you had a good weekend. a bbc presenter has been suspended following allegations in the sun newspaper they paid a teenager £35,000 for explicit photographs over a three—year period, starting when the teenager was 17. thoughts are with the alleged victim and family. better perspective here, worse things happen at sea, as they say but it was a distressing weekend, i cannot deny it, for me and others falsely named. i am having further communication with the police in terms of defamation and malicious communication. we will be discussing the social media approach in these situations. as for our nine o'clock conversation, the bbc says it is a complex and fast—moving set of circumstances and it is working to establish the facts. this morning, thejustice

secretary, alex chalke, says the bbc must look at the chronology of allegations, who knew what and when. the met has said it received initial contact from the bbc but no formal referral or allegation has been made. so right now, your reaction to all of this, let's hearfrom made. so right now, your reaction to all of this, let's hear from you. bbc presenter, your reaction. good morning and here is the news. representatives from the bbc are due to meet the metropolitan police to discuss accusations against one of its presenters. the sun newspaper has reported that the presenter — who hasn't been named — paid a teenager for explicit photos. he's been suspended, with the bbc saying it's

working as fast as possible "to establish the facts". president biden is in the uk for meetings with rishi sunak and the king. he's visiting on his way to the nato summit, which starts in lithuania tomorrow. all police forces in england and wales will begin using a new approach to rape and sexual assault investigations from this week. the focus will now be on the behaviour of the accused rather than the alleged victim. a senior us politician is calling on regulators to investigate the energy drink, prime, which is promoted by youtubers ksi and logan paul. chuck schumer claims the drink is being targeted at children, despite its high caffeine content. bottles do carry a warning, saying it's not recommended for under 185.

a bbc presenter, your reaction. we must all proceed with great care. you know that there is a risk of defamation, legal consequences. i don't need to tell you that. let's speak to katie rasul, bbc media editor. and investigations editor at deadline has been a media journalist for many years. stewart purvis will be here, former chief executive of itn, 0fcom partnerfor be here, former chief executive of itn, 0fcom partner for content be here, former chief executive of itn, 0fcom partnerfor content and standards. katie, what is the latest? i standards. katie, what is the latest? ., , ., standards. katie, what is the latest? ., ., ~ ., latest? i mean, you talked about it at the to- latest? i mean, you talked about it at the tap of _ latest? i mean, you talked about it at the top of the _ latest? i mean, you talked about it at the top of the programme, - latest? i mean, you talked about it at the top of the programme, thisl at the top of the programme, this story has been dominating the headlines, starting in the sun newspaper on friday and into saturday but rapidly into other media in the last few days. the sun newspaper does have more claims on its front page today, but the

presenter twice called the young person after he found out about the story, allegedly saying, what have you done and asking them to ring their mum and get her to "stop the investigation". we don't know the truth, these are just allegations. the sun newspaper said the family is upset from the bbc statement yesterday and nobody from the corporation rang them for an interview after the initial complaint. the family said it handed over a dossier of evidence to the bbc. clearly, the family's timeline and the bbc�*s might differ. saying the investigation might have been hampered by making contact with the family. the bbc suspended the presenter, also contacted the police and said that they had new allegations of a different nature from the original complaint that came in on thursday. that is when the sun newspaper contacted them. {131

the sun newspaper contacted them. of a more serious nature? we _ the sun newspaper contacted them. of a more serious nature? we read - the sun newspaper contacted them. of a more serious nature? we read into i a more serious nature? we read into that, if we a more serious nature? we read into that. if we are _ a more serious nature? we read into that, if we are looking _ a more serious nature? we read into that, if we are looking to _ a more serious nature? we read into that, if we are looking to speculate l that, if we are looking to speculate and clearly we don't have all the answers, the suggestion from that, to me, is that the original complaint perhaps was not of the same gravity and potential criminality as the complaint, as what they learned from the sun newspaper on thursday. but we cannot speculate because we don't know, which means there are still a lot of questions for the bbc to answer. great pressure for tim davie on this, he is expected to appear before the media on tuesday, isn't he, on another matter? he will be under a huge amount of pressure, again? under a huge amount of pressure, auain? .. , , under a huge amount of pressure, auain? , , ., under a huge amount of pressure, auain? , , . , again? exactly, he is facing a very rave again? exactly, he is facing a very grave situation _ again? exactly, he is facing a very grave situation and _ again? exactly, he is facing a very grave situation and perhaps - again? exactly, he is facing a very grave situation and perhaps the i grave situation and perhaps the timing of the bbc�*s annual report where he will have to face the media, is probably not the best timing for him, perhaps. but it is very difficult, coming very soon

after previous crises around gary lineker, his tweets and the government's asylum seeker policy and the departure of the chairman, richard sharpe. he is under pressure, the bbc is a public service broadcaster and depends on trust and anything as in the suggestion that trust is being eroded is a problem, i would say. why hasn't the presenter been named? you touched on that at the top, it is for legal reasons. without evidence, there is a risk of defamation. even with a a lot of evans, there is a risk of defamation. and there is an issue around privacy, tim davie said privacy issues are making the case more complex and people have a right to privacy before they have been charged or sent to court. so there

are those issues which mean the bbc has not named the presenter, the sun newspaper also hasn't named the presenter. i would say in its coverage, it isn't super detailed on the specifics of the evidence that they have. so have they seen proof of payments to the young person by the presenter? have they seen, as they were talking yesterday, about they were talking yesterday, about the presenter and a photograph of him in his underpants, have they seen that is it from the mother? i think they have a sworn affidavit from her. they need to be very confident of their story to print it, but you need to be even more confident to name the person. henge confident to name the person. have ou have confident to name the person. have you have spoken — confident to name the person. have you have spoken about _ confident to name the person. have you have spoken about over the weekend, i heard you talking about this radio 4, as i mentioned is also, it was a bit of a social media feeding frenzy over the katie? it was an something you mentioned

again, you are caught up in. clearly, that is the issue about not naming, yes, it may be protecting the person involved, but clearly it means there is a wider net where people start speculating on social media about who the male presenter might be, which has led people like you, quite rightly, to suggest you will take legal action. lots of male presenter is coming out saying, it isn't me, jeremy vine, rylan clark—neal gary lineker over the weekend and thenjon kay. it is unusualfor a presenter weekend and thenjon kay. it is unusual for a presenter to say, weekend and thenjon kay. it is unusualfor a presenter to say, i am on holiday for the next two weeks but i will be back. in this frenzy of social media interest and in the middle of the story, he felt it was necessary to say, that is why he is not on the breakfasts over this morning and will not be for a couple of weeks. people are looking and thinking, who is missing.- of weeks. people are looking and thinking, who is missing. thank you katie, stuart _ thinking, who is missing. thank you katie, stuart purvis, _ thinking, who is missing. thank you katie, stuart purvis, former- thinking, who is missing. thank you katie, stuart purvis, former chief i katie, stuart purvis, former chief executive of itn and former 0fcom partner for content and standards.

good morning. it does seem to be another day, another week, another month, another bbc scandal, doesn't it? it month, another bbc scandal, doesn't it? , ., , ~ ., ., it? it feels a bit like that and uuite it? it feels a bit like that and quite reminiscent _ it? it feels a bit like that and quite reminiscent of- it? it feels a bit like that and quite reminiscent of the - it? it feels a bit like that and | quite reminiscent of the early it? it feels a bit like that and - quite reminiscent of the early days of the _ quite reminiscent of the early days of the jimmy savile affair, which was a _ of the jimmy savile affair, which was a decade ago. that was even more serious _ was a decade ago. that was even more serious for— was a decade ago. that was even more serious for the bbc because it involved — serious for the bbc because it involved a lot of bbc premises, as did the _ involved a lot of bbc premises, as did the stuart hall affair. the bbc looked _ did the stuart hall affair. the bbc looked at — did the stuart hall affair. the bbc looked at itself and got an independent review and made all sorts— independent review and made all sorts of— independent review and made all sorts of recommendations on how it couidu'i_ sorts of recommendations on how it couldn't happen again. as soon as we know— couldn't happen again. as soon as we know the _ couldn't happen again. as soon as we know the full story, the bbc will be judged _ know the full story, the bbc will be judged hy— know the full story, the bbc will be judged by did it learn the lessons ofjimmy— judged by did it learn the lessons ofjimmy savile or, has a forgotten them? _ ofjimmy savile or, has a forgotten them? its — ofjimmy savile or, has a forgotten them? �* , ., ofjimmy savile or, has a forgotten them? �* , . ofjimmy savile or, has a forgotten them? a . ., �* ~ ., them? as katie said, we don't know them? as katie said, we don't know the nature of— them? as katie said, we don't know the nature of the _ them? as katie said, we don't know the nature of the initial— the nature of the initial allegations which came in via the family and the mother and the sun newspaper, as compared with the more recent ones which arose on thursday.

just tell me about the legal obligations of an employer when an allegation is made against someone? first of all you... if you are the chief— first of all you... if you are the chief executive director general, you have — chief executive director general, you have to organise yourself property— you have to organise yourself properly to be able to follow up these _ properly to be able to follow up these allegations. clearly, there is lots these allegations. clearly, there is iots of— these allegations. clearly, there is lots of messages that arrive at an organisation making various allegations. somebody has to do the initial— allegations. somebody has to do the initial safety. that will be where some _ initial safety. that will be where some of— initial safety. that will be where some of these problems arise, somebody may say, that is not worth passing _ somebody may say, that is not worth passing on _ somebody may say, that is not worth passing on. there will be suggestions about how recently did tim jv, _ suggestions about how recently did tim jv, the director—general of the bbc, _ tim jv, the director—general of the bbc, know— tim jv, the director—general of the bbc, know about this case? that would _ bbc, know about this case? that would depend on people beneath him which decide what should go up to his ievet — which decide what should go up to his level. part of the problem when you are _ his level. part of the problem when you are at — his level. part of the problem when you are at the top, are there things people _ you are at the top, are there things people have not told me. once you know— people have not told me. once you know what — people have not told me. once you know what the allegation is, you are

absolutely _ know what the allegation is, you are absolutely responsible for the conduct — absolutely responsible for the conduct of the investigation from that moment on. i would suggest, involving _ that moment on. i would suggest, involving the communications that the organisation puts out. that is where _ the organisation puts out. that is where i_ the organisation puts out. that is where i am — the organisation puts out. that is where i am critical of the bbc for the kind — where i am critical of the bbc for the kind of— where i am critical of the bbc for the kind of communications they put out initially. the statement by tim davie _ out initially. the statement by tim davie yesterday was much better, but the bbc_ davie yesterday was much better, but the bbc has got themselves into trouble — the bbc has got themselves into trouble by appearing to be evasive about _ trouble by appearing to be evasive about what has been going on. that has invited — about what has been going on. that has invited politicians into have their— has invited politicians into have their say— has invited politicians into have their say and that is the last thing their say and that is the last thing the bbc_ their say and that is the last thing the bbc needs.— the bbc needs. some of those politicians _ the bbc needs. some of those politicians are _ the bbc needs. some of those politicians are making - the bbc needs. some of those politicians are making very - the bbc needs. some of those. politicians are making very valid points. the others are kind of the usual suspects when it comes to sticking their boots into the bbc, but they also make valid points. i know you have got to go, what do you make of it? i know you have got to go, what do you make of it? ., know you have got to go, what do you make of it?— make of it? i would agree with a lot of what katie _ make of it? i would agree with a lot of what katie and _ make of it? i would agree with a lot of what katie and stuart _ make of it? i would agree with a lot of what katie and stuart have - make of it? i would agree with a lot of what katie and stuart have said. | of what katie and stuart have said. it is of what katie and stuart have said. it is probably— of what katie and stuart have said. it is probably going _ of what katie and stuart have said. it is probably going to— of what katie and stuart have said. it is probably going to be _ of what katie and stuart have said. it is probably going to be the - it is probably going to be the biggest, _ it is probably going to be the biggest, gravest _ it is probably going to be the biggest, gravest issue - it is probably going to be the biggest, gravest issue that l it is probably going to be the . biggest, gravest issue that tim davie _ biggest, gravest issue that tim davie has — biggest, gravest issue that tim

davie has faced _ biggest, gravest issue that tim davie has faced since _ biggest, gravest issue that tim davie has faced since he - biggest, gravest issue that tim davie has faced since he took. biggest, gravest issue that tim - davie has faced since he took office in septemher— davie has faced since he took office in september2020. _ davie has faced since he took office in september2020. i— davie has faced since he took office in september 2020. i think- davie has faced since he took office in september 2020. i think the - davie has faced since he took officej in september 2020. i think the bbc is damned — in september 2020. i think the bbc is damned if— in september 2020. i think the bbc is damned if it— in september 2020. i think the bbc is damned if it does— in september 2020. i think the bbc is damned if it does and _ in september 2020. i think the bbc is damned if it does and damned i in september 2020. i think the bbc is damned if it does and damned ifl is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't— is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't it— is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't it it _ is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't if it named _ is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't if it named the - is damned if it does and damned if| it doesn't if it named the presenter and perhaps— it doesn't if it named the presenter and perhaps made _ it doesn't if it named the presenter and perhaps made aspersions- it doesn't if it named the presenter and perhaps made aspersions that| and perhaps made aspersions that were not— and perhaps made aspersions that were not correct. _ and perhaps made aspersions that were not correct. i— and perhaps made aspersions that were not correct. i think— and perhaps made aspersions that were not correct. i think there - were not correct. i think there would — were not correct. i think there would he _ were not correct. i think there would he a _ were not correct. i think there would be a lot _ were not correct. i think there would be a lot of— were not correct. i think there would be a lot of questions i were not correct. i think there i would be a lot of questions about that _ would be a lot of questions about that and — would be a lot of questions about that and now— would be a lot of questions about that. and now we _ would be a lot of questions about that. and now we are _ would be a lot of questions about that. and now we are in- would be a lot of questions about that. and now we are in this - that. and now we are in this position— that. and now we are in this position where _ that. and now we are in this position where it _ that. and now we are in this position where it is - that. and now we are in this position where it is difficultl that. and now we are in this i position where it is difficult to name — position where it is difficult to name the _ position where it is difficult to name the individual— position where it is difficult to name the individual involved. position where it is difficult to - name the individual involved because the uk's _ name the individual involved because the uk's strong — name the individual involved because the uk's strong privacy— name the individual involved because the uk's strong privacy and _ the uk's strong privacy and defamation _ the uk's strong privacy and defamation laws. _ the uk's strong privacy and defamation laws. we - the uk's strong privacy and defamation laws. we are l the uk's strong privacy andj defamation laws. we are in the uk's strong privacy and l defamation laws. we are in a situation _ defamation laws. we are in a situation where _ defamation laws. we are in a situation where we _ defamation laws. we are in a situation where we don't - defamation laws. we are in a i situation where we don't know a defamation laws. we are in a - situation where we don't know a lot about _ situation where we don't know a lot about how — situation where we don't know a lot about how the _ situation where we don't know a lot about how the bbc _ situation where we don't know a lot about how the bbc has _ situation where we don't know a lot about how the bbc has handled - situation where we don't know a lot about how the bbc has handled thej about how the bbc has handled the situation _ about how the bbc has handled the situation so— about how the bbc has handled the situation. so it _ about how the bbc has handled the situation. so it is _ about how the bbc has handled the situation. so it is right, _ about how the bbc has handled the situation. so it is right, we - about how the bbc has handled the situation. so it is right, we have . situation. so it is right, we have -ot situation. so it is right, we have got a _ situation. so it is right, we have got a bit — situation. so it is right, we have got a bit more _ situation. so it is right, we have got a bit more information- got a bit more information yesterday. _ got a bit more information yesterday. i— got a bit more information yesterday, i think- got a bit more information yesterday, i think it - got a bit more information yesterday, i think it was . got a bit more information- yesterday, i think it was intriguing to see _ yesterday, i think it was intriguing to see that— yesterday, i think it was intriguing to see that the _ yesterday, i think it was intriguing to see that the bbc— yesterday, i think it was intriguing to see that the bbc is _ yesterday, i think it was intriguing to see that the bbc is trying - yesterday, i think it was intriguing to see that the bbc is trying to - to see that the bbc is trying to suggest — to see that the bbc is trying to suggest that _ to see that the bbc is trying to suggest that the _ to see that the bbc is trying to suggest that the allegations i to see that the bbc is trying to l suggest that the allegations that emerged — suggest that the allegations that emerged last _ suggest that the allegations that emerged last week— suggest that the allegations that emerged last week from - suggest that the allegations that emerged last week from the - suggest that the allegations that emerged last week from the sun newspaper— emerged last week from the sun newspaper aware _ emerged last week from the sun newspaper aware of— emerged last week from the sun newspaper aware of a _ emerged last week from the sun newspaper aware of a different l newspaper aware of a different nature, — newspaper aware of a different nature, that _ newspaper aware of a different nature, that is _ newspaper aware of a different nature, that is the _ newspaper aware of a different nature, that is the phrase - newspaper aware of a different nature, that is the phrase it. newspaper aware of a different . nature, that is the phrase it used to the _ nature, that is the phrase it used to the ones— nature, that is the phrase it used to the ones it _ nature, that is the phrase it used to the ones it received _ nature, that is the phrase it used to the ones it received in - nature, that is the phrase it used to the ones it received in a - to the ones it received in a complaint _ to the ones it received in a complaint back— to the ones it received in a complaint back in- to the ones it received in a complaint back in may. - to the ones it received in a complaint back in may. i. to the ones it received in a i complaint back in may. i think to the ones it received in a - complaint back in may. i think the problem _ complaint back in may. i think the problem for— complaint back in may. i think the problem for the _ complaint back in may. i think the problem for the bbc _ complaint back in may. i think the problem for the bbc is _ complaint back in may. i think the problem for the bbc is that - complaint back in may. i think the problem for the bbc is that it - complaint back in may. i think the problem for the bbc is that it has|

problem for the bbc is that it has been _ problem for the bbc is that it has been accused _ problem for the bbc is that it has been accused of _ problem for the bbc is that it has been accused of being _ problem for the bbc is that it has been accused of being lethargic. problem for the bbc is that it has - been accused of being lethargic when it comes _ been accused of being lethargic when it comes to— been accused of being lethargic when it comes to investigating _ been accused of being lethargic when it comes to investigating these - it comes to investigating these issues — it comes to investigating these issues in — it comes to investigating these issues in the _ it comes to investigating these issues in the past. _ it comes to investigating these issues in the past. jimmy- it comes to investigating thesel issues in the past. jimmy savile it comes to investigating these - issues in the past. jimmy savile was a good _ issues in the past. jimmy savile was a good example _ issues in the past. jimmy savile was a good example. more _ issues in the past. jimmy savile was a good example. more recently, - issues in the past. jimmy savile was a good example. more recently, it l a good example. more recently, it was accused — a good example. more recently, it was accused of— a good example. more recently, it was accused of being _ a good example. more recently, it was accused of being sluggish - a good example. more recently, it| was accused of being sluggish over investigating — was accused of being sluggish over investigating martin— was accused of being sluggish over investigating martin bashir, - was accused of being sluggish over investigating martin bashir, in- investigating martin bashir, in terms — investigating martin bashir, in terms of— investigating martin bashir, in terms of the _ investigating martin bashir, in terms of the allegations - investigating martin bashir, in. terms of the allegations around investigating martin bashir, in- terms of the allegations around him and the _ terms of the allegations around him and the panorama _ terms of the allegations around him and the panorama interview- terms of the allegations around him and the panorama interview with - and the panorama interview with princess— and the panorama interview with princess diana. _ and the panorama interview with princess diana. and _ and the panorama interview with princess diana. and we - and the panorama interview with princess diana. and we know, i and the panorama interview with - princess diana. and we know, because this has— princess diana. and we know, because this has been— princess diana. and we know, because this has been repeated _ princess diana. and we know, because this has been repeated by— princess diana. and we know, because this has been repeated by senior- this has been repeated by senior staff at— this has been repeated by senior staff at the — this has been repeated by senior staff at the bbc— this has been repeated by senior staff at the bbc and _ this has been repeated by senior staff at the bbc and by- this has been repeated by senior. staff at the bbc and by employees, that there — staff at the bbc and by employees, that there is — staff at the bbc and by employees, that there is dissatisfaction - staff at the bbc and by employees, that there is dissatisfaction with - that there is dissatisfaction with the bbc's — that there is dissatisfaction with the bbc's whistle—blowing - that there is dissatisfaction with l the bbc's whistle—blowing policies and its _ the bbc's whistle—blowing policies and its complaints _ the bbc's whistle—blowing policies and its complaints processes. - the bbc's whistle—blowing policiesl and its complaints processes. staff have concerns _ and its complaints processes. staff have concerns about _ and its complaints processes. staff have concerns about the _ and its complaints processes. staff have concerns about the way- and its complaints processes. staff have concerns about the way the l and its complaints processes. staff. have concerns about the way the bbc investigates — have concerns about the way the bbc investigates these _ have concerns about the way the bbc investigates these matters. - have concerns about the way the bbc investigates these matters. stuart i investigates these matters. stuart made the point — investigates these matters. stuart made the point that _ investigates these matters. stuart made the point that the _ made the point that the bbc initially appeared to be evasive. you could also argue that they didn't want to rush to judgment as well. i think there is an element, don't get me wrong, we, on many of on occasion have and relish the opportunity because we are a news

organisation and we report on ourselves, which is quite proper to do so, to have phone—ins kicking the bbc. butjust in mitigation, there is the point, jake, about not rushing tojudgment? is the point, jake, about not rushing to judgment? is the point, jake, about not rushin: to 'udament? ~ , . rushing to 'udgment? absolutely. we have seen rushing to judgment? absolutely. we have seen a good _ rushing to judgment? absolutely. we have seen a good amount _ rushing to judgment? absolutely. we have seen a good amount on - rushing to judgment? absolutely. we have seen a good amount on social. have seen a good amount on social media _ have seen a good amount on social media over— have seen a good amount on social media over the _ have seen a good amount on social media over the last— have seen a good amount on social media over the last couple - have seen a good amount on social media over the last couple of- have seen a good amount on social| media over the last couple of days, people _ media over the last couple of days, people saying — media over the last couple of days, people saying you _ media over the last couple of days, people saying you cannot _ media over the last couple of days, people saying you cannot speculate on the _ people saying you cannot speculate on the identity— people saying you cannot speculate on the identity of _ people saying you cannot speculate on the identity of this _ people saying you cannot speculate on the identity of this individual- on the identity of this individual because — on the identity of this individual because you _ on the identity of this individual because you will— on the identity of this individual because you will get _ on the identity of this individual because you will get into - on the identity of this individual. because you will get into trouble. it is because you will get into trouble. it is not _ because you will get into trouble. it is not appropriate _ because you will get into trouble. it is not appropriate to _ because you will get into trouble. it is not appropriate to do - because you will get into trouble. it is not appropriate to do so - because you will get into trouble. it is not appropriate to do so andi it is not appropriate to do so and you could — it is not appropriate to do so and you could defame _ it is not appropriate to do so and you could defame the _ it is not appropriate to do so and you could defame the individuall it is not appropriate to do so and i you could defame the individual and others, _ you could defame the individual and others, and — you could defame the individual and others, and i— you could defame the individual and others, and i am _ you could defame the individual and others, and i am sorry— you could defame the individual and others, and i am sorry to _ you could defame the individual and others, and i am sorry to hear- you could defame the individual and others, and i am sorry to hear you l others, and i am sorry to hear you have _ others, and i am sorry to hear you have found — others, and i am sorry to hear you have found this _ others, and i am sorry to hear you have found this out, _ others, and i am sorry to hear you have found this out, nikki. - others, and i am sorry to hear you have found this out, nikki. so- others, and i am sorry to hear you have found this out, nikki. so you j have found this out, nikki. so you cannot— have found this out, nikki. so you cannot rush — have found this out, nikki. so you cannot rush to _ have found this out, nikki. so you cannot rush tojudgment, - have found this out, nikki. so you cannot rush to judgment, but - have found this out, nikki. so you cannot rush tojudgment, but i- have found this out, nikki. so you i cannot rush tojudgment, but i also think— cannot rush tojudgment, but i also think that _ cannot rush tojudgment, but i also think that people are _ cannot rush tojudgment, but i also think that people are rushing - cannot rush tojudgment, but i also think that people are rushing to- think that people are rushing to judgment — think that people are rushing to judgment about— think that people are rushing to judgment about the _ think that people are rushing to judgment about the bbc's - think that people are rushing to- judgment about the bbc's processes and response — judgment about the bbc's processes and response to _ judgment about the bbc's processes and response to this. _ judgment about the bbc's processes and response to this. as _ judgment about the bbc's processes and response to this. as i _ judgment about the bbc's processes and response to this. as i say, - judgment about the bbc's processes and response to this. as i say, we i and response to this. as i say, we do not _ and response to this. as i say, we do not have — and response to this. as i say, we do not have the _ and response to this. as i say, we do not have the full— and response to this. as i say, we do not have the full evidence - and response to this. as i say, we do not have the full evidence and i and response to this. as i say, wel do not have the full evidence and it could _ do not have the full evidence and it could be _ do not have the full evidence and it could be that — do not have the full evidence and it could be that the _ do not have the full evidence and it could be that the bbc _ do not have the full evidence and it could be that the bbc has - do not have the full evidence and it could be that the bbc has done - could be that the bbc has done everything _ could be that the bbc has done everything by— could be that the bbc has done everything by the _ could be that the bbc has done everything by the letter- could be that the bbc has done everything by the letter of - could be that the bbc has done everything by the letter of its l everything by the letter of its rules — everything by the letter of its rules and _ everything by the letter of its rules and unfortunately, - everything by the letter of its rules and unfortunately, that| everything by the letter of its - rules and unfortunately, that may

not prove — rules and unfortunately, that may not prove to — rules and unfortunately, that may not prove to be _ rules and unfortunately, that may not prove to be enough. - rules and unfortunately, that may not prove to be enough. but - rules and unfortunately, that may not prove to be enough. but the i rules and unfortunately, that may. not prove to be enough. but the bbc may, _ not prove to be enough. but the bbc may, in— not prove to be enough. but the bbc may, in the — not prove to be enough. but the bbc may, in the fullness _ not prove to be enough. but the bbc may, in the fullness of— not prove to be enough. but the bbc may, in the fullness of time - not prove to be enough. but the bbc may, in the fullness of time say, - not prove to be enough. but the bbc may, in the fullness of time say, we| may, in the fullness of time say, we followed _ may, in the fullness of time say, we followed our— may, in the fullness of time say, we followed our rules _ may, in the fullness of time say, we followed our rules to _ may, in the fullness of time say, we followed our rules to the _ may, in the fullness of time say, we followed our rules to the letter - followed our rules to the letter here _ followed our rules to the letter here. , , ., followed our rules to the letter here. , ., , , followed our rules to the letter here. , ., here. just to pick up your initial answer, here. just to pick up your initial answer. you — here. just to pick up your initial answer, you think _ here. just to pick up your initial answer, you think this - here. just to pick up your initial answer, you think this is - here. just to pick up your initial answer, you think this is as - here. just to pick up your initial answer, you think this is as big| here. just to pick up your initial i answer, you think this is as big as jimmy savile, potentially in different ways, but you think this is a potentially terrible moment for the bbc? i is a potentially terrible moment for the bbc? “ is a potentially terrible moment for the bbc? ~ , , ., ., , the bbc? i think this is going to be an extremely _ the bbc? i think this is going to be an extremely difficult _ the bbc? i think this is going to be an extremely difficult moment - the bbc? i think this is going to be an extremely difficult moment for| an extremely difficult moment for the bbc, — an extremely difficult moment for the bbc, absolutely. _ an extremely difficult moment for the bbc, absolutely. it— an extremely difficult moment for the bbc, absolutely. it is- an extremely difficult moment for the bbc, absolutely. it is clear. an extremely difficult moment for| the bbc, absolutely. it is clear the individual— the bbc, absolutely. it is clear the individual at — the bbc, absolutely. it is clear the individual at the _ the bbc, absolutely. it is clear the individual at the centre _ the bbc, absolutely. it is clear the individual at the centre of- the bbc, absolutely. it is clear the individual at the centre of these i individual at the centre of these allegations _ individual at the centre of these allegations is _ individual at the centre of these allegations is extremely - individual at the centre of these allegations is extremely high i allegations is extremely high profile — allegations is extremely high profile you _ allegations is extremely high profile. you have _ allegations is extremely high profile. you have seen- allegations is extremely high profile. you have seen that l allegations is extremely highl profile. you have seen that in allegations is extremely high - profile. you have seen that in the coverage — profile. you have seen that in the coverage that _ profile. you have seen that in the coverage that has _ profile. you have seen that in the coverage that has been _ profile. you have seen that in the coverage that has been coming. profile. you have seen that in the. coverage that has been coming out over the _ coverage that has been coming out over the weekend. _ coverage that has been coming out over the weekend. as _ coverage that has been coming out over the weekend. as always, - coverage that has been coming out over the weekend. as always, withj over the weekend. as always, with these _ over the weekend. as always, with these issues, — over the weekend. as always, with these issues, if— over the weekend. as always, with these issues, if the _ over the weekend. as always, with these issues, if the bbc— over the weekend. as always, with these issues, if the bbc is - over the weekend. as always, with these issues, if the bbc is found i over the weekend. as always, with| these issues, if the bbc is found to have been— these issues, if the bbc is found to have been deficient _ these issues, if the bbc is found to have been deficient in _ these issues, if the bbc is found to have been deficient in the - these issues, if the bbc is found to have been deficient in the way - these issues, if the bbc is found to have been deficient in the way that| have been deficient in the way that it responded, — have been deficient in the way that it responded, sometimes- have been deficient in the way that it responded, sometimes the - have been deficient in the way that - it responded, sometimes the cover—up can be _ it responded, sometimes the cover—up can be just _ it responded, sometimes the cover—up can be just as— it responded, sometimes the cover—up can be just as bad, _ it responded, sometimes the cover—up can be just as bad, if— it responded, sometimes the cover—up can be just as bad, if not— it responded, sometimes the cover—up can be just as bad, if not worse - can be just as bad, if not worse than _ can be just as bad, if not worse than the — can be just as bad, if not worse than the initial—

can be just as bad, if not worse than the initial wrongdoing. - can be just as bad, if not worse than the initialwrongdoing. i. can be just as bad, if not worse. than the initial wrongdoing. i am not suggesting _ than the initial wrongdoing. i am not suggesting in— than the initial wrongdoing. i am not suggesting in any— than the initial wrongdoing. i am not suggesting in any way- than the initial wrongdoing. i am not suggesting in any way there i than the initial wrongdoing. i am i not suggesting in any way there has been a _ not suggesting in any way there has been a cover-up _ not suggesting in any way there has been a cover—up. i— not suggesting in any way there has been a cover—up. i believe, - not suggesting in any way there has been a cover—up. i believe, i- not suggesting in any way there has been a cover—up. i believe, i think. been a cover—up. i believe, i think the bbc_ been a cover—up. i believe, i think the bbc will— been a cover—up. i believe, i think the bbc will probably— been a cover—up. i believe, i think the bbc will probably show- been a cover—up. i believe, i think the bbc will probably show that i been a cover—up. i believe, i think the bbc will probably show that it| the bbc will probably show that it has responded _ the bbc will probably show that it has responded to _ the bbc will probably show that it has responded to these _ the bbc will probably show that it. has responded to these allegations with seriousness. _ has responded to these allegations with seriousness.— with seriousness. jake, thank you very much — with seriousness. jake, thank you very much indeed. _ with seriousness. jake, thank you very much indeed. i _ with seriousness. jake, thank you very much indeed. i will- with seriousness. jake, thank you very much indeed. i will be - with seriousness. jake, thank you very much indeed. i will be right. very much indeed. i will be right back with you katie and right back with you, stuart. it is excellent that you are both third this morning to guide us through this. lynn in york. ., , ., york. hello, lynne. good morning, nikki. it york. hello, lynne. good morning, nikki- it is— york. hello, lynne. good morning, nikki. it is great _ york. hello, lynne. good morning, nikki. it is great to _ york. hello, lynne. good morning, nikki. it is great to hear— york. hello, lynne. good morning, nikki. it is great to hear from - york. hello, lynne. good morning, nikki. it is great to hear from the l nikki. it is great to hear from the licence fee _ nikki. it is great to hear from the licence fee payers _ nikki. it is great to hear from the licence fee payers on _ nikki. it is great to hear from the licence fee payers on this - nikki. it is great to hear from the licence fee payers on this as - nikki. it is great to hear from the | licence fee payers on this as well. i don't normally do this but i am so angry that you and other people have had to come forward for something thatis had to come forward for something that is nothing to do with you. i am so angry and cross and ijust that is nothing to do with you. i am so angry and cross and i just want to know that you are all right? i am nood, to know that you are all right? i am good. thank — to know that you are all right? i am good. thank you- — to know that you are all right? i am good, thank you. i _ to know that you are all right? i am good, thank you. i think _ to know that you are all right? i am good, thank you. i thinkjeremy and also others involved as well, rylan clark—neal and also gary and others.

it is uncomfortable, but as i said worse things happen at sea. you know, we are big boys but we are discussing the whole social media aspect of this later on. how did we get, i guess that is what you are saying? i get, i guess that is what you are sa int ? ., get, i guess that is what you are sa in. ? ., , ., get, i guess that is what you are sa in? . . get, i guess that is what you are sa int? . . ,, saying? i am so cross, because i soke to saying? i am so cross, because i spoke to an _ saying? i am so cross, because i spoke to an editor _ saying? i am so cross, because i spoke to an editor called - saying? i am so cross, because i| spoke to an editor called richard. saying? i am so cross, because i. spoke to an editor called richard. i just explained to him and i don't do high sake and i don't do twitter. face ache! i high sake and i don't do twitter. face ache!— high sake and i don't do twitter. face ache! i know, i am so cross that ou face ache! i know, i am so cross that you had _ face ache! i know, i am so cross that you had to _ face ache! i know, i am so cross that you had to come _ face ache! i know, i am so cross that you had to come forward, i | that you had to come forward, i don't do the internet, i find that you had to come forward, i don't do the internet, ifind it is a lethal weapon, so i don't do it. anything i have seen has been on the news and my heart went out to you and other people who have had to come forward to say it is not you. i find it terrible, i am so angry, i cannot tell you how angry i am. it

is a bad thing, me coming on television, which i wouldn't normally do but i wanted to make sure you've all right and everybody else is all right you have had to come forward to say it is not them. that is very kind of you, but it is fine. katie, there is an important point, that with the nature of social media, it is another aspect for a high profile company broadcast organisation by the bbc, how they handle all this stuff, katie? completely. the bbc is balance are quite _ completely. the bbc is balance are quite a _ completely. the bbc is balance are quite a lot — completely. the bbc is balance are quite a lot of different factors here — quite a lot of different factors here. clearly, they are balancing the interests of the licence fee payer— the interests of the licence fee payer and that is very important part of— payer and that is very important part of their role, but they are also _ part of their role, but they are also an— part of their role, but they are also an employer, who is balancing the interests and rights, contractual obligations it has towards _ contractual obligations it has towards this presenter. and then throw— towards this presenter. and then throw into — towards this presenter. and then throw into that, trying to tread

this line — throw into that, trying to tread this line and a very difficult balance _ this line and a very difficult balance, throw into that, social media — balance, throw into that, social media when names are being thrown around _ media when names are being thrown around left, — media when names are being thrown around left, right and centre and the by—product of that is that other presenters— the by—product of that is that other presenters want to come out and say it isn't— presenters want to come out and say it isn't me _ presenters want to come out and say it isn't me. also if they are being accused — it isn't me. also if they are being accused of— it isn't me. also if they are being accused of something on social media, _ accused of something on social media, like you, you want to make sure _ media, like you, you want to make sure that _ media, like you, you want to make sure that you make clear to those people _ sure that you make clear to those people that this is a legal what you are doing _ people that this is a legal what you are doing and i am going to come after— are doing and i am going to come after you — are doing and i am going to come afteryou. because i are doing and i am going to come after you. because i car some was talking — after you. because i car some was talking this _ after you. because i car some was talking this morning, one of the government ministers about the internet — government ministers about the internet being a story. we have to be very— internet being a story. we have to be very careful and radio and television and online platforms, to make _ television and online platforms, to make sure — television and online platforms, to make sure we stick within the law, guite _ make sure we stick within the law, quite appropriately and quite importantly. out there on the internet. _ importantly. out there on the internet, it is a completely different matter.— internet, it is a completely different matter. ., , different matter. there have been some quite _ different matter. there have been some quite high — different matter. there have been some quite high profile _ different matter. there have been some quite high profile previous l some quite high profile previous cases when people have fallen foul of the law, because they loosen their collar and thought that anything goes on social media? they

came a cropper?_ came a cropper? absolutely, people miaht came a cropper? absolutely, people might remember _ came a cropper? absolutely, people might remember sally _ came a cropper? absolutely, people might remember sally bercow- came a cropper? absolutely, people might remember sally bercow who i might remember sally bercow who tweeted _ might remember sally bercow who tweeted about lord mcalpine and it proved _ tweeted about lord mcalpine and it proved to _ tweeted about lord mcalpine and it proved to be entirely inaccurate and had to— proved to be entirely inaccurate and had to pay— proved to be entirely inaccurate and had to pay substantial damages. that is what _ had to pay substantial damages. that is what is _ had to pay substantial damages. that is what is at _ had to pay substantial damages. that is what is at stake, people think i am writing — is what is at stake, people think i am writing something on the internet and i'm _ am writing something on the internet and i'm putting thisjoke on social media _ and i'm putting thisjoke on social media and — and i'm putting thisjoke on social media and playing presenter bingo or whatever— media and playing presenter bingo or whatever else has been going round, but you _ whatever else has been going round, but you could end up with a big fine _ but you could end up with a big fine, because it is against the law. let's _ fine, because it is against the law. let's go _ fine, because it is against the law. let's go to— fine, because it is against the law. let's go to another lynn. lynn in bristol, hello.— let's go to another lynn. lynn in bristol, hello. hello, how are you. i am bristol, hello. hello, how are you. lam fine- — bristol, hello. hello, how are you. i am fine. proceeding _ bristol, hello. hello, how are you. i am fine. proceeding with - bristol, hello. hello, how are you. i am fine. proceeding with care, i i am fine. proceeding with care, what would you like to say about this? ~ ., what would you like to say about this? . ., .., what would you like to say about this? ~ . . ., ., what would you like to say about this? ~ . .. ., ., ~ this? with great care. i have worked in and around _ this? with great care. i have worked in and around hr— this? with great care. i have worked in and around hr for— this? with great care. i have worked in and around hr for 30 _ this? with great care. i have worked in and around hr for 30 years, - in and around hr for 30 years, regulated _ in and around hr for 30 years, regulated environments, - regulated environments, non—regulated _ regulated environments, - non—regulated environments and i 'ust non—regulated environments and i just find _ non—regulated environments and i just find it — non—regulated environments and i just find it astonishing _ non—regulated environments and i just find it astonishing to - non—regulated environments and i just find it astonishing to this - non—regulated environments and i just find it astonishing to this dayl

just find it astonishing to this day that people — just find it astonishing to this day that people feel— just find it astonishing to this day that people feel the _ just find it astonishing to this day that people feel the need - just find it astonishing to this day that people feel the need to - just find it astonishing to this day. that people feel the need tojudge, feel the _ that people feel the need tojudge, feel the need — that people feel the need tojudge, feel the need to _ that people feel the need tojudge, feel the need to put _ that people feel the need tojudge, feel the need to put anything - that people feel the need tojudge, feel the need to put anything out i feel the need to put anything out into the — feel the need to put anything out into the public— feel the need to put anything out into the public domain _ feel the need to put anything out into the public domain until - feel the need to put anything out into the public domain until the i into the public domain until the investigation _ into the public domain until the investigation has _ into the public domain until the investigation has taken - into the public domain until the investigation has taken place, i into the public domain until the . investigation has taken place, full and fair, — investigation has taken place, full and fair, in — investigation has taken place, full and fair, in the _ investigation has taken place, full and fair, in the workplace, - investigation has taken place, full| and fair, in the workplace, outside of the _ and fair, in the workplace, outside of the workplace. _ and fair, in the workplace, outside of the workplace. people - and fair, in the workplace, outside of the workplace. people are - and fair, in the workplace, outside of the workplace. people are put l and fair, in the workplace, outside | of the workplace. people are put in this situation _ of the workplace. people are put in this situation. how, _ of the workplace. people are put in this situation. how, how— of the workplace. people are put in this situation. how, how on - of the workplace. people are put in this situation. how, how on earth l of the workplace. people are put in. this situation. how, how on earth do people _ this situation. how, how on earth do people think — this situation. how, how on earth do people think that _ this situation. how, how on earth do people think that it _ this situation. how, how on earth do people think that it is _ this situation. how, how on earth do people think that it is ok? _ this situation. how, how on earth do people think that it is ok? i- this situation. how, how on earth do people think that it is ok? i mean, i people think that it is ok? i mean, i people think that it is ok? i mean, i was _ people think that it is ok? i mean, i was left, — people think that it is ok? i mean, i was left, many— people think that it is ok? i mean, i was left, many years _ people think that it is ok? i mean, i was left, many years ago, - people think that it is ok? i mean, i was left, many years ago, with i i was left, many years ago, with working — i was left, many years ago, with working with _ i was left, many years ago, with working with psychologists - i was left, many years ago, with working with psychologists and i i was left, many years ago, with - working with psychologists and i was -iven working with psychologists and i was given something _ working with psychologists and i was given something which, _ working with psychologists and i was given something which, to— working with psychologists and i was given something which, to this - working with psychologists and i was given something which, to this day, i given something which, to this day, and i_ given something which, to this day, and i have _ given something which, to this day, and i have maintained, _ given something which, to this day, and i have maintained, which- given something which, to this day, and i have maintained, which is, - and i have maintained, which is, when _ and i have maintained, which is, when the — and i have maintained, which is, when the internet _ and i have maintained, which is, when the internet was _ and i have maintained, which is,j when the internet was conceived and i have maintained, which is, - when the internet was conceived and all of these _ when the internet was conceived and all of these platforms _ when the internet was conceived and all of these platforms were - when the internet was conceived and all of these platforms were starting i all of these platforms were starting to be set _ all of these platforms were starting to be set up. — all of these platforms were starting to be set up. he_ all of these platforms were starting to be set up, he said _ all of these platforms were starting to be set up, he said to— all of these platforms were starting to be set up, he said to me, - all of these platforms were starting to be set up, he said to me, for. to be set up, he said to me, for god's_ to be set up, he said to me, for god's sake _ to be set up, he said to me, for god's sake, don't— to be set up, he said to me, for god's sake, don't go— to be set up, he said to me, for god's sake, don't go on- to be set up, he said to me, for

god's sake, don't go on there. i to be set up, he said to me, for- god's sake, don't go on there. don't put yourself — god's sake, don't go on there. don't put yourself on _ god's sake, don't go on there. don't put yourself on there, _ god's sake, don't go on there. don't put yourself on there, don't - god's sake, don't go on there. don't put yourself on there, don't put - put yourself on there, don't put pictures— put yourself on there, don't put pictures of— put yourself on there, don't put pictures of yourself— put yourself on there, don't put pictures of yourself on - put yourself on there, don't put pictures of yourself on there, i put yourself on there, don't put. pictures of yourself on there, don't write _ pictures of yourself on there, don't write things — pictures of yourself on there, don't write things on _ pictures of yourself on there, don't write things on there _ pictures of yourself on there, don't write things on there because - pictures of yourself on there, don't write things on there because it - pictures of yourself on there, don't write things on there because it isi write things on there because it is going _ write things on there because it is going to _ write things on there because it is going to be — write things on there because it is going to be a _ write things on there because it is going to be a hell— write things on there because it is going to be a hell hole. _ write things on there because it is going to be a hell hole. and - write things on there because it is going to be a hell hole. and that. write things on there because it isl going to be a hell hole. and that is exactly— going to be a hell hole. and that is exactly what — going to be a hell hole. and that is exactly what the _ going to be a hell hole. and that is exactly what the internet - going to be a hell hole. and that is exactly what the internet has - going to be a hell hole. and that is. exactly what the internet has turned into, a _ exactly what the internet has turned into, a hellhole. _ exactly what the internet has turned into, a hellhole. all— exactly what the internet has turned into, a hellhole. all of— exactly what the internet has turned into, a hellhole. all of these - into, a hellhole. all of these people — into, a hellhole. all of these people who _ into, a hellhole. all of these people who now— into, a hellhole. all of these people who now feel - into, a hellhole. all of these people who now feel the - into, a hellhole. all of these i people who now feel the need into, a hellhole. all of these - people who now feel the need to put out statements — people who now feel the need to put out statements and _ people who now feel the need to put out statements and you _ people who now feel the need to put out statements and you know, - people who now feel the need to put out statements and you know, say. people who now feel the need to put out statements and you know, say itj out statements and you know, say it is not _ out statements and you know, say it is not me _ out statements and you know, say it is not me that— out statements and you know, say it is not me. that shouldn't _ out statements and you know, say it is not me. that shouldn't be - is not me. that shouldn't be necessary. _ is not me. that shouldn't be necessary. it— is not me. that shouldn't be necessary, it should - is not me. that shouldn't be necessary, it should never. is not me. that shouldn't bel necessary, it should never be necessary _ necessary, it should never be necessary. yes. _ necessary, it should never be l necessary. yes, investigations should — necessary. yes, investigations should be _ necessary. yes, investigations should be taking _ necessary. yes, investigations should be taking place - necessary. yes, investigations should be taking place inside i necessary. yes, investigations . should be taking place inside the bbc _ should be taking place inside the bbc those — should be taking place inside the bbc. those should _ should be taking place inside the bbc. those should be _ should be taking place inside the bbc. those should be private. i bbc. those should be private. everything _ bbc. those should be private. everything should _ bbc. those should be private. everything should be - bbc. those should be private. everything should be private. i bbc. those should be private. . everything should be private. the police _ everything should be private. the police should _ everything should be private. the police should be _ everything should be private. the police should be investigating - everything should be private. the| police should be investigating and why newspapers _ police should be investigating and why newspapers and _ police should be investigating and why newspapers and why - police should be investigating and why newspapers and why the - police should be investigating and - why newspapers and why the internet and people _ why newspapers and why the internet and people on— why newspapers and why the internet and people on the _ why newspapers and why the internet and people on the internet— why newspapers and why the internet and people on the internet feel- why newspapers and why the internet and people on the internet feel that l and people on the internet feel that they have _ and people on the internet feel that they have a — and people on the internet feel that they have a license _ and people on the internet feel that they have a license to _ and people on the internet feel that they have a license to do _ and people on the internet feel that they have a license to do things - they have a license to do things like this, — they have a license to do things like this, i— they have a license to do things like this, ifind— they have a license to do things like this, i find abhorrent - they have a license to do things like this, i find abhorrent and l they have a license to do things . like this, i find abhorrent and that is where _ like this, i find abhorrent and that is where i— like this, i find abhorrent and that is where i am _ like this, i find abhorrent and that is where i am with— like this, i find abhorrent and that is where i am with it. _

like this, i find abhorrent and that is where i am with it. because - like this, i find abhorrent and that is where i am with it. because i. is where i am with it. because i know— is where i am with it. because i khowiust — is where i am with it. because i khowiust how— is where i am with it. because i knowjust how wrong, - is where i am with it. because i knowjust how wrong, how - is where i am with it. because i. knowjust how wrong, how wrong perceptioh — knowjust how wrong, how wrong perception can _ knowjust how wrong, how wrong perception can be. _ knowjust how wrong, how wrong perception can be. so— knowjust how wrong, how wrong perception can be.— knowjust how wrong, how wrong perception can be. so having been an hr professional, _ perception can be. so having been an hr professional, if _ perception can be. so having been an hr professional, if you _ perception can be. so having been an hr professional, if you were - perception can be. so having been an hr professional, if you were sitting i hr professional, if you were sitting around the boardroom table today, as all the bbc hierarchy will be, what would you say to them? i all the bbc hierarchy will be, what would you say to them?— all the bbc hierarchy will be, what would you say to them? i would say ou no to would you say to them? i would say you go to the _ would you say to them? i would say you go to the centre _ would you say to them? i would say you go to the centre of— would you say to them? i would say you go to the centre of the - would you say to them? i would say you go to the centre of the matter, | you go to the centre of the matter, which _ you go to the centre of the matter, which is _ you go to the centre of the matter, which is the — you go to the centre of the matter, which is the person _ you go to the centre of the matter, which is the person that _ you go to the centre of the matter, which is the person that the - which is the person that the allegation— which is the person that the allegation has— which is the person that the allegation has been- which is the person that the allegation has been made . which is the person that the - allegation has been made against, which _ allegation has been made against, which is _ allegation has been made against, which is what _ allegation has been made against, which is what acas _ allegation has been made against, which is what acas recommends. i allegation has been made against, . which is what acas recommends. you interview— which is what acas recommends. you ihterview as _ which is what acas recommends. you interview as few— which is what acas recommends. you interview as few people _ which is what acas recommends. you interview as few people as _ which is what acas recommends. you interview as few people as possible, i interview as few people as possible, you protect — interview as few people as possible, you protect the _ interview as few people as possible, you protect the individual— interview as few people as possible, you protect the individual and - interview as few people as possible, you protect the individual and you i you protect the individual and you put out _ you protect the individual and you put out on — you protect the individual and you put out on the _ you protect the individual and you put out on the statement - you protect the individual and you put out on the statement when i put out on the statement when necessary _ put out on the statement when necessary. otherwise - put out on the statement when necessary. otherwise you - put out on the statement when necessary. otherwise you say. necessary. otherwise you say nothing _ necessary. otherwise you say nothing why— necessary. otherwise you say nothing. why feel— necessary. otherwise you say nothing. why feel the - necessary. otherwise you say nothing. why feel the need . necessary. otherwise you say| nothing. why feel the need to necessary. otherwise you say- nothing. why feel the need to defend until you _ nothing. why feel the need to defend until you know— nothing. why feel the need to defend until you know what _ nothing. why feel the need to defend until you know what the _ nothing. why feel the need to defend until you know what the situation - until you know what the situation is? and _ until you know what the situation is? and yes. _ until you know what the situation is? and yes. if— until you know what the situation is? and yes, if you _ until you know what the situation is? and yes, if you think- until you know what the situation is? and yes, if you think there i until you know what the situation. is? and yes, if you think there has been _ is? and yes, if you think there has been an— is? and yes, if you think there has been an issue _ is? and yes, if you think there has been an issue that _ is? and yes, if you think there has been an issue that should - is? and yes, if you think there has

been an issue that should be - been an issue that should be investigated _ been an issue that should be investigated by— been an issue that should be investigated by the - been an issue that should be investigated by the police, . been an issue that should be l investigated by the police, you been an issue that should be - investigated by the police, you hand over that _ investigated by the police, you hand over that information. _ investigated by the police, you hand over that information. but _ investigated by the police, you hand over that information. but until- over that information. but until that point. _ over that information. but until that point, no, _ over that information. but until that point, no, nothing- over that information. but untili that point, no, nothing further, nothing — that point, no, nothing further, nothing further— that point, no, nothing further, nothing further should - that point, no, nothing further, nothing further should be - that point, no, nothing further, - nothing further should be happening. i feel nothing further should be happening. i feel for— nothing further should be happening. i feel for the — nothing further should be happening. i feel for the people _ nothing further should be happening. i feel for the people who _ nothing further should be happening. i feel for the people who have - nothing further should be happening. i feel for the people who have now. i feel for the people who have now had to— i feel for the people who have now had to put— i feel for the people who have now had to put out _ i feel for the people who have now had to put out statements. - i feel for the people who have now had to put out statements. we - i feel for the people who have now. had to put out statements. we know who they _ had to put out statements. we know who they are, — had to put out statements. we know who theyare. i— had to put out statements. we know who they are, i am _ had to put out statements. we know who they are, i am not— had to put out statements. we know who they are, i am not going - had to put out statements. we know who they are, i am not going to- who they are, i am not going to ntention— who they are, i am not going to mention their— who they are, i am not going to mention their names _ who they are, i am not going to mention their names because l who they are, i am not going to. mention their names because we who they are, i am not going to- mention their names because we are not mentioning — mention their names because we are not mentioning names, _ mention their names because we are not mentioning names, because - mention their names because we are not mentioning names, because it. mention their names because we are not mentioning names, because it is| not mentioning names, because it is ludicrous _ not mentioning names, because it is ludicrous that — not mentioning names, because it is ludicrous that people _ not mentioning names, because it is ludicrous that people should - not mentioning names, because it is ludicrous that people should have i not mentioning names, because it is ludicrous that people should have toi ludicrous that people should have to do that _ ludicrous that people should have to do that in— ludicrous that people should have to do that in this— ludicrous that people should have to do that. in this day _ ludicrous that people should have to do that. in this day and _ ludicrous that people should have to do that. in this day and age, - ludicrous that people should have to do that. in this day and age, it - ludicrous that people should have to do that. in this day and age, it is- do that. in this day and age, it is ludicrous — do that. in this day and age, it is ludicrous. , ., do that. in this day and age, it is ludicrous— do that. in this day and age, it is ludicrous. , . ., . ludicrous. lynn, and the other lane as well, ludicrous. lynn, and the other lane as well. two _ ludicrous. lynn, and the other lane as well, two wise _ ludicrous. lynn, and the other lane as well, two wise and _ ludicrous. lynn, and the other lane | as well, two wise and contributions, feel free to get in touch. the bbc presenter, your reaction. lynn is in the boardroom today, obviously lots of panicky meetings going on. stuart purvis, as a broadcaster, a very

important head of a broadcasting organisation for many years, if you were in that meeting today, what would you be saying, that bbc meeting? i would you be saying, that bbc meetin: ? ., . ., , meeting? i would want to see the timeline of— meeting? i would want to see the timeline of really _ meeting? i would want to see the timeline of really detailed - meeting? i would want to see the | timeline of really detailed timeline of what _ timeline of really detailed timeline of what new water in the organisation and what action was taking _ organisation and what action was taking. you cannot go any further in these _ taking. you cannot go any further in these discussions and investigation to until— these discussions and investigation to until you establish those basic facts _ to until you establish those basic facts. then you want to hear from the people — facts. then you want to hear from the people who made judgments along the people who made judgments along the timeline about how the process should _ the timeline about how the process should proceed from then on. you are constantly— should proceed from then on. you are constantly thinking about communicating and i thought, i agreed — communicating and i thought, i agreed with lynn that you say nothing _ agreed with lynn that you say nothing. but to be honest, once the story— nothing. but to be honest, once the story appeared in the sun newspaper, the bbc_ story appeared in the sun newspaper, the bbc had to say something. i think— the bbc had to say something. i think with — the bbc had to say something. i think with hindsight they should have said an allegation has been nrade _ have said an allegation has been nrade and — have said an allegation has been made and we are investigating it and the presenter has been suspended. that is— the presenter has been suspended. that is all— the presenter has been suspended. that is all they needed to say. they

didn't— that is all they needed to say. they didn't go— that is all they needed to say. they didn't go for the simple formula, they went — didn't go for the simple formula, they went for something rather more complicated. that might be the particular— complicated. that might be the particular problem they have at the moment _ particular problem they have at the moment. there is so much yet to play out. moment. there is so much yet to play out on— moment. there is so much yet to play out on the _ moment. there is so much yet to play out. on the issue of working with the police. — out. on the issue of working with the police, i have done that a number— the police, i have done that a number of— the police, i have done that a number of times as working as a regulator— number of times as working as a regulator and working in broadcasting, it is not as simple as it might _ broadcasting, it is not as simple as it might sound. the police will ask you how— it might sound. the police will ask you how far— it might sound. the police will ask you how far your own investigations have got, _ you how far your own investigations have got, because they will be concerned about the potential of both they and you talking to the same _ both they and you talking to the same witnesses. so that partly explains — same witnesses. so that partly explains yesterday's statement from scotland _ explains yesterday's statement from scotland yard which sounded like, we are waiting _ scotland yard which sounded like, we are waiting to hear more. that is understandable caution that the processes have to be aligned in some way. processes have to be aligned in some way but— processes have to be aligned in some way but i_ processes have to be aligned in some way. but i think the other thing we haven't— way. but i think the other thing we haven't mentioned here is the fact that presumably one day the name will come — that presumably one day the name will come out and so much will depend — will come out and so much will depend on _ will come out and so much will depend on the kind of person it is, what _ depend on the kind of person it is, what part— depend on the kind of person it is, what part of— depend on the kind of person it is, what part of the bbc they work in,

how famous they are, and that is a moment— how famous they are, and that is a moment yet— how famous they are, and that is a moment yet to come and who knows when _ moment yet to come and who knows when and _ moment yet to come and who knows when and potentially if that happens, that is such a large part of this— happens, that is such a large part of this story that we don't know. so of this story that we don't know. sc many of this story that we don't know. for many questions to of this story that we don't know. sr many questions to be asked about the bbc to the bbc. also about the allegations and the timeline. katie, i will come to you about the timeline in a second to just remind us of the chronology. we have a text, and as an hr director, ifind your coverage of the present case frustrating. if these alleged activities took place outside of work, then there is very little in employment law that the bbc can do. people are entitled to have private lives, no matter how allegedly distasteful. if none of this took place on work time, the best the bbc could do is to dismiss the person for bringing the organisation into

disrepute. if illegal activity took place, that would warrant a dismissal if a conviction follows. but a police led legal process will take months. from what i see, i think the bbc are managing this in a proportionate and considerate way and then use teams need to back off until the facts are clear. it looks like the sun newspaper are playing the bbc, alternating between grabbing the headlines and drip feeding information to the corporation at their own pace to maximise coverage and exposure. that is from matthew. katie, this comes into what i'm asking you about, the timeline, everything seemed to change last thursday, in terms of the gravity of the allegations and what the bbc, how the bbc reacted to them. could you say, as they say in them. could you say, as they say in the business, take it from the top?

i will take it from the top and i hope i get it right. what we know is that the family contacted the bbc on may the 19th this year, so, nearly two months ago. we don't know who they contacted, we don't know what happened apart from they told the sun that originally someone gave them a number that didn't work. they also have said that they don't believe that anything happened and they were so frustrated by still seeing this presenter on air that they went to the sun newspaper and told them what had happened and said we don't want payment, they wanted that to be made clear, wejust we don't want payment, they wanted that to be made clear, we just want this to stop happening and we want your help because the bbc is not doing anything. and the bbc's recollection of events is quite different. they say they have rigorous processes in place, they follow those procedures, they attempted to contact the family, and there is a suggestion that that was hampered by not being able to get through. 50, then, cut to last

thursday when the sun contacted them with these, let's face it, bombshell allegations, which led to, clearly, allegations, which led to, clearly, a lot of meetings, clearly, a lot of behind the scenes conversation, but we don't know what the upshot of that was, other than to say, to be told, on friday, when the story broke, that the presenter was not due on air in the coming days, and then clearly, over the weekend, things shifted, we got this more fulsome statement which seemed to make clear that new allegations, of a different nature, had only been told to the bbc on thursday, and that the presenter was now being suspended and the police had been informed. so, that is the timeline but it does obviously leave a lot of questions and i take on board the person who texted saying, news should back off but clearly it is

ourjob should back off but clearly it is our job to should back off but clearly it is ourjob to interrogate this story just like any other story that i cover whether it is the bbc or outside the bbc, it isjust unfortunate i seem to be doing quite a few bbc stories at the moment, or have done over the last few months, but clearly there are questions because if there is a gap between what the family say happened and what the family say happened and what the family say happened and what the bbc say happened under what are the answers to it? what did the bbc do when faced with that original complaint? how many people knew about it? really tim davie appears happy to let it be known that he didn't know about this until thursday, but who did know, and what was done, what action was taken. also, how many attempts were made to contact family through that period, because the family are saying that what they have said recently in the paper is that they were not given a proper interview after their initial complaint we think that the bbc and the family have now spoken because tim davie said that in his e—mail to

staff yesterday, but there are a lot of questions, and you can't really judge how the bbc has acted whether it has acted properly and whether it has been evasive or less than transparent unless you know the full facts and clearly a lot of these facts and clearly a lot of these facts are not in the public domain. thank you very much indeed, katie razzall, bbc media editor. let me give you another couple of texts before we go into the news and sport. and come up for a bit of air. ian from sport. and come up for a bit of air. ianfrom edinburgh... i sport. and come up for a bit of air. ian from edinburgh... i am sick of sad keyboard warriors that feel they can say anything about anyone with impunity, it is about time that laws were past with harsh penalties. we will focus more on the social media aspects of this after ten o'clock. let's look at the bbc more between now and then. this one... is it not the case that in not naming a suspect, by a process of deduction, is in legal terms effectively naming the suspect? that is from jim in

hertfordshire. and this one... of the bbc are so sanctimonious about the bbc are so sanctimonious about the government and everyone else, it is one brushed off scandal after another. and this, hi, nikki, my thoughts are with the alleged victim's family but as parents of a seven to build my first reaction to this in similar circumstances would be to call the police, not to contact person's employer, this makes no sense, if you think a crime has been committed, you pull the police. not the sun, that is from rachel in kent. good to know that you are there this morning, thank you are there this morning, thank you forjoining us, bbc presenter, your reaction, more to come. and here is the news from nick

hatfield. thank you, nicky, good morning. thejustice secretary, alex chalk, says there needs to be a "careful review" about who knew what when following allegations a bbc presenter paid a teenager for explicit photos. the bbc says it's "working as quickly as possible to establish the facts". president biden is in the uk for talks with both rishi sunak and the king. mr sunak and mr biden are expected to discuss various issues including the war in ukraine. a new approach to rape and sexual assault investigations will from this week be used by all police forces in england and wales. the focus will now be on the behaviour of the accused rather than the alleged victim. shareholders in thames water have agreed to invest an extra £750 million in the firm. the company has faced criticism over sewage leaks and is believed to have debts of nearly £14 billion. john bennett has the sport. england's harry brook says their three—wicket win over australia in the third test sets up the rest of the ashes series. brook hit a superb 75 in the second innings,

which proved crucial in their run chase. no england team has ever come back from 2—0 down to win the ashes but it's nowjust 2—1 to australia with three tests left to play. meanwhile in the women's ashes, tammy beaumont and lauren filer have returned to the england squad for the one—day internationals which begin on wednesday. australia are leading 6—4 in the points—based multi—fomat series. at wimbledon, defending champion novak djokovic will return to centre court this afternoon after his match against hubert hurkacz was suspended late last night. djokovic leads by two sets to love. iga swiatek is already through to the last eight but had to save two match points to beat belinda bencic. and lee carsley is set for talks with the football association about his future after leading england uzis to european championship success. say play bbc news to most smart speakers and you will get the latest

headlines and in—depth reports on international, national and local stories that matter to you. so, more coming up on the bbc presenter story, your reaction to it. this very, very serious story, big problem for the bbc. and then at ten o'clock, lots of people are actually talking about this anyway, it has its own impetus, this, but i felt, earlier on, it is not about me, but i did feel it was important to take a stand against some of the wild speculation on social media saying, it's you. social media, it

can be, we were discussing this the other day, a wonderful, wonderful thing, and on this programme last week we were talking about the new platform threads. it connects us, it gives us information, it is a wonderful way to talk to people, have conversations with people, and share things. but it can be a source of abuse and this information. now, people just don't realise, you can't say that stuff about people. you're breaking the law. now, i am in a fortunate situation, likewise rylan, likewise jeremy, fortunate situation, likewise rylan, likewisejeremy, likewise gary, and jon kay, i have got the wherewithal to be able to do something about it. but there are many people who do not and have to suffer and bear it. and it can be devastating. there have been for a long time because to have

social media relegated... located! maybe not! well, that would be in a completely different league! regulated. now, naturally, doing what i do and working where i work, i am a staunch advocate of freedom of speech, but then there is this, this crosses the line and breaks the law. so, what needs to change, without limiting freedom of speech, without limiting freedom of speech, without stifling innovation? we will focus on that at ten o'clock, trial by social media. so, that is coming up by social media. so, that is coming up later. right, it is 9.39, stewart purvis is

still with us and it is in the isle of bute. and connor chapman is an hr advisor on workplace culture, and conal is in burton on trent. chapman, are you there? i conal is in burton on trent. chapman, are you there? i am come on morninr. chapman, are you there? i am come on morning. workplace _ chapman, are you there? i am come on morning. workplace culture _ chapman, are you there? i am come on morning. workplace culture and - morning. workplace culture and complaints and people who do terrible things, and how it should be dealt with. what do you think about what the bbc seems to be doing so far, how the bbc have, ostensibly, and there is loads going on under the bonnet here, we know that, but what do you think about what you are seeing and hearing? ibis what you are seeing and hearing? as you would imagine, the first thing i would _ you would imagine, the first thing i would say— you would imagine, the first thing i would say is it is difficult to comment without all of those facts because _ comment without all of those facts because what you would do if you are in the _ because what you would do if you are in the bbc_ because what you would do if you are in the bbc hr department which i am sure they— in the bbc hr department which i am sure they are trying to do very well is to try— sure they are trying to do very well is to try and — sure they are trying to do very well is to try and be as balanced and impartial— is to try and be as balanced and impartial as you can while you investigate. so, at the moment what

they will— investigate. so, at the moment what they will be _ investigate. so, at the moment what they will be trying to do is to establish all the facts before they make _ establish all the facts before they make any— establish all the facts before they make any sort ofjudgements. i think the only— make any sort ofjudgements. i think the only thing that i will probably comment— the only thing that i will probably comment on, and this is a general point _ comment on, and this is a general point but — comment on, and this is a general point but it— comment on, and this is a general point but it looks to apply here, is that if— point but it looks to apply here, is that if something is going is going to be _ that if something is going is going to be significant enough as a workplace incident that you might lose your — workplace incident that you might lose yourjob, the individual should be suspended as soon as possible, because _ be suspended as soon as possible, because otherwise it makes it very difficult _ because otherwise it makes it very difficult to — because otherwise it makes it very difficult to argue later on that actually— difficult to argue later on that actually was that serious. and i think— actually was that serious. and i think they— actually was that serious. and i think they have moved to do that now, _ think they have moved to do that now. but— think they have moved to do that now, but that is the only thing that it is probably worth bearing in mind, — it is probably worth bearing in mind, that that should be done as soon _ mind, that that should be done as soon as— mind, that that should be done as soon as possible, notjust mind, that that should be done as soon as possible, not just to protect _ soon as possible, not 'ust to protect. . .* soon as possible, not 'ust to rotect... ., , protect... lose your 'ob, or be suspended. h protect... lose yourjob, or be suspended, perhaps? - protect... lose yourjob, or be suspended, perhaps? be - protect... lose yourjob, or be - suspended, perhaps? be suspended, eah. the suspended, perhaps? be suspended, yeah- the idea _ suspended, perhaps? be suspended, yeah. the idea in _ suspended, perhaps? be suspended, yeah. the idea in employment- suspended, perhaps? be suspended, yeah. the idea in employment law i suspended, perhaps? be suspended,| yeah. the idea in employment law is, in order— yeah. the idea in employment law is, in order to _ yeah. the idea in employment law is, in order to do — yeah. the idea in employment law is, in order to do a proper investigation, if it is a really significant issue, you should take the person— significant issue, you should take the person out of the business but to protect — the person out of the business but to protect them. normally you suspend — to protect them. normally you suspend them on full pay, it is

pending — suspend them on full pay, it is pending anyjudgements, and i have been involved in cases where somebody has been suspended and come back because it was found, when you did a balanced and very, very thorough _ did a balanced and very, very thorough investigation, that actually— thorough investigation, that actually it wasn't as significant as it seemed — actually it wasn't as significant as it seemed. or if the person is suspended and they subsequently go through— suspended and they subsequently go through a _ suspended and they subsequently go through a disciplinary procedure and they lose _ through a disciplinary procedure and they lose theirjob, it was always better— they lose theirjob, it was always better that they weren't in the business — better that they weren't in the business when you were investigating it. it business when you were investigating it it is _ business when you were investigating it. it is really difficult to investigate something properly when a person— investigate something properly when a person is— investigate something properly when a person is there. but you have also -ot a person is there. but you have also got a _ a person is there. but you have also got a duty— a person is there. but you have also got a duty of— a person is there. but you have also got a duty of care to that individual, nicky, they are your employee, and whilst you have to take any— employee, and whilst you have to take any allegation really seriously, you have also got to protect — seriously, you have also got to protect them, and not having them in the business — protect them, and not having them in the business is usually the best way to do— the business is usually the best way to do that — the business is usually the best way to do that. ~ ., , , ., to do that. would it be better to have an investigation _ to do that. would it be better to have an investigation like - have an investigation like this conducted by an external body, chapman?— conducted by an external body, chaman? . , ., , conducted by an external body, chaman? ., , ., , ., chapman? that is an interesting one, but ou're chapman? that is an interesting one, but you're right _ chapman? that is an interesting one, but you're right in _ chapman? that is an interesting one, but you're right in the _ chapman? that is an interesting one, but you're right in the principle - but you're right in the principle here, _ but you're right in the principle here, which is, you never have the

same _ here, which is, you never have the same person— here, which is, you never have the same person investigating an employment issue and them making a judgment _ employment issue and them making a judgment. so, somebody separate in the bbc_ judgment. so, somebody separate in the bbc will currently be investigating this and somebody else will hear— investigating this and somebody else will hear it, in a disciplinary meeting _ will hear it, in a disciplinary meeting. so, the two should always be kept _ meeting. so, the two should always be kept separate. i think it's a be kept separate. ! think it's a really— be kept separate. i think it's a really interesting point about should — really interesting point about should somebody absolutely not involved — should somebody absolutely not involved at all do it? because you're — involved at all do it? because you're right, there is a sort of recurring _ you're right, there is a sort of recurring theme that this seems to be happening and i think that is why people _ be happening and i think that is why people are — be happening and i think that is why people are getting excited about it, that independence could take that challenge away. but equally i think we have _ challenge away. but equally i think we have got to be really careful because — we have got to be really careful because it's really easy to judge all of— because it's really easy to judge all of this— because it's really easy to judge all of this based on what we are reading — all of this based on what we are reading on— all of this based on what we are reading on social media, and we are reading _ reading on social media, and we are reading that — reading on social media, and we are reading that there has been a lapse in policy— reading that there has been a lapse in policy and in the media we have -ot in policy and in the media we have got to— in policy and in the media we have got to be — in policy and in the media we have got to be really careful about saying — got to be really careful about saying that that did actually happen. it could be that the hr team

are dealing _ happen. it could be that the hr team are dealing with this really difficult situation as well as they possibly— difficult situation as well as they possibly could. we don't know that because _ possibly could. we don't know that because we don't have all the facts. and tim _ because we don't have all the facts. and tim davie spoke to the culture secretary yesterday to assuage her and to put it on the line that this is all being done properly now and with care, but with urgency. and obviously sensitivity as well. given all the factors involved. how long do these investigations take? you don't want to rush them, do you, but it is an insatiable appetite for answers from the media, we're as much to blame for that as anyone else? it much to blame for that as anyone else? . much to blame for that as anyone else? , ,., ., . much to blame for that as anyone else? , ., . ., ., , �* else? it is the balance again, isn't it? you've — else? it is the balance again, isn't it? you've got _ else? it is the balance again, isn't it? you've got to _ else? it is the balance again, isn't it? you've got to make _ else? it is the balance again, isn't it? you've got to make sure - else? it is the balance again, isn't it? you've got to make sure in - else? it is the balance again, isn't it? you've got to make sure in a l it? you've got to make sure in a situation — it? you've got to make sure in a situation like this that it is thorough, adversely to make sure that you _ thorough, adversely to make sure that you are being absolutely fair to the _ that you are being absolutely fair to the employee concerned but also to the employee concerned but also to make _ to the employee concerned but also to make sure that if it is not an isolated — to make sure that if it is not an isolated incident you get a chance to get _ isolated incident you get a chance to get to — isolated incident you get a chance to get to the bottom of it. but equally— to get to the bottom of it. but equally time is of the essence. sol really— equally time is of the essence. sol really feel— equally time is of the essence. sol

really feel for the people that are doing _ really feel for the people that are doing this, because they are doing it with _ doing this, because they are doing it with this— doing this, because they are doing it with this additional pressure, and believe me when i have done investigations like this they are hard _ investigations like this they are hard enough without the additional pressure _ hard enough without the additional pressure of being scrutinised by people — pressure of being scrutinised by people who actually don't have the expertise — people who actually don't have the expertise to scrutinise it, to be frank — expertise to scrutinise it, to be frank so— expertise to scrutinise it, to be frank so i_ expertise to scrutinise it, to be frank. so i think it is about finding _ frank. so i think it is about finding that balance. they will be doing _ finding that balance. they will be doing very little else, the world stopped — doing very little else, the world stopped turning for you when you are investigating these situations, they take up— investigating these situations, they take up literally all of your time. they— take up literally all of your time. they will— take up literally all of your time. they will probably be working 12 hour days — they will probably be working 12 hour days to kind of get through it. so it is— hour days to kind of get through it. so it is that — hour days to kind of get through it. so it is that balance. but i have had investigations that have taken a couple _ had investigations that have taken a couple of— had investigations that have taken a couple of weeks because they have been pretty cut and dried, and that is good _ been pretty cut and dried, and that is good for— been pretty cut and dried, and that is good for everybody concerned. but i is good for everybody concerned. but i have _ is good for everybody concerned. but i have had _ is good for everybody concerned. but i have had some that have taken months — i have had some that have taken months because you uncover something else and _ months because you uncover something else and then you have that got to investigate that properly or sometimes you get two versions of the truth, — sometimes you get two versions of the truth, and in employment law, you have _ the truth, and in employment law, you have just got to consider both properly. — you have just got to consider both properly. it— you have just got to consider both properly, it is not about necessarily getting to the truth, because — necessarily getting to the truth, because you might not be able to, but it—

because you might not be able to, but it is— because you might not be able to, but it is about a reasonable employer acting in but it is about a reasonable employeracting in a but it is about a reasonable employer acting in a way that says, on balance, — employer acting in a way that says, on balance, i think it is this and not this — on balance, i think it is this and not this so. _ on balance, i think it is this and not this. so, it's really complicated. | not this. so, it's really complicated.— not this. so, it's really complicated. not this. so, it's really comlicated. ., ., ., complicated. i will come to conal in a second. complicated. i will come to conal in a second- i — complicated. i will come to conal in a second. i want _ complicated. i will come to conal in a second. i want to _ complicated. i will come to conal in a second. i want to ask _ complicated. i will come to conal in a second. i want to ask stewart - a second. i want to ask stewart purvis something else, then i will be right with you. stewart purvis, former ceo could have of itn, being director—general of the bbc, it is well remunerated, let's not get the violins out, but it is kind of like being prime minister, it is coming at you from every direction, and thenit at you from every direction, and then it comes at you from behind, and you are kind of bombarded and there is so much plate spinning involved, it takes a certain talent to do thatjob, doesn't it? it absolutely does. and the range of the bbc's output, the range of the audiences who consume, variety from being where you are now nicky on radio and on television to a small, local radio station. and i knew

people at the top of the bbc who said it was sometimes what worried them most was what was being set on a small local radio station in the middle of the night as much as what was out on mainstream television because they are equally responsible for it. i do think there were some really wise words from chapman, and obviously based on experience on a couple of the points, as to when to suspend somebody... —— dulcie. if the bbc really did not know about this until as recently as they say, if it was just a message, and they were unable to contact the person, i have to ask what it have been right to suspend the person at that point? so you have got to calibrate what is the nature of the complaint, before we make those kind of decisions, because we have seen cases, we talked about the stuart halls and

the saviles, but the moment you suspend somebody, you are not starting the process inevitably until the end of it, but it is a pretty big step to suspend somebody. conal, thank you for getting in touch, what would you like to tell us? ., . , touch, what would you like to tell us? ., ., , ., ., ., us? hello, landry, thanks for having me on. us? hello, landry, thanks for having me on- for— us? hello, landry, thanks for having me on- for me _ us? hello, landry, thanks for having me on. for me it— us? hello, landry, thanks for having me on. for me it was _ us? hello, landry, thanks for having me on. for me it was all— us? hello, landry, thanks for having me on. for me it was all about - us? hello, landry, thanks for havingj me on. for me it was all about being accused _ me on. for me it was all about being accused of— me on. for me it was all about being accused of something i didn't do and 'ust accused of something i didn't do and just the _ accused of something i didn't do and just the appetite for the story from the local— just the appetite for the story from the local press how itjust snowballed around my local area. just on _ snowballed around my local area. just on a — snowballed around my local area. just on a local level, but needless to say. _ just on a local level, but needless to say. it — just on a local level, but needless to say, it was extremely stressful and extremely embarrassing. tell us and extremely embarrassing. tell us a little bit more _ and extremely embarrassing. tell us a little bit more and _ and extremely embarrassing. tell us a little bit more and tell— and extremely embarrassing. tell us a little bit more and tell us - and extremely embarrassing. tell us a little bit more and tell us about. a little bit more and tell us about the effect on your mental health, what you went throughout the time? it was just a ridiculous scenario around a car parking space went

wrong and a shouting match ensued. easily done! easily done. and a couple — easily done! easily done. and a couple of— easily done! easily done. and a couple of days later, the police and had my— couple of days later, the police and had my place of work and arrested me and marched _ had my place of work and arrested me and marched me off to the station, locked _ and marched me off to the station, locked me — and marched me off to the station, locked me up and subsequently interviewed me and accused me of striking _ interviewed me and accused me of striking this lady, putting my hands around _ striking this lady, putting my hands around her— striking this lady, putting my hands around her throat and striking her. and when— around her throat and striking her. and when i— around her throat and striking her. and when i said, thatjust never happened. _ and when i said, thatjust never happened, they said, how do you account— happened, they said, how do you account for— happened, they said, how do you account for these marks on her neck and her— account for these marks on her neck and her face? account for these marks on her neck and herface? i said, well, i've no idea, _ and herface? i said, well, i've no idea. it _ and herface? i said, well, i've no idea. it is — and herface? i said, well, i've no idea, it is nothing that i have done. — idea, it is nothing that i have done. i— idea, it is nothing that i have done, i nevertouched idea, it is nothing that i have done, i never touched the lady. but ultimately— done, i never touched the lady. but ultimately i — done, i never touched the lady. but ultimately i ended up in court answering the charges, pending a later court— answering the charges, pending a later court date and it was taken on by the _ later court date and it was taken on by the campus, and reported in the local press — by the campus, and reported in the local press. and of course, itjust went~~~ _ local press. and of course, itjust went~~~ not — local press. and of course, itjust went... not viable but it went big in my— went... not viable but it went big in my local— went... not viable but it went big in my local area. went... not viable but it went big in my localarea. i went... not viable but it went big in my local area. i am a hairdresser in my local area. i am a hairdresser

inthe— in my local area. i am a hairdresser inthe area. — in my local area. i am a hairdresser in the area, have been for the last 30-odd _ in the area, have been for the last 30—odd years, and to be accused of striking _ 30—odd years, and to be accused of striking a _ 30—odd years, and to be accused of striking a lady was just very, very detrimental. and it went on quite a few weeks— detrimental. and it went on quite a few weeks because it takes quite a lon- few weeks because it takes quite a long time — few weeks because it takes quite a long time for the cases and on the date of— long time for the cases and on the date of the — long time for the cases and on the date of the court hearing, i have -ot date of the court hearing, i have got a _ date of the court hearing, i have got a lawyer involved on the date hearing. — got a lawyer involved on the date hearing. to — got a lawyer involved on the date hearing, to three hours before i was due in— hearing, to three hours before i was due in got— hearing, to three hours before i was due in got thrown out of court when the ground — due in got thrown out of court when the ground actually looked at it and said, _ the ground actually looked at it and said. this _ the ground actually looked at it and said. this is — the ground actually looked at it and said, this isjust ridiculous, there are just _ said, this isjust ridiculous, there are just so — said, this isjust ridiculous, there are just so many conflicting reports from _ are just so many conflicting reports from lady— are just so many conflicting reports from lady and her that actually made the claim. _ from lady and her that actually made the claim, and theyjust branded them _ the claim, and theyjust branded them as— the claim, and theyjust branded them as liars and threw it out, but not before — them as liars and threw it out, but not before all of this had come out, and i_ not before all of this had come out, and i never— not before all of this had come out, and i never had an apology for it, sow _ and i never had an apology for it, sow and — and i never had an apology for it, so... and that is how itjust affected _ so... and that is how itjust affected me obviously during that time, _ affected me obviously during that time. but — affected me obviously during that time, but it wasjust affected me obviously during that time, but it was just the appetite for the _ time, but it was just the appetite for the story and the gossip that really— for the story and the gossip that

really got — for the story and the gossip that really got to me. and this is the first time — really got to me. and this is the first time i— really got to me. and this is the first time i really have been able to get— first time i really have been able to get out— first time i really have been able to get out and actually say, it was all lies. _ to get out and actually say, it was all lies. and — to get out and actually say, it was all lies, and it transpires that the people _ all lies, and it transpires that the people had tried it before, but it is basically the appetite for the gossip — is basically the appetite for the gossip and not having any concern for the _ gossip and not having any concern for the person that is accused at all. ., , for the person that is accused at all. . , ., ., ., , all. ultimately, exoneration, but ou must all. ultimately, exoneration, but you must see — all. ultimately, exoneration, but you must see cases _ all. ultimately, exoneration, but you must see cases like - all. ultimately, exoneration, but you must see cases like this, - all. ultimately, exoneration, but. you must see cases like this, cases you must see cases like this, cases you see in the paper, where the media goes, you know, full on for something, given your experience, you must see it all with a different perspective? you must see it all with a different perspective?_ you must see it all with a different perspective? well, exactly because it all happened _ perspective? well, exactly because it all happened around _ perspective? well, exactly because it all happened around the - perspective? well, exactly because it all happened around the same, l it all happened around the same, 'ust it all happened around the same, just before, what happened to cliff richard _ just before, what happened to cliff richard. and when that all came out i felt richard. and when that all came out i felt so _ richard. and when that all came out i felt so sorry for him because he wasjust— i felt so sorry for him because he wasjust er~~~ _ i felt so sorry for him because he wasjust er... he was guilty straightaway, wasn't he, because the press _ straightaway, wasn't he, because the pressiust_ straightaway, wasn't he, because the pressjust er... the straightaway, wasn't he, because the pressiust erm—

press 'ust er... the bbc, frankly, did pressjust er... the bbc, frankly, did not cover _ pressjust er... the bbc, frankly, did not cover itself _ pressjust er... the bbc, frankly, did not cover itself in _ pressjust er... the bbc, frankly, did not cover itself in glory. - pressjust er... the bbc, frankly, did not cover itself in glory. andl did not cover itself in glory. and he was paid out. he got money in court. i he was paid out. he got money in court. ., ., , he was paid out. he got money in court. ., , ., ., court. i was actually encouraged not to ursue court. i was actually encouraged not to pursue it — court. i was actually encouraged not to pursue it any _ court. i was actually encouraged not to pursue it any further, _ court. i was actually encouraged not to pursue it any further, i _ court. i was actually encouraged not to pursue it any further, i didn't - to pursue it any further, i didn't io to pursue it any further, ididn't go for— to pursue it any further, i didn't go for any. _ to pursue it any further, i didn't go for any. i_ to pursue it any further, i didn't go for any, i don't know what you call it. _ go for any, i don't know what you call it. but— go for any, i don't know what you call it, but to go for the people that accused me, and it was a number of years— that accused me, and it was a number of years ago— that accused me, and it was a number of years ago now, but at the time, it was— of years ago now, but at the time, it was very. — of years ago now, but at the time, it was very, very stressful. i'm just— it was very, very stressful. i'm just glad — it was very, very stressful. i'm just glad that it was all over, and it was— just glad that it was all over, and it was a _ just glad that it was all over, and it was a great feeling to have them to be _ it was a great feeling to have them to be branded as liars, and i was agglomerated, but not to have anything — agglomerated, but not to have anything in the press, press didn't make _ anything in the press, press didn't make a _ anything in the press, press didn't make a point of it, to say this man has been _ make a point of it, to say this man has been wrongly accused. that make a point of it, to say this man has been wrongly accused.- has been wrongly accused. that is it, that is has been wrongly accused. that is it. that is a _ has been wrongly accused. that is it, that is a really _ has been wrongly accused. that is it, that is a really good _ has been wrongly accused. that is it, that is a really good point. - it, that is a really good point. paul kilometres a media lawyer, perfectly teed up. hello, paul. hello, melandri. there have been some egregious examples of that kind

of trial by media, people turning out to have been completely innocent, and what a great case study from conal there, a classic? yeah, that is, he speaks a lot of, he describes— yeah, that is, he speaks a lot of, he describes an experience that a lot of— he describes an experience that a lot of people have, and i have certainly— lot of people have, and i have certainly represented people over the years. — certainly represented people over the years, i recall one case way back— the years, i recall one case way back where, and this was again, it -ot back where, and this was again, it got international news, but he lived in a small— got international news, but he lived in a small village in kent, it was all over— in a small village in kent, it was all over the _ in a small village in kent, it was all over the local rag that he had been _ all over the local rag that he had been accused of fraud, when he was acquitted _ been accused of fraud, when he was acquitted six weeks later, nothing. and so. _ acquitted six weeks later, nothing. and so, anyone in that village, as far as _ and so, anyone in that village, as far as they— and so, anyone in that village, as far as they were concerned, they had a fraudster— far as they were concerned, they had a fraudster living amongst them, when _ a fraudster living amongst them, when in — a fraudster living amongst them, when in fact he had been found to be innocent _ when in fact he had been found to be innocent after a long court hearing. it innocent after a long court hearing. it doesn't _ innocent after a long court hearing. it doesn't make news to report that someone _ it doesn't make news to report that someone is — it doesn't make news to report that someone is acquitted, and afraid. let me _ someone is acquitted, and afraid. let me get— someone is acquitted, and afraid.

let me get your reaction to brian anne lister. good morning, welcome. i think i have got the just of what you are going to say, you go. so. you are going to say, you go. so, reall , i you are going to say, you go. so, really. i think— you are going to say, you go. so, really, i think it _ you are going to say, you go. sn, really, i think it should be a bit more transparency from the bbc with this. the bbc is publicly funded, so we are all contributing to the salary which i assume is quite handsome for this person. we are also going to be paying for the investigation, ijust also going to be paying for the investigation, i just think transparency would help stop a lot of this speculation and people will know where we are. what of this speculation and people will know where we are.— of this speculation and people will know where we are. what do you mean by transparency? _ know where we are. what do you mean by transparency? be — know where we are. what do you mean by transparency? be open _ know where we are. what do you mean by transparency? be open and - know where we are. what do you mean by transparency? be open and honest, | by transparency? be open and honest, tell us what is — by transparency? be open and honest, tell us what is going _ by transparency? be open and honest, tell us what is going on. _ by transparency? be open and honest, tell us what is going on. be _ by transparency? be open and honest, tell us what is going on. be honest - tell us what is going on. be honest about the person, and it stops all this speculation about innocent people being named all over social media. �* ., , ., media. being honest about the person- -- _ media. being honest about the person... yeah, _ media. being honest about the person... yeah, the _ media. being honest about the person... yeah, the whole - media. being honest about the - person... yeah, the whole situation. i mean person... yeah, the whole situation. i mean they — person... yeah, the whole situation. i mean they have _ person... yeah, the whole situation. i mean they have had _ person... yeah, the whole situation. i mean they have had this _ person... yeah, the whole situation. i mean they have had this complaint| i mean they have had this complaint since may, we are now injuly, what has happened since may, since the

complaint was made? where were we up to? be open and honest and tell people what is going on. you want the person — people what is going on. you want the person named? _ people what is going on. you want the person named? i _ people what is going on. you want the person named? ithink- people what is going on. you want the person named? i think so, - the person named? i think so, because. _ the person named? i think so, because. yes. _ the person named? ! think so, because, yes, it— the person named? ! think so, because, yes, it will— the person named? i think so, because, yes, it will be - the person named? i think so, - because, yes, it will be detrimental to that person but looked at everybody else who has been brought into it. you can say this person is presumed innocent however this is what we are doing, if they said that, then people would know what is going on. get that, then people would know what is aroin on. ,, that, then people would know what is aoian on. ., that, then people would know what is oin on. ., , going on. got you. there are reasons for this, selena _ going on. got you. there are reasons for this, selena lau, _ going on. got you. there are reasons for this, selena lau, might _ going on. got you. there are reasons for this, selena lau, might you - forthis, selena lau, might you explain? for this, selena lau, might you ex-lain? . for this, selena lau, might you ex-lain? , ., for this, selena lau, might you ex-lain? . ., ., , ., explain? yes, there are a number of leaal explain? yes, there are a number of legal reasons _ explain? yes, there are a number of legal reasons why _ explain? yes, there are a number of legal reasons why that _ explain? yes, there are a number of legal reasons why that simple - explain? yes, there are a number of| legal reasons why that simple cannot happen _ legal reasons why that simple cannot happen. your hr consultant i thought explained _ happen. your hr consultant i thought explained extremely well... —— paul gilbert _ explained extremely well... —— paul gilbert. about the fact that the employer has a duty of confidentiality in relation to these issues. _ confidentiality in relation to these issues, and the way that if an investigation of this nature is launched, it is absolutely crucial that the — launched, it is absolutely crucial that the fact that there is an investigation ongoing is kept confidential. we don't know what it

is that— confidential. we don't know what it is that the — confidential. we don't know what it is that the bbc work told on the 19th of— is that the bbc work told on the 19th of may, which is i understand the date _ 19th of may, which is i understand the date when the report was made, and there _ the date when the report was made, and there for, i think it is far too simple _ and there for, i think it is far too simple to— and there for, i think it is far too simple to say that they haven't done anything _ simple to say that they haven't done anything since then, we don't know what _ anything since then, we don't know what they— anything since then, we don't know what they did. and that is quite proper— what they did. and that is quite proper because we shouldn't know what is _ proper because we shouldn't know what is going on with what should essentially be a confidential investigation. but the problem with naming _ investigation. but the problem with naming this person is that, aside from _ naming this person is that, aside from them — naming this person is that, aside from the... of this person is an employee — from the... of this person is an employee of the bbc, so, the employee of the bbc, so, the employee owe a duty of confidentiality to the employee, but also, there is an overriding duty of privacy— also, there is an overriding duty of privacy which, as one of your earlier— privacy which, as one of your earlier corners rightly identified was all— earlier corners rightly identified was all to — earlier corners rightly identified was all to do with the cliff richard casea _ was all to do with the cliff richard case, which nikki very honestly said. _ case, which nikki very honestly said. in— case, which nikki very honestly said, in relation to which the bbc did not— said, in relation to which the bbc did not cover themselves in glory...

it did not cover themselves in glory... it was _ did not cover themselves in glory... it was a _ did not cover themselves in glory... it was a disgrace, wasn't it? it did not cover themselves in glory... it was a disgrace, wasn't it?- it was a disgrace, wasn't it? it was an absolute _ it was a disgrace, wasn't it? it was an absolute disgrace. _ it was a disgrace, wasn't it? it was an absolute disgrace. it _ it was a disgrace, wasn't it? it was an absolute disgrace. it is - an absolute disgrace. it is astonishing actually even now when i think about _ astonishing actually even now when i think about it, how that even came to happen — think about it, how that even came to happen. but what that may very clear— to happen. but what that may very clear was _ to happen. but what that may very clear was that those who are being investigated by the police, this person— investigated by the police, this person isn't being investigated by the police at the moment. so, we're not even _ the police at the moment. so, we're not even at — the police at the moment. so, we're not even at that stage yet. so, there _ not even at that stage yet. so, there is— not even at that stage yet. so, there is a — not even at that stage yet. so, there is a legal entitlement to privacy— there is a legal entitlement to privacy which this person has. and that is— privacy which this person has. and that is why— privacy which this person has. and that is why the bbc is quite right _ that is why the bbc is quite riaht. .. �* that is why the bbc is quite riaht...�* , , that is why the bbc is quite riaht... �* , , ., right... i'm sorry, 'ust looking at the crock. _ right... i'm sorry, 'ust looking at the clock, that's — right... i'm sorry, just looking at the clock, that's why _ right... i'm sorry, just looking at the clock, that's why i'm - right... i'm sorry, just looking at the clock, that's why i'm being i the clock, that's why i'm being rude! what about operation yewtree, when the likes of paul gambaccini, people like that, were named before there were any charges, much to the detriment of their reputation and mental health and bank account...? yeah, that is all pre—... the decision— yeah, that is all pre—... the decision in— yeah, that is all pre—... the decision in cliff richard was a game changer~ _

decision in cliff richard was a game changer. and operation yewtree of course _ changer. and operation yewtree of course happened before that. and again. _ course happened before that. and again. i_ course happened before that. and again, i have had clients who have gone _ again, i have had clients who have gone three — again, i have had clients who have gone three that situation and it is absolutely appalling, because it is absolutely appalling, because it is a career—ending allegation. all of these _ a career—ending allegation. all of these allegations are. so, that was all pre-the — these allegations are. so, that was all pre—the decision in cliff richard. _ all pre—the decision in cliff richard, which was the game changer. and what— richard, which was the game changer. and what happened in operation yewtree — and what happened in operation yewtree would not happen now. right. so, yewtree would not happen now. right. so. when. -- — yewtree would not happen now. right. so, when... obviously— yewtree would not happen now. right. so, when... obviously you _ yewtree would not happen now. right. so, when... obviously you know- so, when... obviously you know better than anyone, we are tiptoeing, but in a situation like this, at what point does it become, does anonymity, become unsustainable?— does anonymity, become unsustainable? . , ., unsustainable? that is a very tough question. nicky- — unsustainable? that is a very tough question, nicky. you _ unsustainable? that is a very tough question, nicky. you see, - unsustainable? that is a very tough question, nicky. you see, if- unsustainable? that is a very tough question, nicky. you see, if i - unsustainable? that is a very tough question, nicky. you see, if i was l question, nicky. you see, if i was advising _ question, nicky. you see, if i was advising the — question, nicky. you see, if i was advising the bbc, i would say, you do not _ advising the bbc, i would say, you do not name. and that is the position— do not name. and that is the position that you have to stay with. i position that you have to stay with. i mean. _ position that you have to stay with. i mean, there is something called

jigsaw— i mean, there is something called jigsaw identification, where enough people _ jigsaw identification, where enough people deny it so you can work out who the _ people deny it so you can work out who the person is. but even so, i would _ who the person is. but even so, i would not — who the person is. but even so, i would not want to be the lawyer that says to _ would not want to be the lawyer that says to the _ would not want to be the lawyer that says to the bbc, right, you have now -ot says to the bbc, right, you have now got to— says to the bbc, right, you have now got to name — says to the bbc, right, you have now got to name this person. because of the legal— got to name this person. because of the legal difficulties that i've explained. the legal difficulties that i've explained-— the legal difficulties that i've ex-lained. . ., , explained. and if you were advising the individual _ explained. and if you were advising the individual themselves? - explained. and if you were advising | the individual themselves? well. . .! it de ends the individual themselves? well. . .! it depends if— the individual themselves? well. . .! it depends if it _ the individual themselves? well. . .! it depends if it is _ the individual themselves? well. . .! it depends if it is true, _ the individual themselves? well. . .! it depends if it is true, doesn't - it depends if it is true, doesn't it? ' . ., it depends if it is true, doesn't it? ~ . ., it depends if it is true, doesn't it? .,, it? mm. would you advise the individual _ it? mm. would you advise the individual to _ it? mm. would you advise the individual to perhaps - it? mm. would you advise the individual to perhaps make . it? mm. would you advise the individual to perhaps make a i individual to perhaps make a statement?— individual to perhaps make a statement? . , ~ individual to perhaps make a statement? . , . ., statement? yes, funnily... we are headina statement? yes, funnily... we are heading there. _ statement? yes, funnily... we are heading there, aren't _ statement? yes, funnily... we are heading there, aren't we? - statement? yes, funnily... we are heading there, aren't we? that - statement? yes, funnily. .. we are i heading there, aren't we? that would clear this _ heading there, aren't we? that would clear this up. — heading there, aren't we? that would clearthis up, in heading there, aren't we? that would clear this up, in the sense of, if it is— clear this up, in the sense of, if it is true — clear this up, in the sense of, if it is true. but then there is an investigation ongoing. there may be a police _ investigation ongoing. there may be a police investigation. and so, again. — a police investigation. and so, again. if— a police investigation. and so, again. if i_ a police investigation. and so, again, if i was advising that individual would certainly be

saying. _ individual would certainly be saying, do not say anything, because you may— saying, do not say anything, because you may compromise either of those investigations for so, that's why, as much— investigations for so, that's why, as much as — investigations for so, that's why, as much as the bbc obviously have responsibility as a public service broadcaster, but legally, those legal— broadcaster, but legally, those legal duties that they have would overcome the responsible of these as a public— overcome the responsible of these as a public service broadcaster. and in a public service broadcaster. and in a way— a public service broadcaster. and in a way this— a public service broadcaster. and in a way this is— a public service broadcaster. and in a way this is two things that are happening, one is, are the bbc acting — happening, one is, are the bbc acting in— happening, one is, are the bbc acting in a _ happening, one is, are the bbc acting in a way that a public service _ acting in a way that a public service broadcaster should act? that is something for later, in my view. at the _ is something for later, in my view. at the moment it is the bbc dealing with this _ at the moment it is the bbc dealing with this matter as a responsible employer. — with this matter as a responsible employer, as your hr consultant explained, and abiding by the entitlement, the legal obligations. -ot entitlement, the legal obligations. got you. _ entitlement, the legal obligations. got you, brilliant, paul gilbert, media lawyer.

so for some people who were falsely named at the weekend, it is important to take a stand against this. on social media, people have been talking about its role in all of this. we were talking about it last week when we've redid to sing thread, the new platform. but what needs to happen? that conversation will feed into this conversation. it will feed into this conversation. it will be good to focus on social media now and for the next hour as well. it is 08085 909693, trial by social media, that is what's coming up.

the justice secretary, alex chalk, says it needs to be established "who knew what, when" at the bbc about allegations against one of its presenters. the sun newspaper has reported that the presenter — who hasn't been named — paid a teenager for explicit photos. he's been suspended, with the bbc saying it's working as fast as possible "to establish the facts". president biden is to meet rishi sunak and the king, during a short visit to the uk. tomorrow he'll attend the nato summit in lithuania. all police forces in england and wales will begin using a new approach to rape and sexual assault investigations from this week. the focus will now be on the behaviour of the accused rather than the alleged victim. a senior us politician is calling for an investigation into the energy drink, prime, which is promoted by youtubers ks! and logan paul. chuck schumer claims the drink is being targeted at children, despite its high caffeine content. bottles of prime do carry a warning that it's not recommended for under 18s.

trial by social media and all the other stuff as well. get in touch, 08085 909693 and you can text on 85058. looking at the console, really interesting. mark stevens, media lawyer, human rights lawyer of great fame and repute. goad media lawyer, human rights lawyer of great fame and repute. good morning. good morning- — great fame and repute. good morning. good morning. you _ great fame and repute. good morning. good morning. you sound _ great fame and repute. good morning. good morning. you sound like - great fame and repute. good morning. good morning. you sound like you - great fame and repute. good morning. good morning. you sound like you are| good morning. you sound like you are in court. good morning. you sound like you are in court- what— good morning. you sound like you are in court. what do _ good morning. you sound like you are in court. what do you _ good morning. you sound like you are in court. what do you make _ good morning. you sound like you are in court. what do you make of- good morning. you sound like you are in court. what do you make of all- in court. what do you make of all this? it in court. what do you make of all this? , ., , ., ., this? it is a bit of an omnishambles. - this? it is a bit of an omnishambles. i- this? it is a bit of an | omnishambles. i had this? it is a bit of an - omnishambles. i had three this? it is a bit of an _ omnishambles. i had three calls from your colleagues while i was sitting at headingley watching the cricket

on saturday. all of whom had been falsely named. and i think people have forgotten that libel is not, twitter is not a libel free zone. we lawyers call it twitter libel. if you are putting reckless suggestions onto social media, any form of social media, it is libel. let's unpack that a bit. you don't have to make a direct accusation, but even asking the question, is it celebrity so and so. in those circumstances, what you are imputing into that is celebrity so and so, in your opinion is a person predisposed to doing that, because they are within the group of people. it is a stone cold libel. there are people who obviously got carried away with the

moment, but there are other individuals who actively controlled people who are getting named and refused to step aside when the individuals denied it. that is a real problem and with twitter having its new regime, i think twitter is also going to come under scrutiny for libel claims as well. because they have done nothing about it. fiur they have done nothing about it. our research on — they have done nothing about it. our research on all of this as well and you know from your clients, to see the allegations, like it is a definitive report, this is him, it sickens you to the stomach, it is an awful thing to go through. as i said, many people go through stuff like that who cannot afford to call people like you? that like that who cannot afford to call people like you?— like that who cannot afford to call people like you? that is absolutely ri a ht. people like you? that is absolutely riaht. i people like you? that is absolutely right- lthink— people like you? that is absolutely right. i think the _ people like you? that is absolutely right. i think the other _ people like you? that is absolutely right. i think the other thing - people like you? that is absolutely right. i think the other thing is, - right. i think the other thing is, this isn't about special treatment for people at the bbc or anything else. the law is very clear, it

doesn't matter if it is somebody down your local club or inappropriate behaviour being alleged in the civil service or a hospital somewhere else, the law is the same. so during the investigator e phase, there is an obligation of confidence because nobody knows enough, nobody knows everything. just to give you an example, on two occasions where i have dealt with similar cases to this, the individuals have responded to the allegations of inappropriate behaviour by saying they were being blackmailed. and therefore that is something that is going to have to be investigated. invariably, there are two competing narratives and they need to be investigated. so the conjecture we are seeing on social media is too early. we don't know enough and that is one of the reasons that the law of libel is there, but also the law of privacy.

people making this conjecture are part of the invasion of privacy. what about retreating? that part of the invasion of privacy. what about retreating? that is the same as tweeting. _ what about retreating? that is the same as tweeting. in _ what about retreating? that is the same as tweeting. in libel, - what about retreating? that is the same as tweeting. in libel, the - same as tweeting. in libel, the person who first utters the statement is regarded as a publisher, but if you redo it, you are in effect repeating it. we sometimes see individuals on twitter saying, retweets are not endorsements, but the law looks through that and says, why are you doing it then? unless there is some good reason to be retweeting it, the law is saying at this point, you shouldn't be naming individuals or doing that nudge, nudge wink, wink. i notice such and such an individual has been dropped from the television at the moment. so all of those things are really problematic. the celebrities are going to wait for these things to calm down, they have

a year before they can sue. in these twitter libel is, in these cases, very often if it was somebody with a low—grade number of followers, in those circumstances you might allow them to tweet an apology and then call it quits. but in many cases, there are people with inappropriately large followers who are speculating in this defamatory way, in this breach of privacy way and they will be liable for damages. actually, they have caused real harm. one of your colleagues was being trolled by somebody who has around 20,000 followers. that is going to have a significant impact on their reputation. when you have 20,000 people following you, their amplification mode is significantly bigger than the ordinary person in the street. ., . bigger than the ordinary person in the street. ., , ., ~ the street. there was nothing like this, the street. there was nothing like this. one. — the street. there was nothing like this, one, asking _ the street. there was nothing like this, one, asking for _ the street. there was nothing like this, one, asking for a _ the street. there was nothing like this, one, asking for a friend, - this, one, asking for a friend, there was one tweet i saw and he or

she had a handful of followers but it had been viewed by around 10,000 people. it had been viewed by around 10,000 a-eole. . ., it had been viewed by around 10,000 eo le, , ., , it had been viewed by around 10,000 a-eole. , ., ,., ., people. yes, that is another thing. so what the _ people. yes, that is another thing. so what the court _ people. yes, that is another thing. so what the court does, _ people. yes, that is another thing. so what the court does, indeed - people. yes, that is another thing. i so what the court does, indeed what claimants do, is look at the impact. so if a person with limited numbers of followers is retweeted oh there is a significant amount of engagement with that sort of thing, it is the impact on the individual thatis it is the impact on the individual that is being injected about. that is how they level the damages. some think that is in the middle of the night, nobody really picks it up, thatis night, nobody really picks it up, that is not going to attract a huge amount of damages. but if you have five, 10,000 views, then in those circumstances, you are having an impact on somebody�*s life and

damages will follow from that. it is a serious business for what a lot of people think it is a bit of a laugh, gossip, water cooler conversation. but this is having a direct impact on people's lives. that gets to the truth of these things which is why we don't allow this conjecture, which in the cliff richard case, you have a reasonable expectation of privacy, whether it is you or anybody else during the investigation phase. during the investigation phase. during the investigation phase, you are ascertaining what the facts are, what are the competing narratives and is there evidence of any serious wrongdoing? unfortunately, this is being played out daily because, you know, new allegations came into the bbc last thursday. that has resulted in a meeting with the police and the reason that is happening is that the police have an obligation to investigate if there is a potential

crime. they may well say they are not engaged and they are not going to investigate, but they have to be given first dibs. you don't want some hr professional tramping through the evidence basis and so the police always get the first go and anything the bbc does will be held in abeyance until then. what held in abeyance untilthen. what about those _ held in abeyance untilthen. what about those tweets _ held in abeyance untilthen. what about those tweets at _ held in abeyance untilthen. what about those tweets at the - held in abeyance until then. what about those tweets at the weekend, calls coming in, fran coming up and pull in belfast. mark, what about the tweets we saw at the weekend which was kind of, it could be this person, that person, and it could be this other person, but my money is on this person. do they have a claim? . , on this person. do they have a claim? , , ., on this person. do they have a claim? . , ., ., on this person. do they have a claim? . , . ., ., on this person. do they have a claim? , , . ., ., . ., claim? yes, they all have a claim. we have false _ claim? yes, they all have a claim. we have false premises, - claim? yes, they all have a claim. we have false premises, so - claim? yes, they all have a claim. we have false premises, so if - claim? yes, they all have a claim. we have false premises, so if you| we have false premises, so if you make a false allegation against somebody, could it be a comedy, see?

in fact, it is d. what you are doing is invading the privacy of a comedy and see. because you are saying it could be them and you are narrowing the pool. once you start naming names, once you start doing nudge, nudge, wink, wink, this is the kind of person i think it is going to be. you are in hot water from a defamation perspective, thousands of pounds worth of damages and costs and also a breach of privacy case. the bbc are in a bad position because under the employment law they cannot identify the individual during the investigation phase. and that means they cannot stand up and defend their entirely innocent presenters. and that is why so many of the presenters have had to come out and you know, the higher the profile of the individual, more there seems to have been attention paid to them. that is a problem but that will sound in damages so those

individuals will undoubtedly be receiving, presenters left and right, no—win, no fee legal claims and they will be liable for the damages. and they will be liable for the damages-— and they will be liable for the damaaes. . ., . , and they will be liable for the damaaes. . ., _ , damages. obviously there were comp labs at the weekend _ damages. obviously there were comp labs at the weekend between - damages. obviously there were comp labs at the weekend between some . damages. obviously there were comp| labs at the weekend between some of us and somebody said, we need to put out a statement, we need to get the bbc to put out a statement saying it is none of us. but as you say, there is none of us. but as you say, there is a problem in that.— is a problem in that. once you start narrowina is a problem in that. once you start narrowing the _ is a problem in that. once you start narrowing the field, _ is a problem in that. once you start narrowing the field, ten _ is a problem in that. once you start narrowing the field, ten names - is a problem in that. once you start narrowing the field, ten names in i narrowing the field, ten names in the frame and you say, it isn't nine, there is clear identification. it is an agatha christie thing, isn't it? what about this one, what about this individual, just finally and you are welcome to stay, do you think this name because of the momentum, do you think this name will come out? i momentum, do you think this name will come out?— will come out? i think the name has come out. — will come out? i think the name has come out, frankly. _ will come out? i think the name has come out, frankly. overnight -

will come out? i think the name has come out, frankly. overnight i - will come out? i think the name has come out, frankly. overnight i have| come out, frankly. overnight i have had multiple calls from people saying i have heard it is this person. and i happen to know they are correct. i think there is a coalition around particular... a particular name. the coalition around particular. .. a particular name.— coalition around particular... a particular name. the name is not aublicl particular name. the name is not publicly known. _ particular name. the name is not publicly known. it _ particular name. the name is not publicly known. it is _ particular name. the name is not publicly known. it is not - particular name. the name is not publicly known. it is not publiclyl publicly known. it is not publicly known but _ publicly known. it is not publicly known but there _ publicly known. it is not publicly known but there is _ publicly known. it is not publicly known but there is a _ publicly known. it is not publicly known but there is a large - publicly known. it is not publicly i known but there is a large number publicly known. it is not publicly - known but there is a large number of people who are now coalescing around one name and that is part of the problem. this is supposed to be... the individuals, the young man who has made the complaint and indeed the individual who is being complained about our entitled... taste complained about our entitled... we don't know the gender either, let me stop either, if you are watching bbc two, politics live is next and we are continuing our conversation on bbc five live and bbc sounds. expertise in interesting stuff, fall

in belfast, what do you think? personally i think take a step back and let— personally i think take a step back and let people identify themselves appropriately through these different social media companies they have. and what i mean by that, these _ they have. and what i mean by that, these companies take responsibility and whether their online username, it is good _ and whether their online username, it is good to — and whether their online username, it is good to have an alias but we must _ it is good to have an alias but we must be — it is good to have an alias but we must be able to identify those people — must be able to identify those people very quickly. those people should _ people very quickly. those people should understand that what they are saying _ should understand that what they are saying online, it does have an effect — saying online, it does have an effect elsewhere. i'm very much of the opinion— effect elsewhere. i'm very much of the opinion that people take responsibility for what they say and it is important we have freedom of speech. _ it is important we have freedom of speech, but take responsibility for what they— speech, but take responsibility for what they say, causing offence, or an invasion — what they say, causing offence, or an invasion of privacy and libel. that— an invasion of privacy and libel. that must— an invasion of privacy and libel. that must be dealt with appropriately. | that must be dealt with appropriately.— that must be dealt with appropriately. that must be dealt with a-aro-riatel . . ., . ., appropriately. i mean, lots of a-eole appropriately. i mean, lots of people are — appropriately. i mean, lots of people are saying _ appropriately. i mean, lots of people are saying what - appropriately. i mean, lots of people are saying what you i appropriately. i mean, lots of. people are saying what you are saying, but my understanding is it

is fairly straightforward on an anonymous account for the police to find out who it is. it takes a few days, but they get there. did they eat there, days, but they get there. did they get there. or _ days, but they get there. did they get there. or is — days, but they get there. did they get there, or is it _ days, but they get there. did they get there, or is it a _ days, but they get there. did they get there, or is it a case _ days, but they get there. did they get there, or is it a case of- days, but they get there. did they get there, or is it a case of we - get there, or is it a case of we know— get there, or is it a case of we know they— get there, or is it a case of we know they have got an e—mail address and a _ know they have got an e—mail address and a mobile — know they have got an e—mail address and a mobile numberand know they have got an e—mail address and a mobile number and we can go that way _ and a mobile number and we can go that way. but i think there are so many— that way. but i think there are so many people, so many people create accounts _ many people, so many people create accounts constantly, they do it to control— accounts constantly, they do it to control people and annoy people and because _ control people and annoy people and because it _ control people and annoy people and because it is a bit of fun and they feel they— because it is a bit of fun and they feel they can do and see what they want and _ feel they can do and see what they want and get away with it. i think it is taking — want and get away with it. i think it is taking that back and saying, when _ it is taking that back and saying, when you — it is taking that back and saying, when you dojoin it is taking that back and saying, when you do join an account, whatever— when you do join an account, whatever they are, they when they si-n whatever they are, they when they sign up. _ whatever they are, they when they sign up, this is new and i have to sign _ sign up, this is new and i have to sign up— sign up, this is new and i have to sign up with— sign up, this is new and i have to sign up with my passport and people need to— sign up with my passport and people need to know who i am and i will be held to _ need to know who i am and i will be held to account. and i think it will not exactly— held to account. and i think it will not exactly solve the issue but slow down _ not exactly solve the issue but slow down some — not exactly solve the issue but slow down some of the rubbish coming through— down some of the rubbish coming through on— down some of the rubbish coming through on social media. people who

io through on social media. people who go through— through on social media. people who go through the mill with an accusation, it is constant, it happens _ accusation, it is constant, it happens across the board. these independent people trying to get on with their— independent people trying to get on with their lives, being accused of things— with their lives, being accused of things on— with their lives, being accused of things on a — with their lives, being accused of things on a daily basis. not everyone _ things on a daily basis. not everyone can afford lawyers, can get that support. if it is 5% of the wealthy— that support. if it is 5% of the wealthy who can go and tap into that resource _ wealthy who can go and tap into that resource to — wealthy who can go and tap into that resource to get libel or get someone to retract _ resource to get libel or get someone to retract a _ resource to get libel or get someone to retract a statement, i would suggest — to retract a statement, i would suggest that 90% of the comments that are _ suggest that 90% of the comments that are made online are never retracted. _ that are made online are never retracted, nevertaken that are made online are never retracted, never taken into account and when _ retracted, never taken into account and when people are not charged, certainly— and when people are not charged, certainly people don't get money for it. i certainly people don't get money for it i hear— certainly people don't get money for it. i hearyour issue, the certainly people don't get money for it. i hear your issue, the police might— it. i hear your issue, the police might get— it. i hear your issue, the police might get to the bottom of something at some _ might get to the bottom of something at some point. no offence to the police. _ at some point. no offence to the police. the — at some point. no offence to the police, the fact they are spending resources — police, the fact they are spending resources to chase people to get to that point. — resources to chase people to get to that point, a lot of the companies who own — that point, a lot of the companies who own these social media accounts, let them _ who own these social media accounts, let them take responsibility. let's have more — let them take responsibility. let's have more scrutiny on these people

and again. — have more scrutiny on these people and again, put the onus back on to the person— and again, put the onus back on to the person he was signing up to say, whatever— the person he was signing up to say, whatever you put online here will be used and _ whatever you put online here will be used and can be used against you in various— used and can be used against you in various courts of law.— various courts of law. anything you sa will various courts of law. anything you say will be — various courts of law. anything you say will be taken _ various courts of law. anything you say will be taken down _ various courts of law. anything you say will be taken down and - various courts of law. anything you say will be taken down and used i various courts of law. anything you say will be taken down and used as evidence against you.— say will be taken down and used as evidence against you. ififiisé. what evidence against you. 100%. what about the evidence against you. 10096. what about the companies? _ evidence against you. 10096. what about the companies? 10096. - evidence against you. 10096. what - about the companies? 10096. member when ou about the companies? 10096. member when you signed _ about the companies? 10096. member when you signed up — about the companies? 10096. member when you signed up for— about the companies? 10096. member when you signed up for facebook- about the companies? 10096. member when you signed up for facebook back in the _ when you signed up for facebook back in the day. _ when you signed up for facebook back in the day. it— when you signed up for facebook back in the day, it was like a disclaimer, photographs you put online _ disclaimer, photographs you put online belong to facebook. my mentality at the time is, i had better— mentality at the time is, i had better not— mentality at the time is, i had better not put anything in there that i_ better not put anything in there that i want someone to own, to have in the _ that i want someone to own, to have in the future — that i want someone to own, to have in the future. i want my imagery to be my— in the future. i want my imagery to be my imagery. comments that are put onto twitter _ be my imagery. comments that are put onto twitter should be owned by twitter~ — onto twitter should be owned by twitter. comments put onto thread instagram _ twitter. comments put onto thread instagram or whatever, should be owned _ instagram or whatever, should be owned by— instagram or whatever, should be owned by those platforms. i know they do— owned by those platforms. i know they do it —

owned by those platforms. i know they do it... if you are writing something _ they do it... if you are writing something which is inappropriate language and other such things, if you put— language and other such things, if you put on— language and other such things, if you put on pictures that are inappropriate, they will be removed by the _ inappropriate, they will be removed by the social media company. again, if they— by the social media company. again, if they are _ by the social media company. again, if they are able to do that, why can't _ if they are able to do that, why can't they— if they are able to do that, why can't they quickly go in and move commentary which is libel and which is invading _ commentary which is libel and which is invading somebody's privity? i would _ is invading somebody's privity? i would put — is invading somebody's privity? i would put this back onto the companies, it is very important. yesa _ companies, it is very important. yes. thank— companies, it is very important. yes, thank you, paul. fran in leeds and moira and nina in inverness. hello to all of you. welcome, hello. moira, hr consultant, what do you think about this?— moira, hr consultant, what do you think about this? well, i would hate to be in the — think about this? well, i would hate to be in the hr _ think about this? well, i would hate to be in the hr department - think about this? well, i would hate to be in the hr department in - think about this? well, i would hate to be in the hr department in the i to be in the hr department in the bbc at the moment. they must be

running round very, very busy. the thing i rang in the back, iwas interested to hear about your hr consultant outlining very well the kind of investigator reprocess. but one of the things i wanted to raise was normally in my experience, if the hr department are informed of something that might lead to a criminal case, a criminal prosecution, they are duty before they continue to do their internal investigation to actually talk to the police and get permission to proceed with that internal investigation. i don't know at the moment what has happened, really. it seems to be the bbc's steaming ahead on the investigation and of course, if the police have not given permission then actually, if any case then subsequently goes to court, the individual could very well say it is not a fair trial. if

well say it is not a fair trial. if you were there at that meeting, what lo would you be laying down to the bbc? there is lots of meetings going on at the moment, moira, i can tell you that. i on at the moment, moira, i can tell ou that. ~ ., .,, ., , , you that. i think that obviously the la ers you that. i think that obviously the lawyers would _ you that. i think that obviously the lawyers would need _ you that. i think that obviously the lawyers would need to _ you that. i think that obviously the lawyers would need to be, - you that. i think that obviously the lawyers would need to be, legal. lawyers would need to be, legal counsel would be in that room for the bbc. it isjust counsel would be in that room for the bbc. it is just how far the bbc needs to report the facts as they know them to the police and to say, are you happy that we continue with our internal investigation? the police may say yes, they may say no. they may say, we want you to do this, but not that. i have a background of working in the care sector and we often had cases where maybe a vulnerable adult had had some money stolen. he would always go to the police and say, do you want to run it or do you want us to

run it? it depended on the case, sometimes the police would put in marketer money so they could find out he was perpetrating the theft. other times we were allowed to proceed. —— marked money. this food is going all over the media, the only thing everybody is talking about, it seems odd that we are talking about an investigation, we are talking about all these meetings you havejust are talking about all these meetings you have just mentioned. are talking about all these meetings you havejust mentioned. we have to think about a fair process because you are still innocent until proven guilty. you are still innocent until proven auil . ~ ., you are still innocent until proven auil . ~ . ., you are still innocent until proven ruil ,. ., ., you are still innocent until proven ruil ,. ., “ you are still innocent until proven auil .~ . ~ ., you are still innocent until proven ruil .~ . ~ . guilty. what do you think, fran? i think whilst _ guilty. what do you think, fran? i think whilst the — guilty. what do you think, fran? i think whilst the bbc— guilty. what do you think, fran? i think whilst the bbc are _ guilty. what do you think, fran? i think whilst the bbc are not - guilty. what do you think, fran? i think whilst the bbc are not able l guilty. what do you think, fran? i l think whilst the bbc are not able to control— think whilst the bbc are not able to control what is being said on social media _ control what is being said on social media and — control what is being said on social media and the wider internet, i think— media and the wider internet, i think some consideration does need to be _ think some consideration does need to be given — think some consideration does need to be given to the other presenters. they have _ to be given to the other presenters. they have to come out over the weekend. — they have to come out over the weekend, saying it wasn't them and celebrities— weekend, saying it wasn't them and celebrities try not to read about themselves online, but if they are reading _ themselves online, but if they are reading about themselves and seeing

all these _ reading about themselves and seeing all these horrible things and the suggestion they are involved some way with— suggestion they are involved some way with the scandal, it must be detrimental to their mental health. i 'ust detrimental to their mental health. ijust wondered that surely as an employer. — ijust wondered that surely as an employer, the bbc must have a duty of care _ employer, the bbc must have a duty of care to _ employer, the bbc must have a duty of care to those employees who are now sort _ of care to those employees who are now sort of — of care to those employees who are now sort of being called out on social— now sort of being called out on social media and discussed on social media _ social media and discussed on social media as _ social media and discussed on social media as a _ social media and discussed on social media as a result of their employment with the bbc? it is a tou a h employment with the bbc? it is a tough one. _ employment with the bbc? it is a tough one, isn't _ employment with the bbc? it is a tough one, isn't it? _ employment with the bbc? it is a tough one, isn't it? it _ employment with the bbc? it is a tough one, isn't it? it is, - employment with the bbc? it is a tough one, isn't it? it is, it- employment with the bbc? it is a tough one, isn't it? it is, it is- employment with the bbc? it is a tough one, isn't it? it is, it is a i tough one, isn't it? it is, it is a difficult one _ tough one, isn't it? it is, it is a difficult one because _ tough one, isn't it? it is, it is a difficult one because equally, i tough one, isn't it? it is, it is a - difficult one because equally, what other— difficult one because equally, what other people have said about protecting the confidentiality of the person involved while they are carrying _ the person involved while they are carrying out investigations, but then— carrying out investigations, but then obviously i wouldn't want it to be me _ then obviously i wouldn't want it to be me. ., ., ., then obviously i wouldn't want it to be me-_ my - then obviously i wouldn't want it to be me-_ my points! be me. no. nina, hello. my points were more —

be me. no. nina, hello. my points were more general, _ be me. no. nina, hello. my points were more general, but _ be me. no. nina, hello. my points were more general, but listening i be me. no. nina, hello. my pointsl were more general, but listening to what everyone _ were more general, but listening to what everyone else _ were more general, but listening to what everyone else is _ were more general, but listening to what everyone else is saying - were more general, but listening to what everyone else is saying and ii what everyone else is saying and i agree _ what everyone else is saying and i agree with — what everyone else is saying and i agree with everybody, _ what everyone else is saying and i agree with everybody, it - what everyone else is saying and i agree with everybody, it is - what everyone else is saying and i agree with everybody, it is a - agree with everybody, it is a difficult _ agree with everybody, it is a difficult situation. _ agree with everybody, it is a difficult situation. i- agree with everybody, it is a difficult situation. i feel - agree with everybody, it is a difficult situation. i feel thatj difficult situation. i feel that social— difficult situation. i feel that social media _ difficult situation. i feel that social media is _ difficult situation. i feel that social media is a _ difficult situation. i feel that social media is a new- difficult situation. i feel that| social media is a new format difficult situation. i feel that i social media is a new format of difficult situation. i feel that - social media is a new format of a human— social media is a new format of a human condition _ social media is a new format of a human condition that _ social media is a new format of a human condition that has - social media is a new format of a i human condition that has happened for as— human condition that has happened for as long — human condition that has happened for as long as — human condition that has happened for as long as we _ human condition that has happened for as long as we have _ human condition that has happened for as long as we have had - human condition that has happened for as long as we have had humani for as long as we have had human beings. _ for as long as we have had human beings. it— for as long as we have had human beings. it is— for as long as we have had human beings. it isjust— for as long as we have had human beings, it isjust gossip. - for as long as we have had human beings, it isjust gossip. the - beings, it isjust gossip. the difference _ beings, it isjust gossip. the difference is, _ beings, it isjust gossip. the difference is, it— beings, it isjust gossip. the difference is, it would - beings, it isjust gossip. the difference is, it would socialj beings, it isjust gossip. the - difference is, it would social media today— difference is, it would social media today there — difference is, it would social media today there is _ difference is, it would social media today there is actual— difference is, it would social media today there is actual evidence. - difference is, it would social media today there is actual evidence. it. today there is actual evidence. it is today there is actual evidence. is the. it is turbo—charged scuttlebutt. it is high octane chitchat. �* ., , scuttlebutt. it is high octane chitchat. �* ., chitchat. and the conversations are not 'ust chitchat. and the conversations are not just evolving _ chitchat. and the conversations are not just evolving verbally _ chitchat. and the conversations are notjust evolving verbally and - not just evolving verbally and people — not just evolving verbally and people have _ not just evolving verbally and people have to— not just evolving verbally and people have to try _ not just evolving verbally and people have to try and - not just evolving verbally and people have to try and find i not just evolving verbally and i people have to try and find the evidence — people have to try and find the evidence after, _ people have to try and find the evidence after, the _ people have to try and find the evidence after, the evidence . people have to try and find the evidence after, the evidence is there _ evidence after, the evidence is there because _ evidence after, the evidence is there because people - evidence after, the evidence is there because people can - evidence after, the evidence is there because people can addi evidence after, the evidence is i there because people can add to evidence after, the evidence is - there because people can add to the conversation — there because people can add to the conversation for— there because people can add to the conversation for as— there because people can add to the conversation for as long _ there because people can add to the conversation for as long as - there because people can add to the conversation for as long as the - conversation for as long as the threat — conversation for as long as the threat is — conversation for as long as the threat is there. _ conversation for as long as the threat is there. tire _ conversation for as long as the threat is there.— conversation for as long as the threat is there. are you on any of it? i threat is there. are you on any of it? i haven't _ threat is there. are you on any of it? i haven't contributed - threat is there. are you on any of it? i haven't contributed to - threat is there. are you on any of it? i haven't contributed to this i it? i haven't contributed to this articular it? i haven't contributed to this particular one. _ it? i haven't contributed to this particular one. no, _ it? i haven't contributed to this particular one. no, are - it? i haven't contributed to this particular one. no, are you - it? i haven't contributed to this particular one. no, are you on| particular one. no, are you on social media? _

particular one. no, are you on social media? yes, _ particular one. no, are you on social media? yes, i - particular one. no, are you on social media? yes, i have - particular one. no, are you on| social media? yes, i have been university _ social media? yes, i have been university since _ social media? yes, i have been university since most _ social media? yes, i have been university since most of - social media? yes, i have been university since most of them i social media? yes, i have been - university since most of them began. i university since most of them began. i don't _ university since most of them began. i don't try— university since most of them began. idon't try to — university since most of them began. idon't try to link— university since most of them began. i don't try to link my— university since most of them began. i don't try to link my accounts. - university since most of them began. i don't try to link my accounts. gill. i don't try to link my accounts. all of us on i don't try to link my accounts. of us on social media, we i don't try to link my accounts. iii of us on social media, we see i don't try to link my accounts.- of us on social media, we see stuff and we wince and think, my goodness me, it is notjust the toxicity, it is people pushing the boundaries. it is people pushing the boundaries. it is people pushing the boundaries. it is very hard to avoid it, hard to avoid _ is very hard to avoid it, hard to avoid social— is very hard to avoid it, hard to avoid social media. _ is very hard to avoid it, hard to avoid social media. it- is very hard to avoid it, hard to avoid social media. it is- is very hard to avoid it, hard to avoid social media. it is very. is very hard to avoid it, hard to i avoid social media. it is very hard to avoid _ avoid social media. it is very hard to avoid gossip _ avoid social media. it is very hard to avoid gossip. it _ avoid social media. it is very hard to avoid gossip. it always - avoid social media. it is very hard to avoid gossip. it always has - avoid social media. it is very hard . to avoid gossip. it always has been. it is to avoid gossip. it always has been. it is very— to avoid gossip. it always has been. it is very hard — to avoid gossip. it always has been. it is very hard to _ to avoid gossip. it always has been. it is very hard to avoid _ to avoid gossip. it always has been. it is very hard to avoid gossip - to avoid gossip. it always has been. it is very hard to avoid gossip and l it is very hard to avoid gossip and always has been. the conversation continues here on five live and also bbc sounds. but on bbc news, if you are watching, we are going to break away for coverage of president biden coming to the uk. that doesn't apply to journalists, but anyone with an audience, so social media and privity in the uk people have a reasonable expectation

of privacy that has to be balanced with the right for freedom of expression to say things about other people. those things have to be balanced, but even if there is a police investigation, that doesn't mean somebody's reasonable expectation of privacy is taken away. that is the latest case law in the united kingdom.— away. that is the latest case law in the united kingdom. thank you very much for now- _ much for now. you are watching bbc news and welcome to people joining you are watching bbc news and welcome to peoplejoining us in the uk. our main news story today is us presidentjoe biden is in london for talks ahead of a major nato summit in lithuania this week. his visit comes after criticism of washington over its decision to send cluster bombs to ukraine. joe biden is expected in downing street to meet prime minister rishi sunak shortly and my colleague is therefore as now. they have got the red carpet rolled out, they have been sweeping that red carpet as well. what are we expecting, just a brief visit, isn't

it? it expecting, 'ust a brief visit, isn't it? , ., , expecting, 'ust a brief visit, isn't it? , ., y ., , expecting, 'ust a brief visit, isn't it? , ., , ., , , , it? it is only a brief visit. it is 10.26 it? it is only a brief visit. it is 10-26 and — it? it is only a brief visit. it is 10.26 and we _ it? it is only a brief visit. it is 10.26 and we were _ it? it is only a brief visit. it is 10.26 and we were told - it? it is only a brief visit. it is 10.26 and we were told he i it? it is only a brief visit. it is 10.26 and we were told he is| it? it is only a brief visit. it is - 10.26 and we were told he is due here around 10.30, so in about five minutes from now also. as you mentioned, the red carpet has been laid out and about an hour ago we saw the sniffer dogs doing the rounds here in downing street. unsurprisingly, you have the world's media on the doorstep, including the white house travelling press pack as well. this is the first time president biden has come here to meet prime minister rishi sunak. they have met on a number of occasions, they met in washington not too long ago as well. they have met on the west coast of america, they have met injapan as well. they met in ireland as well. they have met in ireland as well. they have met on a number of occasions but president biden is coming to downing street for these talks. we are told they won't last any longer than an

hour, some have said 45 minutes. it is a huge agender they have to get through in that short space of time. i'm joined by rob watson. it is good to talk to you again. lots to get through in a very short space of time, what do you think will be top of the agenda, probably ukraine? i of the agenda, probably ukraine? i think so, in the sense of whatever differences — think so, in the sense of whatever differences there may be amongst the nato allies on ukraine, what the united _ nato allies on ukraine, what the united states, uk and the other members — united states, uk and the other members are keen and, by the time they get— members are keen and, by the time they get to — members are keen and, by the time they get to the end of the summit and the _ they get to the end of the summit and the message is undoubtedly clear to russia _ and the message is undoubtedly clear to russia and the rest of the well, that the _ to russia and the rest of the well, that the us, the uk and the rest of nato will— that the us, the uk and the rest of nato will be thoroughly behind ukraine — nato will be thoroughly behind ukraine. even though, as we have discussed — ukraine. even though, as we have discussed earlier, there are some differences of opinion about things like cluster munitions or when ukraine — like cluster munitions or when ukraine should join nato. let�*s like cluster munitions or when ukraine should join nato. ukraine should 'oin nato. let's talk about the first — ukraine should join nato. let's talk about the first point _ ukraine should join nato. let's talk about the first point that _ ukraine should join nato. let's talk about the first point that you - about the first point that you raised, which was cluster bombs.

over the weekend, there was controversy after president biden said he was going to be sending cluster munitions to ukraine, not least because the uk has signed up to an agreement not to use them. how much does this kind of show some signs of cracks in the relationship between the two of them when it comes to ukraine? fin between the two of them when it comes to ukraine?— between the two of them when it comes to ukraine? on this issue, i don't think— comes to ukraine? on this issue, i don't think so _ comes to ukraine? on this issue, i don't think so much. _ comes to ukraine? on this issue, i don't think so much. what - comes to ukraine? on this issue, i don't think so much. what has - comes to ukraine? on this issue, i. don't think so much. what has really struck— don't think so much. what has really struck me _ don't think so much. what has really struck me about the reaction from other— struck me about the reaction from other nato— struck me about the reaction from other nato allies, including the united — other nato allies, including the united kingdom to the us announcement on cluster munitions is, announcement on cluster munitions is. yes. _ announcement on cluster munitions is. yes. they— announcement on cluster munitions is, yes, they are concerned, yes they— is, yes, they are concerned, yes they have — is, yes, they are concerned, yes they have said they are not entirely happy. _ they have said they are not entirely happy, they wouldn't do it and have given— happy, they wouldn't do it and have given them — happy, they wouldn't do it and have given them up. but what is striking is how— given them up. but what is striking is how restrained the criticism is. are they— is how restrained the criticism is. are they happy about it, countries like the _ are they happy about it, countries like the uk? no. do they prioritise ukraine _ like the uk? no. do they prioritise ukraine at— like the uk? no. do they prioritise ukraine at being defeated? absolutely. the bigger issue is this question— absolutely. the bigger issue is this question of the timing and the process— question of the timing and the process for ukraine at some point joining _ process for ukraine at some point joining nato. because you have on

one end _ joining nato. because you have on one end of— joining nato. because you have on one end of the spectrum, the americans are with the germans. then you have _ americans are with the germans. then you have those countries that border russia _ you have those countries that border russia and _ you have those countries that border russia and ukraine saying, let's get on with— russia and ukraine saying, let's get on with it. _ russia and ukraine saying, let's get on with it, let's get ukraine into the alliance sooner, rather than later _ the alliance sooner, rather than later. ~ ., . the alliance sooner, rather than later. . . , �* , the alliance sooner, rather than later. . , �*, ., ., later. what is the uk's position on that? the uk _ later. what is the uk's position on that? the uk is— later. what is the uk's position on that? the uk is go _ later. what is the uk's position on that? the uk is go for— later. what is the uk's position on that? the uk is go for it _ later. what is the uk's position on that? the uk is go for it now- that? the uk is go for it now and the us is, let's wait and see? i the us is, let's wait and see? i don't think the uk is as far over as the baltic— don't think the uk is as far over as the baltic republics and the eastern europeans. but the uk is as close to that decision as it is to the americans and the germans, who are far more _ americans and the germans, who are far more cautious about exactly how you bring _ far more cautious about exactly how you bring ukraine into nato. that said. _ you bring ukraine into nato. that said. the — you bring ukraine into nato. that said, the uk and the us are of one opinion. _ said, the uk and the us are of one opinion, they don't want ukraine to be defeated and it is vital. but neither do _ be defeated and it is vital. bit neither do they want to find themselves at war with russia. do you think some of the conversation that will be happening very soon behind that door is going to be a

bit of arm—twisting, perhaps with the prime minister to encourage president biden to change his position on that before the summit? it is interesting to go back where we started, it is barely minutes to -et we started, it is barely minutes to get the _ we started, it is barely minutes to get the coffee on a get the coffee pot going. i would suspect not. we will no _ pot going. i would suspect not. we will no doubt find out afterwards, because — will no doubt find out afterwards, because we will be able to speak to the us— because we will be able to speak to the us and — because we will be able to speak to the us and uk officials of the record — the us and uk officials of the record but i go back to the first point. — record but i go back to the first point. i— record but i go back to the first point, i think for the western alliance. _ point, i think for the western alliance, whatever differences you might _ alliance, whatever differences you might have for the finer details of the strategy, there is the message they want— the strategy, there is the message they want to get out, which is, we are not— they want to get out, which is, we are not going to let ukraine down. there _ are not going to let ukraine down. there is— are not going to let ukraine down. there is lots of other things that there are likely to discuss. when they met in washington, artificial intelligence was high on the agenda and i remember seeing both leader sitting in the oval office talking about a partnership that they would do on that. tell us more about the way these countries want to work

together on that and whether it is a big deal? it is part of a series of areas where — it is part of a series of areas where they want to work together, with technology, economics and security. — with technology, economics and security, and ai is one of them. in june. _ security, and ai is one of them. in june. in— security, and ai is one of them. in june, in washington, rishi sunak signed _ june, in washington, rishi sunak signed an— june, in washington, rishi sunak signed an atlantic declaration such that the _ signed an atlantic declaration such that the us and the uk would work together— that the us and the uk would work together in all sorts of areas, and it has— together in all sorts of areas, and it has been— together in all sorts of areas, and it has been pointed out that it is a long. _ it has been pointed out that it is a long. long — it has been pointed out that it is a long, long way short of a free trade deal. _ long, long way short of a free trade deal. but _ long, long way short of a free trade deal, but that it was a sort of a building — deal, but that it was a sort of a building block. on the specific issue — building block. on the specific issue of— building block. on the specific issue of ai, what is interesting is that the — issue of ai, what is interesting is that the uk is certainly prime ministers _ that the uk is certainly prime ministers sooner hoped that britain will play— ministers sooner hoped that britain will play a — ministers sooner hoped that britain will play a leading role on that issue — will play a leading role on that issue as — will play a leading role on that issue as in _ will play a leading role on that issue as in other areas of biotechnology, and will be a leader, maybe _ biotechnology, and will be a leader, maybe even have a regulatory effect, ithink— maybe even have a regulatory effect, i think that _ maybe even have a regulatory effect, i think that is going to be... the americans— i think that is going to be... the americans have been quite encouraging, supporting rishi sunak's— encouraging, supporting rishi sunak's idea of holding a summit on al here _ sunak's idea of holding a summit on al here in— sunak's idea of holding a summit on al here in london later in the year,

ai here in london later in the year, but in _ ai here in london later in the year, but in terms — ai here in london later in the year, but in terms of the uk dominating regulation — but in terms of the uk dominating regulation of this or any other area. — regulation of this or any other area, clearly the uk will have to contend — area, clearly the uk will have to contend with the two genuine superpowers of regulation, and that is the _ superpowers of regulation, and that is the us— superpowers of regulation, and that is the us and the european union. | is the us and the european union. should tell is the us and the european union. i should tell our viewers that we can hear a helicopter circling above downing street, which might mean that the arrival the beast is a midden imminent. it is 10.32, which is two minutes late but we know that presidents are rarely on time. so, presidents are rarely on time. so, president biden will arrive in the beast, that massive armoured, bullet—proof, everything prove car, isn't it? it bullet-proof, everything prove car, isn't it? . bullet-proof, everything prove car, isn't it? , ., bullet-proof, everything prove car, isn't it? , . , isn't it? it is. i have never been in the beast _ isn't it? it is. i have never been in the beast but _ isn't it? it is. i have never been in the beast but when - isn't it? it is. i have never been in the beast but when i - isn't it? it is. i have never been in the beast but when i was - isn't it? it is. i have never been in the beast but when i was a i isn't it? it is. i have never been i in the beast but when i was a bbc washington correspondent, i'm not sure if you ever had the joy of doing this, i was once part of a presidential delegation, when you are known is what is known as the pool are known is what is known as the pool, the small group of reporters who follow the president around, and we were in part of a convoy of something like 40 cars, we were in something like 40 cars, we were in something which looked like a beast

and we were going through the streets of thailand and i have to say if you want to beat the traffic, wherever you are, you want to be part of that convoy. the fact that helicopters are here means that i think it is not going to be too late. in think it is not going to be too late. . ., , ., , think it is not going to be too late. . ., , . think it is not going to be too late. ., , late. in washington dc, traffic can sto- for late. in washington dc, traffic can stop for about _ late. in washington dc, traffic can stop for about half _ late. in washington dc, traffic can stop for about half an _ late. in washington dc, traffic can stop for about half an hour - late. in washington dc, traffic can stop for about half an hour when i stop for about half an hour when they presidential convoy goes through the city to get the president of the white house or somewhere else and i suspect that will be the same in westminster, it was intense security as we were coming in?— was intense security as we were comina in? , ., ., . ., coming in? yes, and i noticed that there is a bit more _ coming in? yes, and i noticed that there is a bit more of— coming in? yes, and i noticed that there is a bit more of a crowd - coming in? yes, and i noticed that there is a bit more of a crowd outl there is a bit more of a crowd out there, it is a sort of happy coincidence i suppose with the high tourist season in britain, and now they're being this rather high—profile visitor, and one suspects that there is going to be the same sort of gathering in windsor, because in many ways you cannot help thinking that for the president of the united states, the winds are part of the visit is perhaps more important, certainly in terms of length, he is going to get some pageantry, he will be welcomed into the front quadrangle of the

castle, he will have a private lunch i think with the king, and then of course they will be discussing climate change, an issue close to the heart of both men. ifeel they must be getting very close now because the helicopters are getting... because the helicopters are getting- - -— because the helicopters are reattin... . ,~ ., ., . getting... yes, they are advancing. you talk about _ getting... yes, they are advancing. you talk about him _ getting... yes, they are advancing. you talk about him beating - getting... yes, they are advancing. you talk about him beating king . you talk about him beating king charles, but he did not actually attend his coronation? h0. charles, but he did not actually attend his coronation?- charles, but he did not actually attend his coronation? no, he didn't and i think there _ attend his coronation? no, he didn't and i think there were _ attend his coronation? no, he didn't and i think there were some - attend his coronation? no, he didn't and i think there were some in - and i think there were some in britain who thought this was a frightful slight and showing some unpleasantness going back to 1776, or something withjoe biden being so proud of his irish heritage, i think that protocol is that american presidents do not attend the coronations of english grounds, so i think maybe a bit much was made about it, but it is interesting that on his way to the nato summit in vilnius. 0h, hang on, there we go. there is the beast itself. and...

you can see there... officials, and the car has just stopped at the front of the street, the security services. , . , . , , services. the secret service guys eat out services. the secret service guys get out ahead — services. the secret service guys get out ahead of— services. the secret service guys get out ahead of the _ services. the secret service guys get out ahead of the president. i services. the secret service guys . get out ahead of the president. yes, the have get out ahead of the president. yes, they have to — get out ahead of the president. yes, they have to because _ get out ahead of the president. yes, they have to because the same, one of them is a dummy? fline they have to because the same, one of them is a dummy?— they have to because the same, one of them is a dummy? one of them is a dumm . of them is a dummy? one of them is a dummy- so — of them is a dummy? one of them is a dummy- so you _ of them is a dummy? one of them is a dummy. so you have _ of them is a dummy? one of them is a dummy. so you have to _ of them is a dummy? one of them is a dummy. so you have to guess - of them is a dummy? one of them is a dummy. so you have to guess which i dummy. so you have to guess which one is the dummy _ dummy. so you have to guess which one is the dummy car, _ dummy. so you have to guess which one is the dummy car, and - dummy. so you have to guess which one is the dummy car, and it - one is the dummy car, and it will soon become clear.— soon become clear. that is 'ust about the�* soon become clear. that is 'ust about the only i soon become clear. that is 'ust about the only way i soon become clear. that is 'ust about the only way of i soon become clear. that isjust about the only way of knowing. j soon become clear. that isjust - about the only way of knowing. there ou can about the only way of knowing. there you can see — about the only way of knowing. there you can see if — about the only way of knowing. there you can see if you _ about the only way of knowing. there you can see if you are _ about the only way of knowing. there you can see if you are just _ about the only way of knowing. there you can see if you are justjoining us here on bbc news, president biden hasjust arrived into downing street in his presidential car, the beast. but as rob and i were saying, there is always two of them, so it is a bit of a guessing game to see which one of the two will either pull up or whether he willjust walk out from where he is. we can see the secret service outside, and i presume, rob, he will be greeted at the doorstep by the prime minister,

is that how it will work? i the doorstep by the prime minister, is that how it will work?— is that how it will work? i would have thought — is that how it will work? i would have thought so, _ is that how it will work? i would have thought so, that _ is that how it will work? i would have thought so, that is - is that how it will work? i would i have thought so, that is normally, thatis have thought so, that is normally, that is the reason why all the photographers are here, and people can't see that because we are concentrating on the beast, but there is an astonishing gathering of photographers, normally it is fairly quiet in downing street and the shot that they are here for is when president biden makes his way out of the car, eventually, and the door opens, that is why the snappers are here. �* ., ., here. and the other thing that we haven't really _ here. and the other thing that we haven't really discussed, - here. and the other thing that we haven't really discussed, but - here. and the other thing that we haven't really discussed, but it i here. and the other thing that we haven't really discussed, but it is| haven't really discussed, but it is often talked about in these visits, is the dynamics, personal dynamics, between the two leaders, the visiting leader and the host. how do you think the two get on, on a personal level? we have talked about this earlier in the day, but when prime minister sue knight was announced as prime minister, resident biden could not even say his name properly, so, things have evolved since then, haven't they?

they have, or i can tell you is what sources tell us, which is that the two men have a very professional relationship. and that it is obviously much easier than the relationship betweenjoe biden and borisjohnson. and briefly, with liz truss. in many ways, they are very different men, there is a massive age difference and i guess there is something of an ideological difference, if you think about it, one of the distinctive features of joe biden's president xi right now is the huge state intervention in terms of the transition to green technology, and rishi sunak is much more, at least in principle, much more, at least in principle, much more of a small state conservative, believes that the state should not believes that the state should not be meddling in anything that it absolutely does not need to be. the white house press corps, the travelling press, theyjust run up to the street out of their vans, you have been part of that press corps before, which always gives us a sign

that perhaps we might soon in the next few minutes see president biden now exiting his vehicle, which everyone he is in. is he travelling with the first lady as well? i everyone he is in. is he travelling with the first lady as well? i can't see. i with the first lady as well? i can't see- i would _ with the first lady as well? i can't see. i would imagine _ with the first lady as well? i can't see. i would imagine if— with the first lady as well? i can't see. i would imagine if there i with the first lady as well? i can't see. i would imagine if there was | see. i would imagine if there was any chance of a visit to windsor castle... but i don't know. of course it's worth remembering that president biden's wife was there for the coronation, so while he wasn't there, she certainly was. it is interesting, it is bringing back memories seeing the pool racing into place. because by and large, the president won't get out until the appropriate journalists are in place. and i think, here he comes. speaking of the president, he has now left the car. and the two of them are... you can see prime minister sunak as well standing on the doorstep of no 10, red carpet

there. and there is the handshake. and that is it. in their go. it is about 10.40 now, and we are told that their talks will only last about 45 minutes or so, so it is a very short trip to downing street, isn't it? it very short trip to downing street, isn't it? . , very short trip to downing street, isn't it? , , , ., very short trip to downing street, isn't it? . , . ., j isn't it? it is very short. by the wa , if isn't it? it is very short. by the way. if anyone _ isn't it? it is very short. by the way, if anyone is _ isn't it? it is very short. by the way, if anyone is wondering i isn't it? it is very short. by the i way, if anyone is wondering what were all those shouts? that was the press photographers that i've been mentioning, they were, like, sir, sir, give us a wave, give us something!— sir, give us a wave, give us something! sir, give us a wave, give us somethina! . , . ., , ., , . something! u.s. secretary of state blinken, something! u.s. secretary of state blinken. as — something! u.s. secretary of state blinken, as well _ something! u.s. secretary of state blinken, as well as _ something! u.s. secretary of state blinken, as well as those - something! u.s. secretary of state blinken, as well as those other i blinken, as well as those other people, coming as part of that delegation. because of course the us president travels with a bit of an

entourage at times, so that is quite significant as well to see the other people that are now entering after that handshake has taken place. and of course, they will then all head to the nato summit.— of course, they will then all head to the nato summit. yes, obviously, these are key _ to the nato summit. yes, obviously, these are key parts _ to the nato summit. yes, obviously, these are key parts of— to the nato summit. yes, obviously, these are key parts of president i these are key parts of president biden's national security team, foreign policy team. and absolutely, there is no doubt that the focus of this week is on president biden, the united states and the other nato allies would want to come out of it with a united image to the world that nato will stand by ukraine for as long as it takes, whatever other disagreements they may have on exactly what ammunition to provide or exactly when and how ukraine should join their reliance. rab. or exactly when and how ukraine should join their reliance. should 'oin their reliance. rob, is there should join their reliance. rob, is there any more _ should join their reliance. rob, is there any more that _ should join their reliance. rob, is there any more that you - should join their reliance. rob, is there any more that you have i should join their reliance. rob, is i there any more that you have heard from no 10 about the mechanics of what happens? is itjust a straight talk, there is no time for lunch because then he goes off to windsor, is that right?—

is that right? yes, no time for lunch. what _ is that right? yes, no time for lunch. what normally - is that right? yes, no time forj lunch. what normally happens is that right? yes, no time for i lunch. what normally happens at these kind of meetings, even when there is a large team like this, is that you have a very swift runthrough of what are the key things that you want to keep an on this week. it will be one imagines primarily on the nato summit, from the united front about russia, but no doubt they will talk about bilateral issues, including downing street says the agreement that was reached injune, the at mantic declaration about co—operation between the us and the uk. but let's not be na ve. they are only meeting for 40 minutes, not be na ve. they are only meeting for40 minutes, it not be na ve. they are only meeting for 40 minutes, it is pretty fleeting, and there is clearly a limit to what you can achieve in such a short time.— limit to what you can achieve in such a short time. that it was quite si a nificant such a short time. that it was quite significant that _ such a short time. that it was quite significant that we _ such a short time. that it was quite significant that we saw _ such a short time. that it was quite significant that we saw secretary i significant that we saw secretary blinken also go in, so it is a short meeting but he is travelling with some serious colleagues there, really wants to do some business? yes, the main players in us foreign policy, they are all in there, be in no doubt. so, absolutely, this is the top team, this is the a—team,

and that is because as far as the united states is concerned, along with the whole issue of how it manages its relationship with china, for the us, still the most powerful country in the face of the, the war in ukraine, relations with russia, are the other big issue, so, absolutely no surprise that the a—team is there and travelling around with the president. star; a-team is there and travelling around with the president. stay with us while those _ around with the president. stay with us while those talks _ around with the president. stay with us while those talks go _ around with the president. stay with us while those talks go on _ around with the president. stay with us while those talks go on but i around with the president. stay with us while those talks go on but for. us while those talks go on but for now, thank you very much. so, as we saw, president biden has arrived at downing street, he shook hands with prime minister soon at on the steps, on the red carpet that had been laid out, they have now gone in for talks, president biden arrived with other seniorfigures including talks, president biden arrived with other senior figures including the us secretary of state antony blinken. i am us secretary of state antony blinken. iam nowjoined us secretary of state antony blinken. i am nowjoined down the line by sophia ramirez, who is the head of foreign policy at policy exchange, which is a centre—right think—tank. thank you very much for joining us this morning. think-tank. thank you very much for joining us this morning.— joining us this morning. thanks for havina

joining us this morning. thanks for having me- — joining us this morning. thanks for having me. what _ joining us this morning. thanks for having me. what do _ joining us this morning. thanks for having me. what do you _ joining us this morning. thanks for having me. what do you think- joining us this morning. thanks for having me. what do you think is i joining us this morning. thanks for. having me. what do you think is the most important point about this trip, what do you think is the biggest desire from both sides, when it comes to this meeting? i biggest desire from both sides, when it comes to this meeting?— it comes to this meeting? i think there are quite _ it comes to this meeting? i think there are quite a _ it comes to this meeting? i think there are quite a few— it comes to this meeting? i think there are quite a few different i there are quite a few different priorities— there are quite a few different priorities here, not least of all this is— priorities here, not least of all this is a — priorities here, not least of all this is a meeting taking place just as both _ this is a meeting taking place just as both leaders are about to set off for the _ as both leaders are about to set off for the nato summit. as both leaders are about to set off forthe nato summit. i as both leaders are about to set off for the nato summit. i think there obviously— for the nato summit. i think there obviously have been some disagreements that have come out in the media _ disagreements that have come out in the media over recent weeks about various— the media over recent weeks about various aspects of nato, whether that is— various aspects of nato, whether that is its— various aspects of nato, whether that is its leadership for the type of munitions we're providing to ukraine — of munitions we're providing to ukraine. and i think this visit is really— ukraine. and i think this visit is really important injust ukraine. and i think this visit is really important in just solidifying this really strong core of the special— this really strong core of the special alliance at the heart of nato~ — special alliance at the heart of nato. and certainly i think it is also _ nato. and certainly i think it is also marking a real turning, some real momentum gathering in the special— real momentum gathering in the special relationship after, after a bit of—

special relationship after, after a bit of a _ special relationship after, after a bit of a slow start, it does feel as though— bit of a slow start, it does feel as though the — bit of a slow start, it does feel as though the wheels are now in motion and both— though the wheels are now in motion and both sides are working together much _ and both sides are working together much more — and both sides are working together much more productively, so i think there _ much more productively, so i think there is— much more productively, so i think there is no— much more productively, so i think there is no shortage of issues on there is no shortage of issues on the agenda. climate will be another bil the agenda. climate will be another big one. _ the agenda. climate will be another big one, but i think the symbolic value _ big one, but i think the symbolic value of— big one, but i think the symbolic value of this trip is reallyjust saying — value of this trip is reallyjust saying the uk and the us of stand shoulder— saying the uk and the us of stand shoulder to shoulder going into nato. _ shoulder to shoulder going into nato, and whatever media reports we will be _ nato, and whatever media reports we will be seeing at the heart of it, we want — will be seeing at the heart of it, we want to— will be seeing at the heart of it, we want to make sure that we are 'ust we want to make sure that we are just absolutely watertight on this and everybody knows it.- just absolutely watertight on this and everybody knows it. there has been a lot that _ and everybody knows it. there has been a lot that has _ and everybody knows it. there has been a lot that has been _ and everybody knows it. there has been a lot that has been made i and everybody knows it. there has been a lot that has been made in i and everybody knows it. there has i been a lot that has been made in the last few days, sophie, about the differences between the two countries in terms of sending cluster munitions to ukraine, what a gimmick of that?— gimmick of that? certainly, there are differences. _ gimmick of that? certainly, there are differences. the _ gimmick of that? certainly, there are differences. the allies - gimmick of that? certainly, there are differences. the allies have i are differences. the allies have been _ are differences. the allies have been working together in extraordinary ways in the defence of ukraine. _ extraordinary ways in the defence of ukraine, let's not forget that the baseline — ukraine, let's not forget that the baseline is very strong. but it has also been — baseline is very strong. but it has also been fascinated different national distinctions and views about— national distinctions and views about how and when and why we should

be supporting ukraine. and certainly ithink— be supporting ukraine. and certainly i think the _ be supporting ukraine. and certainly i think the question about the provisions of arms and munitions has been _ provisions of arms and munitions has been a _ provisions of arms and munitions has been a hot _ provisions of arms and munitions has been a hot topic since the beginning, of course we had questions about the willingness of different— questions about the willingness of different parties to send different supplies, whether that is tanks, fighter— supplies, whether that is tanks, fighterjets, we have had germany, france. _ fighterjets, we have had germany, france. in — fighterjets, we have had germany, france, in question, just what has happened — france, in question, just what has happened in the past week has been this question around cluster munitions, and this is quite a different— munitions, and this is quite a different question for the uk, as opposed — different question for the uk, as opposed to the united states, because — opposed to the united states, because we are actually signed up to an international treaty that prevents the use of these in war. whereas— prevents the use of these in war. whereas the united states is not. so ithink— whereas the united states is not. so i think that _ whereas the united states is not. so i think that while we do have a very strong _ i think that while we do have a very strong baseline between the allies, it is important to remember that even _ it is important to remember that even though nato is working so harmoniously together, it is a collection— harmoniously together, it is a collection of individual nations, and they— collection of individual nations, and they all do have different approaches to warfare, and that is 'ust approaches to warfare, and that is just coming out here in these sorts

of stories— just coming out here in these sorts of stories that we are getting in the media. but i do think at the end of the _ the media. but i do think at the end of the day— the media. but i do think at the end of the day the uk is working for the same _ of the day the uk is working for the same outcomes as the united states in ukraine. _ same outcomes as the united states in ukraine, and i think certainly with— in ukraine, and i think certainly withthe— in ukraine, and i think certainly with the recent coup that we had, attempted coup, on putin last week, i'm attempted coup, on putin last week, i'm sure _ attempted coup, on putin last week, i'm sure the — attempted coup, on putin last week, i'm sure the americans have been looking _ i'm sure the americans have been looking for— i'm sure the americans have been looking for ways that ukraine can -ain looking for ways that ukraine can gain tactical advantage, i would be looking _ gain tactical advantage, i would be looking at— gain tactical advantage, i would be looking at this cluster munitions announcement within that context. talked _ announcement within that context. talked about having differences, what _ talked about having differences, what about what might unfold at the nato summit, there is a conversation when _ nato summit, there is a conversation when weather ukraine should be admitted — when weather ukraine should be admitted to nato? certainly, and again— admitted to nato? certainly, and again this — admitted to nato? certainly, and again this is an issue of which there — again this is an issue of which there are _ again this is an issue of which there are quite a few different pinions— there are quite a few different pinions in— there are quite a few different pinions in the alliance certainly those — pinions in the alliance certainly those who are concerned about brought — those who are concerned about brought to nato right now, obvious that that _ brought to nato right now, obvious that that would actually bring the

frontline — that that would actually bring the frontline for nato right up to russia's— frontline for nato right up to russia's border and that is not a question— russia's border and that is not a question of— russia's border and that is not a question of provocation, it is a question— question of provocation, it is a question of provocation, it is a question of practicality. we have an article _ question of practicality. we have an article 5_ question of practicality. we have an article 5 component of nato which makes _ article 5 component of nato which makes clear that if one is attacked that is— makes clear that if one is attacked that is seen as an attack on all. that— that is seen as an attack on all. that would _ that is seen as an attack on all. that would mean that all other nato member— that would mean that all other nato member countries are required to mobilise — member countries are required to mobilise in — member countries are required to mobilise in support. and of course we are _ mobilise in support. and of course we are giving enormous amounts of arms— we are giving enormous amounts of arms and _ we are giving enormous amounts of arms and training ukrainian soldiers but we _ arms and training ukrainian soldiers but we do _ arms and training ukrainian soldiers but we do not have troops there on the frontline and that has been quite _ the frontline and that has been quite a — the frontline and that has been quite a clear dividing line. and i think— quite a clear dividing line. and i think a — quite a clear dividing line. and i think a lot — quite a clear dividing line. and i think a lot of the nato leaders are aware _ think a lot of the nato leaders are aware that— think a lot of the nato leaders are aware that their populations are a bit reticent to get involved in wars. — bit reticent to get involved in wars, military intervention, conflict. _ wars, military intervention, conflict, so, there is a lot of political— conflict, so, there is a lot of political questions around that decision _ political questions around that decision. i think what we will see from _ decision. i think what we will see from the — decision. i think what we will see from the summit is moving much closer— from the summit is moving much closer to — from the summit is moving much closer to more concrete security guarantees or agreements for ukraine . so, guarantees or agreements for ukraine ~ so. not— guarantees or agreements for ukraine . so, not moving towards membership

but potentially a pathway to maybe ship, but potentially a pathway to maybe ship. and _ but potentially a pathway to maybe ship, and in the meantimejust really— ship, and in the meantimejust really putting down in paper that nato _ really putting down in paper that nato has — really putting down in paper that nato has a steadfast commitment to ukraine _ nato has a steadfast commitment to ukraine and as long as it is under direct— ukraine and as long as it is under direct material threat in the way that it _ direct material threat in the way that it is. — direct material threat in the way that it is, that it can count on the nato _ that it is, that it can count on the nato allies— that it is, that it can count on the nato allies to have its back. and so-hia, nato allies to have its back. and sophia. it _ nato allies to have its back. and sophia. it is _ nato allies to have its back. and sophia. it is a — nato allies to have its back. and sophia, it is a very _ nato allies to have its back. fific sophia, it is a very brief meeting, less than an hour, how much do you think can realistically be achieved? i mean, not a think can realistically be achieved? i mean, nota huge amount think can realistically be achieved? i mean, not a huge amount in terms of wading— i mean, not a huge amount in terms of wading through the substance of the policy, but i think it's really important — the policy, but i think it's really important to know that whenever you have these _ important to know that whenever you have these bilateral meetings, there is a huge _ have these bilateral meetings, there is a huge amount of work that goes on in _ is a huge amount of work that goes on in the _ is a huge amount of work that goes on in the civil service, behind the scenes. _ on in the civil service, behind the scenes. for— on in the civil service, behind the scenes, for weeks and even months beforehand, so when they are coming into that _ beforehand, so when they are coming into that room in some ways they are really— into that room in some ways they are really focusing on the personal relationship and making sure that that is— relationship and making sure that that is warm and that they really understand how each other is thinking. _ understand how each other is

thinking, the domestic pressures that each— thinking, the domestic pressures that each other is facing, what are the key— that each other is facing, what are the key priorities that will take them — the key priorities that will take them up — the key priorities that will take them up to the next meeting. but also them up to the next meeting. but alsqust_ them up to the next meeting. but alsojust trying to them up to the next meeting. but also just trying to get that quick si-n also just trying to get that quick sign off— also just trying to get that quick sign off and buying things when you need something to be unlocked. so it is important — need something to be unlocked. so it is important to know that while this meeting _ is important to know that while this meeting will be relatively brief in length _ meeting will be relatively brief in length and of course the president will be _ length and of course the president will be going to meet with the king later and _ will be going to meet with the king later and have a more substantive discussion. — later and have a more substantive discussion, but biden and sunak have met guite _ discussion, but biden and sunak have met quite a _ discussion, but biden and sunak have met quite a lot recently, so i think 'ust met quite a lot recently, so i think just to _ met quite a lot recently, so i think just to see — met quite a lot recently, so i think just to see this as part of a series of the _ just to see this as part of a series of the past — just to see this as part of a series of the past five or six meetings they— of the past five or six meetings they have — of the past five or six meetings they have had in pretty short succession, so, ithink they have had in pretty short succession, so, i think this is more touching _ succession, so, i think this is more touching base and just making sure they can _ touching base and just making sure they can unlock a couple of crucial things— they can unlock a couple of crucial things rather than sitting down, pen and paper— things rather than sitting down, pen and paper out, trying to work through— and paper out, trying to work through the policy substance. and so . hia, through the policy substance. and sophia. we _ through the policy substance. fific sophia, we have just heard from the white house, it must have been, that president biden has described his

relationship with prime minister sunak as rock solid. you were talking about how strong that partnership is, and you say that they've met on a number of occasions, how would you describe as an observer of the two nations the personal dynamics between the two men? i personal dynamics between the two men? ~ . ., , , ., ,, men? i think certainly when sunak first came into _ men? i think certainly when sunak first came into no _ men? i think certainly when sunak first came into no 10 _ men? i think certainly when sunak first came into no 10 i _ men? i think certainly when sunak first came into no 10 i think- men? i think certainly when sunak first came into no 10 i think there | first came into no 10 i think there was a _ first came into no 10 i think there was a bit — first came into no 10 i think there was a bit of— first came into no 10 i think there was a bit of consternation because of course — was a bit of consternation because of course there had been a huge amount— of course there had been a huge amount of— of course there had been a huge amount of people in downing street over the _ amount of people in downing street over the previous months and i think there _ over the previous months and i think there was— over the previous months and i think there was a — over the previous months and i think there was a little bit of trepidation of thinking, how long is this guy— trepidation of thinking, how long is this guy going to stick around? i think— this guy going to stick around? i think that — this guy going to stick around? i think that has very much moved away quite quickly because i think it was clear— quite quickly because i think it was clear that — quite quickly because i think it was clear that the prime minister would be governing is a very serious, pragmatic— be governing is a very serious, pragmatic leader who is focused on the policy— pragmatic leader who is focused on the policy substance and also on the relationship building. sol the policy substance and also on the relationship building. so i think guite _ relationship building. so i think quite quickly and particularly around — quite quickly and particularly around the windsor framework, the conversations around that, they became — conversations around that, they became convinced quite quickly that this was— became convinced quite quickly that this was a _ became convinced quite quickly that this was a serious prime minister who wanted to get things done and

was very— who wanted to get things done and was very much not going to be focused — was very much not going to be focused on the politics, you know, andthrowing red meat to the tabloids so on _ andthrowing red meat to the tabloids so on and _ andthrowing red meat to the tabloids so on and more aboutjust making sure that — so on and more aboutjust making sure that things are moving forward behind _ sure that things are moving forward behind the — sure that things are moving forward behind the scenes. so, biden certainly— behind the scenes. so, biden certainly watched the way that sunak has approached the eu relationship and that— has approached the eu relationship and that pragmatism there and was very pleased by that and certainly i think— very pleased by that and certainly i think he _ very pleased by that and certainly i think he has been impressed by what the uk _ think he has been impressed by what the uk side _ think he has been impressed by what the uk side has been bringing to the table. _ the uk side has been bringing to the table, looking for opportunities to work— table, looking for opportunities to work much — table, looking for opportunities to work much more closely together in terms _ work much more closely together in terms of— work much more closely together in terms of economic investment, trade and also _ terms of economic investment, trade and also things like climate, which is extremely important to biden. and ithink— is extremely important to biden. and i think it's _ is extremely important to biden. and i think it's really sick that on some — i think it's really sick that on some of— i think it's really sick that on some of the issues that are really important — some of the issues that are really important to biden but where he will be distinguishing himself in the presidential campaign next year, he's actually much more aligned with the uk _ he's actually much more aligned with the uk position, so come on things like climate — the uk position, so come on things like climate and support for ukraine _ like climate and support for ukraine. so i think in some ways he has been _ ukraine. so i think in some ways he has been on — ukraine. so i think in some ways he has been on a bit of a journey and

come _ has been on a bit of a journey and come to— has been on a bit of a journey and come to realise that it is actually quite _ come to realise that it is actually quite beneficial for him to be out there _ quite beneficial for him to be out there on— quite beneficial for him to be out there on the world stage with a world _ there on the world stage with a world leader who can stand up and say guite _ world leader who can stand up and say quite credibly that these things are important to him. stay say quite credibly that these things are important to him.— are important to him. stay with us but we are — are important to him. stay with us but we are just — are important to him. stay with us but we are just going _ are important to him. stay with us but we are just going to _ are important to him. stay with us but we are just going to bring i are important to him. stay with us but we are just going to bring you | but we are just going to bring you some pictures that have come into us of the two leaders, they can see them in the garden behind me at downing street. they are having a cup of tea. rob watson alp little correspondentjoking earlier that the visit is so short, that is about all they will have time for. there having a chat. we heard that president biden described the relationship he has with prime ministers sunak as rock solid. and this comesjust ministers sunak as rock solid. and this comes just weeks after rishi sunak was in washington dc, we saw the two of them seated by side by side in that case in the oval office, this time as you can see there, these pictures that have just come into us from downing street joined the two leaders, it is a very nice day here in downing street, so,

they are meeting outdoors for their talks, and top of the agenda, of course, is the ongoing war in ukraine. both leaders well of course be heading to the nato summit in vilnius, so this is a bit of a pitstop for president biden. and he is going to come then, after his talks in downing street, be heading to windsor castle, where he will meet king charles. sophia i think is still with us. tell us about the meeting with king charles, climate change expected to dominate those talks? ., ~ ., ~' change expected to dominate those talks? ., ~ ., ~ , , ., talks? you know, i think this is a very important — talks? you know, i think this is a very important meeting - talks? you know, i think this is a very important meeting because| talks? you know, i think this is a i very important meeting because of course this is a sort of state visit, he is meeting the head of state, quite unusual here in the uk in that of course we have the prime minister as the head of government and then we've got the king as the head of state, but our king is not just an entirely ceremonial

position, we understand the role of the monarchy as being very significantly in our international diplomacy and actually in terms of british soft power. so i think this meeting is sort of ceremonial and symbolic but it is also actually getting quite significantly into policy substance. so, what is interesting about this is not only will the king and the president be there, but there will also be grant shapps and john kerry, the us climate csar, altogether, getting into the policy substance around climate co—operation. i do think that biden sees the uk is a very important ally in this broader question about climate change and the diplomacy behind it, so, how do we get all states of all different sizes and different stages of development on board? this is obviously an issue of huge personal significance for the king and i

think he does have that credibility and legitimacy to the point where it is important for biden's global image to be seen to be actually rubbing shoulders with the king. so i think it is one of those mutually beneficial meetings that works in policy substance but also in political terms and symbolic terms, so, it will be really interesting to see what we get out of that, i am looking forward to the readouts on both sides and particularly what kind of concrete commitments that we might see, being very aware that of course, president biden will soon be going into the cycle of another election campaign. we can imagine that climate is going to be a really significant component of that. so, the stakes could not be higher. indeed, sophia gaston, from policy exchange kova thank you very much

forjoining us. prime minister sunak and president biden having tea in the garden at downing street, and the garden at downing street, and the presidential car, the beast, is parked up in the distance there. while those talks continue. as they continue, i am joined while those talks continue. as they continue, iamjoined by while those talks continue. as they continue, i am joined by adam while those talks continue. as they continue, iam joined by adam payne, political editor of politics home. adam, what do you think can be achieved in such a short space of time, or is this more about the optics? time, or is this more about the o atics? . ., time, or is this more about the o atics? , ., ., ., optics? there is no getting around it, it is a optics? there is no getting around it. it is a very _ optics? there is no getting around it, it is a very short _ optics? there is no getting around it, it is a very short meeting, i optics? there is no getting around it, it is a very short meeting, 45 i it, it is a very short meeting, 45 minutes to an hour in the garden, it really is a fleeting visit for the president before he meets the king. of course he wasn't here for the coronation, and then he goes off like other world leaders to lithuania for nato. so i don't think in regards to substance we should expect huge outcomes from this meeting, but it will be the latest

example and we have seen it already from downing street and the white house of demonstrating that the us-uk house of demonstrating that the us—uk relationship, the special relationship, as it is off and described, is in a positive, healthy state, and of course this is the sixth time that sunak has met with biden since becoming prime minister, and that is a lot, for two world leaders to have that number of meetings in just a leaders to have that number of meetings injust a number of months. so i think while the pair might not be best friends, they might not have a huge amount in common, they have got a very professional relationship and i am sure the two sides will point to the meeting today as the latest example of that healthy, positive, constructive and close friendship speaking of that, we did hear that president biden described his relationship with prime minister sunak as rock solid. this his relationship with prime minister sunak as rock solid.— sunak as rock solid. this all comes da s after sunak as rock solid. this all comes days after we _ sunak as rock solid. this all comes days after we did _ sunak as rock solid. this all comes days after we did see _ sunak as rock solid. this all comes days after we did see some - days after we did see some differences in approach when it comes to sending arms to ukraine. we've got the us saying that they are going to be sending cluster bombs to ukraine, we know that the

uk has signed up to an agreement that bans the use of them. hand uk has signed up to an agreement that bans the use of them.- uk has signed up to an agreement that bans the use of them. and it is not 'ust that bans the use of them. and it is not just the — that bans the use of them. and it is notjust the uk _ that bans the use of them. and it is not just the uk who _ that bans the use of them. and it is not just the uk who is _ that bans the use of them. and it is notjust the uk who is uneasy, i that bans the use of them. and it is not just the uk who is uneasy, a i notjust the uk who is uneasy, a part of this move, i believe new zealand, canada, some of the eu nations, oragainst zealand, canada, some of the eu nations, or against this move. the uk government and rishi sunak made this point last week is signed up to a convention which prohibits the use, the production and the promotion, i guess, of cluster bombs. why is that? cluster bombs are seen as causing a high level of threat to civilians, they cover a wide area and they can lie under 10-8 wide area and they can lie under 10—8 for a number of years as well. so while the optics are very friendly and positive and familial, if there is a point of contention, it is that issue about cluster bombs. it is worth saying that president biden said it was a very difficult decision, we took a lot of —— he took a lot of persuasion before making that call, but —— he took a lot of persuasion before making that call, but ultimately ukraine was short of ultimately ukraine was short of ammunition and that is why they made ammunition and that is why they made the decision. iterate the decision. iterate

ammunition and that is why they made the decision-— the decision. we talk about potential — ammunition and that is why they made the decision-— the decision. we talk about potential — the decision. we talk about potential differences, i the decision. we talk about i potential differences, another the decision. we talk about - potential differences, another one thatis the decision. we talk about potential differences, i the decision. we talk about i potential differences, another the decision. we talk about - potential differences, another one thatis potential differences, another one that is looming ahead of that nato potential differences, another one that is looming ahead of that nato summit is the question of whether summit is the question of whether and when ukraine should become a and when ukraine should become a member of nato? member of nato? whether ukraine can join nato, whether join nato, if whether ukraine canjoin nato, if so, when that happens. russia would so, when that happens. russia would see that as a provocative move by see that as a provocative move by nato, some governments are uneasy about it. that's will be on the uneasy nato, some governments are uneasy about it. that's will be on the agenda as well as a myriad of agenda as well as a myriad of issues. there is no shortage of about it. that's will be on the agenda there las a myriad of about it. that's will be on the agenda there is is a myriad of about it. that's will be on the agenda there is no myriad of things for these two leaders to about it. that's will be on the agenda there is no shortagef about it. that's will be on the agenda there is no 5 leaders f about it. that's will be on the agenda there is no 5 leaders to discuss in the 45—60 minutes they things for these two leaders to discuss in the 45—60 minutes they have. have. �*persuasion