�* make sense on a fun. does it really make sense on a spreadsheet? you know, labour market return, return on investment, and goes that degree. what is good for the economy is not necessarily good for the soul. you might decide to be with your degree or whatever you might want to be, work for charity, start your own business, become a wandering minstrel. and what you actually mean by success? will this disadvantage the already disadvantaged? and these institutions, they need cash. the government wants young people to reach their potential and grow our economy. this started under tony blair. now nearly 40% of young people go to university. is that too many? the message to some of them seems to be you are wasting your time, don't waste our money. students, lecturers, employers, portrait artists, professional clowns, get in touch, is the

university degree worth the paper it is written on and the money it costs? is your degree a rip—off? and here is the news from bethan holmes. rishi sunak is to announce he'll crack down on what he calls — �*rip off�* degrees that don't lead to graduatejobs. under the plans — universities in england will be forced to limit the number of students on underperforming courses. labour say it'll �*put up fresh barriers to opportunity.�* results of a clinical trial of a new drug which shows positive signs of slowing down alzheimer's — by about a third — will be published this afternoon. a conference is being held in the netherlands on the results of the drug donanemab. the bridge linking russia to the occupied crimea

peninsula in ukraine, has been closed because of what the moscow—backed authorities have described as an emergency. they say two people have been killed. a source in ukraine's security service has told bbc russian — it was behind the attack. people across parts of continental europe are being told to prepare for an extreme heatwave over the next few days. temperatures of 48 degrees have been forecast in sicily and sardinia. is your degree a rip—off? students, young people are being sold a dream, says the prime minister. the point i made early on when i was thinking about this, i made it to myself, ai doesn't dream. it ai comes into this. we need ai proof degrees in the future, maybe

it will all change because of that. is your degree a rip—off? maybe it depends on the subject you do and also we have to say the university you go to as well. the cynic said, they are people who know the cost of everything on the value of nothing. it is a good thing to discuss and i know lots of you will have views and experiences. vicki mead is studying social change at the university of essex. good to have you on. and in mansfield, the director of research at the policy exchange. hi. and sonia blackford, professor of social mobility at plymouth university. hello, sonia. ian, lay it out as to what is behind this? do you agree with this? i what is behind this? do you agree with this? , , ., , ., with this? i broadly do but you have to ut it in with this? i broadly do but you have to put it in context. _ with this? i broadly do but you have to put it in context. in _ with this? i broadly do but you have to put it in context. in the _ with this? i broadly do but you have to put it in context. in the last - with this? i broadly do but you have to put it in context. in the last 15 i to put it in context. in the last 15 years the number of degrees on offer has exploded by about 30% we have

almost a third more people going to university and at the same time the number of people doing adult education in colleges con doing apprenticeships has dropped significantly. that might be fine if all of the new degrees were high—quality but if you look at them a lot of them have huge dropout rates, sometimes over 50%, very few people then going on to graduate jobs and you have to say that when students are paying betting up to 50 grand in debt for this they are a rip—off and we need better quality control over these. mit? rip-off and we need better quality control over these.— control over these. why is the taxa er control over these. why is the taxpayer being _ control over these. why is the taxpayer being ripped - control over these. why is the taxpayer being ripped off? - control over these. why is the i taxpayer being ripped off? gillian keegan and the prime minister seem to be saying that. because they will get the money back. the? to be saying that. because they will get the money back.— get the money back. they won't because the _ get the money back. they won't because the taxpayer _ get the money back. they won't because the taxpayer rights - get the money back. they won't because the taxpayer rights at l get the money back. they won't - because the taxpayer rights at about half of the student loans, io half of the student loans, 10 billion disproportionately, the courses which don't give you the skills to succeed in life you will not be paying it back —— writes off about half of the student loans. these are not people that want to work for charities. these are

courses churning out systematically have the people who start the course getting nowhere in their life and they are being sold a dream because they are being sold a dream because they are being sold a dream because they are promised the university will be the gateway to success and it just will be the gateway to success and itjust is not. i will be the gateway to success and itjust is not-— itjust is not. i 'ust typed something _ itjust is not. ijust typed something you _ itjust is not. ijust typed something you said. - itjust is not. ijust typed something you said. the j itjust is not. ijust typed - something you said. the skills you need to succeed in life. what is success? it need to succeed in life. what is success? , , ., ., ., success? it is up to an individual to define success. _ success? it is up to an individual to define success. isn't - success? it is up to an individual to define success. isn't the - to define success. isn't the government _ to define success. isn't the government defining - to define success. isn't the l government defining success to define success. isn't the - government defining success by saying what they are saying today? here is an example, russell group universities, here are some courses you can do at russell group universities. anglo—saxon, norse and celtic at cambridge. egyptology, ancient near eastern studies at oxford, education studies at durham, applied golf management, university of birmingham and parapsychology, university of edinburgh. should those leaders specifically, parapsychology, golf management, para psychology, golf management, education parapsychology, golf management, education study, egyptology and anglo—saxon, should there be a line

from the degree to the job? h0 anglo-saxon, should there be a line from the degree to the job?- from the degree to the “ob? no one is sa in: from the degree to the “ob? no one is saying that they _ from the degree to the “ob? no one is saying that they are _ from the degree to the job? no one is saying that they are but - from the degree to the job? no one is saying that they are but that's - is saying that they are but that's just a completely false premise being put up. people are saying that there shouldn't be degrees that more than half of people drop out of and there shouldn't be degrees which you can't get into any form of graduate job. i would emphasise there is almost no quality control over universities. they go to print their own degrees, they determine who gets a 2:1, or a first, it is in the case in schools or hospitals, this lack of quality control. what the government is controlling is some very modest controls over what has become a little bit of a racket, frankly. fit, become a little bit of a racket, frankl . �* ., . ., become a little bit of a racket, frankl. . s ., become a little bit of a racket, frankl. . . ., ., frankly. a racket? wow! professor steve west. _ frankly. a racket? wow! professor steve west, president _ frankly. a racket? wow! professor steve west, president of - steve west, president of universities uk, vice chancellor of the university of the west of england, bristol. i know you can't stay for long. a bit of a racket, professing my what you think of that? i professing my what you think of that? ,, �* , , ., ., that? i think it's very unfortunate that? i think it's very unfortunate that ian that? i think it's very unfortunate that ian is _ that? i think it's very unfortunate that ian is speaking _ that? i think it's very unfortunate that ian is speaking that - that? i think it's very unfortunate| that ian is speaking that language and equally the prime minister speaking similar language. i think we need _ speaking similar language. i think we need to understand what does go

on in universities. universities are quality— on in universities. universities are quality control, there is an external— quality control, there is an external examiner system and that is the envy— external examiner system and that is the envy of— external examiner system and that is the envy of the world in terms of the envy of the world in terms of the quality— the envy of the world in terms of the quality of provision. sol the envy of the world in terms of the quality of provision. so i do think— the quality of provision. so i do think that — the quality of provision. so i do think that the language is perhaps not helpful. what i would much prefer — not helpful. what i would much prefer to — not helpful. what i would much prefer to do is to have a conversation with government and with policy— conversation with government and with policy advisers about what are we trying _ with policy advisers about what are we trying to deliver within our university— we trying to deliver within our university systems. there are 2.8 million _ university systems. there are 2.8 million students studying in universities across 30,000 courses. and all— universities across 30,000 courses. and all of— universities across 30,000 courses. and all of those graduates are reading — and all of those graduates are reading subjects that interest them and are _ reading subjects that interest them and are important to them. many of those _ and are important to them. many of those subjects are leading to careers— those subjects are leading to careers in professions and are supporting the country. and i do think— supporting the country. and i do think that — supporting the country. and i do think that there is something to have _ think that there is something to have a — think that there is something to have a conversation around in respect — have a conversation around in respect of— have a conversation around in respect of ensuring that we provide the right— respect of ensuring that we provide the right information for students to make — the right information for students to make choices, and then alongside that that _ to make choices, and then alongside that that they are given an

understanding of what their subject and their— understanding of what their subject and their career ambitions are likely— and their career ambitions are likely to — and their career ambitions are likely to deliver for them over a lifetime — likely to deliver for them over a lifetime. rememberthat likely to deliver for them over a lifetime. remember that students are paying _ lifetime. remember that students are paying back, or graduates are now paying _ paying back, or graduates are now paying back, or graduates are now paying back over a 40 year period. that's _ paying back over a 40 year period. that's a _ paying back over a 40 year period. that's a very — paying back over a 40 year period. that's a very long time. therefore some _ that's a very long time. therefore some of— that's a very long time. therefore some of the — that's a very long time. therefore some of the skills that we are looking — some of the skills that we are looking for in all graduates is not 'ust looking for in all graduates is not just discipline, it is more generic skills— just discipline, it is more generic skills around agility to problem solve, — skills around agility to problem solve, to — skills around agility to problem solve, to work in teams, the ability to critique. — solve, to work in teams, the ability to critique, the ability to be lifelong _ to critique, the ability to be lifelong learners and change over a course _ lifelong learners and change over a course of _ lifelong learners and change over a course of a — lifelong learners and change over a course of a lifetime. even the prime minister— course of a lifetime. even the prime minister can't predict for us what we are _ minister can't predict for us what we are likely to see in terms of graduate — we are likely to see in terms of graduate jobs over the next five years _ graduate jobs over the next five years so — graduate jobs over the next five years so i _ graduate jobs over the next five years. so i do think this is a really— years. so i do think this is a really important subject and we need to give _ really important subject and we need to give it _ really important subject and we need to give it some serious consideration. is to give it some serious consideration. , , . ., ., consideration. is gillian keegan and the prime minister _ consideration. is gillian keegan and the prime minister and _ consideration. is gillian keegan and the prime minister and others - consideration. is gillian keegan and| the prime minister and others right, andindeed the prime minister and others right, and indeed ian mansfield, that we have a right as taxpayers to expect that people do degrees that will ultimately benefit the economy? i

think clearly the taxpayer and the individual— think clearly the taxpayer and the individual has the right to expect universities to deliver quality education and quality provision that will enable people to ensure that they fulfil their futures. tagging it to a _ they fulfil their futures. tagging it to a particular employment in the future _ it to a particular employment in the future is _ it to a particular employment in the future is really difficult. i can't determine what in five years or ten years' _ determine what in five years or ten years' time — determine what in five years or ten years' time is going to be in the workplace _ years' time is going to be in the workplace. we have to ensure that we -ive workplace. we have to ensure that we give people _ workplace. we have to ensure that we give people skills and knowledge that allow them to adapt over time and they— that allow them to adapt over time and they need to study subjects that are of— and they need to study subjects that are of interest to them and deliver are of interest to them and deliver a good _ are of interest to them and deliver a good prospect of employability in the future, which is a changing world — the future, which is a changing world. these are global citizens and in a global— world. these are global citizens and in a global knowledge economy and that is— in a global knowledge economy and that is what we need to ensure we are preparing for. and therefore trying _ are preparing for. and therefore trying to— are preparing for. and therefore trying to pick winners now may not be trying to pick winners now may not he the _ trying to pick winners now may not be the answer for the future. i do, however. — be the answer for the future. i do, however, absolutely agree that we need to _ however, absolutely agree that we need to ensure that we have standards and quality being

delivered in our universities. and some _ delivered in our universities. and some of— delivered in our universities. and some of the metrics that are there are designed to help universities and students and advisors understand the quality— and students and advisors understand the quality of the provision. i'm absolutely committed to that. i want ian to absolutely committed to that. i want ian to come — absolutely committed to that. i want ian to come back— absolutely committed to that. i want ian to come back on _ absolutely committed to that. i want ian to come back on that _ absolutely committed to that. i want ian to come back on that briefly - absolutely committed to that. i want ian to come back on that briefly and | ian to come back on that briefly and then we will go to some students, we will go to vicky as well. there was another phrase which struck me, which some people may think is self—indulgent, students must be able to do degrees that are important to them. what do you think? . �* , important to them. what do you think? . �*, ., ., , important to them. what do you think? . �*, ., .,, important to them. what do you think? . �*, ., important to them. what do you think? ., think? that's reasonable as far as it toes think? that's reasonable as far as it goes but _ think? that's reasonable as far as it goes but i _ think? that's reasonable as far as it goes but i don't _ think? that's reasonable as far as it goes but i don't think _ think? that's reasonable as far as it goes but i don't think any - it goes but i don't think any student of science up to go to a course where they know 50% of people drop out before they finish. we have not got a level playing field. universities up in arms about the fact that caps may be applied to a small number of courses. but every aduu small number of courses. but every adult education in the country, every fe college faces caps, the number of apprenticeships are capped. universities have sprinted

massively on the back of taxpayer largesse. what they are being asked to accept as a tiny fraction of the quality control that is already applied to other areas of education. and if fe colleges and apprenticeships have shrunk and paid the price of this vast expansion of university education. if we had a genuine level playing field here that would be much better than students could really choose what they wanted to do, whether that was an apprenticeship, college course, or go to do a degree. what an apprenticeship, college course, or go to do a degree.— an apprenticeship, college course, or go to do a degree. what did you do? i or go to do a degree. what did you do? i studied _ or go to do a degree. what did you do? i studied physics. _ or go to do a degree. what did you do? i studied physics. there - or go to do a degree. what did you do? i studied physics. there we i or go to do a degree. what did you i do? i studied physics. there we are, straitht do? i studied physics. there we are, strait ht to do? i studied physics. there we are, straight to the _ do? i studied physics. there we are, straight to the policy _ do? i studied physics. there we are, straight to the policy exchange. - straight to the policy exchange. gillian keegan did a bachelors degree in business studies. gillian keetan degree in business studies. gillian keegan left _ degree in business studies. gillian keegan left school _ degree in business studies. gillian keegan left school and _ degree in business studies. gillian keegan left school and started - degree in business studies. gillian keegan left school and started as| degree in business studies. (1: ii. an keegan left school and started as an apprentice. she later did degree. taste apprentice. she later did degree. we are talking about apprenticeships todayis are talking about apprenticeships today is welcome isn't the course to apprenticeships. rishi sunak matriculated at lincoln in 1998 in philosophy, politics and economics, graduating with a first—class degree

in 2001. what did he use that for?! let's go to our students, vicky and essex and james in cardiff. vicky, what you think of this? james, what do you think? vicky first.— do you think? vicky first. firstly, before i do you think? vicky first. firstly, before i get _ do you think? vicky first. firstly, before i get into _ do you think? vicky first. firstly, before i get into it _ do you think? vicky first. firstly, before i get into it i _ do you think? vicky first. firstly, before i get into it i wanted - do you think? vicky first. firstly, before i get into it i wanted to i before i get into it i wanted to pick— before i get into it i wanted to pick up — before i get into it i wanted to pick up on _ before i get into it i wanted to pick up on something - before i get into it i wanted to pick up on something that - before i get into it i wanted toj pick up on something that iain before i get into it i wanted to - pick up on something that iain said about— pick up on something that iain said about quality— pick up on something that iain said about quality control— pick up on something that iain said about quality control because - pick up on something that iain said about quality control because i- about quality control because i study — about quality control because i study at — about quality control because i study at the _ about quality control because i study at the university- about quality control because i study at the university of- about quality control because ii study at the university of essex about quality control because i- study at the university of essex but i study at the university of essex but i also _ study at the university of essex but i also work — study at the university of essex but i also work in — study at the university of essex but i also work in quality _ study at the university of essex but i also work in quality assurance - study at the university of essex but i also work in quality assurance in l i also work in quality assurance in partnership— i also work in quality assurance in partnership universities _ i also work in quality assurance in partnership universities and - i also work in quality assurance in partnership universities and i- i also work in quality assurance in partnership universities and ijustj partnership universities and ijust want _ partnership universities and ijust want to— partnership universities and ijust want to say— partnership universities and ijust want to say that _ partnership universities and ijust want to say that it _ partnership universities and ijust want to say that it is _ partnership universities and ijust want to say that it is quite - want to say that it is quite uninformed _ want to say that it is quite uninformed to— want to say that it is quite uninformed to say- want to say that it is quite uninformed to say there l want to say that it is quite| uninformed to say there is want to say that it is quite . uninformed to say there is no quality— uninformed to say there is no quality control— uninformed to say there is no quality control across - uninformed to say there is no - quality control across universities. there _ quality control across universities. there is— quality control across universities. there is a — quality control across universities. there is a huge _ quality control across universities. there is a huge amount _ quality control across universities. there is a huge amount of- quality control across universities. there is a huge amount of qualityl there is a huge amount of quality assurance — there is a huge amount of quality assurance that _ there is a huge amount of quality assurance that goes _ there is a huge amount of quality assurance that goes into - there is a huge amount of qualityj assurance that goes into courses, that's— assurance that goes into courses, that's my— assurance that goes into courses, that's my first— assurance that goes into courses, that's my first point. _ assurance that goes into courses, that's my first point. second - assurance that goes into courses, | that's my first point. second point is to say— that's my first point. second point is to say that _ that's my first point. second point is to say that i _ that's my first point. second point is to say that i think— that's my first point. second point is to say that i think it _ that's my first point. second point is to say that i think it is - that's my first point. second point is to say that i think it is such- that's my first point. second point is to say that i think it is such a i is to say that i think it is such a short-sighted _ is to say that i think it is such a short—sighted thing _ is to say that i think it is such a short—sighted thing to - is to say that i think it is such a short—sighted thing to think . is to say that i think it is such ai short—sighted thing to think ok, is to say that i think it is such a - short—sighted thing to think ok, we want to— short—sighted thing to think ok, we want to see — short—sighted thing to think ok, we want to see how— short—sighted thing to think ok, we want to see how many— short—sighted thing to think ok, we want to see how many graduates i short—sighted thing to think ok, wel want to see how many graduates are getting _ want to see how many graduates are getting this — want to see how many graduates are getting this many— want to see how many graduates are getting this manyjobs, _ want to see how many graduates are getting this manyjobs, you're - want to see how many graduates are getting this manyjobs, you're just i getting this manyjobs, you're just looking _ getting this manyjobs, you're just looking at— getting this manyjobs, you're just looking at a — getting this manyjobs, you're just looking at a spreadsheet, - getting this manyjobs, you're just looking at a spreadsheet, you i getting this manyjobs, you're just looking at a spreadsheet, you arei looking at a spreadsheet, you are not looking — looking at a spreadsheet, you are not looking at _ looking at a spreadsheet, you are not looking at the _ looking at a spreadsheet, you are not looking at the employment i not looking at the employment niarket. — not looking at the employment niarket. you're _ not looking at the employment market, you're not _ not looking at the employment market, you're not thinking i not looking at the employment i market, you're not thinking about how that — market, you're not thinking about how that niight— market, you're not thinking about how that might evolve _ market, you're not thinking about how that might evolve 20, - market, you're not thinking about how that might evolve 20, 30, i market, you're not thinking about| how that might evolve 20, 30, 40 years. _ how that might evolve 20, 30, 40 years. will— how that might evolve 20, 30, 40

years, will there _ how that might evolve 20, 30, 40 years, will there be _ how that might evolve 20, 30, 40 years, will there be another- how that might evolve 20, 30, 40 years, will there be another call. years, will there be another call for the — years, will there be another call for the creative _ years, will there be another call for the creative arts, _ years, will there be another call for the creative arts, will- years, will there be another call for the creative arts, will therel years, will there be another call. for the creative arts, will there be another— for the creative arts, will there be another call — for the creative arts, will there be another call for _ for the creative arts, will there be another call for history? - for the creative arts, will there be another call for history? other i another call for history? other areas — another call for history? other areas will— another call for history? other areas will be _ another call for history? other areas will be exploding - another call for history? other areas will be exploding with i areas will be exploding with knowledge _ areas will be exploding with knowledge and _ areas will be exploding with knowledge and there - areas will be exploding with knowledge and there will i areas will be exploding with| knowledge and there will be areas will be exploding with . knowledge and there will be a areas will be exploding with - knowledge and there will be a call for in _ knowledge and there will be a call for in the — knowledge and there will be a call for in the employment _ knowledge and there will be a call for in the employment market? i knowledge and there will be a call l for in the employment market? you might— for in the employment market? you might look— for in the employment market? you might look 40 — for in the employment market? you might look 40 years _ for in the employment market? you might look 40 years ago _ for in the employment market? you might look 40 years ago and - for in the employment market? you might look 40 years ago and if i might look 40 years ago and if someone — might look 40 years ago and if someone sat— might look 40 years ago and if someone sat there _ might look 40 years ago and if someone sat there and - might look 40 years ago and if someone sat there and said i. might look 40 years ago and if i someone sat there and said i want might look 40 years ago and if - someone sat there and said i want to look at _ someone sat there and said i want to look at robots — someone sat there and said i want to look at robots someone _ someone sat there and said i want to look at robots someone might - someone sat there and said i want to look at robots someone might have i look at robots someone might have said that _ look at robots someone might have said that seems _ look at robots someone might have said that seems silly— look at robots someone might have said that seems silly and _ look at robots someone might have said that seems silly and a - look at robots someone might have said that seems silly and a bit- look at robots someone might have said that seems silly and a bit daftl said that seems silly and a bit daft and a _ said that seems silly and a bit daft and a bit _ said that seems silly and a bit daft and a bit sci—fi _ said that seems silly and a bit daft and a bit sci—fi of— said that seems silly and a bit daft and a bit sci—fi of you _ said that seems silly and a bit daft and a bit sci—fi of you to— said that seems silly and a bit daft and a bit sci—fi of you to be - and a bit sci—fi of you to be obsessed _ and a bit sci—fi of you to be obsessed with— and a bit sci—fi of you to be obsessed with robots - and a bit sci—fi of you to be obsessed with robots and i and a bit sci—fi of you to be i obsessed with robots and now and a bit sci—fi of you to be - obsessed with robots and now that's something _ obsessed with robots and now that's something that _ obsessed with robots and now that's something that is _ obsessed with robots and now that's something that is incredibly- obsessed with robots and now that's something that is incredibly useful. something that is incredibly useful and deemed — something that is incredibly useful and deemed as _ something that is incredibly useful and deemed as a _ something that is incredibly useful and deemed as a high—quality- something that is incredibly useful| and deemed as a high—quality area something that is incredibly useful. and deemed as a high—quality area of knowledge _ and deemed as a high—quality area of knowledge when _ and deemed as a high—quality area of knowledge. when you _ and deemed as a high—quality area of knowledge. when you are _ and deemed as a high—quality area of knowledge. when you are sitting i knowledge. when you are sitting there _ knowledge. when you are sitting there and — knowledge. when you are sitting there and saying, _ knowledge. when you are sitting there and saying, well, - knowledge. when you are sitting there and saying, well, the i knowledge. when you are sitting i there and saying, well, the creative arts are _ there and saying, well, the creative arts are the — there and saying, well, the creative arts are the areas _ there and saying, well, the creative arts are the areas that _ there and saying, well, the creative arts are the areas that are - there and saying, well, the creative arts are the areas that are kind i there and saying, well, the creative arts are the areas that are kind of. arts are the areas that are kind of futile, _ arts are the areas that are kind of futile, or— arts are the areas that are kind of futile, or philosophy _ arts are the areas that are kind of futile, or philosophy or— arts are the areas that are kind of futile, or philosophy or this, i arts are the areas that are kind of futile, or philosophy or this, that| futile, or philosophy or this, that the other, — futile, or philosophy or this, that the other, these _ futile, or philosophy or this, that the other, these are _ futile, or philosophy or this, that the other, these are areas - futile, or philosophy or this, that the other, these are areas that l futile, or philosophy or this, that l the other, these are areas that can into other— the other, these are areas that can into other areas _ the other, these are areas that can into other areas like _ the other, these are areas that can into other areas like policy, - the other, these are areas that can into other areas like policy, like i into other areas like policy, like the care — into other areas like policy, like the care sector, _ into other areas like policy, like the care sector, the _ into other areas like policy, like the care sector, the mental- into other areas like policy, like i the care sector, the mental health sector, _ the care sector, the mental health sector, the — the care sector, the mental health sector, the creative _ the care sector, the mental health sector, the creative arts _ the care sector, the mental health sector, the creative arts could i sector, the creative arts could really — sector, the creative arts could really put _ sector, the creative arts could really put a _ sector, the creative arts could really put a big _ sector, the creative arts could really put a big injection - sector, the creative arts could really put a big injection into. sector, the creative arts could i really put a big injection into the mental— really put a big injection into the mental health— really put a big injection into the mental health and _ really put a big injection into the mental health and well—being i really put a big injection into the i mental health and well—being sector and public— mental health and well—being sector and public health. _

mental health and well—being sector and public health. but _ mental health and well—being sector and public health. but that - mental health and well—being sector and public health. but that is- mental health and well—being sector and public health. but that is not. and public health. but that is not being _ and public health. but that is not being explored _ and public health. but that is not being explored at _ and public health. but that is not being explored at the _ and public health. but that is not being explored at the moment, i and public health. but that is not. being explored at the moment, or seen _ being explored at the moment, or seen as— being explored at the moment, or seen as valuable _ being explored at the moment, or seen as valuable by— being explored at the moment, or seen as valuable by a _ being explored at the moment, or seen as valuable by a governmentj seen as valuable by a government that are _ seen as valuable by a government that are concerned _ seen as valuable by a government that are concerned more - seen as valuable by a government that are concerned more by- seen as valuable by a government that are concerned more by the i that are concerned more by the business — that are concerned more by the business area _ that are concerned more by the business area and _ that are concerned more by the business area and the - that are concerned more by the business area and the finance l that are concerned more by the i business area and the finance area and if— business area and the finance area and if you — business area and the finance area and if you have _ business area and the finance area and if you have everyone - business area and the finance area. and if you have everyone graduating from there — and if you have everyone graduating from there you _ and if you have everyone graduating from there you will _ and if you have everyone graduating from there you will have _ and if you have everyone graduating from there you will have a _ and if you have everyone graduatingj from there you will have a saturated 'ob from there you will have a saturated job market — from there you will have a saturated job market and _ from there you will have a saturated job market and then _ from there you will have a saturated job market and then people - from there you will have a saturated job market and then people won't i from there you will have a saturatedl job market and then people won't be able to— job market and then people won't be able to get— job market and then people won't be able to get employed _ job market and then people won't be able to get employed because - job market and then people won't be able to get employed because therel able to get employed because there will be _ able to get employed because there will be too _ able to get employed because there will be too many. _ able to get employed because there will be too many. find _ able to get employed because there will be too many.— able to get employed because there will be too many. and people saying what is wrong _ will be too many. and people saying what is wrong with _ will be too many. and people saying what is wrong with doing _ will be too many. and people saying what is wrong with doing medicine i what is wrong with doing medicine and then ending up as an itinerant theatre director getting three months a year because you are expanding the horizons of other people's dreams, aren't you? tom in norwich, by the way, vicky, i have to say social change sounds right on the money. tom in norwich, what do you want to say? morning.— the money. tom in norwich, what do you want to say? morning. morning. i am a recent— you want to say? morning. morning. i am a recent graduate, _ you want to say? morning. morning. i am a recent graduate, i— you want to say? morning. morning. i am a recent graduate, i only - am a recent graduate, i only graduated in 2021 with a masters in history. this is a topic that is quite close to my heart. i think the degree itself is really useful, teaches you a lot of life skills and

something i thoroughly enjoyed, i enjoyed the data analytics of my role and the research also i had a really high quality education at the university that i went to.— university that i went to. critical thinkint university that i went to. critical thinking as _ university that i went to. critical thinking as well. _ university that i went to. critical thinking as well. yes. _ university that i went to. critical thinking as well. yes. i - university that i went to. critical thinking as well. yes. i certainlyj thinking as well. yes. i certainly learned a _ thinking as well. yes. i certainly learned a lot _ thinking as well. yes. i certainly learned a lot through _ thinking as well. yes. i certainly learned a lot through all - thinking as well. yes. i certainly learned a lot through all of i thinking as well. yes. i certainly| learned a lot through all of that. but i think you are souled a bit of a pipe dream. certainly when i graduated with a first—class degree, you know, you assume it's going to be an easy world to get into, i looked at getting into finance and insurance. you'rejust looked at getting into finance and insurance. you're just thrown looked at getting into finance and insurance. you'rejust thrown in with everyone else, you are thrown in with that don't have a degree and when you have spent three or four years doing a degree and you are told it's going to get you a high paid job it is not necessarily the case. and i think there does need to be an element of reality thrown in in. too many people go to university assuming they are going to be getting a really high paid job and unfortunately the reality is that

doesn't happen, or it isn't as easy as that. ., . , doesn't happen, or it isn't as easy as that. ., ., , ,, ., ,, doesn't happen, or it isn't as easy as that. ., . , ,, ., ,, ., as that. you are with rishi sunak on this? he says— as that. you are with rishi sunak on this? he says too _ as that. you are with rishi sunak on this? he says too many _ as that. you are with rishi sunak on this? he says too many young i as that. you are with rishi sunak on i this? he says too many young people are being sold a false dream. that seems to be what you are saying here. to seems to be what you are saying here. ., ., , ., ., seems to be what you are saying here. ., . , ., ., ,, here. to a degree, yeah, i do think that's the case. _ here. to a degree, yeah, i do think that's the case. looking _ here. to a degree, yeah, i do think that's the case. looking at - here. to a degree, yeah, i do think that's the case. looking at the i here. to a degree, yeah, i do think that's the case. looking at the jobl that's the case. looking at the job i was most recently in, i was in a job where i had peers who came from the apprenticeship scheme, i had peers that came directly from a—levels, and i sat there questioning what was the point in having my degree if i'm just going to sit here with earning the same salary as these other people and ultimately i was just paying back from education paying back my student loan and i was sat there doing the samejob student loan and i was sat there doing the same job as everyone else. so i think there does need to be an element of reality and i think some young people these days see university as the only option. what university as the only option. what would have — university as the only option. what would have borne _ university as the only option. what would have borne more _ university as the only option. what would have borne more fruit? thinking, looking back? i

would have borne more fruit? thinking, looking back? i think my detree did thinking, looking back? i think my degree did add _ thinking, looking back? i think my degree did add a _ thinking, looking back? i think my degree did add a lot, _ thinking, looking back? i think my degree did add a lot, history i thinking, looking back? i think my degree did add a lot, history is i thinking, looking back? i think my degree did add a lot, history is a l degree did add a lot, history is a very respected degree but there is a lot of emphasis on these business degrees, finance, accounting. i would say it is the degrees were ultimately the job sector look at it and say we can see what you have done, whereas my degree, i sort of have to explain myself because they probably see so many history graduates now, or arts graduates, not belittling it, because i love the degree, but they see so many of them it almost doesn't mean anything to some of these employers any more. the world ofjournalism is littered with history graduates, i've got say that. a, , with history graduates, i've got say that. , , ., ., ., that. maybe i should have a look! what university _ that. maybe i should have a look! what university were _ that. maybe i should have a look! what university were you - that. maybe i should have a look! what university were you at? i that. maybe i should have a look! what university were you at? can| that. maybe i should have a look! | what university were you at? can i ask? , , ., ., , what university were you at? can i ask? , i. ~ ., what university were you at? can i ask? , ~ . that ask? university of east anglia. that is traced ask? university of east anglia. that is graced done _ ask? university of east anglia. that is graced done a _ ask? university of east anglia. that is graced done a great _ ask? university of east anglia. that is graced done a great institution. i is graced done a great institution. james and cardiff, you are on, good morning. james and cardiff, you are on, good mornint. ,., ., james and cardiff, you are on, good mornin. _ ,., ., .,

james and cardiff, you are on, good mornint. ., ., , ., morning. good morning. -- that is a treat morning. good morning. -- that is a great institution. _ morning. good morning. -- that is a great institution. i— morning. good morning. -- that is a great institution. i agree _ morning. good morning. -- that is a great institution. i agree with - morning. good morning. -- that is a great institution. i agree with tom, l great institution. i agree with tom, in sixth— great institution. i agree with tom, in sixth form — great institution. i agree with tom, in sixth form everything is geared up in sixth form everything is geared up to— in sixth form everything is geared up to go— in sixth form everything is geared up to go to — in sixth form everything is geared up to go to university, you need to id up to go to university, you need to go to— up to go to university, you need to go to university and basically there is is no _ go to university and basically there is is no other option really for you — is is no other option really for you i— is is no other option really for you. i know— is is no other option really for you. i know there are colleges and stuff but _ you. i know there are colleges and stuff but i — you. i know there are colleges and stuff but i went to university, university of south wales, graduated in 201! _ university of south wales, graduated in 201! i_ university of south wales, graduated in 2011. i spent £9,000 a year for what _ in 2011. i spent £9,000 a year for what was — in 2011. i spent £9,000 a year for what was basically a three day contact — what was basically a three day contact course and then in the second — contact course and then in the second year i paid the same and had two days— second year i paid the same and had two days and in the year one i only had one _ two days and in the year one i only had one day— two days and in the year one i only had one day contact and when you come _ had one day contact and when you come out — had one day contact and when you come out of— had one day contact and when you come out of it, like tom said, you are thrown— come out of it, like tom said, you are thrown in— come out of it, like tom said, you are thrown in with everyone else, you don't— are thrown in with everyone else, you don't necessarily get a job because — you don't necessarily get a job because you have got to degree but you are _ because you have got to degree but you are encouraged to go because it is the _ you are encouraged to go because it is the only— you are encouraged to go because it is the only thing available to you it seems— is the only thing available to you it seems from the sixth form kind of thing _ it seems from the sixth form kind of thint. �* ., ., ,., ., thing. but what about the whole broadening _ thing. but what about the whole broadening your _ thing. but what about the whole broadening your horizons? i'm i broadening your horizons? i'm thinking back to the time when the government, to give you an idea of how long i was at university —— how long ago. a lecturer said what about

the factjohn lennon has been shot? what do you think? that was a bad day. it shows you about that point in time, the government paid for it all. i was a student, i wasn't a customer, you guys are customers now. and i thought at the time this is about, you know, broadening horizons, meeting people, you know, ijoined horizons, meeting people, you know, i joined the horizons, meeting people, you know, ijoined the dramatic society and did a lot of acting and i thought this is what it is all about. and i thought i've got to go to lectures as well. that's all changed. yeah, i don't want — as well. that's all changed. yeah, i don't want to _ as well. that's all changed. yeah, i don't want to pay — as well. that's all changed. yeah, i don't want to pay now _ as well. that's all changed. yeah, i don't want to pay now thousand i don't want to pay now thousand pounds — don't want to pay now thousand pounds a — don't want to pay now thousand pounds a year to be socialising and getting _ pounds a year to be socialising and getting involved in clubs which i could _ getting involved in clubs which i could do— getting involved in clubs which i could do outside of the university. that was— could do outside of the university. that was it — could do outside of the university. that was it for me more than anything _ that was it for me more than anything i_ that was it for me more than anything. i kinda felt like i wasn't getting. — anything. i kinda felt like i wasn't getting, you go to lectures and just read off— getting, you go to lectures and just read off slides you could up from home _ read off slides you could up from home. there is no real point in going _ home. there is no real point in going to — home. there is no real point in going to the lectures either. for me

personally— going to the lectures either. for me personally i — going to the lectures either. for me personally i think it is a rip—off. ithink— personally i think it is a rip—off. i think it — personally i think it is a rip—off. i think it does need a great overhaul— i think it does need a great overhaul and a change, to be honest. interesting _ overhaul and a change, to be honest. interesting. the whole philosophy of it has changed over the last 30 years. sonia blandford, professor of social mobility, what you think of this and what you have heard from our callers?— our callers? good morning. it of a mixed response _ our callers? good morning. it of a mixed response this _ our callers? good morning. it of a mixed response this morning. i our callers? good morning. it of a i mixed response this morning. from my point of view the notion that university degrees is a rip—off is actually completely wrong. you have widening participation, you have an increase in the aspiration of those people who would never have thought, not just about people who would never have thought, notjust about going on those courses, but actually looking at the jobs that they could have entered. the employment market. i think that the solution is not to put a cap, but actually greater collaboration between the employers and the university sector. so what is it the

employers want? if this is an argument for the economy, what is it the employers actually want? do they want history degrees _ the employers actually want? do they want history degrees or _ the employers actually want? do they want history degrees or do _ the employers actually want? do they want history degrees or do they i the employers actually want? do they want history degrees or do they want| want history degrees or do they want physics degrees? mi want history degrees or do they want physics degrees?— want history degrees or do they want physics degrees? all degrees because detrees physics degrees? all degrees because degrees provide _ physics degrees? all degrees because degrees provide opportunities, - physics degrees? all degrees because degrees provide opportunities, as i physics degrees? all degrees because degrees provide opportunities, as wel degrees provide opportunities, as we have heard, to be analytical, they enhance literacy skills, they enhance literacy skills, they enhance communication skills will stop there is so much that the degree itself can offer. but what is it that employers, i was cite two examples. alton university, absolutely superb at working with the local employment market. really, really looking at what is needed —— bolton university. the degrees, whether in health or engineering, whatever the degrees are that bolton are offering they are in collaboration employment that is available within that area of the country. those types of discussions are what is needed. we should not be

capping. we should be enhancing opportunities. we should be giving people choice but a choice that has meaning. and that's what is being discussed today. i5 meaning. and that's what is being discussed today.— meaning. and that's what is being discussed today. is there something here that is a _ discussed today. is there something here that is a hard _ discussed today. is there something here that is a hard truth? _ discussed today. is there something here that is a hard truth? an - here that is a hard truth? an elephant in a lecture room which is the fact, some people are arguing on this, and i'm reading the texts on it. for example, bolton university doing fantastic work. but a history degree from bolton university does not in any way match up with a history degree from bristol university. 50 it actually is where you university. so it actually is where you got your degree from. is that true? ~ ., ., , true? well, unfortunately we live in a country of — true? well, unfortunately we live in a country of league _ true? well, unfortunately we live in a country of league tables - true? well, unfortunately we live in a country of league tables and - true? well, unfortunately we live in a country of league tables and a - a country of league tables and a russell group universities, oxbridge universities are always considered to be at a higher level than the redbrick universities, the 1962 universities, etc. we have to stop thinking like that. one of the ways

of stopping thinking like that is actually to have the employers look at what the universities are doing to enhance employment and enhance the training. i don't think there is a quality issue. i agree with steve, we have a huge amount of quality assurance which happens within the university sector. it is nonsensical to think that that doesn't happen. but what we do need to do is to ensure that there is some connectivity between what is happening within the university, irrespective of the course, and what is needed in that locality and also nationally. is needed in that locality and also nationall . , , ., nationally. yes. i 'ust wonder if the nationally. yes. i just wonder if the universities... _ nationally. yes. i just wonder if the universities... please, - nationally. yes. i just wonder if the universities... please, go l nationally. yes. i just wonder if l the universities... please, go on. nationally. yes. i just wonder if. the universities... please, go on. i wouldjump the universities... please, go on. i would jump in the universities... please, go on. i wouldjump in there. the universities... please, go on. i would jump in there. i think what is interesting — would jump in there. i think what is interesting about what you say is working — interesting about what you say is working with the local sector, but students — working with the local sector, but students often travel from various areas _ students often travel from various areas across the country. i think there _ areas across the country. i think there needs to be more of a national conversation about what employers

want _ conversation about what employers want the _ conversation about what employers want. the one i have employed comic applied _ want. the one i have employed comic applied for— want. the one i have employed comic applied forjobs they look at my degree — applied forjobs they look at my degree and say what experience you have? _ degree and say what experience you have? and _ degree and say what experience you have? and i'm like, well i've spent the last— have? and i'm like, well i've spent the last four — have? and i'm like, well i've spent the last four years in university. and they— the last four years in university. and they are still like, you need two years— and they are still like, you need two years of, say, journalism experience, orfouryears two years of, say, journalism experience, or four years of this. when _ experience, or four years of this. when you — experience, or four years of this. when you do a degree of law they have good — when you do a degree of law they have good exposure, they get a lot of exposure in the industry. whereas if you _ of exposure in the industry. whereas if you do— of exposure in the industry. whereas if you do a _ of exposure in the industry. whereas if you do a degree like mine i have learned _ if you do a degree like mine i have learned the — if you do a degree like mine i have learned the loss of skills and i don't — learned the loss of skills and i don't think until you have done a degree _ don't think until you have done a degree you — don't think until you have done a degree you necessarily understand how nruch— degree you necessarily understand how much effort and time i've put into doing — how much effort and time i've put into doing a degree. and i think it'siust — into doing a degree. and i think it'siust a — into doing a degree. and i think it'sjust a bit of into doing a degree. and i think it's just a bit of a farce to say it's just a bit of a farce to say it's all— it's just a bit of a farce to say it's all about maximising opportunities. maximising opportunities. maximising opportunities and being honest to young _ opportunities and being honest to young people and saying there are other— young people and saying there are other opportunities here. the job i'm currently in, people have come in from _ i'm currently in, people have come in from apprenticeships and come in from a _ in from apprenticeships and come in from a levels. i don't think you need _ from a levels. idon't think you need to— from a levels. i don't think you need to sell than the dream of you need _ need to sell than the dream of you need to— need to sell than the dream of you need to spend £9,000 a year to sit

behind _ need to spend £9,000 a year to sit behind a _ need to spend £9,000 a year to sit behind a lecturer. i don't think that— behind a lecturer. i don't think that is— behind a lecturer. i don't think that is being honest with our young people _ that is being honest with our young people and exploring the opportunities for them to leave school— opportunities for them to leave school and go straight into the workplace. not everyone needs to do a degree, _ workplace. not everyone needs to do a degree, not everyone needs to further— a degree, not everyone needs to further their learning in that sense, _ further their learning in that sense, not everyone wants to. we need — sense, not everyone wants to. we need to — sense, not everyone wants to. we need to he _ sense, not everyone wants to. we need to be completely honest. our young _ need to be completely honest. our young people are not stupid when it comes— young people are not stupid when it comes to _ young people are not stupid when it comes to the sort of things. but they— comes to the sort of things. but they need — comes to the sort of things. but they need the opportunities presented to them. i think that is only going — presented to them. i think that is only going to benefit things like social— only going to benefit things like social mobility if we are honest and open _ social mobility if we are honest and open with— social mobility if we are honest and open with it, rather than pushing degrees — open with it, rather than pushing degrees on everyone.— open with it, rather than pushing degrees on everyone. please, carry on. it is degrees on everyone. please, carry on- it is the key _ degrees on everyone. please, carry on. it is the key here. _ degrees on everyone. please, carry on. it is the key here. i— degrees on everyone. please, carry on. it is the key here. i wanted - degrees on everyone. please, carry on. it is the key here. i wanted to l on. it is the key here. i wanted to 'um in on. it is the key here. i wanted to jump in because _ on. it is the key here. i wanted to jump in because i'm _ on. it is the key here. i wanted to jump in because i'm on _ on. it is the key here. i wanted to jump in because i'm on a - on. it is the key here. i wanted to jump in because i'm on a degree l jump in because i'm on a degree programme but i came in as a mature student so i started my degree when i was 27. i had left school and gone into work. i went into full—time work when i was 17. then i went on

to an apprenticeship. after i completed my apprenticeship, that was in children and young people work force, i saw a pay rise of 50p per hour when i did that and then i tried to get into otherjobs, i worked as a teaching assistant and a paediatric assistant and did random jobs and then i eventually got a job at the university. and then i started doing my degree in the pandemic. i remember being that age when i was 16 at being told at school and university is the only route, it is the only route, and i will say i think there is an aspect where people are told you have to go to university in order to achieve ex, y, z. but what i will say is from being in the workforce to somebody who left school immediately it is so hard to compete against other people who do perhaps have degrees. it is very, very challenging. at are now doing my degree i'm doing it in social

change. some people may look at that and say it sounds like a nonsense rip—off degree. but as a mature person coming into this it is incredibly valuable for me. i've been at work and seen what is useful. and what i enjoy. and it is useful. and what i enjoy. and it is useful to me. i've been able to go on to a programme that i find really fascinating and interesting. and as part of my programme i get to meet employers, get the opportunity to engage with the employability service here at the university, i've been a different seminars and courses that help me understand what the industry is looking for. there is a huge injection across universities at the moment into employability services within the university structure. so although there may be a cohort of students who perhaps didn't get that opportunity unfortunately like our listeners today, they are putting more effort into it now to try and

help students engage with employers. that is something i wouldn't have got in the workplace because i would have been just going there, got in the workplace because i would have beenjust going there, doing my non—5 —— 9—5. so it is actually helping. i was in a cohort where i didn't have the opportunity to go to university at that age either. i was a young carer, i was looking after my brother, and i didn't have the opportunity. but now i do and i think this conversation massively misses out on people who perhaps didn't have the chance to go when they were 18. let didn't have the chance to go when they were 1&— didn't have the chance to go when they were 18. let me go to anne in liverool they were 18. let me go to anne in liverpool and _ they were 18. let me go to anne in liverpool and vicky _ they were 18. let me go to anne in liverpool and vicky in _ they were 18. let me go to anne in liverpool and vicky in skipton. - they were 18. let me go to anne in | liverpool and vicky in skipton. good morning, anne in liverpool and vicky in skipton. let's go to liverpool. anne, how are you this morning? i’m anne, how are you this morning? i'm nood, anne, how are you this morning? i�*m good, thank you, nikki. anne, how are you this morning? i'm good, thank you, nikki. there - anne, how are you this morning? i'm good, thank you, nikki. there is - good, thank you, nikki. there is something _ good, thank you, nikki. there is something in — good, thank you, nikki. there is something in me _ good, thank you, nikki. there is something in me that _ good, thank you, nikki. there is something in me that says - good, thank you, nikki. there is

something in me that says when good, thank you, nikki. there is - something in me that says when young people are being sold a full stream, is there such a thing as a full stream, i'm thinking? you cannot retrofit a dream, to something you want to happen one day, may be at will or may it won't. but dreams are good for the soul. it is a very clinical thing to say is don't have dreams, isn't it? i'mjust meandering, say what you want to say. today we are heading to cardiff university because tomorrow or daughter graduates with a bachelors degree in optometry. she daughter graduates with a bachelors degree in optometry.— degree in optometry. she could not have not degree in optometry. she could not have got that _ degree in optometry. she could not have got that qualification - degree in optometry. she could not have got that qualification without i have got that qualification without her degree. it is a vocational degree. and she starts work in september. hopefully got a great career ahead of her and none of that would have been possible without her degree. would have been possible without her decree. ., ., i. would have been possible without her decree. ., ., y., ., ., degree. how do you feel about that? i feel very proud _ degree. how do you feel about that? i feel very proud today _ degree. how do you feel about that? i feel very proud today and _

degree. how do you feel about that? i feel very proud today and tomorrow when she puts on the cap and gown and she has worked very hard. can i say to the class of 23, they started their degree at the height of the pandemic, but was isolation, online tuition, lock down. i take my hat off to all of the students of 2023. they start at the university journey very differently to most people. absolutely. i am with you, i know exactly what you are talking about. it is something which resonates in my family. i it is something which resonates in m famil . . ., , it is something which resonates in m famil. . ., , ., it is something which resonates in m famil. . . , ., ., my family. i admire any of them who are net my family. i admire any of them who are get through. _ my family. i admire any of them who are get through, congratulations - my family. i admire any of them who are get through, congratulations to l are get through, congratulations to any graduate this year.— any graduate this year. confident about the future _ any graduate this year. confident about the future for _ any graduate this year. confident about the future for her? - any graduate this year. confident. about the future for her? personally i think she will — about the future for her? personally i think she will do _ about the future for her? personally i think she will do 0k, _ about the future for her? personally i think she will do 0k, she - about the future for her? personally i think she will do 0k, she is - i think she will do ok, she is entering a profession that is needed and will always be needed. i take a breath and think she will be ok. you know, we can only hope for the best

for all of our children. know, we can only hope for the best forall of our children. i’m know, we can only hope for the best for all of our children.— for all of our children. i'm sorry, i may have _ for all of our children. i'm sorry, i may have missed _ for all of our children. i'm sorry, i may have missed this - for all of our children. i'm sorry, i may have missed this but - for all of our children. i'm sorry, i may have missed this but did l for all of our children. i'm sorry, i i may have missed this but did you mention a profession she's going into? �* ., , mention a profession she's going into? ~ ., , mention a profession she's going into? �* ., , ,, mention a profession she's going into? ~ ., , ,, into? apologies if you did. she has aualified into? apologies if you did. she has qualified as — into? apologies if you did. she has qualified as an _ into? apologies if you did. she has qualified as an optician. _ into? apologies if you did. she has qualified as an optician. well, - qualified as an optician. well, surely will _ qualified as an optician. well, surely will always _ qualified as an optician. well, surely will always need - qualified as an optician. well, - surely will always need opticians? well, mind you, as i say that, i think, artificial intelligence, movie? movie? that was not a joke! brilliant stuff! i bet there will be a tear in your a! tomorrow! brilliant stuff! i bet there will be a tear in your ai tomorrow! there were tears _ a tear in your ai tomorrow! there were tears when _ a tear in your ai tomorrow! there were tears when i _ a tear in your ai tomorrow! there were tears when i dropped - a tear in your ai tomorrow! there were tears when i dropped her. a tear in your ai tomorrow! there | were tears when i dropped her off all those years ago and drove home 200 miles. very, very proud. what all those years ago and drove home 200 miles. very, very proud. what is her name? — 200 miles. very, very proud. what is her name? chris. _ 200 miles. very, very proud. what is her name? chris. grace, _ her name? chris. grace, congratulations, - her name? chris. grace, j congratulations, brilliant her name? chris. grace, - congratulations, brilliant and all of your cohorts. they can skipton coming up. what do you think, is

your degree or rip—off? more after the news and sport at 9:32am. here is the news with bethan holmes. thank you. rishi sunak is to announce tighter controls on universities in england that offer what he calls "poor quality" degrees. under the plan, universities will be forced to limit the number of students on courses with a high drop out rate as well as those that often fail to lead to professionaljobs. labour says the move would "put up fresh barriers to opportunity". results of a clinical trial of a new dementia drug will be published this afternoon at a conference in the netherlands. back in may the drug donanemab was reported to slow the pace of alzheimer's by about a third

in patients in the early stages of the disease. two people have died during what's been called an "emergency" on the bridge linking the annexed crimean peninsula to southern russia. there are unconfirmed reports of explosions. a source in ukraine's security service has told the bbc people across parts of southern europe are being warned to prepare for one of the most intense heatwaves on record this week. over the coming days temperatures of 48 degrees have been forecast in sicily and sardinia. those regular news headlines and here is john those regular news headlines and here isjohn bennett with the spirit. morning thank you. the new wimbledon men's champion carlos alcaraz says his victory over novak djokovic in the final is "great for the new generation" in tennis. djokovic admits the loss to carlos alcaraz was a "tough one to swallow" but he's vowed to "move on". meanwhile, the women's champion, marketa vondrousova, has entered the wta top ten for the first time in her career today. england cricket captain heather knight says this summer's ashes has been the "best series ever in women's cricket history". australia retained the urn yesterday after a narrow three—run victory in the second odi.

in football, lionel messi has been officially presented to inter miami fans at the club's stadium. and manchester united are close to finalising the deal to bring inter goalkeeper andre onana to old trafford. and golf�*s world number three rory mcilroy says "the omens are there" as he looks to take his title—winning form at the scottish open over the weekend into open championship week. his last major in 2014 directly followed a win at the world golf championships.

talking about universities and stuff the prime minister has said and the education secretary. rishi sunak say young people are being sold a false dream, but both degrees. at ten o'clock today. shoplifting, because people have been talking about it, i will tell you people have said. the boss ofjohn lewis, was on the conspirator showed yesterday. sharon white warned criminals have a licence to shoplift. it rise in cases driven by the cost of living crisis. she says it's a crisis hiding in plain sight. she said

there has been a 26% increase in crime, i know what you are thinking, you are thinking about the hard times. hence the crimes. most recent figures from the british retail consortium show there were 8 million incidents of customer theft a year, incidents of customer theft a year, incidents which cause the shops £953 million. we want to hear from incidents which cause the shops £953 million. we want to hearfrom people this morning on both sides of the cash desk. have you experienced it, have you had to deal with it, have you witnessed it? as they say, no names, anonymity, but we need to get to the heart of this and if you have, then why and if you work in a shop, have things got worse? from 10am today, shoplifting, no excuse?

what do we actually mean by success? and the institutions, they need the cash. with this disadvantage the already disadvantaged, at least not using that dreadful face mickey mouse degrees any more, pejorative phrase and it does not really mean anything. vicky and skipton, david northumberland, victoria in east london, laura in south london, or all there? good morning. vicky, you go first. yet we are on my list before the news and sport, what would you like to say? basically, our background, _ would you like to say? basically, our background, make _ would you like to say? basically, our background, make myself. would you like to say? basically, our background, make myself i l would you like to say? basically, - our background, make myself i went down the apprenticeship wrote and my

partner went to university. what i will say is that if you were to ask my partner what you regret going to university he would say absolutely not, he had the best time of his life. he got a degree in international relations. does that go with what he doing today? absolutely not, no relevance to what he does today but he his time. personally ijust he does today but he his time. personally i just qualified he does today but he his time. personally ijust qualified as a chartered accountant in public finance. which has seen my career goal and an upper trajectory which is fantastic. it was a lot of hard work, i was working full time while doing the qualification and having a family so it's not an easy task. but the one thing that worries me today is that i have got two children and i was to ask them, i will make them do their a—levels but when they come

to the end of their a—levels and they say mum, what should i do? i would leave it up to them but my worry is the cost of university is just spiralling. my partner, he is in his early 40s and he just finished paying his student loan! that was before, that cost was before the £9,000 fees that they have to die. by the time my children are looking to go to university that could have increased even more. and i am looking at the prospects of going will they ever be able to afford a house? it is technically debt against their name. the cost of having a really good time at university and being a well—rounded individual, it's really important for people to learn and grow up and be educated. but is it a cause that is worth it when you could do an apprenticeship and get the same level of qualification? i

apprenticeship and get the same level of qualification?— level of qualification? i was very much roundabout _ level of qualification? i was very much roundabout university, - level of qualification? i was very much roundabout university, i. level of qualification? i was very l much roundabout university, i was ratherjagged for much roundabout university, i was rather jagged for lots much roundabout university, i was ratherjagged for lots of reasons but if your partner works into certain jobs and has a degree but if your partner works into certainjobs and has a degree in international relations, he can think critically about sino japanese relations in the modern era, economic consequences thereof, a lot of people will be incredibly impressed by that and will want to know more because he can thank... you be quite surprised. when he finished his degree he did a conversion course in teaching so became a high school teacher. there was jobs at the time he was applying for when he finished university. albeit some years ago! they said you do not have the experience we want but you do not have any work experience and he found it hard so he did a conversion course and he became a teacher but that's another

conversation... he recently left the profession and he wants to do something else. he is really struggling to find what he wants to do but are struggling to find an employer that would be keen to take him on, even at entry level. he does not have relevant experience, or he doesn't have the right qualifications.- doesn't have the right aualifications. . , , qualifications. that is interesting. david northumberland _ qualifications. that is interesting. david northumberland coming - qualifications. that is interesting. | david northumberland coming up, qualifications. that is interesting. - david northumberland coming up, the tory and east london, please respond, university lecturer. a number of things. —— victoria. respond, university lecturer. a number of things. -- victoria. vicky is talkin: number of things. -- victoria. vicky is talking so — number of things. -- victoria. vicky is talking so much _ number of things. -- victoria. vicky is talking so much sense. _ number of things. -- victoria. vicky is talking so much sense. i - number of things. -- victoria. vicky is talking so much sense. i want - number of things. —— victoria. vicky is talking so much sense. i want to say, _ is talking so much sense. i want to say, your— is talking so much sense. i want to say, your partner, i am sure with his degree — say, your partner, i am sure with his degree he can think critically and scandal vicky with your accountancy apprenticeship. absolutely! i was sticking up for him! i absolutely! i was sticking up for him! ~' ., ., ,

absolutely! i was sticking up for him! ~ ., ., , . him! i know! i am being cheeky. s-reakin him! i know! i am being cheeky. speaking to _ him! i know! i am being cheeky. speaking to your _ him! i know! i am being cheeky. speaking to your researcher, - him! i know! i am being cheeky. speaking to your researcher, i i him! i know! i am being cheeky. i speaking to your researcher, i fired off my _ speaking to your researcher, i fired off my usual random text and she called _ off my usual random text and she called me — off my usual random text and she called me up and i said i do not know— called me up and i said i do not know if— called me up and i said i do not know if i— called me up and i said i do not know if i can trust myself to speak to you _ know if i can trust myself to speak to you about this because there is so much _ to you about this because there is so much that i want to say about it. fire away, — so much that i want to say about it. fire away, give us the headlines, the big stuff. what i am going to do is give you two minutes from now and then i'm going to interrupt you. go! firstl , then i'm going to interrupt you. go! firstly. rishi _ then i'm going to interrupt you. go! firstly, rishi sunak, there are people — firstly, rishi sunak, there are people doing very, very good degrees, _ people doing very, very good degrees, radiographers, nurses and teachers— degrees, radiographers, nurses and teachers that your government refuses — teachers that your government refuses to pay a living wage to so you get _ refuses to pay a living wage to so you get your worthwhile degree and do not _ you get your worthwhile degree and do not get _ you get your worthwhile degree and do not get a decent well—paid job. let's _ do not get a decent well—paid job. let's park— do not get a decent well—paid job. let's park that one. my problem with this is— let's park that one. my problem with this is a _ let's park that one. my problem with this is a rush — let's park that one. my problem with this is a rush for everyone to go to university. — this is a rush for everyone to go to university. i— this is a rush for everyone to go to university, i have worked in universities and further education colleges — universities and further education colleges i— universities and further education colleges. i have always said if i had kids. — colleges. i have always said if i had kids, unless they wanted to be a

historian _ had kids, unless they wanted to be a historian or— had kids, unless they wanted to be a historian or a — had kids, unless they wanted to be a historian or a lawyer or doctor or something — historian or a lawyer or doctor or something that needs a degree, i would _ something that needs a degree, i would not — something that needs a degree, i would not let them go to university. they could — would not let them go to university. they could wipe tables and look after _ they could wipe tables and look after children and be ski instructors or whatever it is until they— instructors or whatever it is until they were — instructors or whatever it is until they were at least 26 because the generation now going into university in scotland — generation now going into university in scotland at 17, england at 18, they— in scotland at 17, england at 18, they are — in scotland at 17, england at 18, they are going to be living in suburban _ they are going to be living in suburban hundred and ten, working until they're 80. heaven forbid there _ until they're 80. heaven forbid there should be pension provision for them — there should be pension provision for them at the end of that because there _ for them at the end of that because there will— for them at the end of that because there will not be. there will have four or _ there will not be. there will have four or five — there will not be. there will have four or five different careers, they do not _ four or five different careers, they do not need to choose one now. they might _ do not need to choose one now. they might be _ do not need to choose one now. they might be driving the ban, they love it, it might be driving the ban, they love it. it gives— might be driving the ban, they love it, it gives them freedom, scheduling for their families, they do not _ scheduling for their families, they do not need a degree. they might drive _ do not need a degree. they might drive a _ do not need a degree. they might drive a van — do not need a degree. they might drive a van for five years ago flipping _ drive a van for five years ago flipping heck, i need to my degree. mature _ flipping heck, i need to my degree. mature students are driven with a particular— mature students are driven with a particular aim and knowing why they are better, — particular aim and knowing why they

are better, we'll get a good degree and will— are better, we'll get a good degree and will use their degree. children are shoved — and will use their degree. children are shoved into higher education because — are shoved into higher education because everyone thinks that's what you ought— because everyone thinks that's what you ought to do very often do coursesm _ you ought to do very often do coursesm i_ you ought to do very often do courses... i know so many that come past me. _ courses... i know so many that come past me, young people have gone to a very expensive degree, and ended up 'ust very expensive degree, and ended up just in— very expensive degree, and ended up just in retail— very expensive degree, and ended up just in retail management or whatever else it is. nothing to do with their— whatever else it is. nothing to do with their degree and does not even need the _ with their degree and does not even need the skills.— need the skills. your time is up but ou are need the skills. your time is up but you are so — need the skills. your time is up but you are so good. — need the skills. your time is up but you are so good. i— need the skills. your time is up but you are so good, i am _ need the skills. your time is up but you are so good, i am going - need the skills. your time is up but you are so good, i am going to - you are so good, i am going to give you are so good, i am going to give you another minute! go on! the thing that bothered — you another minute! go on! the thing that bothered me _ you another minute! go on! the thing that bothered me up _ you another minute! go on! the thing that bothered me up was _ you another minute! go on! the thing that bothered me up was everyone i that bothered me up was everyone saying _ that bothered me up was everyone saying there is no quality control in universities and that in further education — in universities and that in further education colleges, that was it, i was at _ education colleges, that was it, i was at the — education colleges, that was it, i was at the end of my tether. i have worked _ was at the end of my tether. i have worked in _ was at the end of my tether. i have worked in further education for six years. _ worked in further education for six years, quality is not the first thing — years, quality is not the first thing on _ years, quality is not the first thing on the agenda, i promise you.

the teachers are treated like overheads and everything is renting a spreadsheet, the accountant, the business _ a spreadsheet, the accountant, the business development model. we are at the _ business development model. we are at the behest of the qualification providers, all the examining boards. the less— providers, all the examining boards. the less people that get a say on what _ the less people that get a say on what should and should not be done in a classroom and get to contribute to what _ in a classroom and get to contribute to what their students leave the room _ to what their students leave the room with — to what their students leave the room with the teachers. that to what their students leave the room with the teachers.- to what their students leave the room with the teachers. that is it, that is it, you _ room with the teachers. that is it, that is it, you have _ room with the teachers. that is it, that is it, you have said _ room with the teachers. that is it, that is it, you have said loads - room with the teachers. that is it, that is it, you have said loads and | that is it, you have said loads and it's all been so interesting. i would say the government would make the case more than 1 would say the government would make the case more than1 million public sector workers including teachers, police and doctors have been offered pay rises between 5—7%. it is myjob to tell... wait, wait! you have three minutes! you know! i to tell... wait, wait! you have three minutes! you know! i am so sor . three minutes! you know! i am so sorry- no. — three minutes! you know! i am so sorry- no. it— three minutes! you know! i am so sorry- no. it is— three minutes! you know! i am so sorry. no, it is ok. _ three minutes! you know! i am so

sorry. no, it is ok. laura, - three minutes! you know! i am so sorry. no, it is ok. laura, in- three minutes! you know! i am so| sorry. no, it is ok. laura, in south london, sorry. no, it is ok. laura, in south london. you— sorry. no, it is ok. laura, in south london. you are — sorry. no, it is ok. laura, in south london, you are on. _ sorry. no, it is ok. laura, in south london, you are on. david, - sorry. no, it is ok. laura, in south london, you are on. david, i- sorry. no, it is ok. laura, in south london, you are on. david, i am i sorry. no, it is ok. laura, in south| london, you are on. david, i am so sorry, i will be with you in a minute, but laura. i sorry, i will be with you in a minute, but laura.- sorry, i will be with you in a minute, but laura. i have a slightly different stance, _ minute, but laura. i have a slightly different stance, i _ minute, but laura. i have a slightly different stance, i did _ minute, but laura. i have a slightly different stance, i did not - minute, but laura. i have a slightly different stance, i did not go - minute, but laura. i have a slightly different stance, i did not go to - different stance, i did not go to university, i could have done but it was a cost issue for me. if i can be quite bold was a cost issue for me. if i can be quite hold to say, i think a degree, unless you are going to be the degree qualifies you for something specific like law or medicine, i think can i say a degree is a very expensive way to prove your intelligence!— expensive way to prove your intelligence! expensive way to prove your intelliaence! , , ., ., intelligence! this is an exocet in a conversation _ intelligence! this is an exocet in a conversation which _ intelligence! this is an exocet in a conversation which is _ intelligence! this is an exocet in a conversation which is fine - intelligence! this is an exocet in a conversation which is fine by - intelligence! this is an exocet in a conversation which is fine by me l intelligence! this is an exocet in a i conversation which is fine by me but carry on! i'm sorry! ida! conversation which is fine by me but carry on! i'm sorry!— carry on! i'm sorry! no! at the beginning _ carry on! i'm sorry! no! at the beginning of— carry on! i'm sorry! no! at the beginning of my _ carry on! i'm sorry! no! at the beginning of my career - carry on! i'm sorry! no! at the beginning of my career i - carry on! i'm sorry! no! at the i beginning of my career i worked carry on! i'm sorry! no! at the - beginning of my career i worked in call centres, admin assistant roles, things that did not have a huge amount of direction and i did not have a degree and i found that

frustrating. proving myself to people, bringing his full, adding something to the team that they did not already have, so i could work my way up that way. i went to a grammar school, huge amount of pressure to get a degree and a message that if you do not get a degree you are a loser in life and you are not going to amount to anything. a lot of my friends said the same thing. but actually, a lot of my friends who did not go to university have ended up did not go to university have ended up on higher salaries byjust sort of going through a different route and i think having so many people with a degree now, it does not necessarily give you a competitive edge. ifound so many people happy degree people assume that i have fun and i have never lied about that but people in my career, they will say, people in my career, they will say, people i work with will say things

like, rememberwhen people i work with will say things like, remember when you are a student at this and that and i have to say, i did not actually go to university. i am to say, i did not actually go to university. iam in to say, i did not actually go to university. i am in a good job with a good salary and i was able to buy my own flat when i was in my 20s. which i would not have been able to do if i had university debt. which i would not have been able to do if! had university debt.— do if! had university debt. while, these are great _ do if! had university debt. while, these are great points. _ do if! had university debt. while, these are great points. david - do if! had university debt. while, these are great points. david in i these are great points. david in northumberland. your point,, the direct line between what you do at university and what you do later is something i need to reflect on. a lot of people are saying by text. david, welcome and please carry on. i am a former teacher, i talked for about— i am a former teacher, i talked for about 40 — i am a former teacher, i talked for about 40 years in high schools and at the _ about 40 years in high schools and at the moment i am a upa coach and i deal with— at the moment i am a upa coach and i deal with young people. over the years. _ deal with young people. over the years. a — deal with young people. over the years, a lot of students in sixth form _ years, a lot of students in sixth form going _ years, a lot of students in sixth form going to university, they return— form going to university, they return back and explain what they were _

return back and explain what they were doing and they were very proud of what _ were doing and they were very proud of what they were doing and obviously keen to hear what they said and — obviously keen to hear what they said and i— obviously keen to hear what they said and i agree with much of what the other— said and i agree with much of what the other colours have said. it does broaden— the other colours have said. it does broaden your environment. broaden your horizons. yes, you can get a better— your horizons. yes, you can get a betteriob — your horizons. yes, you can get a betterjob that might thing is the quality— betterjob that might thing is the quality of what is happening in universities. these young people are coming _ universities. these young people are coming back and telling me how many lectures _ coming back and telling me how many lectures they are getting and not getting — lectures they are getting and not urettin. , . lectures they are getting and not urettin. ,~ lectures they are getting and not urettin. ,, ., getting. they are paying for it, exactl . getting. they are paying for it, exactly. three _ getting. they are paying for it, exactly. three or _ getting. they are paying for it, exactly. three or four - getting. they are paying for it, exactly. three or four hours i getting. they are paying for it, exactly. three or four hours a l exactly. three or four hours a week?! one _ exactly. three or four hours a week?! one of— exactly. three or four hours a week?! one of my _ exactly. three or four hours a week?! one of my students l exactly. three or four hours a i week?! one of my students has exactly. three or four hours a - week?! one of my students has gone to study— week?! one of my students has gone to study medicine in glasgow and she is in an— to study medicine in glasgow and she is in an hour— to study medicine in glasgow and she is in an hour after hour after hour studying, — is in an hour after hour after hour studying, having lectures, because ofthe _ studying, having lectures, because of the nature of her course. i know people _ of the nature of her course. i know people who — of the nature of her course. i know people who have done engineering, same _ people who have done engineering, same thing, they are in day in and out, _ same thing, they are in day in and out, doing— same thing, they are in day in and out, doing stuff. at other times, to

be quite _ out, doing stuff. at other times, to be quite honest, it is a rip off, i agree _ be quite honest, it is a rip off, i agree with _ be quite honest, it is a rip off, i agree with one of your earlier callers — agree with one of your earlier callers. these universities are taking — callers. these universities are taking money for nothing. i also agree _ taking money for nothing. i also agree with, how can i put it...? to give _ agree with, how can i put it...? to give everybody an opportunity to expand _ give everybody an opportunity to expand on their lives, to go further, _ expand on their lives, to go further, be more educated, that is fantastic — further, be more educated, that is fantastic. one of my daughters went through— fantastic. one of my daughters went through business, business, business to university, the other has gone to university. — to university, the other has gone to university, here, there and ever so her degree — university, here, there and ever so her degree did not necessarily have anything _ her degree did not necessarily have anything to do with what she does now. _ anything to do with what she does now. she — anything to do with what she does now, she has had to change us. giving _ now, she has had to change us. giving people the opportunity to go to university but universities need to university but universities need to sort— to university but universities need to sort it — to university but universities need to sort it out, it is a rip off how much _ to sort it out, it is a rip off how much money they charge and how much they are _ much money they charge and how much they are giving out. . much money they charge and how much they are giving out-— they are giving out. . and again... i am not doubting _ they are giving out. . and again... i am not doubting me, _ they are giving out. . and again... i am not doubting me, i _ they are giving out. . and again... i am not doubting me, i hear- they are giving out. . and again... i am not doubting me, i hear this| iam not doubting me, i hearthis complaint. i hearthis

iam not doubting me, i hearthis complaint. i hear this complaint. exacerbated by the pandemic, wasn't it? , , ., , ., exacerbated by the pandemic, wasn't it? , , ., ., , it? yes, but it was going on... this is not in the _ it? yes, but it was going on... this is not in the last _ it? yes, but it was going on. .. this is not in the last year— it? yes, but it was going on... this is not in the last year or _ it? yes, but it was going on... this is not in the last year or two. - it? yes, but it was going on... thisj is not in the last year or two. when i heard _ is not in the last year or two. when i heard this — is not in the last year or two. when i heard this before. before covid—19. these young people go back. _ covid—19. these young people go back. they— covid—19. these young people go back, they come and chat to me, i am staying _ back, they come and chat to me, i am staying in— back, they come and chat to me, i am staying in contact with university students — staying in contact with university students at the moment, how hot they are working. _ students at the moment, how hot they are working, not working, the lectures — are working, not working, the lectures they get, they do not get. there _ lectures they get, they do not get. there is— lectures they get, they do not get. there is no— lectures they get, they do not get. there is no control, i don't care what _ there is no control, i don't care what some _ there is no control, i don't care what some of these people at university are saying, there is no control— university are saying, there is no control about what they are doing, no quality — control about what they are doing, no quality and some of these universities. i'm sorry, that is wrong. — universities. i'm sorry, that is wrong. no— universities. i'm sorry, that is wrong. no quality and some of the courses— wrong. no quality and some of the courses in— wrong. no quality and some of the courses in some of the universities. david. _ courses in some of the universities. david. thank— courses in some of the universities. david, thank you for this. i am going to put that in just a moment to a university lecturer at victoria and albert love her responsiveness

and albert love her responsiveness and i hope she is there. but first, chris in gloucester. a copper, 40 years old. how are things with you? not too bad at all, are you ok? i am fine, not too bad at all, are you ok? i am fine. thank — not too bad at all, are you ok? i am fine, thank you. _ not too bad at all, are you ok? i am fine, thank you. what _ not too bad at all, are you ok? i am fine, thank you. what do _ not too bad at all, are you ok? i —n fine, thank you. what do you reckon about uni? for fine, thank you. what do you reckon about uni? ., , ., , about uni? for me personally, the reason i texted _ about uni? for me personally, the reason i texted in, _ about uni? for me personally, the reason i texted in, i— about uni? for me personally, the reason i texted in, i am _ about uni? for me personally, the reason i texted in, i am 40 - about uni? for me personally, the reason i texted in, i am 40 years | reason i texted in, i am 40 years old. _ reason i texted in, i am 40 years old. went— reason i texted in, i am 40 years old. went to _ reason i texted in, i am 40 years old, went to university, still have about _ old, went to university, still have about £12,000 worth of debt paying off, about £12,000 worth of debt paying off. 150 _ about £12,000 worth of debt paying off, 150 odd quid per month. i had a good _ off, 150 odd quid per month. i had a good time. — off, 150 odd quid per month. i had a good time, really enjoyed myself at university. — good time, really enjoyed myself at university. but maybe i should have had a _ university. but maybe i should have had a little — university. but maybe i should have had a little bit more of a think about— had a little bit more of a think about where it was going to need to in the _ about where it was going to need to in the end _ about where it was going to need to in the end but i went into it not knowing — in the end but i went into it not knowing my direction and i think the options _ knowing my direction and i think the options should be there for people to study— options should be there for people to study what they want to as long as they— to study what they want to as long as they have had that input before they go— as they have had that input before they go as — as they have had that input before they go as to where it will end up

in the _ they go as to where it will end up inthe end. — they go as to where it will end up in the end. my wife did it the right way. _ in the end. my wife did it the right way. she — in the end. my wife did it the right way, she knew from a young age what she wanted _ way, she knew from a young age what she wanted to do and she went into that field _ she wanted to do and she went into that field whereas i did not have a tour. _ that field whereas i did not have a tour. i_ that field whereas i did not have a tour. iwent— that field whereas i did not have a tour, i went and did sports, i like chasing _ tour, i went and did sports, i like chasing balls around quite a lot! on the back— chasing balls around quite a lot! on the back of— chasing balls around quite a lot! on the back of that, i am struggling to pay the _ the back of that, i am struggling to pay the debt because i did not have any direction so help out in those early— any direction so help out in those early stages with young people, saying _ early stages with young people, saying to — early stages with young people, saying to them, but are you trying to achieve? — saying to them, but are you trying to achieve? things can change throughout that time, you can change direction. _ throughout that time, you can change direction, find another love in life but for— direction, find another love in life but for me — direction, find another love in life but for me personally, i could have done _ but for me personally, i could have done with— but for me personally, i could have done with maybe more of a foot is the endgame? because you realise you are getting _ the endgame? because you realise you are getting yourself into debt but that is— are getting yourself into debt but that is not necessarily the fault of the university. they should be able to offer— the university. they should be able to offer degrees or people should be able to— to offer degrees or people should be able to study for what they want to. it's maybe _ able to study for what they want to. it's maybe more of an impact earlier with young _ it's maybe more of an impact earlier with young people to say, as i say,

what _ with young people to say, as i say, what is _ with young people to say, as i say, what is the — with young people to say, as i say, what is the end goal?— with young people to say, as i say, what is the end goal? yes, here is a text, we what is the end goal? yes, here is a text. we need _ what is the end goal? yes, here is a text, we need to _ what is the end goal? yes, here is a text, we need to take _ what is the end goal? yes, here is a text, we need to take into _ text, we need to take into consideration the social aspect. my son could not pollinate before he went, because it was easier to leave it to me, now he can cook, pay bills, he has learnt to interact. i sent a boy and a man came back. that is girl from staffordshire. in that the truth? i went to university as a mature student, i had children, i volunteered, the experience has helped me get an interview, the only person on my course that volunteered. shocking how many students do not help themselves, my employer will pay for my masters if i choose to continue my education. vicki, come back quickly because i want to come to leander in liverpool. specifically on the point about it is not the degree that the quality of the teaching is threadbare sometimes. go on. you are a lecturer. �* ., ., threadbare sometimes. go on. you are

a lecturer. . ., ., , ., a lecturer. among other things i am. i think there — a lecturer. among other things i am. i think there is _ a lecturer. among other things i am. i think there is a _ a lecturer. among other things i am. i think there is a mistake _ a lecturer. among other things i am. i think there is a mistake made - a lecturer. among other things i am. i think there is a mistake made in . i think there is a mistake made in that the quality of teaching is a quartet to the amount of teaching. the first time i went to university was in 1984, a long time ago! the first thing i noticed was the civil engineers who a lot of my housemates were 9—5, language, politics, 15 or 16 hours a week, the librarians had seven hours of teaching, they were in the bar all day! the kind of degree that you are doing may require, if you are doing something technical you need to be in the laboratory, having hands on the and whatever and you need to be there all day but if you are doing philosophy or librarianship, i lecturer in psychology, you may not need as much input in terms of lectures. but what you do need as

independent learning and but unfortunately we get in universities coming out of high school students who have no idea what independent learning else. you who have no idea what independent learning else-— who have no idea what independent learning else. you have made a vital oint, let learning else. you have made a vital point. let me _ learning else. you have made a vital point. let me get — learning else. you have made a vital point, let me get leander— learning else. you have made a vital point, let me get leander on. - point, let me get leander on. brilliant. let me get this one, aeneas more than a degree, my son is doing a maths degree at leicester university. has no idea what he wants to do but the experience has made him. he has had matured, had fun, grown into a person, best thing that happened to him. what that means for the future? we can do without. i remember being university and their well mature students have always thought they were taking this terribly seriously.— terribly seriously. leander, good mornint. terribly seriously. leander, good morning- i— terribly seriously. leander, good morning- i am — terribly seriously. leander, good morning. i am 37, _ terribly seriously. leander, good morning. iam 37, i— terribly seriously. leander, good morning. i am 37, i am - terribly seriously. leander, good morning. i am 37, i am going - terribly seriously. leander, good| morning. i am 37, i am going into terribly seriously. leander, good - morning. i am 37, i am going into my third— morning. i am 37, i am going into my third year— morning. i am 37, i am going into my third year in— morning. i am 37, i am going into my third year in september, it is the absolute — third year in september, it is the absolute best decision i ever made. i wish _ absolute best decision i ever made. i wish i _ absolute best decision i ever made. i wish i had — absolute best decision i ever made. i wish i had done it 30 years ago and i_ i wish i had done it 30 years ago and i could — i wish i had done it 30 years ago and i could have done. life is not

'ust and i could have done. life is not just about — and i could have done. life is not just about work or a job. it is... it helps — just about work or a job. it is... it helps to— just about work or a job. it is... it helps to channel your thoughts. it helps to channel your thoughts. it helps _ it helps to channel your thoughts. it helps you research, it helps you ignore _ it helps you research, it helps you ignore which battles to pick and which _ ignore which battles to pick and which ones to walk away from. it is notjust— which ones to walk away from. it is notjust about the job. which ones to walk away from. it is not just about the job. and life which ones to walk away from. it is notjust about the job. and life is notjust about the job. and life is notjust— notjust about the job. and life is notjust about the job. and life is notjust about a job. notjust about the job. and life is not just about a job. i have notjust about the job. and life is notjust about a job. i have had five kids. — notjust about a job. i have had five kids, worked my whole life. i have _ five kids, worked my whole life. i have spent — five kids, worked my whole life. i have spent my whole life just going with a _ have spent my whole life just going with a plan of what i should be doing — with a plan of what i should be doing and _ with a plan of what i should be doing and then the pandemic happened and i decided, that is it, time to reflect. — and i decided, that is it, time to reflect. be — and i decided, that is it, time to reflect. be happy. university has helped _ reflect. be happy. university has helped me do that and it has built my confidence, even at the age of 47! i_ my confidence, even at the age of 47! l have — my confidence, even at the age of 47! i have for more confidence now than i _ 47! i have for more confidence now than i did! — 47! i have for more confidence now than i did! , , ., ., than i did! this is great and it sa s it than i did! this is great and it says it all- — than i did! this is great and it says it all. you _ than i did! this is great and it says it all. you have - than i did! this is great and it says it all. you have fun - than i did! this is great and it says it all. you have fun as i

than i did! this is great and it. says it all. you have fun as well, you have a laugh? i says it all. you have fun as well, you have a laugh?— says it all. you have fun as well, you have a laugh? i have absolutely loved it, i you have a laugh? i have absolutely loved it. i am _ you have a laugh? i have absolutely loved it, i am a _ you have a laugh? i have absolutely loved it, i am a grandmother! - you have a laugh? i have absolutely loved it, i am a grandmother! every student— loved it, i am a grandmother! every student there is at least 20 years younger— student there is at least 20 years younger than me but it is incredible. best thing i ever did. and the — incredible. best thing i ever did. and the cradle of the cynic, as i said earlier, some might say is somebody who knows the price of everything on the value of nothing. do you think that is creeping in a bed? ~,,. , do you think that is creeping in a bed? ~ , ,., , , , do you think that is creeping in a bed? absolutely, yes. and i mean to bed? absolutely, yes. and i mean to be even more _ bed? absolutely, yes. and i mean to be even more cynical, _ bed? absolutely, yes. and i mean to be even more cynical, if— bed? absolutely, yes. and i mean to be even more cynical, if a _ be even more cynical, if a government is trying to persuade or dissuade _ government is trying to persuade or dissuade young people from going to university— dissuade young people from going to university that kind of tells me they— university that kind of tells me they do— university that kind of tells me they do not want people to be able to think. _ they do not want people to be able to think. oh! goodness me! they do not want people to be able to think.- goodness me!- they do not want people to be able to think.- goodness me! to think. oh! goodness me! that is very cynical- _ to think. oh! goodness me! that is very cynical- let — to think. oh! goodness me! that is very cynical. let us _ to think. oh! goodness me! that is very cynical. let us put _ to think. oh! goodness me! that is very cynical. let us put on - to think. oh! goodness me! that is very cynical. let us put on the - to think. oh! goodness me! that is very cynical. let us put on the tin l very cynical. let us put on the tin hats, goodness me. what sort of conspiracy theories can we get into here? believe me! and we did get to

the moon, ijust want here? believe me! and we did get to the moon, i just want to here? believe me! and we did get to the moon, ijust want to i landed at university amongst other things! thank you all so much indeed. the prime minister talking about young people all too often being sold a false dream and he is talking about rip degrees. this is not so good. shoplifting, figures are shooting up, then sharon white the birth ofjohn lewis and waitrose to scrub described shoplifting as a crisis, hiding in plain sight. she said this yesterday, there are other figures from the supermarkets as well. people are struggling. do you shoplift, people struggle, you shoplift, people struggle, you shoplift, you cross a moral line surely are the mitigations in these

times? i wonder what you think. if you work in a shop and things got worse? what kind of incidents are you seeing? prices are sky high, all those welcome. if you have stolen from shops get in touch and tell us why, you do not need to give your name. tell us your circumstances. shoplifting, no excuse? here is the news from bethan holmes. rishi sunak will announce tighter controls on universities in england that offer what he calls poor quality degrees.— that offer what he calls poor quality degrees. under the plan universities _ quality degrees. under the plan universities will _ quality degrees. under the plan universities will be _ quality degrees. under the plan universities will be forced - quality degrees. under the plan universities will be forced to - quality degrees. under the plan i universities will be forced to limit the number of students on courses with a high dropout rate as well as those that often fail to lead to professionaljobs. labour says the

cap on the numbers is an attack on the aspirations of young people. results of a clinical trial of a new dimension drug will be published this afternoon at a conference in the netherlands. the drug donanemab shows positive signs of slowing the pace of alzheimer's by about a third. russian officials say two people from the same family have been killed in an apparent attack on a bridge which links southern russia and the crimea peninsula. a source in ukraine's security service has told bbc russia it was behind the attack. millions of people across parts of europe are being warned to expect one of the most intense heat waves in the next few days. the european space agency says temperatures in sicily and sardinia could as 48 degrees. similar conditions are expected in greece and spain.

dame sharon white, chairwoman of john lewis, says criminals have a licence to shoplift amid a rise in cases driven by the cost of living crisis. surely there is no excuse. well, there is crime and there is crime already been pointed out. what about the tax havens, the tax dodging, the tax avoidance, money for your mates, nepotism? dodging, the tax avoidance, money foryour mates, nepotism? how dodging, the tax avoidance, money for your mates, nepotism? how does that compare to somebody stealing a bottle of calpol? let me give you some stats as well. shoplifting call—outs to supermarkets rose by as much as 75% last year, this is a freedom of information request by the daily mirror to police forces across england and wales, that's out today. council bosses in tower hamlets recently revealed the most shoplifted item was calpol. and a report published by the council were

more than a third, 39%, classed as living in poverty. stating shoplifting of essential items has increased, theft of essential products for babies is also on the rise. that is sad, isn't it? the report also found that the largest food bank in the borough is supporting hundreds of households every week and 50% of people accessing it were in some form of employment. what have you seen and witnessed? if you are working on a shop you have to deal with this stuff as well. is there any excuse whatsoever? we have maxine fraser, managing director of retailers against crime and a spokesperson for the british retail consortium coming up. lucy brown, director of security atjohn lewis. under sally in london, not your real name, good morning. london, not your real name, good mornint. london, not your real name, good mornin. _ ,., ., ., london, not your real name, good morning-_ hi- - london, not your real name, good morning._ hi. it - london, not your real name, good morning._ hi. it is l morning. good morning. hi. it is tood to morning. good morning. hi. it is good to have _ morning. good morning. hi. it is good to have you _ morning. good morning. hi. it is good to have you here. - morning. good morning. hi. it is good to have you here. you - morning. good morning. hi. it is good to have you here. you did i good to have you here. you did shoplift for a while, tell me why. i

had just moved into my first ever house and my son was quite young and we just had no house and my son was quite young and wejust had no money at house and my son was quite young and we just had no money at the end of every month. i was paying for my car and had money short term but no money to get around and get to work and get my son to school and we had no money left and there was nothing in the cupboard and i'm afraid to say i had to take that kind of decision, it isn't something i wanted to do, it is something i've never done except ijust didn't have enough money at all. lltlul’hat never done except ijust didn't have enough money at all.— enough money at all. what did you take? basically _ enough money at all. what did you take? basically nappies, _ enough money at all. what did you take? basically nappies, baby - enough money at all. what did you | take? basically nappies, baby milk, food, fruit and _ take? basically nappies, baby milk, food, fruit and veg _ take? basically nappies, baby milk, food, fruit and veg sometimes. - take? basically nappies, baby milk, food, fruit and veg sometimes. the j food, fruit and veg sometimes. the way i would get away with it sometimes was i would put everything in the trolley i needed and walk out and pray i didn't get caught on the

way to the car. it really was a very nerve—racking thing to do. like i said it was a truly last resort moment. but as a parent i'm sure there are plenty of other parents who can understand when you are hungry and there are just no other options. that's all you can do. lanthem options. that's all you can do. when ou did it options. that's all you can do. when you did it for— options. that's all you can do. when you did it for the _ options. that's all you can do. when you did it for the first _ options. that's all you can do. when you did it for the first time, - options. that's all you can do. when you did it for the first time, did - you did it for the first time, did you did it for the first time, did you feel you were crossing a rubicon? you are making a choice? you are going to a place? ida. rubicon? you are making a choice? you are going to a place?— rubicon? you are making a choice? you are going to a place? no, it was thins that you are going to a place? no, it was things that were _ you are going to a place? no, it was things that were essential _ you are going to a place? no, it was things that were essential and - you are going to a place? no, it was things that were essential and it - things that were essential and it seemed the logical thing to do. i'd never even heard of a food bank back then. the truth is even if i had done, my work hours, i was working every single hour i possibly could, spending so much money on childcare, i wasjust about spending so much money on childcare, i was just about keeping all of us afloat and to be honest i was so tired and so exhausted it didn't

seem like... it was scary, but the worst thing about it was how scary it was under the fear of having something put on my criminal record because that could affect future employment. but when you are choosing between potentially future employment and going hungry between the time till your next paycheque you have to do it. even more people are forced into that position nowadays. are forced into that position nowadays-— are forced into that position nowada s. �* ., , ., nowadays. i'm asking a question --eole nowadays. i'm asking a question people will _ nowadays. i'm asking a question people will want _ nowadays. i'm asking a question people will want to _ nowadays. i'm asking a question people will want to ask, - nowadays. i'm asking a question people will want to ask, did - nowadays. i'm asking a question people will want to ask, did you| nowadays. i'm asking a question i people will want to ask, did you not to worry, did you not reflect, dwell on the moral choice you had made? [30 on the moral choice you had made? dr? you think bosses reflect on the low wages they pay their workers? no, i didn't. i was not stealing from a person, it was a corporation that has insurance. no one is going to be

hurt or go without because i was stealing some groceries to feed myself and my son. itjust stealing some groceries to feed myself and my son. it just felt like the thing to do in order to survive. the line is coming and going. i will keep you there. the line is coming and going. i will keep you there-— the line is coming and going. i will keep you there.- no, - the line is coming and going. i will keep you there.- no, i'm - keep you there. sorry. no, i'm really pleased _ keep you there. sorry. no, i'm really pleased that _ keep you there. sorry. no, i'm really pleased that you - keep you there. sorry. no, i'm really pleased that you have i keep you there. sorry. no, i'm. really pleased that you have got keep you there. sorry. no, i'm - really pleased that you have got in touch with us. stay there because we have to seek to explore this. lots of people will be fuming, other people will no doubt have a measure of sympathy. kelly in milton keynes, you work in a supermarket, good morning. you work in a supermarket, good mornint. ,., ., you work in a supermarket, good mornin. _ ,., ., ., you work in a supermarket, good mornint. ., a you work in a supermarket, good i morning-_ you morning. good morning, nick. you must have — morning. good morning, nick. you must have seen _ morning. good morning, nick. you must have seen this _ morning. good morning, nick. you must have seen this a _ morning. good morning, nick. you must have seen this a bit. - morning. good morning, nick. you must have seen this a bit. yeah. i morning. good morning, nick. you| must have seen this a bit. yeah. i'd 'ust like must have seen this a bit. yeah. i'd just like to — must have seen this a bit. yeah. i'd just like to say. _ must have seen this a bit. yeah. i'd just like to say. i — must have seen this a bit. yeah. i'd just like to say, i know— must have seen this a bit. yeah. i'd just like to say, i know everything i just like to say, i know everything is a struggle at the moment but i am a single _ is a struggle at the moment but i am a single mum so obviously i struggle. _ a single mum so obviously i struggle. i only work part—time. but

i struggle. ! only work part—time. but ithink— struggle. i only work part—time. but i think stealing isn't the answer. like i_ i think stealing isn't the answer. like i said — i think stealing isn't the answer. like i said being a single mum, i struggle. — like i said being a single mum, i struggle. i— like i said being a single mum, i struggle. ijust like to say the violence — struggle. ijust like to say the violence and the abuse that we have to take _ violence and the abuse that we have to take off— violence and the abuse that we have to take off shoplifters is outrageous. outrageous. i had an incident— outrageous. outrageous. i had an incident yesterday when i was at work— incident yesterday when i was at work when a gentleman was stealing and he _ work when a gentleman was stealing and he was _ work when a gentleman was stealing and he was throwing things at me, he was threatening to smash me in the 'aw was threatening to smash me in the iaw and _ was threatening to smash me in the iaw and all— was threatening to smash me in the jaw and all that sort of thing. it was really— jaw and all that sort of thing. it was really scary. you know, if it was _ was really scary. you know, if it was like — was really scary. you know, if it was like a — was really scary. you know, if it was like a normal shop, you know, like for— was like a normal shop, you know, like for the — was like a normal shop, you know, like for the kids, for food and all that sort— like for the kids, for food and all that sort of— like for the kids, for food and all that sort of thing i sympathise a little _ that sort of thing i sympathise a little bit. — that sort of thing i sympathise a little bit. but like i said i am a single — little bit. but like i said i am a single mum and i struggle, too. but when _ single mum and i struggle, too. but when it— single mum and i struggle, too. but when it is— single mum and i struggle, too. but when it is people stealing alcohol, or vapes. — when it is people stealing alcohol, or vapes. or— when it is people stealing alcohol, orvapes, or something when it is people stealing alcohol, or vapes, or something like that there _ or vapes, or something like that there is— or vapes, or something like that there isjust no need for it at all. have _ there isjust no need for it at all. have you — there isjust no need for it at all. have you seen it more recently, do you think? i

have you seen it more recently, do ou think? .. , have you seen it more recently, do you think?— you think? i think it is worse at christmas _ you think? i think it is worse at christmas time. _ you think? i think it is worse at christmas time. but _ you think? i think it is worse at christmas time. but it - you think? i think it is worse at christmas time. but it is - you think? i think it is worse at | christmas time. but it is getting more. _ christmas time. but it is getting more, more and more every week. i only work— more, more and more every week. i only work three or four days a week. especially— only work three or four days a week. especially on a sunday, i don't know if it especially on a sunday, idon't know if it is— especially on a sunday, i don't know if it is because it is so busy that people — if it is because it is so busy that people just think no one is watching so i can— people just think no one is watching so i caniust — people just think no one is watching so i canjust do what i want to do, you know? — so i canjust do what i want to do, you know? but it is getting worse, it is _ you know? but it is getting worse, it is but _ you know? but it is getting worse, it is. but like i said ijust don't think... — it is. but like i said ijust don't think... there is help out there, you know. — think... there is help out there, you know. and it being a single mum it is a _ you know. and it being a single mum it is a struggle. you know what, i think— it is a struggle. you know what, i think the — it is a struggle. you know what, i think the worst bit about it is when you catch _ think the worst bit about it is when you catch someone stealing and they say, you catch someone stealing and they say. i _ you catch someone stealing and they say. i can't _ you catch someone stealing and they say, i can't afford food and all this sort— say, i can't afford food and all this sort of— say, i can't afford food and all this sort of thing. but they manage to get— this sort of thing. but they manage to get their nails done, they have the latest —

to get their nails done, they have the latest mobile phone, they have hair extensions, all that sort of thing. — hair extensions, all that sort of thing. and _ hair extensions, all that sort of thing. and it's like if you can't afford — thing. and it's like if you can't afford to— thing. and it's like if you can't afford to feed your children and your— afford to feed your children and your priorities are all wrong. you know— your priorities are all wrong. you know what— your priorities are all wrong. you know what i'm saying?— your priorities are all wrong. you know what i'm saying? people will know what i'm saying? people will know exactly _ know what i'm saying? people will know exactly what _ know what i'm saying? people will know exactly what you _ know what i'm saying? people will know exactly what you are - know what i'm saying? people will know exactly what you are saying. | know what i'm saying? people will| know exactly what you are saying. i want sally to come back in on this. the point there that kelly is making and others have made, it isjust wrong but you felt that there was no alternative. like wrong but you felt that there was no alternative. .. ,., wrong but you felt that there was no alternative. ~' , ., alternative. like i said before, i reall did alternative. like i said before, i really did wish _ alternative. like i said before, i really did wish that _ alternative. like i said before, i really did wish that i _ alternative. like i said before, i really did wish that i wasn't - alternative. like i said before, i really did wish that i wasn't in l really did wish that i wasn't in that position, and i have to say during the time is what i had barely any money my friends were amazing, if i said i can't come out this weekend because i don't have any money and i've got no childcare or whatever, in that time of my life i had friends, beautician friends, or friends who also had children and they would say, don't worry, i can look after your trial, i will do your nails, i will do your make—up. if we had things to go to or a job

interview. you have to have a phone these days. you have to have a phone to apply for a job. i think that stereotype of a woman who spends all of her money on herself and then has no money left for her children, i think it is one of those stereotypes thatis think it is one of those stereotypes that is hashed out repeatedly in front of the media. but like i said, when i was really, really poor i didn't spend any money on myself, i couldn't afford to. but if anyone saw me they would say she does have a phone, she does have a car, what would you like me to do? to sell my car would have meant we ended up in much further poverty, i wouldn't have been able to go to work, i wouldn't have been able to drive to work or the childminder. sure, we can make all of these cuts that then affect us even more negatively down the line. these things that you spend a lot of time and effort building up, i spent ages getting a driving licence because i wanted that to be something that would enhance me as an employee. but you know, when you don't have enough money, do you think i'm just going

to cut away everything except for... most people don't want to just exist in their homes and do nothing day in and day out and just work and just live to work. that's not a real life for anyone. and nobody should have to live like that. may in a very short—term way, and like i said, when i was shoplifting it wasn't because i wanted to, it wasn't because i wanted to, it wasn't because i wanted to, it wasn't because i was getting anything extra out of it, it was just to survive. kelly, just to survive, i want to kelly's view on that and then we will get the thoughts of the director of security atjohn lewis kelly, when it is happening, how do members of the public react when they see another member of the public stealing something? at, they see another member of the public stealing something? a, lot they see another member of the public stealing something? a lot of them are in — public stealing something? a lot of them are in shock. _ public stealing something? a lot of them are in shock. yesterday - them are in shock. yesterday especially there was a lady and her

child about eight or nine and the look of— child about eight or nine and the look of shock on the boy's face, and the mother— look of shock on the boy's face, and the mother was like, because this gentleman was throwing things at us swearing _ gentleman was throwing things at us swearing at us and threatening us. this thing — swearing at us and threatening us. this thing about stereotyping, it is not stereotyping at all. at the end of the _ not stereotyping at all. at the end of the day. — not stereotyping at all. at the end of the day, yes, you need a phone, i don't _ of the day, yes, you need a phone, i don't dispute — of the day, yes, you need a phone, i don't dispute that, but what i'm saying _ don't dispute that, but what i'm saying is— don't dispute that, but what i'm saying is i've got a mobile phone, you know. — saying is i've got a mobile phone, you know, my phone is an iphone 6. but when _ you know, my phone is an iphone 6. but when you — you know, my phone is an iphone 6. but when you get shoplifters that have got — but when you get shoplifters that have got the iphone13 pro, but when you get shoplifters that have got the iphone 13 pro, all but when you get shoplifters that have got the iphone13 pro, all that sort of— have got the iphone13 pro, all that sort of thing, that is an expensive phone _ sort of thing, that is an expensive phone to — sort of thing, that is an expensive phone to have. i sort of thing, that is an expensive phone to have-— sort of thing, that is an expensive hone to have. , , , .,, phone to have. i suppose some people are sa int , phone to have. i suppose some people are saying. here _ phone to have. i suppose some people are saying, here is _ phone to have. i suppose some people are saying, here is a _ phone to have. i suppose some people are saying, here is a text, _ phone to have. i suppose some people are saying, here is a text, and - are saying, here is a text, and before i speak to others, so in bristol is also coming in. hello, sue. ijust want bristol is also coming in. hello, sue. i just want to do this text here. there is a distinction between people who shoplift to live and those who shoplift for crime, i've witnessed both and personally won his greed and one is to survive.

that is from jb in his greed and one is to survive. that is fromjb in oldham. all his greed and one is to survive. that is from jb in oldham. all views accepted. and this is one here that says i work in a food hall, shoplifting is rife, people steal to sail on, meat is stolen blatantly, put in a sports holdall, at least 400 quid at the time, this is obviously a business. the same bloke to go to every supermarket, we had a officer corps recently, lost his job. this one, i work in a shop, the problem is becoming much worse, meat, dairy products, cereals, tinned goods, people become aggressive and violence. that's what kelly said. when challenged. i can understand able are struggling but we all are. i prefer not to give my name, i've worked in a supermarket in retailfor over two name, i've worked in a supermarket in retail for over two decades. name, i've worked in a supermarket in retailfor over two decades. i've never seen so much shoplifting in our store. never seen so much shoplifting in ourstore. i've never seen so much shoplifting in our store. i've had syringes pointed at me by shoplifters who were determined to steal anything from booze and razor blades, joints of meat, it is on the up and people will get hurt. hi, sue. you have

witnessed something quite recently, haven't you?— witnessed something quite recently, haven't you? yes. my daughter and i recently witnessed _ haven't you? yes. my daughter and i recently witnessed a _ haven't you? yes. my daughter and i recently witnessed a couple - recently witnessed a couple blatantly— recently witnessed a couple blatantly stealing _ recently witnessed a couple blatantly stealing four- recently witnessed a couple | blatantly stealing four duvet recently witnessed a couple - blatantly stealing four duvet covers in quite _ blatantly stealing four duvet covers in quite a _ blatantly stealing four duvet covers in quite a large _ blatantly stealing four duvet covers in quite a large store. _ blatantly stealing four duvet covers in quite a large store. we - blatantly stealing four duvet covers in quite a large store. we were - blatantly stealing four duvet covers in quite a large store. we were oni blatantly stealing four duvet coversl in quite a large store. we were on a short— in quite a large store. we were on a short break— in quite a large store. we were on a short break at— in quite a large store. we were on a short break at the _ in quite a large store. we were on a short break at the time _ in quite a large store. we were on a short break at the time up - in quite a large store. we were on a short break at the time up in- short break at the time up in cheltenham _ short break at the time up in cheltenham visiting - short break at the time up in cheltenham visiting our - short break at the time up in- cheltenham visiting our daughter oddly— cheltenham visiting our daughter oddly enough _ cheltenham visiting our daughter oddly enough that _ cheltenham visiting our daughter oddly enough that about - cheltenham visiting our daughter oddly enough that about to - cheltenham visiting our daughter oddly enough that about to from | oddly enough that about to from university. — oddly enough that about to from university. one _ oddly enough that about to from university. one guy— oddly enough that about to from university. one guy stuffed - oddly enough that about to from university. one guy stuffed ton university. one guy stuffed two duvet _ university. one guy stuffed two duvet covers _ university. one guy stuffed two duvet covers down _ university. one guy stuffed two duvet covers down the - university. one guy stuffed two duvet covers down the front - university. one guy stuffed two duvet covers down the front ofl university. one guy stuffed two i duvet covers down the front of his jacket _ duvet covers down the front of his jacket and — duvet covers down the front of his jacket and my— duvet covers down the front of his jacket and my daughter _ duvet covers down the front of his jacket and my daughter alerted i duvet covers down the front of hisl jacket and my daughter alerted me duvet covers down the front of his - jacket and my daughter alerted me to this and _ jacket and my daughter alerted me to this and i_ jacket and my daughter alerted me to this and i walked _ jacket and my daughter alerted me to this and i walked around _ jacket and my daughter alerted me to this and i walked around the - jacket and my daughter alerted me to this and i walked around the corner. this and i walked around the corner to see _ this and i walked around the corner to see the — this and i walked around the corner to see the female _ this and i walked around the corner to see the female that _ this and i walked around the corner to see the female that was - this and i walked around the corner to see the female that was with - this and i walked around the cornerl to see the female that was with him 'ust to see the female that was with him just stick— to see the female that was with him just stick two — to see the female that was with him just stick two under— to see the female that was with him just stick two under her— to see the female that was with him just stick two under her arm - to see the female that was with him just stick two under her arm and - just stick two under her arm and they— just stick two under her arm and theyiust — just stick two under her arm and theyjust walked _ just stick two under her arm and theyjust walked out. _ just stick two under her arm and theyjust walked out. i- just stick two under her arm and theyjust walked out. i followed | theyjust walked out. i followed them _ theyjust walked out. i followed them which _ theyjust walked out. i followed them which went _ theyjust walked out. i followed them which went against - theyjust walked out. i followed them which went against all- theyjust walked out. i followed them which went against all my instincts — them which went against all my instincts because _ them which went against all my instincts because i— them which went against all my instincts because i was- them which went against all my instincts because i was a - them which went against all myi instincts because i was a serving police _ instincts because i was a serving police officer— instincts because i was a serving police officer for— instincts because i was a serving police officer for 30 _ instincts because i was a serving police officer for 30 years - instincts because i was a serving police officer for 30 years and i instincts because i was a serving i police officer for 30 years and died only recently— police officer for 30 years and died only recently retired. _ police officer for 30 years and died only recently retired. i _ police officer for 30 years and died only recently retired. i thought, i only recently retired. i thought, well. _ only recently retired. i thought, well. i'm — only recently retired. i thought, well. i'm on— only recently retired. i thought, well, i'm on holiday, _ only recently retired. i thought, well, i'm on holiday, they- only recently retired. i thought, | well, i'm on holiday, they didn't look— well, i'm on holiday, they didn't look particularly— well, i'm on holiday, they didn't look particularly pleasant. - well, i'm on holiday, they didn't look particularly pleasant. it - well, i'm on holiday, they didn't| look particularly pleasant. it was difficult. — look particularly pleasant. it was difficult. i'm _ look particularly pleasant. it was difficult, i'm 54 _ look particularly pleasant. it was difficult, i'm 54 but _ look particularly pleasant. it was difficult, i'm 54 but i'm - look particularly pleasant. it was difficult, i'm 54 but i'm still- difficult, i'm 54 but i'm still quite — difficult, i'm 54 but i'm still quite fit _ difficult, i'm 54 but i'm still quite fit and _ difficult, i'm 54 but i'm still quite fit and i've _ difficult, i'm 54 but i'm still quite fit and i've still- difficult, i'm 54 but i'm still quite fit and i've still got i difficult, i'm 54 but i'm still. quite fit and i've still got quite difficult, i'm 54 but i'm still- quite fit and i've still got quite a lot in— quite fit and i've still got quite a lot in me — quite fit and i've still got quite a lot in me that— quite fit and i've still got quite a lot in me that i— quite fit and i've still got quite a lot in me that i felt— quite fit and i've still got quite a lot in me that i felt i— quite fit and i've still got quite a lot in me that i felt i could - quite fit and i've still got quite a lot in me that i felt i could have| lot in me that i felt i could have tackled — lot in me that i felt i could have tackled them _ lot in me that i felt i could have tackled them but _ lot in me that i felt i could have tackled them but i _ lot in me that i felt i could have tackled them but i thought - lot in me that i felt i could have tackled them but i thought no, i lot in me that i felt i could have i tackled them but i thought no, i'm not doing —

tackled them but i thought no, i'm not doing that. _ tackled them but i thought no, i'm not doing that, i'm _ tackled them but i thought no, i'm not doing that, i'm not— tackled them but i thought no, i'm not doing that, i'm not going - tackled them but i thought no, i'm not doing that, i'm not going to. not doing that, i'm not going to ruin our— not doing that, i'm not going to ruin our break. _ not doing that, i'm not going to ruin our break. so _ not doing that, i'm not going to ruin our break. so i _ not doing that, i'm not going to ruin our break. so i went- not doing that, i'm not going to ruin our break. so i went to - not doing that, i'm not going to ruin our break. so i went to getj not doing that, i'm not going to- ruin our break. so i went to get the manager— ruin our break. so i went to get the manager and — ruin our break. so i went to get the manager and she _ ruin our break. so i went to get the manager and she did _ ruin our break. so i went to get the manager and she did follow- ruin our break. so i went to get the manager and she did follow them i ruin our break. so i went to get the - manager and she did follow them down the road _ manager and she did follow them down the road and _ manager and she did follow them down the road and she — manager and she did follow them down the road and she came _ manager and she did follow them down the road and she came back— manager and she did follow them down the road and she came back a - manager and she did follow them down the road and she came back a short - the road and she came back a short time _ the road and she came back a short time later— the road and she came back a short time later and — the road and she came back a short time later and said _ the road and she came back a short time later and said i've _ the road and she came back a short time later and said i've lost- the road and she came back a short time later and said i've lost sight. time later and said i've lost sight of them. — time later and said i've lost sight of them. i— time later and said i've lost sight of them, i don't _ time later and said i've lost sight of them, i don't know— time later and said i've lost sight of them, i don't know where - time later and said i've lost sight| of them, i don't know where they have _ of them, i don't know where they have gone. — of them, i don't know where they have gone. i_ of them, i don't know where they have gone. i said _ of them, i don't know where they have gone. i said to _ of them, i don't know where they have gone. i said to her, - of them, i don't know where they have gone. i said to her, why- of them, i don't know where they. have gone. i said to her, why don't you call— have gone. i said to her, why don't you call the — have gone. i said to her, why don't you call the police? _ have gone. i said to her, why don't you call the police? she _ have gone. i said to her, why don't you call the police? she said - have gone. i said to her, why don't you call the police? she said they. you call the police? she said they rarely— you call the police? she said they rarely turn — you call the police? she said they rarely turn up. _ you call the police? she said they rarely turn up. i_ you call the police? she said they rarely turn up. i don't— you call the police? she said they rarely turn up. idon't know- you call the police? she said they rarely turn up. i don't know why. you call the police? she said they rarely turn up. i don't know why i| rarely turn up. i don't know why i was dumbfounded _ rarely turn up. i don't know why i was dumbfounded because - rarely turn up. i don't know why i was dumbfounded because i- rarely turn up. i don't know why i. was dumbfounded because i wasn't really— was dumbfounded because i wasn't really surprised. _ was dumbfounded because i wasn't really surprised. i— was dumbfounded because i wasn't really surprised. i just _ was dumbfounded because i wasn't really surprised. i just thought - really surprised. ijust thought they— really surprised. ijust thought theyjust — really surprised. ijust thought theyjust got _ really surprised. ijust thought theyjust got away _ really surprised. ijust thought theyjust got away with - really surprised. ijust thought theyjust got away with it, - really surprised. ijust thought theyjust got away with it, no. really surprised. i just thought i theyjust got away with it, no one is going _ theyjust got away with it, no one is going to — theyjust got away with it, no one is going to do _ theyjust got away with it, no one is going to do anything _ theyjust got away with it, no one is going to do anything about - theyjust got away with it, no one is going to do anything about it. i theyjust got away with it, no one i is going to do anything about it. we have been— is going to do anything about it. we have been hearing _ is going to do anything about it. we have been hearing this— is going to do anything about it. we have been hearing this for- is going to do anything about it. we have been hearing this for years. i. have been hearing this for years. i wasn't _ have been hearing this for years. i wasn't actually _ have been hearing this for years. i wasn't actually working _ have been hearing this for years. i wasn't actually working on - have been hearing this for years. i wasn't actually working on the - wasn't actually working on the streets — wasn't actually working on the streets as— wasn't actually working on the streets as a _ wasn't actually working on the streets as a police _ wasn't actually working on the streets as a police officer - wasn't actually working on the streets as a police officer for i wasn't actually working on the - streets as a police officer for many years _ streets as a police officer for many years but _ streets as a police officer for many years but i— streets as a police officer for many years but i used _ streets as a police officer for many years but i used to _ streets as a police officer for many years but i used to talk— streets as a police officer for many years but i used to talk to - streets as a police officer for many years but i used to talk to my- years but i used to talk to my colleagues _ years but i used to talk to my colleagues frequently. - years but i used to talk to my colleagues frequently. and i years but i used to talk to my. colleagues frequently. and this is quite _ colleagues frequently. and this is quite clear— colleagues frequently. and this is quite clear it _ colleagues frequently. and this is quite clear it as _ colleagues frequently. and this is quite clear it as a _ colleagues frequently. and this is quite clear it as a result - colleagues frequently. and this is quite clear it as a result of - quite clear it as a result of theresa _ quite clear it as a result of theresa may— quite clear it as a result of theresa may slashing - quite clear it as a result of i theresa may slashing police quite clear it as a result of _ theresa may slashing police numbers years ago. _ theresa may slashing police numbers years ago. there _ theresa may slashing police numbers years ago. there just _ theresa may slashing police numbers years ago. there just aren't - theresa may slashing police numbers years ago. there just aren't the - years ago. there just aren't the police _ years ago. there just aren't the police officers _ years ago. there just aren't the police officers on _ years ago. there just aren't the police officers on the _ years ago. there just aren't the police officers on the street - years ago. there just aren't the i police officers on the street doing the job— police officers on the street doing the job like — police officers on the street doing the job like they _ police officers on the street doing the job like they should _ police officers on the street doing the job like they should be - police officers on the street doing the job like they should be doing. j the job like they should be doing. it is such— the job like they should be doing. it is such a — the job like they should be doing. it is such a shame _ the job like they should be doing. it is such a shame because - the job like they should be doing. it is such a shame because the i it is such a shame because the police — it is such a shame because the police don't _ it is such a shame because the police don't want _ it is such a shame because the police don't want this - it is such a shame because the police don't want this to - it is such a shame because the police don't want this to be - police don't want this to be happening. _ police don't want this to be happening but— police don't want this to be happening. but you - police don't want this to be happening. but you know, i police don't want this to be - happening. but you know, theyjust havent— happening. but you know, theyjust haven't got— happening. but you know, theyjust haven't got the _ happening. but you know, theyjust haven't got the time _ happening. but you know, theyjust haven't got the time to _ happening. but you know, theyjust haven't got the time to deal -

happening. but you know, theyjust haven't got the time to deal with i haven't got the time to deal with this what— haven't got the time to deal with this what may _ haven't got the time to deal with this what may seem _ haven't got the time to deal with this what may seem low- haven't got the time to deal with this what may seem low level. haven't got the time to deal with - this what may seem low level crime. they are _ this what may seem low level crime. they are going — this what may seem low level crime. they are going to _ this what may seem low level crime. they are going to jobs _ this what may seem low level crime. they are going to jobs that _ this what may seem low level crime. they are going to jobs that are - this what may seem low level crime. they are going to jobs that are much more _ they are going to jobs that are much more serious — they are going to jobs that are much more serious without _ they are going to jobs that are much more serious without having - they are going to jobs that are much more serious without having to - they are going to jobs that are much more serious without having to save | more serious without having to save lives _ more serious without having to save lives. �* more serious without having to save lives. . ., ,., , ., lives. and also the in-store security. — lives. and also the in-store security. the _ lives. and also the in-store security, the government i lives. and also the in-store - security, the government would say they are building police numbers up again, the government would argue that of course, but at that point is interesting, and also the in—store stuff is interesting. apologies to lucy and maxine and tom for putting you on hold for a bit. but you are not listening to dreadful music you're listening to incredible callers. sean in york, i think this will lead quite nicely into the director of security atjohn lewis, lucy brown. you work at waitrose. what is going on, sean? goad what is going on, sean? good morning. _ what is going on, sean? good morning, nick. _ what is going on, sean? good morning, nick. love _ what is going on, sean? good morning, nick. love the - what is going on, sean? good| morning, nick. love the show. what is going on, sean? good - morning, nick. love the show. thank ou. yes, morning, nick. love the show. thank you- yes. we — morning, nick. love the show. thank you- yes. we are _ morning, nick. love the show. thank you. yes, we are getting _ morning, nick. love the show. thank you. yes, we are getting a _ morning, nick. love the show. thank you. yes, we are getting a lot - morning, nick. love the show. thank you. yes, we are getting a lot of- you. yes, we are getting a lot of shoplifters _ you. yes, we are getting a lot of shoplifters at — you. yes, we are getting a lot of shoplifters at our _ you. yes, we are getting a lot of shoplifters at our store, - you. yes, we are getting a lot of shoplifters at our store, a - you. yes, we are getting a lot of shoplifters at our store, a lot. you. yes, we are getting a lot of shoplifters at our store, a lot of| shoplifters at our store, a lot of expensive alcohol going. like you say, they will come in and get a

trolley and they will put the alcohol in the trolley and cover it with prepacked lettuce, try and wheel it out of the store. they will also come in and shove it in the jacket and run out of the store with it. we have had managers that have actually gave them the alcohol and they have said to them just keep it and just go because they have felt threatened. and just go because they have felt threatened-— and just go because they have felt threatened.- by _ and just go because they have felt threatened.- by the - and just go because they have felt i threatened.- by the people. threatened. really? by the people. yeah. threatened. really? by the people. yeah- they — threatened. really? by the people. yeah. they have _ threatened. really? by the people. yeah. they have felt _ threatened. really? by the people. yeah. they have felt threatened . threatened. really? by the people. yeah. they have felt threatened so| yeah. they have felt threatened so they have just said just keep it and go. they have actually given them the alcohol, the shoplifters. john lewis and waitrose have cut down on security in the stores. so we don't have security now in our store. we

used to have a guy walking around. so he would look and follow the shoplifters and catch them. but they did away with that due to costings. that is where we are at with that really. it is a bit of a free for all. �* , ., , really. it is a bit of a free for all, �* , ., , ., really. it is a bit of a free for all. . , ., really. it is a bit of a free for all. �* , .,, ., peole all. and people are scared. people are scared. — all. and people are scared. people are scared, managers _ all. and people are scared. people are scared, managers are - all. and people are scared. people are scared, managers are scared, | are scared, managers are scared, shop workers are scared, yeah. luci; shop workers are scared, yeah. lucy brown, director _ shop workers are scared, yeah. lucy brown, director of _ shop workers are scared, yeah. lucy brown, director of security at john brown, director of security atjohn lewis. john lewis, waitrose of course, lucy, hi.— lewis. john lewis, waitrose of course, lucy, hi. morning, nick. what about— course, lucy, hi. morning, nick. what about that _ course, lucy, hi. morning, nick. what about that from _ course, lucy, hi. morning, nick. what about that from sean? - course, lucy, hi. morning, nick. i what about that from sean? they course, lucy, hi. morning, nick. - what about that from sean? they have cut down on security and people are scared to confront shoplifters. i think if we start about the aggression, we are seeing an increasing level of aggression which is why— increasing level of aggression which is why we _ increasing level of aggression which is why we talk about partner safety

first. _ is why we talk about partner safety first. we _ is why we talk about partner safety first. we talk about a number of measures— first. we talk about a number of measures we have in place to keep people _ measures we have in place to keep people safe, we have deployed body—worn cameras into every one of our waitrose — body—worn cameras into every one of our waitrose shops which people can turn on _ our waitrose shops which people can turn on to— our waitrose shops which people can turn on to record both audio and video. _ turn on to record both audio and video. we — turn on to record both audio and video. we are rolling out better cctv. _ video. we are rolling out better cctv. we — video. we are rolling out better cctv. we have also got some specially— cctv. we have also got some specially trained partners and third parties _ specially trained partners and third parties to— specially trained partners and third parties to help deter people. but as i say the _ parties to help deter people. but as i say the primary thing for us is partner— i say the primary thing for us is partner safety. having spoken about letting _ partner safety. having spoken about letting people go... what partner safety. having spoken about letting people go- - -_ partner safety. having spoken about letting people go... what do you say to sean? with _ letting people go... what do you say to sean? with respect, _ letting people go... what do you say to sean? with respect, his _ to sean? with respect, his description of what is going on in the waitrose from his experience, managers watching shop lifters go with the goods because they are fearing for their safety and in—store security is not what it was? in-store security is not what it was? ~ . in-store security is not what it was? . . . ., , in-store security is not what it was? . ., . ., , ., in-store security is not what it was? . ., . ., ,, in-store security is not what it was? . ., . .,, ., , , ., was? we are increasing our spend on security and — was? we are increasing our spend on security and we _ was? we are increasing our spend on security and we will— was? we are increasing our spend on security and we will continue - was? we are increasing our spend on security and we will continue to - was? we are increasing our spend on security and we will continue to do i security and we will continue to do so while _ security and we will continue to do so while we — security and we will continue to do so while we need to. the example in that case _ so while we need to. the example in that case where somebody has let somebody ago would be an example of safety _ somebody ago would be an example of safety first. _ somebody ago would be an example of safety first. we might not be able to catch _ safety first. we might not be able to catch that shoplifter on that occasion — to catch that shoplifter on that occasion but we would absolutely use things— occasion but we would absolutely use things like _ occasion but we would absolutely use things like cctv to gather evidence

to catch _ things like cctv to gather evidence to catch them at some point in the future. _ to catch them at some point in the future. we — to catch them at some point in the future. we would pass that onto the police _ future. we would pass that onto the police and _ future. we would pass that onto the police and if there is a prolific offender— police and if there is a prolific offender we would hope that that the police _ offender we would hope that that the police will _ offender we would hope that that the police will be able to deal with them. — police will be able to deal with them. on— police will be able to deal with them. on that occasion if somebody's fearing _ them. on that occasion if somebody's fearing for— them. on that occasion if somebody's fearing for their safety we wouldn't want them to intervene. we would rather— want them to intervene. we would rather they— want them to intervene. we would rather they de—escalate and defuse the situation and deal with it later rather— the situation and deal with it later rather than put somebody in harm's away. _ rather than put somebody in harm's awa . . , rather than put somebody in harm's awa , ., , ., ., rather than put somebody in harm's awa. . , ., ., , �* away. that is fair enough, isn't it, sean? that's _ away. that is fair enough, isn't it, sean? that's fair _ away. that is fair enough, isn't it, sean? that's fair enough, - sean? that's fair enough, definitely. _ sean? that's fair enough, definitely, they _ sean? that's fair enough, definitely, they have - sean? that's fair enough, definitely, they have to i sean? that's fair enough, - definitely, they have to protect the partners, like you say, but profits go down if things start flying out the door. but like you say, i think in—store security should maybe he returned. like you say, the police are under a lot of pressure so they don't turn up. $55 are under a lot of pressure so they don't turn up— are under a lot of pressure so they don't turn up._ like . are under a lot of pressure so theyl don't turn up._ like you don't turn up. as sue said. like you sa , don't turn up. as sue said. like you say. moving — don't turn up. as sue said. like you say, moving forward, _ don't turn up. as sue said. like you say, moving forward, the _ don't turn up. as sue said. like you say, moving forward, the body - say, moving forward, the body cameras is a good idea, to a degree. but they still do as they like. they don't know who these people are. they are off into the streets. i5

don't know who these people are. they are off into the streets. is it worse than _ they are off into the streets. is it worse than it _ they are off into the streets. is it worse than it has _ they are off into the streets. is it worse than it has been? it - they are off into the streets. is it worse than it has been? it is - they are off into the streets. is it i worse than it has been? it is worse now than ever. _ worse than it has been? it is worse now than ever, definitely, - worse than it has been? it is worse now than ever, definitely, nick, . now than ever, definitely, nick, yeah. now than ever, definitely, nick, eah. �* , , ., , yeah. let's bring in maxine fraser, manattin yeah. let's bring in maxine fraser, managing director _ yeah. let's bring in maxine fraser, managing director of _ yeah. let's bring in maxine fraser, managing director of retailers - managing director of retailers against crime. good morning, maxine. good morning, nick. [30 against crime. good morning, maxine. good morning, nick.— good morning, nick. do you draw a moral difference, _ good morning, nick. do you draw a moral difference, do _ good morning, nick. do you draw a moral difference, do look— good morning, nick. do you draw a moral difference, do look upon - good morning, nick. do you draw a moral difference, do look upon it i moral difference, do look upon it differently but who still stuff whether it be duvet covers which are expensive and whole that of other stuff, alcohol, with a lot of lettuce on it, somebody steals as a criminal enterprise from a mother who steals some calpol, do you see a difference? ., ., , ., �* difference? normally i don't. however. _ difference? normally i don't. however. i— difference? normally i don't. however, i completely - difference? normally i don't. - however, i completely empathise difference? normally i don't. _ however, i completely empathise when your caller— however, i completely empathise when your caller was speaking about that and i_ your caller was speaking about that and i understand he would steal to feed your— and i understand he would steal to feed your children. on the other hand _ feed your children. on the other hand because we are a retail crime

partnership— hand because we are a retail crime partnership will look at it, everybody who steals is a thief basically — everybody who steals is a thief basically and that's the way it is usually. — basically and that's the way it is usually. on the 25 years we have been _ usually. on the 25 years we have been a _ usually. on the 25 years we have been a crime partnership we have never— been a crime partnership we have never seen — been a crime partnership we have never seen it so bad as it is today. some _ never seen it so bad as it is today. some of— never seen it so bad as it is today. some of it — never seen it so bad as it is today. some of it may be to do with the cost of— some of it may be to do with the cost of living crisis. however the organised — cost of living crisis. however the organised crime aspect to it and the individuals— organised crime aspect to it and the individuals who steal to fund their lifestyle _ individuals who steal to fund their lifestyle is really horrendous at the moment. there are no consequences. somebody else in the conversation said police resource has been — conversation said police resource has been stripped. absolutely. that is a problem because the police who we work— is a problem because the police who we work with really are passionate about _ we work with really are passionate about what they do and they do everything in their power to have these _ everything in their power to have these people arrested and brought to justice. _ these people arrested and brought to justice. so _ these people arrested and brought to 'ustice. ., , ., , , justice. so there are some seriously bad people--- _ justice. so there are some seriously bad people... just _ justice. so there are some seriously bad people... just a _ justice. so there are some seriously bad people... just a bit _ justice. so there are some seriously bad people... just a bit of _ justice. so there are some seriously bad people... just a bit of feedback| bad people... just a bit of feedback there. some seriously bad people

doing stuff for profit as part of a kind of criminal enterprise and that aspect of it is getting worse? yes. aspect of it is getting worse? yes, absolutely- _ aspect of it is getting worse? yes, absolutely. and _ aspect of it is getting worse? yes, absolutely. and the _ aspect of it is getting worse? yes, absolutely. and the violence the stores _ absolutely. and the violence the stores are — absolutely. and the violence the stores are suffering against the staff. _ stores are suffering against the staff. the — stores are suffering against the staff. the really sad thing is after the violent incident has occurred that's— the violent incident has occurred that's not— the violent incident has occurred that's not the end of it, the staff still suffer — that's not the end of it, the staff still suffer for it.— still suffer for it. everyone who steals is a _ still suffer for it. everyone who steals is a thief— still suffer for it. everyone who steals is a thief you _ still suffer for it. everyone who steals is a thief you said - still suffer for it. everyone who steals is a thief you said quite l steals is a thief you said quite clearly. some texts here. "i was in a shop, i saw a chap coming quickly and pick up a piece of meat and all the shopkeepers were busy so i decided to say something, so i shouted, i think you'd better put that back, and he put it back and rushed out of the store. i'm always watchful and would act that way again, even rugby tackle them." craig, you've got to be careful. i am a retired police officer and the violence used to prevent a rest was

ridiculous. i had a knife presented at me by a drunk person trying to steal a cheap bottle of alcohol. that is william in aberdeen. george is in salisbury, great cole, sean, thank you. george in salisbury, you work in the high street. what are you seeing? no i do. where i work personally we haven't seen anything, we don't think at least, happen to us. but we are part of the shop watch system and so you will get alerts on your phone happening saying there is a theft here or there is a theft there but the main issueis there is a theft there but the main issue is the security guards can't do anything about it and so the people who are stealing know this and theyjust people who are stealing know this and they just walk people who are stealing know this and theyjust walk in and walk out. walk in and walk out. is the problem getting worse? i walk in and walk out. is the problem getting worse?— walk in and walk out. is the problem getting worse? i mean, we get alerts dail , getting worse? i mean, we get alerts daily, sometimes _ getting worse? i mean, we get alerts daily, sometimes up _ getting worse? i mean, we get alerts daily, sometimes up to _ getting worse? i mean, we get alerts daily, sometimes up to three - getting worse? i mean, we get alerts daily, sometimes up to three times i getting worse? i mean, we get alerts daily, sometimes up to three times a day and it's the same places. i'm not sure why the security guards can't do anything, maybe it is legal

reasons. ., ., , , , reasons. tom holder, spokesperson for the british _ reasons. tom holder, spokesperson for the british retail _ reasons. tom holder, spokesperson for the british retail consortium, . for the british retail consortium, good morning, tom. do security have their hands tied? what is going on? i think it's really difficult. i think— i think it's really difficult. i think retailers really prioritise obviously the safety of their staff, including — obviously the safety of their staff, including their security. security are there — including their security. security are there to dissuade and retailers are there to dissuade and retailers are spending something like £700 million _ are spending something like £700 million on — are spending something like £700 million on security measures, that's money— million on security measures, that's money that— million on security measures, that's money that would obviously be better served _ money that would obviously be better served bringing down prices at the moment— served bringing down prices at the moment which would also help customers. the key is while i do empathise — customers. the key is while i do empathise with sally's story it is understanding it isn't a victimless crime. _ understanding it isn't a victimless crime. as— understanding it isn't a victimless crime. as we have heard multiple times— crime. as we have heard multiple times when offenders are, when people _ times when offenders are, when people tried to stop them, very quickly— people tried to stop them, very quickly things can, not always, but can escalate. and that puts people

at danger. — can escalate. and that puts people at danger. there is over 850 incidents— at danger. there is over 850 incidents of violence and abuse in retail— incidents of violence and abuse in retail stores every single day and no one _ retail stores every single day and no one should have to go to do their 'ob no one should have to go to do their job fearing _ no one should have to go to do their job fearing violence. it's just no one should have to go to do their job fearing violence. it'sjust not good _ job fearing violence. it'sjust not good enough. sol job fearing violence. it'sjust not good enough. so i think the message to anyone _ good enough. so i think the message to anyone considering it is it isn't a victimless _ to anyone considering it is it isn't a victimless crime. almost £1 billion. — a victimless crime. almost £1 billion, 950 million that is stolen is again— billion, 950 million that is stolen is again money that would be better used bringing down the price for everyone. — used bringing down the price for everyone. i do understand it is a difficult — everyone. i do understand it is a difficult time out there with the cost of— difficult time out there with the cost of living crisis. but that doesn't _ cost of living crisis. but that doesn't excuse something which can really— doesn't excuse something which can really destroy lives. the other thing — really destroy lives. the other thing that has slightly been touched on is the _ thing that has slightly been touched on is the issue of organised crime which _ on is the issue of organised crime which seems to be on the increase. we hear— which seems to be on the increase. we hear about stores that are being hit multiple times by the same groups— hit multiple times by the same groups and the police are not really doing _ groups and the police are not really doing enough to challenge that. i'm sure that's — doing enough to challenge that. i'm sure that's because they are

stretched. but a lot of the time they— stretched. but a lot of the time they are — stretched. but a lot of the time they are not even attending. and if police _ they are not even attending. and if police don't — they are not even attending. and if police don't attend these thefts and others. _ police don't attend these thefts and others, then why will retailers continue — others, then why will retailers continue to report it to the police if they— continue to report it to the police if they feel it is a waste of time? sally. _ if they feel it is a waste of time? sally. still— if they feel it is a waste of time? sally, still with us?— if they feel it is a waste of time? sally, still with us? yes. you have sholifted sally, still with us? yes. you have shoplifted before _ sally, still with us? lezs you have shoplifted before an assay driven to it by desperation will stop lucy, the head of security atjohn lewis said a couple of moments ago, lucy brown, if you steal you are a thief. do you look upon yourself as a thief? ,, . . ., , do you look upon yourself as a thief? ,, . , , , ., thief? sure, technically, yes, that word is absolutely _ thief? sure, technically, yes, that word is absolutely 10096 _ thief? sure, technically, yes, that word is absolutely 100% correct. i thief? sure, technically, yes, that i word is absolutely 10096 correct. but word is absolutely 100% correct. but do i have a problem with that? no. what i do it again if i was desperate? yes. and if! what i do it again if i was desperate? yes. and if i saw some real stealing i would assume they were doing it because frankly the price of everything, even supermarkets have been raising prices far more than inflation, people are losing theirjobs left, right and centre, bossesjust people are losing theirjobs left, right and centre, bosses just do people are losing theirjobs left, right and centre, bossesjust do not pay enough. as a country we

subsidise big bosses' wages so corporations get away with paying as less and less so no, you could call me what he wanted to. i really wouldn't care, as far as i'm concerned i'm very proud i raised my son, he's never gone hungry, we have never been cold, we have never been homeless and for people who are in that position, all power to you because these times are bloody hard and you've just got to do what you've got to do.— and you've just got to do what you've got to do. lucy, do you want to tuickl you've got to do. lucy, do you want to quickly come _ you've got to do. lucy, do you want to quickly come back _ you've got to do. lucy, do you want to quickly come back on _ you've got to do. lucy, do you want to quickly come back on that? - you've got to do. lucy, do you want to quickly come back on that? that| to quickly come back on that? that wasn't my quote — to quickly come back on that? that wasn't my quote specifically but... sorry. _ wasn't my quote specifically but... sorry. it _ wasn't my quote specifically but... sorry, it wasn't lucy, i beg your pardon, it was maxine. my apologies. maxine, come back on that, maxine fraser. i maxine, come back on that, maxine fraser. . ., , ., ., fraser. i hear what you are saying, sall . but fraser. i hear what you are saying, sally- but i — fraser. i hear what you are saying, sally. but i think _ fraser. i hear what you are saying, sally. but i think maybe _ fraser. i hear what you are saying, sally. but i think maybe it's - sally. but i think maybe it's because _ sally. but i think maybe it's because the industry that i work in, i would _ because the industry that i work in, i would look— because the industry that i work in, i would look at that as totally different, and i totally understand. i was _ different, and i totally understand. i was a _ different, and i totally understand. i was a single parent myself and i had three — i was a single parent myself and i had three jobs for many years but i never—

had three jobs for many years but i never stole — had three jobs for many years but i never stole anything i didn't have any support at all from anybody. so you are _ any support at all from anybody. so you are very — any support at all from anybody. so you are very lucky. however, it is what _ you are very lucky. however, it is what it _ you are very lucky. however, it is what it is — you are very lucky. however, it is what it is. and you know, it is totally — what it is. and you know, it is totally up _ what it is. and you know, it is totally up to you how you feel about that. and _ totally up to you how you feel about that. and i— totally up to you how you feel about that. and i can also assure you that i'm certainly— that. and i can also assure you that i'm certainly not a high—paid person. _ i'm certainly not a high—paid person, ceo sitting at the top of a company. — person, ceo sitting at the top of a company, we are a crime partnership and a _ company, we are a crime partnership and a not—for—profit one. thanks. some _ and a not—for—profit one. thanks. some texts— and a not—for—profit one. thanks. some texts coming in. do not say my name. i worked some texts coming in. do not say my name. iworked in some texts coming in. do not say my name. i worked in a discount store, we were encouraged to put security cameras up in the store. zero budget for security. the last time i went to sainsbury�*s i saw people walk out with full trolleys, even for an approach they carried on and ordered the course directly in front of security. this one worked in retail for over 15 years, have seen shoplifters take note of managers

names for their name badges and follow them to the course after the store was closed. i have been threatened with violence, from my experience colleagues are not protected enough. i worked in security, i was removed because store sells did not merit security. thank you all so much. maxine, and lucy, i am so sorry for the name model. listen a brand director of security atjohn lewis, maxine, director of retailers against crime and torn, director of the british retail consortium. as well as all other colours. shoplifters, no excuse? more to come. and here the news from bethan thank

you. rishi sunak is to announce tighter controls on university admissions in england, warning too many applicants are being sold a "false dream". under the plan universities will be forced to limit the number of students recruited onto courses deemed to be "poor quality" and degrees that often fail to lead to professionaljobs. labour has called the move an attack on the aspirations of young people. we'll later hear the results of a clinical trial of a new dementia drug donanemab which is showing positive signs it can slow the pace of alzheimer's by about a third in the early stages of the disease. a conference is being held in the netherlands this afternoon. two people have died during what's been called an "emergency" on the bridge linking the annexed crimea peninsula to southern russia. russian officials say those killed were from the same family. a source in ukraine's security service has told bbc russian it was behind the attack. southern europe will experience one of the most intense heatwaves on record this week. over the next few days sicily and sardinia

could reach temperatures of 48 degrees. those were the news headlines — with the sport, here's john bennett. thank you. england have recalled james anderson for the fourth ashes test at old trafford, in place of ollie robinson. the must—win test for england gets underway in manchester on wednesday with the series poised at 21 in australia's favour. novak djokovic says he can see some of the best qualities of roger federer, rafael nadal and his own game in the new wimbledon men's champion carlos alcaraz. djokovic lost to 20—year—old alcaraz in a thrilling five—set final, his first defeat on centre court for ten years. meanwhile, the women's champion marketa vondrousova has entered the wta top ten for the first time in her career today. elsewhere, thousands of mls fans attended the official presentation of lionel messi as an inter miami player. leeds united midfielder marc roca has joined real betis on loan. manchester united are on the brink of completing the signing of inter milan goalkeeper andre onana. and rory mcilroy says his win at the scottish open this weekend is a "huge confidence boost"

going into open championship good morning. it is the nation's phonein good morning. it is the nation's phone in and shoplifting rates are

soaring. we discussed universities earlier. rishi sunak said there were too many rip—off degrees, and it was a lively discussion, with listening to again or watching back. this is an element of university education, the fact of the case when the 500,000 graduates have been affected by the marking boycott. it involves appear to skip them a dispute between the university union and employers. i would between the university union and employers. iwould not between the university union and employers. i would not normally share our family what's but this is justin. just my daughter, i have to inform you regrettably there are too many marks missing for your problems to be fully graded. as explained in or e—mail of the 25th ofjune you will be allowed to progress to next year and a complete result will be provided once marks are available. it mark on a late marked assessment will not affect your right to continue on the course and you will

not be required to take a retake assessment. that is happening to an awful lot of kids at the moment and others. we talking shoplifting. joe is in kent. good morning. you have worked in retail? and ranjan, it is good to have you with us. joe, you have had a lot of brilliant moments. i worked in retail security for ten years and the level of aggression in recent years is astounding. i have had a frozen chicken smashed into my temple which caused mild concussion, i have been run out with a car, had a knife pulled on me, being a victim of various verbal assaults and physical altercations. almost at least weekly if not more often than not. it is very dangerous. when i am

in the street with my family, a week later, i have to interact with these people so i have never switched off. i see people. i see them and i've got to be on the defensive, reactionary. i'm to try and keep my family safe when i am out and about in town. and i see these people. they shoplift. it is an epidemic. {lit they shoplift. it is an epidemic. of recent times. what is the training? you see someone filling their boots, the trolley, what are you meant to do, what is best practice? if gale do, what is best practice? if we have seen _ do, what is best practice? if we have seen shoplifting _ do, what is best practice? if we have seen shoplifting have - do, what is best practice? if "id'éi have seen shoplifting have to select it, conceal it, and we observe them from a exit, selection, concealment and so on. once we are satisfied

that criteria, we are authorised to intercept at the exit and challenge them on what they have not bought and what they have stolen. but recently, the guidance has changed. they don't want us to intercept people as much any more because it causes a scene, it is bad for business and there's been a lot of violence as i have mentioned of recent times. i violence as i have mentioned of recent times.— recent times. i am 'ust writing about t recent times. i am 'ust writing about one down, _ recent times. i am just writing about one down, so _ recent times. i am just writing about one down, so i - recent times. i am just writing about one down, so i don't . recent times. i am just writing - about one down, so i don't forget, they don't want you to intercept people so much these days because it might mean violence and causes a scene, because a scene and bad for business. some people would think thatis business. some people would think that is outrageous? it is business. some people would think that is outrageous?— that is outrageous? it is but i have been to court _ that is outrageous? it is but i have been to court numerous _ that is outrageous? it is but i have been to court numerous times - that is outrageous? it is but i have been to court numerous times and very little happens. i have been to court, the one with the turkey or chicken smashed into my temple, it

went to court. nothing happened. they were given a ban from the store which they did not follow anyway so it was all for nothing. it was all pointless. and so i guess the idea is let them do it, stop the less committed ones, if you can but if it gets a bit aggravated let them go. ranjan, i will be with you bachchan and hastings has got in touch. you worked in security at a supermarket, you hear those points? i worked in security at a supermarket, you hear those points?— you hear those points? i have and i atree you hear those points? i have and i aaree but you hear those points? i have and i agree but the _ you hear those points? i have and i agree but the thing _ you hear those points? i have and i agree but the thing i _ you hear those points? i have and i agree but the thing i was _ you hear those points? i have and i agree but the thing i was saying, i | agree but the thing i was saying, i was there — agree but the thing i was saying, i was there for over six years and some _ was there for over six years and some of— was there for over six years and some of the daily abuse and verbal abuse _ some of the daily abuse and verbal abuse yes— some of the daily abuse and verbal abuse yes to get from customers, i cannot— abuse yes to get from customers, i cannot say— abuse yes to get from customers, i cannot say it — abuse yes to get from customers, i cannot say it on air. it affected

you. _ cannot say it on air. it affected you. there _ cannot say it on air. it affected you, there will be used to work. but going _ you, there will be used to work. but going back— you, there will be used to work. but going back to what the young man said. _ going back to what the young man said. they— going back to what the young man said. they blatantly took stuff in front _ said. they blatantly took stuff in front of— said. they blatantly took stuff in front of you. they were just pushing you out _ front of you. they were just pushing you out of— front of you. they were just pushing you out of the way to get out of the door. _ you out of the way to get out of the door. it _ you out of the way to get out of the door. it was — you out of the way to get out of the door. it was nonstop and when we had the pandemic we had a memo to say we could not— the pandemic we had a memo to say we could not touch anybody, just let them _ could not touch anybody, just let them come in, lift up their shirt, put the _ them come in, lift up their shirt, put the stuff down and work out of the shop. — put the stuff down and work out of the sho.�* , ., put the stuff down and work out of thesho.�* , ., ., the shop. because of the risk of infection? _ the shop. because of the risk of infection? absolutely. - the shop. because of the risk of infection? absolutely. it- the shop. because of the risk of infection? absolutely. it was . the shop. because of the risk of| infection? absolutely. it was like the could infection? absolutely. it was like they could walk, _ infection? absolutely. it was like they could walk, even _ infection? absolutely. it was like they could walk, even before - infection? absolutely. it was like they could walk, even before or. they could walk, even before or after _ they could walk, even before or after the — they could walk, even before or after the pandemic, they used to come _ after the pandemic, they used to come in — after the pandemic, they used to come in but most of the time they used _ come in but most of the time they used to— come in but most of the time they used to sell the stuff because i lived _ used to sell the stuff because i lived in — used to sell the stuff because i lived in the town. and you know the dru- lived in the town. and you know the drug dealers and everything and they used to— drug dealers and everything and they used to go— drug dealers and everything and they used to go down to the local pubs, so the _ used to go down to the local pubs, so the meat, get their bags of stuff for two _ so the meat, get their bags of stuff for two quid or three quid and it was constant every day. it was just nonstop _ was constant every day. it was just nonstop but — was constant every day. it was just nonstop but the verbal abuse was outrageous, really. and that... go

on, outrageous, really. and that... on, bringing outrageous, really. and that... (it? on, bringingjoe back in. completely on, bringing joe back in. completely agree, the level of aggression is massive. i have left security in recent years. i still feel- massive. i have left security in recent years. i still feel loss of sound sometimes when i see altercations on the television. and i have dealt with that daily and had been shut down, it affect your mental health, it brings you down. being switched on all the time, i still see the regular shoplift this and about and i have to kind of manage that in my daily life. for instance was in a restaurant and they were sitting at another table on the other side of the restaurant. i would have to leave because i have been the victim of crime. i walked out of the shop at the end of the night, locking up and someone ran at

me with a car because i had caught them shoplifting earlier in the day. i had to dive between two parked cars to avoid it. i have been followed home, it doesn't stop, it is a very dangerous job. there is very little respect. the penny has been eroded. barely any extra for anyone else in the shop, the extra danger of money that i experience and have to put up with on the streets. outside my working hours. listen, let me ask you both. what is the situation in your mindset? obviously, there's people you're talking about who are involved in organised retail crime, a lot of them or nicking stuff to fund a drug habit or whatever. do you, calpol is the kind of watchword, don't you look upon a mother who are slipping

a bottle of copil into her pocket and stealthily walking out of the store, do that differently? personally, i would say yes, if i had spoken to her. i only had six years had an instance where a young man came into the shop and i caught him stealing sandwiches and he said to me he'd been on the street for three or four weeks and haven't had anything to eat, couldn't get stuff and i thought he was going to cry and i thought he was going to cry and i thought he was going to cry and i said to him, went there. a lot of my own money i build up a bag of stuff, gave it to him, i never saw him again and all the time i was in the shop. it depends on the situation, when you see things. most of the time for me it was local people. as the last caller said, you see them in the town, you see them everyday, they know and they call

him names. it isjust never ending and it never ending. for me, one night when somebody tried to stab me, that was it, i went on to the family and i was not going to work on security any more and i left. ranjan isjoining us from leeds. good morning. ranjan is joining us from leeds. good morning._ ranjan is joining us from leeds. good morning. young worked in retail, good morning. young worked in retail. what _ good morning. young worked in retail, what did _ good morning. young worked in retail, what did you _ good morning. young worked in retail, what did you see? - good morning. young worked in retail, what did you see? i - good morning. young worked in retail, what did you see? i have | retail, what did you see? i have worked in _ retail, what did you see? i have worked in retail— retail, what did you see? i have worked in retail for _ retail, what did you see? i have worked in retail for the - retail, what did you see? i have worked in retail for the last - retail, what did you see? i have worked in retail for the last 16 i worked in retail for the last 16 years. — worked in retail for the last 16 years. i— worked in retail for the last 16 years. i have _ worked in retail for the last 16 years, i have seen _ worked in retail for the last 16 years, i have seen thousandsl worked in retail for the last 16 . years, i have seen thousands and thousands— years, i have seen thousands and thousands of— years, i have seen thousands and thousands of people _ years, i have seen thousands and thousands of people because - years, i have seen thousands and thousands of people because i. years, i have seen thousands and i thousands of people because i work in the _ thousands of people because i work in the same — thousands of people because i work in the same store _ thousands of people because i work in the same store for— thousands of people because i work in the same store for long - thousands of people because i work in the same store for long so - thousands of people because i work in the same store for long so i - thousands of people because i work in the same store for long so i used to know— in the same store for long so i used to know when — in the same store for long so i used to know when a _ in the same store for long so i used to know when a shoplifter— in the same store for long so i used to know when a shoplifter would - to know when a shoplifter would come in. you _ to know when a shoplifter would come in. you cannot — to know when a shoplifter would come in. you cannot confront, _ to know when a shoplifter would come in. you cannot confront, i— in. you cannot confront, i totally agree _ in. you cannot confront, i totally agree with — in. you cannot confront, i totally agree with joe _ in. you cannot confront, i totally agree with joe and _ in. you cannot confront, i totally agree withjoe and john. - in. you cannot confront, ! totally agree withjoe and john. by- in. you cannot confront, i totally agree withjoe and john. by law, j agree withjoe and john. by law, security— agree withjoe and john. by law, security cannot _ agree withjoe and john. by law, security cannot touch _ agree withjoe and john. by law, security cannot touch them - security cannot touch them until they walk out of _ security cannot touch them until they walk out of the _ security cannot touch them until they walk out of the shop - security cannot touch them until| they walk out of the shop bought security cannot touch them until - they walk out of the shop bought the -ate they walk out of the shop bought the gate and _ they walk out of the shop bought the gate and especially _ they walk out of the shop bought the gate and especially when _ they walk out of the shop bought the gate and especially when covid—19 i gate and especially when covid—19 came. _ gate and especially when covid—19 came. it _ gate and especially when covid—19 came. it was — gate and especially when covid—19 came, it was more _ gate and especially when covid—19 came, it was more strict, - gate and especially when covid—19 came, it was more strict, you - gate and especially when covid—19 . came, it was more strict, you cannot touch— came, it was more strict, you cannot touch anyone. — came, it was more strict, you cannot touch anyone-— came, it was more strict, you cannot touch anyone. you cannot touch them until they walked _

touch anyone. you cannot touch them until they walked out _ touch anyone. you cannot touch them until they walked out of _ touch anyone. you cannot touch them until they walked out of the _ touch anyone. you cannot touch them until they walked out of the store? . until they walked out of the store? how does that work? that until they walked out of the store? how does that work?— how does that work? that is what the law sa s. how does that work? that is what the law says- if — how does that work? that is what the law says- if they _ how does that work? that is what the law says. if they are _ how does that work? that is what the law says. if they are filling _ how does that work? that is what the law says. if they are filling a - how does that work? that is what the law says. if they are filling a bag - law says. if they are filling a bag or basket. — law says. if they are filling a bag or basket. you _ law says. if they are filling a bag or basket, you cannot _ law says. if they are filling a bag or basket, you cannot do - law says. if they are filling a bag i or basket, you cannot do anything but once _ or basket, you cannot do anything but once they _ or basket, you cannot do anything but once they step _ or basket, you cannot do anything but once they step out _ or basket, you cannot do anything but once they step out of- or basket, you cannot do anything but once they step out of the - or basket, you cannot do anything i but once they step out of the gate, without _ but once they step out of the gate, without paying. _ but once they step out of the gate, without paying, then— but once they step out of the gate, without paying, then a _ but once they step out of the gate, without paying, then a security- without paying, then a security guard — without paying, then a security guard or — without paying, then a security guard or anyone _ without paying, then a security guard or anyone can _ without paying, then a security guard or anyone can stop. - without paying, then a security| guard or anyone can stop. then without paying, then a security guard or anyone can stop. then they can let it, guard or anyone can stop. then they can leg it, surely? _ guard or anyone can stop. then they can leg it, surely? yes. _ guard or anyone can stop. then they can leg it, surely? yes. i— guard or anyone can stop. then they can leg it, surely? yes. i have - can leg it, surely? yes. i have worked in _ can leg it, surely? yes. i have worked in any _ can leg it, surely? yes. i have worked in any good _ can leg it, surely? yes. i have worked in any good area - can leg it, surely? yes. i have worked in any good area for. can leg it, surely? yes. i have| worked in any good area for 16 can leg it, surely? yes. i have - worked in any good area for 16 years but most _ worked in any good area for 16 years but most people _ worked in any good area for 16 years but most people in— worked in any good area for 16 years but most people in the _ worked in any good area for 16 years but most people in the pandemic, ii but most people in the pandemic, i have seen— but most people in the pandemic, i have seen people _ but most people in the pandemic, i have seen people come _ but most people in the pandemic, i have seen people come in - but most people in the pandemic, i have seen people come in and - but most people in the pandemic, ii have seen people come in and taking six boxes. _ have seen people come in and taking six boxes. they— have seen people come in and taking six boxes, they took— have seen people come in and taking six boxes, they took from _ have seen people come in and taking six boxes, they took from the - have seen people come in and taking six boxes, they took from the top - six boxes, they took from the top shelf. _ six boxes, they took from the top shelf. the — six boxes, they took from the top shelf. the taxi _ six boxes, they took from the top shelf. the taxi was _ six boxes, they took from the top shelf. the taxi was waiting. - six boxes, they took from the top shelf. the taxi was waiting. she i shelf. the taxi was waiting. she walked — shelf. the taxi was waiting. she walked out— shelf. the taxi was waiting. she walked out and _ shelf. the taxi was waiting. she walked out and i— shelf. the taxi was waiting. she walked out and i saw— shelf. the taxi was waiting. she walked out and i saw from - shelf. the taxi was waiting. she walked out and i saw from the i walked out and i saw from the checkout. _ walked out and i saw from the checkout, ran, _ walked out and i saw from the checkout, ran, sat— walked out and i saw from the checkout, ran, sat down - walked out and i saw from the checkout, ran, sat down in - walked out and i saw from the checkout, ran, sat down in a i walked out and i saw from the . checkout, ran, sat down in a taxi and gone — checkout, ran, sat down in a taxi and gone but _ checkout, ran, sat down in a taxi and gone but once _ checkout, ran, sat down in a taxi and gone but once they- checkout, ran, sat down in a taxi and gone but once they are - checkout, ran, sat down in a taxi and gone but once they are out, | checkout, ran, sat down in a taxi - and gone but once they are out, you are not— and gone but once they are out, you are not supposed _ and gone but once they are out, you are not supposed to _ and gone but once they are out, you are not supposed to touch _ and gone but once they are out, you are not supposed to touch them. - and gone but once they are out, you are not supposed to touch them. i i and gone but once they are out, you| are not supposed to touch them. i do not know— are not supposed to touch them. i do not know what — are not supposed to touch them. i do not know what the _ are not supposed to touch them. i do not know what the law _ are not supposed to touch them. i do not know what the law says, - not know what the law says, actually. _ not know what the law says, actually. but _ not know what the law says, actually. but we _ not know what the law says, actually. but we are - not know what the law says, actually. but we are not - not know what the law says, - actually. but we are not supposed to chase. _ actually. but we are not supposed to chase. i_ actually. but we are not supposed to chase. iwork—

actually. but we are not supposed to chase. i work in _ actually. but we are not supposed to chase. i work in a _ actually. but we are not supposed to chase. i work in a store, _ actually. but we are not supposed to chase. i work in a store, it _ actually. but we are not supposed to chase. i work in a store, it is - chase. ! work in a store, it is strictly— chase. ! work in a store, it is strictly below— chase. i work in a store, it is strictly below and _ chase. i work in a store, it is strictly below and we - chase. i work in a store, it is strictly below and we cannot| chase. i work in a store, it is - strictly below and we cannot chase them _ strictly below and we cannot chase them from — strictly below and we cannot chase them from the _ strictly below and we cannot chase them from the building. _ strictly below and we cannot chase them from the building. you - strictly below and we cannot chasei them from the building. you cannot do anything — them from the building. you cannot do anything inside _ them from the building. you cannot do anything inside the _ them from the building. you cannot do anything inside the building - do anything inside the building because — do anything inside the building because you _ do anything inside the building because you do _ do anything inside the building because you do not _ do anything inside the building because you do not know, - do anything inside the building| because you do not know, they do anything inside the building - because you do not know, they go and p5y~ because you do not know, they go and -a . because you do not know, they go and .a _ , ., ., because you do not know, they go and pay. there is another one coming in, ran'an, pay. there is another one coming in, ranjan. john — pay. there is another one coming in, ranjan. john and _ pay. there is another one coming in, ranjan, john and joe. _ pay. there is another one coming in, ranjan, john and joe. i _ pay. there is another one coming in, ranjan, john and joe. i am _ pay. there is another one coming in, ranjan, john and joe. i am a - pay. there is another one coming in, ranjan, john and joe. i am a retired | ranjan, john and joe. i am a retired security officer in the balance used to prevent the rest is ridiculous. i had a night presented at me from a young person trying to steal a cheap bottle of alcohol, i read that at or from a young person trying to steal a cheap bottle of alcohol, i read that out earlier from in aberdeen but it was worth reading out again. matthew hunt, good morning. three guys matthew hunt, good morning. three guys who have been at the sharp end. absolutely terrifying, not enough being done. absolutely terrifying, not enough being done-— being done. what a 'ob! the testimonies - being done. what a 'ob! the testimonies i - being done. what a 'ob! the testimonies i heard - being done. what a job! the | testimonies i heard resonate being done. what a job! the - testimonies i heard resonate with me very loudly and clearly. it is such a depressing state we are in at the moment. you have laws that almost protect the offender. you have a policing system that does not seem

interested in tackling the problem and you are starting to see societal attitudes which creates excuses for theft and shoplifting. so we are getting into a spiral condition and it is becoming really difficult to manage the situation so it's quite bleak at the moment. bind manage the situation so it's quite bleak at the moment.— bleak at the moment. and it's taettin bleak at the moment. and it's getting worse _ bleak at the moment. and it's getting worse and _ bleak at the moment. and it's getting worse and worse - bleak at the moment. and it's getting worse and worse and i bleak at the moment. and it's - getting worse and worse and worse. a lot of security guys are saying they feel their hands are tied, they cannot do enough on the violence they are facing is unspeakable. the le . al they are facing is unspeakable. tle: legal system requires that there is what's available for everyone involved and less including the staff and the offender. there are limits to what you can do and the descriptions you've heard from the previous caller are all exactly right. they have the experience, they know what they are talking about so what can you do? how do you protect your business? and what is the impact if you cannot protect your business? what is the impact of

that behaviour? unfortunately that is price rises because someone has to pay for this. but is price rises because someone has to pay forthis— to pay for this. but everybody else will. do to pay for this. but everybody else will- do you _ to pay for this. but everybody else will. do you see _ to pay for this. but everybody else will. do you see a _ to pay for this. but everybody else will. do you see a difference - will. do you see a difference between someone stealing to feed their family and someone stealing to flog it on and make a packet, is there a difference? i flog it on and make a packet, is there a difference?— flog it on and make a packet, is there a difference? i would not be human if you _ there a difference? i would not be human if you did _ there a difference? i would not be human if you did not _ there a difference? i would not be human if you did not see - there a difference? i would not be human if you did not see that, - there a difference? i would not be i human if you did not see that, there is a reality but the difficult thing is a reality but the difficult thing is making the difference. what is the solution? can you treat someone differently when presented with a differently when presented with a different set of circumstances? it is very difficult today. if you don't go down that road, you could find yourself with a reputation for being soft. and no doubt, some will abuse that so you open yourself up to a huge problem if you do go that way. to a huge problem if you do go that wa . , to a huge problem if you do go that wa . y . ., to a huge problem if you do go that wa . , . ., ., to a huge problem if you do go that wa , , . ., ., ~ way. cheney, could morning. we started talking _ way. cheney, could morning. we started talking to _ way. cheney, could morning. we started talking to sally. -

way. cheney, could morning. we started talking to sally. i - way. cheney, could morning. we started talking to sally. i sent. way. cheney, could morning. we started talking to sally. i sent a i started talking to sally. i sent a text on and _ started talking to sally. i sent a text on and l — started talking to sally. i sent a text on and i ended _ started talking to sally. i sent a text on and i ended up - started talking to sally. i sent a| text on and i ended up speaking started talking to sally. i sent a . text on and i ended up speaking to you! text on and i ended up speaking to ou!, , text on and i ended up speaking to ou! , . .. text on and i ended up speaking to ou! , ., ~ ., text on and i ended up speaking to ou! , ., ., ., you! jenny, thank you for coming on. it is so good — you! jenny, thank you for coming on. it is so good you _ you! jenny, thank you for coming on. it is so good you have. _ you! jenny, thank you for coming on. it is so good you have. i _ you! jenny, thank you for coming on. it is so good you have. i think - you! jenny, thank you for coming on. it is so good you have. i think you . it is so good you have. i think you have an interesting perception on this, given your own experience? tell me more. i only did it once. i was married — tell me more. i only did it once. i was married to a violent, possessive alcoholic _ was married to a violent, possessive alcoholic and he kept me short of money— alcoholic and he kept me short of money and — alcoholic and he kept me short of money and i could not by the lovely things— money and i could not by the lovely things i_ money and i could not by the lovely things i wanted to get for my children. _ things i wanted to get for my children. i was walking around the shop _ children. i was walking around the shop and — children. i was walking around the shop and i— children. i was walking around the shop and i saw this lovely cardigan and i_ shop and i saw this lovely cardigan and i thought, i want that. i shop and i saw this lovely cardigan and i thought, iwant that. i put shop and i saw this lovely cardigan and i thought, i want that. i put it in my— and i thought, i want that. i put it in my back. — and i thought, i want that. i put it in my back. i— and i thought, i want that. i put it in my back, i walked out of the shop. — in my back, i walked out of the shop. i— in my back, i walked out of the shop, i thought someone would follow me, they— shop, i thought someone would follow me, they did not. and then i was so ashamed _ me, they did not. and then i was so ashamed i_ me, they did not. and then i was so ashamed ijust did not even go back in the _ ashamed ijust did not even go back in the shop — ashamed ijust did not even go back in the shop for a couple of years because — in the shop for a couple of years because i— in the shop for a couple of years because i thought, that is her! so, i would _ because i thought, that is her! so, i would never, because i thought, that is her! so,

iwould never, ever... it is interesting _ iwould never, ever... it is interesting how _ iwould never, ever... it is interesting how you - iwould never, ever... it is interesting how you felt, i iwould never, ever... it isj interesting how you felt, it iwould never, ever... it 3 interesting how you felt, it could have been a cry for help, you could have been a cry for help, you could have been a cry for help, you could have been depressed. i have been a cry for help, you could have been depressed.— have been a cry for help, you could have been depressed. i was so, you know, all these _ have been depressed. i was so, you know, all these mothers— have been depressed. i was so, you know, all these mothers who - have been depressed. i was so, you| know, all these mothers who bought lovely— know, all these mothers who bought lovely things for the children and that is— lovely things for the children and that is why i did it but never again. — that is why i did it but never again. when was this? any again. when was this? pardon? any tood a few again. when was this? pardon? any good a few years — again. when was this? pardon? any good a few years ago? _ again. when was this? pardon? any good a few years ago? probably - again. when was this? pardon? any| good a few years ago? probably back in the _ good a few years ago? probably back in the 80s— good a few years ago? probably back in the 80s but i still remember it and the _ in the 80s but i still remember it and the shame i felt doing it. how interesting- _ and the shame i felt doing it. how interesting. the _ and the shame i felt doing it. firm-o" interesting. the feeling of shame, tell me more and how that made you feel. it tell me more and how that made you feel. . .. .. feel. it made me think, i felt like a criminal— feel. it made me think, i felt like a criminal because _ feel. it made me think, i felt like a criminal because i _ feel. it made me think, i felt like a criminal because i broke - feel. it made me think, i felt like a criminal because i broke the . feel. it made me think, i felt like i a criminal because i broke the law, i knew— a criminal because i broke the law, i knew it _ a criminal because i broke the law, i knew it was — a criminal because i broke the law, i knew it was wrong. very wrong. so that is— i knew it was wrong. very wrong. so that is why— i knew it was wrong. very wrong. so that is why i — i knew it was wrong. very wrong. so that is why i would never have done it again. _ that is why i would never have done it again. i— that is why i would never have done it aaain. .. ., that is why i would never have done it aaain. ., . ~ that is why i would never have done itaaain. ., . ~' ,. that is why i would never have done it aaain. ., . ~ ,. ., it again. i cannot thank you enough for taettin it again. i cannot thank you enough for getting in _ it again. i cannot thank you enough for getting in touch, _ it again. i cannot thank you enough for getting in touch, really - it again. i cannot thank you enough for getting in touch, really good . for getting in touch, really good that you did. it is that line, i felt like a criminal. very powerful.

yes, yes, i wanted to put the point over. _ yes, yes, i wanted to put the point over. �* , ., , ., , over. i'm 'ust did it really, really well. over. i'mjust did it really, really well- thank _ over. i'mjust did it really, really well. thank you. _ over. i'mjust did it really, really well. thank you. once _ over. i'mjust did it really, really well. thank you. once in - over. i'mjust did it really, really| well. thank you. once in bristol, could morning. have you seen a lot of it? ., , , of it? our local high street is rife. i of it? our local high street is rife- i had — of it? our local high street is rife. i had an _ of it? our local high street is rife. i had an experience - of it? our local high street is rife. i had an experience i . of it? our local high street is i rife. i had an experience i went of it? our local high street is - rife. i had an experience i went on to the _ rife. i had an experience i went on to the local— rife. i had an experience i went on to the local chemist. _ rife. i had an experience i went on to the local chemist. another- to the local chemist. another customer— to the local chemist. another customer had _ to the local chemist. another customer had reported - to the local chemist. another. customer had reported another customer— customer had reported another customer for— customer had reported another customer for filling _ customer had reported another customer for filling her- customer had reported another customer for filling her back i customer had reported anotheri customer for filling her back and she was— customer for filling her back and she was actually— customer for filling her back and she was actually there _ customer for filling her back and she was actually there with - customer for filling her back and she was actually there with her. she was actually there with her teenage — she was actually there with her teenage daughters. _ she was actually there with her teenage daughters. and - she was actually there with her teenage daughters. and it - she was actually there with her. teenage daughters. and it wasn't 'ust teenage daughters. and it wasn't just tampons _ teenage daughters. and it wasn't just tampons or _ teenage daughters. and it wasn't just tampons or things _ teenage daughters. and it wasn't just tampons or things you - teenage daughters. and it wasn't just tampons or things you could| just tampons or things you could understand, _ just tampons or things you could understand, it _ just tampons or things you could understand, it was _ just tampons or things you could understand, it was banks - just tampons or things you could understand, it was banks and . just tampons or things you could i understand, it was banks and banks and expensive — understand, it was banks and banks and expensive items. _ understand, it was banks and banks and expensive items. but _ understand, it was banks and banks and expensive items. but it- understand, it was banks and banks and expensive items. but it was- understand, it was banks and banks and expensive items. but it was the aggression — and expensive items. but it was the aggression that _ and expensive items. but it was the aggression. that came _ and expensive items. but it was the aggression. that came out- and expensive items. but it was the aggression. that came out of- and expensive items. but it was thej aggression. that came out of them. that was— aggression. that came out of them. that was realty— aggression. that came out of them. that was really quite _ aggression. that came out of them. that was really quite frightening - that was really quite frightening because — that was really quite frightening because i— that was really quite frightening because i was _ that was really quite frightening because i was standing - that was really quite frightening because i was standing there . because i was standing there thinkingm _ because i was standing there thinking... might— because i was standing there thinking... might manual- because i was standing there | thinking... might manual son because i was standing there - thinking... might manual son was terrified~ — thinking... might manual son was terrified~ he — thinking... might manual son was terrified. he heard _ thinking... might manual son was terrified. he heard words- thinking... might manual son was terrified. he heard words he - thinking... might manual son was. terrified. he heard words he hadn't even _ terrified. he heard words he hadn't even heard — terrified. he heard words he hadn't even heard from _ terrified. he heard words he hadn't even heard from me _ terrified. he heard words he hadn't even heard from me and _ terrified. he heard words he hadn't even heard from me and it- terrified. he heard words he hadn't even heard from me and it was- terrified. he heard words he hadn't. even heard from me and it was quite a horrible _ even heard from me and it was quite

a horrible experience. _ a horrible experience. laughter_ a horrible experience. laughter. _ laughter. learn what he hasn't even heard for me! that is a phrase. a mother and two of her daughters, you say? it} or two of her daughters, you say? 15 or 16. and two of her daughters, you say? 15 or 16- and the — two of her daughters, you say? 15 or 16. and the mother. _ two of her daughters, you say? 15 or 16. and the mother. and it was vile and violent — 16. and the mother. and it was vile and violent. and _ 16. and the mother. and it was vile and violent. and the _ 16. and the mother. and it was vile and violent. and the staffjust - and violent. and the staffjust backed — and violent. and the staffjust backed down, _ and violent. and the staffjust backed down, they— and violent. and the staffjust backed down, they did - and violent. and the staffjust backed down, they did not- and violent. and the staffjust| backed down, they did not call and violent. and the staffjust - backed down, they did not call the police _ backed down, they did not call the police. thev— backed down, they did not call the police. theviust_ backed down, they did not call the police. theyjust kind _ backed down, they did not call the police. theyjust kind of— backed down, they did not call the police. theyjust kind of let- backed down, they did not call the police. theyjust kind of let it - police. theyjust kind of let it happen _ police. theyjust kind of let it happen. we _ police. theyjust kind of let it happen. we have _ police. theyjust kind of let it happen. we have got- police. theyjust kind of let itj happen. we have got another police. theyjust kind of let it - happen. we have got another shop on the high _ happen. we have got another shop on the high street — happen. we have got another shop on the high street. that— happen. we have got another shop on the high street. that has— happen. we have got another shop on the high street. that has been- the high street. that has been targeted — the high street. that has been targeted on _ the high street. that has been targeted on so _ the high street. that has been targeted on so many- the high street. that has been. targeted on so many occasions. the high street. that has been- targeted on so many occasions. and the staff— targeted on so many occasions. and the staff have — targeted on so many occasions. and the staff have been _ targeted on so many occasions. and the staff have been injured - targeted on so many occasions. and the staff have been injured when - the staff have been injured when they have — the staff have been injured when they have intervened _ the staff have been injured when they have intervened but - the staff have been injured when they have intervened but they. the staff have been injured when . they have intervened but they have been told _ they have intervened but they have been told if — they have intervened but they have been told if you _ they have intervened but they have been told if you think _ they have intervened but they have been told if you think it _ they have intervened but they have been told if you think it is - they have intervened but they have been told if you think it is under. been told if you think it is under £50 just — been told if you think it is under £50 just tet— been told if you think it is under £50 just let them _ been told if you think it is under £50 just let them walk - been told if you think it is under £50 just let them walk out - been told if you think it is under £50 just let them walk out with| been told if you think it is under. £50 just let them walk out with it. shocking, — £50 just let them walk out with it. shocking, isn't— £50 just let them walk out with it. shocking, isn't it? _ £50 just let them walk out with it. shocking, isn't it? it— £50 just let them walk out with it. shocking, isn't it? it is, _ £50 just let them walk out with it. shocking, isn't it? it is, it- £50 just let them walk out with it. shocking, isn't it? it is, it is. - shocking, isn't it? it is, it is. there is an old man who goes on with a shopping _ there is an old man who goes on with a shopping trolley— there is an old man who goes on with a shopping trolley and _ there is an old man who goes on with a shopping trolley and fills _ there is an old man who goes on with a shopping trolley and fills it - there is an old man who goes on with a shopping trolley and fills it up - a shopping trolley and fills it up with one — a shopping trolley and fills it up with one they— a shopping trolley and fills it up with one. they only—

a shopping trolley and fills it up with one. they only have - a shopping trolley and fills it up with one. they only have and l a shopping trolley and fills it up i with one. they only have and this a shopping trolley and fills it up - with one. they only have and this is quite _ with one. they only have and this is quite a _ with one. they only have and this is quite a well— known _ with one. they only have and this is quite a well—known brand, - with one. they only have and this is quite a well—known brand, i- with one. they only have and this is quite a well—known brand, i will - with one. they only have and this isj quite a well— known brand, i will not say it. _ quite a well— known brand, i will not say it. they — quite a well— known brand, i will not say it. they have _ quite a well— known brand, i will not say it, they have one _ quite a well— known brand, i will not say it, they have one stake - quite a well— known brand, i will not say it, they have one stake in - quite a well— known brand, i will not say it, they have one stake in the l say it, they have one stake in the fridge _ say it, they have one stake in the fridge at— say it, they have one stake in the fridge at one _ say it, they have one stake in the fridge at one time _ say it, they have one stake in the fridge at one time and _ say it, they have one stake in the fridge at one time and you - say it, they have one stake in the fridge at one time and you have i say it, they have one stake in thel fridge at one time and you have to ask for— fridge at one time and you have to ask for them — fridge at one time and you have to ask for them to _ fridge at one time and you have to ask for them to get _ fridge at one time and you have to ask for them to get another - fridge at one time and you have to ask for them to get another one i fridge at one time and you have to. ask for them to get another one out of the _ ask for them to get another one out of the back— ask for them to get another one out of the back because _ ask for them to get another one out of the back because they— ask for them to get another one out of the back because theyjust - ask for them to get another one out of the back because theyjust get i of the back because theyjust get stoten _ of the back because theyjust get stoten so — of the back because theyjust get stolen so much. _ of the back because theyjust get stolen so much. [it— of the back because theyjust get stolen so much. [it is— of the back because they 'ust get stolen so muchfi stolen so much. it is like razor blades. stolen so much. it is like razor blades it _ stolen so much. it is like razor blades it is — stolen so much. it is like razor blades. it is like _ stolen so much. it is like razor blades. it is like razor- stolen so much. it is like razor blades. it is like razor blades, | blades. it is like razor blades, they are always behind the counter in my experience.— in my experience. exactly. and cheese. in my experience. exactly. and cheese- and — in my experience. exactly. and cheese. and people _ in my experience. exactly. and cheese. and people still - in my experience. exactly. and cheese. and people still to - in my experience. exactly. and i cheese. and people still to order. do they? — cheese. and people still to order. do they? yes. _ cheese. and people still to order. do they? yes, absolutely. - cheese. and people still to order. do they? yes, absolutely. it - cheese. and people still to order. do they? yes, absolutely. it is i do they? yes, absolutely. it is quite _ do they? yes, absolutely. it is quite ctever~ _ do they? yes, absolutely. it is quite clever. in— do they? yes, absolutely. it is quite clever. in some - do they? yes, absolutely. it is quite clever. in some areas . do they? yes, absolutely. it is - quite clever. in some areas people will go _ quite clever. in some areas people will go in _ quite clever. in some areas people will go in and — quite clever. in some areas people will go in and steal, _ quite clever. in some areas people will go in and steal, it— quite clever. in some areas people will go in and steal, it is— quite clever. in some areas people will go in and steal, it is cheaper. will go in and steal, it is cheaper because — will go in and steal, it is cheaper because you _ will go in and steal, it is cheaper because you can _ will go in and steal, it is cheaper because you can buy— will go in and steal, it is cheaper because you can buy it _ will go in and steal, it is cheaper because you can buy it when - will go in and steal, it is cheaper because you can buy it when it . will go in and steal, it is cheaper. because you can buy it when it has been _ because you can buy it when it has been stolen — because you can buy it when it has been stolen-— been stolen. that is right. perverse- _ been stolen. that is right. perverse- i— been stolen. that is right. perverse. i want - been stolen. that is right. perverse. i want you - been stolen. that is right. perverse. i want you to i been stolen. that is right. i perverse. i want you to listen to karen, everyone in scarborough. you are a serving police officer and

you're off with stress.- you're off with stress. good morning. — you're off with stress. good morning, what _ you're off with stress. good morning, what happened? l you're off with stress. good i morning, what happened? hello, you're off with stress. (limp. morning, what happened? hello, this was some years back, i was off with work—related stress, i was a detective constable and i went into a well—known discount store with my daughter. as i was going on i saw this woman coming out and clearly she was stealing loads of bottles of alcohol. making no attempt to pay for them. so i apprehended her and told her my colour number and station etc and we had a full—blown fight, i had her in a headlock, then i looked and i was on the floor with her. then mail staff and the manager isjust a bear watching, my her. then mail staff and the manager is just a bear watching, my daughter came back around, so what was happening and she helped get the woman under control. she tried to bite me, this woman but she bit my daughter. anyway, we managed to get the policing, i had to call them.

and then we caught at my daughter to hospitalfor a tetanus and then we caught at my daughter to hospital for a tetanus and when we got there, this woman was there with the police under arrest and got seen before my daughter! i had a few expletives going on but hey... and she had lots of bottles shoved down her trousers. a person leaves. as well as the ones she was carrying in her arms. well as the ones she was carrying in herarms. but well as the ones she was carrying in her arms. but she did get done. she got convicted of theft and assault of my daughter. got convicted of theft and assault of my daughter-— got convicted of theft and assault of my daughter. what did she do it for? was she _ of my daughter. what did she do it for? was she part _ of my daughter. what did she do it for? was she part of _ of my daughter. what did she do it for? was she part of an _ of my daughter. what did she do it for? was she part of an organised | for? was she part of an organised retail crime... fir for? was she part of an organised retail crime. . ._ for? was she part of an organised retail crime... or what? she does it for dru: retail crime... or what? she does it for drug money. _ retail crime. .. or what? she does it for drug money, sell— retail crime... or what? she does it for drug money, sell it _ retail crime... or what? she does it for drug money, sell it on _ retail crime... or what? she does it for drug money, sell it on so - retail crime... or what? she does it for drug money, sell it on so she i for drug money, sell it on so she can get her drugs. how are you now? i am quite happy, i left the police! it was a challenge. i was not going to let her go or give in. good for

you. their logo, it was a proper, full on fight. i was to be the winner. .., ., full on fight. i was to be the winner. .. full on fight. i was to be the winner. ., i. full on fight. i was to be the winner. ., , ., ., winner. good for you. i hear applause — winner. good for you. i hear applause pp _ winner. good for you. i hear applause pp and _ winner. good for you. i hear applause up and down - winner. good for you. i hear applause up and down the i winner. good for you. i hear i applause up and down the nation. some newsjust in, train drivers or to launch a week long ban on overtime from july the 31st in the long—running pay dispute, aslef has just announced. as left—wing drivers already not working overtime this week, rmt members are set to strike on thursday and saturday. most companies rely on divers working overtime to keep their schedules going. so more on this on bbc news website and the app throughout the day and of course on bbc radio 5 live. so, let me see, i was going to come to... our director of supermarkets, matthew hunt. nice stories, incredible and it seems to

be people cannot do anything to stop this, it is brazen? it is be people cannot do anything to stop this, it is brazen?— this, it is brazen? it is in plain siuht? this, it is brazen? it is in plain sight? it _ this, it is brazen? it is in plain sight? it is — this, it is brazen? it is in plain sight? it is a _ this, it is brazen? it is in plain sight? it is a recurring - this, it is brazen? it is in plainj sight? it is a recurring theme, you're — sight? it is a recurring theme, you're hearing it from your contributors this morning and i think— contributors this morning and i think that _ contributors this morning and i think that has got to bleed back into the — think that has got to bleed back into the attitudes of the police. what _ into the attitudes of the police. what can— into the attitudes of the police. what can you tell? how did they treat— what can you tell? how did they treat it? — what can you tell? how did they treat it? what consequences are available — treat it? what consequences are available for those who choose to the law? — available for those who choose to the law? let available for those who choose to the law? , ., , the law? let me give you this. national police _ the law? let me give you this. national police chiefs - the law? let me give you this. national police chiefs councill national police chiefs council spokesperson says will take reports of retail crime seriously and play an important role in not only tackling offenders but supporting retailers to register shoplifting and a tax on hotel staff. the business national crime syndicate led by the city of london police provide guidance and training to retailers on security with on premises. we have introduced safer business action day springing and retailers together to understand and

tackle local crime issues. additionally, we work as part of the national retail crime steering group alongside government, the british retail consortium and retailers to provide additional support and guidance to tell workers to ensure their safety and reduce the opportunities for theft. presumably, with cctv, you get a lot of these people, they get theirjust deserts, don't they? you people, they get their 'ust deserts, don't the ? ., ,._ people, they get their 'ust deserts, don't the ? ., ., �*, don't they? you say that. there's many excuses — don't they? you say that. there's many excuses police _ don't they? you say that. there's many excuses police can - don't they? you say that. there's many excuses police can use i don't they? you say that. there's many excuses police can use to l don't they? you say that. there's l many excuses police can use to not include _ many excuses police can use to not include the — many excuses police can use to not include the cctv you provide within as the argentine signs for 2 seasons in the sunshine 5 you. as the argentine signs for 2 seasons their investigation. it can about in the sunshine 5 you provide include the cctv you provide within their investigation. it can about their investigation. it can about the quality of the pixelation. the their investigation. it can about the quality of the pixelation. the angle _ the quality of the pixelation. the angle of— the quality of the pixelation. the angle of the faces, lots of things. angle _ the quality of the pixelation. the angle of— the quality of the pixelation. the angle of the faces, lots of things. but there — angle of the faces, lots of things. but there are measures available for but there — angle of the faces, lots of things. but there are measures available for retailers. _ but there are measures available for retailers. i_ retailers. _ but there are measures available for retailers. i_ but there are measures available for retailers, i have not heard of those but there are measures available for retailers, i have not heard of those before _ before _ retailers, i have not heard of those before if— retailers, i have not heard of those before. if they do exist, i would retailers, i have not heard of those before if— retailers, i have not heard of those before. if they do exist, i would encourage — encourage — before. if they do exist, i would encourage them to get themselves before. if they do exist, i would encourage them to get themselves into the _ encourage them to get themselves into the _ encourage them to get themselves into the marketplace and tell us all into the marketplace and tell us all what is _ into the marketplace and tell us all what is going on.— what is _ into the marketplace and tell us all what is going on.—

what is going on. thank you all so much. another _ what is going on. thank you all so much. another _ what is going on. thank you all so much. another amazing _ what is going on. thank you all so i what is going on. thank you all so much. another amazing _ what is going on. thank you all so i much. another amazing programme. much. another amazing programme. thank you for listening. or indeed thank you for listening. or indeed watching! whatever way over watching! whatever way over imbibing, we are back tomorrow at imbibing, we are back tomorrow at 9am. have a good monday! 9am. have a good monday! live from london. live from london. this is bbc news. this is bbc news. russia suspends its participation in the ukraine grain deal — brokered to allow the safe export of grain out of ukraine. the agreement was due to expire on monday. it comes as a source in the ukrainian security service tells the bbc it was behind the attack on a vital bridge linking the crimean peninsula with russia. extreme heats grips europe and the south—west of the united states. lionel messi is presented to fans at inter miami — as the argentine signs for 2 seasons in the sunshine state.