has finally won the right to appeal against his conviction and jail sentence. is this a huge miscarriage ofjustice? tom hayes alleges he's only the first victim of a whole series of miscarriages ofjustice where 37 traders and brokers across the world were prosecuted for something that's not now regarded as a crime anywhere except here in the uk. meanwhile central banks and governments — including our own — were involved in manipulating interest rates on a much greater scale. tonight, we'll speak live and exclusively to tom hayes. also tonight, a damning report into

the conduct of former deputy chief whip chris pincher shows the continuing hangover for the government of the era of borisjohnson. is rishi sunak holding back from being more critical of his predecessor? he's not suited to this kind of confrontation, so i think his idea is, "if i don't engage with the provocations of borisjohnson�*s supporters, maybe the story will burn out that little bit quicker." how do we clean up the culture in parliament? the conservative chair of the commons equalities committee, caroline nokes, is here. and on the tunisian border, the migrant crisis turns violent amidst beatings and abuse. what happens now? we'll ask the tunisian human rights league. good evening. we open tonight with a story which some believe could be the next big miscarriage ofjustice in this country — one for which there is evidence of a state—led cover—up. this is 43—year—old tom hayes. he didn't see his young sonjoshua grow up because mr hayes was jailed

in 2015 when joshua was just three. tom hayes used to work for ubs and citigroup bank in toyko as a trader, often earning more than a million in a year. then he was accused by the uk serious fraud office of being the "ringmaster" of an internation conspiracy of an international conspiracy to rig interest rates, and he was found guilty on eight counts and given a 14—yearjail term — longer than some killers — although it was reduced to 11 years on appeal. mr hayes has always protested his innocence, arguing that what he was doing was literally his job and the bosses all knew. for the last eight years he's been fighting to have his conviction and sentence overturned — and today he learned his case would be referred to the court of appeal. we'll speak to him in a exclusive interview in a moment. first, andy verity�*s been reporting on this story for years and has this report.

good evening. it's been that much as day... good evening. it's been that much as da , . . . good evening. it's been that much as da... ., ., ., good evening. it's been that much as da ., ., ., ., day. .. the scandal that “ailed tom ha es day. .. the scandal that “ailed tom hayesdidn-tfi day... the scandal that “ailed tom hayes didn't start h day... the scandal that “ailed tom hayes didn't start with h day... the scandal that jailed tom hayes didn't start with him. - day... the scandal that jailed tom hayes didn't start with him. in - day... the scandal that jailed tom l hayes didn't start with him. in 2008 banks had lost so much money on us mortgages they became reluctant to lend to each other so they could only get hold of the funds at much higher interest rates, but they didn't want to admit what they were really paying less to look desperate for funds. really paying less to look desperate forfunds. so banks started lying, falsely understating the real interest rates they were paying, an illegal practice known as lowballing. those false statements were all about libor, the london interbank offered rate, a benchmark that tracks what banks pay to borrow cash, a bit like the ftse hundred track shares. it used to set interest rates on millions of loans worth trillions. each day 16 banks answer a question on what interest rate they can borrow money. they answer, and an average is taken, libor. in october 2008, top downing street official the late sirjeremy heywood was keen to get libor down

fast but the trader who gave barclays fast but the trader who gave ba rclays answers to the fast but the trader who gave barclays answers to the libor question kept publishing higher, more honest rates, closer to what traders were paying to borrow cash. then his boss gave him an order passed down from on high. we've had some very serious _ passed down from on high. we've had some very serious pressure _ passed down from on high. we've had some very serious pressure from - passed down from on high. we've had some very serious pressure from the l some very serious pressure from the uk government... it some very serious pressure from the uk government. . ._ uk government... it was that tape that led us — uk government... it was that tape that led us authorities _ uk government... it was that tape that led us authorities to - uk government... it was that tape that led us authorities to launch . that led us authorities to launch criminal prosecutions, and injune 2012, regulators fined barclays a record amount for rigging interest rates. their boss, bob diamond, was forced to resign. evidence leaked out that the bank of england had been involved. so, the bank of england appeared to be encouraging barclays for doing the very thing that it was punished for. but mps were told it was all a misunderstanding. bob diamond blamed traders and the bank of england denied any knowledge of manipulation. the crucial tape that led to the prosecutions in the first place was covered up. no one told parliament about it.

in 2015, tom hayes became the first trader to be prosecuted for manipulating libor. in the middle of his trial, then bank of england governor mark carney gave a speech calling for tougher sentences for rogue traders. a few weeks later the judge sentenced tom hayes to 1a years. he was incarcerated for five and a half, eventually being released in 2021. then last year, the us courts ruled that what traders were doing hadn't broken any rules. after reading a book i published about the scandal, mps from david davis tojohn mcdonnell became concerned there's been a state led cover—up followed by a whole series of miscarriages of justice, with a huge human cost. now, after six years of trying, tom hayes�*s case has been referred back to the court of appeal, raising the possibility that the uk, the only place where what traders did is now

regarded as criminal, may yet overturn notjust tom hayes�*s conviction but that of nine more sentenced to jail for allegedly manipulating interest rates. and andy's here now. and what tom hayes did isn't considered a crime anywhere in the world except here in the uk? no, especially since last year when us courts decided the whole prosecution case, which is very similar to the case over here, was rubbish, essentially. they said the fundamental rom and fraud hadn't been proved, that any false or misleading statements had been made, so if you think about the question i was describing in the tape there, at what interest rate can you borrow cash, if you were trying to answer that question you would go to a few lenders and get a few rates offered to you, and they wouldn't all be exactly the same rate, they would be very close together. what the traders were doing were selecting between those accurate rates that were offered to them, often just 100 of a percentage point or to, double backed wood, apart, but they were

all answers to the question. despite the 100th of a percentage point or two. but they were asking for. and though answers way away from where you could actually borrow cash, and that's the thing, where you could actually demonstrate fraudulent or misleading statements, that's the thing that hasn't been prosecuted over the stuff that's led to the top, where there was evidence pointing to central banks, including the bank of england, the ecb, the new york fed, the bank of france, the bank to tell you, they've all been asked about this and none wanted to comment, —— the bank d'italia. and traders said, no one told us this was wrong. thank you, and . let's speak to mr hayes now. thank you for being with us on newsnight. it's been a long time fighting to clear your name, and what you've been through is awful. how are you today? i what you've been through is awful. how are you today?— how are you today? i was a bit emotional. _ how are you today? i was a bit emotional, to _ how are you today? i was a bit emotional, to be _ how are you today? i was a bit emotional, to be honest, - how are you today? i was a bit| emotional, to be honest, when how are you today? i was a bit - emotional, to be honest, when my solicitor_ emotional, to be honest, when my solicitor rang me this morning to

say that— solicitor rang me this morning to say that we finally got the referral, it was... the combination of sort _ referral, it was... the combination of sort of— referral, it was... the combination of sort of an— referral, it was... the combination of sort of an eight year effort, you know, _ of sort of an eight year effort, you know, seven, six .5 years with the criminal_ know, seven, six .5 years with the criminal case _ know, seven, six .5 years with the criminal case review commission, this criminal case review commission, ihis sort_ criminal case review commission, this sort of— criminal case review commission, this sort of ordeal started for me in 2012— this sort of ordeal started for me in 2012 so— this sort of ordeal started for me in 2012 so it's taken up a good 25% of my— in 2012 so it's taken up a good 25% of my life — in 2012 so it's taken up a good 25% of my life. so my initial reaction was a _ of my life. so my initial reaction was a little _ of my life. so my initial reaction was a little bit tearful. emotional. pleased _ was a little bit tearful. emotional. pleased to — was a little bit tearful. emotional. pleased to finally get the referral. you know. — pleased to finally get the referral. you know, and have their wood having won that _ you know, and have their wood having won that battle, we are visa still needs— won that battle, we are visa still needs to — won that battle, we are visa still needs to go to the court of appeal in wood _ needs to go to the court of appeal in wood there. —— and having won that battte~ — in wood there. —— and having won that battle. but what i suffered was suffered _ that battle. but what i suffered was suffered by many, notjust me. what suffered by many, not 'ust me. what have ou suffered by many, not 'ust me. what have you lost. _ suffered by many, not 'ust me. what have you lost, the — suffered by many, notjust me. what have you lost, the time _ suffered by many, notjust me. twat have you lost, the time you were suffered by many, notjust me. “ltdsisgt have you lost, the time you were in jail? have you lost, the time you were in “ail? ., . y have you lost, the time you were in “ail? ., ., , , ., ., jail? fortunately i still have a stront jail? fortunately i still have a strong relationship _ jail? fortunately i still have a strong relationship with - jail? fortunately i still have a strong relationship with my l jail? fortunately i still have a l strong relationship with my son jail? fortunately i still have a - strong relationship with my son but i strong relationship with my son but i miss— strong relationship with my son but i miss the _ strong relationship with my son but i miss the majority of his life growing _ i miss the majority of his life growing up, i was ripped from him when _ growing up, i was ripped from him when he _ growing up, i was ripped from him when he was three and a half years old and _ when he was three and a half years old and didn't come back to him until— old and didn't come back to him until he — old and didn't come back to him until he was nine. i lost pretty much — until he was nine. i lost pretty much all— until he was nine. i lost pretty much all my material possessions, though— much all my material possessions, though i_ much all my material possessions, though i believe that to be the least _

though i believe that to be the least of— though i believe that to be the least of the things i lost. i lost my marriage. i lost... you know, my mental— my marriage. i lost... you know, my mental health — my marriage. i lost... you know, my mental health. and i was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis whilst i was in prison, — with multiple sclerosis whilst i was in prison, which i think was exacerbated by my time away. and i have quite _ exacerbated by my time away. and i have quite bad ptsd, you know, feelings— have quite bad ptsd, you know, feelings of, you know, anxiety and terror— feelings of, you know, anxiety and terror in _ feelings of, you know, anxiety and terror in the — feelings of, you know, anxiety and terror in the mornings, even now. night _ terror in the mornings, even now. night terrors. and just this, just last night, — night terrors. and just this, just last night, you know, i had a nightmare _ last night, you know, i had a nightmare about being back in prison — nightmare about being back in prison. so, i mean, it was a long sentence — prison. so, i mean, it was a long sentence and i was there a long time, _ sentence and i was there a long time, and — sentence and i was there a long time, and it's quite adversely affected _ time, and it's quite adversely affected me. time, and it's quite adversely affected me— time, and it's quite adversely affected me. . i] affected me. aryou escape goat? i would say that _ affected me. aryou escape goat? i would say that traders _ affected me. aryou escape goat? i would say that traders collectively | would say that traders collectively were scapegoats. i think it's unfair to single _ were scapegoats. i think it's unfair to single me out on that basis. ultimately what happened was, rates, and the _ ultimately what happened was, rates, and the investigation began when rates _ and the investigation began when rates were false, demonstrably false, _ rates were false, demonstrably false, numerically false. and we

were _ false, numerically false. and we were convenient people to deflect attention— were convenient people to deflect attention from that, particularly at the time, — attention from that, particularly at the time, the zeitgeist was very much _ the time, the zeitgeist was very much anti—banker, very much wanting to out— much anti—banker, very much wanting to put bankers in prison, and, you know _ to put bankers in prison, and, you know and — to put bankers in prison, and, you know... and to an extent that is understandable after the global financial crisis. but we were scapegoats for the people who were actually _ scapegoats for the people who were actually telling the lies, but also for a _ actually telling the lies, but also for a broader financial crisis that we fora broader financial crisis that we didn't— for a broader financial crisis that we didn't actually have anything to do with _ we didn't actually have anything to do with. ., , we didn't actually have anything to do with. . , , ., . . do with. originally you are a witness for _ do with. originally you are a witness for the _ do with. originally you are a witness for the prosecution. j do with. originally you are a - witness for the prosecution. you could have had a shorterjail sentence. what made you change your mind? ~ . , ,, sentence. what made you change your mind? . , ,, mind? well, during that process, as i saw mind? well, during that process, as i saw more — mind? well, during that process, as i saw more evidence, _ mind? well, during that process, as i saw more evidence, which - mind? well, during that process, as i saw more evidence, which i - mind? well, during that process, as i saw more evidence, which i knew i i saw more evidence, which i knew corroborated what i was saying, it was a _ corroborated what i was saying, it was a gradual sort of evolution. i was a gradual sort of evolution. i was also — was a gradual sort of evolution. i was also at — was a gradual sort of evolution. i was also at that point very mentally broken. _ was also at that point very mentally broken. l'd — was also at that point very mentally broken, i'd suffered a nervous breakdown, i was not very well. but as my— breakdown, i was not very well. but as my mental health recovery, i realised — as my mental health recovery, i realised that firstly, i couldn't lie about _ realised that firstly, i couldn't lie about my friends and co—defendants, all of whom were acquitted. — co—defendants, all of whom were

acquitted, so i was convicted in a conspiracy— acquitted, so i was convicted in a conspiracy of one, i was convicted in a separate trial. not only could i in a separate trial. not only could i not _ in a separate trial. not only could i not lie _ in a separate trial. not only could i not lie about them, i couldn't bring _ i not lie about them, i couldn't bring myself to plead guilty to something i didn't believe i was guilty— something i didn't believe i was guilty of — something i didn't believe i was guilty of. and once the threat of extradition had sort of... disappeared, because i'd been charged — disappeared, because i'd been charged in the united kingdom, iwas able to— charged in the united kingdom, iwas able to make a decision which was the decision i wanted to make. why are the the decision i wanted to make. "i1: are the authoritiesjust the decision i wanted to make. "i1: are the authorities just trying to manage the crisis —— were they trying to manage the crisis? it was a crisis. “ ., trying to manage the crisis? it was a crisis. �* ., . , a crisis. i'm not the 'udge and “my ofthe a crisis. i'm not the 'udge and “my of the morality “ a crisis. i'm not the 'udge and “my of the morality or h a crisis. i'm not the judge and “my of the morality or otherwise h a crisis. i'm not the judge and jury of the morality or otherwise of - of the morality or otherwise of trying — of the morality or otherwise of trying to— of the morality or otherwise of trying to protect the sovereignty of the banks— trying to protect the sovereignty of the banks will stop its not for me to say— the banks will stop its not for me to say if— the banks will stop its not for me to say if that's something that should — to say if that's something that should or— to say if that's something that should or shouldn't have been punished _ should or shouldn't have been punished. my personal opinion is that actually, no one should have been _ that actually, no one should have been punished. but what certainly shouldn't— been punished. but what certainly shouldn't have happened is we shouldn't— shouldn't have happened is we shouldn't have happened is we shouldn't have been used as defections from really had gone on and the _ defections from really had gone on and the story spun away from them

towards _ and the story spun away from them towards us —— used as deflections we were _ towards us —— used as deflections we were up— towards us —— used as deflections we were up against a variety of very powerful— were up against a variety of very powerful forces, the politicians, central — powerful forces, the politicians, central banks, treasures on both sides— central banks, treasures on both sides of— central banks, treasures on both sides of the atlantic, regulators, we were — sides of the atlantic, regulators, we were just little guys who stood little chance in that tsunami of sugar— little chance in that tsunami of sugar know we were subjected to. -- sugar know we were sub'ected to. -- shock sugar know we were subjected to. shock and sugar know we were subjected to. -- shock and awe. what do you think of the fact that those regular edges, there was banks, the people at the top targeted, focused on guys like you, the traders? —— regulators and banks. you, the traders? -- regulators and banks. ., , , . banks. hopefully with recent olitical banks. hopefully with recent political developments, - banks. hopefully with recent political developments, you | banks. hopefully with recent. political developments, you tell banks. hopefully with recent - political developments, you tell me you speak— political developments, you tell me you speak to david davis later, some of the _ you speak to david davis later, some of the treasury select committee hearings — of the treasury select committee hearings might be reopened and we can start _ hearings might be reopened and we can start focusing on some of the things— can start focusing on some of the things that — can start focusing on some of the things that were told to them that are demonstrably untrue. but what ou think are demonstrably untrue. but what you think about _ are demonstrably untrue. but what you think about what _ are demonstrably untrue. but what you think about what they - are demonstrably untrue. but what you think about what they did - are demonstrably untrue. but what you think about what they did and l you think about what they did and the consequences for you? i don't really want _ the consequences for you? i don't really want to _ the consequences for you? i don't really want to damn _ the consequences for you? i don't really want to damn anyone, - the consequences for you? i don't really want to damn anyone, but l really want to damn anyone, but because — really want to damn anyone, but because for a long time i suffered very greatly from a lot of rage, i was very— very greatly from a lot of rage, i was very polemic and i was very angry, _ was very polemic and i was very angry, and _ was very polemic and i was very angry, and actually, it's quite damaging to me, so as easy as it

would _ damaging to me, so as easy as it would be — damaging to me, so as easy as it would be for me to say, these people. — would be for me to say, these people, bad things should happen to them, _ people, bad things should happen to them, l'm _ people, bad things should happen to them, i'm actually... i would like to see _ them, i'm actually... i would like to see redress and i would like to see some — to see redress and i would like to see some consequences and i would like to— see some consequences and i would like to see _ see some consequences and i would like to see the truth come out but, you know. — like to see the truth come out but, you know, the consequences for them are not— you know, the consequences for them are not for— you know, the consequences for them are not for me to say, i don't think — are not for me to say, i don't think. . ., ., , , , are not for me to say, i don't think. . . . ,, , well... are not for me to say, i don't think. ~ ., ., ,, , well... we think. what happens next? well... we will be going — think. what happens next? well... we will be going back _ think. what happens next? well... we will be going back to _ think. what happens next? well... we will be going back to the _ think. what happens next? well... we will be going back to the court - think. what happens next? well. .. we will be going back to the court of- will be going back to the court of appeal, — will be going back to the court of appeal, which i'm delighted about, probably. _ appeal, which i'm delighted about, probably, in i would guess, six to nine _ probably, in i would guess, six to nine months. and i'm hopeful that when _ nine months. and i'm hopeful that when they— nine months. and i'm hopeful that when they rehear the arguments, we can fall— when they rehear the arguments, we can fall in _ when they rehear the arguments, we can fall in line with the rest of the world _ can fall in line with the rest of the world. because people should not be going _ the world. because people should not be going to prison for submitting numerically accurate rates. and rules— numerically accurate rates. and rules should not be created ten years _ rules should not be created ten years after the event in retrospectively applied. and of the founders— retrospectively applied. and of the founders of the rates, who wrote the rules. _ founders of the rates, who wrote the rules, who _ founders of the rates, who wrote the rules, who say it wasn't against the rules, _ rules, who say it wasn't against the rules, it's _ rules, who say it wasn't against the rules, it's an— rules, who say it wasn't against the rules, it's an alice in wonderland case _ rules, it's an alice in wonderland case where — rules, it's an alice in wonderland case where their evidence is

completely pushed to one side because — completely pushed to one side because the english courts say, we know— because the english courts say, we know better than the rest of the world _ know better than the rest of the world. and i'd like to see that corrected _ world. and i'd like to see that corrected. is world. and i'd like to see that corrected-— world. and i'd like to see that corrected. . . ., corrected. is it a miscarriage of 'ustice, corrected. is it a miscarriage of justice, finally, _ corrected. is it a miscarriage of justice, finally, briefly? - corrected. is it a miscarriage of justice, finally, briefly? yes, i corrected. is it a miscarriage of justice, finally, briefly? yes, it| justice, finally, briefly? yes, it is, for justice, finally, briefly? yes, it is. for the _ justice, finally, briefly? yes, it is, for the traders, _ justice, finally, briefly? yes, it is, for the traders, for - justice, finally, briefly? yes, it is, for the traders, for all - justice, finally, briefly? yes, it is, for the traders, for all of i justice, finally, briefly? yes, it| is, for the traders, for all of us. and _ is, for the traders, for all of us. and i_ is, for the traders, for all of us. and i get— is, for the traders, for all of us. and i get the attention because of the rather— and i get the attention because of the rather crazy sentence i got. but i the rather crazy sentence i got. but i often _ the rather crazy sentence i got. but l often feel— the rather crazy sentence i got. but i often feel uncomfortable with that because _ i often feel uncomfortable with that because it _ i often feel uncomfortable with that because it destroyed a lot of people. _ because it destroyed a lot of people, notjust the people who because it destroyed a lot of people, not just the people who were prosecuted, the people who were acquitted, the people who weren't prosecuted, the people who lost their— prosecuted, the people who lost theirjobs— prosecuted, the people who lost theirjobs and their careers and reputations. there was a lot of people — reputations. there was a lot of people very badly damaged. tom ha es, people very badly damaged. tom hayes. thank— people very badly damaged. tom hayes, thank you _ people very badly damaged. tom hayes, thank you very much people very badly damaged. trim hayes, thank you very much for talking to us on newsnight will be appreciated, thank you.— talking to us on newsnight will be appreciated, thank you. thank you. obviously we _ appreciated, thank you. thank you. obviously we will _ appreciated, thank you. thank you. obviously we will continue - appreciated, thank you. thank you. obviously we will continue to - appreciated, thank you. thank you. j obviously we will continue to follow your story. let's talk to conservative mp david davis who has raised these prosecutions in parliament. how do you view this whole scandal? it's how do you view this whole scandal? it“s clearly a miscarriage of justice, tom didn“t it“s clearly a miscarriage of justice, tom didn't want to say it but he was clearly scapegoated, and

when this happened, it was... you had sort of salem witchcraft trials of ever was really angry with the bankers, with some reason, the banking industry in general had really damage the whole world. they were really cross about that. they wanted somebody to be punished. and i'm afraid the british courts, to some extent, gave into that. judges made decisions which were outside their competence. they defined this crime after the event, defined it as a crime after the event, something which was normal practice, and that's what the americans have got right, the american appeal court, the so—called second circuit appeal court about the one that covers wall street, and thejudges court about the one that covers wall street, and the judges there know about financial practice and they quite rightly said this is not a crime was up so you had sort of bastos terrier leading to serial miscarriages ofjustice and you heard —— mass hysteria for the one we heard this in parliament we had

e—mails from parliament the next morning for people who told us they had considered suicide, their reputations had gone, theirjobs, their marriages, their sanity, the reputations with their friends even had gone. and they really thought of ending it all. so that's how bad it is and that's why i hope the appeal court will not just is and that's why i hope the appeal court will notjust correct is and that's why i hope the appeal court will not just correct tom hayes“s conviction, quash it, but also all others, we have a cascade of corrections. tom hayes was nodding along as you said people had talked of suicide. i want to ask you, do you think parliament has been told the whole truth about this? we parliament has been told the whole truth about this?— parliament has been told the whole truth about this? we don't know for sure. i truth about this? we don't know for sure- i have — truth about this? we don't know for sure. i have given _ truth about this? we don't know for sure. i have given a _ truth about this? we don't know for sure. i have given a huge _ truth about this? we don't know for sure. i have given a huge file - truth about this? we don't know for sure. i have given a huge file to - sure. i have given a huge file to the chairman of the treasury select committee whom i spoke to about eight this week and they are going to consider it and come to a conclusion as to whether they feel they were misled and must hear again some...

they feel they were misled and must hear again some. . ._ hear again some... there was an intui hear again some... there was an inquiry by _ hear again some... there was an inquiry by the — hear again some... there was an inquiry by the select _ hear again some... there was an inquiry by the select committee l hear again some... there was an l inquiry by the select committee in 2012. ., �* , ., , ., 2012. that's right, a quite short intui . 2012. that's right, a quite short inquiry- a _ 2012. that's right, a quite short inquiry- a lot— 2012. that's right, a quite short inquiry. a lot of— 2012. that's right, a quite short inquiry. a lot of things - 2012. that's right, a quite short inquiry. a lot of things they - 2012. that's right, a quite short. inquiry. a lot of things they were considering including the whole question of why the banking system had gone so badly wrong. blue. question of why the banking system had gone so badly wrong. sure. it was a small— had gone so badly wrong. sure. it was a small piece _ had gone so badly wrong. sure. it was a small piece of— had gone so badly wrong. sure. it was a small piece of that - had gone so badly wrong. sure. it was a small piece of that but the truth is that what was said to them was not accurate. whether that's the bankers and treasury officials and the rest deliberately misleading or they simply didn“t the rest deliberately misleading or they simply didn't know, i don't know. that's for the treasury committee to resolve. and i hope that they will, quite quickly. thank ou for that they will, quite quickly. thank you for talking _ that they will, quite quickly. thank you for talking to _ that they will, quite quickly. thank you for talking to us, _ that they will, quite quickly. thank you for talking to us, david - that they will, quite quickly. thank| you for talking to us, david davies. and tom hayes, thank you again. after last night's newsnight, where parliamentary staffer ellie va rley revealed allegations of gross behavior she had been subjected to while working in westminster, three others have come forward to tell newsnight of claims

of sexually inappropriate conduct on the parliamentary estate. and today another "egregious case of sexual misconduct": a report from parliament's standards watchdog recommending an eight weeks commons suspension for mp chris pincher. the standards committee said his "completely inappropriate" behaviour was an “'abuse of power". remember it was reports about mr pincher“s conduct that led to the downfall of borisjohnson last year, when the then prime minister said he had been unaware of any concerns about him when he made mr pincher deputy chief whip. that claim wasn't, mrjohnson later admitted, true. a year on, the shadow of borisjohnson“s premiership continues to loom over rishi sunak“s premiership. some in the conservative party are asking why he doesn't express a firmer opinion on matters of conduct, including famously on the privileges committee invesigation into mrjohnson, which said he misled parliament on multiple occasions. in a moment we'll talk live

to the head of the women and equalities committee. first, here's nick. jazzy music. partners in power. then a rift, a departure. but this one, always looming large. a week rarely goes by without a reminder of borisjohnson. today, his once key ally, chris pincher, facing suspension from parliament after allegations of sexual misconduct. and it was the response of borisjohnson“s number ten which turned out to be untrue that ended his premiership. and next week mps will debate whether to take action against former cabinet allies for allegedly undermining a parliamentary committee. that body found boris johnson had deliberately misled mps. the downfall of borisjohnson, it wasn't quite as dramatic as the fall of margaret thatcher and i doubt it will cast a decades—long shadow, but these problems are still persisting.

borisjohnson supporters, some of them are still in the house of commons. there's a section of the conservative grassroots which is still really angry and, as we've seen now, some of his allies and some of those scandals, they're still playing their way through the parliamentary system. you don't really want to be continuing to have conversations about the previous legacy — you want to move the public on, and the public want to move on. we see that in the data. they want a prime minister and their team focused on delivering on cost of living, inflation and public services, which are under distress. legacies of a discredited premiership, buta new prime minister struggling to find or muster the will for a de—borisisation moment. why can't the guy living here now draw a line under the guy who used to live here? politics, of course, and three calculations. in the first place, rishi sunak believes his resignation from borisjohnson“s cabinet did thejob,

and showed a very different set of values. cautious to his fingertips, rishi sunak also thinks, don“t poke the bear. and finally, it goes against every one of his instincts to stage a theatrical showdown with borisjohnson. stick to the issues, is his mantra. you“re stuck to boris johnson, say the critics. he has made a rod for his own back on borisjohnson... a conservative commentator sees a prime minister treading carefully. rishi sunak has never been one of politics“ great warriors, right, he's never come in to sort of wage personal battles. whereas boris johnson was quite good at that when he wanted to be. rishi wants to be focusing on policy, detailed policy. now, there are all kinds of reason that that's also quite an unhappy story for him at the moment, but that's where he's most comfortable. he doesn't want to be... he is not suited to this kind of confrontation, so i think his idea is, if i don't engage with the provocations of borisjohnson“s

supporters, maybe the story will burn out that little bit quicker. i think the damage is done... a pollster says mixed feelings amongst voters points to a careful balancing act for rishi sunak. voters are currently very unfavourable towards boris johnson, and they have been for some time. when we look at overall favourability ratings, or indeed how they think he conducted himself during the recent lockdown inquiry, the vast majority of the british public would say that was done badly. but that doesn't mean that there is not a small contingent of those who voted conservative back in 2019 and those who also voted for leave who are favourable, and that's the balance that rishi sunak has to strike as he navigates some of the ongoing challenges for the conservative party. the summer party season, a moment to relax for a prime minister who can rarely escape roars from a recent and rumbustious era. nick — we heard in your report there about the standards committee recommendation that chris pincher is suspended for eight weeks. where does this go?

yes, that's a recommendation by the parliamentary committee on standards based on report by the parliamentary standards watchdog. the report gave details of alleged groping by christopher pincher of two individuals at the conservative carlton club injune of last year. the parliamentary commissioner for standards described the behaviour as a shocking, deeply inappropriate and had adversely impacted the two unsuspecting individuals. it added that the misconduct by chris pincher had caused significant and lasting impact to the reputation and integrity of the house of commons. chris pincher apologised but he said he had not breached the house of commons code of conduct. the reason why he said that, he was initially giving a speech in the carlton club and doing it as a former minister and doing it as a former minister and not as an mp. he went away and came back, he says, in his private capacity. he said he had damaged his

reputation and the government's reputation and the government's reputation but denied doing lasting damage to the commons. the point about that, that kind of narrow defence plays into everything that sima kotecha reported on yesterday, this feeling that the people who are found to be guilty of very serious offences don“t found to be guilty of very serious offences don't understand the merit and then come up with a very narrow defence. what now? the recommendation is a suspension of eight weeks. chris pincher has ten days to appeal and then there will be a vote in the house of commons. thanks, nick. chris pincher, by the way, argued in mitigation that while he had damaged his own reputation and that of the government, he did not do "significant damage" to the reputation of the westminster parliament. he admitted he did not recall the events on the night in question. one witness described him as "smashed" that night. let's speak now to a woman who's been a conservative mp for more than a decade, and who is chair of the women and equalities committee. caroline nokes. welcome. evening. we

had sima kotecha's _ caroline nokes. welcome. evening. we had sima kotecha's report _ caroline nokes. welcome. evening. we had sima kotecha's report on _ had sima kotecha's report on newsnight last night reporting pretty disgusting behaviour, mari black saying one reason she is leaving because of toxic culture and now the chris pincher report. what's going on? now the chris pincher report. what's atoin on? “ . now the chris pincher report. what's atoin on? v . now the chris pincher report. what's ttoin on? �*, . l, going on? there's an important point to make. going on? there's an important point to make- l've — going on? there's an important point to make. i've been _ going on? there's an important point to make. i've been an _ going on? there's an important point to make. i've been an mp _ going on? there's an important point to make. i've been an mp 4/13- going on? there's an important point to make. i've been an mp 4/13 years| to make. i've been an mp 4/13 years now. i would observe that i've seen behaviour improving in that time but we've also seen a situation where staffers in particular feel that they can speak out more freely. what's happened in westminster is absolutely appalling, i make no bones about it but it's important to encourage people who have been harassed, bullied, abused that they are empowered to speak out and are supported through the process and that we stick up for the victims and not the perpetrators. it that we stick up for the victims and not the perpetrators.— not the perpetrators. it would be tood not not the perpetrators. it would be good not to _ not the perpetrators. it would be good not to have _ not the perpetrators. it would be good not to have any _ not the perpetrators. it would be l good not to have any perpetrators, wouldn't it? what kind of workplace is it when this happens? if i may, i“m is it when this happens? if i may, i'm not sure if you short newsnight

last night but let me play you the clip of ellie varley talking to sima kotecha. he just kept saying, "oh, just come sit on my lap," and i was like, "i'm fine, thank you. "i don't want to sit on your lap, i'm quite happy standing." and he was just so persistent that i thought, "i'm just going to sit on your lap because... you're clearly not getting that i don't want to sit on your lap and it's quite weird to ask." understatement of the year. of course it's weird to ask and since then three other people have been in touch with sima to report claims of sexual misconduct. what do you think about that? it’s sexual misconduct. what do you think about that? “ . . sexual misconduct. what do you think about that? �*, . , ., , sexual misconduct. what do you think aboutthat? �*, . , ., , , about that? it's a serious problem and the people — about that? it's a serious problem and the people who _ about that? it's a serious problem and the people who have - about that? it's a serious problem and the people who have spoken i about that? it's a serious problem i and the people who have spoken out are incredibly brave. that's the important thing, they need support, a process that is swift and fair. the chris pincher case has taken a year, that's unacceptable that it should have taken so long to come up with a recommendation. it“s crucially important that parliament recognises the recommendation of the eight—week suspension. there shouldn't be a vote, we should

accept it and vote through on the nod, as you would do when you come to this kind of business. 650 nod, as you would do when you come to this kind of business.— to this kind of business. 650 mps, 800 members _ to this kind of business. 650 mps, 800 members of _ to this kind of business. 650 mps, 800 members of the _ to this kind of business. 650 mps, 800 members of the house - to this kind of business. 650 mps, 800 members of the house of - to this kind of business. 650 mps, l 800 members of the house of lords and most behave normally. and we know there is grotesque behaviour across all of the parties. to stop poor behaviour there is a ministerial code of conduct and a code of conduct for mps but it doesn't appear to be stopping certain mps from touching their colleagues inappropriately or watching pornography for instance. what would you change? tare watching pornography for instance. what would you change? i've made this toint what would you change? i've made this point to _ what would you change? i've made this point to successive _ what would you change? i've made this point to successive chief - this point to successive chief whips, who are in effect the pastoral system of the commons. i think that's inadequate for a start but i think the whips of all the parties should come together and come up with an explicit code of conduct so ukarchive this narrow defence, i was there any private capacity so it doesn't matter. it does matter, it really matters. —— so you can't have this narrow defence. a higher standard is needed

than we would hold to the rest of the population. 650 mps come vast majority worked really hard, try and do the right things and are free from this suspicion. the minority has given our greatest democratic institution a really bad name. what institution a really bad name. what would be in — institution a really bad name. what would be in your— institution a really bad name. what would be in your explicit _ institution a really bad name. what would be in your explicit code of conduct? ., ,., ., conduct? you identified some of the challentes conduct? you identified some of the challenges then. _ conduct? you identified some of the challenges then. last _ conduct? you identified some of the challenges then. last year _ conduct? you identified some of the challenges then. last year we - conduct? you identified some of the challenges then. last year we had . conduct? you identified some of the challenges then. last year we had a | challenges then. last year we had a member accused of watching pornography in the chamber. we had the chris pincher case where he was accused of touching people inappropriately. ellie varley has been brave to speak out, talking about someone almost insisting that she sit on his lap. that's wrong, we shouldn't be doing that. you she sit on his lap. that's wrong, we shouldn't be doing that.— shouldn't be doing that. you say that, do shouldn't be doing that. you say that. do not _ shouldn't be doing that. you say that, do not touch _ shouldn't be doing that. you say that, do not touch your- shouldn't be doing that. you say i that, do not touch your colleagues, do not want pornography in the commons, as basic as that? i absolutely would because there can't be any grey areas and it must apply equally to the house of lords and the commons.—

the commons. that's quite extraordinary, _ the commons. that's quite extraordinary, what - the commons. that's quite extraordinary, what you . the commons. that's quite l extraordinary, what you said the commons. that's quite - extraordinary, what you said is staggering, that you have to explain it like that to people in the commons and the lords in order... in orderfor sexual commons and the lords in order... in order for sexual misconduct not to go on and for pornography not to be watched in select committee hearings. watched in select committee hearints. ., �* hearings. you're right, you shouldn't _ hearings. you're right, you shouldn't need _ hearings. you're right, you shouldn't need to - hearings. you're right, you shouldn't need to be - hearings. you're right, you shouldn't need to be that l hearings. you're right, you - shouldn't need to be that explicit but if mps are going to look at the broad brush off the code of conduct and be able to use a narrow defence, to say that they weren't there in their capacity as deputy chief whip, that's not acceptable.— that's not acceptable. you've been in parliament _ that's not acceptable. you've been in parliament since _ that's not acceptable. you've been in parliament since 2010 _ that's not acceptable. you've been in parliament since 2010 and - that's not acceptable. you've been in parliament since 2010 and you | that's not acceptable. you've been i in parliament since 2010 and you say you've seen things changing for the better. how many inappropriate or weird or creepy incidents would you say that you've been subjected to in that time? say that you've been sub'ected to in that time? ., , . .. ,. that time? numerous and i can think of... i couldn't _ that time? numerous and i can think of... i couldn't put a _ that time? numerous and i can think of... i couldn't put a number- that time? numerous and i can think of... i couldn't put a number on - that time? numerous and i can think of... i couldn't put a number on it. i of... i couldn't put a number on it. 20, 50? , , ., of... i couldn't put a number on it. 20, 50? , y ., ., of... i couldn't put a number on it. 20, 50? , , ., ., i: 20, 50? definitely more than 20, more like 50- _ 20, 50? definitely more than 20, more like 50. 50 _ 20, 50? definitely more than 20, more like 50. 50 incidents? - 20, 50? definitely more than 20, more like 50. 50 incidents? i - 20, 50? definitely more than 20, more like 50. 50 incidents? i can| more like 50. 50 incidents? i can think of incidents _ more like 50. 50 incidents? i can think of incidents where - more like 50. 50 incidents? i can think of incidents where a - more like 50. 50 incidents? i can i think of incidents where a member more like 50. 50 incidents? i can - think of incidents where a member of the house of lords in a restaurant

said hello to me, all passed, turned around, came back and stroked my behrami in the presence of a journalist. can think of another incident where the mp patted me on the backside and said i had done well to lose weight. he looked as shocked as i did and clearly regretted what he had done but other incidents where colleagues have put their hands on my tigh and told me at great length how their wives don“t at great length how their wives don't understand them. it is horrific. " . . , horrific. are there certain people who wouldn't _ horrific. are there certain people who wouldn't get _ horrific. are there certain people who wouldn't get in _ horrific. are there certain people who wouldn't get in a _ horrific. are there certain people who wouldn't get in a lift - horrific. are there certain people who wouldn't get in a lift with i horrific. are there certain people who wouldn't get in a lift with at| who wouldn't get in a lift with at work? 5. who wouldn't get in a lift with at work? ., . ~' who wouldn't get in a lift with at work? . . ~ “ . work? 5, and i think it's very tellint work? 5, and i think it's very telling that _ work? 5, and i think it's very telling that female _ work? 5, and i think it's very telling that female membersi work? 5, and i think it's very i telling that female members of parliament will support each other, provide information as to who to trust, not to trust, who we think is a little bit creepy. and i think thatis a little bit creepy. and i think that is one of the challenges, that some of the complaints system expects a level of behaviour that is almost criminal before it's worth reporting. actually, a lot of colleagues have made different

members at different times feel uncomfortable and that's just not appropriate for top it gets better, because actually, you see far more women in the house of commons nowadays. the gender balance is improving, it“s improved in the last decade. but there is still unfortunately, in some instances, a really lateish culture where, you know, the bad tell about badger defences use —— a laddish culture. unlike ellie varley was highlighted last night, that's not acceptable in a 21st century workplace. —— and, like ellie varley was highlighting. do you hear victim blaming and shaming? yes. things like, it was a honey trap, he was enticed into that, it should never have happened, she laid a trap for him. at the stark reality is we have a power imbalance. sexual harassment is never about the sex, it“s imbalance. sexual harassment is never about the sex, it's about the power and using influence, and there are too many, there are many young people who want to have a career in

politics, who see this, the honour of working in westminster, as a real opportunity and that leaves them in a position where they are too scared to speak out, afraid they will be seen as a troublemaker, they won't be allowed to pursue a career they have dreamt of whilst unfortunately often it“s men in positions of power and influence, those who have networks, those who are very well connected, will get away with it. and my message to the whips is, that, come up with a code of conduct, away from individual examples, do it in the cold light of day without the heat of a particular day without the heat of a particular day so it can be done without fear or favour, day so it can be done without fear orfavour, so day so it can be done without fear or favour, so we're day so it can be done without fear orfavour, so we're not looking day so it can be done without fear or favour, so we're not looking at, oh, we quite like them so we're not going to come down on them like a tonne of actually, somebody infringes what anybody would think of as acceptable behaviour, they should lose the weight, not be allowed to stand, job done. allowed to stand, 'ob done. would ou like to allowed to stand, 'ob done. would you like to — allowed to stand, job done. would you like to see rishi _ allowed to stand, job done. would you like to see rishi sunak, - allowed to stand, job done. would you like to see rishi sunak, your l you like to see rishi sunak, your leader, the prime minister, in the

commons, where the sanctions recommended today regarding chris pincher is debated? i recommended today regarding chris pincher is debated?— pincher is debated? i don't think we should be voting _ pincher is debated? i don't think we should be voting on _ pincher is debated? i don't think we should be voting on these _ should be voting on these recommendations, they come from the standards committee... do recommendations, they come from the standards committee. . ._ standards committee... do you want to hear him — standards committee... do you want to hear him say _ standards committee... do you want to hear him say something _ standards committee... do you want to hear him say something about i to hear him say something about this? , , ., , . to hear him say something about this? , , .,, . . , ., this? these people are appointed to do a 'ob, this? these people are appointed to do a job. we — this? these people are appointed to do ajob. we as _ this? these people are appointed to do a job, we as parliamentarians i do a job, we as parliamentarians should recognise we've appointed them to investigate serious matters, we should accept the recommendations without forcing a division on it. do ou without forcing a division on it. do you want to hear rishi sunak say, i accept these recommendations? i think the prime minister has an absolute role to play in accepting the recommendations but i think importantly, its party bosses, it“s importantly, its party bosses, it's the whips i want to see absolutely owning up to the fact there is a problem in westminster, coming up with a plan to resolve it, and actually it's the whips office that are meant to be our pastoral care. finally, if there is a vote, do you want to see rishi sunak in the commons that day?— want to see rishi sunak in the commons that day? want to see rishi sunak in the commons that da ? ., , ., . commons that day? i hope there not a vote... commons that day? i hope there not a vote- -- ltut — commons that day? i hope there not a vote--- ltut if— commons that day? i hope there not a vote... but if there _ commons that day? i hope there not a vote... but if there is? _ commons that day? i hope there not a vote... but if there is? i— commons that day? i hope there not a vote... but if there is? i think - commons that day? i hope there not a vote... but if there is? i think the i vote... but if there is? i think the prime minister _ vote... but if there is? i think the prime minister could _ vote... but if there is? i think the prime minister could do _ vote... but if there is? i think the prime minister could do that i vote... but if there is? i think the prime minister could do that for l vote... but if there is? i think the l prime minister could do that for us, i think it would be a really strong signal he is not going to tolerate it, that would send a message to the

chief, get this sorted.— chief, get this sorted. thank you for talking _ chief, get this sorted. thank you for talking to _ chief, get this sorted. thank you for talking to us _ chief, get this sorted. thank you for talking to us on _ chief, get this sorted. thank you for talking to us on newsnight. i this year a record number of migrants have tried to reach europe by crossing the mediterannean from northern africa — more than 60,000 have arrived in italy alone, almost three times more than by the same time last year. at least 1,800 are thought to have died trying to make the crossing, according to figures from the international organization for migration. the departure point for many who attempt the journey is tunisia, where the arrival of tens of thousands of migrants from sub—saharan africa has led to growing racial and community tension. in the last few days that has burst into violence in the northern city of sfax, from where hundreds of migrants are reported to have been forcibly removed and left in a no—man“s land on the border with libya. here's emir.

these are videos taken by sub saharan migrants in tunisia. they say they've been rounded up, beaten and abandoned in no man“s land on the border with libya. video shared with us by the campaign group, human rights watch, which we cannot completely verify, show widespread injury, as well as the destruction of mobile phones. we managed to get through to one of the migrants by phone. lauren sebart has been in touch with some of the group. you have several hundred migrants and asylum seekers stranded there with nowhere to go. from sunday until now we've seen continued mass round—ups and arrests in sfax and the surrounding area, just arbitrary arrests of people pretty

much based on skin colour and nationality, and then nobody“s really being screened for their legal status, so it's not following any sort of due process of law. tunisia has become a launch pad for attempting to reach europe. the city of sfax has become home to transient and more permanent migrants, but this week a tunisian man died following a violent dispute with migrants, sparking groups of locals appearing to violently round—up migrants, seen in unverified videos shared on social media. a migrant from cameroon tells us what he says happened. translation: we heard there was a local tunisian who died in sfax. i after that, the locals came in with weapons, with the police mixed in with them. they broke in and vandalised everything. now they've taken us to the border with libya. right now i can't find my wife and child. how do we stop the boats? for the uk and the eu, teaming up with north african countries is a key pillar of their strategy. just a month ago,

immigration minister robertjenrick visited tunisia to meet the government of increasingly autocratic kais saied. then, delegations of eu leaders followed suit, discussing hundreds of millions of euros in aid to tunisia to support the economy and border control. we both have a vast interest in breaking the cynical business model of smugglers and traffickers. it is horrible to see how they deliberately risk human lives for profit. a whatsapp location pin sent by one of the migrants allows us to see the remote location they were taken to, four hours“s drive from sfax. an mp for sfax says 1200 migrants have been removed this week and he supports it. translation: the strategy is to remove the migrants i who are breaking the law, removing who are breaking the law, removing

them from the urban areas of sfax to them from the urban areas of sfax to restore the peace. restore the peace. i reject the accusations. we moved them in a humane and civilised way. they have everything they need in terms of food and water. the question of opening shelters is something that should be addressed by international organisations. it's just a really catastrophic situation and almost every day a new group of people has been brought down and expelled, so they need food and they need medical care. and there are children. and they need to get out of that military zone where men are shooting guns in the air, and chasing them back and forth. unprecedented numbers of migrants are attempting to leave tunisia this year by the sea. another summer of humanity tested on the mediterranean while aid, money and diplomacy seems to arrive once again too late. we can talk to najet zammouri, vice president of the tunisian human rights league.

thank you for talking to us. what are you hearing about what's going on? . are you hearing about what's going on? , . . . , are you hearing about what's going on? , ._ �*, on? yes, actually, it's right, the ci of on? yes, actually, it's right, the city of sfax _ on? yes, actually, it's right, the city of sfax importantly - on? yes, actually, it's right, the city of sfax importantly has i on? yes, actually, it's right, the| city of sfax importantly has been the scene of several clashes between the scene of several clashes between the local population and sub—saharan migrants settled in the city. bond the local population and sub-saharan migrants settled in the city.— migrants settled in the city. and do ou. .. migrants settled in the city. and do you- - - sorry — migrants settled in the city. and do you- -- sorry to _ migrants settled in the city. and do you... sorry to interrupt, _ migrants settled in the city. and do you... sorry to interrupt, do - migrants settled in the city. and do you... sorry to interrupt, do you i you... sorry to interrupt, do you understand why that might be happening? there are people with not very much to live in sfax and there are people arriving, thousands of people arriving was not very much, and local people are saying this is not sustainable.— not sustainable. yes, but i would like to say _ not sustainable. yes, but i would like to say that _ not sustainable. yes, but i would like to say that even _ not sustainable. yes, but i would like to say that even among i not sustainable. yes, but i would like to say that even among the i like to say that even among the sub—saharan individuals sub—sa ha ran individuals themselves, there sub—saharan individuals themselves, there were conflicts and confrontation, we observe. so these violent confrontations have resulted in casualties on both sides, you know. so of course, as human rights defenders, we condemn this violence and we think that we may... we may