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tv   Verified Live  BBC News  July 12, 2023 5:00pm-5:30pm BST

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the on very specific steps about the response if there is any aggression against our state. that is about the permanent support of ukraine, that is about the aggression which would never take place again. it is about not weakening of the support of our country and strengthening of our armed forces, the strengthening of the security, the land, in dc and in the security, the land, in dc and in the air, strengthening of our financial structures, cybersecurity, so on. and the sanctions policy, the use of sanctions procedure. still, all of that is interconnected, because sanctions are notjust imposed by someone but by certain states, because of some of the aggressive steps of another state. your question, please?
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an honour to have you here. thank you very _ an honour to have you here. thank you very much. my question. in addition — you very much. my question. in addition to— you very much. my question. in addition to ending the war of course, _ addition to ending the war of course, what will be your main political — course, what will be your main political goals and expectations before — political goals and expectations before the next nato summit in washington? translation: | washington? translation: 4' ., , ., washington? translation: 4' ., translation: i like that you say before the summit, _ translation: i like that you say before the summit, not - translation: i like that you say before the summit, not only - translation: i like that you say before the summit, not only the | translation: | like that you say . before the summit, not only the end of the war but we don't we plan to do until the next summit in nato? i am so happy, because we have similar level of positive mood. it is true, we believe in victory. we believe that there will be the next important step for ukraine at the next nato summit, symbolically, because it will be 75 year anniversary of the alliance in washington, so it seems to me we need to work a lot and get ready to the summit. besides that, we have one wish, victory. we don't have any
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other wishes, one wish, victory. we don't have any otherwishes, honestly one wish, victory. we don't have any other wishes, honestly speaking. any ambitions, i don't have any other ambitions. i have one objective or aim, victory, and together with the victory, we will definitely have the nato membership and definitely everybody understands that we will have absolute unity, that ukraine will be an eu member, so infected is just and fair. ukraine fought for this future —— in fact it is just and fair. it is not long to wait for, but in this reality, in this life, to become an equal member of the european union, of the security alliance and to be an independent state. this is my goal. dear colleagues, two more questions. we can listen to two more questions. at the back there.
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thank you. today, g7 leaders approved _ thank you. today, g7 leaders approved the declaration muh but they did _ approved the declaration muh but they did not sign it. why was it not signed _ they did not sign it. why was it not signed and — they did not sign it. why was it not signed and why is this declaration important? it isjust the same as if they cited. — important? it isjust the same as if they cited, it isjust important? it isjust the same as if they cited, it is just the form, they cited, it isjust the form, it is they cited, it isjust the form, it must— they cited, it isjust the form, it isjust the — they cited, it isjust the form, it isjust the selected procedure. it isjust the selected procedure. [it isjust the selected procedure. [it is 'ust isjust the selected procedure. isjust the selected procedure. if isjust the same if isjust the selected procedure. if is just the same if they signed it. double will happen then? as i told you, between those already mentioned in the declaration, we are already developing bilateral documents and also with the states they were joining those declarations. whoever wants, of course. but we can see there will be a very serious union. thank you. and the last question, please come in the centre, the gray jacket, blue shirt? wonderful beard!
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you, please. poland and lithuania are already cooperating with ukraine regarding security, _ cooperating with ukraine regarding security, including military cooperation and having a joint unit. now, _ cooperation and having a joint unit. now. aiso, — cooperation and having a joint unit. now, also, cooperation with expectation of grain imports. shouldn't this regional cooperation also include tighter cooperation in academia — also include tighter cooperation in academia sphere, including research and development into armaments? that is reall our and development into armaments? trust is really our most powerful partners, ourfriendly neighbours, partners, our friendly neighbours, who partners, ourfriendly neighbours, who are always standing for ukraine. lithuania, poland, they are always with us, and they are always the
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first advocacy activists about our future membership in d eu and nato hub and that is totally understandable because they understandable because they understand us at the level of history, of their own history, this threat of russian aggression. they understand what aggression is and what it can lead to, and they understand what it is to lose the probable loss of independence and identity, because they went through that. they lived through that. and that. they lived through that. and thatis that. they lived through that. and that is why they are our close friends. there can be different problems of cooperation, including the production, the manufacturing of certain defence systems, and of course we are working on cyberspace and security, we are exchanging experts and apps and also we are working a lot on digitalisation,
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which has a great impact as well. i will not tell you how, but still since the beginning of the war, it really helped us a lot. we preserved and receive the data of our state, different data, from baking to any other type of data, because we have powerful digitalisation —— from baking. ourapp and powerful digitalisation —— from baking. our app and other developments, which we are sharing with our partners. dear colleagues, we can see that there are many questions left, but we are still grateful for this interest, but unfortunately need to finalise. thank you so much, goodbye. that was uuite a thank you so much, goodbye. that was quite a news — thank you so much, goodbye. that was quite a news conference _ thank you so much, goodbye. that was quite a news conference from _ quite a news conference from president zelensky, talking about the importance of the significance of the security guarantees provided by the g7 today, going on to say, victory is the only objective here. once we win, we willjoin the eu and alsojoin nato. welcome to
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once we win, we willjoin the eu and also join nato. welcome to verified live. let's recap what has been great at this nato summit. leaders have formalised long—term agreements with ukraine. those secured commitments are a broad internationalframework those secured commitments are a broad international framework to deliver... it has been welcomed by president zelenskyjust deliver... it has been welcomed by president zelensky just there, who swallowed his disappointment at the lack of a exact timetable to ukraine tojoin nato. elsewhere, president erdogan has warned sweden's membership of nato is not —— will not be ratified into least october and ben wallace caused a stir by saying people wanted to see gratitude from ukraine in relation to western aid. on that point, president zelensky was just asked
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about that in the news conference. quite an answer, clear frustration. having listened to this. translation: i having listened to this. translation: . ., ., translation: i believe that we are alwa s translation: i believe that we are always grateful _ translation: i believe that we are always grateful to _ translation: i believe that we are always grateful to united _ translation: i believe that we are always grateful to united kingdom, | always grateful to united kingdom, we were always grateful to the prime minister or two prime ministers and to the minister of defence. i did not know what he meant and how else we should be grateful. how else should i express my words of gratitude? orwe should i express my words of gratitude? or we could get up in the morning and express our words of gratitude personally to the minister. really, idon't gratitude personally to the minister. really, i don't understand the essence of the question. we are grateful to united kingdom. united kingdom is our partner. the minister of defence, do you have problems with your relationship with uk? why
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don't you extend words of gratitude. in english: you have to call him today. - lewis vaughanjones is in vilnius. quite a comment from zelensky, an amazon style delivery service, from ben wallace?— ben wallace? quite a... you got a sense that — ben wallace? quite a... you got a sense that zelensky _ ben wallace? quite a... you got a sense that zelensky was _ ben wallace? quite a... you got a sense that zelensky was perhaps i sense that zelensky was perhaps making a bit of a joke, perhaps that is my interpretation, making sure everything is ok with his defence minister, "call the uk defence minister, "call the uk defence minister, checked the relation ship is ok," but those comments for mr
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wallace have done the rounds here. the uk prominence rishi sunak was asked about it a little earlier in his press conference and this was his response —— the uk prime minister. mr zelensky has expressed his gratitude for what we've done on a number of occasions, and not least in his incredibly moving address that he made to parliament earlier this year. and he's done so again to me, as he has done countless times when i've met him. so i know he and his people are incredibly grateful for the support the uk has shown, the welcome that we've provided to many ukrainian families, but also the leadership that we've shown throughout this conflict. as i mentioned, often being the first to move support forward, whether it was with the provision of tanks or indeed long range weapons. and as i say, he's enormously grateful for that. but people across ukraine are also fighting for their lives and freedom every single day,
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and they're paying a terrible price for it. so i completely understand volodymyr's desire to do everything he can to protect his people and to stop this war. and we will continue to give him the support that he needs. just want to bring you a bit of context from james landale, our very own diplomatic correspondent. he has just written two sentences on this, or spring you. he says uk defence secretary's ben wallace's comments were not in anger, he was suggesting kyiv needed to be more politically savvy. i do not want to pit one diplomatic correspondence against another. that is exactly what i'm going to do. from the new york times, thank you very much for being here on bbc news. what is your perspective on all this, then? you have a uk minister suggesting kyiv needs to be more grateful? i was have a uk minister suggesting kyiv needs to be more grateful? i was in the briefing — needs to be more grateful? i was in the briefing also, _ needs to be more grateful? i was in the briefing also, if— needs to be more grateful? i was in the briefing also, if he _ needs to be more grateful? i was in the briefing also, if he was - needs to be more grateful? i was in
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the briefing also, if he was being i needs to be more grateful? i was in the briefing also, if he was being a l the briefing also, if he was being a bit by. _ the briefing also, if he was being a bit by. and — the briefing also, if he was being a bit by, and it is a problem, but lenski — bit by, and it is a problem, but lenski don't make zelensky is leading — lenski don't make zelensky is leading a _ lenski don't make zelensky is leading a country at war and pressure _ leading a country at war and pressure works —— but zelensky is leading _ pressure works —— but zelensky is leading the — pressure works —— but zelensky is leading. the americans had this problem — leading. the americans had this problem for biden has resented... zelensky a ntediai_ biden has resented... zelensky a media! he — biden has resented... zelensky a medial he asked for some thing else. in medial he asked for some thing else. in fact. _ medial he asked for some thing else. in fact. the _ medial he asked for some thing else. in fact, the americans have their investor— in fact, the americans have their investor in — in fact, the americans have their investor in kyiv go to zelensky a day early— investor in kyiv go to zelensky a day early and tell him what is coming — day early and tell him what is coming so that he can prepare gratitude _ coming so that he can prepare gratitude for biden, because biden wants— gratitude for biden, because biden wants a _ gratitude for biden, because biden wants a bit of gratitude too. interesting. give us the us perspective here, then. g7, big table of support and measures. what will biden be hoping to get from it will biden be hoping to get from it will be the reaction back in the us? it is an interesting dodge, because it is not really nato, right?
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because nato is not a combatant in russia says that it is defeating nato aggression, so nato has a very careful in nato aggression, so nato has a very carefu ., , nato aggression, so nato has a very carefu ., i, nato aggression, so nato has a very carefu ., , , , , , ., ., careful in only supplying non-lethal ea-ui inc. careful in only supplying non-lethal equipping this— careful in only supplying non-lethal equipping this is— careful in only supplying non-lethal equipping. this is set _ careful in only supplying non-lethal equipping. this is set up _ careful in only supplying non-lethal equipping. this is set up here - careful in only supplying non-lethal equipping. this is set up here but l equipping. this is set up here but under— equipping. this is set up here but under the — equipping. this is set up here but under the g7 hospices and it is a way to— under the g7 hospices and it is a way to encourage russia not to believe _ way to encourage russia not to believe that our interests and our commitment ukraine is waning, because — commitment ukraine is waning, because the whole point of this, medium — because the whole point of this, medium and long—term commitments for military— medium and long—term commitments for military and _ medium and long—term commitments for military and financial aid, to take ukraine _ military and financial aid, to take ukraine notjust through military and financial aid, to take ukraine not just through the war but for reconstruction, so the whole point _ for reconstruction, so the whole point of— for reconstruction, so the whole point of it— for reconstruction, so the whole point of it is to show that interest is not _ point of it is to show that interest is not waning, that public is knocking _ is not waning, that public is knocking tired, that putin's strategy— knocking tired, that putin's strategy if it is a strategy of waiting _ strategy if it is a strategy of waiting out the west is not going to work _ waiting out the west is not going to work that — waiting out the west is not going to work. that is what it is about. fascinating. thank you for coming on bbc news. great to get your perspective from the us. once you get the perspective from russia now,
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because the kremlin, vladimir putin, will be watching what is happening here very closely. here is steve rosenberg. so what does moscow think, then, of the vilnius summit? well, no time frame for ukraine tojoin nato. that suits the kremlin just fine. and, russian state television has been gloating about this today, claiming that the summit has been a total failure for kyiv. however, the idea of the g7�*s long term security guarantees for ukraine, that hasn't gone down well in moscow. we've heard from dmitry peskov, vladimir putin's spokesman. he said it would be a mistake and potentially very dangerous for any country to offer security guarantees to ukraine because those, he claimed, would infringe on russia's security. he called nato an offensive alliance that brings instability and aggression. well, nato would point out that it is in fact
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a defensive alliance, and in terms of aggression, well, it wasn't nato that launched a full scale invasion of ukraine in february last year. that was russia. but if you read the ultra pro—kremlin newspapers today, they push the official line that the threat to world peace emanates not from russia, but from nato. this is the front page of the rossiyskaya gazeta, the government paper, and it says that nato is anti—russian, nato is on the warpath. and that fits in with the kremlin narrative that russia is a besieged fortress surrounded by enemies who are trying to destroy her. that was the view there from moscow, steve rosenberg, because as i mentioned, what happens here is reported right around the world. if ijust reported right around the world. if i just evaluate very briefly, reported right around the world. if ijust evaluate very briefly, you can see the big screens, remarks by presidentjoe biden coming up. down below, the world's journalist reporting every twist and turn. that is why the words that are released in communiqu s here are picked over,
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the language is so crucial, and is why the words spoken by world leaders in their press conferences, which we are seeing at the moment, our picked over, for example president erdoganjust our picked over, for example president erdogan just revealing in his press conference that actually ratification process for sweden to join nato, that won't start until october, because it has to be 70 to parliament in turkey and they are on break over the summer —— submitted to parliament. want to get some more details now specifically on that g7 agreement that we have been reporting on all afternoon. we can speak now to acadian defence minister —— the canadian defence minister. thank you for being on the programme. minister. thank you for being on the programme-— minister. thank you for being on the rouramme. ., ~ i. ., ., programme. thank you for having me. that's aet programme. thank you for having me. that's get into — programme. thank you for having me. that's get into this _ programme. thank you for having me. that's get into this announcement - that's get into this announcement this afternoon of a significant announcement from ukraine positive point of view. they were hoping for a full invitation to nato, they have not got that. what do you assess the significance, this g7 deal? i met
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with prison —— president zelensky and his minister with my prime ministers this morning. minister with my prime ministers this morning-— minister with my prime ministers this morning. positivity on moving forward on — this morning. positivity on moving forward on track _ this morning. positivity on moving forward on track for _ this morning. positivity on moving forward on track for nato - forward on track for nato membership, as well as the security guarantees — membership, as well as the security guarantees. the security guarantees are so— guarantees. the security guarantees are so import because for the first time. _ are so import because for the first time. the — are so import because for the first time, the g7 is coming together to say positively that it is going to collectively work for guaranteeing ukraine's— collectively work for guaranteeing ukraine's security, and it is doing so in _ ukraine's security, and it is doing so in a _ ukraine's security, and it is doing so in a multiyear process, and that is much _ so in a multiyear process, and that is much different from what we have seen since _ is much different from what we have seen since february 24, 2022, where each country — seen since february 24, 2022, where each country has been making its own way towards _ each country has been making its own way towards supporting ukraine in its time _ way towards supporting ukraine in its time of— way towards supporting ukraine in its time of need because of an illegal— its time of need because of an illegal and non—justifiable invasion. illegal and non-“ustifiable invasion_ illegal and non-“ustifiable invasin_ illegal and non-“ustifiable invasion. , , ., ., invasion. give us an idea, given our invasion. give us an idea, given your exnerience _ invasion. give us an idea, given your experience here, - invasion. give us an idea, given your experience here, what - invasion. give us an idea, given your experience here, what is l invasion. give us an idea, givenj your experience here, what is it like in the room when zaleski is touring and speaking to world leaders? what is the demeanour, what is the demands commodity
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conversations? is a great question, because i've never felt anything like that before. president zelensky at the nato table with all of the nato ., . at the nato table with all of the nato ., , , ,., , at the nato table with all of the nato ., , , , , at the nato table with all of the nato ., , , , ., nato leaders, everybody broke out into a applies _ nato leaders, everybody broke out into a applies to _ nato leaders, everybody broke out into a applies to welcome - nato leaders, everybody broke out into a applies to welcome him. - nato leaders, everybody broke out| into a applies to welcome him. the mood _ into a applies to welcome him. the mood was— into a applies to welcome him. the mood was one of unification, collaboration, coordination and certainly— collaboration, coordination and certainly ukraine is part of the nato _ certainly ukraine is part of the nato family. we certainly ukraine is part of the nato family-— nato family. we saw a lot of messages — nato family. we saw a lot of messages and _ nato family. we saw a lot of messages and we _ nato family. we saw a lot of messages and we heard - nato family. we saw a lot of messages and we heard lots nato family. we saw a lot of. messages and we heard lots of messages and we heard lots of messages about that, but they're still frustration from him that their formal invitation to join and that fixed timetable, not there. can you understand that frustration? let's compare ukraine's situation to estonia's_ let's compare ukraine's situation to estonia's application to be part of nato~ _ estonia's application to be part of nato~ that — estonia's application to be part of nato. that was a multiyear process with the _ nato. that was a multiyear process with the country having to comply with the country having to comply with full—fledged documents. the road map— with full—fledged documents. the road map aspect of the application has been _ road map aspect of the application has been completely removed from ukraine _ has been completely removed from ukraine now, and it will sit as a
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member— ukraine now, and it will sit as a member of— ukraine now, and it will sit as a member of the council. ukraine will be at _ member of the council. ukraine will be at the _ member of the council. ukraine will be at the table and it is part of nato _ be at the table and it is part of nato family and certainly this is on track for— nato family and certainly this is on track for ukraine membership. xview, track for ukraine membership. very, very quickly. — track for ukraine membership. very, very quickly. your — track for ukraine membership. very, very quickly, your response - track for ukraine membership. - very quickly, your response to the uk minister perhaps saying that zelensky needs to be grateful? what do you make of that? i will! zelensky needs to be grateful? what do you make of that?— do you make of that? i will say that my meeting — do you make of that? i will say that my meeting with — do you make of that? i will say that my meeting with president - do you make of that? i will say that | my meeting with president zelensky showed _ my meeting with president zelensky showed nothing but gratitude and indy we _ showed nothing but gratitude and indy we discussed additional aid that ukraine needs at this time and canada _ that ukraine needs at this time and canada has — that ukraine needs at this time and canada has been there with over $1.5 billion— canada has been there with over $1.5 billion of— canada has been there with over $1.5 billion of military aid in over a billion— billion of military aid in over a billion of— billion of military aid in over a billion of eight overall.- billion of military aid in over a billion of eight overall. thank you so much for— billion of eight overall. thank you so much for coming _ billion of eight overall. thank you so much for coming on _ billion of eight overall. thank you so much for coming on bbc - billion of eight overall. thank you | so much for coming on bbc news. billion of eight overall. thank you - so much for coming on bbc news. -- 8 so much for coming on bbc news. —— 8 billion overall. in lithuania, with that, i will hand back to the studio. . ., . ' lewis, thank you. around the world and across the uk, this is bbc news. let's look at some of
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the other stories making headlines here in the uk. uk banks are strong enough to withstand a fresh economic crisis. that's according to the bank of england. in a "stress test" of the financial system, the bank said the uk's eight largest lenders could survive a worst case scenario. that would involve plunging house prices and soaring inflation. the bank also said the country has "so far been resilient" to rising interest rates. the prime minister rishi sunak says he is yet to make a "final decision" on whether to accept recommended pay rises for public sector workers. official pay review bodies are recommending rises of between 6 and 6.5% for teachers, junior doctors and police. the prime minister and chancellor are expected to meet in the coming days to decide whether to accept the rises. and an ambulance service has apologised to families following a review into claims it covered up errors by paramedics and withheld evidence. the chief executive of the north east ambulance service issued an apology "for any distress caused to the families" by past mistakes.
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those, some of the stories making headlines here in the uk. you're live with bbc news. the bbc presenter who's been accused of paying a teenager for explicit photographs is facing further allegations in today's papers. the sun says it has spoken to a 23—year—old, who claims the male presenter broke covid lockdown rules to travel to meet them, after making contact on a dating site. there have been more calls today for the presenter — who's not being named for legal reasons — to come forward. 0ur media correspondent david sillito reports. the bbc and day five of this media storm, and the headlines keep coming. today, more allegations that the bbc star broke lockdown to meet another young stranger. it follows the original story which featured allegations about payments for explicit photos, and another revealed by bbc news about messages that were felt by the recipient to be abusive and threatening.
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and for one fellow bbc presenter, who was today speaking on his show on channel 5, there was concern for his colleague's state of mind but also a feeling that the current situation cannot continue. it's his decision, but he needs to come forward now, i think. i know his survival instinct has kicked in and i know he saw what happened to phillip schofield, but, my god, look at the damage to the bbc. look at the damage to his friends, to those falsely accused. and the longer he leaves it, the worst it will be for him. and outside broadcasting house, it was an opinion being echoed by a former editor of sky and now professor ofjournalism. the presenter, in my view, really ought to come forward and talk about it. it would be cathartic for the presenter, it would be informative for us, and it would probably be the right thing to do. the public aren't daft — they want to know what's going on here, and only when they know what's going on can they decide how they feel about that presenter. however, it's the
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presenter�*s decision. there are multiple legal barriers to others making the name public. meanwhile, inside the bbc, its investigation into the matter has been put on pause at the request of the police, as they consider whether there is any evidence of criminality. but the corporation's director—general admits there are still questions about the speed of the bbc�*s response to the original complaint. i think there's a valid question that i am asking, which is, "how are complaints like this red—flagged through "the organisation? " and i want that immediately looked at, and also review the overall process and protocols to make sure we're satisfied by them. and while the sun has stood by its original story, saying they have a sworn affidavit from the young person's mother, there are questions. lawyers who say they represent the young person say the story was totally wrong and there was no truth in it. it was rubbish, they say. the sun has so far declined
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the bbc�*s request for an interview. david sillito, bbc news. let's turn to a couple of other stories to take you through. the celebrated czech writer milan kundera has died. he relocated to france, he became a french citizen after being stripped of his homeland citizenship, although that was restored four years ago. his international fame grew when the —— the unbearable lightness 0f —— the unbearable lightness of being was made into a film. great pictures to show you now. interruption continues to send lava and rock pouring out of a volcano near iceland's capital reykjavik.
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dangerous gases are being released. this eruption is a type that does not usually result in large explosions or a significant amount of ash in the stratosphere, unlike the one back in 2010, which saw tens of thousands of flights across europe cancelled. before we take a break, let me take you back to vilnius, because we have been seeing through the course of the last few hours all those meetings, news conference, these the pictures of joe biden and president zelensky earlier. we are expecting to hear from the us president very shortly. you will not miss a minute of that, here on bbc news. hello there. we saw some glimpses of warm sunshine today, but the heavy showers were never too far away. and it's a very different weather pattern at the moment compared with what we had last month. it's lower pressure that's dominating across northern europe, particularly here at home, which is why it's cooler. high pressure in the south of europe. and this, of course,
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is where we're seeing some very high temperatures. the heat is getting drawn up from the north—west of africa. this is the temperature anomaly chart. so where you've got the reds, it's hotter than it would normally be. so that's mainly focused across southern parts of europe. but briefly, further north, things may heat up a bit over the weekend, but not here at home. it's going to be low pressure that keeps it very changeable. now, we've seen a lot of showers earlier on. they're continuing for a while, particularly across scotland, but it should become dry in many areas overnight. the winds will ease down a bit as well. and temperatures, well, they'll drop away to around 10 or 11 degrees. many places starting dry tomorrow with some sunshine. but again, as we get a bit of summer warmth, the cloud will bubble up. we'll see some showers developing, pushing eastwards across england and wales. the odd one for northern ireland, but the heavier showers are more likely to be across scotland. may not be quite as windy tomorrow. it may feel a little bit warmer, but those temperatures aren't changing much at all — 18 to 22 degrees. by the time we get to friday, we've got another area of low pressure bringing wind and rain,
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this one coming in from the south—west. ahead of that main rain arriving on friday, we've got this patchy rain heading northwards from overnight, up into scotland, but it's across other parts of the uk that it turns wetter and windier, particularly across parts of wales and the south—west of england. here, there could be 40 millimetres of rain or more over the hills of south wales and the moors of the south—west. and around coasts, the winds could be close to gusting 50 miles an hourfor a while — and within that rain, there could be a few thunderstorms. something a little bit warmer in the south—east before we get the rain later. but otherwise, those temperatures are disappointing once again. and over the weekend, low pressure continues to dominate the weather. it's only moving slowly northwards across the uk. we may see some improvements from the south later on in the weekend. a lot of isobars on the chart. it's going to be unusually windy, really, for this time of year. and the weekend, we'll see some sunshine but some heavy, thundery downpours, and once again, staying on the cool side.
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welcome back our main headlines here. leaders of the g7 pledge security guarantee is for ukraine with joe security guarantee is for ukraine withjoe biden and rishi sunak both stressing ukraine willjoin nato. it will�*s future is in nato and we have
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taken a big step this week will�*s future is in nato and we have taken a big step maybe ek will�*s future is in nato and we have taken a big step maybe the minister are our partner. maybe the minister wants. _

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