good morning. the nhs at 75: will it make 100? so much to say, so much we need to see. the opening ceremony of the olympics, the clapping, it elicits a religious devotion in this country, to criticise it as a sack you can take the politics out of it. the former health secretary said we need to set the adulation to one side and be hard—headed, we need to have an honest debate, basically. think the unthinkable, say the unsayable, think it and see it here. and also taking a look at the nhs, we need to

take a long hard look at ourselves. what we want, how we pay, what we smoke, what we drink, how we live, how we die. we are more likely to from comparable conditions than in other comparable countries and then there is the elephant in the ward, social care. the nhs is ours. let's hear from you. now for the news. health experts are warning that the nhs won't celebrate its 100th birthday without significant investment in beds, buildings and technology. three think tanks have made

the claims as the service marks its 75th birthday. there'll be a special service to commemorate nhs workers at westminster abbey later. schools in england are facing further disruption, as teachers from the national education union strike over pay. they're walking out today and on friday. the government insists its latest pay offer is fair and reasonable. israel has carried out air strikes in the gaza strip, after rockets were fired overnight. the israeli army is withdrawing from jenin in the occupied west bank, after a two—day military operation. alzheimer's charities have praised fiona phillips, who's revealed she's been diagnosed with the disease. the former gmtv presenter, who's 62, is taking part in trials of a new drug which could potentially slow its effects. these think tanks, they say without action the nhs will face managed

decline, that gradually erodes the guarantee of safety. it was designed to create. and they have this report comparing the nhs with 18 similar higher income countries including france, germany, sweden, singapore and the us and the report said a decade of underinvestment combined with the pandemic has left the nhs delivering performance that is middling at best and the uk must do more to reduce the number of people dying early from heart disease and cancer. it was ranked second worst of all countries for saving lives. third worst in efforts to keep citizens healthy. the uk was found to be worse at saving stroke victims, second and such as saving heart attacks by the reported side uk is one of the most efficiently run health services and poll after poll after poll we adore rates, we

arje later and the people who work in who are magnificent, as we have seenin in who are magnificent, as we have seen in recent years. kevin has done just that as has cam. doctor evan from the nhs, consultant anaesthetist, a doctor who hasjust made a documentary about the nhs for bbc sims on radio four. and cam donaldson, professor of health economics at glasgow caledonian university and australian national university, good morning. what is to beat zoran? the think tanks, what are they thinking is not what they have said is chastening.— are they thinking is not what they have said is chastening. honesty is the riaht have said is chastening. honesty is the right policy _ have said is chastening. honesty is the right policy here. _ have said is chastening. honesty is the right policy here. we _ have said is chastening. honesty is the right policy here. we have - have said is chastening. honesty is the right policy here. we have had| have said is chastening. honesty is. the right policy here. we have had a decade were compared to other countries we have had huge underinvestment in the nhs and even that would have been difficult to cope with a loan, but then to take the hit of covid, we now need to do

some serious thinking about how we recover the service from the current position at sin to move forward... they say more money than ever before. . �* , , ., , they say more money than ever before. . �*, , ., , ., before. that's true but with lots of caveats. before. that's true but with lots of caveats- it's _ before. that's true but with lots of caveats. it's not _ before. that's true but with lots of caveats. it's not surprising - before. that's true but with lots of caveats. it's not surprising when i caveats. it's not surprising when you account for inflation in the way the population growth that were spending more money on health service but more money doesn't mean enough money and it certainly has not kept up with the demands of the population is growing and growing older and is more expensive. record investment, but not enough. what investment, but not enough. what about the way _ investment, but not enough. what about the way we _ investment, but not enough. what about the way we approach our own mild spice lots of people mentioning that on the texts coming in this morning —— our own lives? about our personal responsibility, comes up again and again. how much is down to us? ., , ., ., , , us? some of it is down to us but i really don't _ us? some of it is down to us but i really don't think _ us? some of it is down to us but i really don't think people - us? some of it is down to us but i really don't think people wake - us? some of it is down to us but i really don't think people wake up | us? some of it is down to us but i l really don't think people wake up in the morning and think i think i'll p0p along — the morning and think i think i'll pop along to my gp, which actually is quite _ pop along to my gp, which actually is quite difficult to do at the

moment, and just for a chat type of thing. _ moment, and just for a chat type of thing. so _ moment, and just for a chat type of thing. so i — moment, and just for a chat type of thing, so i think it is easy to blame — thing, so i think it is easy to blame individual behaviour and the public— blame individual behaviour and the public for— blame individual behaviour and the public for really something that is much _ public for really something that is much more of a collective problem and a _ much more of a collective problem and a collective responsibility, it has and a collective responsibility, it hasjust— and a collective responsibility, it hasjust been outlined. we are talking — hasjust been outlined. we are talking about ten years of not managed decline but on managed decline _ managed decline but on managed decline and policy drift. the nhs is something that we need to consistently keep on top of from a policy— consistently keep on top of from a policy perspective, and that isjust not happened in terms of any types of vision _ not happened in terms of any types of vision for — not happened in terms of any types of vision for quite a long time. what — of vision for quite a long time. what about lifestyles? i'm reflecting what people are saying, what we smoke, what we drink, what we eat, personal responsibility? i think my own research when we are talking _ think my own research when we are talking about resource allocation and the — talking about resource allocation and the nhs and beyond, we often run

focus groups where that is quite usually — focus groups where that is quite usually the start of the conversation, people are on the table _ conversation, people are on the table in — conversation, people are on the table in the sense of blaming usually— table in the sense of blaming usually others for their reckless behaviour, but once the conversation develops _ behaviour, but once the conversation develops it _ behaviour, but once the conversation develops itjust takes behaviour, but once the conversation develops it just takes one behaviour, but once the conversation develops itjust takes one person behaviour, but once the conversation develops it just takes one person to say, well, _ develops it just takes one person to say, well, perhaps this is more of a reflection _ say, well, perhaps this is more of a reflection of — say, well, perhaps this is more of a reflection of broader inequality in society, — reflection of broader inequality in society, people's social positions, and surely— society, people's social positions, and surely that we need to work on, we need _ and surely that we need to work on, we need to— and surely that we need to work on, we need to work on creating much more _ we need to work on creating much more resilience and equal communities and from that we will see benefits seeping through into the nhs, not focusing on pointing at individuals— the nhs, not focusing on pointing at individuals and say you need to change — individuals and say you need to change your behaviour, with respect to different risk factors like alcohol— to different risk factors like alcohol consumption etc. ijust alcohol consumption etc. i just think— alcohol consumption etc. i just think that _ alcohol consumption etc. ijust think that is an easy way out of the argument — think that is an easy way out of the argument. we mark the alma castro

there _ argument. we mark the alma castro there is— argument. we mark the alma castro there is self— argument. we mark the alma castro there is self responsible to put so much _ there is self responsible to put so much of— there is self responsible to put so much of the nation is not determined by the _ much of the nation is not determined by the national health service so there's— by the national health service so there's lots of bits we need to sew up. there's lots of bits we need to sew u -. ., , .. ., there's lots of bits we need to sew up. housing, education, public health. up. housing, education, public health- all— up. housing, education, public health. all of— up. housing, education, public health. all of which _ up. housing, education, public health. all of which has - up. housing, education, public health. all of which has been l health. all of which has been horrifically underinvested and in the last decade, so her life chances lead to poor life choices in general, it is not true of people just looked after themselves the nhs would be all right, it is part of the puzzle but it's accommodated part and everything is complicated. joined up approach to prevention. chris in oxford and ricky in cardiff. the nhs is ours and we want to hearfrom you. good morning. what would you like to say about the national health service? first down, eve bod national health service? first down, everybody should — national health service? first down, everybody should take _ national health service? first down, everybody should take responsibility| everybody should take responsibility for what they put in their own body. a lot of fuss is made about beds, buildings and technology, but very little is made about investment in

preventative medicine as part of the training for gps. they don't study diet and nutrition to a great extent, and also diet and nutrition are not taught at primary schools. if you start at the beginning at primary schools, then that will set the tone for the future. in addition, there is a very heavy safety net and defeatist talk. for example, comedy for your programme i heard somebody say that some people only have a kettle for cooking and therefore they find it very difficult to eat healthily. you don't cook salad and you don't cook fruit. this whole idea that people haven't got time to exercise, there is a study produced yesterday that showed if you do voluntary work, thatis showed if you do voluntary work, that is as good for your mental health as exercises, so if for example, just for example, if everybody who is listening to this programme now and practised intermittent fasting, not eating

again until this evening, if only 1% of people listening to the programme now volunteering for charities, that would have an immediate positive effect on society. i could go on. you code. you said quite a lot. an absolute fundamental deep—seated cultural change you're basically talking about there. ricky in cardiff, senior educator in health care. i cardiff, senior educator in health care. . cardiff, senior educator in health care. ., , ., ., care. i agree with some of the oints care. i agree with some of the pointsiust _ care. i agree with some of the pointsiust say. _ care. i agree with some of the pointsjust say, absolutely, i care. i agree with some of the| pointsjust say, absolutely, but others — pointsjust say, absolutely, but others say— pointsjust say, absolutely, but others say there is far more complexity than that. as you mention. _ complexity than that. as you mention, changes in society when we talk about— mention, changes in society when we talk about cost of living, people trying _ talk about cost of living, people trying to — talk about cost of living, people trying to find time to do a job and put food — trying to find time to do a job and put food on — trying to find time to do a job and put food on the table, little volunteer, so it's more complex than that, _ volunteer, so it's more complex than that, i_ volunteer, so it's more complex than that, i think — volunteer, so it's more complex than that, ithink i— volunteer, so it's more complex than that, ithink. i do volunteer, so it's more complex than that, i think. i do agree with some of the _ that, i think. i do agree with some of the points. the point ijust wanted — of the points. the point ijust wanted to— of the points. the point ijust wanted to make, really, was he talking — wanted to make, really, was he talking about the nhs in terms of cost, _ talking about the nhs in terms of cost, we — talking about the nhs in terms of cost, we never talk about the

evaluate _ cost, we never talk about the evaluate actually as to society. when — evaluate actually as to society. when we — evaluate actually as to society. when we think about doctors and nurses— when we think about doctors and nurses it's — when we think about doctors and nurses it's all about how much does this wage _ nurses it's all about how much does this wage cost, how much is that wage _ this wage cost, how much is that wage cost? — this wage cost, how much is that wage cost? but what nurses do, what doctors _ wage cost? but what nurses do, what doctors do. _ wage cost? but what nurses do, what doctors do, what physios do, all of that, _ doctors do, what physios do, all of that, comedy actually add value to society— that, comedy actually add value to society and keep people productive. when _ society and keep people productive. when we _ society and keep people productive. when we think about preventative measures— when we think about preventative measures like health visitors and all those — measures like health visitors and all those sorts of things that keeps people _ all those sorts of things that keeps people healthy, adds value to society— people healthy, adds value to society as opposed to... i hate the word _ society as opposed to... i hate the word optics. — society as opposed to... i hate the word optics, i hate it, but i'm going — word optics, i hate it, but i'm going to _ word optics, i hate it, but i'm going to use it. the optics of how the nhs — going to use it. the optics of how the nhs is — going to use it. the optics of how the nhs is used. it adds value to society — the nhs is used. it adds value to socie . ~ , ,., , the nhs is used. it adds value to socie . ., , ., . society. absolutely in agreement. we too often see — society. absolutely in agreement. we too often see the _ society. absolutely in agreement. we too often see the health _ society. absolutely in agreement. we too often see the health service - too often see the health service only as an anchor on the economy, financial black hole we pour money into, but it is part of society, supports a strong economy, strong economies need strong health services and adds value. as we heard, it adds value to the population, it allows the population

to conduct the lives they want to conducts and allows them to be part of the economy, a productive part of the economy. the relationship between the health service in the economy is not one that it cease and plays an anchor, which they wait to soften portrayed, it is fundamental to the performance of a strong economy. i to the performance of a strong economy-— to the performance of a strong econom . .., �* ., ., to the performance of a strong econom . �* ., ., economy. i couldn't agree more. the stud a economy. i couldn't agree more. the study a few — economy. i couldn't agree more. the study a few years _ economy. i couldn't agree more. the study a few years ago _ economy. i couldn't agree more. the study a few years ago looking - economy. i couldn't agree more. the study a few years ago looking at - study a few years ago looking at costs. _ study a few years ago looking at costs, adds a couple of years, and from _ costs, adds a couple of years, and from then— costs, adds a couple of years, and from then on it is the benefit of havingm — from then on it is the benefit of having... we are looking at the wages — having... we are looking at the wages at — having... we are looking at the wages at the moment, a colleague of mine, _ wages at the moment, a colleague of mine, a _ wages at the moment, a colleague of mine, a former colleague, on twitter the other— mine, a former colleague, on twitter the other day, when we look about ageisnr, _ the other day, when we look about ageism, when i run a bath i make sure— ageism, when i run a bath i make sure the — ageism, when i run a bath i make sure the plug is in first, we are seeing — sure the plug is in first, we are seeing a— sure the plug is in first, we are seeing a huge drain, staff away from the nhs, _ seeing a huge drain, staff away from the nhs, and just because of lack of value. _ the nhs, and just because of lack of value, resilience has been hammered absolutely, _ value, resilience has been hammered absolutely, i think it is difficult.

but there — absolutely, i think it is difficult. but there is money out there. societal— but there is money out there. societal choices, it is a societal choice — societal choices, it is a societal choice of— societal choices, it is a societal choice of where money goes and as we've _ choice of where money goes and as we've all— choice of where money goes and as we've all agreed to this morning, add to— we've all agreed to this morning, add to the — we've all agreed to this morning, add to the value. fire we've all agreed to this morning, add to the value.— we've all agreed to this morning, add to the value. are used to work for a stroke _ add to the value. are used to work for a stroke charity _ add to the value. are used to work for a stroke charity and _ add to the value. are used to work for a stroke charity and they - add to the value. are used to work| for a stroke charity and they always had their— for a stroke charity and they always had their meetings _ for a stroke charity and they always had their meetings in— for a stroke charity and they always had their meetings in the _ for a stroke charity and they always had their meetings in the pub - for a stroke charity and they always had their meetings in the pub and ij had their meetings in the pub and i would _ had their meetings in the pub and i would say— had their meetings in the pub and i would say that— had their meetings in the pub and i would say that it _ had their meetings in the pub and i would say that it increases - had their meetings in the pub and i would say that it increases your. would say that it increases your risk of — would say that it increases your risk of getting _ would say that it increases your risk of getting its _ would say that it increases your risk of getting its second - would say that it increases yourj risk of getting its second stroke and the — risk of getting its second stroke and the answer— risk of getting its second stroke and the answer was _ risk of getting its second stroke and the answer was always - risk of getting its second stroke and the answer was always i- risk of getting its second stroke i and the answer was always i take blood _ and the answer was always i take blood thinners _ and the answer was always i take blood thinners and _ and the answer was always i take blood thinners and that _ blood thinners and that counterbalances - blood thinners and that counterbalances the i blood thinners and that. counterbalances the effect blood thinners and that - counterbalances the effect of alcohol, _ counterbalances the effect of alcohol, so _ counterbalances the effect of alcohol, so this _ counterbalances the effect of alcohol, so this whole - counterbalances the effect of alcohol, so this whole idea i counterbalances the effect ofj alcohol, so this whole idea of counterbalances the effect of - alcohol, so this whole idea of the nhs being — alcohol, so this whole idea of the nhs being seen— alcohol, so this whole idea of the nhs being seen as _ alcohol, so this whole idea of the nhs being seen as a _ alcohol, so this whole idea of the nhs being seen as a safety - alcohol, so this whole idea of the nhs being seen as a safety net, i alcohol, so this whole idea of the i nhs being seen as a safety net, the nhs being seen as a safety net, the nhs is _ nhs being seen as a safety net, the nhs is in— nhs being seen as a safety net, the nhs is in trouble _ nhs being seen as a safety net, the nhs is in trouble and _ nhs being seen as a safety net, the nhs is in trouble and people - nhs being seen as a safety net, the nhs is in trouble and people say- nhs being seen as a safety net, thel nhs is in trouble and people say how can i nhs is in trouble and people say how can i avoid _ nhs is in trouble and people say how can i avoid using _ nhs is in trouble and people say how can i avoid using the _ nhs is in trouble and people say how can i avoid using the nhs? _ nhs is in trouble and people say how can i avoid using the nhs? the - can i avoid using the nhs? the people — can i avoid using the nhs? the people who _ can i avoid using the nhs? the people who really _ can i avoid using the nhs? the people who really need - can i avoid using the nhs? the people who really need it, - can i avoid using the nhs? the people who really need it, thel people who really need it, the cancer— people who really need it, the cancer and _ people who really need it, the cancer and stroke _ people who really need it, the cancer and stroke survivors, l people who really need it, the - cancer and stroke survivors, people are broken— cancer and stroke survivors, people are broken links _ cancer and stroke survivors, people are broken links and _ cancer and stroke survivors, people are broken links and so _ cancer and stroke survivors, people are broken links and so on, - cancer and stroke survivors, people are broken links and so on, they. are broken links and so on, they would _ are broken links and so on, they would be — are broken links and so on, they would be able _ are broken links and so on, they would be able to _ are broken links and so on, they would be able to use _ are broken links and so on, they would be able to use the - are broken links and so on, they| would be able to use the facility. an example _ would be able to use the facility. an example just _ would be able to use the facility. an example just before - would be able to use the facility.

an example just before your - an example just before your programme, _ an example just before your programme, somebody- an example just before your . programme, somebody saying an example just before your - programme, somebody saying some people _ programme, somebody saying some people can't— programme, somebody saying some people can't get— programme, somebody saying some people can't get to _ programme, somebody saying some people can't get to the _ programme, somebody saying some people can't get to the doctors - people can't get to the doctors because — people can't get to the doctors because they _ people can't get to the doctors because they can't _ people can't get to the doctors because they can't afford - people can't get to the doctors because they can't afford to i people can't get to the doctorsl because they can't afford to use people can't get to the doctors - because they can't afford to use the internet~ _ because they can't afford to use the internet~ the — because they can't afford to use the internet. the internet— because they can't afford to use the internet. the internet is— because they can't afford to use the internet. the internet is free - because they can't afford to use the internet. the internet is free in - because they can't afford to use the internet. the internet is free in a i internet. the internet is free in a variety— internet. the internet is free in a variety of— internet. the internet is free in a variety of places. _ internet. the internet is free in a variety of places. libraries - internet. the internet is free in a variety of places. libraries where it is warm — variety of places. libraries where it is warm and _ variety of places. libraries where it is warm and you _ variety of places. libraries where it is warm and you can _ variety of places. libraries where it is warm and you can use - variety of places. libraries where it is warm and you can use the i it is warm and you can use the internet — it is warm and you can use the internet and _ it is warm and you can use the internet and you _ it is warm and you can use the internet and you can - it is warm and you can use the internet and you can make i it is warm and you can use the. internet and you can make your appointments _ internet and you can make your appointments. but— internet and you can make your appointments. but people i internet and you can make yourl appointments. but people want, internet and you can make your - appointments. but people want, they keep on— appointments. but people want, they keep on seeing— appointments. but people want, they keep on seeing it— appointments. but people want, they keep on seeing it as— appointments. but people want, they keep on seeing it as a _ appointments. but people want, they keep on seeing it as a safety- appointments. but people want, they keep on seeing it as a safety net i keep on seeing it as a safety net and therefore _ keep on seeing it as a safety net and therefore the _ keep on seeing it as a safety net and therefore the only— keep on seeing it as a safety net and therefore the only deal- keep on seeing it as a safety net and therefore the only deal with| keep on seeing it as a safety net i and therefore the only deal with the supply— and therefore the only deal with the supply icon — and therefore the only deal with the supply icon money— and therefore the only deal with the supply icon money going _ and therefore the only deal with the supply icon money going into - and therefore the only deal with the supply icon money going into the i supply icon money going into the nhs, _ supply icon money going into the nhs, the — supply icon money going into the nhs, the billions _ supply icon money going into the nhs, the billions spent - supply icon money going into the nhs, the billions spent on - supply icon money going into the nhs, the billions spent on the i supply icon money going into the i nhs, the billions spent on the nhs, if it was— nhs, the billions spent on the nhs, if it was spent — nhs, the billions spent on the nhs, if it was spent instead _ nhs, the billions spent on the nhs, if it was spent instead on _ if it was spent instead on preventative _ if it was spent instead on preventative medicine... | if it was spent instead on i preventative medicine... the if it was spent instead on - preventative medicine... the idea if it was spent instead on _ preventative medicine... the idea to spend _ preventative medicine... the idea to spend more — preventative medicine... the idea to spend more on— preventative medicine... the idea to spend more on education— preventative medicine... the idea to spend more on education at- preventative medicine... the idea to spend more on education at primary| spend more on education at primary school— spend more on education at primary school to— spend more on education at primary school to educate _ spend more on education at primary school to educate people _ spend more on education at primary school to educate people with - spend more on education at primary school to educate people with a i spend more on education at primary| school to educate people with a view point, _ school to educate people with a view point, i_ school to educate people with a view point, idon't— school to educate people with a view point, i don't want _ school to educate people with a view point, i don't want to _ school to educate people with a view point, i don't want to use _ school to educate people with a view point, i don't want to use the - school to educate people with a view point, i don't want to use the nhs i point, i don't want to use the nhs because _ point, i don't want to use the nhs because i'm — point, i don't want to use the nhs because i'm taking _ point, i don't want to use the nhs because i'm taking responsibility. because i'm taking responsibility for my— because i'm taking responsibility for my body— because i'm taking responsibility for my body and _ because i'm taking responsibility for my body and my _ because i'm taking responsibility for my body and my lifestyle. i because i'm taking responsibility| for my body and my lifestyle. the world _ for my body and my lifestyle. the world health_ for my body and my lifestyle. the world health organization - for my body and my lifestyle. the world health organization said i for my body and my lifestyle. the i world health organization said 60% of illnesses — world health organization said 60% of illnesses and _ world health organization said 60% of illnesses and so _ world health organization said 60% of illnesses and so on, _ world health organization said 60% of illnesses and so on, as _ world health organization said 60% of illnesses and so on, as a - of illnesses and so on, as a colleague _ of illnesses and so on, as a colleague said _ of illnesses and so on, as a colleague said earlier, i of illnesses and so on, as a colleague said earlier, ourl colleague said earlier, our lifestyle _ colleague said earlier, our lifestyle —related. - colleague said earlier, our lifestyle -related.- colleague said earlier, our lifestyle -related. and funding model? bean _ lifestyle -related. and funding model? bean the _ lifestyle -related. and funding model? bean the funding i lifestyle -related. and funding l model? bean the funding would lifestyle -related. and funding i model? bean the funding would be lifestyle -related. and funding - model? bean the funding would be the state sector education primary and funded through fiscal policy and

taxes. . ., . ., , taxes. can also incidentally the taxes, taxes. can also incidentally the taxes. i'm _ taxes. can also incidentally the taxes, i'm not— taxes. can also incidentally the taxes, i'm not pro-smoking i taxes. can also incidentally the| taxes, i'm not pro-smoking but taxes. can also incidentally the i taxes, i'm not pro-smoking but the taxes, i'm not pro—smoking but the taxes _ taxes, i'm not pro—smoking but the taxes on _ taxes, i'm not pro—smoking but the taxes on cigarettes _ taxes, i'm not pro—smoking but the taxes on cigarettes more _ taxes, i'm not pro—smoking but the taxes on cigarettes more than i taxes, i'm not pro—smoking but the taxes on cigarettes more than pay. taxes on cigarettes more than pay for the _ taxes on cigarettes more than pay for the harm — taxes on cigarettes more than pay for the harm that _ taxes on cigarettes more than pay for the harm that is _ taxes on cigarettes more than pay for the harm that is done - taxes on cigarettes more than pay for the harm that is done by- taxes on cigarettes more than pay for the harm that is done by the l for the harm that is done by the cigarette — for the harm that is done by the cigarette smoking, _ for the harm that is done by the cigarette smoking, so— for the harm that is done by the cigarette smoking, so there i for the harm that is done by the cigarette smoking, so there is l for the harm that is done by the i cigarette smoking, so there is an economic— cigarette smoking, so there is an economic taste. _ cigarette smoking, so there is an economic taste, not _ cigarette smoking, so there is an economic taste, not a _ cigarette smoking, so there is an economic taste, not a moral i cigarette smoking, so there is anl economic taste, not a moral taste subsidising — economic taste, not a moral taste subsidising cigarettes. _ economic taste, not a moral taste subsidising cigarettes. can - economic taste, not a moral taste subsidising cigarettes.— subsidising cigarettes. can i add somethina subsidising cigarettes. can i add something there, _ subsidising cigarettes. can i add something there, the _ subsidising cigarettes. can i add something there, the nhs i subsidising cigarettes. can i add something there, the nhs is i subsidising cigarettes. can i add| something there, the nhs is not subsidising cigarettes. can i add i something there, the nhs is notjust reactionary medicine in terms of broken legs and that sort of thing that we sometimes view it as, there is the work of people like i mention comments about health promotion as well, about trying to change the way well, about trying to change the way we work and society in terms of how we work and society in terms of how we consume foods, cooking, all that sort of thing, looking after our health, so the nhs is notjust about that reactionary medicine, and as a lecturer one of the biggest things we do with our students as work on health the motion, one of the biggest things we actually do it —— health emotion. understanding what

the nhs does. i don't mean to say that detrimentally, i know you understood, people need to understand to a greater deal what the nhs actually does. this understand to a greater deal what the nhs actually does.— understand to a greater deal what the nhs actually does. this is such an important _ the nhs actually does. this is such an important competition. - the nhs actually does. this is such an important competition. let i the nhs actually does. this is such an important competition. let me | an important competition. let me move it onto some more people. cliff, is all yours, good morning. yes, good morning. iam 70 cliff, is all yours, good morning. yes, good morning. i am 70 years old and have _ yes, good morning. i am 70 years old and have two— yes, good morning. i am 70 years old and have two company pensions, my state _ and have two company pensions, my state pension, i live in a nice house. — state pension, i live in a nice house. i_ state pension, i live in a nice house, i personally think that if i need _ house, i personally think that if i need nhs — house, i personally think that if i need nhs care, i should contribute, i need nhs care, i should contribute, i know— need nhs care, i should contribute, i know some disagree, but i think i should _ i know some disagree, but i think i should be — i know some disagree, but i think i should be asked to contribute to my care _ should be asked to contribute to my care. irrespective of the tax is paid _ care. irrespective of the tax is paid in— care. irrespective of the tax is paid in the _ care. irrespective of the tax is paid in the past was that i paid an awful— paid in the past was that i paid an awful lot — paid in the past was that i paid an awful lot of— paid in the past was that i paid an awful lot of tax, i can assure you that _ awful lot of tax, i can assure you that and — awful lot of tax, i can assure you that and a — awful lot of tax, i can assure you that. and a much more basic point, i

think— that. and a much more basic point, i think people — that. and a much more basic point, i think people if they can afford it should — think people if they can afford it should be charged for accommodation and meals _ should be charged for accommodation and meals when they are in hospital. what _ and meals when they are in hospital. what should you be charged for? we need to discuss this, for some people are just thinking the unthinkable before others it is a practical road ahead. that would have to be _ practical road ahead. that would have to be worked _ practical road ahead. that would have to be worked out, - practical road ahead. that would have to be worked out, i - practical road ahead. that would have to be worked out, i don't i practical road ahead. that would i have to be worked out, i don't think you should — have to be worked out, i don't think you should be charged for a specific drugs _ you should be charged for a specific drugs operation or something like that, _ drugs operation or something like that, by— drugs operation or something like that, by think there should be some kind of— that, by think there should be some kind of mechanism by which you are charged _ kind of mechanism by which you are charged according to your means. i know— charged according to your means. i know this _ charged according to your means. i know this is — charged according to your means. i know this is against the basic philosophy, but i wouldn't have any problem _ philosophy, but i wouldn't have any problem with that at all. yes, basics are _ problem with that at all. yes, basics are free _ problem with that at all. yes, basics are free in _ problem with that at all. yes, basics are free in new- problem with that at all. yes, | basics are free in new zealand health care for your charged to your gp. i want to address the whole funding model as well, the other thing that always comes up. for some to actually suggest anything that veers from the model we have is seen as heresy. i was very struck, go to

podcast on bbc sense: different, a little plug, but was interviewing a guy who nearly died, flying a plane, solo flying the plane crashed and he had horrendous injuries in the us medical services came to him asap, as quick as possible on the first thing they said was do you have health insurance? that was it. it was such an arresting moment in that conversation. i couldn't believe it. and those are not made up stories. i was on internet at washington hospital centre my final year medical school in the first person came to these guys who had been bashed up, shot, beaten up, crash cars was the hospital advocate they called them, who with a clipboard side what is your insurance policy number. it was unbelievable but that does happen. that number. it was unbelievable but that does happen-— does happen. that is pretty chillina , does happen. that is pretty chilling, given _ does happen. that is pretty chilling, given what - does happen. that is pretty chilling, given what we i does happen. that is pretty| chilling, given what we have does happen. that is pretty i chilling, given what we have and what we have had. certain caveats about we can talk about dentures, we can talk about eye tests, but

germany. lots of people cite germany. lots of people cite germany. you might have a word in this first of all german citizens entitled to medically necessary emergency health care funded by taxes and after that, health insurance is mandatory and cover things like hospital treatment, patient cause, pregnancy and prescriptions. if you earn less than 66,600 euros you are enrolled into a public health insurance known as a sickness fund, how much you pay is based on your income, could be between 14.6% or 15.6% and to split 50-50 with between 14.6% or 15.6% and to split 50—50 with your employer, and higher earning german citizens are allowed to opt out of the statutory insurance system and choose private health cover instead. its advocates say it works very well. i health cover instead. its advocates say it works very well.— say it works very well. i think i would agree — say it works very well. i think i would agree with _ say it works very well. i think i would agree with that. - say it works very well. i think i would agree with that. the i say it works very well. i think i i would agree with that. the german system _ would agree with that. the german system is _ would agree with that. the german system is one of the best in the world, — system is one of the best in the world, but— system is one of the best in the world, but i would also think it would — world, but i would also think it would be — world, but i would also think it would be disastrous for us to actually— would be disastrous for us to actually switch to that kind of

system, _ actually switch to that kind of system, the reason for that is, can you imagine — system, the reason for that is, can you imagine how long it is going to take to _ you imagine how long it is going to take to reform our whole system? the structures, _ take to reform our whole system? the structures, the forms of collection of the _ structures, the forms of collection of the money etc, to mimic what goes on in _ of the money etc, to mimic what goes on in germany? when actually, if you really— on in germany? when actually, if you really look— on in germany? when actually, if you really look at — on in germany? when actually, if you really look at the basis of it from what _ really look at the basis of it from what you — really look at the basis of it from what you described, the money is coming _ what you described, the money is coming from a form of taxation, whether— coming from a form of taxation, whether it — coming from a form of taxation, whether it is payroll tax or whatever, which is essentially the same _ whatever, which is essentially the same as— whatever, which is essentially the same as what we have in the united kingdom _ same as what we have in the united kingdom. the difference is the german— kingdom. the difference is the german suspend one and a half to 2% more _ german suspend one and a half to 2% more of— german suspend one and a half to 2% more of their— german suspend one and a half to 2% more of their national income on their— more of their national income on their health care system than we do. so all— their health care system than we do. so all of— their health care system than we do. so all of these social insurance systems — so all of these social insurance systems that get quoted, netherlands, germany etc, all consistently spent more than we do, and what _ consistently spent more than we do, and what that does is gives them

more _ and what that does is gives them more freedom to deal with capacity, to deal— more freedom to deal with capacity, to deal with things like pandemics, and also _ to deal with things like pandemics, and also gives them more freedom and capacity— and also gives them more freedom and capacity to _ and also gives them more freedom and capacity to deal with providing, putting — capacity to deal with providing, putting an emphasis on care out of hospital. _ putting an emphasis on care out of hospital, which are some of the things— hospital, which are some of the things kevin was referring to, which would _ things kevin was referring to, which would help— things kevin was referring to, which would help sustain the nhs itself. the uk, _ would help sustain the nhs itself. the uk, 12.4% gdp, france 11.3, germany 12.8, new zealand 9%, italy 8.7%, canada 12.2%. jenny in yeovil, kevin, you can respond.— kevin, you can respond. good morning. _ kevin, you can respond. good morning. happy— kevin, you can respond. good morning, happy birthday i kevin, you can respond. (13mg. morning, happy birthday national health service.— health service. absolutely, will it make 100? _ health service. absolutely, will it make 100? i _ health service. absolutely, will it make 100? i hope _ health service. absolutely, will it make 100? i hope so, _ health service. absolutely, will it make 100? i hope so, i— health service. absolutely, will it make 100? i hope so, i really i health service. absolutely, will it i make 100? i hope so, i really hope so, make 100? i hope so, i really hope so. because _ make 100? i hope so, i really hope so. because it _ make 100? i hope so, i really hope so, because it is _ make 100? i hope so, i really hope so, because it is probably - make 100? i hope so, i really hope so, because it is probably the i make 100? i hope so, i really hope so, because it is probably the best| so, because it is probably the best invention that we have ever done in

this country, we should be proud of the, we should be proud of everyone who works for the and we should be looking after it. my point was, when i texted in, sadly this government has wasted so much on ppe, the contracts that they issued out, wasted money on their mates' contracts, i'm looking at figures on google and it is billions we've wasted on the ppe contracts. there is money there about this government has wasted a lot of money, and we should be making sure we get that money back from... we should be making sure we get that money back from. . ._ should be making sure we get that money back from. .. we have the ghost that continues — money back from. .. we have the ghost that continues to _ money back from. .. we have the ghost that continues to hunters, _ money back from. .. we have the ghost that continues to hunters, the - money back from. .. we have the ghost that continues to hunters, the blair- that continues to hunters, the blair project, and before to an extent, private finance initiative swell, and that, then kevin and on that

one. that's true but what the area tells us is that more money does help the nhs. the tells us is that more money does help the nhs-— tells us is that more money does hel the nhs. , ., .,, help the nhs. the period when i was a “unior help the nhs. the period when i was a junior doctor _ help the nhs. the period when i was a junior doctor recommends - help the nhs. the period when i was a junior doctor recommends on i help the nhs. the period when i was a junior doctor recommends on my i help the nhs. the period when i was| a junior doctor recommends on my -- a junior doctor recommends on my —— on the _ a junior doctor recommends on my —— on the 50th _ a junior doctor recommends on my —— on the 50th birthday, there is more waiting _ on the 50th birthday, there is more waiting lists, people did not weighting any waiting rooms any more, _ weighting any waiting rooms any more. so — weighting any waiting rooms any more, so we know if you have money you spend _ more, so we know if you have money you spend it — more, so we know if you have money you spend it well, it's arguable during — you spend it well, it's arguable during the blair era the response to much _ during the blair era the response to much money to quickly and some could be spent _ much money to quickly and some could be spent openly but there is no doubt _ be spent openly but there is no doubt more money improved health service _ doubt more money improved health service and — doubt more money improved health service and also i want to come back on the _ service and also i want to come back on the comparisons to make comments very difficult _ on the comparisons to make comments very difficult to compare country to country _ very difficult to compare country to country, the best way do is to compare _ country, the best way do is to compare how much money got on the system, _ compare how much money got on the system, what advice you on how much is spent _ system, what advice you on how much is spent per— system, what advice you on how much is spent per head of population, on those _ is spent per head of population, on those measures germany is way out ahead, _ those measures germany is way out ahead, per— those measures germany is way out ahead, per head of population for what _ ahead, per head of population for what a _ ahead, per head of population for what a unit— ahead, per head of population for what a unit of currency buys you, about _ what a unit of currency buys you, about $4500 i think the calculator to then _ about $4500 i think the calculator to then head of population. this so

when _ to then head of population. this so when we _ to then head of population. this so when we see germany is better, it is better— when we see germany is better, it is better but— when we see germany is better, it is better but that 1% that can talks about _ better but that 1% that can talks about doesn't fit fine enough a point _ about doesn't fit fine enough a point on — about doesn't fit fine enough a point on it, that £1500 per person more _ point on it, that £1500 per person more per— point on it, that £1500 per person more per head of population buying how they— more per head of population buying how they have... of course they will have _ how they have... of course they will have a _ how they have... of course they will have a better system. can how they have... of course they will have a better system.— how they have... of course they will have a better system. can i commend reis why my — have a better system. can i commend reis why my guess. — have a better system. can i commend reis why my guess. i— have a better system. can i commend reis why my guess, i defer. _ have a better system. can i commend reis why my guess, i defer. i - have a better system. can i commend reis why my guess, i defer. i want i reis why my guess, i defer. i want to highlight — reis why my guess, i defer. i want to highlight one _ reis why my guess, i defer. i want to highlight one fact, _ reis why my guess, i defer. i want to highlight one fact, the - reis why my guess, i defer. i want to highlight one fact, the boris i to highlight one fact, the boris johnson's _ to highlight one fact, the boris johnson's government- to highlight one fact, the boris johnson's government spent i to highlight one fact, the boris johnson's government spent 4| to highlight one fact, the boris - johnson's government spent 4 billion on ppe _ johnson's government spent 4 billion on ppe that _ johnson's government spent 4 billion on ppe that didn't— johnson's government spent 4 billion on ppe that didn't even— johnson's government spent 4 billion on ppe that didn't even meet- johnson's government spent 4 billion on ppe that didn't even meet the i on ppe that didn't even meet the national— on ppe that didn't even meet the national health _ on ppe that didn't even meet the national health service - on ppe that didn't even meet the| national health service standards and got _ national health service standards and got dumped _ national health service standards and got dumped. the _ national health service standards and got dumped. the amount- national health service standards and got dumped. the amount of. national health service standards - and got dumped. the amount of money we are _ and got dumped. the amount of money we are spending— and got dumped. the amount of money we are spending on— and got dumped. the amount of money we are spending on storing _ and got dumped. the amount of money we are spending on storing ppe - and got dumped. the amount of money we are spending on storing ppe that i we are spending on storing ppe that we are spending on storing ppe that we can— we are spending on storing ppe that we can never— we are spending on storing ppe that we can never use, _ we are spending on storing ppe that we can never use, there _ we are spending on storing ppe that we can never use, there is- we are spending on storing ppe that we can never use, there is a - we are spending on storing ppe that we can never use, there is a big i we can never use, there is a big waste _ we can never use, there is a big waste of— we can never use, there is a big waste of money— we can never use, there is a big waste of money by— we can never use, there is a big waste of money by this - we can never use, there is a big i waste of money by this government. share, _ waste of money by this government. share, and _ waste of money by this government. share, and some _ waste of money by this government. share, and some people _ waste of money by this government. share, and some people say- waste of money by this government. share, and some people say there i waste of money by this government. share, and some people say there isi share, and some people say there is waste with them. yeah. you made that point very well. sajid javid a side in this article and also in interviews, the former health

secretary, said the nhs is frozen in time and let britain sicker than those in many other western countries. calling for a royal commission into the l service to provide a dispassionate and honest assessment of how it can be reformed. i can't remember a time when we were shirking from a dispassionate and honest assessment and it's always slightly curious when politicians say that. but there we are. a royal commission talking about love what he did say which was interesting as well, he speaks a lot of people in the comments from across the political spectrum who agree with him, but it is right now towards an election on sables, completely unsayable, because no one... in completely unsayable, because no one... :: ' completely unsayable, because no one... i: ' completely unsayable, because no one... if ::' one... in 2021, may 2021, there was an lse one. .. in 2021, may 2021, there was an lse lancer— one... in 2021, may 2021, there was an lse lancer commission _ one... in 2021, may 2021, there was an lse lancer commission which - one... in 2021, may 2021, there was| an lse lancer commission which was one... in 2021, may 2021, there was i an lse lancer commission which was a report— an lse lancer commission which was a report on_ an lse lancer commission which was a report on the _ an lse lancer commission which was a report on the future of the nhs, so as you _ report on the future of the nhs, so as you have — report on the future of the nhs, so as you have said, we've never

shirked — as you have said, we've never shirked away from dispassionate debates— shirked away from dispassionate debates and also that has been formalised in the sense of these types _ formalised in the sense of these types of— formalised in the sense of these types of commissions. that was a bunch _ types of commissions. that was a bunch of— types of commissions. that was a bunch of international experts who laid out _ bunch of international experts who laid out the plans in terms of what we need _ laid out the plans in terms of what we need to— laid out the plans in terms of what we need to do about workforce, what we need to do about workforce, what we need _ we need to do about workforce, what we need to— we need to do about workforce, what we need to do about workforce, what we need to do about workforce, what we need to do about use of technology, having a more joined up system, _ technology, having a more joined up system, and it did involve the proposal— system, and it did involve the proposal from modest increases in tax, although perhaps for many people — tax, although perhaps for many people that is the rug but never the less these _ people that is the rug but never the less these assessments are there and to set— less these assessments are there and to set up— less these assessments are there and to setup a _ less these assessments are there and to set up a royal commission, again, when _ to set up a royal commission, again, when it— to set up a royal commission, again, when it is_ to set up a royal commission, again, when it is that commission going to report? _ when it is that commission going to report? it— when it is that commission going to report? it could take two to three years. _ report? it could take two to three years, when we have acute needs right— years, when we have acute needs right now — years, when we have acute needs right now to deal with and it's quite — right now to deal with and it's quite obvious i think what we need to do— quite obvious i think what we need to do about — quite obvious i think what we need to do about them. why mac lets go with george and chris, i see you in a suh-25_ with george and chris, i see you in a sub—25 years. chris, will it make

100? _ a sub-25 years. chris, will it make 100? ., , , ., 100? hi. i doubt it. there needs to be possibly — 100? hi. i doubt it. there needs to be possibly a _ 100? hi. i doubt it. there needs to be possibly a wider— 100? hi. i doubt it. there needs to be possibly a wider discussion - 100? hi. i doubt it. there needs to be possibly a wider discussion on l be possibly a wider discussion on dare i say the p word, there needs to be more competition within the nhs. from my experience, supply chains and equipments, the nhs is stuck in time when it comes to equipment... stuck in time when it comes to equipment - -_ stuck in time when it comes to equipment... stuck in time when it comes to ea-uiment... . �*, . equipment... that's what sa'id javid said, equipment... that's what sa'id javid said. fezen — equipment... that's what sa'id javid said, frozen in i equipment... that's what sa'id javid said, frozen in time, fl equipment... that's what sajid javid said, frozen in time, whereby - equipment... that's what sajid javid | said, frozen in time, whereby behind the curve when it comes to the medical technology and equipment. carry on. if you think of how many hospitals there are in the country... hospitals there are in the country- - -_ hospitals there are in the count , ., ., country... sometimes when we go into our su -l country... sometimes when we go into our supply chains. _ country... sometimes when we go into our supply chains, eros, _ country... sometimes when we go into our supply chains, eros, this _ our supply chains, eros, this primitive system, you look on the

internet for the same type of equipment you need, if you google it, the prices of staff on the system that we have to buy from as nurses trying to get equipment for our unit it is astronomical. any big sort of company, they seem to pay lots and lots of money for overpriced items and because it is seen as the nhs has billions and billions of pounds year—on—year supplied, these companies are renting the nhs, basically, for billions of pounds that could be savedif billions of pounds that could be saved if there were some sort of competition put in place and people put in charge of getting the best prices for stuff for the nhs. in my experience, it never happened. i do

experience, it never happened. i do think ou experience, it never happened. i do think you are _ experience, it never happened. i do think you are right about procurement, the nhs does not use its massive — procurement, the nhs does not use its massive purchasing power of such a large _ its massive purchasing power of such a large organisation, but coming back— a large organisation, but coming back to — a large organisation, but coming back to the idea of the nhs frozen in time _ back to the idea of the nhs frozen in time and the comparisons with other— in time and the comparisons with other countries, in the end with health— other countries, in the end with health care system to get what you pay for _ health care system to get what you pay for it — health care system to get what you pay for it. we have average outcomes, we are not the best health care system _ outcomes, we are not the best health care system in the world, that's because — care system in the world, that's because we spend an average amount of money— because we spend an average amount of money per head of population on our health— of money per head of population on our health service, there is no getting — our health service, there is no getting away from that fact, so whenever we make these comparisons we must _ whenever we make these comparisons we must be _ whenever we make these comparisons we must be sure to compare apples with apples and to recognise we are mid-table _ with apples and to recognise we are mid—table in our expenditure and therefore — mid—table in our expenditure and therefore mid—table with their outcomes, so chris is right about the procurement back, there are things— the procurement back, there are things we — the procurement back, there are things we can do better, but when it comes— things we can do better, but when it comes to _ things we can do better, but when it comes to systems, first look to how much _ comes to systems, first look to how much we _ comes to systems, first look to how much we spend. but comes to systems, first look to how much we spend-— much we spend. but hole restructuring _ much we spend. but hole restructuring by - much we spend. but hole restructuring by one - much we spend. but hole - restructuring by one government much we spend. but hole _ restructuring by one government and de—structuring by another, remember the andrew lansley reforms, 2011... so big you could see them from space — so big you could see them from sace. z, z, so big you could see them from sace. ., ., . .

space. even mooted at the time that david cameron _ space. even mooted at the time that david cameron and _ space. even mooted at the time that david cameron and others _ space. even mooted at the time that david cameron and others had - space. even mooted at the time that david cameron and others had not i david cameron and others had not looked at them properly and they came in under the wire but they were massive. , , ., ., , massive. this is one of the things we t to massive. this is one of the things we try to do _ massive. this is one of the things we try to do with _ massive. this is one of the things we try to do with the _ massive. this is one of the things we try to do with the series - massive. this is one of the things we try to do with the series we've made _ we try to do with the series we've made for— we try to do with the series we've made for nhs who cares on bbc four next week, _ made for nhs who cares on bbc four next week, it is to try and explored some _ next week, it is to try and explored some of— next week, it is to try and explored some of the — next week, it is to try and explored some of the mess about the nhs, we don't get _ some of the mess about the nhs, we don't get anywhere if we still go to the single — don't get anywhere if we still go to the single magic bill answers, reform — the single magic bill answers, reform is— the single magic bill answers, reform is one of them. reform... the nhs is _ reform is one of them. reform... the nhs is the _ reform is one of them. reform... the nhs is the most reformed health care service _ nhs is the most reformed health care service in— nhs is the most reformed health care service in the world, no other country— service in the world, no other country does what we do. since i started studying as a medical student, _ started studying as a medical student, there have been five major structural— student, there have been five major structural reforms i think of the health— structural reforms i think of the health service and here's the thing, reform _ health service and here's the thing, reform sometimes do some good, very often they— reform sometimes do some good, very often they do nothing, sometimes they do— often they do nothing, sometimes they do harmony was are the ones that politicians use when they are out of _ that politicians use when they are out of ideas and it's like switching the nhs _ out of ideas and it's like switching the nhs often switching it back on again— the nhs often switching it back on again something magical will happen in the _ again something magical will happen in the rebate. reform is not a magic bullet, _ in the rebate. reform is not a magic bullet, needs to be accompanied by the right— bullet, needs to be accompanied by the right investment and also the

i’ili'it the right investment and also the right ideas. people say reform when actually _ right ideas. people say reform when actually we — right ideas. people say reform when actually we don't always know truly what that's going to do to the service — george in dunstable, what do you have to say? i george in dunstable, what do you have to say?— george in dunstable, what do you have to say? i agree with an earlier caller, in have to say? i agree with an earlier caller. in the _ have to say? i agree with an earlier caller, in the tie _ have to say? i agree with an earlier caller, in the tie completely - have to say? i agree with an earlier caller, in the tie completely and . caller, in the tie completely and utterly admired the clinical side and everything about the nhs. but having worked as a contractor for them for several years up and down them for several years up and down the country, i have witnessed the management side incapable or reluctant to make decisions, and then you end up with delays and nothing much happens. it seems to be, don't make a decision, don't get exposed, don't get sacked, don't lose your pension, just sit on your hands and it will be fine. that costs billions. on the other side of the coin, the billions that have

been spent on these so—called wonderful computer systems amaze me because if you walk up and down any hospital in the country you will see somebody pushing a small trolley crammed full of files of paper. there is still lots of paper. yes, wh ? there is still lots of paper. yes, why? because _ there is still lots of paper. yes, why? because it _ there is still lots of paper. yes, why? because it should - there is still lots of paper. yes, why? because it should all - there is still lots of paper. yes, why? because it should all be l there is still lots of paper. is: why? because it should all be on the computer. it'sjust why? because it should all be on the computer. it's just another cost for no good reason. we have already paid for the technology so why is it not being used?— for the technology so why is it not being used? there's a lot of trees. i couldn't agree _ being used? there's a lot of trees. i couldn't agree more _ being used? there's a lot of trees. i couldn't agree more about - being used? there's a lot of trees. i couldn't agree more about the it| i couldn't agree more about the it and we _ i couldn't agree more about the it and we suffer back pain everyday. if and we suffer back pain everyday. if it is at and we suffer back pain everyday. it is at all and we suffer back pain everyday. if it is at all possible, and i don't know how it would work, but to leave the good and clinical side alone and privatise the management side so people are accountable and such that decisions get made and such that money gets saved, then happy days. i just wish that were possible. here

is the interesting _ just wish that were possible. here is the interesting thing _ just wish that were possible. here is the interesting thing about the managers in the nhs. we love to hate them but _ managers in the nhs. we love to hate them but actually for an organisation of the size it is, around — organisation of the size it is, around 15— organisation of the size it is, around 1.5 million people, we are very under— around 1.5 million people, we are very under managed with less than 2% of the _ very under managed with less than 2% of the budget spent on managers. actuaiiy— of the budget spent on managers. actually they need enough capacity to do these things. you are absolutely right, i think, there are things— absolutely right, i think, there are things that — absolutely right, i think, there are things that work very badly, i scream — things that work very badly, i scream at _ things that work very badly, i scream at the it every day, and it should _ scream at the it every day, and it should do— scream at the it every day, and it should do better. but it is not actually — should do better. but it is not actually true that we have too many managers — actually true that we have too many managers. there are too few. it is very— managers. there are too few. it is very easy— managers. there are too few. it is very easy to— managers. there are too few. it is very easy to say, and i know you are not doing _ very easy to say, and i know you are not doing this, that we need less managers — not doing this, that we need less managers and more doctors. we do actually— managers and more doctors. we do actually need moored managers as weii~ _ actually need moored managers as weii~ but— actually need moored managers as well. but you are right, particularly when it comes to it it needs— particularly when it comes to it it needs improving and that's part of the solution.— the solution. thank you to george and thank you. — the solution. thank you to george and thank you, everyone. - the solution. thank you to george and thank you, everyone. three i and thank you, everyone. three dentures was an original idea that was withdrawn, we mentioned that

earlier. in 19118 the state of the nation's health was in worse state than occupied germany at the time. more than three quarters of the population over 19 had complete dentures and in the first few months of its existence the nhs was providing millions of teeth. our teeth have got better, have they? dental service is a big part of this. have our teeth got better, they look real.— they look real. they are mostly real. dental— they look real. they are mostly real. dental services _ they look real. they are mostly real. dental services is - they look real. they are mostly real. dental services is an - real. dental services is an interesting case and not my expert area~ _ interesting case and not my expert area but _ interesting case and not my expert area. but we have had good nhs dentistry— area. but we have had good nhs dentistry in the past and now we have _ dentistry in the past and now we have a _ dentistry in the past and now we have a situation where the supply of nhs dentists is very poor because they are _ nhs dentists is very poor because they are insufficiently supported on that side _ they are insufficiently supported on that side so most of them are moving to the _ that side so most of them are moving to the private side. you that side so most of them are moving to the private side.— to the private side. you should have heard the phone _ to the private side. you should have heard the phone in. _ to the private side. you should have heard the phone in. dentistry - to the private side. you should have

heard the phone in. dentistry is - to the private side. you should have heard the phone in. dentistry is a i heard the phone in. dentistry is a zood heard the phone in. dentistry is a good example — heard the phone in. dentistry is a good example in _ heard the phone in. dentistry is a good example in respect - heard the phone in. dentistry is a good example in respect to - good example in respect to prevention. ourteeth good example in respect to prevention. our teeth are immeasurably better than they were and the reason is fluoride in toothpaste and in the water supply. it is to do with prevention. that's a lot easier to organise with respect to dentistry because you are providing it through those two main sources. nevertheless it makes the basic point that a lot of the solutions to the nhs lie outside the nhs.— outside the nhs. thank you. i remember — outside the nhs. thank you. i remember fondly _ outside the nhs. thank you. i remember fondly my - outside the nhs. thank you. i i remember fondly my grandfather durning with them and making shapes with his mouth with his dentures. a fun childhood memory and i always laugh. the nhs at 75. will it make 100? get in touch.

time for the news from richard foster. a service involving 1500 health workers will be held at westminster abbey later, to mark the 75th anniversary of the nhs. but three leading think tanks have warned that the health service won't reach its centenary without significant investment in new beds and buildings. the water regulator says investors in thames water appear to be reluctant to make more funds available. ofwat�*s chief executive, david black, has been speaking to the bbc about the company's debt, which currently stands at around £14 billion. hundreds of ticket offices are expected to be closed at railway stations in england. operators want to press ahead with the plans, and a consultation will be announced later. unions oppose the idea. sexual harassment and violence are still a "scourge" in schools, according to a report by a group of mps. the women and equalities committee says sex education should be compulsory in sixth forms and colleges. now it's the sport withjohn bennett. britain'sjodie burrage will bennett. britain's jodie burrage will get bennett. britain'sjodie burrage will get the action under way on centre court later at wimbledon in the biggest match of her career so far, up against the 11th seed dario

kasatkina of russia. novak djokovic and iga swiatek are the headline acts on centre court after that but on the outside courts they are playing catch up after rain caused havoc for the schedule. andy murray and cam norrie are waiting to find out their second round opponents. in football, new forest green rovers caretaker manager hannah dingley says she is grateful to step up and lead such a progressive and forward—thinking club. she is the first woman to manage a professional men's team in english football. mason mount�*s move to manchester united should be officially confirmed today after he told chelsea fans on a social media video that he will be leaving chelsea. daniel farke has called for togetherness and unity after becoming leeds united manager. in the women's ashes, women to do when the women's ashes, women to do when the t20 match at the oval later to stay in with a chance of winning the series. —— in the women's ashes, england's women need to win the t20

match. its 9.38. we are talking about the nhs at 75. will it make 100? some interesting calls. it's wednesday — it's prime minister's questions from midday. the deputies will be standing in. from 10:00am i'll be joined by my panel of mps. this week it's the conservative mp for wimbledon, former health minister stephen hammond. the labour mp for nottingham north, alex norris, the shadow levelling up minister. and the snp mp for central ayrshire,

dr philippa whitford. there is a clue in doctor, a good line—up for today. so get your questions in — the nhs, railway station ticket office closures, school strikes, interest rates, "mingle and jingle" — partygate. you set the agenda, you ask the questions. get them in now. and nhs consultant and anaesthetist is with us. made a documentary, highly and thoroughly recommended from what i hear, made for bbc sounds and radio four. anthony tracy, the digital director is also with us. sophie in durham and

carolyn eccles. sophie, good morning, have your say. carolyn eccles. sophie, good morning, have yoursay. i carolyn eccles. sophie, good morning, have your say. i believe the nhs is _ morning, have your say. i believe the nhs is really _ morning, have your say. i believe the nhs is really great _ morning, have your say. i believe the nhs is really great for - the nhs is really great for emergencies, _ the nhs is really great for emergencies, really- the nhs is really great for| emergencies, really good. the nhs is really great for— emergencies, really good. however, since _ emergencies, really good. however, since aprii— emergencies, really good. however, since aprii i— emergencies, really good. however, since april i have _ emergencies, really good. however, since april i have been _ emergencies, really good. however, since april i have been fobbed - emergencies, really good. however, since april i have been fobbed off. since april i have been fobbed off by toads— since april i have been fobbed off by loads of— since april i have been fobbed off by loads of different _ since april i have been fobbed off by loads of different areas - since april i have been fobbed off by loads of different areas of - since april i have been fobbed off by loads of different areas of the | by loads of different areas of the health— by loads of different areas of the health care — by loads of different areas of the health care service _ by loads of different areas of the health care service in— by loads of different areas of the health care service in that - by loads of different areas of the health care service in that i - by loads of different areas of the health care service in that i was| health care service in that i was suffering — health care service in that i was suffering from _ health care service in that i was suffering from heartburn - health care service in that i was suffering from heartburn after. health care service in that i was i suffering from heartburn after the birth of— suffering from heartburn after the birth of my — suffering from heartburn after the birth of my baby— suffering from heartburn after the birth of my baby in— suffering from heartburn after the birth of my baby in december. - suffering from heartburn after the| birth of my baby in december. two ambulances. — birth of my baby in december. two ambulances, yeah, _ birth of my baby in december. two ambulances, yeah, you— birth of my baby in december. two ambulances, yeah, you are - birth of my baby in december. two ambulances, yeah, you are pretty| ambulances, yeah, you are pretty much _ ambulances, yeah, you are pretty much wasting _ ambulances, yeah, you are pretty much wasting time. _ ambulances, yeah, you are pretty much wasting time. ended - ambulances, yeah, you are pretty much wasting time. ended up- ambulances, yeah, you are pretty much wasting time. ended up in. ambulances, yeah, you are pretty. much wasting time. ended up in a&e for a considerable _ much wasting time. ended up in a&e for a considerable amount— much wasting time. ended up in a&e for a considerable amount of- much wasting time. ended up in a&e for a considerable amount of time i for a considerable amount of time having _ for a considerable amount of time having turned _ for a considerable amount of time having turned yellow— for a considerable amount of time having turned yellow with - for a considerable amount of time i having turned yellow with gallstones that had _ having turned yellow with gallstones that had blocked _ having turned yellow with gallstones that had blocked my— having turned yellow with gallstones that had blocked my ducts. - having turned yellow with gallstones that had blocked my ducts. i- having turned yellow with gallstones that had blocked my ducts. i was - that had blocked my ducts. i was stuck— that had blocked my ducts. i was stuck in — that had blocked my ducts. i was stuck in a — that had blocked my ducts. i was stuck in a hospital— that had blocked my ducts. i was stuck in a hospital ward - that had blocked my ducts. i was stuck in a hospital ward for- that had blocked my ducts. i was stuck in a hospital ward for a - that had blocked my ducts. i was i stuck in a hospital ward for a week because _ stuck in a hospital ward for a week because they — stuck in a hospital ward for a week because they didn't _ stuck in a hospital ward for a week because they didn't do _ stuck in a hospital ward for a week because they didn't do mri - stuck in a hospital ward for a week because they didn't do mri scans. because they didn't do mri scans over the — because they didn't do mri scans over the weekend _ because they didn't do mri scans over the weekend and _ because they didn't do mri scans over the weekend and this - because they didn't do mri scans over the weekend and this was i because they didn't do mri scans over the weekend and this was a | over the weekend and this was a saturday— over the weekend and this was a saturday morning _ over the weekend and this was a saturday morning to _ over the weekend and this was a saturday morning to stop - over the weekend and this was a i saturday morning to stop monday

morning. — saturday morning to stop monday morning, obviously— saturday morning to stop monday morning, obviously the _ saturday morning to stop monday morning, obviously the backlog, i saturday morning to stop monday i morning, obviously the backlog, and it continued — morning, obviously the backlog, and it continued throughout _ morning, obviously the backlog, and it continued throughout the - morning, obviously the backlog, and it continued throughout the week. i. it continued throughout the week. i didn't— it continued throughout the week. i didn't get— it continued throughout the week. i didn't get out — it continued throughout the week. i didn't get out until— it continued throughout the week. i didn't get out until the _ it continued throughout the week. i didn't get out until the following i didn't get out until the following saturday — didn't get out until the following saturday i— didn't get out until the following saturday. i was _ didn't get out until the following saturday. i was taking _ didn't get out until the following saturday. i was taking up - didn't get out until the following saturday. i was taking up a i didn't get out until the following saturday. i was taking up a bedl saturday. i was taking up a bed unnecessarily— saturday. i was taking up a bed unnecessarily because - saturday. i was taking up a bed unnecessarily because they- saturday. i was taking up a bed i unnecessarily because they didn't have the — unnecessarily because they didn't have the machines _ unnecessarily because they didn't have the machines and _ unnecessarily because they didn't have the machines and things i have the machines and things available _ have the machines and things available to— have the machines and things available to help _ have the machines and things available to help and - have the machines and things| available to help and support. have the machines and things i available to help and support. i had the mri. _ available to help and support. i had the mri. didn't— available to help and support. i had the mri, didn't get— available to help and support. i had the mri, didn't get any— available to help and support. i had the mri, didn't get any results, i the mri, didn't get any results, don't _ the mri, didn't get any results, don't really— the mri, didn't get any results, don't really know— the mri, didn't get any results, don't really know what - the mri, didn't get any results, i don't really know what happened the mri, didn't get any results, - don't really know what happened with that. don't really know what happened with that luckily— don't really know what happened with that. luci

mri scan was two weeks ago. goodness me. i think moving forward _ mri scan was two weeks ago. goodness me. i think moving forward any - me. i think moving forward any furtherjob _ me. i think moving forward any furtherjob i — me. i think moving forward any furtherjob i go _ me. i think moving forward any furtherjob i go for— me. i think moving forward any furtherjob i go for i _ me. i think moving forward any furtherjob i go for i look- me. i think moving forward any furtherjob i go for i look to i me. i think moving forward anyj furtherjob i go for i look to see if there — furtherjob i go for i look to see if there is— furtherjob i go for i look to see if there is private _ furtherjob i go for i look to see if there is private medical- furtherjob i go for i look to see if there is private medical carel furtherjob i go for i look to see i if there is private medical care as part of— if there is private medical care as part of the — if there is private medical care as part of the employee _ if there is private medical care as part of the employee package. i if there is private medical care as i part of the employee package. may if there is private medical care as i part of the employee package. hazel part of the employee package. may i ask, do part of the employee package. may i ask. do you — part of the employee package. may i ask. do you know— part of the employee package. may i ask, do you know how _ part of the employee package. may i ask, do you know how much - part of the employee package. ii;i- i ask, do you know how much it part of the employee package.- ask, do you know how much it costs, the private care, through interest? me being extra on my husband... he -ets me being extra on my husband... he gets it _ me being extra on my husband... he gets it free _ me being extra on my husband... he gets it free through _ me being extra on my husband... he gets it free through work _ me being extra on my husband... he gets it free through work but - me being extra on my husband... he gets it free through work but for i me being extra on my husband... he gets it free through work but for mei gets it free through work but for me and my— gets it free through work but for me and my baby— gets it free through work but for me and my baby to— gets it free through work but for me and my baby to be— gets it free through work but for me and my baby to be included - gets it free through work but for me and my baby to be included it - gets it free through work but for me and my baby to be included it is i and my baby to be included it is something _ and my baby to be included it is something like _ and my baby to be included it is something like an _ and my baby to be included it is something like an extra - and my baby to be included it is something like an extra £22- and my baby to be included it is something like an extra £22 per month — something like an extra £22 per month for— something like an extra £22 per month for us— something like an extra £22 per month. for us it _ something like an extra £22 per month. for us it works - something like an extra £22 per month. for us it works out i something like an extra £22 per month. for us it works out that| month. for us it works out that instead — month. for us it works out that instead of— month. for us it works out that instead of waiting _ month. for us it works out that instead of waiting two - month. for us it works out that instead of waiting two years - month. for us it works out that instead of waiting two years to| month. for us it works out that. instead of waiting two years to be seen _ instead of waiting two years to be seen to _ instead of waiting two years to be seen to get— instead of waiting two years to be seen to get my— instead of waiting two years to be seen to get my dangerous - instead of waiting two years to be seen to get my dangerous gall. seen to get my dangerous gall bladder— seen to get my dangerous gall bladder removed, _ seen to get my dangerous gall bladder removed, and - seen to get my dangerous gall bladder removed, and i- seen to get my dangerous galli bladder removed, and i turned seen to get my dangerous gall - bladder removed, and i turned yellow and had _ bladder removed, and i turned yellow and had jaundice, _ bladder removed, and i turned yellow and hadjaundice, i— bladder removed, and i turned yellow and had jaundice, i would _ bladder removed, and i turned yellow and had jaundice, iwould have - bladder removed, and i turned yellow and had jaundice, iwould have been. and had jaundice, iwould have been waiting _ and had jaundice, iwould have been waiting two— and had jaundice, iwould have been waiting two years _ and had jaundice, iwould have been waiting two years to _ and had jaundice, iwould have been waiting two years to have _ and had jaundice, iwould have been waiting two years to have it - and hadjaundice, iwould have been| waiting two years to have it removed and by— waiting two years to have it removed and by that— waiting two years to have it removed and by that point— waiting two years to have it removed and by that point i_ waiting two years to have it removed and by that point i could _ waiting two years to have it removed and by that point i could have - waiting two years to have it removed and by that point i could have had i and by that point i could have had another— and by that point i could have had another stone _ and by that point i could have had another stone dislodge _ and by that point i could have had another stone dislodge or- and by that point i could have had . another stone dislodge or whatever. for me _ another stone dislodge or whatever. for me we _ another stone dislodge or whatever. for me we are — another stone dislodge or whatever. for me we are missing _ another stone dislodge or whatever. for me we are missing part - another stone dislodge or whatever. for me we are missing part of- another stone dislodge or whatever. for me we are missing part of the l for me we are missing part of the conversation _ for me we are missing part of the conversation in _ for me we are missing part of the conversation in terms _ for me we are missing part of the conversation in terms of - for me we are missing part of the conversation in terms of what - for me we are missing part of the conversation in terms of what are| conversation in terms of what are other— conversation in terms of what are other creative _ conversation in terms of what are other creative ideas— conversation in terms of what are other creative ideas we _ conversation in terms of what are other creative ideas we can - conversation in terms of what are other creative ideas we can comej conversation in terms of what are i other creative ideas we can come up with to _ other creative ideas we can come up with to help— other creative ideas we can come up with to help the _ other creative ideas we can come up with to help the nhs. _

other creative ideas we can come up with to help the nhs. lets— other creative ideas we can come up with to help the nhs.— with to help the nhs. lets bring anthony in _ with to help the nhs. lets bring anthony in on — with to help the nhs. lets bring anthony in on that. _ with to help the nhs. lets bring anthony in on that. more - with to help the nhs. lets bring| anthony in on that. more people with to help the nhs. lets bring - anthony in on that. more people are using private health care for reasons that are obvious. some people are really pushing the boat out financially on it. also something sophie said about there not being a bed for her.— something sophie said about there not being a bed for her. thank you. can i 'ust not being a bed for her. thank you. can ijust clarify. — not being a bed for her. thank you. can ijust clarify, there _ not being a bed for her. thank you. can i just clarify, there was - not being a bed for her. thank you. can i just clarify, there was a - not being a bed for her. thank you. can i just clarify, there was a bed i can ijust clarify, there was a bed for me _ can ijust clarify, there was a bed for me i— can ijust clarify, there was a bed for me itook— can ijust clarify, there was a bed for me. i took up _ can ijust clarify, there was a bed for me. i took up a _ can ijust clarify, there was a bed for me. i took up a bed _ can ijust clarify, there was a bed for me. i took up a bed for- can ijust clarify, there was a bed for me. i took up a bed for a - can ijust clarify, there was a bed i for me. i took up a bed for a week. there _ for me. i took up a bed for a week. there was— for me. i took up a bed for a week. there was a — for me. i took up a bed for a week. there was a bed, _ for me. i took up a bed for a week. there was a bed, and _ for me. i took up a bed for a week. there was a bed, and there - for me. i took up a bed for a week. there was a bed, and there were . there was a bed, and there were sbare _ there was a bed, and there were sbare beds— there was a bed, and there were spare beds on— there was a bed, and there were spare beds on the _ there was a bed, and there were spare beds on the ward. - there was a bed, and there were spare beds on the ward. [- spare beds on the ward. misunderstood, sorry spare beds on the ward." misunderstood, sorry about spare beds on the ward._ misunderstood, sorry about that. just wanted to clarify that. hater? just wanted to clarify that. very im ortant just wanted to clarify that. very important to — just wanted to clarify that. very important to do _ just wanted to clarify that. very important to do that. _ just wanted to clarify that. very important to do that. it - just wanted to clarify that. very important to do that. it is - just wanted to clarify that. very important to do that. it is a - important to do that. it is a situation with beds. can you address that bed point. and i hate the phrase bed blocking. it is so demeaning. you hear it a lot. it is demeaning. you hear it a lot. it is a dreadful— demeaning. you hear it a lot. it is a dreadful phrase. _ demeaning. you hear it a lot. it is

a dreadful phrase. anthony, - demeaning. you hear it a lot. it is| a dreadful phrase. anthony, come demeaning. you hear it a lot. it is i a dreadful phrase. anthony, come in on the bed situation. _ a dreadful phrase. anthony, come in on the bed situation. definitely, - a dreadful phrase. anthony, come in on the bed situation. definitely, i. on the bed situation. definitely, i think we are _ on the bed situation. definitely, i think we are aware _ on the bed situation. definitely, i think we are aware that _ on the bed situation. definitely, i think we are aware that the - on the bed situation. definitely, i think we are aware that the flowl on the bed situation. definitely, i l think we are aware that the flow of patients through the nhs as it is is very difficult. i think once it gets blocked at the back, the front gets blocked at the back, the front gets blocked and we are in a situation where beds have unnecessarily got patients in them who can't go home. talking from a clinical perspective, i will let colleagues do that, but from a digital perspective, how digital systems could and will improve the flow of patients through the system. i know you probably talked about it earlier, and i caught a bit of it around it systems etc, talking to each other and how they all link together, i think that is probably a key point that we as digital technicians and digital leaders have to consider about how we can link these systems together properly to stop things like scans taking four or five days to report.

we have seen the research around artificial intelligence and we can help ourselves towards that and have ai algorithms that can report on scans and diagnostics. from a future perspective, we need to harness these things and the more that can be reduced, these wasteful times in hospital for people, the be reduced, these wasteful times in hospitalfor people, the better the outcomes and the quicker we can get people back home and then the benefit is we can reduce the number of people's stays in hospital and get people flowing through the hospital system. you get people flowing through the hospital system.— get people flowing through the hospital system. get people flowing through the hosital s stem. ., hospital system. you need in the it s stem hospital system. you need in the it system that — hospital system. you need in the it system that works. _ hospital system. you need in the it system that works. we _ hospital system. you need in the it system that works. we do - hospital system. you need in the it system that works. we do need - hospital system. you need in the it system that works. we do need an | hospital system. you need in the it i system that works. we do need an it s stem system that works. we do need an it system that — system that works. we do need an it system that can _ system that works. we do need an it system that can actually _ system that works. we do need an it system that can actually integrate . system that can actually integrate all these things together, yes. i think nhs wales, i can't talk for england, but in wales who are progressing towards that. we have put quite a lot of effort particularly around things like the welsh nursing record, an electronic

nursing record. and also looking at how we can lick radiology and pathology together. so all the information required for clinicians to do theirjob is at their fingertips rather than having to log in numerous times which i know is a particular frustration, to get the information to make a decision. the whole point is to make decisions quickly and safely and in a timely manner that allows patients to move through the system. i manner that allows patients to move through the system.— through the system. i would love to see the future _ through the system. i would love to see the future in _ through the system. i would love to see the future in which _ through the system. i would love to see the future in which we - through the system. i would love to see the future in which we have - through the system. i would love to see the future in which we have an l see the future in which we have an it see the future in which we have an it system — see the future in which we have an it system that keeps pace with the it system that keeps pace with the it system — it system that keeps pace with the it system that keeps pace with the it system that you have on your phone — it system that you have on your phone the _ it system that you have on your phone. the disparity between what we have in _ phone. the disparity between what we have in the _ phone. the disparity between what we have in the nhs and in your pocket is enormous. part of the solution. we need — is enormous. part of the solution. we need to— is enormous. part of the solution. we need to be careful not to play it as a nragic— we need to be careful not to play it as a magic one that will solve everything. it is not the only solution _ everything. it is not the only solution. we have been trying to say that in— solution. we have been trying to say that in the _ solution. we have been trying to say that in the document, it is complex. to come _ that in the document, it is complex. to come back to sophie's case, i don't _ to come back to sophie's case, i don't know— to come back to sophie's case, i don't know the details of it but i am sorry— don't know the details of it but i am sorry you had that experience. but fundamental to her story is one of the _ but fundamental to her story is one of the measures we have of the

health— of the measures we have of the health service compared to other health— health service compared to other health services is the number of ct scanners, — health services is the number of ct scanners, mri scanners, the numbers of diagnostic— scanners, mri scanners, the numbers of diagnostic scanners, and we are well down — of diagnostic scanners, and we are well down the league table in that and sophie has suffered the consequences of the lack of available imaging and capacity in the service because of what has happened in the last ten years and since _ happened in the last ten years and since covid — happened in the last ten years and since covid— happened in the last ten years and since covid. thank you. you can go to carol in — since covid. thank you. you can go to carol in eccles _ since covid. thank you. you can go to carol in eccles in _ since covid. thank you. you can go to carol in eccles in manchester. i to carol in eccles in manchester. hello. ., i to carol in eccles in manchester. hello-_ i will- to carol in eccles in manchester. hello._ i will be i hello. good morning. iwill be forever grateful _ hello. good morning. iwill be forever grateful to _ hello. good morning. iwill be forever grateful to salford - forever grateful to salford hospital, the big one, for treating me with my kidney stones. they were absolutely amazing. not far from you. absolutely amazing. not far from ou. ., . absolutely amazing. not far from 0“. ., ., ., absolutely amazing. not far from yom— what _ absolutely amazing. not far from yom— what do - absolutely amazing. not far from you._ what do you - absolutely amazing. not far from | you._ what do you think you. not at all. what do you think about this. _ you. not at all. what do you think about this, the _ you. not at all. what do you think about this, the nhs, _ you. not at all. what do you think about this, the nhs, will- you. not at all. what do you think about this, the nhs, will it - you. not at all. what do you think about this, the nhs, will it make | about this, the nhs, will it make 100? i about this, the nhs, will it make 100? ., �* ~ ., ., �* ~ ., about this, the nhs, will it make 100? ~ ., ~ ., g 100? i don't know, i don't know. my oint is, 100? i don't know, i don't know. my point is. and — 100? i don't know, i don't know. my point is, and this _ 100? i don't know, i don't know. my point is, and this is _ 100? i don't know, i don't know. my point is, and this is vary, _ 100? i don't know, i don't know. my point is, and this is vary, and - 100? i don't know, i don't know. my point is, and this is vary, and how i point is, and this is vary, and how can i_ point is, and this is vary, and how can i put— point is, and this is vary, and how can i put this, _ point is, and this is vary, and how can i put this, this— point is, and this is vary, and how can i put this, this is— point is, and this is vary, and how can i put this, this is a _ point is, and this is vary, and how can i put this, this is a very- can i put this, this is a very heartfett _ can i put this, this is a very heartfelt point _ can i put this, this is a very heartfelt point am -

can i put this, this is a very heartfelt point am trying i can i put this, this is a very heartfelt point am trying to can i put this, this is a very- heartfelt point am trying to put across~ — heartfelt point am trying to put across in _ heartfelt point am trying to put across. i'm speaking _ heartfelt point am trying to put across. i'm speaking from - heartfelt point am trying to put - across. i'm speaking from personal experience — across. i'm speaking from personal experience at — across. i'm speaking from personal experience at the _ across. i'm speaking from personal experience at the moment. - across. i'm speaking from personal experience at the moment. my- across. i'm speaking from personal. experience at the moment. my mum across. i'm speaking from personal- experience at the moment. my mum is in a care _ experience at the moment. my mum is in a care home — experience at the moment. my mum is in a care home. she _ experience at the moment. my mum is in a care home. she has— experience at the moment. my mum is in a care home. she has advanced - in a care home. she has advanced dementia — in a care home. she has advanced dementia she— in a care home. she has advanced dementia. she doesn't— in a care home. she has advanced dementia. she doesn't recognisei in a care home. she has advanced i dementia. she doesn't recognise me or my— dementia. she doesn't recognise me or my family. — dementia. she doesn't recognise me or my family. she _ dementia. she doesn't recognise me or my family, she has _ dementia. she doesn't recognise me or my family, she has no _ dementia. she doesn't recognise me or my family, she has no quality- dementia. she doesn't recognise me or my family, she has no quality of l or my family, she has no quality of life. or my family, she has no quality of life what — or my family, she has no quality of life what i'm _ or my family, she has no quality of life. what i'm trying _ or my family, she has no quality of life. what i'm trying to _ or my family, she has no quality of life. what i'm trying to say - or my family, she has no quality of life. what i'm trying to say is i or my family, she has no quality of life. what i'm trying to say is that. life. what i'm trying to say is that i'll life. what i'm trying to say is that i'tt be _ life. what i'm trying to say is that i'tt be keeping _ life. what i'm trying to say is that i'll be keeping people _ life. what i'm trying to say is that i'll be keeping people alive - life. what i'm trying to say is that| i'll be keeping people alive that... i'll be keeping people alive that... i don't _ i'll be keeping people alive that... i don't know— i'll be keeping people alive that... i don't know how— i'll be keeping people alive that... i don't know how to _ i'll be keeping people alive that... i don't know how to say— i'll be keeping people alive that... i don't know how to say it. - i'll be keeping people alive that... i don't know how to say it. with i i'll be keeping people alive that... i i don't know how to say it. with the advanced _ i don't know how to say it. with the advanced technology, _ i don't know how to say it. with the advanced technology, 20 _ i don't know how to say it. with the advanced technology, 20 years i i don't know how to say it. with the advanced technology, 20 years ago| advanced technology, 20 years ago they would — advanced technology, 20 years ago they woutd not— advanced technology, 20 years ago they would not be _ advanced technology, 20 years ago they would not be alive. _ advanced technology, 20 years ago they would not be alive. they i advanced technology, 20 years ago they would not be alive. they have| they would not be alive. they have no guatity — they would not be alive. they have no quality of — they would not be alive. they have no quality of life, _ they would not be alive. they have no quality of life, it _ they would not be alive. they have no quality of life, it is _ they would not be alive. they have no quality of life, it is expensive i no quality of life, it is expensive on the _ no quality of life, it is expensive on the nhs _ no quality of life, it is expensive on the nhs and _ no quality of life, it is expensive on the nhs and the _ no quality of life, it is expensive on the nhs and the families. i i no quality of life, it is expensive i on the nhs and the families. i pay £1200 _ on the nhs and the families. i pay £1200 per— on the nhs and the families. i pay £1200 per month _ on the nhs and the families. i pay £1200 per month out _ on the nhs and the families. i pay £1200 per month out of _ on the nhs and the families. i pay £1200 per month out of my- on the nhs and the families. i pay £1200 per month out of my own i on the nhs and the families. i pay- £1200 per month out of my own money to keep _ £1200 per month out of my own money to keep my— £1200 per month out of my own money to keep my mum — £1200 per month out of my own money to keep my mum in— £1200 per month out of my own money to keep my mum in a _ £1200 per month out of my own money to keep my mum in a care _ £1200 per month out of my own money to keep my mum in a care home. - £1200 per month out of my own money to keep my mum in a care home. i'm i to keep my mum in a care home. i'm not saying— to keep my mum in a care home. i'm not saying she — to keep my mum in a care home. i'm not saying she isn't _ to keep my mum in a care home. i'm not saying she isn't getting _ to keep my mum in a care home. i'm not saying she isn't getting good i not saying she isn't getting good care, _ not saying she isn't getting good care, because _ not saying she isn't getting good care, because she _ not saying she isn't getting good care, because she is. _ not saying she isn't getting good care, because she is. but - not saying she isn't getting good care, because she is. but i i not saying she isn't getting good care, because she is. but i am i care, because she is. but i am trying — care, because she is. but i am trying to— care, because she is. but i am trying to say, _ care, because she is. but i am trying to say, we _ care, because she is. but i am trying to say, we have - care, because she is. but i am trying to say, we have to i care, because she is. but i am trying to say, we have to think care, because she is. but i am i trying to say, we have to think on future _ trying to say, we have to think on future care, — trying to say, we have to think on future care, what's— trying to say, we have to think on future care, what's the _ trying to say, we have to think on future care, what's the way- trying to say, we have to think on i future care, what's the way forward. i future care, what's the way forward. i know _ future care, what's the way forward. i know this _ future care, what's the way forward. i know this will _ future care, what's the way forward. i know this will bring _ future care, what's the way forward. i know this will bring up _ future care, what's the way forward. i know this will bring up a _ future care, what's the way forward. i know this will bring up a lot - future care, what's the way forward. i know this will bring up a lot of- i know this will bring up a lot of emotions — i know this will bring up a lot of emotions in _ i know this will bring up a lot of emotions in people _ i know this will bring up a lot of emotions in people but- i know this will bring up a lot of emotions in people but i'm i i know this will bring up a lot of. emotions in people but i'm trying i know this will bring up a lot of- emotions in people but i'm trying to -et emotions in people but i'm trying to get that— emotions in people but i'm trying to

get that point — emotions in people but i'm trying to get that point across. _ emotions in people but i'm trying to get that point across. iirilt�*iith - emotions in people but i'm trying to get that point across.— get that point across. with an auuein get that point across. with an ageing population. _ get that point across. with an ageing population. my- get that point across. with an ageing population. my mum i get that point across. with an | ageing population. my mum is get that point across. with an i ageing population. my mum is 80. get that point across. with an - ageing population. my mum is 80. she doesnt ageing population. my mum is 80. she doesn't recognise _ ageing population. my mum is 80. she doesn't recognise any _ ageing population. my mum is 80. she doesn't recognise any of— ageing population. my mum is 80. she doesn't recognise any of us. _ ageing population. my mum is 80. she doesn't recognise any of us. my - ageing population. my mum is 80. she doesn't recognise any of us. my dad i doesn't recognise any of us. my dad has severe — doesn't recognise any of us. my dad has severe heart _ doesn't recognise any of us. my dad has severe heart failure _ doesn't recognise any of us. my dad has severe heart failure and - doesn't recognise any of us. my dad has severe heart failure and is i has severe heart failure and is brokenhearted _ has severe heart failure and is brokenhearted about- has severe heart failure and is brokenhearted about my - has severe heart failure and is| brokenhearted about my mum. has severe heart failure and is - brokenhearted about my mum. he can't afford _ brokenhearted about my mum. he can't afford to— brokenhearted about my mum. he can't afford to contribute. _ brokenhearted about my mum. he can't afford to contribute. to _ brokenhearted about my mum. he can't afford to contribute. to put _ brokenhearted about my mum. he can't afford to contribute. to put someone i afford to contribute. to put someone in a care _ afford to contribute. to put someone in a care home — afford to contribute. to put someone in a care home is _ afford to contribute. to put someone in a care home is expensive. - afford to contribute. to put someone in a care home is expensive. it- afford to contribute. to put someone in a care home is expensive. it is- in a care home is expensive. it is expensive — in a care home is expensive. it is expensive for _ in a care home is expensive. it is expensive for the _ in a care home is expensive. it is expensive for the nhs, - in a care home is expensive. it is expensive for the nhs, for- in a care home is expensive. it is expensive for the nhs, for social care and — expensive for the nhs, for social care and for— expensive for the nhs, for social care and for the _ expensive for the nhs, for social care and for the families. - expensive for the nhs, for social care and for the families. i'm - care and for the families. i'm talking — care and for the families. i'm talking about _ care and for the families. i'm talking about advanced - care and for the families. i'm - talking about advanced dementia, not early-onset — talking about advanced dementia, not early-onset i'm — talking about advanced dementia, not early—onset. i'm talking _ talking about advanced dementia, not early—onset. i'm talking about - talking about advanced dementia, not early—onset. i'm talking about wherel early—onset. i'm talking about where they have _ early—onset. i'm talking about where they have no — early—onset. i'm talking about where they have no quality _ early—onset. i'm talking about where they have no quality of _ early—onset. i'm talking about where they have no quality of life, - early—onset. i'm talking about where they have no quality of life, they - they have no quality of life, they can't _ they have no quality of life, they can't feed — they have no quality of life, they can't feed themselves _ they have no quality of life, they can't feed themselves or - they have no quality of life, they can't feed themselves or talk - they have no quality of life, they can't feed themselves or talk to| can't feed themselves or talk to their— can't feed themselves or talk to their families. _ can't feed themselves or talk to their families. when— can't feed themselves or talk to their families. when the - can't feed themselves or talk toi their families. when the families can't feed themselves or talk to - their families. when the families go and see _ their families. when the families go and see them, — their families. when the families go and see them, they— their families. when the families go and see them, they get _ their families. when the families go and see them, they get upset. - their families. when the families go l and see them, they get upset. what's the way— and see them, they get upset. what's the way forward — and see them, they get upset. what's the way forward here? _ and see them, they get upset. what's the way forward here? [— and see them, they get upset. what's the way forward here? lamu _ and see them, they get upset. what's the way forward here?— the way forward here? i am so sorry to hear about _ the way forward here? i am so sorry to hear about your _ the way forward here? i am so sorry to hear about your mum. _ the way forward here? i am so sorry to hear about your mum. there - the way forward here? i am so sorry to hear about your mum. there will| to hear about your mum. there will be lots of people in your position and in your mum bus situation and your dad. my thoughts are with him, it is a medical and ethical minefield. what would you to see happening ideally?—

minefield. what would you to see happening ideally? ideally i would like to see better— happening ideally? ideally i would like to see better end _ happening ideally? ideally i would like to see better end of - happening ideally? ideally i would like to see better end of life - happening ideally? ideally i would like to see better end of life care. | like to see better end of life care. a better _ like to see better end of life care. a better way _ like to see better end of life care. a better way of _ like to see better end of life care. a better way of may— like to see better end of life care. a better way of may be _ like to see better end of life care. a better way of may be talking. like to see better end of life care. i a better way of may be talking with families _ a better way of may be talking with families when — a better way of may be talking with families when they _ a better way of may be talking with families when they go _ a better way of may be talking with families when they go into - a better way of may be talking with families when they go into care - families when they go into care homes, — families when they go into care homes, that— families when they go into care homes, that they _ families when they go into care homes, that they get _ families when they go into care homes, that they get an - families when they go into care i homes, that they get an advanced care plan— homes, that they get an advanced care plan written. _ homes, that they get an advanced care plan written. letting - homes, that they get an advanced care plan written. letting them i homes, that they get an advanced | care plan written. letting them die with dignity. — care plan written. letting them die with dignity, either— care plan written. letting them die with dignity, either in— care plan written. letting them die with dignity, either in a _ care plan written. letting them die with dignity, either in a care - care plan written. letting them die with dignity, either in a care home| with dignity, either in a care home or at— with dignity, either in a care home or at home — with dignity, either in a care home orat home in _ with dignity, either in a care home orat home. i'm not— with dignity, either in a care home or at home. i'm not talking - with dignity, either in a care home or at home. i'm not talking abouti or at home. i'm not talking about somebody— or at home. i'm not talking about somebody that's _ or at home. i'm not talking about somebody that's got _ or at home. i'm not talking about somebody that's got mild - or at home. i'm not talking about. somebody that's got mild dementia, i'm somebody that's got mild dementia, in talking _ somebody that's got mild dementia, in talking at — somebody that's got mild dementia, i'm talking at the _ somebody that's got mild dementia, i'm talking at the end _ somebody that's got mild dementia, i'm talking at the end stage - somebody that's got mild dementia, i'm talking at the end stage of- i'm talking at the end stage of dementia _ i'm talking at the end stage of dementia-— i'm talking at the end stage of dementia. , ., .. dementia. yes, end-of-life care. goodness — dementia. yes, end-of-life care. goodness me. — dementia. yes, end-of-life care. goodness me, just _ dementia. yes, end-of-life care. goodness me, just starting - dementia. yes, end-of-life care. goodness me, just starting this l goodness me, just starting this conversation this morning i am realising all the things we could talk about for hours and hours, the many aspects. dental treatment, talk about for hours and hours, the many aspects. dentaltreatment, end of life care, bureaucracy, beds,

waiting lists. my goodness me that “p waiting lists. my goodness me that up more i speak the less time we have to talk about those things. end—of—life care, there is the principle of double effect i remember that, principle of double effect i rememberthat, kevin, you principle of double effect i remember that, kevin, you treat somebody and take away their pain, but by taking away their pain, the drugs can ease their way. can you address that difficult point from carol. it address that difficult point from carol. . address that difficult point from carol. , ., , address that difficult point from carol. ,., , . . carol. it is not my specialist area but i will carol. it is not my specialist area but i willtry- _ carol. it is not my specialist area but | will try. what _ carol. it is not my specialist area but i will try. what has _ carol. it is not my specialist area but i will try. what has changed l carol. it is not my specialist areal but i will try. what has changed in my life as a doctor is we have recognised palliative care in its own right and made leaps and bounds in providing that care at the end of life. all of these situations are extremely difficult and i know from personal experience. end—of—life care now is much more sophisticated thanit care now is much more sophisticated than it was even when i started medicine 25 years ago but we still have a long way to go, as you can hear. . ~ have a long way to go, as you can hear. . ,, , ., have a long way to go, as you can hear. . ,, i. ,., have a long way to go, as you can hear. . ,, i. . .

have a long way to go, as you can hear. . ,, . . ., hear. thank you so much. we can go to halifax and _ hear. thank you so much. we can go to halifax and speak _ hear. thank you so much. we can go to halifax and speak to _ hear. thank you so much. we can go to halifax and speak to catcher- to halifax and speak to catcher sherry. arthur in ashbourne, hello. the nhs, your thoughts, will it make 100? yes, no doubt about it.— your thoughts, will it make 100? yes, no doubt about it. thank you very much- _ yes, no doubt about it. thank you very much. next _ yes, no doubt about it. thank you very much. next call! _ yes, no doubt about it. thank you very much. next call! i— yes, no doubt about it. thank you very much. next call! i think - yes, no doubt about it. thank you very much. next call! i think so i very much. next call! i think so too, b very much. next call! i think so too. by the _ very much. next call! i think so too. by the way- _ very much. next call! i think so too, by the way. in _ very much. next call! i think so too, by the way. in the - very much. next call! i think so too, by the way. in the currentl too, by the way. in the current form? what — too, by the way. in the current form? what needs _ too, by the way. in the current form? what needs to - too, by the way. in the current form? what needs to change, | too, by the way. in the current - form? what needs to change, arthur and what needs to evolve question green i think your earlier caller hit the nail on the head, management. they have no experience of a hospital run environment. they just have your run—of—the—mill office skills. so i believe that the system as it was many years ago

where the management came from within the hospital staff, your matron went on to manage a ward, whatever. then progressed. i think that's the system we should be looking at. was that the caller earlier who said we need to have a division, a by vocation, that we need to maybe look at privatising management? ihla need to maybe look at privatising management?— need to maybe look at privatising manauement? ., ., �* ., management? no com you don't need to rivatise management? no com you don't need to privatise them- — management? no com you don't need to privatise them. you _ management? no com you don't need to privatise them. you need _ management? no com you don't need to privatise them. you need to _ management? no com you don't need to privatise them. you need to make - privatise them. you need to make sure they— privatise them. you need to make sure they grow— privatise them. you need to make sure they grow within _ privatise them. you need to make sure they grow within the - sure they grow within the environment. _ sure they grow within the environment. so- sure they grow within the environment. so you - sure they grow within the environment. so you can| sure they grow within the - environment. so you can promote sure they grow within the _ environment. so you can promote from within _ environment. so you can promote from within that— environment. so you can promote from within that way— environment. so you can promote from within. that way they _ environment. so you can promote from within. that way they know— environment. so you can promote from within. that way they know the - environment. so you can promote from within. that way they know the job - within. that way they know the job from _ within. that way they know the job from the _ within. that way they know the job from the ground _ within. that way they know the job from the ground up. _ within. that way they know the job from the ground up. whereas- within. that way they know the job . from the ground up. whereas people 'ust from the ground up. whereas people just come _ from the ground up. whereas people just come from — from the ground up. whereas people just come from university— from the ground up. whereas people just come from university with - from the ground up. whereas people just come from university with no - just come from university with no life experience _ just come from university with no life experience at _ just come from university with no life experience at all _ just come from university with no life experience at all and - just come from university with no life experience at all and go - life experience at all and go straight _ life experience at all and go straight into— life experience at all and go straight into a _ life experience at all and go straight into a position - life experience at all and go straight into a position of i life experience at all and go - straight into a position of import and take — straight into a position of import and take responsibility - straight into a position of import and take responsibility for - straight into a position of import| and take responsibility for things where _ and take responsibility for things where they— and take responsibility for things where they have _ and take responsibility for things where they have no _ and take responsibility for things where they have no experience. i and take responsibility for things| where they have no experience. i and take responsibility for things - where they have no experience. i do auree where they have no experience. i do a . ree with where they have no experience. i do agree with you _ where they have no experience. agree with you that we need to where they have no experience.“ agree with you that we need to have managers _ agree with you that we need to have managers who intrinsically and intimately understand the health service _ intimately understand the health service but i think we have quite a

lot service but i think we have quite a tot of— service but i think we have quite a lot of diversity in the managerial workforce — lot of diversity in the managerial workforce. quite a lot of them have grown _ workforce. quite a lot of them have grown up _ workforce. quite a lot of them have grown up from the wards in a sense at very— grown up from the wards in a sense at very senior levels and many of them _ at very senior levels and many of them have — at very senior levels and many of them have spent their lives in the health— them have spent their lives in the health service. but i do agree, it is important that managers have an intimate _ is important that managers have an intimate understanding of what's happening on the front line and that is something to strive for. yes. happening on the front line and that is something to strive for.— is something to strive for. yes. i also think _ is something to strive for. yes. i also think that _ is something to strive for. yes. i also think that when _ is something to strive for. yes. i also think that when it _ is something to strive for. yes. i also think that when it comes i is something to strive for. yes. i also think that when it comes to | also think that when it comes to crisis _ also think that when it comes to crisis time, _ also think that when it comes to crisis time, management, - also think that when it comes to crisis time, management, and l also think that when it comes to crisis time, management, and i| also think that when it comes to - crisis time, management, and i don't mean _ crisis time, management, and i don't mean all— crisis time, management, and i don't mean all management _ crisis time, management, and i don't mean all management but _ crisis time, management, and i don't mean all management but there - crisis time, management, and i don't mean all management but there are| mean all management but there are certain— mean all management but there are certain people — mean all management but there are certain people who _ mean all management but there are certain people who tend _ mean all management but there are certain people who tend to - mean all management but there are certain people who tend to play- mean all management but there are certain people who tend to play the| certain people who tend to play the ostrich _ certain people who tend to play the ostrich and — certain people who tend to play the ostrich and bury— certain people who tend to play the ostrich and bury their _ certain people who tend to play the ostrich and bury their heads, - certain people who tend to play the ostrich and bury their heads, let. certain people who tend to play the ostrich and bury their heads, let iti ostrich and bury their heads, let it wash— ostrich and bury their heads, let it wash over— ostrich and bury their heads, let it wash over them. _ ostrich and bury their heads, let it wash overthem. i— ostrich and bury their heads, let it wash over them. i would - ostrich and bury their heads, let it wash over them. i would like - ostrich and bury their heads, let it| wash over them. i would like more people _ wash over them. i would like more people to — wash over them. i would like more people to take _ wash over them. i would like more people to take responsibility - wash over them. i would like more people to take responsibility for i people to take responsibility for their— people to take responsibility for their actions, _ people to take responsibility for their actions, the _ people to take responsibility for their actions, the way— people to take responsibility for their actions, the way they - people to take responsibility for their actions, the way they run. people to take responsibility for| their actions, the way they run a particular— their actions, the way they run a particular department, - their actions, the way they run a particular department, the - particular department, the hospitals _ particular department, the hospitals. anything - particular department, the hospitals. anything out - particular department, the hospitals. anything out of| particular department, the - hospitals. anything out of line, they— hospitals. anything out of line, they should _ hospitals. anything out of line, they should be _ hospitals. anything out of line, they should be made _ hospitals. anything out of line, i they should be made responsible. hospitals. anything out of line, - they should be made responsible. i didn't they should be made responsible. didn't expect to come on this and spend _ didn't expect to come on this and spend my—

didn't expect to come on this and spend my time defending managers! but i spend my time defending managers! but i do _ spend my time defending managers! but i do think they take response ability— but i do think they take response ability and are accountable. i visited — ability and are accountable. i visited many hospitals during covid and management teams were working very hard _ and management teams were working very hard doing that. there are things— very hard doing that. there are things we — very hard doing that. there are things we can do better on, but as i said before — things we can do better on, but as i said before we have not enough managers — said before we have not enough managers instead of too many and it is a very— managers instead of too many and it is a very difficult job. after managers instead of too many and it is a very difficult job.— is a very difficult 'ob. after 23 ears in is a very difficult 'ob. after 23 years in the _ is a very difficult 'ob. after 23 years in the nhs_ is a very difficult job. after 23 years in the nhs i _ is a very difficult job. after 23 years in the nhs i retired - is a very difficult job. after 23 | years in the nhs i retired four years— years in the nhs i retired four years ago _ years in the nhs i retired four years ago my— years in the nhs i retired four years ago. my involvement i years in the nhs i retired four- years ago. my involvement within management— years ago. my involvement within management has— years ago. my involvement within management has always - years ago. my involvement within management has always been - years ago. my involvement withini management has always been that years ago. my involvement within i management has always been that if you have _ management has always been that if you have an— management has always been that if you have an issue _ management has always been that if you have an issue they— management has always been that if you have an issue they will— management has always been that if you have an issue they will seem - management has always been that if you have an issue they will seem to| you have an issue they will seem to be dealing — you have an issue they will seem to be dealing with _ you have an issue they will seem to be dealing with it— you have an issue they will seem to be dealing with it but— you have an issue they will seem to be dealing with it but never- be dealing with it but never actually _ be dealing with it but never actually go _ be dealing with it but never actually go through - be dealing with it but never actually go through with . be dealing with it but never actually go through with it. | be dealing with it but never- actually go through with it. lets be dealing with it but never actually go through with it. lets go to mike in hitchen. _ actually go through with it. lets go to mike in hitchen. thank- actually go through with it. lets go to mike in hitchen. thank you - actually go through with it. lets go to mike in hitchen. thank you to i to mike in hitchen. thank you to arthur. good morning, mike. goad arthur. good morning, mike. good morninu. arthur. good morning, mike. good morning- we _ arthur. good morning, mike. good morning. we were _ arthur. good morning, mike. good morning. we were talking - arthur. good morning, mike. good morning. we were talking about i arthur. good morning, mike. goodl morning. we were talking about the germany comparison _ morning. we were talking about the germany comparison earlier. - morning. we were talking about the germany comparison earlier. i - morning. we were talking about the germany comparison earlier. i thinki germany comparison earlier. i think you have what we call a lived experience. i

you have what we call a lived experience-_ you have what we call a lived exerience. ., ., , experience. i came back two months auo and experience. i came back two months ago and m — experience. i came back two months ago and m still— experience. i came back two months ago and i'm still in _ experience. i came back two months ago and i'm still in recovery - ago and i'm still in recovery because _ ago and i'm still in recovery because it _ ago and i'm still in recovery because it was _ ago and i'm still in recovery because it was quite - ago and i'm still in recovery because it was quite a - ago and i'm still in recoveryi because it was quite a major operation _ because it was quite a major operation i _ because it was quite a major operation i had _ because it was quite a major operation i had on _ because it was quite a major operation i had on my- because it was quite a majori operation i had on my spine. because it was quite a major- operation i had on my spine. yes, i was quite _ operation i had on my spine. yes, i was quite disappointed _ operation i had on my spine. yes, i was quite disappointed in - operation i had on my spine. yes, i was quite disappointed in the - operation i had on my spine. yes, i was quite disappointed in the nhsi was quite disappointed in the nhs here, _ was quite disappointed in the nhs here, even— was quite disappointed in the nhs here, even though _ was quite disappointed in the nhs here, even though i _ was quite disappointed in the nhs here, even though i went- was quite disappointed in the nhs here, even though i went private, | was quite disappointed in the nhsi here, even though i went private, i went— here, even though i went private, i went private — here, even though i went private, i went private to _ here, even though i went private, i went private to move _ here, even though i went private, i went private to move it _ here, even though i went private, i went private to move it along - went private to move it along because _ went private to move it along because i_ went private to move it along because i was— went private to move it along because i was in— went private to move it along because i was in so— went private to move it along because i was in so much- went private to move it alongi because i was in so much pain went private to move it along i because i was in so much pain i went private to move it along - because i was in so much pain i was suicidal— because i was in so much pain i was suicidal with — because i was in so much pain i was suicidal with it _ because i was in so much pain i was suicidal with it. it _ because i was in so much pain i was suicidal with it. it is _ because i was in so much pain i was suicidal with it. it is quite _ because i was in so much pain i was suicidal with it. it is quite a - suicidal with it. it is quite a comparison, _ suicidal with it. it is quite a comparison, the _ suicidal with it. it is quite a comparison, the system i suicidal with it. it is quite a l comparison, the system over suicidal with it. it is quite a - comparison, the system over there suicidal with it. it is quite a _ comparison, the system over there is from my— comparison, the system over there is from my point— comparison, the system over there is from my point of— comparison, the system over there is from my point of view, _ comparison, the system over there is from my point of view, was _ comparison, the system over there is from my point of view, was very - from my point of view, was very quick _ from my point of view, was very quick there _ from my point of view, was very quick. there was _ from my point of view, was very quick. there was no— from my point of view, was very quick. there was no waiting - from my point of view, was veryi quick. there was no waiting time between — quick. there was no waiting time between departments. _ quick. there was no waiting time between departments. they - quick. there was no waiting time | between departments. they took quick. there was no waiting time - between departments. they took me to the mri _ between departments. they took me to the mri and _ between departments. they took me to the mri and i_ between departments. they took me to the mri and i was— between departments. they took me to the mri and i was there, _ between departments. they took me to the mri and i was there, no— between departments. they took me to the mri and i was there, no waiting, i the mri and i was there, no waiting, 'ust the mri and i was there, no waiting, just tapped _ the mri and i was there, no waiting, just tapped on— the mri and i was there, no waiting, just tapped on the _ the mri and i was there, no waiting, just tapped on the door, _ the mri and i was there, no waiting, just tapped on the door, come - the mri and i was there, no waiting, just tapped on the door, come on i the mri and i was there, no waiting, i just tapped on the door, come on in. none _ just tapped on the door, come on in. none of— just tapped on the door, come on in. none of this— just tapped on the door, come on in. none of this 3-4 _ just tapped on the door, come on in. none of this 3—4 months _ just tapped on the door, come on in. none of this 3—4 months waiting - just tapped on the door, come on in. none of this 3—4 months waiting fori none of this 3—4 months waiting for an mri. _ none of this 3—4 months waiting for an mri. which— none of this 3—4 months waiting for an mri. which i_ none of this 3—4 months waiting for an mri, which i have _ none of this 3—4 months waiting for an mri, which i have had _ none of this 3—4 months waiting for an mri, which i have had in- none of this 3—4 months waiting for an mri, which i have had in the - an mri, which i have had in the not—too—distant _ an mri, which i have had in the not—too—distant past. - an mri, which i have had in the not—too—distant past. and - an mri, which i have had in the not—too—distant past. and i- an mri, which i have had in the. not—too—distant past. and i have been _ not—too—distant past. and i have been going — not—too—distant past. and i have been going private, _ not—too—distant past. and i have been going private, i— not—too—distant past. and i have been going private, i had - not—too—distant past. and i have been going private, i had the - been going private, i had the revenue. _ been going private, i had the revenue, but _ been going private, i had the revenue, but i _ been going private, i had the revenue, but i have - been going private, i had the revenue, but i have is- been going private, i had the revenue, but i have is now. been going private, i had the - revenue, but i have is now spent my life savings — revenue, but i have is now spent my life savings on — revenue, but i have is now spent my life savings on this _ revenue, but i have is now spent my life savings on this one _ revenue, but i have is now spent my life savings on this one operation . life savings on this one operation

in germany, _ life savings on this one operation in germany, so— life savings on this one operation in germany, so the _ life savings on this one operation in germany, so the bank- life savings on this one operation in germany, so the bank of - life savings on this one operation in germany, so the bank of dad i life savings on this one operation| in germany, so the bank of dad is now redundant— in germany, so the bank of dad is now redundant and _ in germany, so the bank of dad is now redundant and closed! - in germany, so the bank of dad is now redundant and closed! the i in germany, so the bank of dad is i now redundant and closed! the kids are getting — now redundant and closed! the kids are getting no — now redundant and closed! the kids are getting no inheritance. - now redundant and closed! the kids are getting no inheritance. find- now redundant and closed! the kids are getting no inheritance.- are getting no inheritance. and how are getting no inheritance. and how are ou are getting no inheritance. and how are you now? _ are getting no inheritance. and how are you now? l _ are getting no inheritance. and how are you now? i am _ are getting no inheritance. and how are you now? i am still— are getting no inheritance. and how are you now? i am still in _ are getting no inheritance. and how are you now? i am still in pain - are getting no inheritance. and how are you now? i am still in pain and l are you now? i am still in pain and no for a are you now? i am still in pain and go for a private — are you now? i am still in pain and go for a private injection _ are you now? i am still in pain and go for a private injection on - are you now? i am still in pain and go for a private injection on my i go for a private injection on my shoulder— go for a private injection on my shoulder tomorrow. _ go for a private injection on my shouldertomorrow. i— go for a private injection on my shouldertomorrow. ijust- go for a private injection on my shoulder tomorrow. ijust can'ti go for a private injection on my- shoulder tomorrow. ijust can't get seen _ shoulder tomorrow. ijust can't get seen in _ shoulder tomorrow. ijust can't get seen in time — shoulder tomorrow. ijust can't get seen in time. the _ shoulder tomorrow. ijust can't get seen in time. the pain _ shoulder tomorrow. ijust can't get seen in time. the pain in _ shoulder tomorrow. ijust can't get seen in time. the pain in the - seen in time. the pain in the shoulder, _ seen in time. the pain in the shoulder, '— seen in time. the pain in the shoulder, ididn't_ seen in time. the pain in the shoulder, i didn't sleep- seen in time. the pain in the shoulder, i didn't sleep lasti seen in time. the pain in the - shoulder, i didn't sleep last night because — shoulder, ididn't sleep last night because of— shoulder, ididn't sleep last night because of shoulder— shoulder, i didn't sleep last night because of shoulder pain. - shoulder, i didn't sleep last night because of shoulder pain. i- shoulder, i didn't sleep last night because of shoulder pain. i have| because of shoulder pain. i have that osteoarthritis— because of shoulder pain. i have that osteoarthritis from - because of shoulder pain. i have that osteoarthritis from my - because of shoulder pain. i have - that osteoarthritis from my shoulder i’ilht that osteoarthritis from my shoulder right the _ that osteoarthritis from my shoulder right the way— that osteoarthritis from my shoulder right the way through _ that osteoarthritis from my shoulder right the way through to _ that osteoarthritis from my shoulder right the way through to the - right the way through to the cervical— right the way through to the cervical spine _ right the way through to the cervical spine on _ right the way through to the cervical spine on the - right the way through to the cervical spine on the neck i right the way through to the - cervical spine on the neck which is pretty— cervical spine on the neck which is pretty painful _ cervical spine on the neck which is pretty painful. but _ cervical spine on the neck which is pretty painful. but i— cervical spine on the neck which is pretty painful. but i have - cervical spine on the neck which is pretty painful. but i have been - pretty painful. but i have been getting — pretty painful. but i have been getting migraines— pretty painful. but i have been getting migraines every- pretty painful. but i have been getting migraines every day. pretty painful. but i have been i getting migraines every day prior pretty painful. but i have been - getting migraines every day prior to the operation — getting migraines every day prior to the operation i_ getting migraines every day prior to the operation. i now— getting migraines every day prior to the operation. i now get _ getting migraines every day prior to the operation. i now get a - getting migraines every day prior to the operation. i now get a migraine| the operation. i now get a migraine every— the operation. i now get a migraine every other— the operation. i now get a migraine every other day _ the operation. i now get a migraine every other day-— every other day. mike, i wish you well. every other day. mike, i wish you well- thank— every other day. mike, i wish you well. thank you _ every other day. mike, i wish you well. thank you very _ every other day. mike, i wish you well. thank you very much - every other day. mike, i wish you | well. thank you very much indeed. every other day. mike, i wish you i well. thank you very much indeed. i want to take one more call, but we don't have a lot of time, laura,

good morning. be ready for a rude interruption in around a minute and a half. but you want to undulate and celebrate. i a half. but you want to undulate and celebrate. . ., a half. but you want to undulate and celebrate. . . ., , celebrate. i have had a very ositive celebrate. i have had a very positive experience, - celebrate. i have had a very positive experience, luckily| celebrate. i have had a very i positive experience, luckily for celebrate. i have had a very - positive experience, luckily for me. with a _ positive experience, luckily for me. with a cancer, _ positive experience, luckily for me. with a cancer, quite _ positive experience, luckily for me. with a cancer, quite a _ positive experience, luckily for me. with a cancer, quite a short - positive experience, luckily for me. with a cancer, quite a short cancer| with a cancer, quite a short cancer journey _ with a cancer, quite a short cancer journey i— with a cancer, quite a short cancer journey i went _ with a cancer, quite a short cancer journey. i went for _ with a cancer, quite a short cancer journey. i went for a _ with a cancer, quite a short cancer journey. i went for a routine - with a cancer, quite a short canceri journey. i went for a routine smear test in _ journey. i went for a routine smear test in november— journey. i went for a routine smear test in november21_ journey. i went for a routine smear test in november 21 at— journey. i went for a routine smear test in november 21 at my- journey. i went for a routine smear test in november 21 at my local- test in november 21 at my local surgery — test in november 21 at my local surgery it _ test in november 21 at my local surgery. it revealed _ test in november 21 at my local surgery. it revealed an - test in november 21 at my local. surgery. it revealed an abnormal result— surgery. it revealed an abnormal result so— surgery. it revealed an abnormal result so i— surgery. it revealed an abnormal result so i was— surgery. it revealed an abnormal result so i was referred - surgery. it revealed an abnormal result so i was referred to - surgery. it revealed an abnormal result so i was referred to the i surgery. it revealed an abnormal result so i was referred to the ri surgery. it revealed an abnormal. result so i was referred to the r u h in bath — result so i was referred to the r u h in bath i— result so i was referred to the r u h in bath. i went _ result so i was referred to the r u h in bath. i went to— result so i was referred to the r u h in bath. i went to them - result so i was referred to the r u h in bath. i went to them and - result so i was referred to the r u h in bath. i went to them and hadi result so i was referred to the r u i h in bath. i went to them and had a biopsy— h in bath. i went to them and had a biopsy on _ h in bath. i went to them and had a biopsy on christmas _ h in bath. i went to them and had a biopsy on christmas eve _ h in bath. i went to them and had a biopsy on christmas eve 2021. - h in bath. i went to them and had a biopsy on christmas eve 2021. i- h in bath. i went to them and had a biopsy on christmas eve 2021. i had my results— biopsy on christmas eve 2021. i had my results in — biopsy on christmas eve 2021. i had my results in the _ biopsy on christmas eve 2021. i had my results in the first _ biopsy on christmas eve 2021. i had my results in the first week- biopsy on christmas eve 2021. i had my results in the first week of- my results in the first week of january. — my results in the first week of january. which— my results in the first week of january, which revealed - my results in the first week of january, which revealed i- my results in the first week of january, which revealed i had| my results in the first week of- january, which revealed i had stage one cervical— january, which revealed i had stage one cervical cancer— january, which revealed i had stage one cervical cancer and _ january, which revealed i had stage one cervical cancer and i _ january, which revealed i had stage one cervical cancer and i was - january, which revealed i had stage. one cervical cancer and i was booked in for— one cervical cancer and i was booked in for surgery— one cervical cancer and i was booked in for surgery in— one cervical cancer and i was booked in for surgery in the _ one cervical cancer and i was booked in for surgery in the middle - one cervical cancer and i was booked in for surgery in the middle of- in for surgery in the middle of february _ in for surgery in the middle of february. luckily— in for surgery in the middle of february. luckily for- in for surgery in the middle of february. luckily for me - in for surgery in the middle of february. luckily for me i- in for surgery in the middle of february. luckily for me i had in for surgery in the middle of. february. luckily for me i had a hysterectomy— february. luckily for me i had a hysterectomy that _ february. luckily for me i had a hysterectomy that caught - february. luckily for me i had a - hysterectomy that caught everything and i hysterectomy that caught everything and i didn't— hysterectomy that caught everything and i didn't need _ hysterectomy that caught everything and i didn't need any— hysterectomy that caught everything and i didn't need any radiotherapy. and i didn't need any radiotherapy

or chemotherapy _ and i didn't need any radiotherapy or chemotherapy and _ and i didn't need any radiotherapy or chemotherapy and my- and i didn't need any radiotherapy or chemotherapy and my canceri and i didn't need any radiotherapy. or chemotherapy and my cancer was such a _ or chemotherapy and my cancer was such a quick— or chemotherapy and my cancer was such a quick turnaround. _ or chemotherapy and my cancer was such a quick turnaround. the - or chemotherapy and my cancer was such a quick turnaround. the care i. such a quick turnaround. the care i received. _ such a quick turnaround. the care i received. they— such a quick turnaround. the care i received, they were _ such a quick turnaround. the care i received, they were fantastic - such a quick turnaround. the care i received, they were fantastic and l received, they were fantastic and they let _ received, they were fantastic and they let me — received, they were fantastic and they let me go— received, they were fantastic and they let me go the _ received, they were fantastic and they let me go the same - received, they were fantastic and they let me go the same day- received, they were fantastic and i they let me go the same day after they let me go the same day after the hysterectomy, _ they let me go the same day after the hysterectomy, which- they let me go the same day after the hysterectomy, which i- they let me go the same day after the hysterectomy, which i was- they let me go the same day after the hysterectomy, which i was sol the hysterectomy, which i was so grateful — the hysterectomy, which i was so grateful for _ the hysterectomy, which i was so grateful for. they _ the hysterectomy, which i was so grateful for. they looked - the hysterectomy, which i was so grateful for. they looked after i the hysterectomy, which i was sol grateful for. they looked after me so well _ grateful for. they looked after me so well. ., ., ., , ., so well. let me get more out of you. in what so well. let me get more out of you. in what way — so well. let me get more out of you. in what way was _ so well. let me get more out of you. in what way was it _ so well. let me get more out of you. in what way was it fantastic? - so well. let me get more out of you. in what way was it fantastic? just - in what way was it fantastic? just their care. _ in what way was it fantastic? just their care. l _ in what way was it fantastic? just their care, i felt _ in what way was it fantastic? just their care, i felt really well looked _ their care, i felt really well looked after, _ their care, i felt really well looked after, really - their care, i felt really well looked after, really well i their care, i felt really well- looked after, really well informed, and the _ looked after, really well informed, and the speed _ looked after, really well informed, and the speed of— looked after, really well informed, and the speed of the _ looked after, really well informed, and the speed of the service. - looked after, really well informed, and the speed of the service. i- looked after, really well informed, i and the speed of the service. i was expecting — and the speed of the service. i was expecting the _ and the speed of the service. i was expecting the surgery— and the speed of the service. i was expecting the surgery to _ and the speed of the service. i was expecting the surgery to take - and the speed of the service. i was expecting the surgery to take a - expecting the surgery to take a little _ expecting the surgery to take a little white _ expecting the surgery to take a little while but _ expecting the surgery to take a little while but it _ expecting the surgery to take a little while but it didn't. - expecting the surgery to take a little while but it didn't. all- expecting the surgery to take a i little while but it didn't. all done and dusted — little while but it didn't. all done and dusted in— little while but it didn't. all done and dusted in a _ little while but it didn't. all done and dusted in a couple _ little while but it didn't. all done and dusted in a couple of- little while but it didn't. all done. and dusted in a couple of months. little while but it didn't. all done i and dusted in a couple of months. i was realty— and dusted in a couple of months. i was really impressed _ and dusted in a couple of months. i was really impressed with - and dusted in a couple of months. i was really impressed with that. - and dusted in a couple of months. i was really impressed with that. my| was really impressed with that. my mum _ was really impressed with that. my mum weht — was really impressed with that. my mum went through _ was really impressed with that. my mum went through a _ was really impressed with that. my mum went through a similar- was really impressed with that. my. mum went through a similarjourney herself— mum went through a similarjourney herself in— mum went through a similarjourney herself in the — mum went through a similarjourney herself in the very _ mum went through a similarjourney herself in the very first _ mum went through a similarjourney herself in the very first lockdown - herself in the very first lockdown in march — herself in the very first lockdown in march of — herself in the very first lockdown in march of 2020 _ herself in the very first lockdown in march of 2020 when - herself in the very first lockdown in march of 2020 when she - herself in the very first lockdown in march of 2020 when she was. in march of 2020 when she was diagnosed _ in march of 2020 when she was diagnosed with— in march of 2020 when she was diagnosed with breast - in march of 2020 when she was diagnosed with breast cancer. in march of 2020 when she was i diagnosed with breast cancer and told because _ diagnosed with breast cancer and told because we _ diagnosed with breast cancer and told because we had _ diagnosed with breast cancer and told because we had all- diagnosed with breast cancer and told because we had alljust - diagnosed with breast cancer and i told because we had alljust gone into lockdown _ told because we had alljust gone into lockdown to _ told because we had alljust gone into lockdown to expect - told because we had alljust gone into lockdown to expect delays i told because we had alljust gone i into lockdown to expect delays and everything — into lockdown to expect delays and everything but _ into lockdown to expect delays and everything but again... _ into lockdown to expect delays and everything but again... [its- into lockdown to expect delays and everything but again. . ._ everything but again... its great to hear the positive. _ everything but again. .. its great to hear the positive. i _ everything but again... its great to hear the positive. i told _ everything but again... its great to hear the positive. i told you - everything but again. .. its great to hear the positive. i told you i - hear the positive. i told you i would have to be brusque and rude and interrupt you at the top of the hour. thank you, that's a lovely way

to end, hearing about what so many people experience, a positive experience. kevin will stick around for one question, ask your mp is one question, ask your mp is one question given that he knows his onions on this. it is wednesday and pmqs from 12. oliver dowden will be stepping in for rishi sunak again. between now and 11, i'll be joined by my panel of mps. this week it's the conservative mp for wimbledon, former health minister stephen hammond, the labour mp for nottingham north alex norris, the shadow levelling up minister and the snp mp for central ayrshire, dr philippa whitford. so get your questions in — the nhs, railway station ticket office closures, school strikes, interest rates,

'mingle andjingle'. you set the agenda — you ask the questions — get them in now. the 75th anniversary of the national health service is being marked with a service at westminster abbey. the duke and duchess of edinburgh will be there, along with fifteen hundred health workers. three leading think tanks say the nhs won't reach its centenary without significant investment.the regulator, ofwat, says investors in thames water appear to be reluctant to put more cash into the company. it's currently struggling, with debts thought to be around £14 billion. trade unions and charities representing blind people are angry about plans for a mass closure of railway station ticket offices in england. only the busiest stations would retain offices under operators' proposals. a consultation is due to be announced. fiona phillips has revealed she has alzheimer's.

the former gmtv presenter, who's 62, is involved in trials of a new drug which could potentially slow the effects of the disease. her mother, father and uncle also suffered from it. our wednesday mp panel. good morning. best behaviour. alex norris, mp, therefore labour. how are you doing?— norris, mp, therefore labour. how are you doing? very well, thank you for havin: are you doing? very well, thank you for having me- _ are you doing? very well, thank you for having me. and _ are you doing? very well, thank you for having me. and the _ are you doing? very well, thank you for having me. and the snp, - are you doing? very well, thank you | for having me. and the snp, philippa whitford.

for having me. and the snp, philippa whitford- how— for having me. and the snp, philippa whitford. how are _ for having me. and the snp, philippa whitford. how are you? _ for having me. and the snp, philippa whitford. how are you? i— for having me. and the snp, philippa whitford. how are you? i am - for having me. and the snp, philippa whitford. how are you? i am fine, i whitford. how are you? i am fine, thanks. straight _ whitford. how are you? i am fine, thanks. straight for _ whitford. how are you? i am fine, thanks. straight for the _ whitford. how are you? i am fine, thanks. straight for the nhs - whitford. how are you? i am fine, thanks. straight for the nhs is - whitford. how are you? i am fine, i thanks. straight for the nhs is what we are talking _ thanks. straight for the nhs is what we are talking about _ thanks. straight for the nhs is what we are talking about any _ thanks. straight for the nhs is what we are talking about any little - thanks. straight for the nhs is what we are talking about any little bit i we are talking about any little bit of overtime from the nhs consultant and it is those who just made a documentary about the nhs for beauty sounds, a bit of a bbc insider about the health service insider as well. my the health service insider as well. my question is this... the nhs work for our— my question is this... the nhs work for our d_ my question is this... the nhs work for our d hope. _ my question is this... the nhs work for our d hope, what _ my question is this... the nhs work for our d hope, what will— my question is this... the nhs work for our d hope, what will take - my question is this... the nhs work for our d hope, what will take us. for our d hope, what will take us through— for our d hope, what will take us through att— for our d hope, what will take us through all of— for our d hope, what will take us through all of this, _ for our d hope, what will take us through all of this, they- for our d hope, what will take us through all of this, they soars i through all of this, they soars through— through all of this, they soars through covid, _ through all of this, they soars through covid, they _ through all of this, they soars through covid, they are - through all of this, they soars through covid, they are in- through all of this, they soars - through covid, they are in trouble now, _ through covid, they are in trouble now. what— through covid, they are in trouble now, what have _ through covid, they are in trouble now, what have you _ through covid, they are in trouble now, what have you got _ through covid, they are in trouble now, what have you got for- through covid, they are in trouble now, what have you got for them| through covid, they are in trouble - now, what have you got for them and what can _ now, what have you got for them and what can you — now, what have you got for them and what can you do _ now, what have you got for them and what can you do for _ now, what have you got for them and what can you do for them _ now, what have you got for them and what can you do for them now- now, what have you got for them and what can you do for them now that i what can you do for them now that will make — what can you do for them now that will make a — what can you do for them now that will make a difference _ what can you do for them now that will make a difference now? - what can you do for them now that will make a difference now? and . what can you do for them now that will make a difference now? and ii will make a difference now? and i don't _ will make a difference now? and i don't nrean — will make a difference now? and i don't mean the _ will make a difference now? and i don't mean the long—term - will make a difference now? and i don't mean the long—term plan, l will make a difference now? and i don't mean the long—term plan, i| don't mean the long—term plan, i nrean _ don't mean the long—term plan, i nrean right— don't mean the long—term plan, i nrean right now. _ don't mean the long—term plan, i mean right now, to— don't mean the long—term plan, i mean right now, to recover- don't mean the long—term plan, i| mean right now, to recover them, don't mean the long—term plan, i. mean right now, to recover them, to support— mean right now, to recover them, to support them, — mean right now, to recover them, to support them, to _ mean right now, to recover them, to support them, to help _ mean right now, to recover them, to support them, to help them - mean right now, to recover them, to support them, to help them and - support them, to help them and others — support them, to help them and others. . ~' , ., , . others. thank you very much indeed. if ou others. thank you very much indeed. if you have — others. thank you very much indeed. if you have a — others. thank you very much indeed. if you have a question _ others. thank you very much indeed. if you have a question about - others. thank you very much indeed. if you have a question about the - others. thank you very much indeed. if you have a question about the nhsj if you have a question about the nhs or anything else get it is now. —— get it to us now. it or anything else get it is now. -- get it to us now.—

or anything else get it is now. -- get it to us now. it is a mixture of short and — get it to us now. it is a mixture of short and medium _ get it to us now. it is a mixture of short and medium term. - get it to us now. it is a mixture of short and medium term. i - get it to us now. it is a mixture of. short and medium term. i reflected to phitippa — short and medium term. i reflected to philippa before _ short and medium term. i reflected to philippa before we _ short and medium term. i reflected to philippa before we came - short and medium term. i reflected to philippa before we came on - short and medium term. i reflected to philippa before we came on air. to philippa before we came on air that the _ to philippa before we came on air that the first _ to philippa before we came on air that the first thoughts _ to philippa before we came on air that the first thoughts about - to philippa before we came on air that the first thoughts about the i that the first thoughts about the tong-term — that the first thoughts about the long—term planner— that the first thoughts about the long—term planner actually- that the first thoughts about the | long—term planner actually when that the first thoughts about the i long—term planner actually when i was stilt— long—term planner actually when i was still health _ long—term planner actually when i was still health minister— long—term planner actually when i was still health minister and - long—term planner actually when i was still health minister and thati was still health minister and that was still health minister and that was a _ was still health minister and that was a recognition _ was still health minister and that was a recognition that _ was still health minister and that was a recognition that the - was still health minister and that was a recognition that the fact i was still health minister and that was a recognition that the fact of the ntatter— was a recognition that the fact of the matter is— was a recognition that the fact of the matter is we _ was a recognition that the fact of the matter is we don't _ was a recognition that the fact of the matter is we don't look- was a recognition that the fact of the matter is we don't look a - the matter is we don't look a non-fat— the matter is we don't look a non—fat retention— the matter is we don't look a non—fat retention and - the matter is we don't look a| non—fat retention and valuing the matter is we don't look a - non—fat retention and valuing the people _ non—fat retention and valuing the peopte who — non—fat retention and valuing the peopte who have _ non—fat retention and valuing the people who have trained - non—fat retention and valuing the people who have trained in- non—fat retention and valuing the people who have trained in the i non—fat retention and valuing the i people who have trained in the uk, in the _ people who have trained in the uk, in the tong — people who have trained in the uk, in the tong term _ people who have trained in the uk, in the long term workforce - people who have trained in the uk, in the long term workforce plan - people who have trained in the uk, in the long term workforce plan is i people who have trained in the uk, | in the long term workforce plan is a recognition — in the long term workforce plan is a recognition of — in the long term workforce plan is a recognition of that. _ in the long term workforce plan is a recognition of that. in _ in the long term workforce plan is a recognition of that. in the - in the long term workforce plan is a recognition of that. in the short - recognition of that. in the short term, _ recognition of that. in the short term, combined _ recognition of that. in the short term, combined with _ recognition of that. in the short term, combined with the - recognition of that. in the short term, combined with the pay. recognition of that. in the short - term, combined with the pay awards and ensuring— term, combined with the pay awards and ensuring we— term, combined with the pay awards and ensuring we listen— term, combined with the pay awards and ensuring we listen to _ term, combined with the pay awards and ensuring we listen to what - term, combined with the pay awards and ensuring we listen to what the l and ensuring we listen to what the pay review — and ensuring we listen to what the pay review tjody— and ensuring we listen to what the pay review body save _ and ensuring we listen to what the pay review body save for _ and ensuring we listen to what the pay review body save for the - and ensuring we listen to what the i pay review body save for the coming year. _ pay review body save for the coming year. we _ pay review body save for the coming year. we need — pay review body save for the coming year. we need to— pay review body save for the coming year, we need to look— pay review body save for the coming year, we need to look at _ pay review body save for the coming year, we need to look at something | year, we need to look at something non-pay— year, we need to look at something non—pay conditions _ year, we need to look at something non—pay conditions that _ year, we need to look at something non—pay conditions that would - non—pay conditions that would encourage _ non—pay conditions that would encourage nhs _ non—pay conditions that would encourage nhs workers - non—pay conditions that would encourage nhs workers to - non—pay conditions that would i encourage nhs workers to stay non—pay conditions that would - encourage nhs workers to stay within the nhs _ encourage nhs workers to stay within the nhs and — encourage nhs workers to stay within the nhs and feel— encourage nhs workers to stay within the nhs and feel valued. _ encourage nhs workers to stay within the nhs and feel valued. some - encourage nhs workers to stay within the nhs and feel valued. some of- the nhs and feel valued. some of that looks — the nhs and feel valued. some of that looks at _ the nhs and feel valued. some of that looks at nurses, _ the nhs and feel valued. some of that looks at nurses, flexibility i the nhs and feel valued. some of that looks at nurses, flexibility of| that looks at nurses, flexibility of rostering — that looks at nurses, flexibility of rostering which is _ that looks at nurses, flexibility of rostering which is more _ that looks at nurses, flexibility of . rostering which is more appropriate to their— rostering which is more appropriate to their lifestyles, _ rostering which is more appropriate to their lifestyles, so _ rostering which is more appropriate to their lifestyles, so they - rostering which is more appropriate to their lifestyles, so they can - to their lifestyles, so they can control — to their lifestyles, so they can control what _ to their lifestyles, so they can control what they _ to their lifestyles, so they can control what they do. - to their lifestyles, so they can control what they do. for - to their lifestyles, so they can. control what they do. forjunior doctors. — control what they do. forjunior doctors. the _ control what they do. forjunior doctors, the balance _ control what they do. forjunior doctors, the balance between. control what they do. forjunior- doctors, the balance between what is expected _ doctors, the balance between what is expected of—

doctors, the balance between what is expected of them, _ doctors, the balance between what is expected of them, clear— doctors, the balance between what is expected of them, clear promotion, i expected of them, clear promotion, clear recognition, _ expected of them, clear promotion, clear recognition, some _ expected of them, clear promotion, clear recognition, some of- expected of them, clear promotion, clear recognition, some of the - clear recognition, some of the pressures— clear recognition, some of the pressures put— clear recognition, some of the pressures put on— clear recognition, some of the pressures put on them - clear recognition, some of the pressures put on them affecti clear recognition, some of the - pressures put on them affect their welt-being — pressures put on them affect their welt-being and _ pressures put on them affect their well—being and mental— pressures put on them affect their well—being and mental health - pressures put on them affect their well—being and mental health and| well—being and mental health and what you — well—being and mental health and what you can _ well—being and mental health and what you can do _ well—being and mental health and what you can do it _ well—being and mental health and what you can do it alongside - well—being and mental health and what you can do it alongside that, so as— what you can do it alongside that, so as usual— what you can do it alongside that, so as usual there _ what you can do it alongside that, so as usual there are _ what you can do it alongside that, so as usual there are a _ what you can do it alongside that, so as usual there are a number. what you can do it alongside that, so as usual there are a number ofj so as usual there are a number of short-term — so as usual there are a number of short—term measures _ so as usual there are a number of short—term measures such - so as usual there are a number of short—term measures such as - so as usual there are a number of short—term measures such as pay so as usual there are a number of- short—term measures such as pay and the sort _ short—term measures such as pay and the sort of— short—term measures such as pay and the sort of things— short—term measures such as pay and the sort of things have _ short—term measures such as pay and the sort of things have been - short—term measures such as pay and the sort of things have been talking. the sort of things have been talking about, _ the sort of things have been talking about, trut— the sort of things have been talking about, but into _ the sort of things have been talking about, but into the _ the sort of things have been talking about, but into the medium - the sort of things have been talking about, but into the medium term . the sort of things have been talkingl about, but into the medium term we need to— about, but into the medium term we need to talk— about, but into the medium term we need to talk about _ about, but into the medium term we need to talk about how— about, but into the medium term we need to talk about how we _ about, but into the medium term we need to talk about how we train - about, but into the medium term wei need to talk about how we train more uk doctors _ need to talk about how we train more uk doctors and — need to talk about how we train more uk doctors and nurses _ need to talk about how we train more uk doctors and nurses that _ need to talk about how we train more uk doctors and nurses that stay, - need to talk about how we train more uk doctors and nurses that stay, we i uk doctors and nurses that stay, we need _ uk doctors and nurses that stay, we need to— uk doctors and nurses that stay, we need to took— uk doctors and nurses that stay, we need to took at _ uk doctors and nurses that stay, we need to look at some _ uk doctors and nurses that stay, we need to look at some of _ uk doctors and nurses that stay, we need to look at some of the - uk doctors and nurses that stay, we need to look at some of the new- need to look at some of the new parts _ need to look at some of the new parts of— need to look at some of the new parts of the _ need to look at some of the new parts of the nhs _ need to look at some of the new parts of the nhs such _ need to look at some of the new parts of the nhs such as - need to look at some of the newj parts of the nhs such as nursing associates — parts of the nhs such as nursing associates and _ parts of the nhs such as nursing associates and how— parts of the nhs such as nursing associates and how they - parts of the nhs such as nursing associates and how they can - parts of the nhs such as nursing i associates and how they can build and how _ associates and how they can build and how some _ associates and how they can build and how some of _ associates and how they can build and how some of the _ associates and how they can build and how some of the new- associates and how they can build and how some of the new skills . associates and how they can build i and how some of the new skills were there. _ and how some of the new skills were there. and _ and how some of the new skills were there, and recognising _ and how some of the new skills were there, and recognising also - and how some of the new skills were there, and recognising also that - there, and recognising also that some _ there, and recognising also that some elements _ there, and recognising also that some elements of— there, and recognising also that some elements of the - there, and recognising also that| some elements of the workforce because — some elements of the workforce because of— some elements of the workforce because of the _ some elements of the workforce because of the higher— some elements of the workforce because of the higher elementsl some elements of the workforce i because of the higher elements of some elements of the workforce - because of the higher elements of it in terms _ because of the higher elements of it in terms of— because of the higher elements of it in terms of the — because of the higher elements of it in terms of the technology— because of the higher elements of it in terms of the technology and - because of the higher elements of itj in terms of the technology and being asked _ in terms of the technology and being asked to _ in terms of the technology and being asked to do — in terms of the technology and being asked to do things _ in terms of the technology and being asked to do things and _ in terms of the technology and being asked to do things and what - in terms of the technology and being asked to do things and what it - in terms of the technology and being asked to do things and what it is - asked to do things and what it is doing _ asked to do things and what it is doing to — asked to do things and what it is doing to treatment _ asked to do things and what it is doing to treatment means - asked to do things and what it is doing to treatment means that i asked to do things and what it is i doing to treatment means that new speciatities — doing to treatment means that new specialities will— doing to treatment means that new specialities will arise _ doing to treatment means that new specialities will arise and _ doing to treatment means that new specialities will arise and how we i specialities will arise and how we support— specialities will arise and how we support those _ specialities will arise and how we sopport those-— support those. philippa, doctor whitford, support those. philippa, doctor whitford. in — support those. philippa, doctor whitford, in 2015 _ support those. philippa, doctor whitford, in 2015 un _ support those. philippa, doctor whitford, in 2015 un viral-

support those. philippa, doctor whitford, in 2015 un viral for. whitford, in 2015 un viral for predicting the privatisation and set in five years england will not have an nhs and in ten years if we vote no need were we, by setting aside the port no vote yet the spirit, it's quite interesting what you said because we've been asking this morning and had a huge response predictably and inevitably, nhs 75 lonely country, such answer your question in the context of those comments about what you see is a looming privatisation dawn i find it quite interesting... looming privatisation dawn i find it quite interesting. . ._ looming privatisation dawn i find it quite interesting... when we had a nhs 70 we — quite interesting... when we had a nhs 70 we had _ quite interesting... when we had a nhs 70 we had a _ quite interesting... when we had a nhs 70 we had a big _ quite interesting... when we had a nhs 70 we had a big celebration i quite interesting... when we had a nhs 70 we had a big celebration in scotland _ nhs 70 we had a big celebration in scotland where for all the challenges of the nhs we still have a single _ challenges of the nhs we still have a single unified public health system, _ a single unified public health system, whereas i was asked to come and speak— system, whereas i was asked to come and speak at— system, whereas i was asked to come and speak at a march year in london which _ and speak at a march year in london which was _ and speak at a march year in london which was based on save our nhs and one of— which was based on save our nhs and one of the _ which was based on save our nhs and one of the downsides of the health and social— one of the downsides of the health and social care act of 2012 was the sheer— and social care act of 2012 was the sheer fragmentation that that caused within— sheer fragmentation that that caused within england because well people thought— within england because well people thought the nhs was having to tender and bid _ thought the nhs was having to tender and bid against private companies,

the health— and bid against private companies, the health and social care act of 2012 _ the health and social care act of 2012 section 75 actually gave an advantage to private companies and there _ advantage to private companies and there are _ advantage to private companies and there are also bidding against each other— there are also bidding against each other so— there are also bidding against each other so that mounting scientific pathways, collaboration and cooperation became much harder. front _ cooperation became much harder. front tine — cooperation became much harder. front line staff, nurses, doctors, hp is. _ front line staff, nurses, doctors, hp is, they— front line staff, nurses, doctors, hp is, they worked their hearts and souls _ hp is, they worked their hearts and souls out _ hp is, they worked their hearts and souls out every single day, regardless of what system they are working _ regardless of what system they are working on within the uk or across europe. _ working on within the uk or across europe, but— working on within the uk or across europe, but we always need to make sure that _ europe, but we always need to make sure that the system is in either wasting — sure that the system is in either wasting money or making cooperation and collaboration more difficult, and collaboration more difficult, and i_ and collaboration more difficult, and i think the issue that kevin brought— and i think the issue that kevin brought up of workforce is the single — brought up of workforce is the single biggest issue, money has always— single biggest issue, money has always been an issue, i graduated in 1982. _ always been an issue, i graduated in 1982, we _ always been an issue, i graduated in 1982, i've seen the nhs will through lots 1982, i've seen the nhs will through tots of— 1982, i've seen the nhs will through lots of different changes in my more than three _ lots of different changes in my more than three decades working on it, but right— than three decades working on it, but right now workforce is the biggest — but right now workforce is the biggest single issue and unfortunately going forward we hear

from labour, who officer hoping to be the _ from labour, who officer hoping to be the next — from labour, who officer hoping to be the next government is that their shadow— be the next government is that their shadow health spokesperson actually talks about even more outsourcing to private _ talks about even more outsourcing to private companies and i think that weakens— private companies and i think that weakens the unification, the collaboration, the development of systems— collaboration, the development of systems particularly around cancer which _ systems particularly around cancer which is _ systems particularly around cancer which is a — systems particularly around cancer which is a complicated service. i was a _ which is a complicated service. i was a breast cancer surgeon for over 30 years _ was a breast cancer surgeon for over 30 years |_ was a breast cancer surgeon for over 30 ears. ., �* , . . 30 years. i don't understand that characterisation _ 30 years. i don't understand that characterisation and _ 30 years. i don't understand that characterisation and i _ 30 years. i don't understand that characterisation and i can - 30 years. i don't understand that characterisation and i can tell- 30 years. i don't understand that| characterisation and i can tell you what philippa said of the original question was only believing the system currently very distressed, there is no doubt about that, that's what you're asking will 75 become hundred, believe well but we will have to take immediate action and one one of those things that is proportionate to do is that when you are under pressure like this, leaning on private capacity to help numbers down because every one of those numbers is a statistic on a piece of paper, person living in

misery, and we can say that doesn't align with our values, you must wait, but actually that is not that person's fall, a system broken over the last 13 years, is a short leaning on private capacity i think is the right thing to do and in the, no very clear that we want to put private it's a business by having an nhs this will be nobody would want to use it so that is not quite the same thing as philippa said nuts in immediate action we take today, leaving that to again answer the original question was swiftly a resolution on pay, degree of that we know there is more to that too, that will only be resolved by negotiation, we need the government to get any table get that crack so will give some relief and very importantly bit of prevention, particularly in using our capacity and primary care better, we know community pharmacies are crying out to use their capacity, real covid heroes, the doors open, services still there we know people value the

man that could help take some of the heat out the front door as well, so a degree of things we could do their immediately that we start to see some improvement. is immediately that we start to see some improvement.— immediately that we start to see some improvement. is really going to be short-term? _ some improvement. is really going to be short-term? because _ some improvement. is really going to be short-term? because the - be short—term? because the statements are much more a long—term strategy— statements are much more a long—term strategy of— statements are much more a long—term strategy of involving more private companies within the nhs. that is not our view. _ companies within the nhs. that is not our view, my _ companies within the nhs. that is not our view, my analysis - companies within the nhs. that is not our view, my analysis of - companies within the nhs. that is not our view, my analysis of the i not our view, my analysis of the 2012 health and care act is the same as yours, i don't think that greater fragmentation and served communities, i don't think that all the artificial tendering talk about section 7051 don't think it is serve the health service and that is why there is legislation to virtually replace it with any decade, so that is not our view in the meantime i would not let my political prince will something hold very dearly, a public nhs, get in the way of someone immediately getting that new replacement that means they can sleep at night and go back to work and to live in misery, that i don't

think would be right, so it is a short—term thing was something i think we can do. short-term thing was something i think we can do.— short-term thing was something i think we can do. have any of that we have ou think we can do. have any of that we have you ever— think we can do. have any of that we have you ever gone _ think we can do. have any of that we have you ever gone private? - think we can do. have any of that we have you ever gone private? no. - think we can do. have any of that we have you ever gone private? no. i i have you ever gone private? no. i never did have you ever gone private? tip. i never did any private practice. have you ever gone private? no. i never did any private practice. wej never did any private practice. we do use occasionally in the system, contracts— do use occasionally in the system, contracts with _ do use occasionally in the system, contracts with private _ do use occasionally in the system, contracts with private to _ do use occasionally in the system, contracts with private to bring - do use occasionally in the system, contracts with private to bring the| contracts with private to bring the public _ contracts with private to bring the public goods. _ contracts with private to bring the public goods, and _ contracts with private to bring the public goods, and we _ contracts with private to bring the public goods, and we should... isj public goods, and we should... is not privatisation _ public goods, and we should... is not privatisation of _ public goods, and we should... is not privatisation of the _ public goods, and we should... is not privatisation of the health - not privatisation of the health service, — not privatisation of the health service, everybody— not privatisation of the health service, everybody believes l not privatisation of the health| service, everybody believes in not privatisation of the health - service, everybody believes in the pubiic— service, everybody believes in the public health _ service, everybody believes in the public health service, _ service, everybody believes in the public health service, it's - service, everybody believes in the public health service, it's been . public health service, it's been absotutety _ public health service, it's been absolutely clear. _ public health service, it's been absolutely clear. why- public health service, it's been absolutely clear. why think - public health service, it's been absolutely clear. why think is i absolutely clear. why think is interesting _ absolutely clear. why think is interesting that— absolutely clear. why think is interesting that ways - absolutely clear. why think is interesting that ways cosmici interesting that ways cosmic comments _ interesting that ways cosmic comments but _ interesting that ways cosmic comments but disappointing interesting that ways cosmic- comments but disappointing about his reaction _ comments but disappointing about his reaction to— comments but disappointing about his reaction to what _ comments but disappointing about his reaction to what sajid _ comments but disappointing about his reaction to what sajid javid _ comments but disappointing about his reaction to what sajid javid was - reaction to what sajid javid was saying — reaction to what sajid javid was saying this _ reaction to what sajid javid was saying this because _ reaction to what sajid javid was saying this because actually- reaction to what sajid javid was saying this because actually he| reaction to what sajid javid was - saying this because actually he was saying _ saying this because actually he was saying that — saying this because actually he was saying that alongside _ saying this because actually he was saying that alongside money, - saying this because actually he was i saying that alongside money, because ithink— saying that alongside money, because i think the _ saying that alongside money, because i think the labour— saying that alongside money, because i think the labour party— saying that alongside money, because i think the labour party recognise - i think the labour party recognise actuatiy— i think the labour party recognise actually that _ i think the labour party recognise actually that this _ i think the labour party recognise actually that this health _ i think the labour party recognise actually that this health service . actually that this health service has been — actually that this health service has been given— actually that this health service has been given extraordinary. actually that this health service - has been given extraordinary amounts of money. _ has been given extraordinary amounts of money. that— has been given extraordinary amounts of money. that it _ has been given extraordinary amounts of money, that it needs— has been given extraordinary amounts of money, that it needs alongside - of money, that it needs alongside investment— of money, that it needs alongside investment reform _ of money, that it needs alongside investment reform and _ of money, that it needs alongside investment reform and when - of money, that it needs alongside investment reform and when i - of money, that it needs alongside - investment reform and when i started that conversation— investment reform and when i started that conversation and _ investment reform and when i started that conversation and i— investment reform and when i started that conversation and i think - investment reform and when i started that conversation and i think people l that conversation and i think people are right _ that conversation and i think people are right to— that conversation and i think people are right to given— that conversation and i think people are right to given credit—

that conversation and i think people are right to given credit for- that conversation and i think people are right to given credit for that, . are right to given credit for that, think— are right to given credit for that, think it _ are right to given credit for that, think it was _ are right to given credit for that, think it was disappointing - are right to given credit for that, think it was disappointing whenl think it was disappointing when another— think it was disappointing when another contribution _ think it was disappointing when another contribution to - think it was disappointing when another contribution to the - think it was disappointing when i another contribution to the reform that was— another contribution to the reform that was being _ another contribution to the reform that was being spoken _ another contribution to the reform that was being spoken about - another contribution to the reform that was being spoken about this i that was being spoken about this week. _ that was being spoken about this week. in— that was being spoken about this week. interms— that was being spoken about this week, in terms of— that was being spoken about this week, in terms of their- that was being spoken about this week, in terms of their we - that was being spoken about this week, in terms of their we need i that was being spoken about this - week, in terms of their we need both evolution— week, in terms of their we need both evolution and — week, in terms of their we need both evolution and revolution _ week, in terms of their we need both evolution and revolution structures . evolution and revolution structures inside _ evolution and revolution structures inside the — evolution and revolution structures inside the health _ evolution and revolution structures inside the health service _ evolution and revolution structures inside the health service or- evolution and revolution structures inside the health service or how i evolution and revolution structures| inside the health service or how we treat— inside the health service or how we treat people — inside the health service or how we treat peopte are _ inside the health service or how we treat people are recognising - inside the health service or how we treat people are recognising that. treat people are recognising that invention — treat people are recognising that invention is _ treat people are recognising that invention is more _ treat people are recognising that invention is more important - treat people are recognising that invention is more important are| invention is more important are recognising _ invention is more important are recognising there _ invention is more important are recognising there will— invention is more important are recognising there will be - invention is more important are recognising there will be new. invention is more important are - recognising there will be new cures, and actually — recognising there will be new cures, and actually we _ recognising there will be new cures, and actually we need _ recognising there will be new cures, and actually we need reform, - recognising there will be new cures, and actually we need reform, and i and actually we need reform, and btaming _ and actually we need reform, and blaming someone _ and actually we need reform, and blaming someone else _ and actually we need reform, and blaming someone else about - and actually we need reform, and blaming someone else about this| blaming someone else about this wasn't _ blaming someone else about this wasn't hetpfut— blaming someone else about this wasn't helpful whereas _ blaming someone else about this wasn't helpful whereas initially. blaming someone else about this wasn't helpful whereas initially ii wasn't helpful whereas initially i think— wasn't helpful whereas initially i think wes — wasn't helpful whereas initially i think wes was _ wasn't helpful whereas initially i think wes was right _ wasn't helpful whereas initially i think wes was right that - wasn't helpful whereas initially i think wes was right that that. wasn't helpful whereas initially ii think wes was right that that was wasn't helpful whereas initially i. think wes was right that that was a recognition — think wes was right that that was a recognition that— think wes was right that that was a recognition that in _ think wes was right that that was a recognition that in the _ think wes was right that that was a recognition that in the next - think wes was right that that was a recognition that in the next few - recognition that in the next few years— recognition that in the next few years prevention— recognition that in the next few years prevention in— recognition that in the next few years prevention in some - recognition that in the next few - years prevention in some short—term and medium-term _ years prevention in some short—term and medium—term reform _ years prevention in some short—term and medium—term reform of- years prevention in some short—term and medium—term reform of how- years prevention in some short—term and medium—term reform of how we| and medium—term reform of how we support— and medium—term reform of how we support the — and medium—term reform of how we support the health _ and medium—term reform of how we support the health service _ and medium—term reform of how we support the health service and - and medium—term reform of how we support the health service and bring| support the health service and bring things— support the health service and bring things forward _ support the health service and bring things forward-— things forward. allow me to go to colle . e, things forward. allow me to go to college, interesting _ things forward. allow me to go to college, interesting remarks - things forward. allow me to go to college, interesting remarks and | things forward. allow me to go to i college, interesting remarks and you are an expert, you all have expertise in this. and i know, i'm just looking at your expertise here because you wear, let me see, god here. that's the one. parliamentary private, secretary dawn shadow

minister for prevention. private, secretary dawn shadow ministerfor prevention. i knew it was there somewhere but i got it from the horse's mouth. mark in plymouth, what would you like to see? i plymouth, what would you like to see? . ., . ,~' plymouth, what would you like to see? . ., . ., plymouth, what would you like to see? ., ., ., ., plymouth, what would you like to see? . ., . ., , see? i wanted to ask, do you believe there is enough _ see? i wanted to ask, do you believe there is enough funding _ see? i wanted to ask, do you believe there is enough funding going - see? i wanted to ask, do you believe there is enough funding going into i there is enough funding going into key areas of the nhs to reduce the ongoing waiting times at the moment? it is there enough funding? yes ongoing waiting times at the moment? it is there enough funding?— it is there enough funding? yes and the government _ it is there enough funding? yes and the government has _ it is there enough funding? yes and the government has made - it is there enough funding? yes and the government has made extra - the government has made extra commitment _ the government has made extra commitment any— the government has made extra commitment any number- the government has made extra commitment any number of - the government has made extra . commitment any number of areas, the government has made extra - commitment any number of areas, we put more _ commitment any number of areas, we put more money— commitment any number of areas, we put more money in. _ commitment any number of areas, we put more money in, when _ commitment any number of areas, we put more money in, when i _ commitment any number of areas, we put more money in, when i say- commitment any number of areas, we put more money in, when i say more. put more money in, when i say more guite _ put more money in, when i say more quite a _ put more money in, when i say more quite a huge — put more money in, when i say more quite a huge amount— put more money in, when i say more quite a huge amount of— put more money in, when i say more quite a huge amount of money- put more money in, when i say more quite a huge amount of money in- quite a huge amount of money in terms _ quite a huge amount of money in terms of— quite a huge amount of money in terms of the _ quite a huge amount of money in terms of the workforce, - quite a huge amount of money in| terms of the workforce, obviously pressure — terms of the workforce, obviously pressure the _ terms of the workforce, obviously pressure the backlog _ terms of the workforce, obviously pressure the backlog which - terms of the workforce, obviously pressure the backlog which grewl pressure the backlog which grew during _ pressure the backlog which grew during covid _ pressure the backlog which grew during covid is— pressure the backlog which grew during covid is being _ pressure the backlog which grew during covid is being moved - pressure the backlog which grew - during covid is being moved forward and we _ during covid is being moved forward and we need — during covid is being moved forward and we need as— during covid is being moved forward and we need as alex _ during covid is being moved forward and we need as alex is— during covid is being moved forward and we need as alex is already - and we need as alex is already mentioned. _ and we need as alex is already mentioned, committed - and we need as alex is already mentioned, committed to - and we need as alex is already i mentioned, committed to getting and we need as alex is already - mentioned, committed to getting the junior— mentioned, committed to getting the junior doctor — mentioned, committed to getting the junior doctor strikes _ mentioned, committed to getting the junior doctor strikes resolved - mentioned, committed to getting the junior doctor strikes resolved by- junior doctor strikes resolved by association— junior doctor strikes resolved by association and _ junior doctor strikes resolved by association and that _ junior doctor strikes resolved by association and that will - junior doctor strikes resolved by. association and that will inevitably mean _ association and that will inevitably mean the — association and that will inevitably mean the backlog _ association and that will inevitably mean the backlog will— association and that will inevitably mean the backlog will start - association and that will inevitably mean the backlog will start to - association and that will inevitably. mean the backlog will start to come dow“. _ mean the backlog will start to come down. was — mean the backlog will start to come down, was already— mean the backlog will start to come down, was already starting - mean the backlog will start to come down, was already starting to - mean the backlog will start to come down, was already starting to fall. down, was already starting to fall in the _ down, was already starting to fall in the year— down, was already starting to fall in the yearafter_ down, was already starting to fall in the year after covid, _ down, was already starting to fall in the year after covid, and - down, was already starting to fall in the year after covid, and i- down, was already starting to fall| in the year after covid, and i think therefore — in the year after covid, and i think therefore what _ in the year after covid, and i think therefore what we _ in the year after covid, and i think therefore what we need _ in the year after covid, and i think therefore what we need to -

in the year after covid, and i think therefore what we need to see - in the year after covid, and i think therefore what we need to see is| in the year after covid, and i thinkl therefore what we need to see is a continued — therefore what we need to see is a continued amount _ therefore what we need to see is a continued amount of _ therefore what we need to see is a continued amount of support - therefore what we need to see is a continued amount of support to i therefore what we need to see is a i continued amount of support to bring that down _ continued amount of support to bring that down. bioit— continued amount of support to bring that down. ., , . ., , ., that down. not 'ust about money, as ou alwa s that down. notjust about money, as you always say- _ that down. notjust about money, as you always say. know, _ that down. notjust about money, as you always say. know, but _ that down. notjust about money, as you always say. know, but 2010 - that down. notjust about money, as you always say. know, but 2010 the | you always say. know, but 2010 the government — you always say. know, but 2010 the government inherited _ you always say. know, but 2010 the government inherited a _ you always say. know, but 2010 the government inherited a golden - you always say. know, but 2010 the| government inherited a golden egg, we then had a decade of crippling underinvestment, the government trying to catch up on this in recent years and they flipped that, now the longest wait times with the low satisfaction... longest wait times with the low satisfaction. . ._ satisfaction... was at the chief secretary _ satisfaction... was at the chief secretary to — satisfaction... was at the chief secretary to the _ satisfaction... was at the chief secretary to the treasury - satisfaction... was at the chief secretary to the treasury that l satisfaction... was at the chief. secretary to the treasury that said there is no money left?— there is no money left? yeah, i thinkthat _ there is no money left? yeah, i think that is — there is no money left? yeah, i think that is the _ there is no money left? yeah, i think that is the most - there is no money left? yeah, i think that is the most over - think that is the most over exaggerated and misunderstood note in history and i think he wished he hadn't but nevertheless we had a very effective nhs that worked well. part of a problem must be spent in the wrong places and preventing dominant cutting public health means people present with much more

significant two it is worse for their lives. significant underinvestment for a decade, we are still paying the price for that and that's why we have huge workforce gap as well, so if we stack the 13 years of labour government versus the last 13 years, i know which i think will be better for the the last 13 years, i know which i think will be betterfor the nhs the last 13 years, i know which i think will be better for the nhs and what listeners need as well.- what listeners need as well. hello, colin. are what listeners need as well. hello, colin- are you _ what listeners need as well. hello, colin. are you there? _ what listeners need as well. hello, colin. are you there? you - what listeners need as well. hello, colin. are you there? you are - what listeners need as well. hello, colin. are you there? you are on, | colin. are you there? you are on, what would you like to see? hagar colin. are you there? you are on, what would you like to see? how to show our what would you like to see? how to show your run _ what would you like to see? how to show your run so _ what would you like to see? how to show your run so well— what would you like to see? how to show your run so well that - what would you like to see? how to show your run so well that it - what would you like to see? how to show your run so well that it can . show your run so well that it can afford _ show your run so well that it can afford to — show your run so well that it can afford to pay doctors, nurses proximally double what we pay them here? _ proximally double what we pay them here? ,, . . proximally double what we pay them here? ,, ., ., , here? starting a little bit with the revious here? starting a little bit with the previous question, _ here? starting a little bit with the previous question, i _ here? starting a little bit with the previous question, i would - here? starting a little bit with the previous question, i would think. here? starting a little bit with the | previous question, i would think it is quite _ previous question, i would think it is quite interesting _ previous question, i would think it is quite interesting to— previous question, i would think it is quite interesting to note - previous question, i would think it is quite interesting to note that i is quite interesting to note that the recent— is quite interesting to note that the recent kings— is quite interesting to note that the recent kings one _ is quite interesting to note that. the recent kings one comparison is quite interesting to note that - the recent kings one comparison with other systems — the recent kings one comparison with other systems actually— the recent kings one comparison with other systems actually said _ the recent kings one comparison with other systems actually said that - the recent kings one comparison with other systems actually said that the i other systems actually said that the nhs modet. — other systems actually said that the nhs model, there _ other systems actually said that the nhs model, there is _ other systems actually said that the nhs model, there is nothing - other systems actually said that the nhs model, there is nothing wrong| nhs model, there is nothing wrong with the _ nhs model, there is nothing wrong with the nhs— nhs model, there is nothing wrong with the nhs model, _ nhs model, there is nothing wrong with the nhs model, but _ nhs model, there is nothing wrong with the nhs model, but we - nhs model, there is nothing wrong

with the nhs model, but we have i with the nhs model, but we have fewer— with the nhs model, but we have fewer doctors, _ with the nhs model, but we have fewer doctors, fewer— with the nhs model, but we have fewer doctors, fewer nurses, - with the nhs model, but we have i fewer doctors, fewer nurses, fewer beds _ fewer doctors, fewer nurses, fewer beds and _ fewer doctors, fewer nurses, fewer beds and fewer _ fewer doctors, fewer nurses, fewer beds and fewer machines _ fewer doctors, fewer nurses, fewer beds and fewer machines and - beds and fewer machines and diagnostic— beds and fewer machines and diagnostic machines. - beds and fewer machines and diagnostic machines. other. beds and fewer machines and - diagnostic machines. other countries including _ diagnostic machines. other countries including australia _ diagnostic machines. other countries including australia and _ diagnostic machines. other countries including australia and many- including australia and many european _ including australia and many european countries - including australia and many european countries simply . including australia and many- european countries simply invest more _ european countries simply invest more the — european countries simply invest more the nhs. _ european countries simply invest more. the nhs, particularly- european countries simply invest more. the nhs, particularly for. more. the nhs, particularly for about— more. the nhs, particularly for about the — more. the nhs, particularly for about the first _ more. the nhs, particularly for about the first eight _ more. the nhs, particularly for about the first eight years - more. the nhs, particularly for about the first eight years of. more. the nhs, particularly forl about the first eight years of the last decade _ about the first eight years of the last decade was _ about the first eight years of the last decade was getting - about the first eight years of the last decade was getting a - about the first eight years of the last decade was getting a rise i about the first eight years of the i last decade was getting a rise every year of— last decade was getting a rise every year of less— last decade was getting a rise every year of less than— last decade was getting a rise every year of less than 1%, _ last decade was getting a rise every year of less than 1%, in _ last decade was getting a rise every year of less than 1%, in comparison| year of less than 1%, in comparison to previous — year of less than 1%, in comparison to previous average _ year of less than 1%, in comparison to previous average of _ year of less than 1%, in comparison to previous average of three - year of less than 1%, in comparison to previous average of three and i year of less than 1%, in comparison to previous average of three and al to previous average of three and a half - _ to previous average of three and a half - 4%. — to previous average of three and a half - 4%. so _ to previous average of three and a half — 4%, so there _ to previous average of three and a half — 4%, so there was— to previous average of three and a half — 4%, so there was really- to previous average of three and al half — 4%, so there was really tight austerity— half — 4%, so there was really tight austerity and — half — 4%, so there was really tight austerity and the _ half — 4%, so there was really tight austerity and the problem - half — 4%, so there was really tight austerity and the problem is, - austerity and the problem is, training — austerity and the problem is, training doctors— austerity and the problem is, training doctors are - austerity and the problem is, i training doctors are developing systems— training doctors are developing systems within _ training doctors are developing systems within the _ training doctors are developing systems within the nhs - training doctors are developing systems within the nhs takesi training doctors are developing| systems within the nhs takes a training doctors are developing - systems within the nhs takes a long time. _ systems within the nhs takes a long time. so _ systems within the nhs takes a long time. so you — systems within the nhs takes a long time. so you need _ systems within the nhs takes a long time, so you need a _ systems within the nhs takes a long time, so you need a consistent - time, so you need a consistent commitment. _ time, so you need a consistent commitment, not _ time, so you need a consistent commitment, not having - time, so you need a consistent commitment, not having it - time, so you need a consistenti commitment, not having it tight time, so you need a consistent - commitment, not having it tight bell and suddenly— commitment, not having it tight bell and suddenly expecting _ commitment, not having it tight bell and suddenly expecting heroes - commitment, not having it tight bell and suddenly expecting heroes lotsi and suddenly expecting heroes lots of money. — and suddenly expecting heroes lots of money. can— and suddenly expecting heroes lots of money. can you _ and suddenly expecting heroes lots of money, can you turn _ and suddenly expecting heroes lots of money, can you turn it _ and suddenly expecting heroes lots of money, can you turn it around i and suddenly expecting heroes lots| of money, can you turn it around by next _ of money, can you turn it around by next month? — of money, can you turn it around by next month? with _ of money, can you turn it around by next month? with us _ of money, can you turn it around by next month? with us other- of money, can you turn it around byi next month? with us other countries including _ next month? with us other countries including australia _ next month? with us other countries including australia have _ next month? with us other countries including australia have committed i including australia have committed more _ including australia have committed more in _ including australia have committed more in health— including australia have committed more in health spending _ including australia have committed more in health spending over- including australia have committed more in health spending over a - more in health spending over a longer— more in health spending over a longer period _ more in health spending over a longer period of— more in health spending over a longer period of time. - more in health spending over a longer period of time. charging those who _ longer period of time. charging those who can _ longer period of time. charging those who can afford _ longer period of time. charging those who can afford it - longer period of time. charging those who can afford it more i longer period of time. charging those who can afford it more inj longer period of time. charging - those who can afford it more in tax to pay for a decent nhs. tats those who can afford it more in tax to pay for a decent nhs.— those who can afford it more in tax to pay for a decent nhs. as an snp mp, i to pay for a decent nhs. as an snp mp. l completely — to pay for a decent nhs. as an snp mp, i completely believe _ to pay for a decent nhs. as an snp mp, i completely believe in - to pay for a decent nhs. as an snp| mp, i completely believe in charging

people _ mp, i completely believe in charging people who — mp, i completely believe in charging people who earn _ mp, i completely believe in charging people who earn more _ mp, i completely believe in charging people who earn more more - mp, i completely believe in charging people who earn more more tax. - people who earn more more tax. people _ people who earn more more tax. people in — people who earn more more tax. people in scotland _ people who earn more more tax. people in scotland who - people who earn more more tax. people in scotland who are - people who earn more more tax. i people in scotland who are better pay more — people in scotland who are better pay more tax. _ people in scotland who are better pay more tax, people _ people in scotland who are better pay more tax, people who - people in scotland who are better pay more tax, people who belowi people in scotland who are better. pay more tax, people who below the average _ pay more tax, people who below the average wage — pay more tax, people who below the average wage a _ pay more tax, people who below the average wage a less _ pay more tax, people who below the average wage a less tax _ pay more tax, people who below the average wage a less tax than - pay more tax, people who below the average wage a less tax than the - average wage a less tax than the rest of— average wage a less tax than the rest of the — average wage a less tax than the rest ofthe uk. _ average wage a less tax than the rest of the uk, for— average wage a less tax than the rest of the uk, for i'm _ average wage a less tax than the rest of the uk, for i'm sure - average wage a less tax than the rest of the uk, for i'm sure you i rest of the uk, for i'm sure you don't _ rest of the uk, for i'm sure you don't have _ rest of the uk, for i'm sure you don't have a _ rest of the uk, for i'm sure you don't have a system _ rest of the uk, for i'm sure you don't have a system where - rest of the uk, for i'm sure you don't have a system where you | rest of the uk, for i'm sure you . don't have a system where you are expecting — don't have a system where you are expecting people _ don't have a system where you are expecting people to _ don't have a system where you are expecting people to pay— don't have a system where you are expecting people to pay or- don't have a system where you are expecting people to pay or have i expecting people to pay or have insurance — expecting people to pay or have insurance and _ expecting people to pay or have insurance and therefore, - expecting people to pay or have insurance and therefore, that i expecting people to pay or have i insurance and therefore, that was one of— insurance and therefore, that was one of the — insurance and therefore, that was one of the things _ insurance and therefore, that was one of the things in _ insurance and therefore, that was one of the things in the _ insurance and therefore, that was one of the things in the review, i one of the things in the review, people — one of the things in the review, people do— one of the things in the review, people do not— one of the things in the review, people do not get— one of the things in the review, people do not get saddled - one of the things in the review, people do not get saddled byi one of the things in the review, i people do not get saddled by debt for being — people do not get saddled by debt for being ill— people do not get saddled by debt for being ill and _ people do not get saddled by debt for being illand i— people do not get saddled by debt for being ill and i think— people do not get saddled by debt for being ill and i think that - people do not get saddled by debt for being ill and i think that is - people do not get saddled by debt for being ill and i think that is a i for being ill and i think that is a principle — for being ill and i think that is a principle we _ for being ill and i think that is a principle we need _ for being ill and i think that is a principle we need to _ for being ill and i think that is a principle we need to hang - for being ill and i think that is a| principle we need to hang onto. for being ill and i think that is a - principle we need to hang onto. like magnesium — principle we need to hang onto. like magnesium is — principle we need to hang onto. like magnesium is interesting, _ principle we need to hang onto. like magnesium is interesting, the - magnesium is interesting, the government— magnesium is interesting, the government being _ magnesium is interesting, the government being for- magnesium is interesting, the government being for the - magnesium is interesting, the - government being for the majority of health— government being for the majority of health care _ government being for the majority of health care costs _ government being for the majority of health care costs using _ government being for the majority of health care costs using public - health care costs using public money. — health care costs using public money, hospital— health care costs using public money, hospital and - health care costs using publicl money, hospital and specialist health care costs using public - money, hospital and specialist care covered _ money, hospital and specialist care covered if— money, hospital and specialist care covered if a — money, hospital and specialist care covered if a patient _ money, hospital and specialist care covered if a patient is— money, hospital and specialist care covered if a patient is referred - money, hospital and specialist care covered if a patient is referred by. covered if a patient is referred by a gp. _ covered if a patient is referred by a gp. perception— covered if a patient is referred by a gp, perception subsidised - covered if a patient is referred by a gp, perception subsidised at i covered if a patient is referred byj a gp, perception subsidised at an average _ a gp, perception subsidised at an average cost _ a gp, perception subsidised at an average cost of— a gp, perception subsidised at an average cost of $5, _ a gp, perception subsidised at an average cost of $5, however- a gp, perception subsidised at an average cost of $5, however to l a gp, perception subsidised at an. average cost of $5, however to see a gp at— average cost of $5, however to see a gp at a _ average cost of $5, however to see a gp at a standard — average cost of $5, however to see a gp at a standard medical _ average cost of $5, however to see a gp at a standard medical practice, i gp at a standard medical practice, patients— gp at a standard medical practice, patients pay— gp at a standard medical practice, patients pay a _ gp at a standard medical practice, patients pay a fee _ gp at a standard medical practice, patients pay a fee between - gp at a standard medical practice, patients pay a fee between $19 . gp at a standard medical practice, | patients pay a fee between $19 and $55, patients pay a fee between $19 and $55. seeing — patients pay a fee between $19 and $55. seeing a — patients pay a fee between $19 and $55. seeing a gp— patients pay a fee between $19 and $55, seeing a gp at— patients pay a fee between $19 and $55, seeing a gp at an _ patients pay a fee between $19 and $55, seeing a gp at an after- patients pay a fee between $19 and $55, seeing a gp at an after hoursi $55, seeing a gp at an after hours clinic— $55, seeing a gp at an after hours clinic and — $55, seeing a gp at an after hours clinic and cost _ $55, seeing a gp at an after hours clinic and cost $75— $55, seeing a gp at an after hours clinic and cost $75 or _ $55, seeing a gp at an after hours clinic and cost $75 or more. - $55, seeing a gp at an after hours clinic and cost $75 or more. those earning _ clinic and cost $75 or more. those earning below— clinic and cost $75 or more. those earning below a _ clinic and cost $75 or more. those earning below a certain _ clinic and cost $75 or more. those earning below a certain income i clinic and cost $75 or more. those i earning below a certain income may qualify— earning below a certain income may

qualify for— earning below a certain income may qualify for subsidised _ earning below a certain income may qualify for subsidised gp _ qualify for subsidised gp appointments. _ qualify for subsidised gp appointments. stephenl qualify for subsidised gp - appointments. stephen hammond qualify for subsidised gp _ appointments. stephen hammond very aware _ appointments. stephen hammond very aware of— appointments. stephen hammond very aware of any— appointments. stephen hammond very aware of any deadlines _ appointments. stephen hammond very aware of any deadlines on _ appointments. stephen hammond very aware of any deadlines on any- appointments. stephen hammond very aware of any deadlines on any thing - aware of any deadlines on any thing he says. _ aware of any deadlines on any thing he says. do— aware of any deadlines on any thing he says. do you _ aware of any deadlines on any thing he says, do you think— aware of any deadlines on any thing he says, do you think it _ aware of any deadlines on any thing he says, do you think it is _ he says, do you think it is conceivable _ he says, do you think it is conceivable and _ he says, do you think it is conceivable and desirablej he says, do you think it is i conceivable and desirable in he says, do you think it is - conceivable and desirable in any shape _ conceivable and desirable in any shape or— conceivable and desirable in any shape or form _ conceivable and desirable in any shape or form to _ conceivable and desirable in any shape or form to have _ conceivable and desirable in any shape or form to have some - conceivable and desirable in anyi shape or form to have some kind conceivable and desirable in any. shape or form to have some kind of payment _ shape or form to have some kind of payment to— shape or form to have some kind of payment to see _ shape or form to have some kind of payment to see a _ shape or form to have some kind of payment to see a gp? _ shape or form to have some kind of payment to see a gp? no, - shape or form to have some kind of payment to see a gp?— payment to see a gp? no, i don't. and i payment to see a gp? no, i don't. and i would — payment to see a gp? no, i don't. and i would not _ payment to see a gp? no, i don't. and i would not support _ payment to see a gp? no, i don't. and i would not support that. - payment to see a gp? no, i don't. and i would not support that. we l and i would not support that. we have raised a very interesting question, when we talk about money being invested with the amount being spent, you've got to be quite careful about comparisons about how much each country are spending because in comparison with some of our european neighbours who have social insurance schemes in place, the reality is that the uk spending on health has gone from 27% of our national income to 44% of national income now and actually is absolutely right it is free, we also talked earlier, i think it's right that the private sector can work alongside and deliver for the that the private sector can work alongside and deliverfor the public sector, public ends which we want to happen. i don't see that, don't say

are charging for gps. what you do raise and i talked to my gps, the people who book an appointment are used to book an appointment and then donna attend, the ability to use both face—to—face and telephone and zoom appointments, reducing the backlog and accessibility to gps that we need to talk about much more, and much more progress with that, and... fire more, and much more progress with that. and---— that, and... are limited because of, because richard _ that, and... are limited because of, because richard and _ that, and... are limited because of, because richard and ken _ that, and... are limited because of, because richard and ken is - that, and... are limited because of, because richard and ken is comingl that, and... are limited because of, l because richard and ken is coming in to talk about this particular issue. i think i'm right in saying that, tell me i am?— i think i'm right in saying that, tell me i am? yes. we are losing millions and _ tell me i am? yes. we are losing millions and millions _ tell me i am? yes. we are losing millions and millions of - tell me i am? yes. we are losing millions and millions of pounds i millions and millions of pounds because — millions and millions of pounds because of notjust millions and millions of pounds because of not just gps millions and millions of pounds because of notjust gps or hospitals, do you think that it would — hospitals, do you think that it would be _ hospitals, do you think that it would be advantageous for people between _ would be advantageous for people between working age of 18 to 16 pay

more _ between working age of 18 to 16 pay more to— between working age of 18 to 16 pay more to reduce their rate. n0, more to reduce their rate. no, that's rrot _ more to reduce their rate. no, that's not something - more to reduce their rate. no, that's not something i - more to reduce their rate. iirr, that's not something i would support. i haven't seen particular evidence that that would have a huge impact, we want people of course if they value their nhs and the model and principle that we know the british public do, then we all have to exercise a degree of propriety and how we use it... like my consistent part of an honest debate that we need to have? think about? i wouldn't say that, is in my view. we are having an honest debate. we have experienced politicians who have touched the system in some way and if we want to say we think that is the right model we can say and of all three of us say we don't, that's probably because we honestly hold those views and at the end of the day there are things... those views and at the end of the day there are things. . ._ day there are things... sorry oritins day there are things... sorry origins pp — day there are things... sorry origins up to _ day there are things... sorry origins up to about - day there are things... sorry origins up to about sajid - day there are things... sorry| origins up to about sajid javid day there are things... sorry .

origins up to about sajid javid in origins up to about sajid javid in this article and interview yesterday said he talked a lot people behind the scenes across the political spectrum who kind of thing we should look at all sorts of stuff like this but your freight as one leading politician once said to actually talk about it in public because it is politically explosive. i am talk about it in public because it is politically explosive.- is politically explosive. i am not havin: is politically explosive. i am not having those — is politically explosive. i am not having those conversations - is politically explosive. i am not - having those conversations because i don't hold those views. i don't think we need another royal commission, if only some things were done for the nhs, they could have done, he was the health secretary, and there is to be more conversations why other people to help take some of the heat out of it. ithink help take some of the heat out of it. i think that is nonsense. at the end of the day, sajid javid is in a very difficult situation, got a record in the nhs he cannot defend because as finger prints are all over it, so because it's convenient to trying to get into the long grass. what i'm saying now is, as weiss aside, there are practical things we can do in the immediate term, then much more important and of long term workforce plans we can do that is much more important than

a royal commission on type of activities rather than as i sayjust kicking everything to the long grass. kicking everything to the long crass. ~ ., , grass. 7.6 outpatient points were not grass. 7.6 outpatient points were rrot attended- _ grass. 7.6 outpatient points were not attended. that _ grass. 7.6 outpatient points were not attended. that is _ grass. 7.6 outpatient points were not attended. that is what - grass. 7.6 outpatient points were not attended. that is what you're j not attended. that is what you're saying. not attended. that is what you're sa in. . not attended. that is what you're sa int. . . not attended. that is what you're sa int. . , . not attended. that is what you're saint. . . not attended. that is what you're sa in. . . . saying. that is correct. if you add a tenner on _ saying. that is correct. if you add a tenner on to _ saying. that is correct. if you add a tenner on to all— saying. that is correct. if you add a tenner on to all those, - saying. that is correct. if you add a tenner on to all those, we - saying. that is correct. if you add a tenner on to all those, we are i a tenner on to all those, we are talking — a tenner on to all those, we are talking quite a lot of money. a lot of money— talking quite a lot of money. a lot of money being wasted and we could use that _ of money being wasted and we could use that money to train new doctors, new nurses. — use that money to train new doctors, new nurses, offset that, and i think this is— new nurses, offset that, and i think this is an _ new nurses, offset that, and i think this is an opportunity that we should — this is an opportunity that we should really explore. there are other— should really explore. there are other countries in the world that have _ other countries in the world that have a _ other countries in the world that have a floor see, one of the best systems— have a floor see, one of the best systems was in malta a number of years— systems was in malta a number of years ago— systems was in malta a number of years ago and they had a small see in their— years ago and they had a small see in their services were a lot better than _ in their services were a lot better than the — in their services were a lot better than the uk. ijust think that we

should _ than the uk. ijust think that we should consider it. than the uk. i just think that we should consider it.— than the uk. i just think that we should consider it. how would you means tested? _ should consider it. how would you means tested? basically, - should consider it. how would you means tested? basically, how - should consider it. how would you means tested? basically, how do | should consider it. how would you i means tested? basically, how do you means tested? basically, how do you mean is this — means tested? basically, how do you mean is this prescriptions? _ means tested? basically, how do you mean is this prescriptions? if - mean is this prescriptions? if you're — mean is this prescriptions? if you're between the age of 18 and 60 then leisure and social services then— then leisure and social services then you — then leisure and social services then you would pay prescriptions, and that— then you would pay prescriptions, and that is— then you would pay prescriptions, and that is the same in which i would — and that is the same in which i would to— and that is the same in which i would to save output... that is the same _ would to save output... that is the same mechanism you could use to minimise — same mechanism you could use to minimise the rates. i think we can io minimise the rates. i think we can go to— minimise the rates. i think we can go to another caller straightaway. where _ go to another caller straightaway. where are — go to another caller straightaway. where are you, david? south-west france. i where are you, david? south-west france- l was _ where are you, david? south-west france. i was weather _ where are you, david? south-west france. i was weather today? i france. i was weather today? overcast. not too bad. carries a red wine delicious. _

overcast. not too bad. carries a red wine delicious. tell— overcast. not too bad. carries a red wine delicious. tell us _ overcast. not too bad. carries a red wine delicious. tell us about - overcast. not too bad. carries a red wine delicious. tell us about the i wine delicious. tell us about the french system? _ wine delicious. tell us about the french system? because - wine delicious. tell us about the french system? because i i wine delicious. tell us about the french system? because i can i wine delicious. tell us about the i french system? because i can afford ip and insurance _ french system? because i can afford ip and insurance fee _ french system? because i can afford ip and insurance fee every _ french system? because i can afford ip and insurance fee every month. i ip and insurance fee every month. people who don't have the wherewithal or absolutely free, however i had a problem with my wrist, phone three gp, got an appointment the following day, two weeks later an appointment with the anaesthetist and the surgeon, the operation was done three weeks after that, i paid nothing, and why is that, i paid nothing, and why is that possible in france and impossible in the uk? obviously it is a choice of _ impossible in the uk? obviously it is a choice of what _ impossible in the uk? obviously it is a choice of what kind _ impossible in the uk? obviously it is a choice of what kind of- impossible in the uk? obviously it is a choice of what kind of system| is a choice of what kind of system you have — is a choice of what kind of system you have. my husband is chairman and they also— you have. my husband is chairman and they also have an insurance system but the _ they also have an insurance system but the 15% — they also have an insurance system but the 15% of the costa actually picked _ but the 15% of the costa actually picked up — but the 15% of the costa actually picked up by the patient and if that something small and simple it may not be _ something small and simple it may not be very— something small and simple it may not be very much at all but if it is a complicated treatment that can still mount up critically if it was something like cancer. the previous

caller— something like cancer. the previous caller talking about charging for attendance, one of the big issues we have in— attendance, one of the big issues we have in the _ attendance, one of the big issues we have in the uk is that we respond to demand _ have in the uk is that we respond to demand and not need and our system is often _ demand and not need and our system is often demand driven and that can be by— is often demand driven and that can be by the _ is often demand driven and that can be by the worried, who can afford to pay? _ be by the worried, who can afford to pay? have _ be by the worried, who can afford to pay? have lots of people out there often _ pay? have lots of people out there often in _ pay? have lots of people out there often in deprived communities who are already not seeking health attention and not going to screening so putting _ attention and not going to screening so putting extra barriers to then as an issue. _ so putting extra barriers to then as an issue. we — so putting extra barriers to then as an issue, we don't have prescription charges _ an issue, we don't have prescription charges in _ an issue, we don't have prescription charges in scotland and we do a lot to try— charges in scotland and we do a lot to try and _ charges in scotland and we do a lot to try and reduce... the system that uses _ to try and reduce... the system that uses things— to try and reduce... the system that uses things like text, any of your college _ uses things like text, any of your college you have an appointment, they will— college you have an appointment, they will get a taxi couple of days before _ they will get a taxi couple of days before going remember you have an appointment and if it doesn't suit you. _ appointment and if it doesn't suit you, phone this number. so there is things— you, phone this number. so there is things we _ you, phone this number. so there is things we can do to reduce dnas without— things we can do to reduce dnas without suddenly introducing charges which become yet another barrier and when _ which become yet another barrier and when people present in plates with any condition, it is always more

expensive — any condition, it is always more expensive to treat and it is the same — expensive to treat and it is the same with— expensive to treat and it is the same with having prescription charges. _ same with having prescription charges, there is plenty of evidence showing _ charges, there is plenty of evidence showing that people often ration which _ showing that people often ration which drugs they pick up from a prescription and that can actually lead to— prescription and that can actually lead to presenting with uncontrolled disease _ lead to presenting with uncontrolled disease or— lead to presenting with uncontrolled disease or having the sequelae of a disease _ disease or having the sequelae of a disease that is more expensive to deal with— disease that is more expensive to deal with in the end. if disease that is more expensive to deal with in the end.— deal with in the end. if you are unable to _ deal with in the end. if you are unable to afford... _ deal with in the end. if you are unable to afford... to - deal with in the end. if you are unable to afford... to pay i deal with in the end. if you are unable to afford... to pay the l unable to afford... to pay the insurance. — unable to afford... to pay the insurance, you _ unable to afford... to pay the insurance, you get _ unable to afford... to pay the insurance, you get cmu, i unable to afford... to pay the l insurance, you get cmu, which unable to afford... to pay the i insurance, you get cmu, which is free health care, totally completely free. we have a neighbour who had cancer, she was treating over about a five year period, had an ambulance to the hospital twice a week, paid absolutely nothing, pays no insurance, known fees... the pub

when you're _ insurance, known fees... the pub when you're betting _ insurance, known fees... the pub when you're betting based - insurance, known fees... the pub when you're betting based on - insurance, known fees... the pub i when you're betting based on means testing _ when you're betting based on means testing of— when you're betting based on means testing ofjobs of a cliff edge, people — testing ofjobs of a cliff edge, people who are just above the threshold but for him having the insurance — threshold but for him having the insurance is quite challenging so that is— insurance is quite challenging so that is the — insurance is quite challenging so that is the issue, whether with benefits— that is the issue, whether with benefits or prescription charges or anything _ benefits or prescription charges or anything else, people whojust fall the wrong side of the means test can actually— the wrong side of the means test can actually have real difficulty. thank ou, the actually have real difficulty. thank you. they see _ actually have real difficulty. thank you. they see a — actually have real difficulty. thank you, they see a glass _ actually have real difficulty. thank you, they see a glass of _ actually have real difficulty. thank you, they see a glass of red - actually have real difficulty. thank you, they see a glass of red wine | actually have real difficulty. thank| you, they see a glass of red wine is good for you medical professionals and then they keep changing their mind. ., and then they keep changing their mind-_ what - and then they keep changing their mind._ what is - and then they keep changing their mind._ what is the l mind. indeed we do. what is the latest on that _ mind. indeed we do. what is the latest on that one? _ mind. indeed we do. what is the latest on that one? for- mind. indeed we do. what is the latest on that one? for breast i latest on that one? for breast cancer every _ latest on that one? for breast cancer every glass _ latest on that one? for breast cancer every glass contributes latest on that one? for breast i cancer every glass contributes to your wrist, — cancer every glass contributes to your wrist, so don't fall for that. may— your wrist, so don't fall for that. may i _ your wrist, so don't fall for that. may i use — your wrist, so don't fall for that. may i use to _ your wrist, so don't fall for that. may i use to be good for us and then they said _ may i use to be good for us and then they said it— may i use to be good for us and then they said it is in the netizen and then— they said it is in the netizen and then it — they said it is in the netizen and then it is — they said it is in the netizen and then it is a _ they said it is in the netizen and then it is. a glass of red wine, prescribe _ then it is. a glass of red wine, prescribe every so often? i�*m then it is. a glass of red wine, prescribe every so often? i'm not a doctor but — prescribe every so often? i'm not a doctor but i — prescribe every so often? i'm not a doctor but i think _ prescribe every so often? i'm not a doctor but i think it _ prescribe every so often? i'm not a doctor but i think it is _ prescribe every so often? i'm not a doctor but i think it is good - prescribe every so often? i'm not a doctor but i think it is good for- doctor but i think it is good for nre _ doctor but i think it is good for me. , . doctor but i think it is good for me. �* ., ., , , doctor but i think it is good for me. ., ., , , me. jean in canterbury, good morning- _ me. jean in canterbury, good morning. you'll— me. jean in canterbury, good morning. you'll in _ me. jean in canterbury, good morning. you'll in morning, i j me. jean in canterbury, good - morning. you'll in morning, i wanted to ask, when the doctors do their training and they have the seven years training, do they then came

out forfive or seven years training, do they then came out for five or seven years after to actually stay in the uk to work because that is, going off in droves, the uk, could we build at ten and what we pay towards their training? irate ten and what we pay towards their trainina ? ~ ., ., ., ., ., training? we hear a lot and we have ossibl training? we hear a lot and we have possibly heard _ training? we hear a lot and we have possibly heard conversations - training? we hear a lot and we have possibly heard conversations on - training? we hear a lot and we havej possibly heard conversations on this programme with the doctor and nursing strike we've been addressing all these issues a lot recently, but some doctors say they are so disillusioned they are considering going to new zealand, others its family say they have gone to new zealand, australia, you think there should be some kind of contract whereby they have to wait a bit? yes. after we have supported them with training, it would be nice for them _ with training, it would be nice for them to— with training, it would be nice for them to actually be signed up to say they witi— them to actually be signed up to say they will work in our uk

hospitals... its they will work in our uk hospitals. . ._ they will work in our uk hositals... �* ., ., hospitals... a lot about something similar and — hospitals... a lot about something similar and stopping _ hospitals... a lot about something similar and stopping doctors - hospitals... a lot about something similar and stopping doctors for i hospitals... a lot about something similar and stopping doctors for a | similar and stopping doctors for a decent amount of time going private? going to the private sector? what you think about that? yes. going to the private sector? what you think about that?— you think about that? yes, i get what ou you think about that? yes, i get what you mean, _ you think about that? yes, i get what you mean, it _ you think about that? yes, i get what you mean, it would - you think about that? yes, i get what you mean, it would be - you think about that? yes, i get | what you mean, it would be nice because it is the nhs that and we do need that. soto build the end as well, but to actually cut legally to say... well, but to actually cut legally to sa ~ '::::'~ say... do think it will make 100? the nhs? _ say. .. do think it will make 100? the nhs? i _ say... do think it will make 100? the nhs? |thought_ say... do think it will make 100? the nhs? i thought you - say... do think it will make 100? the nhs? i thought you went - say... do think it will make 100?. the nhs? i thought you went very auiet the nhs? i thought you went very quiet there. _ the nhs? i thought you went very quiet there. i _ the nhs? i thought you went very quiet there, i did _ the nhs? i thought you went very quiet there, i did not _ the nhs? i thought you went very quiet there, i did not hear - the nhs? i thought you went very quiet there, i did not hear the - the nhs? i thought you went very | quiet there, i did not hear the rest of that. i quiet there, i did not hear the rest of that. , . ~ quiet there, i did not hear the rest of that. , . ,, i, quiet there, i did not hear the rest of that. , . ,, y., ., , of that. i will be back with you any second. of that. i will be back with you any second- get _ of that. i will be back with you any second. get in _ of that. i will be back with you any second. get in touch. _ of that. i will be back with you any second. get in touch. let - of that. i will be back with you any second. get in touch. let me - of that. i will be back with you any. second. get in touch. let me say... don't go anywhere. the conversation with our mps is continuing on five live and bbc sounds. if you are watching on bbc two or bbc news, the

new metropolitan police commissioner is answering questions from the london assembly. the national health service marks its 75th anniversary today, but there are warnings it will not be around until 100 years without investment and change. the landmark todayis investment and change. the landmark today is being celebrated with a series of events including a service at westminster abbey but as key figures gather for the service it's clear the nhs faces huge challenges. the chief executive of nhs england, amanda pritchard, has been speaking this morning about the anniversary and issues facing the health service. , ., , and issues facing the health service. , ., service. the 75th birthday today, it's obviously _ service. the 75th birthday today, it's obviously a _ service. the 75th birthday today, it's obviously a moment - service. the 75th birthday today, it's obviously a moment to - service. the 75th birthday today, it's obviously a moment to look. service. the 75th birthday today, - it's obviously a moment to look back but also to look forward. i think there is a remarkable consensus today in what people are saying about the nhs. there is a remarkable

consensus about just the about the nhs. there is a remarkable consensus aboutjust the admiration people have for our staff and what they do every single day. there is a consensus i think that there will need to be continuous investment in the nhs but there is also consensus that we will need to keep reforming and changing and that's what the nhs has been doing for 75 years. we are no longer the nhs of tb, the iron lung, now we are genomic medicine and virtual ward blood test for cancer. the nhs is continually expanding, notjust doing more but actually doing different. so we have some huge challenges. no one will pull their punches on that. we just talked about it in terms of waiting lists and that's why we are doing so much now in terms of tackling, recovering, inevitably. that is not an overnight thing. it will take many years. we said the pandemic would be at least a five year

challenge. we are onto that but we are not stopping there and have to look to the long—term future. working on prevention, new technology and new treatments, that's just as important. 0ur reporter, ellie price has been outside westminster abbey ahead of the special service there to mark the anniversary. she spoke to may parsons. she's a nurse in buckinghamshire, and administered the first coronavirus vaccine in the world outside of medical trials back in december 2020. it's a huge moment, obviously. that's when the second wave of the pandemic was going through our communities globally, notjust in the uk. and it was something that was worse than the first wave. you can imagine the devastation that the pandemic has wreaked through the communities. the covid vaccine and the emergence of it and the fact we were able to roll it out was a huge beacon of hope for everybody, that there is an end to it and the start

of the beginning of the end of the pandemic. of the beginning of the end of the andemic. ., ., of the beginning of the end of the andemic. ., ._ , ., of the beginning of the end of the andemic. ., , ., ., , _ pandemic. today is a happy day celebrating _ pandemic. today is a happy day celebrating an _ pandemic. today is a happy day celebrating an enormous - pandemic. today is a happy day - celebrating an enormous institution, the nhs. what is your role today because i know you have a significant one.— significant one. i'm really privileged _ significant one. i'm really privileged and _ significant one. i'm really privileged and honouredl significant one. i'm really. privileged and honoured to significant one. i'm really - privileged and honoured to be presenting to the 1500 people that are joining presenting to the 1500 people that arejoining us presenting to the 1500 people that are joining us today the george cross award that the late queen elizabeth awarded us last year. i'm going to be carrying the george cross to the procession and says it's a great testament of the recognition of the royal family and government, of the people in the uk of the significant contribution of the nhs and its people to the ending of the pandemic. really happy and honoured. ., ., of the pandemic. really happy and honoured. ., . , of the pandemic. really happy and honoured. ., ., , . honoured. you are very cheerful because obviously _ honoured. you are very cheerful because obviously there - honoured. you are very cheerful because obviously there is - honoured. you are very cheerful. because obviously there is criticism levelled at the institution. but it's about the people today. absolutely. the nhs has been going 75 years and i don't know if anyone else can remember what it was like

without the nhs. the nhs has been here 75 years. it's an institution that all across the globe wanted to have one. it has been serving its people 75 years, a tremendous amount of technology, the care it has given to communities and the access to health care. the nhs can't be great without its people. so the enormous amount of huge contribution, the 1.3 million nhs staff and volunteers and the multidisciplinary highly clinically trained people is what makes the nhs great. for me, the responsibility for me is to represent those amazing people who give so much to our communities and served daily. meanwhile the prince and princess of wales have been at a tea party to celebrate the 75th

anniversary of the nhs. they met with current and former staff of the health service, including the first person born under the nhs. aneira thomas was born in carmarthenshire at1 minute past midnight on 5july 19118. she was named after the nhs founder and then health minister aneurin bevan, and went on to work in the nhs herself as a mental—health nurse. every maternity ward in the country was waiting for the first baby. the doctor that was delivering me kept looking at the clock. she was waiting to hear the words plush, but all she heard was, hold on! a parliamentary aide has described how she was asked to sit on an mp slap and felt like she had no choice but to do so. 25—year—old ellie varley said the male mp — who has since been suspended after separate allegations — said she was "very angry" about what she described as a "predatory culture" in the house of commons. she is one of six staffers who has spoken to bbc newsnight about inappropriate behaviour in westminster. newsnight 5 uk editor sima kotecha

has been speaking to them. the house of commons is the heart of democracy, where laws are made and publicly elected officials represent constituents and should therefore uphold the highest standards of behaviour. but now more allegations of sexual misconduct have called into question the morals and ethics of some of them. this into question the morals and ethics of some of them.— of some of them. this is a problem that transcends _ of some of them. this is a problem that transcends party _ of some of them. this is a problem that transcends party politics, - of some of them. this is a problem that transcends party politics, it. that transcends party politics, it transcends your position of power. it transcends your gender. this is something that everyone will have a story of. every staff will know someone who has experienced this. le is one of six people we have spoken to who work or have worked in the commons until recently. —— ellie is one of six people. they all say the culture has changed since the me too movement, and there is a predatory current culture where some people believe they can behave in

appropriate levers that i wouldn't recommend it as a safe place for men or women. . , . recommend it as a safe place for men or women. , , , , ., or women. interesting, yes, but not health . or women. interesting, yes, but not healthy. especially _ or women. interesting, yes, but not healthy. especially working - or women. interesting, yes, but not healthy. especially working for - or women. interesting, yes, but not healthy. especially working for an i healthy. especially working for an mp directly. if a young person i knew _ mp directly. if a young person i knew wanted to work for the house of commons _ knew wanted to work for the house of commons it— knew wanted to work for the house of commons it would come with a whole list of— commons it would come with a whole list of warnings about how to stay safe, _ list of warnings about how to stay safe, who — list of warnings about how to stay safe, who not to hang with and where not to _ safe, who not to hang with and where not to go _ safe, who not to hang with and where not to no. safe, who not to hang with and where nottoao. , not to go. ellie says she was asked to sit on the _ not to go. ellie says she was asked to sit on the lap — not to go. ellie says she was asked to sit on the lap of _ not to go. ellie says she was asked to sit on the lap of an _ not to go. ellie says she was asked to sit on the lap of an mp - not to go. ellie says she was asked to sit on the lap of an mp and - not to go. ellie says she was asked to sit on the lap of an mp and felt. to sit on the lap of an mp and felt she had no choice other than to do so to get him off her case. he kept sa inc , so to get him off her case. he kept saying. come _ so to get him off her case. he kept saying. come and _ so to get him off her case. he kept saying, come and sit _ so to get him off her case. he kept saying, come and sit on _ so to get him off her case. he kept saying, come and sit on my - so to get him off her case. he kept saying, come and sit on my lap. i l saying, come and sit on my lap. i said, ifind, thank you. i'm happy standing. i don't want to sit on your lap. he was so persistent i just thought, i'm going to sit on your lap because you are clearly not getting, i don't want to sit on your lap. it is quite weird to ask. i sat on his lap for what was probably a minute. and was then, right, nice to see you, i'm off. you brush it off. it becomes part of what comes with the job. it becomes part of what comes with the 'ob. ~ . it becomes part of what comes with the 'ob. ~ , ., ., ., , the job. the member of parliament is one of a number— the job. the member of parliament is one of a number of— the job. the member of parliament is one of a number of mps _ the job. the member of parliament is one of a number of mps to _ the job. the member of parliament is one of a number of mps to have i the job. the member of parliament is one of a number of mps to have been suspended after separate

allegations. in 2018 parliament set “p allegations. in 2018 parliament set up the independent complaints and grievances scheme to investigate complaints about sexual misconduct but some feel the process is too slow. in a statement, the house of commons said... those we spoke to hope change is possible, where people in authority speak out against bad behaviour. however, most believe some in senior positions turn a blind eye instead. i regularly saw this, where they see something going on but pretend they haven't. they do this for an easy

life. in my eyes this is where the problem lies because those making an impact are not speaking up. sima kotecha, impact are not speaking up. sima kotecha. bbc _ impact are not speaking up. sima kotecha, bbc news, _ impact are not speaking up. sima kotecha, bbc news, westminster. schools in england face further disruption today, as teachers in the national education union strike over pay. the government says its offer is fair and reasonable, but it has been rejected by all four education unions, who've warned that further strike action in the autumn is likely if the dispute remains unresolved. the broadcaster fiona phillips has revealed she's been diagnosed with alzheimer's. the former gmtv host — who's 62 — says she found out last year after suffering months of brain fog and anxiety. ms phillips says she wants to share her story to help others. metropolitan police commissioner sir mark rowley is being questioned by members of the london assembly this morning. members are quizzing him about the casey review, which found evidence of racism, misogyny and homophobia

in the metropolitan police. he was also asked about the case of stephen lawrence, the black teenager who was murdered in south london in 1993, after a recent bbc investigation publicly named a major suspect in the case — matthew white, who died in 2021 — after the met police seriously mishandled key inquiries related to him. let's hear what sir mark rowley said. it's impossible for me to put myself in the shoes of the lawrence family and the other family and friends of theirs. who are so affected by this. but i can completely understand their lack of trust and their frustration and cynicism. the sad truth is that if you do such a bad

job after investigation in its first weeks and months, you lose evidence that some of it can never be recovered. you miss forensic opportunities, you miss witness opportunities, you miss witness opportunities and the memories of witnesses degrade. there has been an immense amount of effort into the last 20 years with partial success but only partial success. but i don't want to pretend that you can necessarily always catch up the ground that you have so badly lost in the early days. that's what makes it so egregious and makes the error so egregious, that they are not repairable always. and i know some top detectives who have moved heaven and earth to try to cover ground and have made some progress but haven't been able to recover it all. i will

always keep hope that we will find a new opportunity but i'm not going to promise we definitely will because i'm not going to make a promise i can't honour. in terms of the accountability point, it's a matter of public record, there has been a big investigation in relation to the leadership of the official investigations in the early 905. the iopc pass that evidence to the cps several years ago and i know they are in advanced stages of considering whether that, whether those awful errors in the original investigation, are they so grave that the leaders who made those decisions should face criminal charges. that is a legaljudgment around the offence of misconduct in public office that the cps are thinking about at the moment. that's not for me to decide but i of course understand the sentiment. but there is a process to see if there is, if

it is reasonable to do a criminal prosecution and the cps will make a decision on that. king charles will be presented with scotland's crown jewels in edinburgh later in a ceremony to mark his coronation. the national thanksgiving service at st giles' cathedral will also feature a new sword named after the late queen elizabeth. graham satchell reports. redford barracks and the marvellously named shetland pony called corporal cruachan iv is getting ready for today's duties. let's get your uniform on, get you ready for work, buddy. corporal cruachan is the regimental mascot for the royal regiment of scotland and will be leading the people's procession ahead of today's service. it's very humbling to be part of the parade itself, especially representing the regiment as a pony major. and what about cruachan? well, it's part of hisjob. he likes to show off. i mean, there's no better time to show off than in front of all the crowds. across edinburgh and

more preparations. the magnificent greys of the royal scots dragoon guards will also be part of the procession today. it seems so fitting that as the senior and only cavalry regiment of scotland, that we are playing a part and that we are leading that element of the parade. it's a huge privilege. a small vignette that is not by contrivance. the horses on parade on the day will be monarch, regent, prince and duke. the last time edinburgh saw a national service of dedication was 1953, the streets crowded with people for queen elizabeth. archive: now, the scottish crown is offered to the queen. _ the centrepiece of the service, both then and today, the presentation of the honours of scotland, the oldest crown jewels in britain, dating back to the 151105. king charles and queen camilla at a garden party at the palace of holyroodhouse in edinburgh. the king has always had a deep

affection for scotland. he supports a range of charities and foundations. but what do people here think of him? polls suggests there is much less enthusiasm for the monarchy in scotland than other parts of the uk. almost three quarters of scots, for example, said they didn't care about the coronation. at the moment i think there's something of the order of 46% support for the monarchy, less than in england. i think honestly the monarchy is simply taken as a given, as part of the routine environment of british life, and it's no big deal. st giles' cathedral and a final rehearsal for the service, which will be full of music. the ayoub sisters, sarah and laura, will be performing a medley of traditional scottish melodies. we've literally grown up with these several tunes and over the years

we've kind of woven them into a medley. it was the first single we have released as the ayoub sisters, and kind of the story of that continues as we get to perform it at the service today. it's a huge honour to be performing at this service. we know his majesty is a cellist, a keen musician, so for us to contribute the way that we love, with music and music being the forefront of the celebration, is such a deep honour. today's service may be greeted with complete indifference by many in scotland. for others it will be a symbolic reminder of the union of the scottish and english crowns in 1603, and the cement that binds the peoples of these islands together. live now to james shaw who is in edinburgh for us. an important day for some, james. that's right. there is a real

atmosphere building here right in the centre of the old town of edinburgh. the streets are filling up, the sun is shining here outside st giles' cathedral where this service of thanksgiving and dedication is going to take place. there is also a little demonstration just along the street by a group of republicans with yellow flags, black letters on them saying not to my king. there was an interesting little moment as the royal company of archers, the ceremonial bodyguard that king charles house, the monarch housein that king charles house, the monarch house in scotland, they walked past the demonstration and there was quite a lot of shouting of not my king as that happened. it gives you a sense of the different points of view that there are in scotland. some people, as was suggested in that the tea, are really indifferent to the royal family. that the tea, are really indifferent to the royalfamily. some people are strongly against it, and in favour notjust strongly against it, and in favour not just of a strongly against it, and in favour notjust of a republic but an

independent republic, independent scotland. and still a lot of people who have affection for the crown and value the institution of the monarchy. i think what we will see today, alongside those small protests, is a lot of people on this street, the royal mile, this historic street that runs from edinburgh castle at the top down to the palace of holyroodhouse, the royal residence in scotland. these streets will be packed with people, a lot of tourists, but local people, people from edinburgh and perhaps other parts of scotland as well. i think there will be an astonishing and quite excitable atmosphere here. this will be the chance for people who support the monarchy to show that support, celebrate the fact that support, celebrate the fact that king charles is the pneumonic of united kingdom, and that service will be a showcase of scottish talent and scottish creativity. —— king charles is the new monarch. and

it will be a spectacle as well. james shaw in edinburgh. the water regulator 0fwat has warned that investors in thames water appear to be reluctant to make more funds available. the company is struggling with debts of an estimated 1a billion pounds and was recently fined more than £3 million after it discharged undiluted sewage into two rivers. 0ur reporter allen sinclair has been talking about water pollution with the wildlife expert and presenter steve backshall. now its first instinct is to head for water because this is extremely unusual. television presenter and naturalist steve backshall is famous for wildlife programmes, including the hugely popular deadly 60. his home backs onto the river thames and he's alarmed by new evidence of sewage pollution. we have stand up paddleboarders out here every day, kayakers. we have rowers, we have wild swimmers. i'm teaching my own kids to swim

in this river in the knowledge that every once in a while human effluent is going to be poured in 500 metres upstream. it's just not good enough. 0ur rivers are in the worst state of any nation in europe and that is a source, or should be a source, of national shame. water from the thames has been sampled here daily over a four—week period, including throughout last week's henley royal regatta. volunteers were specially trained to conduct the tests using scientific equipment and methods and insist their evidence is irrefutable. if you can pour it into there, that would be brilliant. so we were actually testing for bacteria. so e.coli and enterococci, which are two bacteria which can cause a lot of harm to humans. and we found after a rain event, a huge surge in e.coli in the river. we were also testing for pollutants as well, nitrates and phosphates. and basically what we found through the testing of those is this

is in poor ecological health as a stretch of river. the testing was specially commissioned by national campaign group river action. it met mp5 to get their backing for a charter to protect and improve all rivers. in orderfor river action to be able to help communities like henley, we need to have evidence. we take that evidence to polluters like thames water and also to the government, who are the regulators. the regulators have been defunded by 70% in the past decade and therefore are unable to monitor and also enforce the law. if we can then go together as a community to thames water and politely but firmly ask them to clear up their mess, we will be heard. also expressing deep concern is olympic rowing legend sir steve redgrave. after many years as a competitor himself, he's now chairman of the henley royal regatta, which welcomes hundreds of top class rowers to the river here each year. in a statement, he said...

thames water has declined an interview but disputes a great deal of what is being claimed about the severity and frequency of sewage discharges. the company says it will review the findings of the report, but adds that a major upgrade was already planned for henley sewage treatment works. that's expected to be completed in 2025, part of a £1.6 billion investment in reducing incidents of untreated sewage discharge. allen sinclair, bbc news. the government looks set to break its pledge to put £11.6 billion towards climate and nature funding for developing countries — that's according to an internal government document seen by the bbc. the document details how the government has consistently underspent

and would now struggle to meet its 2026 target. rishi sunak — seen here at the cop27 climate summit in egypt — has publicly declared the £11.6 billion commitment remains in place. live now to our climate editorjustin rowlatt. can you take us back to that original pledge. what was it meant to achieve? ~ . original pledge. what was it meant to achieve?— original pledge. what was it meant to achieve? ~ ., ., to achieve? what the government did in 2019 was say _ to achieve? what the government did in 2019 was say it _ to achieve? what the government did in 2019 was say it would _ to achieve? what the government did in 2019 was say it would double i to achieve? what the government did in 2019 was say it would double the l in 2019 was say it would double the amount of aid spending on climate and nature, doubling it to this new total of £11.6 billion to be spent by 2026. the document i got hold of, written by civil servants at the foreign office, is a briefing paper for ministers and says that was already a stretching target but the turbulence it describes, some of the events happening since 2019 as turbulence, i think it means new

crane war and covid, and it says it has turned a stretching target into a huge challenge. since then the british government reduced the proportion of gdp it spends on aid from 0.7% to 0.5%, making the target even harder to reach. what civil servants in the document i got hold of say is that the government is so behind now in its spending promises it would have to spend 83% of the total foreign aid it would have to spend 83% of the totalforeign aid budget it would have to spend 83% of the total foreign aid budget on climate total foreign aid budget on climate to meet those targets that it set for climate and nature spending. a brilliant bit of civil service language here, it says it would require a reorientation of the budget on a scale which has not previously been achieved. which i interpret as the civil service saying, you are really, really going to struggle to make this and are probably not going to hit the target you set yourselves. the government is already facing _ you set yourselves. the government is already facing criticism _ you set yourselves. the government is already facing criticism it - you set yourselves. the government is already facing criticism it has i is already facing criticism it has failed to live up to its climate

commitment. is this pledge part of that same criticism?— that same criticism? yes, it certainly — that same criticism? yes, it certainly is- _ that same criticism? yes, it certainly is. there - that same criticism? yes, it certainly is. there is - that same criticism? yes, it certainly is. there is a i that same criticism? yes, it i certainly is. there is a renewed focus on this commitment for spending on vulnerable countries after one of the environment ministers, lord goldsmith, resigned, talking about apathy in government towards its climate commitments, and describing current prime minister rishi sunak is appearing not to be interested in climate. at that point he said we are at risk of abandoning this commitment. i subsequently got hold of these details and have spoken to lord goldsmith since then and he said one of the problems he thinks has happened is that the uk used aid budget money to spend on ukrainian and afghan refugees. i think it has allowed that but a lot of funding that would have gone overseas is now being spent in the uk. he says other countries have not done that. he was also very outspoken about the impact it is having on britain's relationship

with countries around the world, specifically he says small island states. he says the uk's reputation is being shredded. he says that people will not trust the uk to deliver on its promises any more. i have spoken to people in the aid community who backed that up and say it is quite embarrassing to go to foreign countries now because so many of these commitments particularly on climate spending have not been delivered and it becomes quite embarrassing for diplomats and so forth to be travelling in these countries because its perceived britain is not honouring the promises it has made. thank you for taking us through that, editorjustin rowlatt. now, let's get the latest on the weather with simon king. yesterday there was a lot of rainfall across southern areas of the uk but today is looking drier and brighterfor many. one or two showers in the forecast today, but few and far between. all of us at some point might catch one of these showers but you can see from the

pressure pattern, this area of low pressure pattern, this area of low pressure brought the rainfall yesterday across southern areas and it has now speeded away to the low countries. you can see these dots and blue specks, these are the showers and one or two could be heavy and may be thundery into the afternoon but there will be dry spells and sunshine in between the showers. perhaps warmer than yesterday with temperatures up to 20 or 21 in the south. 15—17 in the north. after the wash—out at wimbledon yesterday, things improving today. 16—19 stop still the chance of one or two passing showers but they will not be too prolonged with drier weather and sunny spells. tonight we start to lose those showers. clear spells going into thursday morning with the clouds thickening across northern ireland. overnight temperatures down to 11. in northern ireland on thursday we will see an area of low pressure slowly move its way in and with that outbreaks of rain also

spreading. for england, wales and scotland it will be largely dry with a view showers dotted around in the morning. sunny spells. more persistent rain moving to northern ireland. strengthening wind here with temperatures of 16. warmer again for england and wales with temperatures up to 22. low pressure sticking out to the west as we head into friday with more rainfall likely in western areas. some rain could spread into scotland, north—west england, but with a south—westerly wind developing across many areas on friday, with the sunshine for england and wales, much warmer and more humid day with temperatures into the high 205. 28 and even warmer to the north and west despite cloud and rain. low pressure spinning around western uk even as we going into the weekend. it will remain fairly unsettled on saturday and sunday. not a wash—out but again there will be some showers dotted around. temperatures on saturday potentially mid to high 205. by sunday, thresher, 19—23.

live from london, this is bbc news. funerals are under way for some only 12 palestinians killed in the raids injenin. ukraine has accused russia of placing objects resembling explosive devices on the roof of two power units at the