welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. nicolas maduro has one key asset. durability. over the past decade he has overseen a crumbling economy, hyperinflation, widespread hunger and the exodus of a quarter of venezuela's population. yet he is still in power and the opposition�*s big idea, the creation of an alternative government has foundered. next year, there is supposed to be a presidential election. my guest, maria corina machado, is currently frontrunner among opposition candidates. but does she have any realistic chance of toppling venezuela's strongman?

maria corina machado. welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much, stephen, it is a pleasure. great to have you on the show. for years, you have argued that participating in democracy in venezuela under nicolas maduro�*s rule, is a grave mistake because it ends up legitimising maduro. how come you have now decided to your hat in the ring how come you have now decided to put your hat in the ring and seek the nomination from the opposition, to fight in next year's presidential elections? for years, venezuela's people have been explaining to the world the way

nicolas maduro have been rigging elections and turning down through control and repression, thejudiciary system, the national assembly, as well as the military at every single democratic institution. we have reached a point in which we realise maduro is willing to do anything to stay in power. the only way through which we can confront and defeat him is building a huge, unprecedented social movement, citizen movement that is right now arousing and growing. finally, the world has to understand that this is a criminal system, much worse than a conventional dictatorship, and the only way we can stop migration, we can stop this totalisation of democratic systems in other countries in the region is by transition to democracy. that requires strength, certainly, as well as a company and support from democratic nations throughout the world.

i'm still puzzled as to why you think it is going to be possible for you to run in an election while nicolas maduro is still in power. you've just described what you see is all of the massive negatives about maduro�*s control of your country, so, is your standing, seeking to be the opposition candidate, is that a purely symbolic value, do you believe this election will never happen or what? oh, it's not symbolic, it is realistic. and it is growing in strength and support and hope. we are certainly not the same, stephen, as we were years ago. we, the venezuelan people, and certainly, the regime. it is important to understand maduro has sacked the country, not only the oil enterprises, as well as the rest of the economy has been destroyed. they have robbed every single resource, and has our country

totally indebted, debts that they cannot pay, because no—one is going to invest in a country that is last, i mean last in every single index of rule of law, in the world. so, they have, right now, huge problems, they have arms, certainly but even the support of the regime on the basis and middle ranks of the armed forces and police is melting down because people in the military and in other groups, do have family — sisters, mothers, children that are also starving. but... over 9 million people in venezuela are under starvation right now. the regime is not the same, the world understands maduro is toxic. how credible are you as the woman to topple maduro when actually you have been banned from holding public office for 15 years? even if you were to win the nomination to represent

the opposition, later this year, under venezuela's current laws, you could not run for president? the question will be, don't you think, that is proof how much the regime fears facing us, facing me in the next year election. because, actually, as you have said, where all the opposition forces have accepted is going to primary process that has nothing to do with the regime or the institutions they control. it is a private process of democratic and citizen forces, in which every single venezuelan inside our country or abroad can participate. certainly, that exercise will provide us of a huge legitimacy to have, you know, a single voice, towards international community, around a strong and robust strategy, how to face a regime and start overcoming every

single obstacle. believe me, trying to disqualify me is just one of a large list of very tough obstacles we need to face, and overcome in order to have a free and fair election in venezuela. we are 18 months away from that day, though, and we do have time to build strength. one of the biggest obstacles you've got is actually sort of an act of self—harm, in that the opposition in venezuela has been deeply embarrassed and damaged by the failure of that political initiative launched byjuan guaido back in 2019 to offer up an alternative government, to say maduro is legitimate and i am the real the real leader of the venezuela. the americans backed that idea and many countries in the west and latin america but the whole thing ran out of steam. guaido is now politically

finished and it embarrassed the entire venezuelan opposition because it made you look incoherent. would you acknowledge that? let's say we have had several set backs, that is true, you have to understand we are facing a criminal regime that's willing to do anything, to persecute, to blackmail, to go against families, and that is one of the reasons you see people will use to trust, in different sectors, not only politicians, that somehow, decide to abandon the fight. and it's tough and i don't want tojudge anyone. but that is why venezuelan people have in the last month somewhat, let's say, quieter, more calm, with a step back, but suddenly, with the whole idea of the primary process, venezuela has awakened. what we've seen in the last five months is impressive,

we have not seen this before, i have been fighting against this regime for over 20 years. (crosstalk) forgive me for interrupting, but when you talk about this new move and mood in venezuela, i'm thinking to myself, i've visited your country several times. in 2014, 2017, we saw mass protests on the streets, hundreds of thousands of venezuelans demanding political change and the end to maduro�*s regime. we don't see those crowds today. you in the opposition are not mobilising ordinary venezuelans today, in the way that you did let's say, nine years ago oi’ seven years ago? actually, it's different, you are right. a lot of people believe that 2024 might be their last chance to have their families back together. the last chance now to lose whatever they have left, in their small businesses,

or properties, and even the last chance to stay in venezuela. so this fight has turned beyond a political one, and this fight has turned into a spiritual one, existential one. i have never seen something like this before, i have been in the streets for 23 years and you know that. i do think the regime is worried because they know this is new, they are losing their grip on society, and social control through food stamps and money they give to people that behave well. they have lost their control on the base of the military. i do think it's going to be tough, i think the primary process should be care, taking care of. i hope the international community understands the only way we can stop migration and the destruction of venezuela, is through giving back hope to our country, that we do have possibility, a way to pave out through

a democratic and pacific process, and i am committed to that. and we will go all the way, regardless of what the regime does to me and all the people. we will get to the international community and what you want to see from them injust a minute. another question about the internal politics of venezuela. you have always been one of the most outspoken, one of the most radical, militant representatives of the opposition, in that you have opposed dialogue with maduro, you want to see socialism completely dismantled, that has always been your position. there are others who have a different position. there are opposition leaders who agreed to go into a dialogue, a negotiating process with maduro�*s people in mexico at the end of last year, it's supposed to be continuing this year, right now, it seems stuck. there are those in the opposition who think best way forward is to negotiate

with maduro? do you think they're wrong? i do not discard negotiation at some point but i do want a negotiation when we can force a regime to move forward through a transition to democracy. i do not want a negotiation to have the status quo in place, which is what has happened in the last 15 initiatives of dialogue that have taken place in the last 20 years. we have to be very objective, what has been the outcome of these dialogues, maduro has gained legitimacy, money and time, which is at the end, what they want, and they do not care about venezuela being destroyed and people dying. my point is we need to gain strength and legitimacy, to go into a true negotiation table, in which the people of venezuela can be sitting at that table and in which not a few representatives of the democratic sector get what they want. once again, i believe

the primary process will be a unique opportunity to have that leadership legitimised so we can go into a new negotiation, in which we will be in a relative position, stronger relative position in order to have true negotiations with the regime. you claim to speak for all venezuelans but let us remember your background, ms machado. you come from an elite family, yourfather ran one of the biggest steel companies in venezuela before the socialist revolution. you are educated partly in the united states and have travelled all over the world. most venezuelans right now are experiencing profound poverty, suffering real hunger, a quarter of the population has fled from venezuela. do you think you really understand ordinary venezuelans, especially when you say your solution for venezuela is a sort of thatcherite, free market capitalism in which you even want to see the oil industry in your country completely privatised ? do you think ordinary venezuelans really agree

with you on that sort of thing? absolutely. over 20 years of socialism has turned venezuela into a country that desires to have prosperity, to have open markets, respect for private property and dignity. mainly, dignity. that you can live and you can succeed with your work and live with dignity. that you can have employment, that give you the possibility of living well. and that obsession of dividing our country into black and white, rich and poor, the past and the present, has turned down. we are citizens, we all long the same, we want to have our families together and our kids back home, we want to have a country where we can live with respect and recognise each other and our plurality, which is essential to

democracy. and this is beautiful because for the first time in our history, yes, we are proposing a vision, a development of venezuela which has the individual and the family at the centre. not the state on top of us. venezuelan is more than willing to embrace this possibility, and very excited about it, especially with the poor and the young. i do want to be a little personal with you, you have talked about your own family, you have three children and all of them are currently living outside of venezuela. i just wonder when you talk about the millions of venezuelans who fled from the country, whether you, given you are separated from your own children, whether you really think right now, it is worth staying in venezuela, and fighting nicholas maduro politically? it is absolutely worth it, and i'm sure that one day, when we look back,

we will agree with that. a few days ago, a woman told me, she told me, you are the only instrument i have left to bring my kids back, and i looked at her back, and i say, you are the only one i have to bring my own. so this is very profound, this is very powerful, and even though i sometimes feel very guilty that i have not been with my children in very important moments of their lives, i have been banned from leaving venezuela for over ten years, i'm sure they realise we're doing this for them, because i want them to all, as well as the rest of venezuela, old and young in venezuela to live in a country they can feel proud of. earlier, you were saying you are looking to the international community in your support to get free and fair elections, genuine democracy, to venezuela.

how disappointed are you that the tide seems to be running against you and in favour of nicolas maduro, particularly in your home region, latin america, with a host of new leftist leaders in power in key governments across the region, and leaders who are expressing a much warmer, more sympathetic feeling towards nicolas maduro and his socialist government? we have to understand that nicolas maduro isn't kind of alone in this process. he has a wide range of relations with criminal networks that go from drug cartels to guerilla groups, terrorist groups in the middle east... hang on, i have to stop you, ms machado, i'm not talking about shady characters and criminal networks. i'm talking about a new generation of democratically elected leaders across latin america. for example, just a month

or two ago, president lula in brazil expressed his much warmer feelings towards nicolas maduro. we've got the colombian president gustavo petro, who seems to be much less inclined to support the venezuelan opposition and much readier to do deals with nicolas maduro. all i'm saying is the regional environment has changed, and not in a way that favours you. let me get there, because that's how it looks right now, but it's important to understand that nicolas maduro�*s ties with russia, with putin, with iran are closer and more evident than ever. so those kind of let's say ideological supports that he might get from those you mentioned start to be questioned, just see what the president of chile just did a few days ago, and say no, no, there are democratic and human rights, huge violations in venezuela, which are a red line, so maduro�*s turning into a toxic lie and lula's

attempt to embrace maduro backfired in his own country, in his own congress. so let's say these are ideologically closer presidents in the region will understand it is within their own interest to push maduro into a kind of transition, such as the one that we represent, in which we are willing to do an orderly and sustainable transition in which we will open to our whole society, and we will go through a strong and serious negotiation process, in which maduro will understand it is the only opportunity he has left, and that his allies will support it as well into having free and fair elections at the end of next year in venezuela. the thing is, you're trying

to put a positive gloss on it, and you want to believe that international pressure is mounting on maduro, but surely the biggest problem you've got of all, in many ways, is in the united states, where it's quite clear that the era of so—called maximum pressure on venezuela has come to an end? the us, given its absolute preoccupation with the ukraine war, is looking to forge new energy ties, which may well include using venezuelan oil, but they also have indicated, and i'm quoting a us official who spoke just short time ago here, he said the biden administration does not want to keep sanctions on venezuela in perpetuity. the new atmosphere in washington is really not helping you at all, is it? no, it's not helping and perhaps a reason was they were very pessimistic because they weren't seeing the possibility of a true change and maduro being defeated, but that has changed dramatically in the last months, especially

in the last weeks. no serious investment will come in a country where there is no rule of law and the only way venezuela can turn into that energy hub of the americas is with our government, and that's precisely what we will do. so we need to align the interest of all stakeholders and make them understand that it is the greatest opportunity for everyone, creditors, bondholders, investors, and certainly the venezuelan people. so having this chance, this true chance to believe again there is a huge opportunity to defeat maduro next year, that this social movement is growing, that it will not be stopped, i hope and i believe that they will change the policies in certain countries that have lost faith in venezuela and it will come from us, the people. we will not be stopped. we will not be disqualified, and we will not give up. we will fight until the end, and we will bring back democracy and families back

together in venezuela. right. we're almost at an end but you have just used a very interesting phrase, "we, the venezuelan people", interesting phrase, "we, the venezuelan people," you just said. are you sure your interests truly align with the ordinary people of venezuela? one last issue i want to put to you, sanctions, particularly the tough us sanctions on venezuela, you say they must be maintained, you do not want to see relaxation. many venezuelans say something very different. they are hurting, ordinary venezuelans, who are suffering terrible poverty anyway, and they would love to see a relaxation of sanctions. again, are you sure that your particular interest as an elite opposition leader, coincide with those of the venezuelan people? stephen, i am a venezuelan citizen. i do not divide people in any

of those categories, which socialism does. unfortunately, this is something we all are venezuelan share right now. i am a venezuelan mother with my kids very far, and i want to ensure they all have the opportunity to grow in a free country that gives opportunity to all. and perhaps you should come soon and feel the magnitude of this energy growing. sanctions are a consequence of huge, you know, obscene violations of human rights, corruption and trafficking and should be used to pressure the regime to move forward in what we all venezuelan stream, which is to have a country where we can be back together, where we have respect where we have justice, and most of all we have dignity and freedom. and that's what we represent today. so i am confident that even though we have huge changes in the face of us, huge challenges, we've been preparing for over two decades for a moment in which we can

put all of that talent and accumulated strength and experience, and the time has arrived, and this is the time, and we will do it right, and we will go until the end. we unfortunately have reached time on this interview. i have to end it there, but, maria corina machado, it's been a pleasure talking to you. thanks for talking to me from caracas. thank you very much. hello. wednesday brought glimpses

of warm sunshine, but we also had a lot of showers developing again, and the next few days stay very unsettled. we've got some downpours never too far away, quite strong winds at times, and it's going to stay cool as well. it's a very different weather pattern across europe this month compared with last month. higher pressure in southern europe, and this is where we've got those very high temperatures. it's cooler further north, mind you, low pressure is dominant, particularly here in the uk. and we'll see some sunshine around on thursday, particularly to begin with, but the clouds will develop, we'll see a scattering of showers breaking out. the heavier ones, perhaps thundery, will be in scotland. now it may not be quite as windy, i think, on thursday, it may feel a little warmer, but temperatures aren't changing very much — 18—22 celsius. and heading to the end of the week, we've got another area of low pressure. this one is coming in from the south—west. it'll bring some wet and windy conditions. ahead of the main rain, we've got this patchy rain from overnight moving northwards into scotland, but it's down towards

the south—west that it gets particularly wet and windy. very gusty winds here, some heavy rain over the hills, and that could lead to some localised flooding as well. bit of warmth for a while in the south—east before we get the wetter weather later in the day, but there could be some thunderstorms in there as well. and that same area of low pressure is going to hang around into much of the weekend. we've got the weather fronts heading northwards, but wrapping around the centre of the low we've got this cluster of heavy, thundery showers coming into northern and western areas. a bit drier, perhaps, towards the east. not too windy for scotland and northern ireland, but we've got stronger winds more widely across england and wales. gusts of 35—a0mph in many inland areas, with stronger winds along the coast in the south and the west. and again, those temperatures are disappointing for the time of year. 18 to maybe 23 celsius, but that's a little below par for this time of the year. that area of low pressure continues to wander its way northwards, so we should see some improvements from the south during the second half of the weekend as it turns a bit drier here, but still pretty windy.

as you head further north across the uk, this is where we've got the showers, perhaps some longer spells of rain. stronger winds in scotland and northern ireland during sunday as the low pressure starts to move away, and temperatures only 16 celsius in glasgow, 21 perhaps in london in the sunshine. that low pressure does eventually move away, and for the start of next week at least it looks a little bit quieter. we've still got some stronger winds perhaps across some northern parts of scotland — otherwise the winds will be lighter, there'll be some sunshine. there'll be a few showers, but they should be fewer and they should be lighter as well. temperatures not changing too much — again only around 17—22 celsius. now, there is a bit of rain here in the far southwest, so we need to keep an eye on that. that could be an area of low pressure that moves its way quickly eastwards as we head into tuesday. but by the end of next week we've got another, larger area of low pressure again tracking in from the atlantic. so the outlook through next

week still very unsettled, and this is the pattern of the jet stream, so we're on the cooler side of the jet stream in that cooler air. so those temperatures are still cooler, lower than they should be at this time of the year, 17—23 celsius, and while it may start a bit drier at the beginning of the week, things will get a bit wetter and windier more widely later on.

who is in hospital with live from london, live from london, this is bbc news. this is bbc news. at least one person has died at least one person has died and four people are injured and four people are injured in ukraine, as russian drones hit the capital city. junior doctors in england begin a five—day strike this morning in a major escalation of their pay dispute with the government.

the bbc will restart its investigation into huw edwards —