it is it any of our business? there seems to be if you want to call it some questionable behaviour, is this merely a matter for the presenter, his conscience and family? the classic one, is it in the public interest or merely of interest to the public? for some of you there are legal aspects, moral aspects, ethical aspects... you there are legal aspects, moral aspects, ethicalaspects... is this aspects, ethicalaspects... is this a proxy war on the bbc by mr murdoch? summersaying a proxy war on the bbc by mr murdoch? summer saying that. the bbc themselves have broken one of the stories about the presenter, the bbc which you pay for, do they have a duty to you and for full disclosure? the star salaries came out yesterday. does his role, whatever it is at the bbc, mean open season? the right to know, against his right to anonymity or merely an unedifying appetite for the salacious? and the family at the heart of the original

allegations and the presenter�*s family. the question again, is it any of our business? get in touch. now for the news with al. more allegations have emerged about the unnamed bbc presenter, who's been accused of paying a teenager for explicit pictures. the sun newspaper says it's spoken to a 23 year—old, who says the presenter broke lockdown rules to meet them after they spoke on a dating app. the leaders of the g7 group of wealthy democracies are expected to announce a strategy for ukraine's security, when they meet later on the sidelines of a nato summit in lithuania. the strategy would provide more defence equipment and training exercises for ukraine's military. the bank of england has warned that the cost of mortgage payments will continue to rise.

in its bi—annualfinancial stability report the bank says the global economic outlook is "highly uncertain" with risks including continued high inflation. and a dispute about the estate of the soul singer, aretha franklin, has been resolved. a jury in the us state of michigan found that a handwritten note from 2014 is her valid will — over—riding a document from four years earlier. is this any of our business? quite a few texts yesterday saying a bsolutely few texts yesterday saying absolutely not. it is great to test public opinion on this, to see what our listeners and viewers think. let me just outline the latest allegations, the sun says he broke lockdown rules to meet a young

adult, and has spoken to someone else who say they receive what they describe as creepy messages from him when they were a teenager. the bbc story that he wanted to meet up with somebody and then they didn't and said they would reveal his name and social media and he sent them some abusive and threatening messages. it has been front page news for several days now, we've been talking about it, loads of you have been getting in touch to discuss it. outside of work, does it have any significance if it is not illegal? does it have any significant spice is any business of ours? or as a bbc presenter, you pay his large salary, full disclosure, is it right we have the details of all of this? do you want more details? do you want a name? classic public interest debate, is it in the public interest or is it merely of interest to the public? get in touch. we have a

media lawyer, privacy law with us. hello. welcome back. here we are again. it is an important one, this, and there are lots of aspects to it. and we have the founder of the pressure group falsely accused individuals for reform. hello, daniel. how are you? can hear you now. paul gilbert, it is a straight question, and i'm going to probably say several times. paul, question, and i'm going to probably say severaltimes. paul, is question, and i'm going to probably say several times. paul, is this any of our business? figs say several times. paul, is this any of our business?— of our business? as the situation currently stands, _ of our business? as the situation currently stands, no, _ of our business? as the situation currently stands, no, it _ of our business? as the situation currently stands, no, it is - of our business? as the situation currently stands, no, it is not. i currently stands, no, it is not. this is an issue for an employer in relation to alleged behaviour of its

employees. the matter being investigated, although i appreciate investigated, although i appreciate in the situation at the request of the police the bbc have stopped their investigation or pause their investigation cut in fact, there is no reason why they could not have continued their investigation, even though there was an ongoing police interest in what is going on, but as things currently stand that is where we are, and therefore there is no reason why the identity of this person should be revealed. what is interesting, when you look at the decisions on privacy of late, what the courts are very concerned about is the adverse impact of the reporting of the stories on the person, as well as anyone else that might be affected by the reporting of the story. and for that reason, the privacy law has been beefed up

over the last five years or so. and thatis over the last five years or so. and that is why currently we are where we are and we don't know who the name of the presenter, and quite rightly so. name of the presenter, and quite riahtl so. , , ., ~ rightly so. presenter breaking lockdown restrictions, - rightly so. presenter breaking lockdown restrictions, an - rightly so. presenter breaking - lockdown restrictions, an allegation about that. is that in the public interest because quite a few high—profile presenters and high—profile presenters and high—profile people where nabbed by the papers on that. and they were perhaps going on the radio and tv channels and saying this is the case, you mustn't do this, mustn't do that and then went ahead and did it. does that change anything, paul? i suppose if this had started with the story about a high—profile individual breaching lockdown then perhaps we might know who that person is, but because this started in the way that it started, we

aren't going to know that, because the whole thing is bound up, and therefore for legal reasons, the identity will not be given. you rightly raise that point, because i think that a question that is going to be asked by those following the story and are interested in. let me do a text, — story and are interested in. let me do a text, three _ story and are interested in. let me do a text, three c. _ story and are interested in. let me do a text, three c. -- _ story and are interested in. let me do a text, three c. -- c. _ story and are interested in. let me do a text, three c. -- c. this - story and are interested in. let me do a text, three c. -- c. this is - do a text, three c. —— c. this is the third morning you are discussing this, enough! the world is falling apart yet you want to discuss again in situation we know almost nothing about. hence, just fielding speculation, find something else to talk about. coming up after ten — i'll bejoined by my panel of mps, ahead of prime minister's questions at 12. dame andrea leadsom for the conservatives, thangam debonairre for labour, and richard foord for the liberal democrats. discussing the immigration bill, thames water, borisjohnson messages that relish for some reason not

going to get to the inquiry, discussing all sorts of stuff. a lot of people think this principle, this dichotomy between the public interest and what is of interest to the public is terribly important when it comes to our law. doctor evan harris, it's been a long time stop evan harris, it's been a long time sto ; ., evan harris, it's been a long time sto_ ., is evan harris, it's been a long time stop- is this _ evan harris, it's been a long time stop- is this any _ evan harris, it's been a long time stop- is this any of- evan harris, it's been a long time stop- is this any of our- stop hello. is this any of our business? — stop hello. is this any of our business? the _ stop hello. is this any of our business? the element - stop hello. is this any of our business? the element thatj stop hello. is this any of our. business? the element that is stop hello. is this any of our- business? the element that is not the right question, the question... that is the question we're asking this morning, and the one we go with. ., ., , ,., this morning, and the one we go with. ., ., , that with. the name of the person? that we should know _ with. the name of the person? that we should know the _ with. the name of the person? that we should know the name _ with. the name of the person? that we should know the name of - with. the name of the person? that we should know the name of the - we should know the name of the person, just deal with the question we are asking. the person, just deal with the question we are asking-— person, just deal with the question we are asking. the short answer no, but let me — we are asking. the short answer no, but let me explain _ we are asking. the short answer no, but let me explain why. _ we are asking. the short answer no, but let me explain why. and - we are asking. the short answer no, but let me explain why. and what i but let me explain why. and what your previous caller said. the courts have established there is a reasonable expectation of privacy about serious criminal allegations until charged. so that is the

baseline position, and if you are a suspect —like cliff richard was or other people, you may be innocent and never charged, you will never be able to get rid of the taint of having your name in the national press are national broadcast because much more publicity is given to the allegation than is given to the charges are not being brought. no case to answer. and that's just the fact. and the courts have recognised that. howeverthat�*s fact. and the courts have recognised that. however that's not the end of the matter. once you have established there is reason why traditional privacy, that right, that reasonable expectation is to be balanced against freedom of expression and the right to information, and that is absolutely right under the european bill of human rights, human rights act and european convention on human rights, and the fact is that the courts then have to way, and they are fact specific, is a very serious allegation? ok. what is the genuine public interest in knowing the name? if the police are investigating and they say would hinder their investigation for a suspect to be

tipped off, for example, and start destroying evidence, that's a factor, but if the police decide that they need to name someone, for example someone is on the run, then that will trump the right of the individual for reasonable expectation of privacy while under investigation, not as clear and settled law the supreme court, in the zx e versus bloomberg case, that's what even the sun with its obvious agenda of damaging the bbc have been unwilling to name the individual, especially given the holes that are appearing in both the story and the way they reported it, which i'd like to discuss.— which i'd like to discuss. you'll come back _ which i'd like to discuss. you'll come back to _ which i'd like to discuss. you'll come back to you _ which i'd like to discuss. you'll come back to you on _ which i'd like to discuss. you'll come back to you on that - which i'd like to discuss. you'll come back to you on that but i which i'd like to discuss. you'll. come back to you on that but the which i'd like to discuss. you'll- come back to you on that but the bbc have reported one story, one aspect of this bigger story, people have seen it on the website comments be on the use about the presenter sending some abusive messages to somebody who did not want to meet him after there had been initial contact on a dating app... the story

was that after _ contact on a dating app... the story was that after the _ contact on a dating app... the story was that after the person _ contact on a dating app... the story| was that after the person threatened to expose them publicly for the fact of the relationship, that is what allegedly because the abusive messages, not that they didn't want to meet. we should be clear. i don't know, we're not going to talk about how the presenter may be, but any theoretical case of someone is married and having an affair and someone threatens to out them in the public, then people might get squarely because it is a betrayal of confidence. and if someone is gay and in the closet and does not want to be out and someone threatens to out them, then again, currently threatens to blackmail them, then that might also lead to a very fruity response. ok? that might also lead to a very fruity response. 0k?- it that might also lead to a very - fruity response. 0k?- it was fruity response. 0k? yeah. it was ou and fruity response. 0k? yeah. it was you and someone _ fruity response. 0k? yeah. it was you and someone threatened - fruity response. 0k? yeah. it was you and someone threatened to l you and someone threatened to blackmail you... you and someone threatened to blackmail you. . ._ you and someone threatened to blackmail you. .. they would be a fruity response. _ blackmail you. .. they would be a fruity response. i _ blackmail you. .. they would be a fruity response. i would - blackmail you. .. they would be a fruity response. i would dip - blackmail you. .. they would be a fruity response. i would dip into l fruity response. i would dip into chaucer. ~ ., .,

fruity response. i would dip into chaucer. ~ . ., , chaucer. indeed. what am saying is, ou chaucer. indeed. what am saying is, you cannot — chaucer. indeed. what am saying is, you cannot take _ chaucer. indeed. what am saying is, you cannot take these _ chaucer. indeed. what am saying is, you cannot take these things - you cannot take these things reported, even when it is only one side, even when reported by the bbc, which is at least improper fact checking unlike it seems the sun, you can't take these as the end of the story and you certainly shouldn't misrepresent them as being threatening messages because you refuse to meet, that is not with the story was. i might thank you very much for the clarification. lots of stuff is coming in here. pauli stuff is coming in here. paul gilbert, if— stuff is coming in here. paul gilbert, if you _ stuff is coming in here. paul gilbert, if you were - stuff is coming in here. paul gilbert, if you were to - stuff is coming in here. paul gilbert, if you were to be i stuff is coming in here. paul gilbert, if you were to be arguing as a media lawyer, well—versed in our game both sides, if you were to be arguing for the case of the name coming out, what are those arguments?— coming out, what are those arguments? coming out, what are those art uments? . , ., ., arguments? the arguments are that the erson arguments? the arguments are that the person is— arguments? the arguments are that the person is a _ arguments? the arguments are that the person is a public— arguments? the arguments are that the person is a public figure, - arguments? the arguments are that the person is a public figure, and i the person is a public figure, and their_ the person is a public figure, and their behaviour is therefore of public— their behaviour is therefore of public interest. it is a difficult one, _ public interest. it is a difficult one, because of where the story is,

and as— one, because of where the story is, and as your— one, because of where the story is, and as your last contributor was saying. — and as your last contributor was saying. the _ and as your last contributor was saying, the fact that the sun ran the story— saying, the fact that the sun ran the story on the basis of what the parents _ the story on the basis of what the parents were saying, it is quite clear_ parents were saying, it is quite clear now — parents were saying, it is quite clear now that the parents are estranged from the victim, and therefore — estranged from the victim, and therefore is a story of parents who are unhappy with the way in which the bbc_ are unhappy with the way in which the bbc investigated the matter, and so therefore you are looking at the issues _ so therefore you are looking at the issues around whether the bbc being a public— issues around whether the bbc being a public service broadcaster and the beneficiary — a public service broadcaster and the beneficiary of public funding should, _ beneficiary of public funding should, for that reason there should be a full— should, for that reason there should be a full reporting of the story, including — be a full reporting of the story, including the person who is paid by the bbc, _ including the person who is paid by the bbc, and therefore there is a duty to _ the bbc, and therefore there is a duty to disclose, but i struggle with that — duty to disclose, but i struggle with that argument, as you can sell. i with that argument, as you can sell. i know. _

with that argument, as you can sell. i know. just — with that argument, as you can sell. i know, just asking you to put the coin —— as you can tell. —— flip the coin, which she did definitely. jake, good to have you on. coin, which she did definitely. jake, good to have you on. thank you for takin: jake, good to have you on. thank you for taking my — jake, good to have you on. thank you for taking my call. _ jake, good to have you on. thank you for taking my call. sorry _ jake, good to have you on. thank you for taking my call. sorry what - jake, good to have you on. thank you for taking my call. sorry what you i for taking my call. sorry what you had to _ for taking my call. sorry what you had to go — for taking my call. sorry what you had to go throughout _ for taking my call. sorry what you had to go throughout the - for taking my call. sorry what you i had to go throughout the weekend. don't _ had to go throughout the weekend. don't worry— had to go throughout the weekend. don't worry about _ had to go throughout the weekend. don't worry about that, _ had to go throughout the weekend. don't worry about that, there - had to go throughout the weekend. don't worry about that, there is i don't worry about that, there is worse things happen at sea, as they say. is this any of our business? it is this any of our business? no, it's not. — is this any of our business? no, it's not. really. _ is this any of our business? no, it's not, really, to _ is this any of our business? no, it's not, really, to be _ is this any of our business? no, it's not, really, to be honest- is this any of our business? no, i it's not, really, to be honest with you _ it's not, really, to be honest with you it _ it's not, really, to be honest with you it is — it's not, really, to be honest with you it is with— it's not, really, to be honest with you. it is with the _ it's not, really, to be honest with you. it is with the individuals i you. it is with the individuals involved _ you. it is with the individuals involved. there _ you. it is with the individuals involved. there seems- you. it is with the individuals involved. there seems to i you. it is with the individuals involved. there seems to be| you. it is with the individuals. involved. there seems to be a you. it is with the individuals i involved. there seems to be a lot you. it is with the individuals - involved. there seems to be a lot of speculation. — involved. there seems to be a lot of speculation. he_ involved. there seems to be a lot of speculation, he said, _ involved. there seems to be a lot of speculation, he said, she _ involved. there seems to be a lot of speculation, he said, she said, i involved. there seems to be a lot ofj speculation, he said, she said, nana nana _ speculation, he said, she said, nana nana nana, — speculation, he said, she said, nana nana nana, there— speculation, he said, she said, nana nana nana, there is— speculation, he said, she said, nana nana nana, there is a— speculation, he said, she said, nana nana nana, there is a lot— speculation, he said, she said, nana nana nana, there is a lot more - speculation, he said, she said, nanaj nana nana, there is a lot more going on in _ nana nana, there is a lot more going on in this— nana nana, there is a lot more going on in this country. _ nana nana, there is a lot more going on in this country, a _ nana nana, there is a lot more going on in this country, a lot _ nana nana, there is a lot more going on in this country, a lot more - nana nana, there is a lot more going on in this country, a lot more goingl on in this country, a lot more going on in this country, a lot more going on in _ on in this country, a lot more going on in the _ on in this country, a lot more going on in the world _ on in this country, a lot more going on in the world than— on in this country, a lot more going on in the world than these - on in this country, a lot more going on in the world than these four i on in the world than these four individuals. _ on in the world than these four individuals, and _ on in the world than these four individuals, and i— on in the world than these four individuals, and i think- on in the world than these four individuals, and i think with. on in the world than these four| individuals, and i think with the cost _ individuals, and i think with the cost of— individuals, and i think with the cost of living _ individuals, and i think with the cost of living and _ individuals, and i think with the cost of living and everybody- cost of living and everybody struggling, _ cost of living and everybody struggling, a _ cost of living and everybody struggling, a lot _ cost of living and everybody struggling, a lot of- cost of living and everybody struggling, a lot of people i cost of living and everybody. struggling, a lot of people are going — struggling, a lot of people are going to — struggling, a lot of people are going to start _ struggling, a lot of people are going to start getting - struggling, a lot of people are going to start getting bored, i struggling, a lot of people are i going to start getting bored, i'm getting — going to start getting bored, i'm getting tedious _ going to start getting bored, i'm getting tedious and _ going to start getting bored, i'm getting tedious and bored - going to start getting bored, i'm getting tedious and bored of- going to start getting bored, i'm getting tedious and bored of it, i going to start getting bored, i'm i getting tedious and bored of it, and as i getting tedious and bored of it, and as i said _ getting tedious and bored of it, and as i said to— getting tedious and bored of it, and as i said to ben_ getting tedious and bored of it, and as i said to ben that— getting tedious and bored of it, and as i said to ben that i—

getting tedious and bored of it, and as i said to ben that i spoke - getting tedious and bored of it, and as i said to ben that i spoke to, ii as i said to ben that i spoke to, i think— as i said to ben that i spoke to, i think the — as i said to ben that i spoke to, i think the law— as i said to ben that i spoke to, i think the law is _ as i said to ben that i spoke to, i think the law is a _ as i said to ben that i spoke to, i think the law is a bit _ as i said to ben that i spoke to, i think the law is a bit archaic i think the law is a bit archaic because _ think the law is a bit archaic because as _ think the law is a bit archaic because as i _ think the law is a bit archaic because as i described i think the law is a bit archaic because as i described to i think the law is a bit archaic i because as i described to him as think the law is a bit archaic - because as i described to him as see it, if because as i described to him as see it. if a _ because as i described to him as see it, if a 16-year-old — because as i described to him as see it, if a 16—year—old boy— because as i described to him as see it, if a 16—year—old boy has - because as i described to him as see it, if a 16—year—old boy has sex - it, if a 16—year—old boy has sex with— it, if a 16—year—old boy has sex with a — it, if a 16—year—old boy has sex with a 17—year—old _ it, if a 16—year—old boy has sex with a 17—year—old girl- it, if a 16—year—old boy has sex with a 17—year—old girl which i it, if a 16—year—old boy has sex with a 17—year—old girl which is| with a 17—year—old girl which is totally— with a 17—year—old girl which is totally within— with a 17—year—old girl which is totally within the _ with a 17—year—old girl which is totally within the law - with a 17—year—old girl which is totally within the law because i with a 17—year—old girl which isi totally within the law because it with a 17—year—old girl which is i totally within the law because it is at 16 and — totally within the law because it is at 16 and then _ totally within the law because it is at 16 and then that _ totally within the law because it is at 16 and then that 17—year—old i totally within the law because it isi at 16 and then that 17—year—old girl thinks _ at 16 and then that 17—year—old girl thinks i _ at 16 and then that 17—year—old girl thinks i might— at 16 and then that 17—year—old girl thinks i might want— at 16 and then that 17—year—old girl thinks i might want to _ at 16 and then that 17—year—old girl thinks i might want to spice - at 16 and then that 17—year—old girl thinks i might want to spice things| thinks i might want to spice things up thinks i might want to spice things up here _ thinks i might want to spice things up here and — thinks i might want to spice things up here and sends _ thinks i might want to spice things up here and sends that— thinks i might want to spice things| up here and sends that 16—year—old boy a _ up here and sends that 16—year—old boy a photograph. _ up here and sends that 16—year—old boy a photograph, then _ up here and sends that 16—year—old boy a photograph, then he - up here and sends that 16—year—old boy a photograph, then he is- up here and sends that 16—year—old boy a photograph, then he is liable| boy a photograph, then he is liable for prosecution _ boy a photograph, then he is liable for prosecution by _ boy a photograph, then he is liable for prosecution by the _ boy a photograph, then he is liable for prosecution by the law- boy a photograph, then he is liable for prosecution by the law because | for prosecution by the law because he has _ for prosecution by the law because he has that— for prosecution by the law because he has that 17—year—old _ for prosecution by the law because he has that 17—year—old girl's - he has that 17—year—old girl's photograph. _ he has that 17—year—old girl's photograph. but— he has that 17—year—old girl's photograph, but they - he has that 17—year—old girl's photograph, but they have i he has that 17—year—old girl's i photograph, but they have slept together. — photograph, but they have slept together. they— photograph, but they have slept together, they have _ photograph, but they have slept together, they have had - photograph, but they have slept together, they have had sex, i photograph, but they have slept l together, they have had sex, they have _ together, they have had sex, they have seen — together, they have had sex, they have seen each _ together, they have had sex, they have seen each other _ together, they have had sex, they have seen each other naked, i together, they have had sex, they have seen each other naked, andi together, they have had sex, theyj have seen each other naked, and i think— have seen each other naked, and i think the _ have seen each other naked, and i think the law— have seen each other naked, and i think the law is _ have seen each other naked, and i think the law is just _ have seen each other naked, and i think the law is just a _ have seen each other naked, and i think the law is just a little - have seen each other naked, and i think the law is just a little bit i think the law isjust a little bit back— think the law isjust a little bit back to — think the law isjust a little bit back to front. _ think the law isjust a little bit back to front. it _ think the law isjust a little bit back to front. it is _ think the law isjust a little bit back to front. it is all - think the law isjust a little bit back to front. it is all a - think the law isjust a little bit back to front. it is all a little i back to front. it is all a little bit discombobulated - back to front. it is all a little | bit discombobulated because back to front. it is all a little i bit discombobulated because how back to front. it is all a little - bit discombobulated because how can it be that _ bit discombobulated because how can it be that you — bit discombobulated because how can it be that you can _ bit discombobulated because how can it be that you can have _ bit discombobulated because how can it be that you can have sex _ bit discombobulated because how can it be that you can have sex with - it be that you can have sex with somebody. _ it be that you can have sex with somebody. and _ it be that you can have sex with somebody, and as _ it be that you can have sex with somebody, and as i _ it be that you can have sex with somebody, and as i said, - it be that you can have sex with somebody, and as i said, she . it be that you can have sex with i somebody, and as i said, she might want _ somebody, and as i said, she might want to— somebody, and as i said, she might want to send — somebody, and as i said, she might want to send him _ somebody, and as i said, she might want to send him a _ somebody, and as i said, she might want to send him a photograph, i somebody, and as i said, she might| want to send him a photograph, and then he _ want to send him a photograph, and then he is— want to send him a photograph, and then he is liable _ want to send him a photograph, and then he is liable by— want to send him a photograph, and then he is liable by law, _ want to send him a photograph, and then he is liable by law, because i want to send him a photograph, and then he is liable by law, because he| then he is liable by law, because he has a _ then he is liable by law, because he has a photograph— then he is liable by law, because he has a photograph of— then he is liable by law, because he has a photograph of somebody i then he is liable by law, because he has a photograph of somebody he l then he is liable by law, because he . has a photograph of somebody he has been close _ has a photograph of somebody he has been close with — has a photograph of somebody he has been close with and _ has a photograph of somebody he has been close with and had _

has a photograph of somebody he has been close with and had sex - has a photograph of somebody he has been close with and had sex with, i been close with and had sex with, and it— been close with and had sex with, and it is— been close with and had sex with, and it isjustm _ been close with and had sex with, and it isjust... oh, _ been close with and had sex with, and it isjust... oh, god. - been close with and had sex with, and it isjust... oh, god. give- been close with and had sex with, and it isjust... oh, god. give me| and it isjust... oh, god. give me strength. — and it isjust... oh, god. give me strength, please. _ and it isjust... oh, god. give me strength, please. that— and it isjust... oh, god. give me strength, please. that is- and it isjust... oh, god. give me strength, please. that is my- and it isjust... oh, god. give me i strength, please. that is my point, it is very— strength, please. that is my point, it is very boring. _ strength, please. that is my point, it is very boring, very— strength, please. that is my point, it is very boring, very tedious, i strength, please. that is my point, it is very boring, very tedious, andl it is very boring, very tedious, and nobody— it is very boring, very tedious, and nobody knows _ it is very boring, very tedious, and nobody knows anybody, _ it is very boring, very tedious, and nobody knows anybody, but - it is very boring, very tedious, and i nobody knows anybody, but everybody is running _ nobody knows anybody, but everybody is running around _ nobody knows anybody, but everybody is running around like _ nobody knows anybody, but everybody is running around like headless - is running around like headless chickens — is running around like headless chickens. . ~ is running around like headless chickens. ., ~ , ., is running around like headless chickens. w is running around like headless chickens. ., ,, chickens. take your point. headless chickens. take your point. headless chickens- it — chickens. take your point. headless chickens. it doesn't _ chickens. take your point. headless chickens. it doesn't do _ chickens. take your point. headless chickens. it doesn't do headless i chickens. it doesn't do headless chickens. it doesn't do headless chickens justice what is going on in this building. jake, a point well made. neal in edinburgh, this is fascinating, finding out what you are saying about this. a lot of you have led to the phones to see it as none of our business. i do maintain it is an important debate to have because it is a debate raised by hacked off over the last four years very powerfully and in debate raised by others when it comes to their own privacy so that is at the heart of this —— two. on that basis, it is a conversation well worth having.

hello neil in edinburgh, how are you doing? my hometown. is this any of our business? what do you say? thank ou. the our business? what do you say? thank you- the point — our business? what do you say? thank you- the point you _ our business? what do you say? thank you. the point you make, _ our business? what do you say? thank you. the point you make, is _ our business? what do you say? thank you. the point you make, is it- our business? what do you say? thank you. the point you make, is it any i you. the point you make, is it any other business? i sincerely think it is not. no laws have broken here. this should be a matter between the bbc and the employee, and hr matter and nothing more than that. i think we are turning into a bit of a nanny state when you consider some of the other problem is we've got in the country and the world right now, none less than the energy crisis and the cost of living increase, people are struggling to pay the bills, is this belief in line used? no laws have been broken until such time as laws have been broken, this should not be any public interest. the ount not be any public interest. the young person _ not be any public interest. the young person in _ not be any public interest. the young person in question said nothing unlawful, nothing inappropriate, the definition of

inappropriate, the definition of inappropriate for the application might be in the circumstances, so frankly we, the press, the media should, to coin a phrase, but out. leaveit should, to coin a phrase, but out. leave it for a few days, don't report on it, see what happens. in scotland it would be the procurator fiscal, in england and the crown prosecution service and they are not intended to take any action, not been notified, so why should the public be interested?— been notified, so why should the public be interested? daniel, kc, how are you? _ public be interested? daniel, kc, how are you? well, _ public be interested? daniel, kc, how are you? well, about - public be interested? daniel, kc, how are you? well, about to i public be interested? daniel, kc, how are you? well, about to go i public be interested? daniel, kc, i how are you? well, about to go into court. how are you? well, about to go into court- dressed _ how are you? well, about to go into court. dressed for— how are you? well, about to go into court. dressed for the. _ how are you? well, about to go into court. dressed for the. legally i court. dressed for the. legally da er. court. dressed for the. legally dapper- always _ court. dressed for the. legally dapper. always dress - court. dressed for the. legally dapper. always dress like i court. dressed for the. legally| dapper. always dress like that. court. dressed for the. legally i dapper. always dress like that. you are well—versed in making both cases, i know what you believe, is any case for naming this individual in the public interest?—

in the public interest? well, the short answer— in the public interest? well, the short answer is _ in the public interest? well, the short answer is this _ in the public interest? well, the short answer is this should i in the public interest? well, the short answer is this should be . in the public interest? well, the i short answer is this should be none of our— short answer is this should be none of our business, you should be none of our business, you should be none of the _ of our business, you should be none of the public's business, it risks what _ of the public's business, it risks what is — of the public's business, it risks what is going on, risks breaching the right— what is going on, risks breaching the right to privacy, leads to a presumption of guilt and what is going _ presumption of guilt and what is going on— presumption of guilt and what is going on is a whipping up a frenzy which _ going on is a whipping up a frenzy which risks— going on is a whipping up a frenzy which risks those basic rights, and i'm which risks those basic rights, and i'm afraid — which risks those basic rights, and i'm afraid we see it and i don't mean — i'm afraid we see it and i don't mean to— i'm afraid we see it and i don't mean to be _ i'm afraid we see it and i don't mean to be critical in any way of your— mean to be critical in any way of your colleagues, i understand the pressure — your colleagues, i understand the pressure they are under, butjeremy vine has _ pressure they are under, butjeremy vine has done it today, in other words _ vine has done it today, in other words it— vine has done it today, in other words it is— vine has done it today, in other words it is almost like a public flogging — words it is almost like a public flogging to name this individual, and it— flogging to name this individual, and it is— flogging to name this individual, and it is entirely wrong that that happens — and it is entirely wrong that that happens. as you know, i run a campaign _ happens. as you know, i run a campaign with cliff richard on the basism _ campaign with cliff richard on the basism 0n— campaign with cliff richard on the basis... , , ., campaign with cliff richard on the basis... , ., ., ., ., , basis... on the basis of allegations a . ainst basis... on the basis of allegations against her — basis... on the basis of allegations against her late _ basis... on the basis of allegations against her late father. _ basis... on the basis of allegations against her late father. they i basis... on the basis of allegations against her late father. they were l against her late father. they were entirely false _ against her late father. they were entirely false allegations - against her late father. they were entirely false allegations against l entirely false allegations against him and — entirely false allegations against him and others and we have come

together— him and others and we have come together to — him and others and we have come together to ensure the criminal law is changed — together to ensure the criminal law is changed to provide for anonymity until charged. the short answer is this ke's _ until charged. the short answer is this ke's risks those principles and it's a _ this ke's risks those principles and it's a terrible thing for this individual and his family. let me throw one _ individual and his family. let me throw one to _ individual and his family. let me throw one to you, _ individual and his family. let me throw one to you, evan, - individual and his family. let me throw one to you, evan, you - individual and his family. let me throw one to you, evan, you are| throw one to you, evan, you are quite right to correct me that the bbc story, angry messages were sent after the young adult threaten to make contact public, it was another situation that has been reported where there was a refusal to meet. forgive me on the basis that a lot of stuff has been coming in. so apologies again. it is of stuff has been coming in. so apologies again. it is confusing. i'm sure you _ apologies again. it is confusing. i'm sure you have _ apologies again. it is confusing. i'm sure you have some - apologies again. it is confusing. | i'm sure you have some thoughts apologies again. it is confusing. - i'm sure you have some thoughts on what you are so far. do you think the bbc, by reporting this latest

allegation, fuelling the fire? your auestion allegation, fuelling the fire? your question was _ allegation, fuelling the fire? your question was is _ allegation, fuelling the fire? your question was is this _ allegation, fuelling the fire? your question was is this any _ allegation, fuelling the fire? your question was is this any other business _ question was is this any other business and _ question was is this any other business and i— question was is this any other business and i had _ question was is this any other business and i had trouble . question was is this any other- business and i had trouble answering initiativ— business and i had trouble answering initially because _ business and i had trouble answering initially because the _ business and i had trouble answering initially because the fact _ business and i had trouble answering initially because the fact of— business and i had trouble answering initially because the fact of an - initially because the fact of an allegation— initially because the fact of an allegation is— initially because the fact of an allegation is reportable - initially because the fact of an allegation is reportable and l initially because the fact of an allegation is reportable and ii initially because the fact of an - allegation is reportable and i would not criticise — allegation is reportable and i would not criticise the _ allegation is reportable and i would not criticise the bbc— allegation is reportable and i would not criticise the bbc and _ allegation is reportable and i would not criticise the bbc and anyone . not criticise the bbc and anyone else for— not criticise the bbc and anyone else for the _ not criticise the bbc and anyone else for th— not criticise the bbc and anyone else forth ~. ., , , , else for the otherwise they will be a of doinu else for the otherwise they will be a of doing what — else for the otherwise they will be a of doing what depressed - else for the otherwise they will be a of doing what depressed there l a of doing what depressed there which is never reporting on their own, allegations of their own wrongdoing. fir own, allegations of their own wrongdoing-— own, allegations of their own wronaudoin. , ,_ ., , wrongdoing. or press criminality. but knowing _ wrongdoing. or press criminality. but knowing the _ wrongdoing. or press criminality. but knowing the name _ wrongdoing. or press criminality. but knowing the name of - wrongdoing. or press criminality. but knowing the name of the - wrongdoing. or press criminality. i but knowing the name of the person is not _ but knowing the name of the person is not in _ but knowing the name of the person is not in the — but knowing the name of the person is not in the public— but knowing the name of the person is not in the public interest- but knowing the name of the person is not in the public interest for- is not in the public interest for the reasons— is not in the public interest for the reasons i— is not in the public interest for the reasons i have _ is not in the public interest for the reasons i have given. - is not in the public interest for the reasons i have given. and| is not in the public interest for- the reasons i have given. and even the reasons i have given. and even the sun— the reasons i have given. and even the sun say— the reasons i have given. and even the sun say this, _ the reasons i have given. and even the sun say this, part— the reasons i have given. and even the sun say this, part of— the reasons i have given. and even the sun say this, part of the - the sun say this, part of the problem _ the sun say this, part of the problem i_ the sun say this, part of the problem i have _ the sun say this, part of the problem i have with - the sun say this, part of the problem i have with the - the sun say this, part of that problem i have with the way the sun say this, part of the - problem i have with the way the bbc have handled — problem i have with the way the bbc have handled this _ problem i have with the way the bbc have handled this is— problem i have with the way the bbc have handled this is that _ problem i have with the way the bbc have handled this is that it— problem i have with the way the bbc have handled this is that it wants - have handled this is that it wants to self— have handled this is that it wants to self emulate _ have handled this is that it wants to self emulate itself, _ have handled this is that it wants to self emulate itself, like - have handled this is that it wants to self emulate itself, like the i to self emulate itself, like the nronks— to self emulate itself, like the monks did _ to self emulate itself, like the monks did in _ to self emulate itself, like the monks did in the _ to self emulate itself, like the monks did in the middle - to self emulate itself, like the| monks did in the middle ages. to self emulate itself, like the - monks did in the middle ages. these sun have _ monks did in the middle ages. these sun have an— monks did in the middle ages. these sun have an agenda _ monks did in the middle ages. these sun have an agenda that _ monks did in the middle ages. these sun have an agenda that they- monks did in the middle ages. these sun have an agenda that they are - monks did in the middle ages. thesei sun have an agenda that they are not super— sun have an agenda that they are not super about, — sun have an agenda that they are not superabout, rupert— sun have an agenda that they are not super about, rupert murdoch - sun have an agenda that they are not super about, rupert murdoch keeps. super about, rupert murdoch keeps the bbc, _ super about, rupert murdoch keeps the bbc, wants— super about, rupert murdoch keeps the bbc, wants to _ super about, rupert murdoch keeps the bbc, wants to see _ super about, rupert murdoch keeps the bbc, wants to see it _ super about, rupert murdoch keeps the bbc, wants to see it destroyed, | the bbc, wants to see it destroyed, the bbc, wants to see it destroyed, the bbc_ the bbc, wants to see it destroyed, the bbc is _ the bbc, wants to see it destroyed, the bbc is effectively _ the bbc, wants to see it destroyed, the bbc is effectively commercial. the bbc is effectively commercial rival because _ the bbc is effectively commercial rival because it _ the bbc is effectively commercial rival because it takes _ the bbc is effectively commercial rival because it takes gaze -

the bbc is effectively commercial rival because it takes gaze from i the bbc is effectively commercial. rival because it takes gaze from the sun's— rival because it takes gaze from the sun's website — rival because it takes gaze from the sun's website and _ rival because it takes gaze from the sun's website and the _ rival because it takes gaze from the sun's website and the sun - rival because it takes gaze from the i sun's website and the sun newspaper, and it— sun's website and the sun newspaper, and it is— sun's website and the sun newspaper, and it is entitled _ sun's website and the sun newspaper, and it is entitled in _ sun's website and the sun newspaper, and it is entitled in a _ sun's website and the sun newspaper, and it is entitled in a free _ sun's website and the sun newspaper, and it is entitled in a free country- and it is entitled in a free country to run— and it is entitled in a free country to run that — and it is entitled in a free country to run that campaign, _ and it is entitled in a free country to run that campaign, i— and it is entitled in a free country to run that campaign, i think- and it is entitled in a free country to run that campaign, i think it i to run that campaign, i think it should — to run that campaign, i think it should be _ to run that campaign, i think it should be more _ to run that campaign, i think it should be more transparent i to run that campaign, i think it i should be more transparent about to run that campaign, i think it - should be more transparent about it, but it— should be more transparent about it, but it doesn't — should be more transparent about it, but it doesn't mean— should be more transparent about it, but it doesn't mean that _ should be more transparent about it, but it doesn't mean that the - should be more transparent about it, but it doesn't mean that the bbc i should be more transparent about it, but it doesn't mean that the bbc has| but it doesn't mean that the bbc has to get— but it doesn't mean that the bbc has to get up— but it doesn't mean that the bbc has to get up and — but it doesn't mean that the bbc has to get up and run— but it doesn't mean that the bbc has to get up and run with _ but it doesn't mean that the bbc has to get up and run with it. _ but it doesn't mean that the bbc has to get up and run with it. what i but it doesn't mean that the bbc has to get up and run with it. what did i to get up and run with it. what did the sun— to get up and run with it. what did the sun do? — to get up and run with it. what did the sun do? they— to get up and run with it. what did the sun do? they knew— to get up and run with it. what did the sun do? they knew the - to get up and run with it. what did the sun do? they knew the young | the sun do? they knew the young person— the sun do? they knew the young person did — the sun do? they knew the young person did not _ the sun do? they knew the young person did not accept _ the sun do? they knew the young person did not accept the - the sun do? they knew the young person did not accept the truth i the sun do? they knew the young person did not accept the truth of| person did not accept the truth of what _ person did not accept the truth of what they— person did not accept the truth of what they were _ person did not accept the truth of what they were saying _ person did not accept the truth of what they were saying when i person did not accept the truth of what they were saying when he i what they were saying when he published — what they were saying when he published a _ what they were saying when he published a story— what they were saying when he published a story on _ what they were saying when he published a story on saturday, | what they were saying when he i published a story on saturday, but they did _ published a story on saturday, but they did not — published a story on saturday, but they did not put _ published a story on saturday, but they did not put that _ published a story on saturday, but they did not put that in _ published a story on saturday, but they did not put that in the - published a story on saturday, but they did not put that in the story, i they did not put that in the story, they did not put that in the story, they did _ they did not put that in the story, they did not — they did not put that in the story, they did not put _ they did not put that in the story, they did not put the _ they did not put that in the story, they did not put the soul- they did not put that in the story, they did not put the soul of- they did not put that in the story, they did not put the soul of the i they did not put the soul of the denial— they did not put the soul of the denial of— they did not put the soul of the denial of the _ they did not put the soul of the denial of the young _ they did not put the soul of the denial of the young person, i they did not put the soul of the i denial of the young person, nothing inappropriate — denial of the young person, nothing inappropriate run—off— denial of the young person, nothing inappropriate run—off will— denial of the young person, nothing inappropriate run—off will take i inappropriate run—off will take place — inappropriate run—off will take place and _ inappropriate run—off will take place and that _ inappropriate run—off will take place and that the _ inappropriate run—off will take place and that the story - inappropriate run—off will take place and that the story was l place and that the story was rubbish _ place and that the story was rubbish. the _ place and that the story was rubbish. the only— place and that the story was rubbish. the only dead i place and that the story was rubbish. the only dead that| place and that the story was i rubbish. the only dead that days later~ _ rubbish. the only dead that days later~ that— rubbish. the only dead that days later~ that is— rubbish. the only dead that days later. that is misleading - rubbish. the only dead that days later. that is misleading their. later. that is misleading their readers _ later. that is misleading their readers. today— later. that is misleading their readers. today they- later. that is misleading their readers. today they have i later. that is misleading their. readers. today they have come later. that is misleading their- readers. today they have come up with a _ readers. today they have come up with a story— readers. today they have come up with a story about _ readers. today they have come up with a story about a _ readers. today they have come up with a story about a knowledge i with a story about a knowledge breach — with a story about a knowledge breach of — with a story about a knowledge breach of lockdown, _ with a story about a knowledge breach of lockdown, that - with a story about a knowledge breach of lockdown, that they. with a story about a knowledge i breach of lockdown, that they failed to report _ breach of lockdown, that they failed to report on — breach of lockdown, that they failed to report on their— breach of lockdown, that they failed to report on their own _ breach of lockdown, that they failed to report on their own deputy- breach of lockdown, that they failed to report on their own deputy editori to report on their own deputy editor who at— to report on their own deputy editor who at the — to report on their own deputy editor who at the time _ to report on their own deputy editor who at the time was _ to report on their own deputy editor who at the time was the _ to report on their own deputy editor who at the time was the director. to report on their own deputy editor who at the time was the director of| who at the time was the director of political— who at the time was the director of political communications _ who at the time was the director of political communications holding i who at the time was the director of political communications holding a | political communications holding a leaving _ political communications holding a leaving party— political communications holding a leaving party at _ political communications holding a leaving party at downing _ political communications holding a leaving party at downing street i leaving party at downing street during — leaving party at downing street during lockdown. _ leaving party at downing street during lockdown. that - leaving party at downing street during lockdown. that had i leaving party at downing street during lockdown. that had to. leaving party at downing streeti during lockdown. that had to be reported — during lockdown. that had to be reported by— during lockdown. that had to be reported by other _ during lockdown. that had to be reported by other parts - during lockdown. that had to be reported by other parts of - during lockdown. that had to be reported by other parts of the l during lockdown. that had to be - reported by other parts of the press even though— reported by other parts of the press even though their— reported by other parts of the press even though their own _ reported by other parts of the press even though their own deputy - reported by other parts of the press| even though their own deputy editor had the _ even though their own deputy editor had the skip— even though their own deputy editor had the skip of— even though their own deputy editor had the skip of the _ even though their own deputy editor had the skip of the year— even though their own deputy editor had the skip of the year that - even though their own deputy editor had the skip of the year that he - even though their own deputy editor had the skip of the year that he was| had the skip of the year that he was the subject—

had the skip of the year that he was the subject of— had the skip of the year that he was the subject of this _ had the skip of the year that he was the subject of this party, _ had the skip of the year that he was the subject of this party, where - had the skip of the year that he was the subject of this party, where the| the subject of this party, where the suitcase _ the subject of this party, where the suitcase of— the subject of this party, where the suitcase of bruce _ the subject of this party, where the suitcase of bruce was _ the subject of this party, where the suitcase of bruce was being - the subject of this party, where the l suitcase of bruce was being dragged in, suitcase of bruce was being dragged in. and _ suitcase of bruce was being dragged in. and that — suitcase of bruce was being dragged in, and that... that— suitcase of bruce was being dragged in, and that...— in, and that... that is the beauty ofthe in, and that... that is the beauty of the bbc. _ in, and that... that is the beauty of the bbc. you _ in, and that... that is the beauty of the bbc, you say _ in, and that... that is the beauty of the bbc, you say we _ in, and that. .. that is the beauty of the bbc, you say we sell- in, and that... that is the beauty l of the bbc, you say we sell family, we report on ourselves because we are a news organisation and every young person comes to us with these allegations, if we don't report it looks as you've just said about the sun, like we are covering it up. i'd be interested to know what both of you think and also paul gilbert what you think and also paul gilbert what you think and also paul gilbert what you think about what they think and so i'll be right with you. what is your view?— so i'll be right with you. what is our view? ,., .. .. , , your view? good morning, my view is that because — your view? good morning, my view is that because of _ your view? good morning, my view is that because of the _ your view? good morning, my view is that because of the nature _ your view? good morning, my view is that because of the nature of- your view? good morning, my view is that because of the nature of the - that because of the nature of the accusations and because of the fact that the bbc is funded by the licence payer that it absolutely is our business.— licence payer that it absolutely is our business. .. , , , , our business. 0k, not the business ofthe our business. 0k, not the business

of the person _ our business. 0k, not the business of the person involved _ our business. 0k, not the business of the person involved and - our business. 0k, not the business of the person involved and his - of the person involved and his family, and as i said, his conscience, because none of it was on bbc property and the, looks like he has not broken the law. is debatable, some of the accusations made involve lawbreaking... mat debatable, some of the accusations made involve lawbreaking. .. made involve lawbreaking... not yet, if at all. made involve lawbreaking... not yet, if at all- as — made involve lawbreaking... not yet, if at all- as it — made involve lawbreaking... not yet, if at all. as it stands _ made involve lawbreaking... not yet, if at all. as it stands currently... - if at all. as it stands currently... goal as it stands currently, the accusations potentially could lead to a situation where the law was broken. has a right to anonymity by the laws in that case... i'm interested in your view that mac are not interrupting you. he interested in your view that mac are not interrupting you.—

not interrupting you. he is. as are the victims _ not interrupting you. he is. as are the victims in _ not interrupting you. he is. as are the victims in this, _ not interrupting you. he is. as are the victims in this, i... _ not interrupting you. he is. as are the victims in this, i... i _ not interrupting you. he is. as are the victims in this, i... i want - not interrupting you. he is. as are the victims in this, i... i want to i the victims in this, i... i want to exort the victims in this, i... i want to earport it. _ the victims in this, i... i want to earport it. i'm — the victims in this, i... i want to export it, i'm not— the victims in this, i... i want to export it, i'm not cutting - the victims in this, i... i want to export it, i'm not cutting you i the victims in this, i... i want to| export it, i'm not cutting you off, think it is terribly important. because this person is paid a large amount of money by the licence fee payers, the licence fee payers have a right to know that his behaviour is less than exemplary. let me explore that with you.- explore that with you. there is another point _ explore that with you. there is another point i _ explore that with you. there is another point i would - explore that with you. there is another point i would add - explore that with you. there is another point i would add to i explore that with you. there is i another point i would add to this, as a licence payer, and that is because we don't know who this individual is, because we don't know what role he performs in the bbc, your question is actually, the timing of your question is actually incorrect because i can as a licence fee payer, i can get 80% of an answer as to whether this... not knowing what the man's position is.

i would say that if he holds a position of authority or influence or whatever he does within the bbc, and these accusations are made, then how i suppose the answer intelligently the question is it any of our business? without knowing what role this man has performed? 50 i think you're way too early with discretion, and i have to say, i think you are trying to divert attention off of your colleague, and also there has not been enough attention by the bbc the family, and the parents who are trying to defend their child who appears to be receiving licence fee payer's money to fund their crack cocaine habit, which is something as a licence fee payer... which is something as a licence fee -a er... .. ..�* which is something as a licence fee -a er... .. ~ .. which is something as a licence fee -a er... .. ~ ., .

which is something as a licence fee -a er... ., ~ ., . payer... you don't know which part ofthe payer... you don't know which part of the percent _ payer... you don't know which part of the percent of's _ payer... you don't know which part of the percent of's income - payer... you don't know which part of the percent of's income finance | of the percent of's income finance paid for... listen, we heard you stop nicola and angela, paul gilbert, answer angela, stop nicola and angela, paul gilbert, answerangela, i stop nicola and angela, paul gilbert, answer angela, ithink she's going to see something similar. angela, good morning, is it any other business? i stand by my question, is it any other business? i stand by my question, is it any of our business?— i stand by my question, is it any of our business? look, the thing is, is one knows. — our business? look, the thing is, is one knows, anybody— our business? look, the thing is, is one knows, anybody in _ our business? look, the thing is, is one knows, anybody in the - our business? look, the thing is, is one knows, anybody in the public. one knows, anybody in the public eye. _ one knows, anybody in the public eye, royalty, popsters, very prominent members in broadcasting, whatever— prominent members in broadcasting, whatever it _ prominent members in broadcasting, whatever it is, with privilege comes pain and _ whatever it is, with privilege comes pain and there is always a line between — pain and there is always a line between the right to privacy and the fact it _ between the right to privacy and the fact it is _ between the right to privacy and the fact it is a _ between the right to privacy and the fact it is a matter of public interest. _ fact it is a matter of public interest, so if you have somebody who is _ interest, so if you have somebody who is quizzing somebody about breaking — who is quizzing somebody about breaking lockdown, and they turn out to a broken— breaking lockdown, and they turn out to a broken lockdown themselves... there _ to a broken lockdown themselves... there is— to a broken lockdown themselves... there is a _ to a broken lockdown themselves... there is a credibility issue. the problem — there is a credibility issue. the problem is _ there is a credibility issue. the problem is the bbc has a legal

obligation for presenters, employers, new to not identify them but equally it is a responsibility to the — but equally it is a responsibility to the licence fee payer to conduct a proper— to the licence fee payer to conduct a proper investigation into the claims — a proper investigation into the claims and i think the issue here is that is— claims and i think the issue here is that is the — claims and i think the issue here is that is the fine balance everybody is teaching around at the problem is being _ is teaching around at the problem is being because the gene pool has slowly _ being because the gene pool has slowly been put through a toxic game of bingo— slowly been put through a toxic game of bingo were certain members of the bbc in— of bingo were certain members of the bbc in that— of bingo were certain members of the bbc in that particular high—profile pay bracket or area that this person is alleged _ pay bracket or area that this person is alleged to work, somehow, and said it _ is alleged to work, somehow, and said it is _ is alleged to work, somehow, and said it is not — is alleged to work, somehow, and said it is not me and it's a game of careful— said it is not me and it's a game of careful and — said it is not me and it's a game of careful and what has happened here is we _ careful and what has happened here is we need — careful and what has happened here is we need to drill in something more _ is we need to drill in something more specific wishes if you're any position— more specific wishes if you're any position of— more specific wishes if you're any position of such privilege whereby peopte _ position of such privilege whereby people look to you because they either— people look to you because they either see you regularly on the telly— either see you regularly on the telly hours because of the credibility of what you say, you are a politician. — credibility of what you say, you are a politician, whatever, and person inftuence. — a politician, whatever, and person influence. a — a politician, whatever, and person influence, a huge start, then there comes—

influence, a huge start, then there comes an — influence, a huge start, then there comes an element of expected behaviour that goes with it because you accept— behaviour that goes with it because you accept that responsibility, and if that— you accept that responsibility, and if that is— you accept that responsibility, and if that is found to fall short there is a public— if that is found to fall short there is a public interest argument. the problem _ is a public interest argument. the problem we have here, until there are any— problem we have here, until there are any specific criminal issues, audit— are any specific criminal issues, audit has— are any specific criminal issues, audit has been found that this person— audit has been found that this person did do certain things that realty— person did do certain things that really fatt— person did do certain things that really fall short of the level behaviour that is expected of their position. _ behaviour that is expected of their position, and there is an understanding it should be investigated. and it is very difficult _ investigated. and it is very difficult because what has happened here ism _ difficult because what has happened here is... . .. . difficult because what has happened here is... ,. .. , ,, .. difficult because what has happened here is... . .. , ,, .. ., here is... should be know the name? i aet here is... should be know the name? i net that, here is... should be know the name? i get that, should _ here is... should be know the name? i get that, should be _ here is... should be know the name? i get that, should be know— here is... should be know the name? i get that, should be know the - here is... should be know the name? | i get that, should be know the name? i get that, should be know the name? i want to get paul gilbert to answer your point there. should we know the name? bore your point there. should we know the name? �* , .. your point there. should we know the name? �* ,. ., your point there. should we know the name? . y.. ., ., your point there. should we know the name?— i'm i name? are you asking me are... i'm askin: name? are you asking me are... i'm asking you- — name? are you asking me are... i'm asking you- i — name? are you asking me are... i'm asking you. ithink— name? are you asking me are... i'm asking you. i think they _ name? are you asking me are... i'm asking you. i think they should, - asking you. i think they should, their name _ asking you. i think they should, their name should _ asking you. i think they should, their name should be _ asking you. i think they should, their name should be known . asking you. i think they should, their name should be known if. asking you. i think they should, - their name should be known if they are for— their name should be known if they are for something, however...

anybody— are for something, however... anybody who stands by the fact that they have _ anybody who stands by the fact that they have not done these things and can see _ they have not done these things and can see their colleagues being unfairly— can see their colleagues being unfairly castigated because the pool is so smatt— unfairly castigated because the pool is so small it should perhaps say it simply— is so small it should perhaps say it simply because they say it is not fair that— simply because they say it is not fair that people like me and my colleagues are being unfairly maligned. colleagues are being unfairly maligned-— colleagues are being unfairly maliuned. ., ., , , maligned. thank you. paul gilbert, can i 'ust maligned. thank you. paul gilbert, can ijust say. _ maligned. thank you. paul gilbert, can ijust say. i— maligned. thank you. paul gilbert, can ijust say, i think— maligned. thank you. paul gilbert, can ijust say, i think it _ maligned. thank you. paul gilbert, can ijust say, i think it might - maligned. thank you. paul gilbert, can ijust say, i think it might be i can ijust say, i think it might be new that mentioned jeremy vine's call for him to be named. jeremy tweeted yesterday, i'm starting to think a bbc presenter involved in the scandal should now come forward publicly, these new allegations will result in yet more vitriol being thrown perfectly innocent colleagues and the bbc, which i'm sure he loves is on its knees with this, but it is his decision and his alone and this morning jeremy his decision and his alone and this morningjeremy on his decision and his alone and this morning jeremy on his programme on channel five has repeated calls for end to come forward. well, i think the privilege versus pain point, in other words, that the... and let's use the example,

p0p the... and let's use the example, pop star, a popstar benefits from the publicity that is given to the popstar, it enables the popstar to sell more records, to be commercially more successful. that is a good and valid argument. but we are not talking here about a popstar, we are talking here about a presenter. and therefore, that privilege isn't the same. it is simply that the person is in the public eye and happens to work for the bbc. and so that's why i don't think that argument runs in this case, and also for reasons that i have already made about the fact that this ultimately is an issue around, or certainly is currently, an issue around the behaviour of an

employee in respect of their contract of employment. there is also another issue that this raises, which is that if you're in this position, and i am really talking here about presenters, what exactly is the behaviour, out of the workplace, that the presenter is supposed to abide by, that means that they won't be in breach of their contract of employment? because i have not seen a clause in a presenter�*s contract that specifies what they can and can't do in their private life. and that is where this becomes, i think, extremely difficult, and that is why the matter has to be investigated properly by the employer, because it

is not clear—cut, and i think you can see this... i really admire the people phoning in and explaining their positions and the differing positions that they have, but we can sort of see in the way that these explanations are being made how difficult it is to have a fixed view on this, because there are arguments, equally strong arguments, on both sides. i arguments, equally strong arguments, on both sides-— on both sides. i am going to go to the news and _ on both sides. i am going to go to the news and sport _ on both sides. i am going to go to the news and sport and _ on both sides. i am going to go to the news and sport and we - on both sides. i am going to go to the news and sport and we are - on both sides. i am going to go to i the news and sport and we are going to speak to nicola in derbyshire afterwards, butjust before, to teaseit afterwards, butjust before, to tease it up, it is a yes or a no, nicole in derbyshire, is this any of our business, yes or no? yes. we welcome back to that. it is 9.34.

al tansley has the 5 live news. the unnamed bbc presenter who is said to have paid a teenagerfor explicit photos is facing more allegations this morning. the radio 2 presenter jeremy vine has called on the individual to name himself, saying the new allegations mean "vitrol" could be thrown at "innocent colleagues". g7 leaders are set to sign a long—term security pact with ukraine today. the president of the european commission, ursula von der leyen, says the group is determined to uphold international law in the face of russian aggression. executives from thames water will face questions from mps this morning. they re expected to be asked how the company racked up debts of more than £14 billion, while sewage continued to be discharged thousands of times a year. and scientists in australia say they've created a kind of biodegradable glue that could be used to restore coral reefs. they hope it might help repair the great barrier reef one day but they say it will be hard to apply over a large area. john bennett has the sport. top seed carlo alcaraz

faces his old doubles partner holger rune in the wimbledon quarterfinals today. before that match its men's third seed daniil medvedev against the surprise package chris eubanks. and in the women's last eight, ons jabeur meets defending champion elena rybakina in a repeat of the 2022 final. elina svitolina is already into the semis just three months after returning to the tour after the shock win over iga swiatek. england captain heather knight says they'll have to be at their very best today to keep their women's ashes hopes alive. the first of three must—win odis gets underway in bristol later with england trailing 6—4 in the multi—format series. don't miss that on 5 sports xtra from 1245. in football brighton captain lewis dunk has committed himself to the club with a new deal for another three years. christian pulisic is close to 20 million pounds move from chelsea to ac milan. and jonas vingegaard

retains his overall lead in the tour de france ahead of stage ii which is expected to end in a bunch sprint. later on, thames water bosses will be facing questions from mps, we will get a bit of that. and also, your questions to mp5, it is angela rayner and oliver dowden today on premises questions. but right now, ten o'clock, who have we got? andrea leadsom for the conservatives, thangam debbonaire from labour, shadow leader of the micro, and

labour defence spokesperson comes to leaf. now, we've got the nato summit, mortgages, our rivers, our seas. loads to talk about. of great substance. so, get in touch. and send us a text. tell is your name and where you are from. get your messages in now. 0k, ok, this bbc presenter, this story, stories seem to be tumbling out at the moment, is it any of our

business? nicole in derbyshire, natasha in huddersfield, paul gilbert is still with us. really interesting what you're saying as well. nicole in derbyshire, you very skilfully gave us a one—word answer before, and good morning, natasha, by the way. why do you think this is our business, nicole? taste by the way. why do you think this is our business, nicole?— our business, nicole? we pay our licence fee. _ our business, nicole? we pay our licence fee, and _ our business, nicole? we pay our licence fee, and that _ our business, nicole? we pay our licence fee, and that then - our business, nicole? we pay our licence fee, and that then in - our business, nicole? we pay our licence fee, and that then in turn| licence fee, and that then in turn pays the person's wages. and i want to know what that money that has been going out of my bank account each month to pay the licence fee, what have we been funding? this person is in a position of trust and privilege, and as a licence fee payer, i have been providing money for him to have allegedly been paying this person. and thatjust doesn't sit well with me. for paying this person. and that 'ust doesn't sit well with me. for mum doesnt doesn't sit well with me. for mum doesn't sit — doesn't sit well with me. for mum doesn't sit well _ doesn't sit well with me. for mum doesn't sit well with _ doesn't sit well with me. for mum doesn't sit well with a _ doesn't sit well with me. for mum doesn't sit well with a lot - doesn't sit well with me. for mum doesn't sit well with a lot of - doesn't sit well with a lot of

people. nothing unlawful. would you like to see a ledger of everything he, or anybody else, like to see a ledger of everything he, oranybody else, me, like to see a ledger of everything he, or anybody else, me, anybody else who is paid a big lack of money by the bbc, do you want to know everything we spend our money on? no. because obviously your wages, what you spend your wages on, however, if something illegal has gone on, then yeah, we have been something that is illegal. that gone on, then yeah, we have been something that is illegal.— something that is illegal. that is a different issue, _ something that is illegal. that is a different issue, isn't _ something that is illegal. that is a different issue, isn't it? _ something that is illegal. that is a different issue, isn't it? because i different issue, isn't it? because there is no proof that anything unlawful has happened. and the young person involved in the initial allegations made clear through their lawyer that there was nothing unlawful. so, on the basis, let's proceed on that assumption, on the basis that there is nothing unlawful, is it any of your business, any of my business? but

then the other person has turned around and said that he broke lockdown rules. so surely that is unlawful. . lockdown rules. so surely that is unlawful. , ., lockdown rules. so surely that is unlawful._ and - lockdown rules. so surely that is unlawful._ and that unlawful. there is that. and that erson unlawful. there is that. and that person was _ unlawful. there is that. and that person was allegedly _ unlawful. there is that. and that person was allegedly also - unlawful. there is that. and that person was allegedly also paid i person was allegedly also paid money. but i think this is just scratching the surface. what if there are other people who don't feel comfortable in coming forward until this person is named? in the media, there is stuff like this goes on, we know this goes on and what if there are other people sat there going, maybe i should say something, but this person is not named so they won't stand forward?— won't stand forward? former labour mp lord mann _ won't stand forward? former labour mp lord mann has _ won't stand forward? former labour mp lord mann has got _ won't stand forward? former labour mp lord mann has got in _ won't stand forward? former labour mp lord mann has got in touch - won't stand forward? former labour mp lord mann has got in touch with| mp lord mann has got in touch with us, john mann. nicole made a telling

point, when i said nothing unlawful, she said there was a suggestion in one of the oak allegations, at the time we were in tier 3 lockdown, lockdown rules were broken, on that basis, is it in the public interest to know which highly paid presenter broke those rules, john? imisti. to know which highly paid presenter broke those rules, john?— broke those rules, john? well, if an one broke those rules, john? well, if anyone has _ broke those rules, john? well, if anyone has got _ broke those rules, john? well, if anyone has got information - broke those rules, john? well, if anyone has got information on i broke those rules, john? well, if. anyone has got information on that, the police have got the appropriate powers to act, and they have done on occasion, as we have seen in the past. so, there is a system for that and what the law is. but the idea of doubting somebody, in any context, is anathema to the way the country should run. and in particular there has been a suggestion that one clever way to do it would be for an mp, or indeed a lord to get up and to use parliamentary privilege to do

so, that would be wholly unethical and wholly inappropriate, and this doesn't warrant that. that it would be prurient for any mp to try and do so, for example, at prime minister's questions today. and i think there is a danger that someone for the sake of getting themselves in the headlines might try and do that and select a name in before the speaker in parliament would certainly rule them out of order, but it is too late, if you have already outed someone by naming them. it has happened in the past. a super injunction in relation to ryan giggs, who we can name because it was broken in parliament... i am was broken in parliament... i am drawin: was broken in parliament... i am drawing no _ was broken in parliament... i am drawing no parallel, _ was broken in parliament... i am drawing no parallel, obviously. hang on. a paedophile who was a teacher of hours at school was named in

parliament by ian blackford, and that was a significant moment. so, as i think you're saying, there are... and ryan giggs, of course, was cleared. there are circumstances where it is entirely appropriate, john. ., , ., ., .. john. there, and if there is a ma'or issue that hasn't d john. there, and if there is a ma'or issue that hasn't come i john. there, and if there is a ma'or issue that hasn't come out, i john. there, and if there is a ma'or issue that hasn't come out, and i john. there, and if there is a major issue that hasn't come out, and i i john. there, and if there is a major| issue that hasn't come out, and i in relation to a number of issues in relation to a number of issues in relation to a number of issues in relation to paedophilia and names, if there was an absolute certainty and the name wasn't out then i think that can be appropriate, but there is no such thing as absolute privilege in parliament, it is only there if there is a specific reason, and if it is done maliciously, for no good reason, the mp themselves could end up in legal problems, there is no absolute privilege. so, there is no absolute privilege. so, there isn't a comparison. in the

case you cited, in relation to scotland and schools et cetera, if i had been approached and asked for a specific reason to name somebody, and there was a good reason, then i would have done so. but this is not... it would be prurient for any mp or lord to get up and name anybody in relation to this, because this is not an issue of that nature. and there is a huge, huge difference, and ifeel and there is a huge, huge difference, and i feel that and there is a huge, huge difference, and ifeel that no and there is a huge, huge difference, and i feel that no mp would do so. {lit difference, and i feel that no mp would do so-_ would do so. of course there is, es. would do so. of course there is, yes- nicole _ would do so. of course there is, yes- nicole in — would do so. of course there is, yes. nicole in derbyshire, - yes. nicole in derbyshire, interesting to hear your take on it. natasha in huddersfield, good morning. hi. natasha in huddersfield, good morninu. .. .. ., morning. hi, good morning, how are ou? i am morning. hi, good morning, how are you? i am five. _ morning. hi, good morning, how are you? i am five, what _ morning. hi, good morning, how are you? i am five, what do _ morning. hi, good morning, how are you? i am five, what do you - morning. hi, good morning, how are you? i am five, what do you think, i you? i am five, what do you think, is it our you? i am five, what do you think, is it your business, _ you? i am five, what do you think, is it your business, is _ you? i am five, what do you think, is it your business, is it _ you? i am five, what do you think, is it your business, is it my - is it your business, is it my business, is it nicole's business,

is itjohn mann's business? is it any of our business? i is it john mann's business? is it any of our business?— is it john mann's business? is it any of our business? i think we are missin: a any of our business? i think we are missing a major — any of our business? i think we are missing a major point, _ any of our business? i think we are missing a major point, i _ any of our business? i think we are missing a major point, i think- any of our business? i think we are missing a major point, i think the l missing a major point, i think the way in which the story has been presented is entirely inappropriate and has ramifications for both sides. we're hearing a lot about how this is not an illegal practice, that nothing illegal has gone on, and the keyword is allegation, but we're missing the fact that, i have heard lots about how these young person was aged 17 so therefore there is nothing illegal that has gone on, regardless of lockdown rules, the bigger picture is that, i am a orjust myself and i've worked with lots of vulnerable people —— i am a criminologist myself, and although the legal age is 16, we have a vulnerability issue within law, which covers up to the age of 25 sometimes, depending on the circumstances of the individual involved, so we don't know the full picture yet. and we need to focus on

some of the bigger issues within this story. for instance, i have heard legal professionals talking about how the aggression that was received in text message could be justified for being outed. we're missing the morality of the situation. all we know so far is that this individual is married. so, there is a morality element there, and also there is no justification, there is an actual illegal act called malicious communications in which, perhaps, again, it is alleged, it is all allegations, we don't know what those messages say, we don't know whether it's into that act of criminality or not, and we'd also don't know about the young person involved, we don't know if they would be classified as a vulnerable young person, all we know is that money was exchanged for pictures, so far, and we are getting... for me, it is bad press. we're not fact checking and we're

letting information go, rather than the bigger picture, and as nicole has actually said, we shouldn't be comparing this to paedophilia or anything of this nature, but we don't know that this isn't part of something bigger, like grooming. and the problem is bad publicity again with the bbc where things have gone under the radar and things haven't been published, we do hear all the time, joe blogs in leeds is accused of this, and they publish his name and his age, just not his address anymore. so, ifjoe public can be named, the question comes in, why should somebody who works in a position of trust and authority? and it could, as nicole did mention, dissuade other people from coming forward. the legal system isn't the most supportive area in which victims of crime can come forward but again i think it is important to acknowledge that this is the

victim's family that have come forward, orthe victim's family that have come forward, or the young person's family that have come forward, should i say, and not the young person themselves, and i know that the young person's family have questioned how the young person has got a lawyer. i think we need to be more clear and transparent about both sides of this story before talking about whether or not we need to know who it is.— to know who it is. fascinating, thank you- _ to know who it is. fascinating, thank you. dan _ to know who it is. fascinating, thank you. dan in _ to know who it is. fascinating, thank you. dan in leicester. i to know who it is. fascinating, l thank you. dan in leicester. hi, dan, what are your thoughts? hi. dan, what are your thoughts? hi, nic . dan, what are your thoughts? hi, nicky. honestly this makes me very sad. nicky. honestly this makes me very sad you _ nicky. honestly this makes me very sad. you guys, as the media, and you are part _ sad. you guys, as the media, and you are part of— sad. you guys, as the media, and you are part of it. — sad. you guys, as the media, and you are part of it, and i know you're one— are part of it, and i know you're one of— are part of it, and i know you're one of the — are part of it, and i know you're one of the good guys, but the media as a whole. — one of the good guys, but the media as a whole, and this includes social media _ as a whole, and this includes social media and — as a whole, and this includes social media and everything, it is lowest common— media and everything, it is lowest common denominator stuff yet again, and they— common denominator stuff yet again, and they arm more interested in the headlines. _ and they arm more interested in the headlines, it seems, than the truth. and as _ headlines, it seems, than the truth. and as far— headlines, it seems, than the truth. and as far as — headlines, it seems, than the truth. and as far as we know there has been no criminal— and as far as we know there has been no criminal wrongdoing yet here, so

in my— no criminal wrongdoing yet here, so in my opinion, absolutely, the law is right— in my opinion, absolutely, the law is right to — in my opinion, absolutely, the law is right to allow this person anonymity until at least a charge has been — anonymity until at least a charge has been made. but a lot of the media. — has been made. but a lot of the media, they don't care about that and they— media, they don't care about that and they don't care if they get to the truth — and they don't care if they get to the truth or not you can have somebody's name destroyed that may have done _ somebody's name destroyed that may have done absolutely nothing wrong, as i have done absolutely nothing wrong, as i said _ have done absolutely nothing wrong, as i said in _ have done absolutely nothing wrong, as i said in my text, the wolves are at the _ as i said in my text, the wolves are at the door. — as i said in my text, the wolves are at the door, baying for blood. ravenous _ at the door, baying for blood. ravenous appetite for the salacious. yeah, and until we as a society and i'm yeah, and until we as a society and i'm sorry— yeah, and until we as a society and i'm sorry if— yeah, and until we as a society and i'm sorry if this sounds philosophical or idealistic or whatever. .. philosophical or idealistic or whatever... go philosophical or idealistic or whatever. . ._ philosophical or idealistic or whatever. . .- what | philosophical or idealistic or - whatever. . .- what they whatever... go for it. what they want is to _ whatever... go for it. what they want is to be — whatever... go for it. what they want is to be able _ whatever... go for it. what they want is to be able to _ whatever... go for it. what they want is to be able to name - whatever... go for it. what they want is to be able to name that| want is to be able to name that person— want is to be able to name that person and bully them, we're talking about— person and bully them, we're talking about bullying here, which the media seems _ about bullying here, which the media seems to— about bullying here, which the media seems to select certain people that it is ok _ seems to select certain people that it is ok to— seems to select certain people that it is ok to bully, in my opinion nobody— it is ok to bully, in my opinion nobody should be allowed to be bullied. — nobody should be allowed to be bullied, untilwe nobody should be allowed to be bullied, until we learn that even if that person has done something wrong. — that person has done something wrong, even if wrongdoing has been proven. _ wrong, even if wrongdoing has been proven, they deserve to be treated as a human — proven, they deserve to be treated as a human being, and the dehumanisation of these people,

whatever— dehumanisation of these people, whatever they've done, until we learn _ whatever they've done, until we learn that — whatever they've done, until we learn that as a society, we will never — learn that as a society, we will never change, we will never move on, things— never change, we will never move on, things will— never change, we will never move on, things will never, ever get any better — things will never, ever get any better. that is what makes me so sad _ better. that is what makes me so sad. .. , , , sad. the other thing is, every news story comes _ sad. the other thing is, every news story comes out. — sad. the other thing is, every news story comes out, and _ sad. the other thing is, every news story comes out, and in _ sad. the other thing is, every news story comes out, and in all - sad. the other thing is, every news story comes out, and in all cases i story comes out, and in all cases where there is something like this, there is a drip drip drip every day, there is a drip drip drip every day, there is a drip drip drip every day, there is that kind of dopamine hit, look at that, something new, something new... check the phone, check the phone!— check the phone! yeah. i mean, i su ose check the phone! yeah. i mean, i suppose a — check the phone! yeah. i mean, i suppose a lot _ check the phone! yeah. i mean, i suppose a lot of _ check the phone! yeah. i mean, i suppose a lot of people, - check the phone! yeah. i mean, i suppose a lot of people, may - check the phone! yeah. i mean, i suppose a lot of people, may be | check the phone! yeah. i mean, i. suppose a lot of people, may be me included, thinking, who is it, maybe someone really famous? that kind of voyeuristic thing. that does not make it right. there is quite a prominent ex—bbcjournalist make it right. there is quite a prominent ex—bbc journalist who make it right. there is quite a prominent ex—bbcjournalist who is now an independent that seems to sell themselves on social media as some kind of bastion of free speech, she was saying in one of her videos

that it was absolutely wrong that this person had not been named by the bbc and had been classified as under investigation, and in my view, that in itself is entirely wrong. you mentioned cliff richard, what happened to cliff richard was utterly appalling. disgraceful. matthew kelly, _ utterly appalling. disgraceful. matthew kelly, what - utterly appalling. disgraceful. matthew kelly, what he - utterly appalling. disgraceful. matthew kelly, what he went| utterly appalling. disgraceful. - matthew kelly, what he went through. gordon kaye, back in the day. yeah, they did nothing wrong, these people. but their lives, potentially tainted for ever. we've learned nothing. we've had the phone hacking scandals, we've had the death of princess diana, we've had everything else, we've had the way that prince harry has been treated, whatever you think of it, the media never learns. like i say, the wolves are at the door baying for blood once again. abs. door baying for blood once again. a couple of texts. legally at the moment the name of the presenter cannot be made public however iioo and 10% supportjeremy vine's statement that if that person is indeed innocent then verily he

should present himself to prevent his colleagues from being wrongly aligned in the current getting game. that is from paul. jeremy was saying on this programme this morning he went to the springsteen concert on saturday, lucky him, and was advised by his other half to wear a baseball cap lest he get any hassle for all of this. another text, we need to know the names, but we do need, sorry, we don't need to know the names but we do need a free press to highlight when organisations are not playing a fair game but individuals should be anonymous until prosecuted. this pompous and since when did the media become a lynch mob? especially after the way flip schofield was treated, i really don't like the direction of travel. that is by pete. this is self obsession by the media, says this one, taken to a new level. please report actual, substantive news, there is so much going on in the world. coming up at ten o'clock, our

panel of mps, and you can ask them anything you like. three very interesting members of parliament coming up. you were a member of parliament, —— neil parish, good morning. it is nice to talk to you again. because you come straight out with this stuff and you're honest, and just to remind people, you were observed watching some pawn in the house of commons. and then all hell broke loose, right? it house of commons. and then all hell broke loose, right?— broke loose, right? it did. whether it warranted _ broke loose, right? it did. whether it warranted quite _ broke loose, right? it did. whether it warranted quite the _ broke loose, right? it did. whether it warranted quite the internationalj it warranted quite the international media coverage, i don't know, but time moves on. and i move on with it. so what i would like to say on this catch is that i think i got some sympathy for the bbc because they have very much to look after they have very much to look after the individual and also it has got to be proven, their stuff. and i think the sun is flying a few kites, dare i say it, and i think that now

the police should investigate any of these things that may be criminal, breaking lockdown rules or whatever it may be, there may be some victims involved which really do need to be helped, but what we don't want is this continual sort of race to the bottom, really, trial by media. and this is what it is now, and i think is out enough is out there now for the police to investigate and then for it to be dealt with properly without the individual being named. the problem you have is when no individual is named, everybody goes around saying, is it you, is it you...? and obviously that is what is happening at the moment. i think we reallyjust need to pause for breath and just calm down. but i'm afraid the media, once it gets a frenzy, very difficult to calm it. and if you tell some body to calm down that is probably the worst thing you can do to them, they usually get more worked up. seriously there could well be some

serious implications, if these accusations are right and proper. but are they? we don't know, do we? and i think it isjust but are they? we don't know, do we? and i think it is just getting worse and worse, let's give some space and time to get this sorted but i rather fear now that they will just keep going until the individual is named, i suspect. going until the individual is named, i susect. , .. going until the individual is named, isusect. , .. going until the individual is named, isusect. . .. . i suspect. neil, should you have been named? _ i suspect. neil, should you have been named? i— i suspect. neil, should you have been named? i mean, _ i suspect. neil, should you have been named? i mean, i- i suspect. neil, should you have been named? i mean, i was- i suspect. neil, should you have i been named? i mean, i was named i suspect. neil, should you have - been named? i mean, i was named by m own been named? i mean, i was named by my own side. — been named? i mean, i was named by my own side. i — been named? i mean, i was named by my own side, i was _ been named? i mean, i was named by my own side, i was stupid _ been named? i mean, i was named by my own side, i was stupid to - been named? i mean, i was named by my own side, i was stupid to do - been named? i mean, i was named by my own side, i was stupid to do it - my own side, i was stupid to do it but of course, i was stupid to myself and very stupid to what i was doing and the place in where i was doing and the place in where i was doing it but i was actually not causing any harm anybody else, i do notjustify it causing any harm anybody else, i do not justify it for one causing any harm anybody else, i do notjustify it for one moment but it is an interesting one when it should have been one of those things where had i... i made a mistake, i owned up had i... i made a mistake, i owned up to itand had i... i made a mistake, i owned up to it and i had i... i made a mistake, i owned up to itand i resigned, had i... i made a mistake, i owned up to it and i resigned, had had i... i made a mistake, i owned up to itand i resigned, had it had i... i made a mistake, i owned up to it and i resigned, had it not been blown out in the media i would never have done it again, would i? but that is live, move on, parish, don't get too worked up about it.

but i do feel sometimes the media, once they have something, and of course, what they do, like phillip schofield, everybody, once they have got you in their sights they will destroy you, and i was a good mp, i was a good, i chaired the select committee well, i worked very hard. and you were involved in a lot of great causes. i and you were involved in a lot of great causes-— and you were involved in a lot of great causes. i know, welfare and all sorts, great causes. i know, welfare and all sorts. but _ great causes. i know, welfare and all sorts, but you _ great causes. i know, welfare and all sorts, but you are _ great causes. i know, welfare and all sorts, but you are totally - great causes. i know, welfare and all sorts, but you are totally and l all sorts, but you are totally and utterly destroyed. mine was self—inflicted but of course did it warrant quite the punishment that was dished out? who knows? but that is... i have moved on and i did the right thing by resigning, but i think this case is a very, very difficult one, because i have sympathy all the way round, and i would just ask the media sometimes, could they be just a little bit kinder? i'm not sure it is in their nature, but i think individual

members of the media have a kindness in their hearts, but i think when it becomes a mob, doesn't it, really? three orfour days, becomes a mob, doesn't it, really? three or four days, they investigated me, there wasn't anything else to find, but of course thatis anything else to find, but of course that is what they do, and therefore this is what they are doing now, and it may or may not be true. so let's pause for breath, let's give the individuals on both sides chance to explain themselves, let the police vesta gate, and let it live, but whether it will, i very much doubt it. —— let the police investigate. neil parish mentions kindness... yes, well, i'm not sure, it is interesting _ yes, well, i'm not sure, it is interesting in the discussions we have _ interesting in the discussions we have had — interesting in the discussions we have had that we have had discussions about the duty of the media. _ discussions about the duty of the media, and i don't think the duty of the media _ media, and i don't think the duty of the media is— media, and i don't think the duty of the media is to be kind, the duty of

the media is to be kind, the duty of the media _ the media is to be kind, the duty of the media is— the media is to be kind, the duty of the media is to be kind, the duty of the media is to report the news... with— the media is to report the news... with humanity, perhaps?- the media is to report the news... with humanity, perhaps? well, that de-ends with humanity, perhaps? well, that de ends on with humanity, perhaps? well, that depends on the _ with humanity, perhaps? well, that depends on the editorial _ with humanity, perhaps? well, that depends on the editorial decisions i depends on the editorial decisions taken _ depends on the editorial decisions taken by— depends on the editorial decisions taken by the particular media organisation. ultimately what the media _ organisation. ultimately what the media have got to do is to operate within— media have got to do is to operate within the — media have got to do is to operate within the law. there was a very good _ within the law. there was a very good point — within the law. there was a very good point made about what was called _ good point made about what was called the titbits of information that are — called the titbits of information that are coming out. there is an argument — that are coming out. there is an argument to say the reason that it is coming — argument to say the reason that it is coming out this way is because of the privacy— is coming out this way is because of the privacy laws preventing the whole — the privacy laws preventing the whole story being published. so, you know, _ whole story being published. so, you know. it _ whole story being published. so, you know. it is _ whole story being published. so, you know, it is not, i think you can't sort _ know, it is not, i think you can't sort of— know, it is not, i think you can't sort of lay— know, it is not, i think you can't sort of lay this entirely at the nredia's— sort of lay this entirely at the media's door. but the other thing is this, media's door. but the other thing is this. you _ media's door. but the other thing is this. you and — media's door. but the other thing is this, you and i well know that pre-levitt_ this, you and i well know that pre—levitt and inquiry, what was happening — pre—levitt and inquiry, what was happening in the media was a lot worse _ happening in the media was a lot worse than what is happening now. ——

pre-leveson — worse than what is happening now. —— pre—leveson. and in a sense what we are seeing _ pre—leveson. and in a sense what we are seeing now is a much more moderated _ are seeing now is a much more moderated media, because of the developing of the privacy laws as welt _ developing of the privacy laws as welt and — developing of the privacy laws as well. and so we are actually in a better— well. and so we are actually in a better place, talking from a legal point _ better place, talking from a legal point of _ better place, talking from a legal point of view, in terms of what the media. _ point of view, in terms of what the media. this — point of view, in terms of what the media, this trial by media, point. because — media, this trial by media, point. because there are a lot of celebrities back in the day who would — celebrities back in the day who would say to you, believe me, this is nothing — would say to you, believe me, this is nothing like what we had to deal with _ is nothing like what we had to deal with but _ is nothing like what we had to deal with. but there was another point made _ with. but there was another point made about other potential victims... made about other potential victims- - -— made about other potential victims... ~ ., .. .. .. made about other potential victims... ., .. .. .. .. victims... we have got to move on, paul victims... we have got to move on, paul. we victims... we have got to move on, paul- we are _ victims... we have got to move on, paul. we are out _ victims. .. we have got to move on, paul. we are out of— victims... we have got to move on, paul. we are out of time, _ victims... we have got to move on, paul. we are out of time, but - victims... we have got to move on, paul. we are out of time, but you i paul. we are out of time, but you have been excellent this morning. if i may say so. great points from our listeners and viewers and our guests, thank you. prime minister's questions from 12 — the deputies stepping in again today. dowden v rayner.

between now and i! i'll be joined by a panel of mps ready to take your questions. you can ask about the nato summit. you can ask about the nato summit. you can ask about the nato summit. you can ask about ukraine, thames water stop their bosses are appearing in front of mps today. we will give you a chunk of that. you can ask about mortgages. it is up to you. today it's — dame andrea leadsom for the conservatives, thangam debbonaire from labour, the shadow leader of the house and the liberal democrat defence spokesperson richard foord. now for the news with al. fresh allegations have been made about a bbc presenter who's said to have paid a teenager for explicit photos.

the sun newspaper says another individual, who's 23, claims the presenter broke covid restrictions to visit them at their home, after they met online. the bbc hasn't verified the latest claims. president zelensky is meeting rishi sunak at a nato summit in lithuania this morning, ahead of long—term security agreement being signed by the g7 nations. mr sunak said the pact has the potential to "return peace to europe" following russia's invasion. the bank of england has said this morning that uk households are facing higher debt burdens because of rising interest rates and high living costs. in its financial stability report, it warned that the cost of mortgage payments is likely to continue rising. and a first edition of the hobbit has sold for more than 10 thousand pounds, after being found at a charity shop in dundee. the manager initially thought the book was too old to sell — before realising how rare it was, and putting it on an online auction site.

what a great line—up of mps we have for you. what a great line—up of mps we have foryou. let what a great line—up of mps we have for you. let mejust what a great line—up of mps we have for you. let me just tell you, what a great line—up of mps we have for you. let mejust tell you, dame andrea, first time on our mps panel. good morning to you. i like to do an interesting fact for people, a good one, hobbies are schemes and cocktails —— skiing and cocktails. manhattan? abs. cocktails -- skiing and cocktails. manhattan?— cocktails -- skiing and cocktails. manhattan? . . ., , ., , manhattan? a french martini, please. what is in the — manhattan? a french martini, please. what is in the french _ manhattan? a french martini, please. what is in the french martini, - what is in the french martini, shaken but not stirred? vodka and --inea le shaken but not stirred? vodka and pineapple juice _ shaken but not stirred? vodka and pineapple juice and _ shaken but not stirred? vodka and pineapple juice and it _ shaken but not stirred? vodka and pineapple juice and it has - shaken but not stirred? vodka and pineapple juice and it has got - shaken but not stirred? vodka and pineapple juice and it has got a - pineapple juice and it has got a raspberry liqueur and some lime juice and a couple of drops of rose water. ~ ., ., ,., ., , �* water. what about that. isn't the roblem water. what about that. isn't the problem with _ water. what about that. isn't the problem with cocktails _ water. what about that. isn't the problem with cocktails as - water. what about that. isn't the

problem with cocktails as you - water. what about that. isn't the i problem with cocktails as you have one, such down and then you think another? find that? hat one, such down and then you think another? find that?— one, such down and then you think another? find that? not really, one is enough. — another? find that? not really, one is enough. all— another? find that? not really, one is enough, all things _ another? find that? not really, one is enough, all things in _ another? find that? not really, one is enough, all things in moderationl is enough, all things in moderation of the late queen used to say. pond of the late queen used to say. and we have the _ of the late queen used to say. and we have the defence spokesperson for the lib dems, richard, hello. a qualified mountain leader, you take groups of people hiking and map reading, must be very satisfying? it reading, must be very satisfying? it is, it's been awhile since i've been involved _ is, it's been awhile since i've been involved in— is, it's been awhile since i've been involved in leading groups and skip outs and _ involved in leading groups and skip outs and even longer since i was involved — outs and even longer since i was involved in— outs and even longer since i was involved in reading groups of soldiers. _ involved in reading groups of soldiers, but certainly what i like to do _ soldiers, but certainly what i like to do my — soldiers, but certainly what i like to do my spare time, i know in the days— to do my spare time, i know in the days when— to do my spare time, i know in the days when politics of amiable get back to — days when politics of amiable get back to. �* days when politics of amiable get back to. . ., ., , ., .. ., back to. and thangam, shadow leader ofthe back to. and thangam, shadow leader of the house- — back to. and thangam, shadow leader of the house. talking _ back to. and thangam, shadow leader of the house. talking about _ back to. and thangam, shadow leader of the house. talking about your - of the house. talking about your cello... i have not had a cocktail, i promise you. talking about your

cello playing last time but i love the fact that you have a telescope on your back garden and you like observing space.— on your back garden and you like observing space. yes, we don't get fantastic light _ observing space. yes, we don't get fantastic light in _ observing space. yes, we don't get fantastic light in the _ observing space. yes, we don't get fantastic light in the middle - observing space. yes, we don't get fantastic light in the middle of- fantastic light in the middle of bristol. — fantastic light in the middle of bristol. but _ fantastic light in the middle of bristol, but there _ fantastic light in the middle of bristol, but there is _ fantastic light in the middle of bristol, but there is the - fantastic light in the middle of bristol, but there is the dark i fantastic light in the middle of- bristol, but there is the dark skies reserve _ bristol, but there is the dark skies reserve in— bristol, but there is the dark skies reserve in the _ bristol, but there is the dark skies reserve in the brecon _ bristol, but there is the dark skies reserve in the brecon beacons - bristol, but there is the dark skiesj reserve in the brecon beacons and bristol, but there is the dark skies - reserve in the brecon beacons and my telescope _ reserve in the brecon beacons and my telescope in _ reserve in the brecon beacons and my telescope in the — reserve in the brecon beacons and my telescope in the brecon _ reserve in the brecon beacons and my telescope in the brecon beacons- reserve in the brecon beacons and my telescope in the brecon beacons are i telescope in the brecon beacons are -ood telescope in the brecon beacons are good friends. — telescope in the brecon beacons are good friends. you _ telescope in the brecon beacons are good friends, you can _ telescope in the brecon beacons are good friends, you can see _ telescope in the brecon beacons are good friends, you can see the - telescope in the brecon beacons are good friends, you can see the milky| good friends, you can see the milky way on _ good friends, you can see the milky way on a _ good friends, you can see the milky way on a good _ good friends, you can see the milky way on a good night. _ good friends, you can see the milky way on a good night. we _ good friends, you can see the milky way on a good night. we i- good friends, you can see the milky way on a good night. we i spent. good friends, you can see the milky way on a good night. we i spent a i way on a good night. we i spent a lot of— way on a good night. we i spent a lot of time — way on a good night. we i spent a lot of time on— way on a good night. we i spent a lot of time on the _ way on a good night. we i spent a lot of time on the western - way on a good night. we i spent a . lot of time on the western highlands and sometimes _ lot of time on the western highlands and sometimes after— lot of time on the western highlands and sometimes after a _ lot of time on the western highlands and sometimes after a french - lot of time on the western highlandsl and sometimes after a french martini will go _ and sometimes after a french martini will go out _ and sometimes after a french martini will go out and — and sometimes after a french martini will go out and have _ and sometimes after a french martini will go out and have a _ and sometimes after a french martini will go out and have a look— and sometimes after a french martini will go out and have a look at - and sometimes after a french martini will go out and have a look at the - will go out and have a look at the sky and _ will go out and have a look at the sky and it— will go out and have a look at the sky and it is— will go out and have a look at the sky and it is just _ will go out and have a look at the sky and it is just overwhelming . will go out and have a look at the . sky and it isjust overwhelming when you see _ sky and it isjust overwhelming when you see the — sky and it isjust overwhelming when you see the sky— sky and it isjust overwhelming when you see the sky with _ sky and it isjust overwhelming when you see the sky with no— sky and it isjust overwhelming when you see the sky with no light - you see the sky with no light pollution _ you see the sky with no light pollution and _ you see the sky with no light pollution and the _ you see the sky with no light pollution and the ancient - you see the sky with no light - pollution and the ancient mariner, so inspiring — pollution and the ancient mariner, so inspiring and _ pollution and the ancient mariner, so inspiring and poetic— pollution and the ancient mariner, so inspiring and poetic as- pollution and the ancient mariner, so inspiring and poetic as the - pollution and the ancient mariner, so inspiring and poetic as the it. so inspiring and poetic as the leaves you breathless. get in so inspiring and poetic as the- leaves you breathless. get in touch, ask your question, they will be navigating the questions for you

a quick one, mopping up a very interesting discussion we are talking about the ethics and amorality of privacy laws, quick answer of you, as are any of our business who this presenter is? definitely eyes, yeah. is that quick enough? definitely eyes, yeah. is that quick enou~h? . definitely eyes, yeah. is that quick enou~h? , .. definitely eyes, yeah. is that quick enou~h? . .. ., definitely eyes, yeah. is that quick enough?_ it i enough? lets expand on that. it definitely is _ enough? lets expand on that. it definitely is because _ enough? lets expand on that. it definitely is because there - enough? lets expand on that. it definitely is because there is - enough? lets expand on that. it definitely is because there is a i definitely is because there is a whole raft of abuse that goes on thatis whole raft of abuse that goes on that is definitely in the public interest and although anti—deal with. h0 interest and although anti-deal with. .. . , ., , with. no evidence there is any abuse, absolutely _ with. no evidence there is any abuse, absolutely not, - with. no evidence there is any abuse, absolutely not, there i with. no evidence there is any| abuse, absolutely not, there is with. no evidence there is any - abuse, absolutely not, there is more difficult to understand _

abuse, absolutely not, there is more difficult to understand when - abuse, absolutely not, there is more difficult to understand when serious | difficult to understand when serious allegations are made, and on the other side of the coin is also very important if there is nothing to see here and there is nothing illegal or gone wrong then there are a proper apology is made and that the individual is cleared, so we are now individual is cleared, so we are now in a situation where this needs to be resolved and are drawing their own conclusions, that is incredibly unfortunate, and i think any politician would say we are often at the but end of accusations that effectively have to go unanswered because itjust puts fuel on the fire and i do think there are questions to be asked of press, media who have really feel that this story, so whether it has actual miss doing within are not, it now needs to be properly aired and resolved one way or the other. taste to be properly aired and resolved one way or the other.— one way or the other. we have a riaht one way or the other. we have a ri . ht to one way or the other. we have a right to know? _ one way or the other. we have a right to know? at _ one way or the other. we have a right to know? at the _ one way or the other. we have a right to know? at the moment i one way or the other. we have a. right to know? at the moment we don't know _ right to know? at the moment we don't know what _ right to know? at the moment we don't know what it _ right to know? at the moment we don't know what it is _ right to know? at the moment we don't know what it is that - right to know? at the moment we don't know what it is that is - don't know what it is that is actually— don't know what it is that is actually happening, - don't know what it is that is actually happening, and - don't know what it is that is. actually happening, and there don't know what it is that is- actually happening, and there is a police _ actually happening, and there is a police investigation _ actually happening, and there is a police investigation taking - actually happening, and there is a

police investigation taking place i police investigation taking place and we — police investigation taking place and we don't _ police investigation taking place and we don't have _ police investigation taking place and we don't have a _ police investigation taking place and we don't have a right - police investigation taking place and we don't have a right to- police investigation taking place i and we don't have a right to know who is— and we don't have a right to know who is being _ and we don't have a right to know who is being investigated - and we don't have a right to know who is being investigated by- and we don't have a right to know who is being investigated by the i who is being investigated by the police. — who is being investigated by the police. we — who is being investigated by the police, we need _ who is being investigated by the police, we need to— who is being investigated by the police, we need to let _ who is being investigated by the police, we need to let the - who is being investigated by the| police, we need to let the police investigation _ police, we need to let the police investigation take _ police, we need to let the police investigation take its _ police, we need to let the police investigation take its course, - police, we need to let the police investigation take its course, i. investigation take its course, i think— investigation take its course, i think it — investigation take its course, i think it is _ investigation take its course, i think it is right— investigation take its course, i think it is right that _ investigation take its course, i think it is right that the - investigation take its course, i think it is right that the bbc. investigation take its course, i. think it is right that the bbc have announced — think it is right that the bbc have announced they— think it is right that the bbc have announced they are _ think it is right that the bbc have announced they are going - think it is right that the bbc have announced they are going to - think it is right that the bbc have . announced they are going to review their complaints _ announced they are going to review their complaints procedure, - announced they are going to review their complaints procedure, we - announced they are going to review their complaints procedure, we callj their complaints procedure, we call for that— their complaints procedure, we call for that sometime _ their complaints procedure, we call for that sometime ago, _ their complaints procedure, we call for that sometime ago, i _ their complaints procedure, we call for that sometime ago, i think- their complaints procedure, we call for that sometime ago, i think that| for that sometime ago, i think that is right. _ for that sometime ago, i think that is right. i_ for that sometime ago, i think that is right. ialso— for that sometime ago, i think that is right, i also feel— for that sometime ago, i think that is right, i also feel for— for that sometime ago, i think that is right, i also feel for the - for that sometime ago, i think that is right, i also feel for the people i is right, i also feel for the people involved — is right, i also feel for the people involved in— is right, i also feel for the people involved in the _ is right, i also feel for the people involved in the situation - is right, i also feel for the people involved in the situation and - is right, i also feel for the people. involved in the situation and that's -ot involved in the situation and that's got to— involved in the situation and that's got to include _ involved in the situation and that's got to include people _ involved in the situation and that's got to include people like - involved in the situation and that's got to include people like you - involved in the situation and that's| got to include people like you have been caught— got to include people like you have been caught up— got to include people like you have been caught up in— got to include people like you have been caught up in leicester- been caught up in leicester absolutely— been caught up in leicester absolutely no _ been caught up in leicester absolutely no fault - been caught up in leicester absolutely no fault of - been caught up in leicester absolutely no fault of youri been caught up in leicester- absolutely no fault of your own. there _ absolutely no fault of your own. there are — absolutely no fault of your own. there are real— absolutely no fault of your own. there are real human _ absolutely no fault of your own. there are real human beings i absolutely no fault of your own. i there are real human beings and human— there are real human beings and human suffering _ there are real human beings and human suffering taking - there are real human beings and human suffering taking place - there are real human beings and human suffering taking place at. there are real human beings and . human suffering taking place at the moment. _ human suffering taking place at the moment. we — human suffering taking place at the moment, we don't— human suffering taking place at the moment, we don't know— human suffering taking place at the moment, we don't know exactly- human suffering taking place at the i moment, we don't know exactly what is happening. — moment, we don't know exactly what is happening. that's— moment, we don't know exactly what is happening, that's why _ moment, we don't know exactly what is happening, that's why we - moment, we don't know exactly what is happening, that's why we have - moment, we don't know exactly what is happening, that's why we have to i is happening, that's why we have to let the _ is happening, that's why we have to let the police — is happening, that's why we have to let the police investigation - is happening, that's why we have to let the police investigation take - let the police investigation take its course _ let the police investigation take its course. . ., , let the police investigation take itscourse. . ., , ., , let the police investigation take itscourse. . ., , ., its course. richard, is it any other business? — its course. richard, is it any other business? i _ its course. richard, is it any other business? i do _ its course. richard, is it any other business? i do think— its course. richard, is it any other business? i do think that - its course. richard, is it any other business? i do think that when i its course. richard, is it any other| business? i do think that when you have been wrongly _ business? i do think that when you have been wrongly accused, - business? i do think that when you have been wrongly accused, as - business? i do think that when you | have been wrongly accused, as you were _ have been wrongly accused, as you were at— have been wrongly accused, as you were at the — have been wrongly accused, as you were at the weekend, nicky, you then know the _ were at the weekend, nicky, you then know the importance of a presumption of innocence _ know the importance of a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. of course. _ of innocence until proven guilty. of course. we — of innocence until proven guilty. of course, we have had scandals in the past where — course, we have had scandals in the past where we have not seen proper thorough _ past where we have not seen proper thorough investigations and there have definitely been miscarriages of justice _ have definitely been miscarriages of justice in— have definitely been miscarriages of

justice in both directions and more often _ justice in both directions and more often it— justice in both directions and more often it is— justice in both directions and more often it is around the victim who loses _ often it is around the victim who loses out. — often it is around the victim who loses out, and in the case it be because — loses out, and in the case it be because of— loses out, and in the case it be because of because of imbalance of power. _ because of because of imbalance of power. age — because of because of imbalance of power, age or gender position, but above _ power, age or gender position, but above all— power, age or gender position, but above all else we got slightly please — above all else we got slightly please get on with the investigation to establish the facts and have a presumption of innocence. ali to establish the facts and have a presumption of innocence. ni in presumption of innocence. ali in staffordshire, _ presumption of innocence. ali in staffordshire, good _ presumption of innocence. ii “t staffordshire, good morning. presumption of innocence. ii “i staffordshire, good morning. what is your question?— your question? hello, everyone. the cuestion your question? hello, everyone. the question for — your question? hello, everyone. the question for you. _ your question? hello, everyone. the question for you. this _ your question? hello, everyone. the question for you. this is _ your question? hello, everyone. the question for you. this is an - your question? hello, everyone. the question for you. this is an old - your question? hello, everyone. the question for you. this is an old but i question for you. this is an old but hopefully pertinent question. is it time to limit executive pay and bonuses in the central industries, and i say central industries only, such as water, power, transport and health miss and there is a bit of a caveat here, please don't use the excuse of attracting the best people when we see the absolute disasters

in the water sewage management, the real franchises and health scandals, so the usual excuse about limiting pay we want to attract the best people, there is a huge pay awards out there and bonuses and yet these industries seem to be in disaster mode most of the time, so we need to do something differently, perhaps get some publicly spirited people in these positions.— these positions. interesting, andrea, what _ these positions. interesting, andrea, what would - these positions. interesting, andrea, what would you - these positions. interesting, | andrea, what would you say? these positions. interesting, - andrea, what would you say? we these positions. interesting, _ andrea, what would you say? we make -- ou andrea, what would you say? we make -- you make — andrea, what would you say? we make -- you make a — andrea, what would you say? we make -- you make a very _ andrea, what would you say? we make -- you make a very good _ andrea, what would you say? we make -- you make a very good point, - andrea, what would you say? we make -- you make a very good point, we - —— you make a very good point, we seen such incontinence —— incompetence, particularly and water companies, and energy companies there is a slightly different story, i think the huge rise in energy prices was not predicted by anyone as a direct result of vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine but never the less i can absolutely understand why people might think why are they earning so much money?

i'm not personally in favour of specific caps on executive pay, i think you do end up with unintended consequences, i'm definitely not going to justify some of the huge salaries... ~ ., ., salaries... what are the unintended consequences? _ salaries... what are the unintended consequences? essentially - salaries... what are the unintended consequences? essentially what - salaries... what are the unintended consequences? essentially what is. consequences? essentially what is coin: consequences? essentially what is going through _ consequences? essentially what is going through my _ consequences? essentially what is going through my mind _ consequences? essentially what is going through my mind that - consequences? essentially what is going through my mind that she's| consequences? essentially what is i going through my mind that she's got some vice chancellors on over half £1 million a year which i would say is notjustifiable, so got water company was on £300,000 a year, i might think that is not justifiable either, but once you start capping pay in one area you then need to start looking across the board because they would be no limit to where you are sort of fitting a value on somebody fulsome act time, experience and energy, so i do think theissue experience and energy, so i do think the issue of getting the right experience in the shops is an important one, i absolutely hear you, you don't want that excuse to be used and if you started capping executive pay and bonuses, you would end up with unintended consequences

and also people will be paid in other ways to sort of benefits and other ways to sort of benefits and other methods of payment, so i actually don't even think it would be effective. actually don't even think it would be effective-— be effective. that is a point, the bonus thing- _ be effective. that is a point, the bonus thing. that _ be effective. that is a point, the bonus thing. that should - be effective. that is a point, the| bonus thing. that should be part be effective. that is a point, the i bonus thing. that should be part of a renumeration _ bonus thing. that should be part of a renumeration package _ bonus thing. that should be part of a renumeration package that i bonus thing. that should be part of| a renumeration package that people go into position and know what the expectation of their pay level as, but we can just have this right your own ticket sort of a culture that is totally unregulated, and this is the industries that people have no choice in accessing, were not talking about in general, talking about things like water, people have done things that water to have power, the health service, there is no choice but accessing these things, so these things are crucial to a civil society, there should be some level of control from the

government that controls that society on behalf of the people to say you're getting a fair deal for the money you're paying out and you should expect certain standards for people to really do the job well and be rewarded well, but not extortionate lay at the expense of the people who are paying their salaries. ritet the people who are paying their salaries. . . . . the people who are paying their salaries. . , , . , , the people who are paying their salaries. , , , . ,, , salaries. get public spirited people to do these — salaries. get public spirited people to do these jobs, _ salaries. get public spirited people to do these jobs, an _ salaries. get public spirited people to do these jobs, an interesting i to do thesejobs, an interesting phrase. how do you get the best people, thangam? the phrase. how do you get the best people, thangam?— phrase. how do you get the best people, thangam? the question was about whether _ people, thangam? the question was about whether it _ people, thangam? the question was about whether it is _ people, thangam? the question was about whether it is time _ people, thangam? the question was about whether it is time to _ people, thangam? the question was about whether it is time to limit i about whether it is time to limit executive — about whether it is time to limit executive pay— about whether it is time to limit executive pay and _ about whether it is time to limit executive pay and bonuses i about whether it is time to limit executive pay and bonuses to i about whether it is time to limit i executive pay and bonuses to central industries. _ executive pay and bonuses to central industries. and — executive pay and bonuses to central industries, and i— executive pay and bonuses to central industries, and i want _ executive pay and bonuses to central industries, and i want to— executive pay and bonuses to central industries, and i want to say, - executive pay and bonuses to central industries, and i want to say, yes i industries, and i want to say, yes it is _ industries, and i want to say, yes it is we — industries, and i want to say, yes it is. we should _ industries, and i want to say, yes it is. we should be _ industries, and i want to say, yes it is. we should be linking - industries, and i want to say, yes it is. we should be linking payi industries, and i want to say, yes it is. we should be linking pay to| it is. we should be linking pay to performance _ it is. we should be linking pay to performance and _ it is. we should be linking pay to performance and it _ it is. we should be linking pay to performance and it cannot i it is. we should be linking pay to performance and it cannot be i it is. we should be linking pay toi performance and it cannot be ray that water— performance and it cannot be ray that water company— performance and it cannot be ray that water company bosses, i performance and it cannot be ray that water company bosses, fori that water company bosses, for example — that water company bosses, for ekanrpte have _ that water company bosses, for example have been _ that water company bosses, for example have been pocketing i that water company bosses, for- example have been pocketing bonuses and high _ example have been pocketing bonuses and high levels — example have been pocketing bonuses and high levels of— example have been pocketing bonuses and high levels of pay _ example have been pocketing bonuses and high levels of pay when _ example have been pocketing bonuses and high levels of pay when there i and high levels of pay when there are teaks— and high levels of pay when there are leaks and _ and high levels of pay when there are leaks and there _ and high levels of pay when there are leaks and there is _ and high levels of pay when there are leaks and there is sewage. i are leaks and there is sewage. custonrers— are leaks and there is sewage. customers are _ are leaks and there is sewage. customers are left _ are leaks and there is sewage. customers are left paying i are leaks and there is sewage. customers are left paying the| are leaks and there is sewage. i customers are left paying the price for failure — customers are left paying the price forfailure. how— customers are left paying the price for failure. how do _ customers are left paying the price for failure. how do you _ customers are left paying the price for failure. how do you get - customers are left paying the price for failure. how do you get the i customers are left paying the price| for failure. how do you get the best people _ for failure. how do you get the best people for— for failure. how do you get the best peopte for the — for failure. how do you get the best people for the job? _ for failure. how do you get the best people for the job? how— for failure. how do you get the best people for the job? how you - for failure. how do you get the best people for the job? how you don't i people for the job? how you don't -et people for the job? how you don't get it— people for the job? how you don't get it is— people for the job? how you don't get it is by— people for the job? how you don't get it is by saying _ people for the job? how you don't get it is by saying you _ people for the job? how you don't get it is by saying you will-

people for the job? how you don't get it is by saying you will still- get it is by saying you will still -et get it is by saying you will still get your— get it is by saying you will still get your bonus _ get it is by saying you will still get your bonus even - get it is by saying you will still get your bonus even if - get it is by saying you will still get your bonus even if there i get it is by saying you will still| get your bonus even if there is sewage — get your bonus even if there is sewage on— get your bonus even if there is sewage on the _ get your bonus even if there is sewage on the beach. - get your bonus even if there is sewage on the beach. that i get your bonus even if there is i sewage on the beach. that seems to me to _ sewage on the beach. that seems to me to be _ sewage on the beach. that seems to me to be absolutely _ sewage on the beach. that seems to me to be absolutely reprehensible i me to be absolutely reprehensible and we _ me to be absolutely reprehensible and we need — me to be absolutely reprehensible and we need the _ me to be absolutely reprehensible and we need the regulator- me to be absolutely reprehensible and we need the regulator to- me to be absolutely reprehensible i and we need the regulator to use... someone _ and we need the regulator to use... someone who's _ and we need the regulator to use... someone who's good _ and we need the regulator to use... someone who's good enough i and we need the regulator to use... someone who's good enough and i and we need the regulator to use... someone who's good enough and isj and we need the regulator to use... i someone who's good enough and is the experience and expertise to be able to deal that issue. iterate experience and expertise to be able to deal that issue.— to deal that issue. we still have sewa . e to deal that issue. we still have sewage on _ to deal that issue. we still have sewage on our— to deal that issue. we still have sewage on our beaches, i to deal that issue. we still have i sewage on our beaches, customers facing _ sewage on our beaches, customers facing a _ sewage on our beaches, customers facing a 24%— sewage on our beaches, customers facing a 24% increase _ sewage on our beaches, customers facing a 24% increase in _ sewage on our beaches, customers facing a 24% increase in thames i facing a 24% increase in thames water's — facing a 24% increase in thames water's bills— facing a 24% increase in thames water's bills over— facing a 24% increase in thames water's bills over the _ facing a 24% increase in thames water's bills over the next i facing a 24% increase in thames water's bills over the next five i water's bills over the next five years. — water's bills over the next five years. if— water's bills over the next five years. if of— water's bills over the next five years, if of what _ water's bills over the next five years, if of what grace - water's bills over the next five years, if of what grace that, i water's bills over the next five i years, if of what grace that, that is not _ years, if of what grace that, that is not on — years, if of what grace that, that is not on. 0fwat _ years, if of what grace that, that is not on. 0fwat has _ years, if of what grace that, that is not on. 0fwat has the - years, if of what grace that, that is not on. 0fwat has the power, i years, if of what grace that, thatl is not on. 0fwat has the power, a labour— is not on. 0fwat has the power, a labour government— is not on. 0fwat has the power, a labour government would - is not on. 0fwat has the power, a labour government would be i is not on. 0fwat has the power, a i labour government would be asking them _ labour government would be asking them to— labour government would be asking them to use — labour government would be asking them to use that _ labour government would be asking them to use that power— labour government would be asking them to use that power and - labour government would be asking them to use that power and calling i them to use that power and calling on them _ them to use that power and calling on them now— them to use that power and calling on them now to _ them to use that power and calling on them now to do _ them to use that power and calling on them now to do that, _ them to use that power and calling on them now to do that, i- them to use that power and calling on them now to do that, i think i them to use that power and calling on them now to do that, i think it. on them now to do that, i think it is important _ on them now to do that, i think it is important any— on them now to do that, i think it is important any cost _ on them now to do that, i think it is important any cost of - on them now to do that, i think it is important any cost of living i is important any cost of living crisis — is important any cost of living crisis that— is important any cost of living crisis that people _ is important any cost of living crisis that people know- is important any cost of living crisis that people know theiri is important any cost of living i crisis that people know their bills will not _ crisis that people know their bills will not be — crisis that people know their bills will not be paying _ crisis that people know their bills will not be paying the _ crisis that people know their bills will not be paying the price i crisis that people know their bills will not be paying the price of- will not be paying the price of failure — will not be paying the price of failure by— will not be paying the price of failure by water _ will not be paying the price of failure by water company i will not be paying the price of. failure by water company bosses will not be paying the price of- failure by water company bosses who quite frankly— failure by water company bosses who quite frankly have _ failure by water company bosses who quite frankly have benefited - failure by water company bosses who quite frankly have benefited by i quite frankly have benefited by billions — quite frankly have benefited by billions over— quite frankly have benefited by billions over the _ quite frankly have benefited by billions over the last _ quite frankly have benefited by billions over the last couple i quite frankly have benefited by billions over the last couple of| billions over the last couple of decades— billions over the last couple of decades or— billions over the last couple of decades or so. _ billions over the last couple of decades or so. just _ billions over the last couple of decades or so. just to - billions over the last couple of decades or so. just to be i billions over the last couple of decades or so. just to be clear billions over the last couple of i decades or so. just to be clear you will be _ decades or so. just to be clear you will be aware — decades or so. just to be clear you will be aware there _ decades or so. just to be clear you will be aware there are _ decades or so. just to be clear you will be aware there are union- will be aware there are union renumeration— will be aware there are union renumeration committees i will be aware there are unioni renumeration committees and will be aware there are union- renumeration committees and peoples bonuses— renumeration committees and peoples bonuses are _ renumeration committees and peoples bonuses are performance _ renumeration committees and peoples bonuses are performance —related, i renumeration committees and peoples bonuses are performance —related, so| bonuses are performance —related, so you're _ bonuses are performance —related, so you're asserting — bonuses are performance —related, so you're asserting that _ bonuses are performance —related, so

you're asserting that is _ bonuses are performance —related, so you're asserting that is not _ bonuses are performance —related, so you're asserting that is not the - you're asserting that is not the case~~~ — you're asserting that is not the case~~~ in _ you're asserting that is not the case... . ., you're asserting that is not the case... , ., , . ., case... in private sector businesses, _ case... in private sector businesses, that i case... in private sector businesses, that are - case... in private sector- businesses, that are heavily regulated, there are performance —related payments made and it would not be fair to say that there is no consequence, but also its not fair to say that whilst there is sewage, because you know as well as i do, that the issue we have the climate change, these huge rainfall events, is actually the alternative to the sewage releases is that it backs up into your house, your kitchen, your bathroom we into your house, your kitchen, your bathroom ~' ,, into your house, your kitchen, your bathroom ~ i, i, i i, i i, bathroom we know that climate change is not new information, _ bathroom we know that climate change is not new information, water - is not new information, water company— is not new information, water company bosses _ is not new information, water company bosses have - is not new information, water company bosses have knownl is not new information, water- company bosses have known about climate _ company bosses have known about climate change _ company bosses have known about climate change for _ company bosses have known about climate change for some _ company bosses have known about climate change for some time - company bosses have known about| climate change for some time now, have failed — climate change for some time now, have failed to — climate change for some time now, have failed to invest _ climate change for some time now, have failed to invest and _ climate change for some time now, have failed to invest and so - climate change for some time now, have failed to invest and so the - have failed to invest and so the customer— have failed to invest and so the customer listening _ have failed to invest and so the customer listening will- have failed to invest and so the customer listening will be - have failed to invest and so the i customer listening will be thinking why should — customer listening will be thinking why should i— customer listening will be thinking why should i put _ customer listening will be thinking why should i put up _ customer listening will be thinking why should i put up with _ customer listening will be thinking why should i put up with increased bills to _ why should i put up with increased bills to pay — why should i put up with increased bills to pay for— why should i put up with increased bills to pay for a _ why should i put up with increased bills to pay for a week's _ why should i put up with increased bills to pay for a week's should - bills to pay for a week's should have _ bills to pay for a week's should have been— bills to pay for a week's should have been fixed _ bills to pay for a week's should have been fixed years - bills to pay for a week's should have been fixed years ago - bills to pay for a week's should i have been fixed years ago sewage bills to pay for a week's should - have been fixed years ago sewage on the beaches— have been fixed years ago sewage on the beaches that _ have been fixed years ago sewage on the beaches that was _ have been fixed years ago sewage on the beaches that was both _ the beaches that was both predictable _ the beaches that was both predictable and _ the beaches that was both�* predictable and predicted, the beaches that was both - predictable and predicted, water companies — predictable and predicted, water companies did _ predictable and predicted, water companies did not— predictable and predicted, water companies did not take - predictable and predicted, water companies did not take action, l predictable and predicted, water. companies did not take action, that is where _ companies did not take action, that is where we — companies did not take action, that is where we are _ companies did not take action, that is where we are and _ companies did not take action, that is where we are and that's - companies did not take action, that is where we are and that's how- is where we are and that's how customers— is where we are and that's how customers feel. _ is where we are and that's how customers feel. i— is where we are and that's how customers feel.— is where we are and that's how customers feel. i, s, , h, , s, customers feel. i am absolutely not 'usti inc customers feel. i am absolutely not justifying the _ customers feel. i am absolutely not justifying the performance - customers feel. i am absolutely not justifying the performance of- customers feel. i am absolutely not justifying the performance of water| justifying the performance of water companies, but i'm just urging caution because they do get

performance —related pay, is a very tight trajectory towards building the infrastructure that is needed, i think the government has put in place very strict rules around the investment is necessary, but climate change is a very real issue, and people face the sewage backed up in their homes would be very upset with their homes would be very upset with the government as labour did that was to vote to stop sewage releases straightaway, which would be absolutely appalling. i straightaway, which would be absolutely appalling.- straightaway, which would be absolutely appalling. i don't think an bod absolutely appalling. i don't think anybody listening _ absolutely appalling. i don't think anybody listening to _ absolutely appalling. i don't think anybody listening to this - absolutely appalling. i don't think anybody listening to this will - absolutely appalling. i don't think anybody listening to this will be l anybody listening to this will be convinced. _ anybody listening to this will be convinced, because _ anybody listening to this will be convinced, because they- anybody listening to this will be convinced, because they know. anybody listening to this will be - convinced, because they know their bills are _ convinced, because they know their bills are going — convinced, because they know their bills are going up. _ convinced, because they know their bills are going up, they— convinced, because they know their bills are going up, they know- convinced, because they know their bills are going up, they know there| bills are going up, they know there is sewage — bills are going up, they know there is sewage on— bills are going up, they know there is sewage on the _ bills are going up, they know there is sewage on the beach. _ bills are going up, they know there is sewage on the beach. your- bills are going up, they know there is sewage on the beach.— bills are going up, they know there is sewage on the beach. your time is come, is sewage on the beach. your time is come. richard- _ is sewage on the beach. your time is come, richard. i— is sewage on the beach. your time is come, richard. ifind_ is sewage on the beach. your time is come, richard. ifind it— is sewage on the beach. your time is come, richard. ifind itjust- come, richard. i find it 'ust absoluteryi come, richard. i find it 'ust absolutely staggering h come, richard. i find itjust absolutely staggering that l come, richard. ifind itjust- absolutely staggering that andrea can talk _ absolutely staggering that andrea can talk about performance —related pay in _ can talk about performance —related pay in the _ can talk about performance —related pay in the water industry. i was listening — pay in the water industry. i was listening to ali ask his question, your— listening to ali ask his question, your question i think is a really good _ your question i think is a really good one. _ your question i think is a really good one, and i think i can hear the anger— good one, and i think i can hear the anger in— good one, and i think i can hear the anger inyour— good one, and i think i can hear the anger in your voice about there is

some _ anger in your voice about there is some staggering sums of money being paid in— some staggering sums of money being paid in particular to water company bosses _ paid in particular to water company bosses for— paid in particular to water company bosses for per performance, failing, it assures _ bosses for per performance, failing, it assures for failure, i live in the _ it assures for failure, i live in the west— it assures for failure, i live in the west country, any part of the world _ the west country, any part of the world where i have a co—signer in my constituency. — world where i have a co—signer in my constituency, and we see sewage spitts _ constituency, and we see sewage spills every day pretty much, certainty _ spills every day pretty much, certainly when it is raining, and the government... the government has permitted _ the government... the government has permitted this behaviour to carry on, permitted this behaviour to carry on. the — permitted this behaviour to carry on, the regulator that the government allows to oversee the water _ government allows to oversee the water companies, 0fwat, has absolutely been left to get on with it, absolutely been left to get on with it. and _ absolutely been left to get on with it. and for— absolutely been left to get on with it, and for has got no teeth, as it has got _ it, and for has got no teeth, as it has got teeth it is leaving them in a glass— has got teeth it is leaving them in a gtassiar— has got teeth it is leaving them in a glass jar by the side of the bed, because _ a glass jar by the side of the bed, because it — a glass jar by the side of the bed, because it isjust not getting stuck into these — because it isjust not getting stuck into these water companies, with thames— into these water companies, with thames water, we have seen a staggering £14 billion returned in

dividends were all the while quarter of their— dividends were all the while quarter of their fresh water is lost in weeks _ of their fresh water is lost in weeks ._ of their fresh water is lost in weeks , it _ of their fresh water is lost in weeks. , it is absolutely staggering what has _ weeks. , it is absolutely staggering what has been going on and if i think— what has been going on and if i think i— what has been going on and if i think i can _ what has been going on and if i think i can detect anger in your voice. — think i can detect anger in your voice. i— think i can detect anger in your voice, i certainly feel it. | think i can detect anger in your voice, i certainly feel it.- voice, i certainly feel it. ithink what you're — voice, i certainly feel it. ithink what you're both _ voice, i certainly feel it. ithink what you're both them - voice, i certainly feel it. ithink what you're both them and - voice, i certainly feel it. i think - what you're both them and shooting is how easy it is in a position to just say yes, it's all rubbish, don't pay them anything, gray is not what either of us are saying. durable saying performance —related pay for underperformance, you're really not presenting a solution. a solution that what the government is seeking to do is to force 0fwat to step up to the table, to regulate those water companies properly, to ensure we get the sewage infrastructure bill, so that the sewage releases stop, and i absolutely agree with you that the performance has been extremely per, but for you to then draw the conclusion that they should not get paid... conclusion that they should not get aid... �* . . ., conclusion that they should not get aid... ., ., paid... assignment oh, come on. the renumeration — paid... assignment oh, come on. the

renumeration package... _ paid. .. assignment oh, come on. the renumeration package... it— paid. .. assignment oh, come on. the renumeration package... it is- paid... assignment oh, come on. the renumeration package... it is not - renumeration package... it is not sewaue renumeration package... it is not sewage spills _ renumeration package... it is not sewage spills it _ renumeration package... it is not sewage spills it is _ renumeration package... it is not sewage spills it is permitted - sewage spills it is permitted releases because of the effect of climate change and it's very easy in opposition to genocide with anger and... ,, . ,, , , opposition to genocide with anger and... ,, . ,, , . and... sewage spills combine with a one oint and... sewage spills combine with a one point two _ and... sewage spills combine with a one point two renumeration - and... sewage spills combine with a one point two renumeration thames water bosses _ one point two renumeration thames water bosses have _ one point two renumeration thames water bosses have just _ one point two renumeration thames water bosses have just been - one point two renumeration thamesj water bosses have just been quizzed by mps and are appearing in front of the environment food and rural affairs committee to explain what's going on with the company finances, i will play a vet, talking about sewage leaks, here the interim ceo... ”5 sewage leaks, here the interim ceo... , ., sewage leaks, here the interim cso... , ., , , sewage leaks, here the interim cso... , . y , , sewage leaks, here the interim cso... , . y , ceo... is that yes, there is a culture are _ ceo... is that yes, there is a culture are you _ ceo... is that yes, there is a culture are you want - ceo... is that yes, there is a culture are you want to - ceo... is that yes, there is a l culture are you want to answer ceo... is that yes, there is a - culture are you want to answer the question? culture are you want to answer the cuestion? ., . . , ~ question? you are right, last week we had the — question? you are right, last week we had the decision _ question? you are right, last week we had the decision from - question? you are right, last week we had the decision from the - question? you are right, last week| we had the decision from the judge in the _ we had the decision from the judge in the prosecution case, that dates back to _ in the prosecution case, that dates back to 2017, so it is rather historical— back to 2017, so it is rather historical in nature, there is no doubt — historical in nature, there is no doubt that— historical in nature, there is no doubt that we caused serious pollution incident in the crawley stream. — pollution incident in the crawley stream, we've apologise unreservedly

for that, _ stream, we've apologise unreservedly for that, the _ stream, we've apologise unreservedly for that, the judge in that case they'd — for that, the judge in that case they'd find that we had deliberately misled _ they'd find that we had deliberately misled the environment agency, and i have been— misled the environment agency, and i have been through the case, read everything, i don't see that obviously we completely respect the 'ud-e obviously we completely respect the judge was my decision. in terms of your on— judge was my decision. in terms of your on culture, i think one of the things— your on culture, i think one of the things we've — your on culture, i think one of the things we've done over the past couple — things we've done over the past couple of— things we've done over the past couple of years, particularly under this leadership is to change the values — this leadership is to change the values and behaviours and culture across _ values and behaviours and culture across the — values and behaviours and culture across the company, i think historically we were a country in which _ historically we were a country in which bad — historically we were a country in which bad news travelled upwards to slowly _ which bad news travelled upwards to slowly and _ which bad news travelled upwards to slowly and i think you were afraid, actually. _ slowly and i think you were afraid, actually, to— slowly and i think you were afraid, actually, to say things really where the ground and we try to turn around in the _ the ground and we try to turn around in the last— the ground and we try to turn around in the last of— the ground and we try to turn around in the last of the years and it is helping — in the last of the years and it is helping us. _ in the last of the years and it is helping us, to be honest, within the company— helping us, to be honest, within the company about the challenges we face, _ company about the challenges we face, so _ company about the challenges we face, so that we can really address them _ face, so that we can really address them and — face, so that we can really address them and make improvements the them and make improvement companies them and make improvements true: companies being investigated, you are included. how many cases are being investigated at the moment? fist

being investigated at the moment? at the moment we have two large investigations, one being conducted by the _ investigations, one being conducted by the environment agency in relation — by the environment agency in relation to compliance and we have another _ relation to compliance and we have another one being conducted by or for on _ another one being conducted by or for on the — another one being conducted by or for on the same issue, and i believe 0fwat— for on the same issue, and i believe 0fwat is— for on the same issue, and i believe 0fwat is also — for on the same issue, and i believe 0fwat is also contemplating whether we in breach of section 94 of the water— we in breach of section 94 of the water industry act, obviously the provision — water industry act, obviously the provision of effectual drainage and they are _ provision of effectual drainage and they are considering multiple instances under that broad heading there _ instances under that broad heading there are _ instances under that broad heading there are just those two investigations. we might 0fwat have indicated _ investigations. we might 0fwat have indicated they are looking at over 2000 _ indicated they are looking at over 2000 breaches across the industry, can you _ 2000 breaches across the industry, can you indicate to the committee what _ can you indicate to the committee what proportion of that, if you haven't— what proportion of that, if you haven't got a specific number? i don't haven't got a specific number? don't have haven't got a specific number? i don't have a specific number with me, i certainly think things would represent a large proportion of that, we have been very open and transparent... that, we have been very open and transparent. . ._ that, we have been very open and transparent... about the extent to which we are _ transparent... about the extent to which we are discharging - transparent... about the extent to which we are discharging sewage l transparent... about the extent to i which we are discharging sewage into rivers. _ which we are discharging sewage into rivers. we _ which we are discharging sewage into rivers, we have said that is unacceptable, and we have been fully cooperative with the investigations that have — cooperative with the investigations that have been run both by us and

the environment agency. | that have been run both by us and the environment agency.- that have been run both by us and the environment agency. i want to move onto — the environment agency. i want to move onto another _ the environment agency. i want to move onto another question, - the environment agency. i want to move onto another question, such j the environment agency. i want to i move onto another question, such an important one which is the reaction that, that was the interim ceo thames water, and at the heart of the where, she made a very interesting point about internal communications and wanting, terribly familiar story, communications and wanting, terribly familiarstory, but communications and wanting, terribly familiar story, but richard, communications and wanting, terribly familiarstory, but richard, pick communications and wanting, terribly familiar story, but richard, pick up on that point. i familiar story, but richard, pick up on that point-— on that point. i find it utterly staggering — on that point. i find it utterly staggering that _ on that point. i find it utterly staggering that somebody i on that point. i find it utterlyl staggering that somebody can on that point. i find it utterly i staggering that somebody can have the gumption to go in front of the panel— the gumption to go in front of the panel of— the gumption to go in front of the panel of mps and talk about miscommunication, let's look at the substance _ miscommunication, let's look at the substance of this. let's not get the glossy— substance of this. let's not get the glossy brochures for the corporate spin. _ glossy brochures for the corporate spin. so _ glossy brochures for the corporate spin, so that the substance of this. thames— spin, so that the substance of this. thames water has borrowed staggering sums of— thames water has borrowed staggering sums of money, paid enormous dividends— sums of money, paid enormous dividends and they have not been doing _ dividends and they have not been doing the — dividends and they have not been doing the one basic thing, which is to supply—

doing the one basic thing, which is to supply freshwater properly. one quarter— to supply freshwater properly. one quarter of— to supply freshwater properly. one quarter of their water leaking and this is— quarter of their water leaking and this is a _ quarter of their water leaking and this is a company that has been fined _ this is a company that has been fined £3— this is a company that has been fined £3 million recently for a killing — fined £3 million recently for a killing fish by spilling untreated raw sewage aye i will move on to another— raw sewage aye i will move on to another question. may i will move onto another question, i want to be to in derbyshire, thisjust in from the bank— to in derbyshire, thisjust in from the bank england... fire to in derbyshire, this 'ust in from the bank england. . ._ to in derbyshire, this 'ust in from the bank england... are you there? you will be — the bank england... are you there? you will be interested _ the bank england... are you there? you will be interested in _ the bank england... are you there? you will be interested in this. i you will be interested in this. mortgage payments will rise by at least £500 a month for nearlyi million households between the end of this year and 2026, the bank of england has said, this from their twice yearly financial stability report. it says mortgage holders may struggle with repayments on loans in lenders are strong enough to withstand a rise in customers defaulting on repayments, the bankers raised interest payments to

5% to curb the rising prices and expectations that boring cosmic rising for the rest. mortgage rates this week, this week the average rate on a two—year fixed deal a 15 year high of 6.6% and the davis—mack report says more than 2 million households will pay between £200 and £499 and the end of this year and the end of 2026, chilling stop what do you think ayes ma; the end of 2026, chilling stop what do you think aye— do you think ayes my mortgage started of at — do you think ayes my mortgage started of at the _ do you think ayes my mortgage started of at the constant i do you think ayes my mortgage started of at the constant rate, | started of at the constant rate, interest rates started to rise and i had to go to interest only payments, and that has doubled now. i am self—employed, i live hand to mouth, so to speak, month—to—month, i haven't got any savings any more, that's gone and i have recently injured myself so i cannot work,

which makes even worse because i'm now not bringing in any money, and contacting the mortgage company as the could you freeze it for a couple of months while i go over this period of injury, or at least recovered enough just to earn something. and they said there is no legislation to make them do that, and i believe there is a charter she says the company says there is no legislation but they would look at freezing, but it would impact on my scoring rate i would go into arrears, they would have to add that money on the extending period of my mortgage period that is outstanding and i said i did not think i would be able to afford the that they said that's all they could offer at the

moment. on top of that, and relying on, i've worked hard, and working class, worked hard to pay the mortgage, which i'm now struggling, i really am struggling, ifade into a pension scheme that i was hoping would pay my mortgage of kneeling so many years later and then lustrous comes along and devastates the mortgage market. let comes along and devastates the mortgage market.— comes along and devastates the mortgage market. let me throw that to andrea, after— mortgage market. let me throw that to andrea, after penny _ mortgage market. let me throw that to andrea, after penny was - mortgage market. let me throw that to andrea, after penny was knocked | to andrea, after penny was knocked out of the conservative leadership conditioner supported by and said she should be given a transferred by minister. i she should be given a transferred by minister. . ., , she should be given a transferred by minister. . . , , ., . minister. i am really sorry to hear about kevin's _ minister. i am really sorry to hear about kevin's situation _ minister. i am really sorry to hear about kevin's situation and i minister. i am really sorry to hear about kevin's situation and think| about kevin's situation and think around the country are definitely feeling the pinch and mortgage rates rising isjust feeling the pinch and mortgage rates rising is just one feeling the pinch and mortgage rates rising isjust one part feeling the pinch and mortgage rates rising is just one part of the picture, with food price inflation,

it is a member of the treasury select committee we actually had the bike mortgage lenders...— bike mortgage lenders... dodge dealers trust _ bike mortgage lenders... dodge dealers trust bit. _ bike mortgage lenders... dodge dealers trust bit. i _ bike mortgage lenders... dodge dealers trust bit. i thought i i bike mortgage lenders... dodge j dealers trust bit. i thought i was mentioning _ dealers trust bit. i thought i was mentioning the _ dealers trust bit. i thought i was mentioning the question. i dealers trust bit. i thought i was mentioning the question. but i dealers trust bit. i thought i wasj mentioning the question. but he mentioned _ mentioning the question. but he mentioned liz _ mentioning the question. but he mentioned liz truss. _ mentioning the question. but he mentioned liz truss. i— mentioning the question. but he mentioned liz truss. i support i mentioning the question. but he i mentioned liz truss. i support the idea of growth _ mentioned liz truss. i support the idea of growth in _ mentioned liz truss. i support the idea of growth in the _ mentioned liz truss. i support the idea of growth in the economy, i mentioned liz truss. i support the idea of growth in the economy, as| idea of growth in the economy, as the way to get us out of this current problem we have, a global problem of global inflation, as a result of bad replica's aggression, and as a result of the overt pandemic, breaking supply chains, we've relation of as an economy, as has european economies and north american economies, to recover, and so i... absolutely believe. does american economies, to recover, and so i. .. absolutely believe.— so i. .. absolutely believe. does liz truss have — so i. .. absolutely believe. does liz truss have anything _ so i. .. absolutely believe. does liz truss have anything to _ so i. .. absolutely believe. does liz truss have anything to do - so i. .. absolutely believe. does liz truss have anything to do with i so i. .. absolutely believe. does liz truss have anything to do with a? l truss have anything to do with a? element i completely leave growth in the economy, rishi sunak�*s principles of growing the economy, having inflation and getting debt down, that is the way to recovering the economy, that's the way we are

going to make a difference for people like your caller who are really struggling at the moment, but i didn't want to make the point about the mortgage lenders yesterday at the treasury committee because after the big financial crisis, under the last labour administration the government, the incoming conservative and lib dem government put in place affordability of their and actually, i completely hear that kevin is really struggling, but at the national level walk mortgage lenders were able to tell us is that in fact people are not at the moment going into arrears, they are not seeing lots of people unable to afford their mortgages, and that is very reassuring, because obviously for dawn that is the devastating thing, to lose your home. so those affordability tests that were introduced means that most have had their income and ability to pay

stress tested, which means they are likely to be able to afford to stay in their homes, added to which of course with the strength of the economy and unemployment is low as it is, what it does mean is that more people who are in work full absolutely be struggling. lets give someone else _ absolutely be struggling. lets give someone else a _ absolutely be struggling. lets give someone else a chance. _ absolutely be struggling. lets give someone else a chance. kevin's i absolutely be struggling. lets give i someone else a chance. kevin's point at the end, a striking sentence, and then lustrous came along —— liz truss. some stuff to tell you about, more breaking news, teachers in england represented by the nasuwt with temperatures in spain and italy set to represented teachers in with temperatures in spain and italy set to represented by achers in with temperatures in spain and italy set to represented by theirs in with temperatures in spain and italy set to represented by the nasuwt england represented by the nasuwt have voted in favour of industrial have voted in favour of industrial action in a dispute over pay and it england represented by the nasuwt have voted in favour of pay strial england represented by the nasuwt have voted in favour of pay and l england represented by the nasuwt have voted in favour of pay and it action in a dispute over pay and it will take continue daughter straight will take continue daughter straight action details which will be action details which will be announced shortly, dates of strike announced shortly, dates of strike action in the autumn term will be considered by the union, coordinated will be action in the autumn term will be considered by the union, with other education unions were

possible, and commenting on the with other education unions were possible, and commenting on the results doctor patrick said members results said members have sent strong message to the results doctor patrick said members have sent strong message to the government and to employers that government and to employers that teachers demand a better deal on pay teachers demand a better deal and to address excessive workload government and to employers that teachers demand a bette workload and to address excessive workload and to address excessive workload and to address excessive workload and working hours, and i will come and working hours, and i will come to you to address may be the point to you to address may be the on liz truss injust to you to address may be the point on liz truss in just the second, and working hours, and i will come to you to ac in as may be the and working hours, and i will come to you to ac in just 1ay be the and working hours, and i will come to you to ac in just the be the and working hours, and i will come that can save our coverage continues to you to ac in just the second, on liz truss in just the second, that can save our coverage and on five live, and on bbc sounds. and on five live, and on bbc sounds. and on the news channel and bbc two, we are going over to the nato summit in lithuania. that is coming up for you. accused of paying a teenager for explicit photos with claims that menacing messages were sent to a second person. north korea fired a long—range ballistic, the 12th this year, landing in the sea offjapan. europe is braced for a record—breaking heatwave this week with temperatures in spain and italy

set to teachers in