compared to russian cluster munitions the dpicm we will provide ukraine has a very low dud rate. they will only consist of those with a dud rate of less than 2.35%. we base our decision on the needs on the ground and ukraine needs artillery to support its offence and defences operations. some allies signed thatl convention on munitions so there is no cluster munitions to provide to ukraine, - other allies have not. signed the convention. hello welcome to the programme. half of the heavy weapons committed

have to live in so far, we will talk tonight about the us to the decision tonight about the us to the decision to supply cluster munitions to ukraine and the latest request from president zelensky for long—range weapons. the war in ukraine and the resulting energy crisis is weighing heavy on the german economy. figures out today such germany is heading into its longest sustained recession since 2008. data from the first two months of this quarter the alliance meets in vilnius next week, a summit at which ukraine's so lets start with ukraine. a lot of news in the past couple of hours. president zelensky has just landed in istanbul where he has been meeting president erdogan. the turkish leader touts a special relationship with president putin, and has in the past served as a go between.

but he also, stands in the way of sweden's, full membership of nato. an issue that which will be a major part of the discussions when nato meets next week in vilnius. earlier in the day, on his visit to prague, president zelensky was again pitching for long range weapons. without which he said, it will it be difficult for ukraine to mount an effective counter offensive. germany has already shared its concerns, that any strikes beyond ukraine, in russian territory might lead to further escalation. but germany has greater concerns about the decision in washington today to supply ukraine with cluster muntions. a decision confirmed in the last hour by the pentagon. we are working with ukraine to minimise risk associate with the decision. the ukrainian government has offered assurances in writing on the responsible use of dpicm including — that they will not use the rounds in civilian populated urban environments and that they will record where they use these rounds which will simplify leader de—mining efforts.

ukraine has also committed to post—conflict de—mining efforts to mitigate any potential harms to civilians. the us is already invested more than $95 million in ukrainian de—mining activities and we will provide more support to help ukraine mitigate the impact of cluster munitions on both sides of the conflict. fourth, by providing ukraine with dpicm munitions we will ensure the ukrainian military has sufficient artillery munition for many months to come. in this period our allies and partners in the us will continue to ramp up our defence basis to support ukraine. for the past year and a half president biden has been clear that we will support ukraine for as long as it takes. so what are they and why are they so controversial? well each cluster munitions carries large numbers of smaller bomblets, that are dispersed over a wide area. the concern is that those bomblets that fail to explode, then pose a danger to civilians long after a conflict has ended. and for that reason, they're banned in 120 countries.

human rights watch says, both russian and ukrainian forces have used cluster munitions already — killing civilians as well as military personnel. brian, let me come to you on this. one point thatjake brian, let me come to you on this. one point that jake sullivan made brian, let me come to you on this. one point thatjake sullivan made in the white house in the past hour is that the decision was taken because of the urgency of the moment. what do you think he means by that? thank ou for do you think he means by that? thank you for having — do you think he means by that? thank you for having me _ do you think he means by that? thank you for having me on. _ do you think he means by that? thank you for having me on. i _ do you think he means by that? thank you for having me on. i think- do you think he means by that? thank you for having me on. i think the - you for having me on. i think the urgency of the moment is that the counteroffensive that we have all been waiting for and the success we have all expected is just falling short. they need to change the battlefield and the only way is to change the armament. in the weapons being used. clearly cluster bombs is something been banned by many countries, we do not want them used in combat, they are being destroyed, countries are destroying their usage but we are dialled to a desperate point in orderfor the but we are dialled to a desperate point in order for the offensive to

actually be inoffensive the ukraine needs a weapon banned in the us to give them. i needs a weapon banned in the us to cive them. . ., needs a weapon banned in the us to cive them. . . ,., . give them. i made a point earlier that there _ give them. i made a point earlier that there was _ give them. i made a point earlier that there was a _ give them. i made a point earlier that there was a delay _ give them. i made a point earlier that there was a delay in - give them. i made a point earlier i that there was a delay in supplying some of the heavier weapons, do you think a decision like this perhaps because it is a munition that the us would not use and perhaps that it is readily available and they can send it tomorrow. i think because it has devastating impact. we all know and read the devastating impacts that cluster weapons have which is why russia uses them. and why ukraine uses them. i think the fact that they can get the pastor to us is a bonus but the whole point of these weapons is that they have a devastating impact and change the dynamics on the battlefield. i thought on the timescales here. we are going into a election season we cannot take the politics out of this. you said as an american audience sitting at home looking at audience sitting at home looking at a stall counteroffensive, is it imperative, do you think, for the

pentagon and white house to start seeing some progress on the ground so that president berger i can't take that to the country? i so that president berger i can't take that to the country? i think that president _ take that to the country? i think that president biden _ take that to the country? i think that president biden has - take that to the country? i think that president biden has two . that president biden has two 0ctober, that president biden has two october, by the end of this offence if, that is the window he has where he has to go back to the american voters, policymakers and say, even we have made progress orfallen short. bollingerat we have made progress orfallen short. bollinger at this point means an escalation. we are now bringing banned weapons back into conflict. who knows what else will comport after october. at the clock is definitely ticking. president biden still has an opportunity and the ability to make a case of white ukraine is a strategic asset to the us. up until that he has at the back. we sought the bleeding of support. it will only continue to bleed some further as the counteroffensive —— counteroffensive cou nteroffe nsive — — cou nteroffe nsive has fallen counteroffensive —— counteroffensive has fallen short of what everyone expected. has fallen short of what everyone exected. , . ., . expected. there is a huge moral issue here _ expected. there is a huge moral issue here about _ expected. there is a huge moral issue here about the _ expected. there is a huge moral| issue here about the unexploded bomblets. the defence at the pentagon and the national security adviser but for tonight is that in

the areas where these will be deployed, the russians have already sewn a whole load of mines and you would not find civilians in those kinds of areas. i’m would not find civilians in those kinds of areas.— would not find civilians in those kinds of areas. �* ., _, . _ kinds of areas. i'm not convinced by that. we kinds of areas. i'm not convinced by that- we were _ kinds of areas. i'm not convinced by that. we were told _ kinds of areas. i'm not convinced by that. we were told it _ kinds of areas. i'm not convinced by that. we were told it would - kinds of areas. i'm not convinced by that. we were told it would never . kinds of areas. i'm not convinced by| that. we were told it would never be used in _ that. we were told it would never be used in kosovo or iraq in the 2003 war, _ used in kosovo or iraq in the 2003 war. both — used in kosovo or iraq in the 2003 war, both before the convention on cluster munitions came into effect in 2009 _ cluster munitions came into effect in 2009. these are devastating weapons — in 2009. these are devastating weapons. it is notjust their immediate legacy. yes, they do kill indiscriminately, scattered over large _ indiscriminately, scattered over large distances, that means in the past they— large distances, that means in the past they have killed and disturbingly civilian populations, even _ disturbingly civilian populations, even if— disturbingly civilian populations, even if they had been targeting military— even if they had been targeting military targets. the thing is these bombiets— military targets. the thing is these bomblets do lie unexploded for a lon- bomblets do lie unexploded for a long time in many cases because so many hundreds of them are poured out of these _ many hundreds of them are poured out of these cluster munitions. many do not get _ of these cluster munitions. many do not get an— of these cluster munitions. many do not get an a — of these cluster munitions. many do not get an a on impact and therefore they are _ not get an a on impact and therefore they are picked up because they are tennis— they are picked up because they are

tennis ball— they are picked up because they are tennis ball sized by children, later on, especially, ithink tennis ball sized by children, later on, especially, i think it was after the kosovo— on, especially, i think it was after the kosovo war, reports from the un humanitarian envoy at the time of 15 chiidren— humanitarian envoy at the time of 15 children every month being killed or injured. _ children every month being killed or injured, maimed, because of these cluster— injured, maimed, because of these cluster munitions. because they were touching _ cluster munitions. because they were touching and picking them up and 'ust touching and picking them up and just walking over the potentially. they are — just walking over the potentially. they are very dangerous that's why 123 countries have banned the including _ 123 countries have banned the including many of the us nato allies. — including many of the us nato allies, the uk would not supply men, france, _ allies, the uk would not supply men, france, or— allies, the uk would not supply men, france, or germany, so that most of eurone, _ france, or germany, so that most of europe, most— france, or germany, so that most of europe, most of western europe has been that— europe, most of western europe has been that as well. so it will be incredibly— been that as well. so it will be incredibly controversial and it is notjust, — incredibly controversial and it is notjust, i— incredibly controversial and it is notjust, i take the point about miiitary— notjust, i take the point about military impotence here. there's also the — military impotence here. there's also the moral impetus and that is that ukraine is always seen in the coalition— that ukraine is always seen in the coalition always supporting them is seen as_ coalition always supporting them is seen as the good guys in this conflict — seen as the good guys in this conflict you lose that moral high ground — conflict you lose that moral high ground if— conflict you lose that moral high ground if you start using weapons and pointing back and say they use them _

and pointing back and say they use them as_ and pointing back and say they use them as well. ukraine is our use them, _ them as well. ukraine is our use them, of— them as well. ukraine is our use them, of course,. i think it is a technical— them, of course,. i think it is a technical question on the propaganda field. technical question on the propaganda field as_ technical question on the propaganda field. as well in using these weapons. field. as well in using these weapons-— field. as well in using these weaons. . . ~ weapons. can we talk with the veneral weapons. can we talk with the general sunply _ weapons. can we talk with the general supply of _ weapons. can we talk with the general supply of weapons. i weapons. can we talk with the . general supply of weapons. there weapons. can we talk with the - general supply of weapons. there is an interesting report out today about how that has been progressing. some smaller countries, czech republic, slovenia, have come through with about 80% of the weapons that they have pledged. which suggests it is the bigger countries that supplied the bulk of the kit that are failing. why is that? i the kit that are failing. why is that? “ the kit that are failing. why is that? ~ , ., , that? i think it is two things obviously — that? i think it is two things obviously a _ that? i think it is two things obviously a lot _ that? i think it is two things obviously a lot of _ that? i think it is two things obviously a lot of the - that? l think it is two things. obviously a lot of the smaller countries _ obviously a lot of the smaller countries have not got the same high—grade weaponry and sometimes they are _ high—grade weaponry and sometimes they are training issues about different— they are training issues about different armies being trained on more _ different armies being trained on more high—tech systems, uncertain aeroplanes — more high—tech systems, uncertain aeroplanes and so on. but also, i think— aeroplanes and so on. but also, i think there — aeroplanes and so on. but also, i think there is a greater impetus for some _ think there is a greater impetus for some of— think there is a greater impetus for some of the smaller countries that do border— some of the smaller countries that do border russia or not too far away to think. _ do border russia or not too far away to think. it— do border russia or not too far away to think, it could be as next and there _ to think, it could be as next and there is— to think, it could be as next and there is that extra impetus there as

well. obviously we are talking about a question— well. obviously we are talking about a question of scale. germany and the uk and _ a question of scale. germany and the uk and the _ a question of scale. germany and the uk and the these are much bigger, nronetary— uk and the these are much bigger, monetary donations of weapons that are being _ monetary donations of weapons that are being made. ithink it is monetary donations of weapons that are being made. i think it is a complex— are being made. i think it is a complex of things. there are sometimes practical reasons as well why those _ sometimes practical reasons as well why those weapons do not come through— why those weapons do not come through quite so quickly as they do from other— through quite so quickly as they do from other countries. let�*s through quite so quickly as they do from other countries.— from other countries. let's talk about the _ from other countries. let's talk about the nato _ from other countries. let's talk about the nato summit: - from other countries. let's talk about the nato summit: one i from other countries. let's talk about the nato summit: one ofj from other countries. let's talk - about the nato summit: one of the main sticking points which has been discussed in istanbul tonight is turkey boss by continuing veto of sweet and's accession to nato. also discussions as to whether ukraine should be fast tracked into the alliance. no assurances from dick sullivan, none that he can give until they are faced with face next week but how much pressure do you think the white house is bringing to bear on president erdogan? absolute ressure i bear on president erdogan? absolute pressure i think _ bear on president erdogan? absolute pressure i think president _ bear on president erdogan? absolute pressure i think president biden - bear on president erdogan? absolute pressure i think president biden hasl pressure i think president biden has made _ pressure i think president biden has made this— pressure i think president biden has

made this a — pressure i think president biden has made this a priority, _ pressure i think president biden has made this a priority, ukraine - pressure i think president biden has made this a priority, ukraine a - made this a priority, ukraine a priority. — made this a priority, ukraine a priority. so— made this a priority, ukraine a priority. so he _ made this a priority, ukraine a priority, so he will— made this a priority, ukraine a priority, so he will apply- made this a priority, ukraine a i priority, so he will apply absolute pressure — priority, so he will apply absolute pressure the _ priority, so he will apply absolute pressure. the problem _ priority, so he will apply absolute pressure. the problem you - priority, so he will apply absolute pressure. the problem you havel priority, so he will apply absolutel pressure. the problem you have is the 0bama. — pressure. the problem you have is the obama, biden— pressure. the problem you have is the obama, biden at— pressure. the problem you have is the obama, biden at penetration i pressure. the problem you have is. the obama, biden at penetration that created _ the obama, biden at penetration that created this _ the obama, biden at penetration that created this rift _ the obama, biden at penetration that created this rift with _ the obama, biden at penetration that created this rift with turkey _ the obama, biden at penetration that created this rift with turkey so - the obama, biden at penetration that created this rift with turkey so it i created this rift with turkey so it has expanded _ created this rift with turkey so it has expanded over— created this rift with turkey so it has expanded over the - created this rift with turkey so it has expanded over the years i created this rift with turkey so it| has expanded over the years and created this rift with turkey so it i has expanded over the years and it is now— has expanded over the years and it is now at— has expanded over the years and it is now at a — has expanded over the years and it is now at a very— has expanded over the years and it is now at a very critical _ is now at a very critical standpoint. _ is now at a very critical standpoint. turkey- is now at a very critical standpoint. turkey is l is now at a very critical i standpoint. turkey is like to is now at a very critical _ standpoint. turkey is like to have a voice _ standpoint. turkey is like to have a voice that — standpoint. turkey is like to have a voice that is — standpoint. turkey is like to have a voice. that is the _ standpoint. turkey is like to have a voice. that is the way _ standpoint. turkey is like to have a voice. that is the way that - standpoint. turkey is like to have a voice. that is the way that nato i voice. that is the way that nato operates. they— voice. that is the way that nato operates. they are _ voice. that is the way that nato operates. they are not - voice. that is the way that nato operates. they are not the i voice. that is the way that nato operates. they are not the onlyj operates. they are not the only country — operates. they are not the only country that _ operates. they are not the only country that is _ operates. they are not the only country that is having _ operates. they are not the only country that is having other- operates. they are not the only. country that is having other issues with that — country that is having other issues with that of— country that is having other issues with that ofjoining _ country that is having other issues with that ofjoining the _ country that is having other issues with that ofjoining the alliance i country that is having other issues with that ofjoining the alliance of| with that ofjoining the alliance of this is— with that ofjoining the alliance of this is been— with that ofjoining the alliance of this is been a _ with that ofjoining the alliance of this is been a botched _ with that ofjoining the alliance ofi this is been a botched relationship dating _ this is been a botched relationship dating back— this is been a botched relationship dating back to _ this is been a botched relationship dating back to the _ this is been a botched relationship dating back to the obama - dating back to the obama administration. _ dating back to the obama administration. trump- dating back to the obama i administration. trump cooled dating back to the obama - administration. trump cooled it for administration. trump cooled it for a little _ administration. trump cooled it for a little bit — administration. trump cooled it for a little bit but _ administration. trump cooled it for a little bit but it— administration. trump cooled it for a little bit but it has— administration. trump cooled it for a little bit but it has picked - administration. trump cooled it for a little bit but it has picked up- a little bit but it has picked up where — a little bit but it has picked up where it— a little bit but it has picked up where it is— a little bit but it has picked up where it is in— a little bit but it has picked up where it is in now— a little bit but it has picked up where it is in now turkey- a little bit but it has picked up where it is in now turkey is. a little bit but it has picked up. where it is in now turkey is at a very— where it is in now turkey is at a very valuable _ where it is in now turkey is at a very valuable point _ where it is in now turkey is at a very valuable point and - where it is in now turkey is at a very valuable point and they i where it is in now turkey is at a i very valuable point and they know it and they— very valuable point and they know it and they will— very valuable point and they know it and they will extract _ very valuable point and they know it and they will extract things - very valuable point and they know it and they will extract things from i and they will extract things from the us— and they will extract things from the us because _ and they will extract things from the us because this— and they will extract things from the us because this is— and they will extract things from the us because this is such i and they will extract things from the us because this is such a i and they will extract things from i the us because this is such a high priority— the us because this is such a high priority for— the us because this is such a high priority for president _ the us because this is such a high priority for president biden. - the us because this is such a high priority for president biden. on i the us because this is such a high priority for president biden. on the issue of ukraine _ priority for president biden. on the issue of ukraine joining _ priority for president biden. on the issue of ukraine joining nato i priority for president biden. on the issue of ukraine joining nato which| issue of ukraine joining nato which of course president zelensky has talked about tonight in istanbul, nato has an open door policy, there cannot be membership while a country is involved in a territorial dispute. so that rules the night at the moment, but do you sense the trajectory of trouble at the moment is almost inevitable now that ukraine would be admitted into nato?

i think so. looking at other countries around europe, england that does directly border russia, they are keen to join nato after years of nonalignment —— finland. this has been kind of a tactical back file from putin. his idea that this was more of a challenge to nato, their expansion eastwards, actually has encourage countries and reinforce people's fears in those countries of the russian threat, therefore i think it will be inevitable that ukraine does it and people overwhelming back it. it inevitable that ukraine does it and people overwhelming back it. it also has the support _ people overwhelming back it. it also has the support of _ people overwhelming back it. it also has the support of the _ people overwhelming back it. it also has the support of the white - people overwhelming back it. it also has the support of the white house but does that not complicate the piece? but does that not complicate the iece? �* . . but does that not complicate the iece? . , ., but does that not complicate the iece?: , ., , piece? and has the support of this white house. _ piece? and has the support of this white house, it— piece? and has the support of this white house, it can _ piece? and has the support of this white house, it can easily - piece? and has the support of this white house, it can easily come . piece? and has the support of this| white house, it can easily come to an end _ white house, it can easily come to an end within— white house, it can easily come to an end within two— white house, it can easily come to an end within two years. _ white house, it can easily come to an end within two years. so - white house, it can easily come to an end within two years. so i- white house, it can easily come to an end within two years. so i do. white house, it can easily come toi an end within two years. so i do not think— an end within two years. so i do not think it _ an end within two years. so i do not think it it— an end within two years. so i do not think it it is— an end within two years. so i do not think it it is the _ an end within two years. so i do not think it it is the slam _ an end within two years. so i do not think it it is the slam dunk- an end within two years. so i do not think it it is the slam dunk that i think it it is the slam dunk that everyone — think it it is the slam dunk that everyone thinks it _ think it it is the slam dunk that everyone thinks it is. _ think it it is the slam dunk that everyone thinks it is.— everyone thinks it is. you're suggesting _ everyone thinks it is. you're suggesting if— everyone thinks it is. you're suggesting if a _ everyone thinks it is. you're suggesting if a president i everyone thinks it is. you're i suggesting if a president trump everyone thinks it is. you're - suggesting if a president trump was the candidate or that he would block something with that? if he the candidate or that he would block something with that?—

something with that? if he certainly would if he were _ something with that? if he certainly would if he were the _ something with that? if he certainly would if he were the president. i something with that? if he certainly would if he were the president. he l would if he were the president. he has stated — would if he were the president. he has stated time _ would if he were the president. he has stated time and _ would if he were the president. he has stated time and time - would if he were the president. he has stated time and time again i would if he were the president. hel has stated time and time again that ukraine _ has stated time and time again that ukraine has— has stated time and time again that ukraine has not— has stated time and time again that ukraine has not met _ has stated time and time again that ukraine has not met thresholds- ukraine has not met thresholds for it to be _ ukraine has not met thresholds for it to be required _ ukraine has not met thresholds for it to be required to— ukraine has not met thresholds for it to be required to be _ ukraine has not met thresholds for it to be required to be admitted i it to be required to be admitted into nato— it to be required to be admitted into nato and _ it to be required to be admitted into nato and he _ it to be required to be admitted into nato and he is— it to be required to be admitted into nato and he is not- it to be required to be admitted into nato and he is not willing i it to be required to be admittedl into nato and he is not willing to bend _ into nato and he is not willing to bend on those _ into nato and he is not willing to bend on those issues _ into nato and he is not willing to bend on those issues are - into nato and he is not willing to i bend on those issues are sabbatical to challenge — bend on those issues are sabbatical to challenge for— bend on those issues are sabbatical to challenge for ukraine _ bend on those issues are sabbatical to challenge for ukraine and - bend on those issues are sabbatical to challenge for ukraine and that i bend on those issues are sabbatical to challenge for ukraine and that is| to challenge for ukraine and that is why the _ to challenge for ukraine and that is why the time — to challenge for ukraine and that is why the time clock _ to challenge for ukraine and that is why the time clock is _ to challenge for ukraine and that is why the time clock is ticking - to challenge for ukraine and that is why the time clock is ticking for i why the time clock is ticking for president — why the time clock is ticking for president biden— why the time clock is ticking for president biden and _ why the time clock is ticking for president biden and zelensky. i why the time clock is ticking for president biden and zelensky. before we no to president biden and zelensky. before we go to break— president biden and zelensky. before we go to break you — president biden and zelensky. before we go to break you cannot _ president biden and zelenskym we go to break you cannot guarantee the safety of ukraine going forward unless you were prepared to back it up unless you were prepared to back it up with nato support and maybe nato we seejoining nato we see joining nato any point in this episode is a direct conflict with russia. fist this episode is a direct conflict with russia.— this episode is a direct conflict with russia. at some point this counteroffensive _ with russia. at some point this counteroffensive may - with russia. at some point this counteroffensive may or - with russia. at some point this counteroffensive may or may . with russia. at some point this i counteroffensive may or may not with russia. at some point this - counteroffensive may or may not work and if _ counteroffensive may or may not work and if it _ counteroffensive may or may not work and if it does— counteroffensive may or may not work and if it does not— counteroffensive may or may not work and if it does not work— counteroffensive may or may not work and if it does not work you _ counteroffensive may or may not work and if it does not work you will - counteroffensive may or may not work and if it does not work you will end i and if it does not work you will end up with— and if it does not work you will end up with some — and if it does not work you will end up with some type _ and if it does not work you will end up with some type of— and if it does not work you will end up with some type of armour- up with some type of armour test that leaves— up with some type of armour test that leaves a _ up with some type of armour test that leaves a quarter _ up with some type of armour test that leaves a quarter of _ up with some type of armour test that leaves a quarter of ukraine l that leaves a quarter of ukraine still in — that leaves a quarter of ukraine still in russian _ that leaves a quarter of ukraine still in russian hands _ that leaves a quarter of ukraine still in russian hands and - that leaves a quarter of ukraine still in russian hands and the i still in russian hands and the fighting — still in russian hands and the fighting stopping _ still in russian hands and the fighting stopping. then - still in russian hands and the fighting stopping. then what| still in russian hands and the i fighting stopping. then what do still in russian hands and the - fighting stopping. then what do we do? ukraine— fighting stopping. then what do we do? ukraine has— fighting stopping. then what do we do? ukraine has signed _ fighting stopping. then what do we do? ukraine has signed the - do? ukraine has signed the benchmarks— do? ukraine has signed the benchmarks and _ do? ukraine has signed the benchmarks and presidentl do? ukraine has signed the - benchmarks and president trump do? ukraine has signed the _ benchmarks and president trump and a lot of republicans _ benchmarks and president trump and a lot of republicans do _ benchmarks and president trump and a lot of republicans do not _ benchmarks and president trump and a lot of republicans do not believe - lot of republicans do not believe that they — lot of republicans do not believe that they ever— lot of republicans do not believe that they ever will— lot of republicans do not believe that they ever will sweep - lot of republicans do not believej that they ever will sweep serious challenges — that they ever will sweep serious challenges here _ that they ever will sweep serious challenges here in— that they ever will sweep serious challenges here in the _ that they ever will sweep serious challenges here in the presidentl challenges here in the president biden— challenges here in the president biden has— challenges here in the president biden has a _ challenges here in the president biden has a serious _

challenges here in the president biden has a serious challenge i challenges here in the president biden has a serious challenge of making — biden has a serious challenge of making the _ biden has a serious challenge of making the case _ biden has a serious challenge of making the case of— biden has a serious challenge of making the case of why - biden has a serious challenge of making the case of why ukrainel biden has a serious challenge of. making the case of why ukraine is important — making the case of why ukraine is important and _ making the case of why ukraine is important and critical— making the case of why ukraine is important and critical to _ making the case of why ukraine is important and critical to our- important and critical to our national— important and critical to our national interest— important and critical to our national interest which i important and critical to our national interest which he . important and critical to our. national interest which he still important and critical to our- national interest which he still has not. h, l, national interest which he still has not. , t, t, , t, national interest which he still has not. t, t, t, not. important point that no doubt leaders will be _ not. important point that no doubt leaders will be think about - not. important point that no doubt leaders will be think about when i leaders will he think about when they are meeting next week. we'll talk about the effect it is happening in europe notably on germany in a few minutes i. some other news making headlines today. the man convicted of murdering elle edwards has been sentenced to life in prison. conor chapman was told he will serve a minimum of 48 years. elle was an innocent bystander caught up in a gangland shooting outside a pub in the wirral on christmas eve. police have revealed that an 8 year old girl and a woman in her 40s remain in a critical condition in hospital after a landrover crashed through a fence and into a school builiding in wimbledon in south—west london in thursday. an eight—year—old girl died in the crash. police say a 46 year—old woman who was arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving has now been released on bail. caversham school in reading — whose head teacher ruth perry took her own life after inspectors

downgraded it to 'inadequate�* — has now beenjudged 'good' — following a further inspection. ofsted returned to the school injune and said areas including safeguarding had been improved. ruth perry's sister welcomed the new rating saying it proved that caversham had never been a failing school. you're live with bbc news. germany, the economic powerhouse of europe, continues to misfire with data out today that suggests the country is seeing another contraction in their all important manufacturing sector. data from the first two months of this quarter show another downturn — with output dropping by 0.2 percent from april. that sets up the prospect of the longest recession in germany since 2008. the optimism there at the start of the year seems to have evaporated

and the reason for that is the structural problems. so it is the cost of energy, the general effects of supply and demand and the flow of goods. looking at this, you can see why there is such an impatience within some governments to try and find a solution to the war in ukraine. find a solution to the war in ukraine-— find a solution to the war in ukraine. 'ii :: ' ., , ukraine. 10096, the cost of energy and the risk _ ukraine. 10096, the cost of energy and the risk of _ ukraine. 10096, the cost of energy and the risk of doing _ ukraine. 10096, the cost of energy and the risk of doing business - ukraine. 10096, the cost of energy and the risk of doing business has| and the risk of doing business has become too high and too predictable that businesses are suffering greatly as a result of this war. germany is no different. oddly enough they make it closer to spending that 2% of gdp for nato because the gp shrinking not because they are increasing funds. 50 germany fights up in a very difficult position. the window is moving fast. we lucked out with having a very warm winter. we returned by a very devastating winter which would have even driven up winter which would have even driven up and your cost even more. i know we are crossing our fingers and hoping that this one coming up will be warm. but we will have major problems in europe. it is

immigration. all of the structural issues coming to a head at a very difficult and challenging time. in difficult and challenging time. in the uk there are all sorts of indicators that were the government. the latest is the slowdown in the housing sector. house prices have fallen at their fastest rate in 12 years, according to the halifax, while mortgages continue to rise. the annual fall was 2.6%. that's equal to £7,500 being wiped off the average uk house price. you see again another effect on the uk economy. do you think that the housing market is still an indicator about how the economy is performing? i do not think it is. because a lot of the _ i do not think it is. because a lot of the period that the uk economy was stagnant over the last 13 years actually _ was stagnant over the last 13 years actually of — was stagnant over the last 13 years actually of the housing market has been _ actually of the housing market has been booming. for instance, laster, house _ been booming. for instance, laster, house prices— been booming. for instance, laster, house prices went up by 10% which i think— house prices went up by 10% which i think you _ house prices went up by 10% which i think you should put into context, that 2~6%— think you should put into context, that 2.6% drop is still not going to make _ that 2.6% drop is still not going to make housing affordable for the

average — make housing affordable for the average uk citizen. even with that seven_ average uk citizen. even with that seven have — average uk citizen. even with that seven have thousand pound drop in the average house price, the average uk house _ the average house price, the average uk house price is still nine times the average earnings of a full—time employee — the average earnings of a full—time employee in britain today. so housing — employee in britain today. so housing is still deeply unaffordable, completely removed from the _ unaffordable, completely removed from the real economy. it has become a separate _ from the real economy. it has become a separate asset class that is part of the _ a separate asset class that is part of the problem. with our housing systen1~— of the problem. with our housing system. we have to essentially tackle — system. we have to essentially tackle the housing market, we will have to _ tackle the housing market, we will have to build more council housing and try— have to build more council housing and try and — have to build more council housing and try and get rid of some of the speculative investments that are pushing — speculative investments that are pushing up prices of uk housing. that is— pushing up prices of uk housing. that is a — pushing up prices of uk housing. that is a separate issue. the economy, _ that is a separate issue. the economy, the reason it is slowing down, _ economy, the reason it is slowing down, is — economy, the reason it is slowing down, is because interest rates have .one down, is because interest rates have gone up _ down, is because interest rates have gone up making actually the cost of tiuying _ gone up making actually the cost of tiuying a _ gone up making actually the cost of buying a house more expensive, regardless of whether house prices have gone — regardless of whether house prices have gone down slowly because of interest _ have gone down slowly because of interest rates, mortgages are much more _ interest rates, mortgages are much more expensive than they work this time last— more expensive than they work this time last year. therefore, are more out of— time last year. therefore, are more out of the _ time last year. therefore, are more out of the reach of your average tiuyer. — out of the reach of your average buyer, hence prices are dropping. still a _ buyer, hence prices are dropping. still a long — buyer, hence prices are dropping. still a long way from where they need _ still a long way from where they need to— still a long way from where they need to be in order to make housing

truly affordable. i need to be in order to make housing truly affordable.— truly affordable. i guess the point i am truly affordable. i guess the point i am making _ truly affordable. i guess the point i am making is— truly affordable. i guess the point i am making is that _ truly affordable. i guess the point i am making is that all _ truly affordable. i guess the point i am making is that all of - truly affordable. i guess the point i am making is that all of this - truly affordable. i guess the point i am making is that all of this is i i am making is that all of this is interconnected and there are a lot of people out there who are questioning the interest rate policy. many countries are in stagnation. the inflation is large been driven by energy prices and supply constraints. they have put financial, created financial problems for government. do you look at what is happening in the us and uk and think the interest policy is right now? it uk and think the interest policy is riaht now? , ., ., right now? it is hard to tell. i think the _ right now? it is hard to tell. i think the challenge _ right now? it is hard to tell. i think the challenge exists - right now? it is hard to tell. i l think the challenge exists that unemployment is still a little bit hot and that gives these economic specialists, or economic policy people of nervousness, at the end of the day the reason we are having an inflation issue, the reason we are having interest rate rises is strictly because of governments pending. you can call all of the dynamics you went into play in this but inflation is a direct result of overspending of the us government.

that is what is happening here for stuff that happened over spending at a particular time with covid, all of these things coming to an end. it is a direct result of overspending and that ultimately led to a flux of a lot of money being spent at a fast pace. we still have not cooled down. think, we have not cooled down inflation after a two years to focus here and which hauled it transitional when it first started. so no one has real control over this. the spending, people think the spending will continue and inflation rates, will go down and interest rates, will go down and interest rates will go back down from are far from that conversation. i think it is an election year so you are was far from is an election year so you are was farfrom back in position to is an election year so you are was far from back in position to stop people seeing echoes of that here in the uk. , ., ., the uk. there is a feeling out there in resect the uk. there is a feeling out there in respect to _ the uk. there is a feeling out there in respect to housing _ the uk. there is a feeling out there in respect to housing in _ the uk. there is a feeling out there in respect to housing in particular. in respect to housing in particular that we are nowhere near the worst of it because a lot of these fixed rate deals will come to an anti—next year. what happens when people have moved on to interest rates of four and 5%? moved on to interest rates of four and 596? , ., ., ., .,, and 596? they are going to lose their homes unless they _ and 596? they are going to lose their homes unless they are _ and 596? they are going to lose their homes unless they are given - and 596? they are going to lose their homes unless they are given a - and 596? they are going to lose their homes unless they are given a lot i and 596? they are going to lose their homes unless they are given a lot of| homes unless they are given a lot of forbearance — homes unless they are given a lot of forbearance by the banks. but this interest— forbearance by the banks. but this interest rate policy that we have at

the moment in the uk, is a mistake. we raise— the moment in the uk, is a mistake. we raise interest rates in the 80s and early 90s because of the boom and early 90s because of the boom and the _ and early 90s because of the boom and the crash to try and dampen inflation — and the crash to try and dampen inflation that is because we have an open _ inflation that is because we have an open to— inflation that is because we have an open to keeping our economy, high consumer— open to keeping our economy, high consumer demand, rising realwages consumer demand, rising real wages and living _ consumer demand, rising realwages and living standards. we do not have that now _ and living standards. we do not have that now. we have a study in cod liver— that now. we have a study in cod liver growth is minimal, if any of us up _ liver growth is minimal, if any of us up holding living standards. this is actually— us up holding living standards. this is actuallyjust hitting people who are in— is actuallyjust hitting people who are in debt, who have mortgages. this will— are in debt, who have mortgages. this will not — are in debt, who have mortgages. this will not solve inflation. a lot of the _ this will not solve inflation. a lot of the reason for inflation at the moment, certainly in the uk is a widening — moment, certainly in the uk is a widening of corporate profit margins which _ widening of corporate profit margins which we _ widening of corporate profit margins which we have seen globally as well and if— which we have seen globally as well and if you _ which we have seen globally as well and if you look at isabella and other— and if you look at isabella and other comments on this, they are clear— other comments on this, they are clear and — other comments on this, they are clear and in— other comments on this, they are clear and in fact the imf said at the other— clear and in fact the imf said at the other day, it has been turned to greet— the other day, it has been turned to greet inflation but this kind of opportunism of seeing a crisis and making _ opportunism of seeing a crisis and making sure your margins are protected _ making sure your margins are protected in the corporate sector is what is _ protected in the corporate sector is what is feeding a lot rising prices.

of what is feeding a lot rising prices. of course — what is feeding a lot rising prices. of course governments have not been of course governments have not been -ood of course governments have not been good at _ of course governments have not been good at clamping down on that and the governments that have been good for example spain, with a hype but price _ for example spain, with a hype but price controls but they have cap increases — price controls but they have cap increases have got much lower inflation — increases have got much lower inflation because that is a way to tackle _ inflation because that is a way to tackle what is corporate profiteering driving inflation at the moment.— profiteering driving inflation at the moment. , . ., the moment. very much the debate of the moment. very much the debate of the da . the moment. very much the debate of the day- thank — the moment. very much the debate of the day. thank you _ the moment. very much the debate of the day. thank you to _ the moment. very much the debate of the day. thank you to the _ the moment. very much the debate of the day. thank you to the panel - the moment. very much the debate of the day. thank you to the panel for . the day. thank you to the panel for the day. thank you to the panel for the moment. before we go to the break i want to touch on a story that the bbc has been covering today. dangerous and illegal muscle—building supplements, are being sold to gym—goers, across the uk, according to a bbc investigation. the products, which are popular on social media — aren t approved for sale, but the bbc has found them, widely available in shops and online. and experts are warning, they can cause serious side effects. thorrun govind — community pharmacist and spokesperson for royal pharmaceutical society. tell me what these are in what they can do? , . ., , ., can do? these are what people are usina as a can do? these are what people are using as a substitute _ can do? these are what people are using as a substitute to _ can do? these are what people are using as a substitute to anabolic i using as a substitute to anabolic steroids and they are of sleeping

use to achieve this unrealistic muscle mass. but what people have not realised or are not appreciating as the side effects that can result. so hormone imbalances such as mood swings and hormone disturbances, liver toxicity, cardiovascular risks. so it increases the bad cholesterol and decreases the good cholesterol. so really we are encouraging people to stay away from these. they are not for human consumption and we are calling on the government to tighten up the laws regarding these. 50 the government to tighten up the laws regarding these.— the government to tighten up the laws regarding these. so what you are sa in: laws regarding these. so what you are saying is _ laws regarding these. so what you are saying is they _ laws regarding these. so what you are saying is they were _ laws regarding these. so what you are saying is they were never - are saying is they were never approved for human consumption. they should never have been sold. they were for research purposes only? correct. we are encouraging people not to access these. they are not for human consumption and they can to a lot of damage. i think they are part of a wider conversation here about people's access to social media. we have heard about the launch of a new social network over the last 2a hours. office there is a

lot that are driving people to try and obtain these substances. they are not medicines. i think there is also a subreport here with regards to accessing innocence for prescription only medicine to make sure you do that from a regulated source because you want to make sure that the ingredients that are in there are actually the proper ingredients. i there are actually the proper ingredients.— there are actually the proper incredients. . , ., ingredients. i was reading in the article online _ ingredients. i was reading in the article online that _ ingredients. i was reading in the article online that people - ingredients. i was reading in thej article online that people should read, that a couple of months ago people were searching online for these sorts of things. the use of them has gone up significantly in them has gone up significantly in the last five years. how do you stop back with mark it is a niche thing and there is not a public information campaign like the sorts of drugs is there? it is information campaign like the sorts of drugs is there?— of drugs is there? it is about the conversations. _ of drugs is there? it is about the conversations. that _ of drugs is there? it is about the conversations. that fact - of drugs is there? it is about the conversations. that fact we - of drugs is there? it is about the conversations. that fact we all i conversations. that fact we all heard about a little while ago, that contained a lot of these drugs so that we know that there are vast quantities of people using these which is of concern. so really, if you have concerns about your body,

if you're going to do body—building, make sure you are having a conversation with those around you and making sure you stay safe, really. and making sure you stay safe, reall . . ~' ,. , and making sure you stay safe, reall . ., ,, y., , . , really. thank you very much. plenty more on the — really. thank you very much. plenty more on the bbc _ really. thank you very much. plenty more on the bbc website _ really. thank you very much. plenty more on the bbc website on - really. thank you very much. plenty more on the bbc website on the - more on the bbc website on the investigation. important that we brought peoples attention to it. do you do you the parental we will talk to the panel more about the wall street journalists reporter who is still in a russian prison. russia says that there are discussions ongoing, but what can we say more than 100 days in to his detention. and talking aboutjanet in to his detention. and talking about janet yellen today and not pulling punches american companies. hello there. we had quite a mixed weather picture for friday, certainly for scotland

and northern ireland. we started the day with rather grey and cloudy skies, like these. and the rain that we had that started on thursday lasted into the first part of friday morning, bringing about a third of a month's worth of rain in places, so it was really quite a wet spell of weather. even as that cleared, there were just one or two showers that followed through through the afternoon, but generally, the weather at least did turn brighter. further south across england, wales, different story — lots of sunshine, both morning and afternoon, and blue, sunny skies like these in eastbourne were really commonplace. it was also a hot day across parts of eastern england. that's where we had the highest temperatures, with highs hitting the 30—degree mark in london's st james's park, but 28 there for hull and for cambridge as well. overnight tonight, we'll keep those dry weather conditions going for the vast majority of the uk. it's a night where, well, it's going to be quite warm, really, with temperatures for northern ireland, england and wales about 18—20 degrees for our towns and cities. a bit fresher and more comfortable in scotland. tomorrow, well, it should be a fine and sunny start to the day, but showers get going quickly

for northern ireland, wales and western england. they'll turn thundery through the morning, and then into the afternoon, those storms start to leap northwards into northern england into northern england and scotland as well, and scotland as well, with some really torrential downpours possible. now, in the heaviest of those downpours, we could see around 50 millimetres of rain in the space ofjust a few hours, and that could bring some communities flash flooding. but there'll be others at the same time that completely dodge the rain and stay dry, with sunny weather all day. now, the highest temperatures probably again across eastern england — upper 20s here — but 27 or so for northern scotland, where it's going to be a warmer day overall compared with friday. at the wimbledon tennis championships, yes, you might well see a rain delay. there could be some showers around, but they could turn up just about any time. now, saturday, night—time thunderstorms work across northern england and scotland. lots of thunder and lightning in these still with some hefty downpours, and those storms still around for the first part

of sunday, clearing northwards out of the way. might also see some storms come up from france to clip eastern england. otherwise, a dry and sunny morning with showers developing from the south and west into the afternoon with a few thunderstorms around. overall, temperatures a little bit lower, generally low—to—mid 20s, and a fresher feel to the weather as well. the context on bbc news.

hello, i'm christian fraser. you're watching