welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. nicolas maduro has one key asset. durability. overthe asset. durability. over the past asset. durability. overthe past decade he has overseen a crumbling economy, hyper patient, widespread hunger and the exodus of a quarter of venezuela's population. yet he is still in power and the opposition�*s idea the creation of an alternative government has founded. next year they are supposed to be a presidential election. my guest is currently frontrunner among opposition candidates. does she have any realistic chance of toppling venezuela's strongman. welcome

to hardtalk. venezuela's strongman. welcome to hardtalk— to hardtalk. thank you very much, stephen, _ to hardtalk. thank you very much, stephen, it— to hardtalk. thank you very much, stephen, it is- to hardtalk. thank you very much, stephen, it is a - much, stephen, it is a pleasure. much, stephen, it is a pleasure-— much, stephen, it is a pleasure. much, stephen, it is a leasure. , ., ., ., , ., pleasure. great to heavy on the show. pleasure. great to heavy on the show for _ pleasure. great to heavy on the show. for years _ pleasure. great to heavy on the show. for years you _ pleasure. great to heavy on the show. for years you have - show. for years you have participating in democracy in venezuela under nicolas maduro's rule, is a grave mistake because it ends up legitimising nicolas maduro. outcome you have now decided to your hat in the ring and seek the nomination from the opposition, to fight the next year's presidential elections?

for years venezuela's people have been explaining to the world the way they have been rigging elections and turning down through control and repression, thejudiciary system, the national assembly, as well as the military at every single democratic institution. we have reached a point in which we realise he is willing to do anything to stay in power. the only way through which we can confront and defend him as building a huge, unprecedented social movement, citizen movement that is right now arousing and growing. finally the world has to understand this is a criminal system, much worse than a conventional dictatorship, and the only way we can stop migration, and this totalisation of democratic systems in other countries of the region is by transition to democracy. that requires strength, certainly, as well as

a company and support from democratic nations throughout the world. i democratic nations throughout the world. . , , the world. i am still puzzled as to why — the world. i am still puzzled as to why you _ the world. i am still puzzled as to why you think- the world. i am still puzzled as to why you think it - the world. i am still puzzled as to why you think it is - the world. i am still puzzled i as to why you think it is going to be possible for you to run in an election while nicolas maduro is still in power. you just described is what you see is all of the negatives about his control of your country, so, seeking to be the opposition candidate, is that a purely symbolic value, do you believe this election will never happen? it believe this election will never happen?— never happen? it is not symbolic. _ never happen? it is not symbolic, it _ never happen? it is not symbolic, it is - never happen? it is notj symbolic, it is realistic. never happen? it is not - symbolic, it is realistic. and it is growing in strength and support and hope. we are certainly not the same as we were years ago. we, the venezuelan people and the regime, it is important to understand nicolas maduro has sacked the country, not only the oil enterprises, and the rest of the economy has been destroyed, they have robbed

every single resource, and have our country totally in debt, debts they cannot pay, because no—one is going to invest in a country that is lost, lost in every single index of rule of law, in the world. they have right now huge problems, they have arms, certainly but their support of the regime on the basis and middle ranks of the armed forces and police is melting down because people in the military and in other groups, do have family, sisters, mothers, children that are also starving. over 9 million people in venezuela are under starvation right now. the regime is not the same, the world understands nicolas maduro is toxic.— world understands nicolas maduro is toxic. how credible are ou maduro is toxic. how credible are you as — maduro is toxic. how credible are you as the _ maduro is toxic. how credible are you as the woman - maduro is toxic. how credible are you as the woman to - maduro is toxic. how credible l are you as the woman to topple nicolas maduro when actually you have been banned from holding public office for 15

years? even if you were to win the nomination to represent the opposition, laterthis the nomination to represent the opposition, later this year, under venezuela's current balls, you could not run for president? —— current laws. the president? -- current laws. the auestion president? -- current laws. the question will — president? -- current laws. the question will be, _ president? —— current laws. ila: question will be, don't you think, that is proof of how much the regime fears facing us, facing me in the next year election. because actually, as you have said which all the opposition forces have accepted is going to primary process which has nothing to do with the regime or the institutions they control. it is a private process of democratic and citizen forces, in which every single venezuelan inside our country or abroad can participate. certainly, that exercise will provide us of a huge legitimacy to have, you know, a single voice, towards international community, around

a strong and robust strategy, how to face a regime and start overcoming every single obstacle. believe me, trying to disqualify me is just one of a large list of very tough obstacles we need to face, and overcome in order to have a free and fair election in venezuela. we are 18 months away from that day, though, and we do have time to build strength. we do have time to build strength-— we do have time to build strenuth. ., , , strength. one of the biggest obstacles you _ strength. one of the biggest obstacles you have - strength. one of the biggest obstacles you have got - strength. one of the biggest obstacles you have got is - obstacles you have got is actually sort of an act of self—harm, and that the opposition in venezuela has been deeply embarrassed and damaged by the failure of that political initiative launched byjohn glide go back and 2019 to offer up an alternative government, to say majuro is legitimate and i am the real leader of the venezuela. the americans back that idea and many countries in the west and

latin america but the whole thing ran out of steam. guido is now politically finished and it embarrassed the entire venezuelan opposition because it made you look incoherent. would you acknowledge that? let us say we have had several set backs that is true, you have to understand we are facing a criminal regime that is willing to do anything, to persecute, to do anything, to persecute, to blackmail, to go against families, and that is one of the reasons ucp will use to trust, in different sectors, not only politicians, but somehow, decide to abandon the fight. and it is type. i do not want tojudge anyone. fight. and it is type. i do not want to judge anyone. but that is white venezuelan people have in the last month somewhat, let's say, quieter, more calm, with a step back, but suddenly, with a step back, but suddenly, with the whole idea of the

primary process, venezuela has awakened. what we have seen in the last five months is impressive, we have not seen this before, i have been fighting against this regime for 20 years. fighting against this regime for 20 years-— fighting against this regime for 20 years. forgive me for interrupting. _ for 20 years. forgive me for interrupting, but _ for 20 years. forgive me for interrupting, but when - for 20 years. forgive me for interrupting, but when you i for 20 years. forgive me for i interrupting, but when you talk about this new move and mood in venezuela, i am thinking to myself, i visited your country several times, myself, i visited your country severaltimes, in myself, i visited your country several times, in 2014, 2017, we saw mass protest on the streets, hundreds of thousands of venezuelans demanding of venezuela ns demanding political change of venezuelans demanding political change in the into majuro's regime. we do not see those crowds today, you in the opposition are not mobilising ordinary venezuelans today, and the way that you did let's say, nine years ago or seven years ago? nine years ago or seven years ao? �* . ., , , ' ago? actually, it is different, ou are ago? actually, it is different, you are right- _ ago? actually, it is different, you are right. a _ ago? actually, it is different, you are right. a lot _ ago? actually, it is different, you are right. a lot of - ago? actually, it is different, you are right. a lot of peoplej you are right. a lot of people believe that 2024 might be their last chance to have their families back together. the

last chance now to lose whatever they have left, and their small businesses, or properties, even the last chance to stay in venezuela. this fight has turned onto a political one, and this fight has turned into a spiritual one. existential one. i have neverseen one. existential one. i have never seen something like this before, i have been on the streets for 23 years and you know that. i do think the regime is right because they know this is new, they are losing their grip on society, and social control through foot stamps and —— food stamps and money they give to people that behave well, they have lost their control on the base of their control on the base of the military. i do think it is going to be tough, i think the primary process should be care, taking care of the. i hope the international community understands the only way we can stop migration and the destruction of venezuela, is

through giving back hope, to our country, that we do have possibility, a way pave out through a democratic and pacific process, and i am committed to that. and we will go all the way regardless of what the regime does to me and all the people. we what the regime does to me and all the people-— all the people. we will get to the international _ all the people. we will get to the international community | all the people. we will get to . the international community and what you want to see from them and just a minute. another question about the internal politics of venezuelan. you have always been one of the most outspoken, one of the most radical, militant representatives of the opposition, that you have opposed dialogue with majuro, you want to see socialism completely dismantled, that has always been your position. there are others who have a different position. there are opposition leaders who agreed to go into a dialogue, negotiating process with nicholas majuro's people in mexico at the end of last year, it is supposed to be continuing

this year, right now it seems stuck. there are those in the opposition who think best way forward is to negotiate with majuro? do you agree? i do forward is to negotiate with majuro? do you agree? i do not discard negotiation _ majuro? do you agree? i do not discard negotiation at _ majuro? do you agree? i do not discard negotiation at this - discard negotiation at this point i want a negotiation when we can force a regime to move forward through a transition to democracy. i do not want a negotiation to have status quo in place which is what has happened in the last 15 initiatives of dialogue that has taken place in the last 20 years. we have to be very objective, what has been the outcome of these dialogues, majuro has gained legitimacy, money and time, which is at the end what they want, they do not care about venezuela and people dying. my point is we need to gain strength and legitimacy, to go into a true negotiation table, in which the people of venezuela can be sitting at that table and in which not a few representatives of the democratic sector, get what they want. once again, i

believe the primary process will be a unique opportunity to have that leadership legitimised so we can go into a new negotiation, in which we will be in a relative position stronger relative position in order to have true negotiations with the regime. you order to have true negotiations with the regime.— with the regime. you claim to seak with the regime. you claim to speak with — with the regime. you claim to speak with all _ with the regime. you claim to speak with all venezuelans i with the regime. you claim to l speak with all venezuelans but let us remember your background stopping you come from an elite family, yourfather one —— ran one of the biggest steel companies in venezuela before the socialist revolution. you are educated partly in the united states and have travelled all over the world. most of venezuelans right now are experiencing profound poverty, suffering real hungry a quarter of the population has fled from venezuela. do you think you really understand ordinary venezuelans especially when you say your solution for venezuelan is a thatcherite, free market capitalism in which

you even want to see the oil industry in your country completely privatised? do you think ordinary venezuelans really agree with you on that sort of thing?— really agree with you on that sort of thing? absolutely, over 20 ears sort of thing? absolutely, over 20 years of _ sort of thing? absolutely, over 20 years of socialism - sort of thing? absolutely, over 20 years of socialism has - 20 years of socialism has turned venezuela into a country that desires to have prosperity, to have open markets, respect for private property and dignity. mainly, dignity. that you can leave and succeed with your work and live with dignity. you can have employment, that gives you the possibility of living well. that obsession are providing our country —— of dividing our country into black and white, rich and poor, the past and the present, has turned down. we are citizens we all want the same, we want to have our families together and our kids back home, we want to have a country we can live with

respect and recognise each other in our pleura —— in our plurality which is essential to democracy is. this is essential because for the first time in our history, yes we are proposing a vision of the development of venezuela which has the family at the centre. with this —— not the state on top of us. venezuelan is willing to embrace this possibility, especially with the poor and the young. i do the poor and the young. i do want to be — the poor and the young. i do want to be a _ the poor and the young. i do want to be a little _ the poor and the young. i do want to be a little personal with you, you have talked about your own family, you have three children and all of them are currently living outside of venezuelan. ijust currently living outside of venezuelan. i just wonder when you talk about the millions of venezuelans who fled from the country, whether you, given you are separated from your own children, whether you really think right now, it is worth staying in venezuela, and fighting nicholas majuro politically?

it is absolutely worth it, and i'm sure that one day, when we look back, we will agree with that. a few days ago, a woman told me, she told me, you are the only instrument i have left to bring my kids back, and i looked at her back, and i said, you are the only one i have to bring my own. so this is very profound, this is very powerful, and even though i sometimes feel very guilty that i have not been with my children in very important moments of their lives, i have been banned from leaving venezuela for over ten years, i'm sure they realise we're doing this for them, because i want them to all as well as the rest of venezuela, old and youngin rest of venezuela, old and young in venezuela to live in a country they can feel proud of. earlier you are saying you are looking to the international

community in your support to get free and fair elections, genuine democracy, to ask —— to venezuela. how disappointed are you that the tide seems to be running against you and in favour of nicolas maduro, particularly in your home region, latin america, with a host of new leftist leaders in power in key governments across the region, and leaders who are expressing a much warmer, more sympathetic feeling towards nicolas maduro and his socialist government? we have to understand _ socialist government? we have to understand that _ socialist government? we have to understand that nicolas - to understand that nicolas maduro is kind of alone in this process. he has a wide range of relations with criminal networks that go from drug cartels to gorilla groups, terrorist groups in the middle east. ., terrorist groups in the middle east. . ., ., ., , east. hang on, i have to stop ou, east. hang on, i have to stop you. ms — east. hang on, i have to stop you, ms machado, _ east. hang on, i have to stop you, ms machado, i'm - east. hang on, i have to stop you, ms machado, i'm not i you, ms machado, i'm not talking about shady characters

and criminal networks. i'm talking about a new generation of democratically elected leaders across latin america. for example, just a month or two ago president lula in brazil expressed his much warmer feelings towards nicolas maduro. we've got the colombian president gustavo petro, who seems to be much less inclined to support the venezuelan opposition and much readier to do deals with nicolas maduro. all i'm saying is the regional environment has changed, and not in a way that favours you. let me get there, because that's how it looks right now, but it's important to understand that nicolas maduro's ties with russia, with putin, with iran are closer and more evident than ever. so those kind of let's say ideological supports that he might get from those you mentioned start to be questioned, just see what the president of chile adjusted a

few days ago, and say no, no, there are democratic and human rights huge violations in venezuela, which are a red line, so maduro's journey —— turning into a toxic lie and lula's attempt to embrace mid euro backfired on his own country, in his own congress —— to embrace maduro. so let's say these are geologically close presidents in the region will understand it is within their own interest to push maduro into a kind of transition, such as the one that we represent, in which we are willing to do an orderly and sustainable transition in which we will open to our whole society, and we will go through strong and serious negotiation process, in which maduro will understand it is the only opportunity he has left, and that his allies will supported as well into having

free and fair elections at the end of next year in venezuela. the thing is, you are trying to put a positive gloss on it, and you want to believe that international pressure is mounting on maduro, but surely the biggest problem you've got of all, in many ways, is in the united states, where it's quite clear that the era of so—called maximum pressure on venezuela has come to an end? the us, given its absolute preoccupation with the ukraine war, is looking to forge new energy ties, which may well include using venezuelan oil, but they also have indicated, and i'm quoting a us official who spokejust short and i'm quoting a us official who spoke just short time ago here, he said the biden administration does not want to keep sanctions on venezuela in perpetuity. the new atmosphere in washington is really not helping you at all, is it? trio. helping you at all, is it? no, it's not helping _ helping you at all, is it? no, it's not helping and - helping you at all, is it? iirr, it's not helping and perhaps a reason was they were very pessimistic because they

weren't seeing the possibility of a true change and maduro being defeated, but that has changed dramatically in the last months, especially in the last months, especially in the last weeks. no serious investment will come in a country where there is no rule of law and the only way venezuela can turn into that energy help of the americas is with our government, and that's precisely what we will do. so we need to align the interest of all stakeholders and make them understand that it is the greatest opportunity for everyone, creditors, bondholders, investors, and certainly the venezuelan people. so having this chance, this true chance to believe again there is a huge opportunity to defeat maduro next year, that this social movement is growing, that it will not be stopped, i hope and i believe that they will change the policies in certain countries that have lost faith in venezuela and it will come from us, the people. we will not be stopped. we will not be

disqualified, and we will not give up. we will fight until the end, and we will bring back democracy and families back together in venezuela. right. we almost — together in venezuela. right. we almost at _ together in venezuela. right. we almost at an _ together in venezuela. right. we almost at an end - together in venezuela. right. we almost at an end but - together in venezuela. right. we almost at an end but you| we almost at an end but you have just used a very interesting phrase, we, the venezuelan people, you just set. are you sure your interests truly align with the ordinary of venezuela? one last issue i want to put to you, sanctions, particularly the tough us sanctions on venezuela, you say they must be maintained, you do not want to see relaxation. many venezuelans say something very different. they are hurting, ordinary venezuelans, who are suffering terrible poverty anyway, and they would love to see a relaxation of sanctions. again, are you sure that your particular interest as an elite opposition leader, coincide with those of the venezuelan

people? with those of the venezuelan eo - le? ,, ., with those of the venezuelan --eole? ,, ., ., people? steven, i am a venezuelan _ people? steven, i am a venezuelan citizen. - people? steven, i am a venezuelan citizen. i i people? steven, i am a| venezuelan citizen. i do people? steven, i am a - venezuelan citizen. i do not divide people in any of those categories, which socialism does. unfortunately, this is something we all are venezuelan share right now. i am a venezuelan mother with my kids very far, and i want to ensure they all have the opportunity to grow in a free country that gives opportunity to all. and perhaps you should come soon and feel the magnitude of this energy growing. sanctions are a consequence of huge, you know, obscene violations of human rights, corruption and trafficking and should be used to pressure the regime to move forward in what we all venezuelan stream, which is to have a country where we can be back together, where we have respect where we have justice, and most of all we have dignity and most of all we have dignity and freedom. and that's what we represent today. so i am

confident that even though we have huge changes in the face of us, huge challenges, we've been preparing for over two decades for a moment in which we can put all of that talent and accumulated strength and experience, and the time has arrived, and this is the time, and we will do it right, and we will go until the end. we unfortunately _ will go until the end. we unfortunately have reached time on this interview. i have to end it there, but maria corina machado, it's been a pleasure talking to you. thanks for talking to you. thanks for talking to you. thanks for talking to me from caracas. thank you very much. hello.

we've had some big contrasts in our weather so far this year. blocked patterns, you might say. when they come along, they stay for quite some time. for example, february turned out to be the driest for 30 years. it was really quite persistent. but almost overnight, we changed the month and the weather changed. it was wet, the sixth wettest march on record. and then we've had those temperature contrasts through spring. it took a long time to see any warmth, mid—may onwards, really. and then once the heat really arrived, we had flaming june, the hottestjune on record here in the uk. and now we're in july we've changed the weather again. it's been very unsettled, temperatures around about average, and it looks set to stay for the next six to ten days, largely unsettled as well. we won't be without sunshine and some warmth, but with these low pressures close by, one just moving away towards thursday, another one hot on its heels. it's all, it's often down to the position of the jet stream. there's upper level winds that drive our weather systems. and right now they're driving

those low pressure systems in off the atlantic. so wednesday, again, will be another day of sunny spells and showers. frequent and heavy in northern and western parts, particularly scotland, northern ireland, northern england. a slight change in wind direction for england and wales, from the south—westerly breeze we've had in recent days to more of a westerly means we'lljust drop the humidity a little bit more, so fresher feel. but there will be with that breeze showers and heavy as they've been in recent days intense downpours with hail and thunder. they tend to ease a little bit through the night and temperatures will fall back to probably single figures in the countryside. certainly more comfortable nights for sleeping, i think, into wednesday and into thursday. but that low pressure is then starting to move back in off the atlantic. so thursday sees this brief bump of high pressure in southern areas, perhaps fewer showers and less heavy showers, but not further north. we're still close to the area of low pressure. the winds are lighter, so the showers are like to be really quite lengthy with some torrential downpours once again. lots of spray, lots of standing water to contend with on the faster routes in the coming days with those showers. and then it's a very brief ridge of high pressure

because by the time we get to friday, we've got this next low pressure winding itself up to bring us some more prolonged spell of heavy rain. and again, because there's some warmer air being drawn up from the tropics, it will really be quite heavy that rain, probably thundery as well. it'll be warm though and it looks quite windy too. and that then meanders its way slowly eastwards across the uk during the course of saturday. so the persistent rain spreads northwards. it gives way to heavy, frequent, showers coming around that area of low pressure, blowing in on that southerly wind. so at least it's a slightly warmer direction, once again, although probably not really the highest temperatures as you could see, because there'll be more cloud and a lot of showers. and there it is, as we go into the second part of the weekend. still with us, that low

pressure, it starts to briefly move out of the way on sunday. so perhaps fewer showers sunday. but again, it's low pressure that's dominating. we've got that westerly wind, so hit and miss. the devil really in the detail for the showers. but of course, as always with showers, there'll be some sunny and warm spells in between. what about into next week? well, there's that low pressure moving away, perhaps the ridge of high pressure close to southern areas, but always, i think, dominated by low pressure, particularly towards the north and further downpours.

abusive and menacing messages live from london, this is bbc news. nato leaders say ukraine can join the military alliance but refuse to give a timeframe, but refuse to give a timeframe, to the frustration to the frustration of president zelenskyy. new allegations are made against the bbc presenter accused of paying a teenager for explicit

photos, with claims that