peter williams, pub on the wirral. peter williams, thank you for being with us and staying with me on this. i wonder if we could turn our attention to the weapon that has been used and we have seen pictures of it and i think we will at some point show that image to our viewers. it is called these skorpion. —— the skorpion. a submachine gun. what can you tell us about it? fix, submachine gun. what can you tell us about it? �* ., , ., , about it? a note expert in any reuard, about it? a note expert in any regard. but — about it? a note expert in any regard. but i _ about it? a note expert in any regard, but i understand - about it? a note expert in any regard, but i understand it. about it? a note expert in any| regard, but i understand it has about it? a note expert in any - regard, but i understand it has been linked to other scenes of crime —— i am not an expert in any regard. the fact it has circulated amongst these organised crime group should be alarming to each and every one of us. it needs to be removed as removed as quickly as possible, as does any illegally held firearms. but this illustrates other issues to me here, a wider issue that we need to consider. that is basically what is happening globally affects you locally. for example, the global drugs trade. we have already identified in this conversation earlier about how this is linked to

a drugs trade but globally it has international links and they became far more relevant and poignant with the fall of the berlin wall and the opening of the borders. but sadly, because of brexit, we, the united kingdom, is now out of europe, which was is the go—to place for the 27 member countries for the exchange of intelligence. while we do have a working arrangement, as it is called, that was not signed until nine months after brexit. during that period, we had no arrangement whatsoever. what i can tell viewers is that we have lost access to the euro polishing into computer system —— europol computer system, which was accessed 603 million times

previously, evidence given to the house of lords select committee on third november 2020 by a former director, rob wainwright of europol and assistant commissioner richard martin for the metropolitan police. it brings back what i was saying earlier about that intelligence gap. intelligence is the secret to defeat gun crime. each little piece like a jigsaw makes up a picture and i am afraid we have got a big intelligence gap at neighbourhood level because we lack neighbourhood policing and we have got one in the international level because we out of europe. —— out of europol. we have to look at how we can redress this particular situation.— this particular situation. danny show is also — this particular situation. danny show is also with _ this particular situation. danny show is also with us. -- -

this particular situation. danny show is also with us. -- danny this particular situation. danny - show is also with us. -- danny shaw. show is also with us. —— danny shaw. we have heard from early�*s family, her grandmother reportedly in tears as her statement was read out. just to give you a flavour of what has been said," she was so very, very special to me and my best friend. if i were to die tomorrow, the coroner would write on my death certificate, she died of a broken heart. very powerful words coming from elle's family. one of the other aspects of the court is hearing in at the presentations from the defence and prosecution are aggravating and mitigating sentences, factors, rather. nigel power was going to the aggravating and the defence is now going through those mitigating factors. how important are these particular points in a case and what does it and then mean for sentencing

options? does it and then mean for sentencing o tions? , ., , does it and then mean for sentencing o tions? , . , h, ., options? these are very important moment in — options? these are very important moment in the _ options? these are very important moment in the conclusion - options? these are very important moment in the conclusion of - options? these are very important moment in the conclusion of a - options? these are very important. moment in the conclusion of a court case: _ moment in the conclusion of a court case, particularly forthe moment in the conclusion of a court case, particularly for the family, the bereaved family. they can explain — the bereaved family. they can explain to the court the impact of what _ explain to the court the impact of what has — explain to the court the impact of what has happened to them. this is something — what has happened to them. this is something which did not use to happen— something which did not use to happen 20 years ago. it is a relatively— happen 20 years ago. it is a relatively new innovation in courts, particularly — relatively new innovation in courts, particularly in the most serious cases_ particularly in the most serious cases where people were victims, either_ cases where people were victims, either through a statement that was read out, _ either through a statement that was read out, either in person are read out, _ read out, either in person are read out, the _ read out, either in person are read out, the defendant, the person convicted — out, the defendant, the person convicted has to heed it. the judge will take _ convicted has to heed it. the judge will take that into account in sentencing. it is unlikely to play a greater— sentencing. it is unlikely to play a greater role in the sentencing equation, but it will sometimes make a difference _ equation, but it will sometimes make a difference and it can hammer home 'ust a difference and it can hammer home just how— a difference and it can hammer home just how serious the offending has

been _ just how serious the offending has been the — just how serious the offending has been. the judge has sat through this trial, he _ been. the judge has sat through this trial, he is— been. the judge has sat through this trial, he is fully aware of all the circumstances, he knows how serious it is _ circumstances, he knows how serious it is the _ circumstances, he knows how serious it is. the prosecution has talked about— it is. the prosecution has talked about aggravating factors in how this was— about aggravating factors in how this was planned, premeditated, the shooting _ this was planned, premeditated, the shooting was indiscriminate, people were always going to get hurt. you know, _ were always going to get hurt. you know. if— were always going to get hurt. you know. if you — were always going to get hurt. you know, if you shoot a semiautomatic weapon _ know, if you shoot a semiautomatic weapon in_ know, if you shoot a semiautomatic weapon in an environment like that, that is— weapon in an environment like that, that is exactly what is going to happen — that is exactly what is going to happen, people will be injured or kitten _ happen, people will be injured or killed. the judge will be fully aware — killed. the judge will be fully aware of— killed. the judge will be fully aware of the circumstances, the prosecution will not have to go into any great _ prosecution will not have to go into any great detail, the personal statements really emphasise at the impact _ statements really emphasise at the impact. the defence, there is not very much— impact. the defence, there is not very much it _ impact. the defence, there is not very much it can do by way of mitigation, by giving some explanation or lessening the sentence because of the seriousness of it, sentence because of the seriousness of it. but— sentence because of the seriousness of it. but i_ sentence because of the seriousness of it, but i think it is probably for that— of it, but i think it is probably for that barrister to remind the judge _ for that barrister to remind the judge that this is not a case where a whole _

judge that this is not a case where a whole life tariff is called for. a whole _ a whole life tariff is called for. a whole life — a whole life tariff is called for. a whole life tariff is, of course, where — whole life tariff is, of course, where the _ whole life tariff is, of course, where the killer will spend the last of his— where the killer will spend the last of his life — where the killer will spend the last of his life in prison —— rest of his life in_ of his life in prison —— rest of his life in prison _ of his life in prison —— rest of his life in prison without any prospect of release — life in prison without any prospect of release. i think it is very unlikely— of release. i think it is very unlikely that is going to happen in this case — unlikely that is going to happen in this case. there are some stricter rules— this case. there are some stricter rules which— this case. there are some stricter rules which determine when people can he _ rules which determine when people can be given whole life sentences. i don't _ can be given whole life sentences. i don't think— can be given whole life sentences. i don't think this is one of those cases. — don't think this is one of those cases. but— don't think this is one of those cases, but it will be an extremely hi-h cases, but it will be an extremely high minimum term, i would have thought. — high minimum term, i would have thought, 30 or 40 years, i would e>

kc, is for the defence. he said nothing i say should be taken as an attempt to diminish what conor chaplin did, but there are cases that are even worse than this. my lord has had to deal with more serious cases and so the focus is not mitigation. this is not at the extreme edges of last resort which call for the whole life term. so, danny, what will bring a whole life term? a, danny, what will bring a whole life term? . ., ., term? a whole life term would usually be _ term? a whole life term would usually be reserved _ term? a whole life term would usually be reserved for - term? a whole life term would l usually be reserved for someone term? a whole life term would - usually be reserved for someone who has committed a murder for a second or third _ has committed a murder for a second or third time — has committed a murder for a second or third time or multiple murders or, or third time or multiple murders or. in_ or third time or multiple murders or. in cases — or third time or multiple murders or, in cases where the victim has been _ or, in cases where the victim has been subjected to sexual sadistic abuse. _ been subjected to sexual sadistic abuse, particularly if the victim is abuse, particularly if the victim is a child _ abuse, particularly if the victim is a child. there are also other planning _ a child. there are also other planning and premeditation factors

that have _ planning and premeditation factors that have to go into it. i would have _ that have to go into it. i would have thought the judge may have given— have thought the judge may have given his — have thought the judge may have given his consideration, but i think it is probably unlikely in this case — it is probably unlikely in this case i— it is probably unlikely in this case. i mean, the age of the killer, connor— case. i mean, the age of the killer, connor chapman, 23 also works in his favour— connor chapman, 23 also works in his favour in _ connor chapman, 23 also works in his favour in that — connor chapman, 23 also works in his favour in that respect. he is younger, _ favour in that respect. he is younger, a little bit of latitude is allowed — younger, a little bit of latitude is allowed in — younger, a little bit of latitude is allowed in terms if someone is in their— allowed in terms if someone is in their early— allowed in terms if someone is in their early 20s. certainly if they are younger than that as well. but it was— are younger than that as well. but it was such — are younger than that as well. but it was such an indiscriminate attack that i'm _ it was such an indiscriminate attack that i'm sure the judge would have considered — that i'm sure the judge would have considered it, but i expect that it will be _ considered it, but i expect that it will be in — considered it, but i expect that it will be in at the very high 30s are around _ will be in at the very high 30s are around 40 — will be in at the very high 30s are around 40,— around 40. peter williams is also with us. around 40. peter williams is also with us- mr— around 40. peter williams is also with us. mr williams _ around 40. peter williams is also with us. mr williams is _ around 40. peter williams is also with us. mr williams is a - around 40. peter williams is also with us. mr williams is a former. with us. mr williams is a former merseyside police inspector, also lectures at at the liverpool centre for advanced policing studies at john moores university. peter, what can you tell us about matrix. i understand it has a particular

policing unit that has been set up looking at organised crime? in the merseyside, in the wirral? what more can you tell us? the merseyside, in the wirral? what more can you tell us?— can you tell us? the matrix was actually set _ can you tell us? the matrix was actually set pp _ can you tell us? the matrix was actually set up a _ can you tell us? the matrix was actually set up a number - can you tell us? the matrix was actually set up a number of - can you tell us? the matrix was i actually set up a number of years ago and does notjust operate on the wirral, but across the whole merseyside area, five of the local authority boroughs. initially, it originated from what was called a support unit and that is pretty much what has probably been its foundations and its group in so much it can support areas or divisions, as we used to call them, where there were specific policing problems that basically needed some extra numbers. its role has certainly emerged into a lot more specialist areas now particularly with the development of

the likes of gun crime so some of the likes of gun crime so some of the officers within that unit are very skilled in the area of searching and all those sorts of things. the armed response units can be part and parcel of that if necessary. they can be deployed where necessary, but a lot of what matrix does and its success comes from is where we have got the good intelligence and it is intelligence led operations where we see the most success and that is certainly true of the matrix unit. whilst it operates physically from one central point within the force area, can be and is deployed where needed across the whole of merseyside. it has probably been a very successful initiative to implement matrix, but

its role has certainly developed and they have clearly moved with the policing gender and times because —— policing gender and times because —— policing agenda and times because so much is now technical and specialist and they have proved themselves, their worth and to be very successful. and they are certainly making inroads in the disruption of serious crime. that was acknowledged by the most recent hmi sea report, in which merseyside got an outstanding category. {lilla in which merseyside got an outstanding category. 0k, iwill 'ust outstanding category. 0k, iwill just interruot — outstanding category. 0k, iwill just interrupt there. _ outstanding category. ok, iwill just interrupt there. i _ outstanding category. 0k, iwill just interrupt there. i will - outstanding category. 0k, iwill just interrupt there. i will take i just interrupt there. i will take you inside liverpool crown court to listen to the judge in the case of the sentencing of the murder of elle edwards. you wounded both harry loughnane and liam palmer and causes injury to nicholas speed. —— nicholas speed.

you prepared to fire all 12 bullets at close range at six of them. your intention was to murderjake duffy and ciaran sulk out. but you did not care who else would be killed. that is why you fired all of the bullets at the group. i am satisfied that you are a highly dangerous man. in this trial, we have all watched the cctv and sound recording of that shooting. it is utterly shocking. you carefully planned a revenge attack in gang reverie. you had no fault at all for anyone else, least of all to innocent people —— gang of ivory. the risk of all 16 murdered by you was as substantial as it was obvious. but he did not care. after the shooting, you drove straight to the shooting, you drove straight to the home of your friend thomas waring where you believed you could safely hide the stolen mercedes car

you had driven to the shooting. also the submachine which you had asked wedding to look after and at least one of the gloves in the shooting which produced gunshot residue evidence. you spend the days afterwards removing or destroying evidence which would identify you as the gunmen. you washed the clothes you wore. 0ther clothes and shoes were removed from your home before the police searched it and you destroyed your mobile phone. six days later, on new year's eve, together with waring, you're returned to where the stolen mercedes had been hidden. it was near to where he lived in barmston. the both of you drove the mercedes to a remote place and set fire to it. to destroy any evidence the car might have to identify you, chapman, as the murderer. the background to these offences, as we have heard, lies in violent criminal gang

rivalry between those are connected to the wooden church estate and others connected to the ford estate on the wirral. —— wood church. the violence included shootings during 2021 and 2022 and created very substantial concern to the people of merseyside. 0n the 23rd of december last year, one of your associates was attacked by jake duffy and ciaran salkeld. they were part of was attacked by jake duffy and ciaran salkeld. they were part of the ford estate gang and you decided the ford estate gang and you decided on revenge when you heard of that, on revenge when you heard of that, the carefully planned murder of the carefully planned murder of both. you use the stolen mercedes a both. you use the stolen mercedes a gloves. and class car with false registration class car with false registration plates which you often used for your plates which you often used for your drug dealing. you disguised yourself drug dealing. you disguised yourself with dark clothing, a mask, a hood, with dark clothing, a mask, a hood, gloves. you obtain the submachine

gun and a loaded magazine with 12 bullets. and when you left your home on the wood church estate to carry out the shooting, you took care to avoid security cameras on neighbouring properties. 0nce avoid security cameras on neighbouring properties. once you reached the village where they knew —— you knew they were to be, you waited almost three hours, carrying out reconnaissance as you drove to six different positions until you reach the car park close to the front door of the lighthouse, where you hid inside your