in your ministerial office and you are telling me, unless i heard you wrong, that you believe there

is currently a genocide being prosecuted against black brazilians? is that what. . . ? yes, that's exactly what i said. yes, we have a lot of genocides that goes on in our country. last year, for example, only in my city where i came from, we have almost 100 children that got killed, you know, sometimes from operation, sometimes when they are going to school, leaving school and, unfortunately, that is very common in brazil. that is very common in salvador, in sao paulo, in brasilia, in many places. and i was saying that... crosstalk. so, ijust want to be clear — if you're going to use that word, genocide, which is a hugely sort of loaded word, given, you know, the history of that word, are you... yes. ..are you telling me that you think instruments of the state, you know, including law enforcement,

are complicit in a genocide against black brazilians? yes. when i say the word �*genocide,’ i'm very sure of what i'm saying because it's something that is not from today or it's happened today or is new. it's very old in brazil. we have many examples of people who were killed during our history of our country because black people in brazil, unfortunately, are not seen as human beings for the majority of the society, for those people who sometimes are in power. and for the other side now, fortunately, now we have a president and a minister ofjustice, for example, and me and many others that are thinking about how we can face that problem and do something to protect our people. what i was just trying... crosstalk. so, again — just to be clear — do you see your sister, marielle, as one of the victims of genocide?

exactly. perfectly. that's the perfect point that you just brought. marielle was a victim but inside politicians. marielle was a councilwoman who got killed with five shots on her head, 13 on her body, and she was also a victim of the genocide in this country. crosstalk. but i'm just wondering, minister, how you can, in a way, how you can sit comfortably in a ministerial office in brasilia when you're saying that you believe the state is still complicit in an unfolding genocide against black brazilians. i mean, for example — just to take one example — marielle was killed five years ago. there are two former police officers who have been charged in association with her murder. they deny involvement. they've yet to come to trial. and it sounds to me as though you don't trust the system to deliverjustice so, i mean,

again, i'mjust wondering how, in some ways, you could sit in government? right. if you let me conclude my thoughts, i'm going to be able to explain to you. what i'm trying to say about genocide is that, unfortunately, in brazil, we have many places, mainly the favelas, that the majority of the operations that happen there kill innocent people. that's what i say about genocide. and then on the other side, this is very common on state departments, this is very common in specific cities in brazil. and besides that, we also have people who die, like children, like young people, like old people, for example. if you go by a police operation sometimes and you don't stop your car or don't roll down your window, most of the times, it can happen — something violent to you, and we have many cases in brazil — i'm not saying this from top of my head. like, we have interviews,

we have facts, we have numbers. and that's why when president lula invites me to be here, there is one thing that i take to the minister ofjustice to think about that black youth alive because we need to create a programme and a public policy to think about that. what i'm trying to say is if we do that together with governors, you know, with mayors, with councilpeople, we can do and we can help the police enter the favelas and the slums with more responsibility. right. that's what we need. we cannot kill people. we cannot kill black people just, like, anywhere, any place in brazil and they'll be responsible for that. and when it comes to my sister — my sister was killed and we're still waiting for the trial to come, but what we have so far is that we have two former police officers that was not — they were not working for the police any more but they were former officers and they were the people

who executed marielle because someone asked them to do so. and she was a politician. right, well... crosstalk. and every black people... we need to be a little bit careful, as the trial hasn't yet happened. we should say that they remain suspects who are facing trial, rather than... exactly, they remain suspects. butjust to conclude — i think that every black person is suspect in brazil. every black person that does not know what to do in case of violence can die. i mean, i can, the people that work with me can. the thing is that we need to talk to the police, we need to talk to the governors, we need to think about programmes, we need to think about public policies and to stop the genocide of the black people that is constantly happening here, in many parts of the country. in brief, how do you prioritise in your work? you're minister of racial equality. we've discussed at some length now your fears about the way violence is impacting black communities in brazil in a very unfair and unequal way

but there are also issues, as i indicated, with endemic poverty, the lack of black faces in brazil's boardrooms as well, lack of economic representation in executive positions. you know, wherever you look in brazil, there are signs of entrenched racial inequality. so, how are you, six months into lula's government, going to change things? what are your priorities? oh, yes. we face it and number it, like many priorities in the beginning of the year. so, first of all, we need to combat starvation. we have a lot of black people in brazil who are starving right now. we have 33 million people around the whole country who doesn't have a meal to eat in the beginning, in the middle or the end of the day, and 70% of those population are black. we're going to start by there. secondly, but not less important, the genocide of the black people. so, that's why we think

about black youth alive. that's why we want to speak with governors and mayors and we're talking about the federal police and everybody that we can, together with the minister ofjustice of brazil and other ministers as well. third, we need to combat education. black people doesn't have access to education. president lula was a very important person when it comes to public policy that we create here, that now we have 40% of the population who enter universities being black and graduating but 20 years ago, we had only 3% of those population who could do that, so... fourth, we also have to talk about the territory, our land. since brazil was discovered, people have been stealing our land and think that they can do whatever and we have indigenous people, we have quilombola people that need to be ta ken care of. and now, on the last

march 21st, we landed — we put, like — we give the documents to the lands for quilombolas in brazil, and that also was something historical made now in the beginning of president lula's mandatory time. and the fifth one is health... crosstalk. let me ask you this — you've given me a long list of priorities. i guess you're going to have to decide which comes first. yes, i gave you five because we have 57% of the population. i cannot give you only one or two. but listen, ijust want to ask you simply — do you think quotas and affirmative action work? �*cos for the last decade and more, there has been affirmative action, as you said, to get more black people into universities, for example. and now, we see that lula is committed to having 30% of federal government posts filled by black and mixed race brazilians. but there's an argument to say quotas simply reinforce the idea that racial identification matters and maybe a more progressive way of dealing with this is trying to move into a post—racial brazil.

yeah, usually who says that public policy and quotas are reinforce this different are usually white people who does that. like, black people realise and know the importance of having affirmative actions here. and what you're talking about — the 30% that was decreed, that we did, our minister did with president lula and another minister, with esther dweck, to have 30% of black people in the whole public administration, federal administration, and that was never done before. and we totally agree and think of affirmative action as important because it's unbelievable that we only have 3.2% of the population of black people that would enter university and now, we have almost 50%. so, as far as i'm concerned...

crosstalk. but what we see, if i may say so, minister, is that thousands of brazilian politicians are reassigning their own identity. if you compare 2016 with 2020, there were literally thousands of politicians who fought the 2016 election claiming they were white and in 2020 were claiming they were black because they knew that that would give them a better chance, given the quota targets. that — surely, things should not work that way. that sounds crazy. no, but i was talking about university, and now we can talk about this as politicians. but it's not crazy, because when you have a ethnic identification, this is also a way of you're assured that you are a black person. so, that works like this — if you have a black woman who wants to be a candidate and compared to a white man who is already... he used to be a politician, the thing is, she doesn't get a lot of money. she doesn't have a lot of time on tv, and when we create

and when we thought about these laws or these affirmative actions for politicians who would say that they were black, it was to compare. and even if we were talking about that, we're going to take, like, years and years to have a reparation in brazil. brazil was the last country to abolish, you know, slavery here. and this slavery reflects up to today, where the white people in brazil arejust sitting on the chairs that they don't want to let any other people sit, but not because we are not ready to occupy that space or to be in that space or in that position, just because they are racist. and when we talk about affirmative actions in universities, in public concourse or even in politicians, it's important to say that we have 58% of the population and we don't get in places of protagonist or in positions like mine... yeah. ..unless you have the chance to do so or unless you had

opportunity to study. i am an exception. and the way that i understand that i am an exception, i need to work more and more for black people to have access to education and other social issues. but, minister, what you are outlining to me and everything you say — from saying there is a genocide against black people to talking about a massive affirmative action programme, to talking even about reparations to black people in brazil — it's a very radical agenda. are you not also aware that brazil is a deeply polarised nation? after four years of the bolsonaro president, what we saw when he left office was violence around the parliamentary buildings in brasilia. and we also then saw an opinion poll that came out soon afterwards saying that 38% of brazilians thought storming the government buildings was justified and almost 40% believe lula didn't

really win the election. so if you push this radical agenda, you may be deepening the polarisation, the dangerous polarisation, in brazil. do you know what i think is radical? i think racism is radical. i think that fake news is radical. i think that people who put ideology, politics before human rights and safe life and dignity for black people is radical. that's what i think is radical. my work is not radical. i'm just doing something for black population because i believe that we can, and up to the last day that i'm here, i'm going to continue to do that. the people who vote for bolsonaro are, in majority, radical because they say that doesn't exist — racism — in brazil, for example. and on the other side, i have a president who is very human, who wants to take care of black people from the slums,

who goes in the slums with me and many other people and go inside the favelas and say, "we are here to put the poor people inside "our financial issues", because to do politics, you need money. right. minister, you say... it's no good to think about politics without having money. right... so, that's what i think is radical, you know? yeah, minister. sorry to interrupt, minister, but i do want to ask you a question because it's important what you're saying. you say, "i'm not radical. "the bolsonaro people were the true radicals." and you also say you want to push the issues of equity for poor people. but how far are you and your colleagues in government prepared to go? because there is a movement in brazil, the landless workers' movement, known as the mst, which is absolutely committed over the next few years to occupying privately—owned land, claiming it as a right of the poor, landless people of brazil. the leader of... one of the leaders of the mst,

joao paulo rodrigues, says, "there's going to be much more "occupation "all over the country." under a lula government, do you in the government support this landless occupation movement? yes. what i'm going to try... what i was trying to say before you asked me the other question was that radical is not... ..when we know and when we realise that we have to fight for human rights and for our democracy. we are not radical. and i said that the majority of the people... i didn't say everybody that voted for bolsonaro is radical or are radical. i said majority of them, because they brought in 2018 to our country a lot of hate. and when you ask me a question about mst, it's the same thing that when people ask me about being in the favelas. i think that mst and the favelas in brazil need to be respected because..

..we cannot criminalise those people, you know, either the movements and either the favelas. and what the opposition does and what polarisation does is when they start sharing a lot of fake news and when they start saying that, "oh, people who vote for lula "are this," and "people who vote for someone "else are that." this is when polarisation starts, and now the government here that i am part of and i'm very honoured to be a part of and our president lula and all the ministers that have been working for a better place in brazil, is to strengthen our democracy. people need to understand that when we're talking about poor people, we're talking about quilombolas, mst, or the favela people or black people, we're talking about people who didn't have opportunity to do a lot of in life because of racism. given the... it all comes to opportunity

and to racism. just finally, it is possible it's going to be a very dangerous place for you to be in the next few years, in the heart of politics. i'lljust remind you that after your sister was killed, you said that, "if i have to be the next marielle to die, "i will be." but you said, "i am... "..determined to continue her work." do you still... obviously you still feel that today, but you still feel the threat? i think that in any place in brazil, we are threatened. there is no place safe here, you know, when you decide to fight for human rights. i think that the thing that make us wake up every day is to fight for our rights and to understand the importance of our black community, our democracy, our human rights defenders. and i hope not to be the next marielle because i hope

that our democracy still continues to grow strong. and i also hope that the people and the politicians that inspire people to think that it's ok to kill a black woman or to kill black people don't win any other election in this country any more. and that's why we're working for it. that's why it's so beautiful and strong what we're doing, because we have transparency. we have, you know, the rights. and we are definitely working to the poor people, you know, to the people who need the most in this country. and even though we understand the polarisation right now, but the other side, we understand that we need to avoid and to stop racists in this country. and president lula and our government are doing so far a great work. and hopefully i'm going to end my mandate in four years and we are going to be doing a lot of stuff here. well, i hope we can revisit how

it's going later on, but for now, anielle franco, thank you forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. conditions improve for much of the country for wednesday. we're in between weather systems. so again, it's going to be one of sunshine and showers, but nowhere near as wet as what we had across the south of the country on tuesday. now, that's tuesday's area of low pressure clearing off into the near continent. this area of low pressure will enhance showers across scotland, northern ireland. but we're generally in between weather systems with lighter winds as well. now, it could still start wet and windy across the far east of east anglia first thing, but then that'll clear away.

then it's a day of sunshine and showers. you could catch a shower pretty much anywhere, but i think the majority of them will be across scotland and northern ireland because the winds will be lighter. we should see more sunshine around, particularly across the south. we could be up to 20 or 21 celsius, otherwise it's the mid to high teens again in the north. so there is a threat of a passing shower or two for wimbledon. but wednesday's weather looks a lot better. we should get to see some play in the outside courts. so as we move through wednesday nights, most of those showers fade away and then it's drier and clearer for many of us. but breeze and clouds starts to pick up out west ahead of this area of low pressure temperature wise, ranging from 7 to 12 celsius. this is the pressure chart for thursday. we've got high pressure building over the near concert will keep things fine and settled for england and wales. this area of low pressure will park itselfjust to the west of ireland. that's going to bring cloud strong winds and outbreaks of some heavy rain across northern ireland pushing up in towards western scotland. but the rest of the country should stay largely dry

and good spells of sunshine start to pick up a southerly breeze. so temperatures will be picking up 22 or 23 celsius on friday. we have low pressure to the north and the west of the country, higher pressure to the south and the east. and we're drawing up some warm and humid air at this point from the south. so much of england and wales will have a dry, sunny and a very warm day. chances of showers or thunderstorms, particularly for western scotland and northern ireland, where it will also be windier. so it could be the mid to high 20s for england and wales on friday. noticeably warmer with increased humidity. but for the weekend low pressure sits out to the west of the uk and influences the weather pretty much across the whole country. so although it'll stay quite warm across the south on saturday as an increasing threat of showers and thunderstorms as we move through the weekend, temperatures dropping a little bit again on sunday.