said it is absolutely of mine, said it is absolutely horrendous in there. what should be pearly whites are very often brown and yellow stamps as well and he says a lot of it is down to ignorance. is he right? we've all seen very young children having coke and sugary drinks poured into them by parents, but often in pushchairs, and that is a paternalistic middle class part of me that top tots, what is wrong with water? but it's pretty complicated, where there is poverty there is a cavity and this is austerity, toothbrushes and toothpaste are pricey, 83% of secondary school teachers say they are the school have given students toothbrushes and toothpaste at the same time, the tooth fairy and quality sugar level in mortal combat, a cartoon in that i'm sure. talk to us, nothing judgmental here. kids�* teeth, stopping the rot. get

in touch. here is the news. new figures show inflation fell last month to 7.9 per cent — down from 8.7 per cent in may. the office for national statistics say the drop is partly driven by lower petrol prices. the met police has apologised to the family of private detective daniel morgan, who was murdered in 1987. the force has reached a settlement and admitted liability for failings in its investigation of his death. he�*d been looking into corruption in the met. jaguar land rover—owner — tata — has confirmed plans to build its flagship electric car battery factory in the uk. the new plant in somerset is expected to create 4,000 uk jobs and thousands more in

the wider supply chain. nhs data shows children in some parts of england are waiting up to 18 months for nhs dental work if they need a general anaesthetic. the department of health says work is already underway to improve access to nhs dentistry. imean, at i mean, at the heart of this many people saying our health inequalities it�*s not about being judgmental, but being compassionate and understanding and recognising the struggles many parents are facing to stop and the hidden sugars, that none of us know, none of us realise the amount of sugar in wholemeal, yoghurt, notjust the fruitjuice and coca—cola, it is the

catch up on healthy yoghurt, all that. i told you, the 83% of secondary teachers according to the british dental association have had to hand out toothbrushes and toothpaste, 40% said this leads to students being socially excluded, 25% say children miss school because of poor oral hygiene, nearly a third, 31% of teachers who witness poverty in the classroom say it affects mental health. there are huge consequences to this. when i grew up, we didn�*t kind of know about this stuff so much. i am full of fillings from when i was a kid. sabine in stockport, tells about your daughter. sabine in stockport, tells about your daughter-— sabine in stockport, tells about our dau:hter. ., , ., ., your daughter. hello, she was around three when she _ your daughter. hello, she was around three when she started _ your daughter. hello, she was around three when she started having - your daughter. hello, she was around three when she started having some i three when she started having some pains in her tooth, so we took to

the dentist to find out the cause and they said we will have to refer her because she has won a two decays at the time so the deferral took a long time and then my daughter had a worse pain in her tooth causing her a lot of issues so we had to take her to the emergency dentist a few times but she needs to be under general anaesthetic and they did not have any appointments available for minor children at that point, so at that time she got aggravated symptoms, about one in the half year wait we had to be on, and then she was eight of her teeth extracted, quite a big procedure for her age because she wasjust quite a big procedure for her age because she was just turning for and we were quite anxious as parents and obviously it was not one or two, it ended up being eights, and that was really going through a lot of stress. we have learnt a lot for our

other children about hygiene and keeping them clean, taking them to the dentist regularly. what keeping them clean, taking them to the dentist regularly.— the dentist regularly. what did you not know and _ the dentist regularly. what did you not know and why _ the dentist regularly. what did you not know and why did _ the dentist regularly. what did you not know and why did you - the dentist regularly. what did you not know and why did you not - the dentist regularly. what did you | not know and why did you not know bhoys i not know and why did you not know bho - ~' ., not know and why did you not know bho - ~ ., , ., , bhoys i think more the sugary drinks, bhoys i think more the sugary drinks. we — bhoys i think more the sugary drinks, we were _ bhoys i think more the sugary drinks, we were trying - bhoys i think more the sugary drinks, we were trying to - bhoys i think more the sugary drinks, we were trying to stop bhoys i think more the sugary - drinks, we were trying to stop but getting them properly cleaned afterwards was the main concern, the dentist is raised, or not cleaning properly the teeth after or before, so these were the things that were brought to our attention, but because she has a bit of needs as well, should we were struggling to get proper hygiene with her teeth, thatis get proper hygiene with her teeth, that is the reason. the referral took a lot of time itself, for everything to be sorted out, and the teeth are getting worse.—

teeth are getting worse. obviously it is difficult _ teeth are getting worse. obviously it is difficult with _ teeth are getting worse. obviously it is difficult with some _ teeth are getting worse. obviously it is difficult with some kids - teeth are getting worse. obviously it is difficult with some kids for - it is difficult with some kids for lots of reasons, but did you get her to brush her teeth two or three times a day?— to brush her teeth two or three times a da ? ~ , . times a day? well, she did it twice, mornin: times a day? well, she did it twice, morning and _ times a day? well, she did it twice, morning and evening, _ times a day? well, she did it twice, morning and evening, but - times a day? well, she did it twice, morning and evening, but i - times a day? well, she did it twice, morning and evening, but i think. times a day? well, she did it twice, morning and evening, but i think it| morning and evening, but i think it should have been more than that, due to the fruit shoe and drink she was having which we were not aware could cause such problems. so she needed a bit more. ~ ., cause such problems. so she needed a bit more. ~ . .,, cause such problems. so she needed a bit more. ~ . ., ,, bit more. what drinks was rehabbing from a young — bit more. what drinks was rehabbing from a young age? — bit more. what drinks was rehabbing from a young age? she _ bit more. what drinks was rehabbing from a young age? she was - bit more. what drinks was rehabbing from a young age? she was more . bit more. what drinks was rehabbing l from a young age? she was more into fruit shoots — from a young age? she was more into fruit shoots and _ from a young age? she was more into fruit shoots and yoghurts, _ from a young age? she was more into fruit shoots and yoghurts, having - fruit shoots and yoghurts, having those, tropical yoghurts are normal yoghurts, not really a chocolate fan, so not commies or anything, but those were the main things, fruit shoots and just the yoghurts, to be honest. we did not know that could cause such bad issues.— honest. we did not know that could cause such bad issues. yeah, do you think... cause such bad issues. yeah, do you think- -- it — cause such bad issues. yeah, do you

think--- it is — cause such bad issues. yeah, do you think... it is so — cause such bad issues. yeah, do you think... it is so interesting _ think... it is so interesting talking to you because of what your little girl has been through, do you think this is at the heart of it? people just think this is at the heart of it? peoplejust do think this is at the heart of it? people just do not realise, don�*t fully understand, don�*t... understand the hidden sugars? absolutely, that�*s the core of it, you�*re not aware exactly what is inside, who were sugars in there, we think is a yoghurt but i think cleaning afterwards is very important because it can make a big impact on your child�*s teeth at such a young age, so this is the awareness that i was not given a did not have which i have learned now for my other one and my eldest. what for my other one and my eldest. what was it like for— for my other one and my eldest. what was it like for you _ for my other one and my eldest. what was it like for you as _ for my other one and my eldest. what was it like for you as a _ for my other one and my eldest. what was it like for you as a man looking into her mouth and seeing what was going on? it into her mouth and seeing what was auoin on? . . into her mouth and seeing what was auoin on? ., , into her mouth and seeing what was oaianon? ., , going on? it was really painful, there are times _ going on? it was really painful, there are times when _ going on? it was really painful, there are times when she - going on? it was really painful, there are times when she was l going on? it was really painful, l there are times when she was in going on? it was really painful, i there are times when she was in a lot of pain, crying, not understanding, we were just told

until the appointment comes she needs to have pain relief so she was having either proving and paracetamol but there is nothing much they can do until they have a space to take them out under general anaesthetic so it was a really hard time because i was all the same with dentists and emergency dental to make sure that something gets sorted. but even after the surgery, i was full of tears because i could not see her in such pain, and the way she woke up and it was quite intense, yeah, for a four—year—old. terrible. a lot of kid�*s medicines have a lot of sugar in them as well. yes. ~ , ., , have a lot of sugar in them as well. yes. . , ., , ., have a lot of sugar in them as well. yes. ~ , ., , ., ., yes. where people “udgmental? have reo . le yes. where people “udgmental? have r-eole been yes. where peoplejudgmental? have people been judgmental— yes. where peoplejudgmental? have people been judgmental about - yes. where peoplejudgmental? have people been judgmental about this i people been judgmental about this because people beenjudgmental about this because they can be? yes. people been judgmental about this because they can be?— people been judgmental about this because they can be? yes. of course. i “ust felt because they can be? yes. of course. iiust felt guilty _ because they can be? yes. of course. i just felt guilty myself— because they can be? yes. of course. i just felt guilty myself for _ because they can be? yes. of course. i just felt guilty myself for not - i just felt guilty myself for not feeling her teeth properly are not

thinking how much sugar it contains in everything she was having, so also i remember one of the dentist also i remember one of the dentist also said i don�*t think she has been brushing and i said she has but being on the other side where she is not willing to do it at a young age and struggling, we had to pin her down to do it, we had to do it quick... down to do it, we had to do it auick. .. . down to do it, we had to do it auick... ., ., , ., ., quick... had to pin her down to actually get _ quick... had to pin her down to actually get the _ quick... had to pin her down to actually get the brush - quick... had to pin her down to actually get the brush and - quick... had to pin her down to i actually get the brush and going? yes. we�*vejust actually get the brush and going? yes. we�*ve just been very quick with it because she did not like it. yeah. i�*mjust it because she did not like it. yeah. i�*m just trying to think, because it�*s been such a long time, when did the second teeth comment? the adult teeth?— the adult teeth? yes. it did start comina , the adult teeth? yes. it did start comina, i the adult teeth? yes. it did start coming, i think— the adult teeth? yes. it did start coming, i think she _ the adult teeth? yes. it did start coming, i think she has - the adult teeth? yes. it did start coming, i think she has for - the adult teeth? yes. it did start coming, i think she has for too . the adult teeth? yes. it did start | coming, i think she has for too few now, but five of six, but because her back teeth were all taken out she was having a lot of trouble having food so as soon as they were outcome after a week she didn�*t know

how to eat, so we had to tell her you can just bite from the front by think she was avoiding any solace because she thought she could not eat. it is great that you have come on. listen to charlie as well and we will come to doctor rhona, a dentist who left the nhs four years ago, and health corresponding, bear with us. do you think a lot of this is down to the packets have to wait? i suppose people would argue given that we know that the situation and the difficulties in the nhs, dental care is at an imperative for kids. absolutely, everything seems to be going privatisation these days and you just can�*t get a doctors appointment for love nor money for adults especially, but when it comes to children, dentistry, especially

in essex, apparently they don�*t have anybody can do children�*s anaesthetists at the moment, so it�*s just terrible. anaesthetists at the moment, so it's just terrible-— just terrible. what about... your daughter. _ just terrible. what about... your daughter, what _ just terrible. what about... your daughter, what about _ just terrible. what about... your daughter, what about her - just terrible. what about... your daughter, what about her teeth, j just terrible. what about... your - daughter, what about her teeth, what state the end? it is daughter, what about her teeth, what state the end?— state the end? it is the milk teeth and again. — state the end? it is the milk teeth and again. just — state the end? it is the milk teeth and again, just before _ state the end? it is the milk teeth and again, just before lockdown, l and again, just before lockdown, just before christmas 2019, she complained about toothache, we took to the dentist, local dentist said she needs to have two or maybe three teeth removed and they could not do it there, she needs to be taken into specialist care for it. we were then referred and consequently we�*ve been waiting on that list ever since, obviously there has been teen three visits to the dentist where they have in temporary repairs and fillings and procedures, we finally got our national appointment booked for the 17th of august this year where she has got to be put out,

observation, they can do it under local. from two — three t sits on to atc nationwide. local. from two - three t sits on to atc nationwide.— local. from two - three t sits on to atc nationwide. does she have a pawn sho- for atc nationwide. does she have a pawn shop for sugary _ atc nationwide. does she have a pawn shop for sugary drinks? _ atc nationwide. does she have a pawn shop for sugary drinks? -- _ atc nationwide. does she have a pawn shop for sugary drinks? -- it _ atc nationwide. does she have a pawn shop for sugary drinks? -- it has - shop for sugary drinks? -- it has aone shop for sugary drinks? -- it has gone from _ shop for sugary drinks? -- it has gone from 2-3 — shop for sugary drinks? -- it has gone from 2-3 teeth _ shop for sugary drinks? -- it has gone from 2-3 teeth to - shop for sugary drinks? -- it has gone from 2-3 teeth to eight. i gone from 2—3 teeth to eight. suites, every kid likes sweets. it was one tooth that caused the problem, it developed a whole issue where she wasn�*t clean properly at that stage, she would have been about four at the time, and it has just been infected the rest because she had this problem with the tooth and they could not take out because it needed to be done by specialist, she then has not been brushing her teeth properly because she scared and close answer.—

teeth properly because she scared and close answer. yeah. i'd like you to listen to — and close answer. yeah. i'd like you to listen to dean _ and close answer. yeah. i'd like you to listen to dean in _ and close answer. yeah. i'd like you to listen to dean in birmingham i to listen to dean in birmingham representing a body of opinion. goad representing a body of opinion. good mornina. representing a body of opinion. good morning- kids" _ representing a body of opinion. good morning. kids' teas, _ representing a body of opinion. good morning. kids' teas, stopping - representing a body of opinion. good morning. kids' teas, stopping the i morning. kids' teas, stopping the rot? absolutely. _ morning. kids' teas, stopping the rot? absolutely. with _ morning. kids' teas, stopping the rot? absolutely. with our - morning. kids' teas, stopping the rot? absolutely. with our two i rot? absolutely. with our two children. _ rot? absolutely. with our two children, lewis, _ rot? absolutely. with our two children, lewis, my— rot? absolutely. with our two children, lewis, my son i rot? absolutely. with our two children, lewis, my son is i rot? absolutely. with our two children, lewis, my son is 15, j rot? absolutely. with our two i children, lewis, my son is 15, lexi is a living, — children, lewis, my son is 15, lexi is a living, lose never lost his first — is a living, lose never lost his first teeth _ is a living, lose never lost his first teeth until he was eight and never_ first teeth until he was eight and never had — first teeth until he was eight and never had sweets. he has never had a fizzy drink_ never had sweets. he has never had a fizzy drink in _ never had sweets. he has never had a fizzy drink in his life and his teeth— fizzy drink in his life and his teeth are _ fizzy drink in his life and his teeth are absolutely fantastic, and my daughter lexi is a bit more sweeter— my daughter lexi is a bit more sweeter than my son, she only gets one treated — sweeter than my son, she only gets one treated day, and that is out has always— one treated day, and that is out has always been with them and she now puts a _ always been with them and she now puts a timer on with her mum, living years— puts a timer on with her mum, living years of— puts a timer on with her mum, living years of age. — puts a timer on with her mum, living years of age, brushes her teeth twice _ years of age, brushes her teeth twice a — years of age, brushes her teeth twice a day, and i think that... parents— twice a day, and i think that... parents need to be a bit more strict when _ parents need to be a bit more strict when they— parents need to be a bit more strict when they go to the supermarkets,

shorts, _ when they go to the supermarkets, shorts, you — when they go to the supermarkets, shops, you see it outside the school, — shops, you see it outside the school, they love sweet stuff and on their faces _ school, they love sweet stuff and on their faces and we did not do that with our— their faces and we did not do that with our children and i think the harder— with our children and i think the harder you _ with our children and i think the harder you can be with them, the better— harder you can be with them, the better for— harder you can be with them, the better for them in the long run, because — better for them in the long run, because young children out there now a-e because young children out there now age 3-4— because young children out there now age 3—4 having half their body teeth out, it— age 3—4 having half their body teeth out, it is— age 3—4 having half their body teeth out, it isjust good parenting and you have — out, it isjust good parenting and you have to— out, it isjust good parenting and you have to be strict with them because — you have to be strict with them because they will thank you when they're _ because they will thank you when they're older. what they are going through. _ they're older. what they are going through, we had a pandemic with the kids now— through, we had a pandemic with the kids now and we never had it with their— kids now and we never had it with their children, just good parenting is all— their children, just good parenting is all it— their children, just good parenting is all it took and we have the results — is all it took and we have the results now that we need and that's what i've _ results now that we need and that's what i've got to say.— what i've got to say. painting, loudl . what i've got to say. painting, loudly- when _ what i've got to say. painting, loudly. when you _ what i've got to say. painting, loudly. when you see - what i've got to say. painting, loudly. when you see a - what i've got to say. painting, i loudly. when you see a mammary what i've got to say. painting, - loudly. when you see a mammary dad giving —— when you see a mum or dad giving —— when you see a mum or dad giving coca—cola or sweet fruit juice to their kid in the pusher, how do you feel?— juice to their kid in the pusher, how do you feel? like i said, it is

the parent's _ how do you feel? like i said, it is the parent's fault, _ how do you feel? like i said, it is the parent's fault, not _ how do you feel? like i said, it is the parent's fault, not the - how do you feel? like i said, it is the parent's fault, not the child, | the parent's fault, not the child, parenting — the parent's fault, not the child, parenting is what it is about. we have _ parenting is what it is about. we have to — parenting is what it is about. we have to step up. children don't own nothing _ have to step up. children don't own nothing in _ have to step up. children don't own nothing in life, you teach them everything and they learn everything what you _ everything and they learn everything what you teach them, so as far as i am concerned our children have only gone _ am concerned our children have only gone down _ am concerned our children have only gone down that road because we've taught— gone down that road because we've taught them... i would not let my child _ taught them... i would not let my child is— taught them... i would not let my child is that — taught them... i would not let my child is that there are new to big ba- child is that there are new to big bag of— child is that there are new to big bag of sweets, i'd be disgusted as a parent— bag of sweets, i'd be disgusted as a parent to _ bag of sweets, i'd be disgusted as a parent to do that, that's not right. eventualty— parent to do that, that's not right. eventually they will have that much teeth problems and it is happening now _ teeth problems and it is happening now i_ teeth problems and it is happening now iiust— teeth problems and it is happening now. ijust think, like, it is the parents — now. ijust think, like, it is the parents be _ now. ijust think, like, it is the parents. be more strict with them, when _ parents. be more strict with them, when they— parents. be more strict with them, when they want something give them a piece of— when they want something give them a piece of body fruit, like my daughter has, she has more fruit than _ daughter has, she has more fruit than anything she has now. ijust think— than anything she has now. ijust think that's — than anything she has now. ijust think that's what we need to do, swap— think that's what we need to do, swap the — think that's what we need to do, swap the sweets and fizzy drinks for water, _ swap the sweets and fizzy drinks for water, good fruit and you will solve your problem. water, good fruit and you will solve your problem-— water, good fruit and you will solve your problem. there we are. doctor rhona, your problem. there we are. doctor rhona. good _ your problem. there we are. doctor rhona, good morning. _ your problem. there we are. doctor rhona, good morning. good - your problem. there we are. doctor i rhona, good morning. good morning. how are you? —

rhona, good morning. good morning. how are you? i— rhona, good morning. good morning. how are you? i am _ rhona, good morning. good morning. how are you? i am fine, _ rhona, good morning. good morning. how are you? i am fine, i'm _ rhona, good morning. good morning. how are you? i am fine, i'm really i how are you? i am fine, i'm really en'o ina how are you? i am fine, i'm really enjoying listening _ how are you? i am fine, i'm really enjoying listening to _ how are you? i am fine, i'm really enjoying listening to this. - how are you? i am fine, i'm really enjoying listening to this. i - how are you? i am fine, i'm really enjoying listening to this. i have i enjoying listening to this. i have to present as well. if i was at home i�*d be definitely listening to watching it because it�*s a classic, this, isn�*t it? we�*re talking about health inequalities but when we about health inequalities and sugary drinks and other stuff, we always get the other side of the argument, when we talk about anything in this area. it is down to personal responsibility, good parenting, what would you say to dean? i responsibility, good parenting, what would you say to dean?— responsibility, good parenting, what would you say to dean? i would say, first of all. — would you say to dean? i would say, first of all. we _ would you say to dean? i would say, first of all, we are _ would you say to dean? i would say, first of all, we are any _ would you say to dean? i would say, first of all, we are any crisis - first of all, we are any crisis right now. dentistry has been talked about for the last 2—3 years since the pandemic with the situation got worse, if we look at the facts tooth decay is largely a reversible disease and it is caused by oral hygiene and diet. for example, if you have a lot of sugar then your teeth will develop decay but is not also about the amount, exactly frequency, so frequency is more important than amount. some of the parents i was listening to this

morning, they might not know and through no fault of their own that actually sipping on fruit shoots are sipping on fizzy drinks and smoothies can actually be more detrimental than having that entire drink for example at lunchtime. while? because what happens is the mouth experiences an acid attack. if you are constantly sipping or snacking on sugary things, your mouth is in a constant state of acidity which makes the environment conducive to develop holes in your teeth. 0k? conducive to develop holes in your teeth. ok? so what dean was saying as he is essentially limiting the amount of sugar his children can have and also the daughter that preferred the sugar, he limited the time frame, seaside you can have it but not constantly the day. so these are really good measures to take but we have to bear in mind that a lot of people do not know these. we have not allowed patients to be geared with the facts and make the right decisions. they also don�*t know that for example a lot of the children�*s to space don�*t have enough fluoride,

so fluoride is the key ingredient to help prevent tooth decay, for example, a lot of the children�*s toothpaste has a very small amount of fluoride and those that are more susceptible to decay will be more beneficial having the adult toothpaste smeared on the toothbrush and monitored by the parents. all and monitored by the parents. all very relevant stuff. let me be the devil was �*s advocate, be the tooth fairy advocate, what about what a lot of text others are saying and i will come to that, and as i said before, let me reiterate, copy and paste my previous comments, you get loads of this, and it needs to be addressed. you say people don�*t know through no fault of their own, others say it is completely their fault, their ignorance, it is common sense. what is your answer to that? i think that it�*s an unfair comment because we can�*tjust assume. the way the nhs system has been designed and i worked on it for ten years, you don�*t actually get anything for

prevention, so dentists are not giving the educated advice to the public, there is not enough out there, not enough campaigns out there, not enough campaigns out there, anything just to say well it is common sense, there is a lot of people, where will begin the information from? i don�*t see campaigns, leaflets. you�*re relying on people going to the dentist, by the way, a lot of the uk population pre—the crisis, the inability to get in, didn�*t actually go in for regular checkups. they did not even know that children that are high—risk adults that are high—risk to be going to the dentist every 3—6 months, they would only go when in pain, naturally when it is too late to treat the problem. get pain, naturally when it is too late to treat the problem.— pain, naturally when it is too late to treat the problem. get in touch. lots of people _ to treat the problem. get in touch. lots of people getting _ to treat the problem. get in touch. lots of people getting their - to treat the problem. get in touch. lots of people getting their teeth l lots of people getting their teeth into this one. my colleague dominic hughes, bbc health correspondent. what is the story this morning? 50. what is the story this morning? so, it is another— what is the story this morning? srr, it is another story what is the story this morning? so, it is another story of what is the story this morning? sti,

it is another story of unmet need, really. we�*ve got this data from a freedom of information request put in by the liberal democrats to part of the nhs that gathers the starter, they shared it with us earlier this year, what it shows is that in some areas of england, the longest wait for general anaesthetic treatment for general anaesthetic treatment for children, for dental problems, is 18 months. let me win back a little bit. being that teeth extractions are the most common reason for children aged between 6-10 to reason for children aged between 6—10 to be admitted to hospital, and as we have heard like we heard the story of ella, charlie�*s daughter, if they�*ve got a couple of teeth are more that need to be extracted, children need to have that done under general anaesthetic. we hear all the time about the pressures on the nhs and this is another example of that. this data shows that some children are waiting a very long time, living with pain, is

disrupting their schooling, teachers have told us it�*s very hard for children to concentrate on lessons, they are masculine because they are in pain, every patient who has had a kid who is too thick, and i know we have, knows how destructive that can be on their sleep, so children are living with pain for a very long time, in some parts of the country, but is also revealing the starter, a real postcode lottery, because in other parts of the country the weight is just on average three weeks, so some children waiting an average of 18 months and a longer and some weight in just three weeks, so it is a very varied picture across england. like mac because of that story we are talking about kids�* teeth come prevention, poverty, and where there is poverty there could be cavities.— there could be cavities. there is a eaneral there could be cavities. there is a general ignorance, _ there could be cavities. there is a general ignorance, part _ there could be cavities. there is a general ignorance, part of- there could be cavities. there is a general ignorance, part of the i general ignorance, part of the reason for going to the dentist is

to get enlightenment on how to deal with your teeth, how to take care of your teeth. a couple of texts then we will be with sue in leicester and other callers. a baby child nutritionist. i completely agree with your collar, the parents are responsible for the child�*s oral health, we have to represent these views, there are many of them. a practising dentist of 37 years, i�*ve never seen child dental decay of this rate. we are spending more on restoring teeth than prevention. thank you very much for that. i completely disagree with the last collar, the harder you are dissipating, the child willjust eat sweet things behind your back. i�*m a single parent of two children who is very on top of sweet things and it makes no difference. from alex and

oxford. kate and sue and charlotte, 0xford. kate and sue and charlotte, i�*ll be right with you with an official hello in just a second. so... what do you think about what you have heard so far? goad so... what do you think about what you have heard so far? good morning, har . you have heard so far? good morning, harry- how — you have heard so far? good morning, harry- how rude _ you have heard so far? good morning, harry. how rude of— you have heard so far? good morning, harry. how rude of me _ you have heard so far? good morning, harry. how rude of me not _ you have heard so far? good morning, harry. how rude of me not to - you have heard so far? good morning, | harry. how rude of me not to welcome ou. is it harry. how rude of me not to welcome you- is it about— harry. how rude of me not to welcome you. is it about your _ harry. how rude of me not to welcome you. is it about your kids _ harry. how rude of me not to welcome you. is it about your kids or _ you. is it about your kids or everybody�*s kids? you�*ve got me on in the background and there is feedback coming through, so go and turn the radio down and then we will deal with this. kate, turn the radio down and then we will dealwith this. kate, hello. hi. how do we stop the rot? making - dealwith this. kate, hello. hi. how do we stop the rot? making nhs i do we stop the rot? making nhs appointments — do we stop the rot? making nhs appointments available, - do we stop the rot? making nhs appointments available, easier l do we stop the rot? making nhs i appointments available, easier said than done — appointments available, easier said than done. my two year is yet to see a dentist _ than done. my two year is yet to see

a dentist. we've got dropped by our dentist— a dentist. we've got dropped by our dentist because they said we would not move _ dentist because they said we would not move across to private, they weren't — not move across to private, they weren't going to accept us for nhs appointments any more. my five—year—old had gone from having regular— five—year—old had gone from having regular appointments to not seeing anybody— regular appointments to not seeing anybody for the last two years and i'm yet _ anybody for the last two years and i'm yet to — anybody for the last two years and i'm yet to get youngest end. she has a very— i'm yet to get youngest end. she has a very good _ i'm yet to get youngest end. she has a very good diet, she, we have restricted — a very good diet, she, we have restricted suites, does not drink sugary— restricted suites, does not drink sugary drinks, does have milk at bed timer _ sugary drinks, does have milk at bed time, brushing herteeth is sugary drinks, does have milk at bed time, brushing her teeth is an absolute — time, brushing her teeth is an absolute nightmare, two minutes morning — absolute nightmare, two minutes morning and evening of pure hell, she hates — morning and evening of pure hell, she hates it and it is basically pinning — she hates it and it is basically pinning her down, but without getting — pinning her down, but without getting her teeth actually seen, we are just _ getting her teeth actually seen, we are just trying to do the best that we can— are just trying to do the best that we can in— are just trying to do the best that we can in the hopes that she is going _ we can in the hopes that she is going to — we can in the hopes that she is going to be ok. we can in the hopes that she is going to be 0k-_ we can in the hopes that she is going to be ok. we can in the hopes that she is oaian to be ok. ,, going to be ok. goodness me, tell me about that teeth _ going to be ok. goodness me, tell me about that teeth brushing _ going to be ok. goodness me, tell me about that teeth brushing process i going to be ok. goodness me, tell me about that teeth brushing process at i about that teeth brushing process at night, what a trauma for you? it is not fun. night, what a trauma for you? it is not fun- i'm _ night, what a trauma for you? it is not fun. i'm not _ night, what a trauma for you? it is not fun. i'm not sure _ night, what a trauma for you? it is not fun. i'm not sure why she is so

adverse _ not fun. i'm not sure why she is so adverse to — not fun. i'm not sure why she is so adverse to it _ not fun. i'm not sure why she is so adverse to it. my eldest has never had this— adverse to it. my eldest has never had this issue. she always quite enjoyed — had this issue. she always quite enjoyed it _ had this issue. she always quite enjoyed it. we've got and that we play along — enjoyed it. we've got and that we play along to music to try and make it as interactive and fun as possible _ it as interactive and fun as possible. but she just does not enjoy— possible. but she just does not enjoy it — possible. but she just does not enjoy it. at moshi will take the toothbrush and kind of web it around her mouth— toothbrush and kind of web it around her mouth and say she is done. don't 'ust her mouth and say she is done. don't just need _ her mouth and say she is done. don't just need to — her mouth and say she is done. don't just need to make sure she is getting — just need to make sure she is getting a _ just need to make sure she is getting a proper toothbrush, it is a case of— getting a proper toothbrush, it is a case of sometimes having to pin her down _ case of sometimes having to pin her down and _ case of sometimes having to pin her down and probably making the problem worse in _ down and probably making the problem worse in the long run, doesn't help anybody _ worse in the long run, doesn't help an bod . ~ , worse in the long run, doesn't help anbod. ,, anybody. absolutely, she will associate brushing _ anybody. absolutely, she will associate brushing your- anybody. absolutely, she will associate brushing your teeth anybody. absolutely, she will- associate brushing your teeth with an unpleasant experience. a self propagating problem there. what about... you can get toothpaste which has different flavours? irate which has different flavours? we can, we which has different flavours? we can. we are _ which has different flavours? we can, we are in a low fluoride area so we _ can, we are in a low fluoride area so we are — can, we are in a low fluoride area so we are told she needed to have adult _ so we are told she needed to have adult toothpaste to make sure she is getting _ adult toothpaste to make sure she is getting enough fluorides, because apparently it's in the water, but when _ apparently it's in the water, but when you're any low fluoride area

the recommendation does come that they need _ the recommendation does come that they need to have adult toothpaste, which _ they need to have adult toothpaste, which is _ they need to have adult toothpaste, which is my eldest would also say, it is spicy — which is my eldest would also say, it is spicy i— which is my eldest would also say, it is spicy. i don't believe that the children's to pay flavour like strawberries and apples particularly help. _ strawberries and apples particularly help. i— strawberries and apples particularly help, i think they're quite sweet. i don't _ help, i think they're quite sweet. i don't know— help, i think they're quite sweet. i don't know how dismayed. but it almost _ don't know how dismayed. but it almost seems like you're brushing your teeth — almost seems like you're brushing your teeth with trigger, i'm sure you're _ your teeth with trigger, i'm sure you're not. _ your teeth with trigger, i'm sure you're not, but... we your teeth with trigger, i'm sure you're not, but...— your teeth with trigger, i'm sure you're not, but... we will get some advice on that _ you're not, but... we will get some advice on that and _ you're not, but... we will get some advice on that and apples _ advice on that and apples particularly help, i think they�*re quite sweet. i don�*t know how dismayed. but it almost seems like you are brushing your teeth with trigger, i�*m sure you�*re not, but... we will get some advice on that any second. so in leicester. goad second. so in leicester. good morning- _ second. so in leicester. good morning. we've _ second. so in leicester. good morning. we've sorted - second. so in leicester. good morning. we've sorted it i second. so in leicester. good morning. we've sorted it all | second. so in leicester. good i morning. we've sorted it all out. you work — morning. we've sorted it all out. you work in _ morning. we've sorted it all out. you work in schools. _ morning. we've sorted it all out. you work in schools. yes, - morning. we've sorted it all out. you work in schools. yes, hi. i morning. we've sorted it all out. | you work in schools. yes, hi. i've been working _ you work in schools. yes, hi. i've been working in _ you work in schools. yes, hi. i've been working in schools - you work in schools. yes, hi. i've been working in schools now- you work in schools. yes, hi. i've been working in schools now for. you work in schools. yes, hi. i've i been working in schools now for over five years and ijust been working in schools now for over five years and i just want to bring on the point of there is this culture of saying take water, you�*re

only allowed water in the classrooms, but some secondary schools are selling fizzy drinks and some junk food within the actual canteens, and then the kids might say why are they selling it? but it�*s making that point, it is also a bit of common sense, they don�*t need to be drinking it, they can choose to be drinking it, they can choose to drink water or fruit is what the other gentleman said, fresh fruit, water, a bit of common sense. we all know that certain things are bad for our teeth. know that certain things are bad for ourteeth. but know that certain things are bad for our teeth. but we are choosing, some of us are choosing to have the other things. and secondly, in primary schools, again, there seems to be a culture of sometimes sweets, somebody�*s birthday sweets will go round, you�*ve got five children�*s parents giving out sweets, that�*s a lot of sweets to be giving out to kids at a very young age. saying that, the education is still there, it�*s good, but it does start at home

as well, drinking water, fresh water, fruit, vegetables, and they are watching and mirroring what their parents and other people do as well from a very young age so this is actually an education shift that needs to be done. it is actually an education shift that needs to be done.— is actually an education shift that needs to be done. it is. do you have 5 math needs to be done. it is. do you have sympathy for — needs to be done. it is. do you have sympathy for children, for parents who are not furnished with the facts and don�*t understand the deleterious effect on dental health that sugar has? d0 effect on dental health that sugar has? ,. effect on dental health that sugar has? ., _ , has? do i have sympathy? it is really difficult _ has? do i have sympathy? it is really difficult to _ has? do i have sympathy? it is really difficult to say _ has? do i have sympathy? it is really difficult to say because l because we have lost the line. yes, i have something in terms they can say we did not know this is bad for our teeth, say we did not know this is bad for ourteeth, but say we did not know this is bad for our teeth, but i think if you just stick to simple common sense, things with sugar in is going to be bad for teeth, plain water you cannot go

wrong, our bodies are naturally consisting of water anyway, why not stick to water and fruit? have the odd treat, you have to live a bit, but some people are taking the living bit a bit too far. it�*s a bit of common sense as well. living bit a bit too far. it's a bit of common sense as well. have you heard parents _ of common sense as well. have you heard parents say... _ of common sense as well. have you heard parents say... you _ of common sense as well. have you heard parents say... you know, i of common sense as well. have you heard parents say... you know, hel of common sense as well. have you i heard parents say... you know, he or she doesn�*t like water, they don�*t like water. have you heard that? yes. me as a kid, to be fair, i also wanted ribena or something in my water. but very little of in. haste water. but very little of in. we alwa s water. but very little of in. we always you _ water. but very little of in. we always you start _ water. but very little of in. we always you start dilating orange juice in the house, and i have a deep sense of nostalgia for it, but it wasn�*t good. it really wasn�*t good for the teeth. but that was the go—to drink, not water. good for the teeth. but that was the go-to drink, not water.— go-to drink, not water. come to think of it, _ go-to drink, not water. come to think of it, i— go-to drink, not water. come to think of it, i had _ go-to drink, not water. come to think of it, i had that _ go-to drink, not water. come to think of it, i had that as - go-to drink, not water. come to think of it, i had that as well, i think of it, i had that as well, squash, ribena, undiluted, but this

is another thing, if we are going to delhi to, you have a choice again, just put a little bit and the rest of it water, it will still give a sugary flavour, whereas some people�*s version of the little bits quite a lot. it people's version of the little bits quite a lot-— people�*s version of the little bits quite a lot. it is. anyway, i guess the reason _ quite a lot. it is. anyway, i guess the reason i'm _ quite a lot. it is. anyway, i guess the reason i'm calling _ quite a lot. it is. anyway, i guess the reason i'm calling up as i think the reason i�*m calling up as i think personally an education in schools, it�*s about educating, and it�*s the sweets and chocolates and the fizzy drinks that are being sold there, they have a responsibility as well not to sell in there. at such a high level, some schools, not all skills. and secondly, little babies, really young are given fizzy drinks, chocolates, the adults are thinking they are doing them a favour and going because the server, here you going because the server, here you go comical to treat, but that one or two or three or four—year—old child doesn�*t really know the difference. and they don�*t really care what they

get, some of the children. but the adults are giving it to them. and also a bit of honey. i�*m interested in what charlotte stelling reid has to say, the baby and child nutritionist.— and child nutritionist. thank you for havina and child nutritionist. thank you for having me — and child nutritionist. thank you for having me on. _ and child nutritionist. thank you for having me on. is _ and child nutritionist. thank you for having me on. is there i and child nutritionist. thank you for having me on. is there any i for having me on. is there any excuse not — for having me on. is there any excuse not to _ for having me on. is there any excuse not to know _ for having me on. is there any excuse not to know that i for having me on. is there any excuse not to know that sugar for having me on. is there any i excuse not to know that sugar is harmful to teeth, or is it down to education and you have sympathy? i think a lot of parents are aware that sugar— think a lot of parents are aware that sugar is not good for teeth, but there — that sugar is not good for teeth, but there are a few issues. firstly, perhaps— but there are a few issues. firstly, perhaps people don't know the extent of the _ perhaps people don't know the extent of the problem with sugar. i think a lot of— of the problem with sugar. i think a lot of parents will be unaware of some _ lot of parents will be unaware of some of— lot of parents will be unaware of some of the behaviours that can have an impact— some of the behaviours that can have an impact on— some of the behaviours that can have an impact on dental health. we also need to— an impact on dental health. we also need to offer a lot more support to new mums~ — need to offer a lot more support to new mums. there are so many other areas _ new mums. there are so many other areas of— new mums. there are so many other areas of nutrition that parents don't — areas of nutrition that parents don't know about, and this isjust one part — don't know about, and this isjust one part. educating new parents is

vital my— one part. educating new parents is vital my giving them the tools to feed their— vital my giving them the tools to feed their children a healthy diet. the last— feed their children a healthy diet. the last caller made a good point that the _ the last caller made a good point that the early years matter so much. the habits. _ that the early years matter so much. the habits, their patterns of eating. _ the habits, their patterns of eating, the role modelling that young — eating, the role modelling that young children see is likely to stay with them — young children see is likely to stay with them for life. so if we are introducing some of these foods early— introducing some of these foods early on — introducing some of these foods early on in — introducing some of these foods early on in the diet, it is going to impact _ early on in the diet, it is going to impact their— early on in the diet, it is going to impact their dental health not just now _ impact their dental health not just now. but— impact their dental health not just now, but later as well. the impact their dental health not 'ust now, but later as well. the argument is that if you — now, but later as well. the argument is that if you can't _ now, but later as well. the argument is that if you can't see _ now, but later as well. the argument is that if you can't see a _ now, but later as well. the argument is that if you can't see a dentist, i is that if you can�*t see a dentist, which is horrendously the case for so many, make sure you need to see a dentist infrequently. quick text — ourson dentist infrequently. quick text — our son will be three years old next week and we live in chelmsford. we have made phone calls and walked into dentist offices to register him but until now, he has not been

registered with a dentist, let alone get his teeth checked regularly. we don�*t know when we will be able to don�*t know when we will be able to do that. thank you for that. kids�* teeth, stopping the rot, more to come. here�*s the news from giuliano casadei. inflation in the uk has dropped to 7.9% in the year tojune — that�*s from 8.7% in may. although still high, it�*s better than many economists had expected. the metropolitan police force has apologised to the family of daniel morgan — a private detective who was murdered in 1987. the met has also reached a private financial settlement and admitted liability for its failings in the investigation. tata, the owner of jaguar land rover, has confirmed plans to build a new electric car battery factory in the uk.

tata says it�*s investing £4 billion, but it�*s understood the government is providing subsidies worth hundreds of millions of pounds. new data shows children in some parts of england who need a general anaesthetic for dental work are having to wait 18 months for treatment. the data comes from a freedom of information request to the nhs. john wilkinson has the sport. ben stokes says bad weather for the fourth ashes test could "suit them even more", as it�*ll encourage even more of the attacking style of play england have adopted. they�*re 2—1 down in the series ahead of today�*s match at old trafford. england women ended their ashes with a one—day international win over australia, which also inflicted a first 0di series defeat on the tourists in ten years. the ashes were drawn overall. captain heather knight says the points system should perhaps be looked at. england won the t20 series. marcus rashford has signed a new five—year contract with manchester united.

he scored 30 goals in 56 games last season. the fifa president gianni infantino says he only wants to talk about positive things during the women�*s world cup. it�*s been overshadowed by issues including gender pay disparity and performance related pay. england�*s players have put their own talks with the fa on hold. and the british and irish lions will play a new zealand and australia invitational 15 as part of their 9—match tour down under in 2025.

good morning, it is the nation�*s phone—in. coming up, we have two mps and a peer. it is prime minister�*s questions at 12 and it is your question is at ten. and you can of course listen to pmqs with naga on 5 live and also what on bbc two and bbc news. we will have bob seely, conservative mp for the isle of wight. he is a combative chap. and baronessjenny chapman, labour peer and member of the shadow cabinet. and richard foord, liberal democrat mp for tiverton and honiton, the party�*s spokesperson on defence. he has been on before, making a triumphant return, no doubt. you can ask them about whatever you

want. so, kids�* teeth — stopping the rot. it's so, kids�* teeth — stopping the rot. it�*s really difficult to get kids to an nhs dentist and kids�* teeth are in a terrible state. there are other factors. is it down to education, ignorance? lots of thoughts coming in. we have still got charlotte stirling—reed, the baby and child nutritionist, and chris groombridge is with us as well, chair of the charity that goes to schools and supervises tooth—brushing. jackie, you want to talk about your

grandson?— you want to talk about your arandson? , ., . , , grandson? yes, we have recently been made a kinship — grandson? yes, we have recently been made a kinship parents _ grandson? yes, we have recently been made a kinship parents of an _ made a kinship parents of an 11—year—old boy who has massive dental problems. we couldn�*t get an nhs dentist, so we are with bupa and they said they would take him just for this treatment. they can�*t take him privately, because he is too young. they have put him on the nhs waiting list because he has to have three extractions. but the waiting list is huge and he keeps getting abscesses and we can�*t afford to go private. so what is the alternative? why are his teeth so bad? idetail. private. so what is the alternative? why are his teeth so bad?- why are his teeth so bad? well, he did all the wrong _ why are his teeth so bad? well, he did all the wrong things _ why are his teeth so bad? well, he did all the wrong things with - why are his teeth so bad? well, he did all the wrong things with his i did all the wrong things with his mother and had a lot of sugar. his mother and had a lot of sugar. his mother isn�*t in his life any more. so even though we are doing right things now, there is nothing we can do until they extract these teeth,

and they won�*t do it until they can fit him in. it�*s a big problem. there is a lot of sadness involved, and you have inherited the situation. what about the [ad himself, is he in pain? he situation. what about the lad himself, is he in pain?- situation. what about the lad himself, is he in pain? he is in rain himself, is he in pain? he is in pain some _ himself, is he in pain? he is in pain some of _ himself, is he in pain? he is in pain some of the _ himself, is he in pain? he is in pain some of the time. - himself, is he in pain? he is in| pain some of the time. luckily, himself, is he in pain? he is in i pain some of the time. luckily, bupa will provide him with an antibiotic prescription. so he has to keep having antibiotics. the only other alternative is to wait until he is 12, and then they will do it by numbing his mouth, but he has tracked second teeth and i don�*t think we could put him through that. so we don�*t have any choice. i understand the nhs is under stress, but something needs to be put in place, like a private scheme. the alternative is to spend thousands of

pounds that we haven�*t got. alternative is to spend thousands of pounds that we haven't got.- pounds that we haven't got. young habits die hard, _ pounds that we haven't got. young habits die hard, so _ pounds that we haven't got. young habits die hard, so what _ pounds that we haven't got. young habits die hard, so what happens l habits die hard, so what happens when he says, granny, i would like some coca—cola or some fruitjuice or some chocolate? are you able to explain? he or some chocolate? are you able to ex-lain? ., , ., ~ ., explain? he does now know. unfortunately, _ explain? he does now know. unfortunately, because i explain? he does now know. unfortunately, because he i explain? he does now know. i unfortunately, because he has explain? he does now know. - unfortunately, because he has been through trauma, we have been advised that they need sugar because it releases some endorphins or something that make him happy. so he does have to have sugar, but we have switched his drinks to sugar free and limited the amount of sugar he can have. but like you say, it�*s a habit that he has now got and it is something we are trying to break. jackie, thank you. lalit in north—west london, i saw your text. have been a dentist for many a long year, almost as long as i have been

doing radio. what are kids�* teeth like and who is responsible? thank ou for like and who is responsible? thank you for taking _ like and who is responsible? thank you for taking my _ like and who is responsible? thank you for taking my call. _ like and who is responsible? thank you for taking my call. i _ like and who is responsible? thank you for taking my call. i love i like and who is responsible? thank you for taking my call. i love your i you for taking my call. i love your programme. i have been a dentist for 27 years _ programme. i have been a dentist for 27 years and — programme. i have been a dentist for 27 years and i am on the local dentist— 27 years and i am on the local dentist committee. this area had the worst— dentist committee. this area had the worst tooth _ dentist committee. this area had the worst tooth health in the country a few years — worst tooth health in the country a few years ago. we tried all sorts of measures— few years ago. we tried all sorts of measures to reduce this, but we are fighting _ measures to reduce this, but we are fighting a _ measures to reduce this, but we are fighting a battle we can't win. we all think— fighting a battle we can't win. we all think it — fighting a battle we can't win. we all think it is the parents' responsibility. children should be taught— responsibility. children should be taught how to brush their teeth. also, _ taught how to brush their teeth. also, no— taught how to brush their teeth. also, no sweets in between meals. i think— also, no sweets in between meals. i think sweets are used as pacifiers nowadays — think sweets are used as pacifiers nowadays where if a child is crying, they are _ nowadays where if a child is crying, they are given sweets and they stop crying _ they are given sweets and they stop crying. that is not the way to deal

with the _ crying. that is not the way to deal with the problem. we have tried prevention from day one, when fluoride — prevention from day one, when fluoride was considered poisonous in water~ _ fluoride was considered poisonous in water. now, fluoride is regularly used _ water. now, fluoride is regularly used but— water. now, fluoride is regularly used. but it comes from parents more than anything else. but used. but it comes from parents more than anything else.— than anything else. but until relatively — than anything else. but until relatively recently, - than anything else. but until relatively recently, i- than anything else. but until relatively recently, i am i than anything else. but until- relatively recently, i am reasonably clued up about some things but i didn�*t realise the amount of sugar in wholemeal bread. i didn�*t realise that some of these fruit juices are full of sugar. there is the obvious stuff like coca—cola and sweets, but there are also the hidden sugars. so there are also the hidden sugars. so there needs to be education and you can�*t entirely blame parents, because the food industry, without lashing away too much because they are not here to defend themselves, but they have a responsibility, don�*t they?

but they have a responsibility, don't they?— but they have a responsibility, don't the ? ., ., , ., don't they? you are right, i should have mentioned _ don't they? you are right, i should have mentioned that _ don't they? you are right, i should have mentioned that as _ don't they? you are right, i should have mentioned that as well i don't they? you are right, i should have mentioned that as well aboutj have mentioned that as well about hidden _ have mentioned that as well about hidden sugars. jamie oliver tried to have a _ hidden sugars. jamie oliver tried to have a sugar tax, what happened to that? _ have a sugar tax, what happened to that? it— have a sugar tax, what happened to that? it was— have a sugar tax, what happened to that? it was phased out. and the industry— that? it was phased out. and the industry should do more about this. but the _ industry should do more about this. but the main problem that dental disease _ but the main problem that dental disease is — but the main problem that dental disease is preventable. unfortunately, we are fighting dental— unfortunately, we are fighting dental decay when it can be prevented. they should come to a solution _ prevented. they should come to a solution so — prevented. they should come to a solution so that we can prevent this _ solution so that we can prevent this i— solution so that we can prevent this i have _ solution so that we can prevent this. i have been doing this for years— this. i have been doing this for years and _ this. i have been doing this for years and i_ this. i have been doing this for years and i am still fighting a losing — years and i am still fighting a losing battle.— years and i am still fighting a losina battle. . w ,, losing battle. are you taking nhs ratients? losing battle. are you taking nhs patients? of— losing battle. are you taking nhs patients? of course _ losing battle. are you taking nhs patients? of course we _ losing battle. are you taking nhs patients? of course we are. i losing battle. are you taking nhs patients? of course we are. we l losing battle. are you taking nhs - patients? of course we are. we have a lane patients? of course we are. we have a large practice _ patients? of course we are. we have a large practice here _ patients? of course we are. we have a large practice here with _ patients? of course we are. we have a large practice here with an - patients? of course we are. we have a large practice here with an nhs - a large practice here with an nhs contract — a large practice here with an nhs contract. and when we take nhs

patients, — contract. and when we take nhs patients, they are patients that nobody — patients, they are patients that nobody else wants to see and get rid of their_ nobody else wants to see and get rid of their pain. hence we end up with patients— of their pain. hence we end up with patients that need so much work doing _ patients that need so much work doing we — patients that need so much work doing. we let our trainees deal with the problems and guide them through. i am 64 _ the problems and guide them through. i am 64 now_ the problems and guide them through. i am 64 now and i have a passion for dentistry, _ i am 64 now and i have a passion for dentistry, but— i am 64 now and i have a passion for dentistry, but i get to a stage where — dentistry, but i get to a stage where i— dentistry, but i get to a stage where i am so frustrated with the system _ where i am so frustrated with the system and there is no change. i heard _ system and there is no change. i heard the — system and there is no change. i heard the select committee gave a proposal— heard the select committee gave a proposal about how to improve dental services _ proposal about how to improve dental services in _ proposal about how to improve dental services in the uk. my daughter works— services in the uk. my daughter works in— services in the uk. my daughter works in the civil service and i asked — works in the civil service and i asked her— works in the civil service and i asked her about this. works in the civil service and i asked herabout this. she works in the civil service and i asked her about this. she said it is 'ust asked her about this. she said it is just going — asked her about this. she said it is just going to be brushed under the carpet _ just going to be brushed under the caret. ~ ., , just going to be brushed under the caret. ~ ., . just going to be brushed under the caret. ~ . , ., , carpet. what is the worst thing you have seen when _ carpet. what is the worst thing you have seen when you _ carpet. what is the worst thing you have seen when you have - carpet. what is the worst thing you have seen when you have looked . carpet. what is the worst thing you j have seen when you have looked in carpet. what is the worst thing you l have seen when you have looked in a kids mouth? filth. have seen when you have looked in a kid's mouth?—

have seen when you have looked in a kid's mouth? , ,., . , kid's mouth? oh, my god. i have seen 20 decayed — kid's mouth? oh, my god. i have seen 20 decayed teeth _ kid's mouth? oh, my god. i have seen 20 decayed teeth with _ kid's mouth? oh, my god. i have seen 20 decayed teeth with just _ kid's mouth? oh, my god. i have seen 20 decayed teeth with just root - 20 decayed teeth withjust root surfaces— 20 decayed teeth withjust root surfaces left. these are just black teeth— surfaces left. these are just black teeth and — surfaces left. these are just black teeth and the child is having pacifiers, and the face is swollen because — pacifiers, and the face is swollen because of— pacifiers, and the face is swollen because of abscesses, so i have two refer— because of abscesses, so i have two refer them _ because of abscesses, so i have two refer them to get the teeth taken out under— refer them to get the teeth taken out under general anaesthetic. how old? this child — out under general anaesthetic. how old? this child was _ out under general anaesthetic. hmw old? this child was about out under general anaesthetic. how old? this child was about eight. thank you for your expertise and your kind words and everything you are doing. charlotte stirling—reed, thatis are doing. charlotte stirling—reed, that is horrendous. it’s are doing. charlotte stirling-reed, that is horrendous.— that is horrendous. it's really sad. as we have _ that is horrendous. it's really sad. as we have all— that is horrendous. it's really sad. as we have all said _ that is horrendous. it's really sad. as we have all said today, - that is horrendous. it's really sad. as we have all said today, it - that is horrendous. it's really sad. as we have all said today, it is - as we have all said today, it is preventable, but it's a massive problem. i love the fact that you did bring the food industry into this, because there is a huge part to play. we need more access to dentists, yes, and to educate

parents, but there is an issue with the food industry. we have baby juices being offered and for many parents, that is almost a thumbs up that it's ok to give our babyjuices when we know what it is all they need. —— water is all they need. we don't need these juices that are becoming more and more the norm for every age of the population. let becoming more and more the norm for every age of the population.— every age of the population. let me welcome a professor— every age of the population. let me welcome a professor in _ every age of the population. let me welcome a professor in paediatric . welcome a professor in paediatric dentistry. i have got some texts for you, because you have the expertise we need. could you answer them quickly, because we have so many. it would be really useful. i will quickly, because we have so many. it would be really useful.— would be really useful. i will try m best.

would be really useful. i will try my best- i _ would be really useful. i will try my best- i am _ would be really useful. i will try my best. i am 10 _ would be really useful. i will try my best. i am 10 in _ would be really useful. i will try - my best. i am 10 in gloucestershire. do ou my best. i am 10 in gloucestershire. do you think — my best. i am 10 in gloucestershire. do you think some _ my best. i am 10 in gloucestershire. do you think some children - my best. i am 10 in gloucestershire. do you think some children have - do you think some children have naturally had teeth? i have four aduu naturally had teeth? i have four adult children with no fillings. is there a bit of genetic stuff going on here? it’s there a bit of genetic stuff going on here? �* . ., there a bit of genetic stuff going on here? �*, . , there a bit of genetic stuff going onhere? �*, . , , on here? it's a complex thing, but that is only _ on here? it's a complex thing, but that is only a _ on here? it's a complex thing, but that is only a very _ on here? it's a complex thing, but that is only a very small _ that is only a very small contribution to the fact that people don't _ contribution to the fact that people don't get _ contribution to the fact that people don't get tooth decay. it is a preventable disease. if you live in an area _ preventable disease. if you live in an area where you have fluoridated water, _ an area where you have fluoridated water, which might be in gusher, that might — water, which might be in gusher, that might be something that would make your teeth harder. we know fluoride _ make your teeth harder. we know fluoride in — make your teeth harder. we know fluoride in the water does reduce the amount of tooth decay by 25%. that could — the amount of tooth decay by 25%. that could give you harder teeth. another— that could give you harder teeth. another texts — too much fluoride causes tooth decay, says one. what about fluoride free toothpaste for kids? another one, we were given a tip by a friend to give fluoride drops to the baby milk until they were old enough to brush their

teeth. some more fluoride thoughts, please? tao teeth. some more fluoride thoughts, lease? . ., please? too much fluoride in the water above _ please? too much fluoride in the water above a _ please? too much fluoride in the water above a certain _ please? too much fluoride in the water above a certain level - please? too much fluoride in the water above a certain level in - please? too much fluoride in the i water above a certain level in areas which _ water above a certain level in areas which are _ water above a certain level in areas which are naturally fluoridated can affect _ which are naturally fluoridated can affect the — which are naturally fluoridated can affect the formation of teeth but they don't cause tooth decay. too much _ they don't cause tooth decay. too much fluoride doesn't cause tooth decay _ much fluoride doesn't cause tooth decay. once a baby is born and the teeth— decay. once a baby is born and the teeth are _ decay. once a baby is born and the teeth are forming, topical fluoride is the _ teeth are forming, topical fluoride is the best— teeth are forming, topical fluoride is the best form we have. ideally, we want _ is the best form we have. ideally, we want it— is the best form we have. ideally, we want it in the water but if not, we want it in the water but if not, we should — we want it in the water but if not, we should use fluoridated toothpaste. for babies, we advise about— toothpaste. for babies, we advise about 1000 parts per million. and that is— about1000 parts per million. and that is all— about 1000 parts per million. and that is all in toothpaste. if you read _ that is all in toothpaste. if you read your— that is all in toothpaste. if you read your toothpaste, you will find the amount of fluoride written on it. ideally. — the amount of fluoride written on it. ideally, use adult toothpaste, but the _ it. ideally, use adult toothpaste, but the majority of children's toothpastes in the uk has a minimum amount— toothpastes in the uk has a minimum amount of— toothpastes in the uk has a minimum amount of fluoride we want, which is between _ amount of fluoride we want, which is between 1000 to 1400 for older

children — between 1000 to 1400 for older children. . ., between 1000 to 1400 for older children. ., . ' y children. great stuff. my four-year-old _ children. great stuff. my four-year-old grandson | children. great stuff. my - four-year-old grandson doesn't children. great stuff. my _ four-year-old grandson doesn't eat four—year—old grandson doesn't eat sweets, but has the occasional sweet biscuit. but he does eat a lot of apples. i heard that apples can be bad for teeth due to the acidity. they break down enamel. remember an apple a day keeps the doctor away? what about apples?— what about apples? fruits that are whole fruit are _ what about apples? fruits that are whole fruit are not _ what about apples? fruits that are whole fruit are not harmful- what about apples? fruits that are whole fruit are not harmful for- whole fruit are not harmful for teeth — whole fruit are not harmful for teeth. they are good for you. too much _ teeth. they are good for you. too much acid — teeth. they are good for you. too much acid can cause what we call tooth— much acid can cause what we call tooth erosion, but only if you have it in huge — tooth erosion, but only if you have it in huge amounts, and you usually start worrying about that when your adult _ start worrying about that when your adult teeth come through. i would continue _ adult teeth come through. i would continue with the apples. i�*m adult teeth come through. i would continue with the apples.— continue with the apples. i'm 'ust remembering fl continue with the apples. i'm 'ust remembering some i continue with the apples. i'm 'ust remembering some of i continue with the apples. i'm 'ust remembering some of the h continue with the apples. i'm just remembering some of the old - continue with the apples. i'm just - remembering some of the old adverts. or is it milky way, the snack you can eat between meals without ruining your appetite? you wouldn't

be that here's another one. is eating crisps and cheese balls ok? is it better than eating sweets? taste is it better than eating sweets? we as dentists have been guilty for a while _ as dentists have been guilty for a while and — as dentists have been guilty for a while and recommending foods that can cause _ while and recommending foods that can cause other health problemsjust because _ can cause other health problemsjust because they don't have sugar in them _ because they don't have sugar in them i— because they don't have sugar in them i am — because they don't have sugar in them. i am against that. we need to have one _ them. i am against that. we need to have one healthy message. we need to work together with the nutritionists and all— work together with the nutritionists and all medical health professionals and all medical health professionals and we _ and all medical health professionals and we need to keep on one message. we need _ and we need to keep on one message. we need to— and we need to keep on one message. we need to have a healthy diet, reduce — we need to have a healthy diet, reduce the amount of sugar, brush teeth— reduce the amount of sugar, brush teeth twice — reduce the amount of sugar, brush teeth twice a day, once before bed, to make _ teeth twice a day, once before bed, to make sure you reduce the chances of tooth _ to make sure you reduce the chances of tooth decay. a white and brilliant _ of tooth decay. a white and brilliant stuff. chris groombridge, chair— brilliant stuff. chris groombridge, chair of— brilliant stuff. chris groombridge, chair of a — brilliant stuff. chris groombridge, chair of a charity that goes into schools — chair of a charity that goes into schools to _ chair of a charity that goes into schools to supervise tooth—brushing, -ood schools to supervise tooth—brushing, good morning. how schools to supervise tooth-brushing, good morning-— schools to supervise tooth-brushing, good morning. how do we get kids to brush teeth? —

good morning. how do we get kids to brush teeth? we _ good morning. how do we get kids to brush teeth? we have _ good morning. how do we get kids to brush teeth? we have heard - good morning. how do we get kids to brush teeth? we have heard parents| brush teeth? we have heard parents this morning having to literally pin the kids down and get that toothbrush in there. what is the message? in toothbrush in there. what is the messaie? . ., , toothbrush in there. what is the messaie? , . , _ toothbrush in there. what is the messaie? , . , ,. , . message? in primary schools and nurseries. — message? in primary schools and nurseries. is _ message? in primary schools and nurseries, is about _ message? in primary schools and nurseries, is about the _ message? in primary schools and nurseries, is about the peer- nurseries, is about the peer pressure. we sometimes start with a single year. we have been doing this since 2005, and we find that the other children that are brushing, shortly afterwards, the other children feel they want to be part of it and theyjoin in. peer pressure is how we get the children. they want to get involved once they see that a child has a toothbrush and they are enjoying what they are doing. then other children will pressure their parents to sign the positive consent form. so pressure their parents to sign the positive consent form.— pressure their parents to sign the positive consent form. so make it fun? absolutely. _ positive consent form. so make it fun? absolutely. we _

positive consent form. so make it fun? absolutely. we do _ positive consent form. so make it fun? absolutely. we do it - positive consent form. so make it fun? absolutely. we do it for - positive consent form. so make it fun? absolutely. we do it for two | fun? absolutely. we do it for two minutes at _ fun? absolutely. we do it for two minutes at school _ fun? absolutely. we do it for two minutes at school every - fun? absolutely. we do it for two minutes at school every day. - fun? absolutely. we do it for two | minutes at school every day. they fun? absolutely. we do it for two - minutes at school every day. they do dry brushing spit into a paper towel. there is no water involved apart from when the brushes are rinsed at the end. it is done generally in school registration time. ., . generally in school registration time. ., ' . generally in school registration time. . f. ., time. that is an effective time to do it. time. that is an effective time to do it- denise _ time. that is an effective time to do it. denise is _ time. that is an effective time to do it. denise is in _ time. that is an effective time to do it. denise is in eastbourne, i time. that is an effective time to do it. denise is in eastbourne, a| do it. denise is in eastbourne, a first time caller. tell us about your daughter. mr; first time caller. tell us about your daughter.— first time caller. tell us about your daughter. first time caller. tell us about our dauihter. y ., . your daughter. my daughter is eight. she is hiih your daughter. my daughter is eight. she is high functioning _ your daughter. my daughter is eight. she is high functioning autistic. - she is high functioning autistic. she is high functioning autistic. she doesn't eat particularly well, as many— she doesn't eat particularly well, as many autistic children don't. she is very— as many autistic children don't. she is very sensory and she uses sugar as her— is very sensory and she uses sugar as her energy source because of that _ as her energy source because of that that— as her energy source because of that. that is not an excuse, but she can't _ that. that is not an excuse, but she can't cope _ that. that is not an excuse, but she can't cope with the sensory feel of a toothbrush. i have tried natural

toothbrushes and all sorts of things that are _ toothbrushes and all sorts of things that are for autistic children, but she won't— that are for autistic children, but she won't have any of it. so it's not clear— she won't have any of it. so it's not clear cut. there are children with _ not clear cut. there are children with sen — not clear cut. there are children with sen that struggle and it's more difficult _ with sen that struggle and it's more difficult than people realise. | get difficult than people realise. i get that. so difficult than people realise. i get that- so how _ difficult than people realise. i get that. so how are _ difficult than people realise. i get that. so how are her— difficult than people realise. i get that. so how are her teeth? they| difficult than people realise. i get. that. so how are her teeth? they are not ireat. that. so how are her teeth? they are not great- she _ that. so how are her teeth? they are not great. she does _ that. so how are her teeth? they are not great. she does have _ that. so how are her teeth? they are not great. she does have to - that. so how are her teeth? they are not great. she does have to have - not great. she does have to have three _ not great. she does have to have three teeth removed, and i blame myself _ three teeth removed, and i blame myself i— three teeth removed, and i blame myself. i have tried alternatives, but she _ myself. i have tried alternatives, but she will not have any. i started her off— but she will not have any. i started her off on — but she will not have any. i started her off on a — but she will not have any. i started her off on a good diet when she was young _ her off on a good diet when she was young i_ her off on a good diet when she was young i was — her off on a good diet when she was young. iwas pur eing her off on a good diet when she was young. i was pur eing everything, fruit and — young. i was pur eing everything, fruit and vegetables, and as she was growing _ fruit and vegetables, and as she was growing up. — fruit and vegetables, and as she was growing up, she dropped everything and just— growing up, she dropped everything and just wouldn't eat properly. we are waiting — and just wouldn't eat properly. we are waiting foran and just wouldn't eat properly. we are waiting for an nhs appointment to have _ are waiting for an nhs appointment to have those teeth removed. i'm

trying _ to have those teeth removed. i'm trying to— to have those teeth removed. i'm trying to get her to brush her teeth. — trying to get her to brush her teeth, even for ten seconds, and then— teeth, even for ten seconds, and then increase the time, which we are working _ then increase the time, which we are working on — then increase the time, which we are working on. her teeth are not great and i_ working on. her teeth are not great and i admit — working on. her teeth are not great and i admit that.— and i admit that. sounds like you are doini and i admit that. sounds like you are doing the _ and i admit that. sounds like you are doing the right _ and i admit that. sounds like you are doing the right thing. - and i admit that. sounds like you are doing the right thing. i - and i admit that. sounds like you are doing the right thing. i have. are doing the right thing. i have worked with _ are doing the right thing. i have worked with children _ are doing the right thing. i have worked with children with - are doing the right thing. i have worked with children with sen, | are doing the right thing. i have i worked with children with sen, so are doing the right thing. i have - worked with children with sen, so i have seen— worked with children with sen, so i have seen it before. i have been a childminder— have seen it before. i have been a childminder and have seen it before. i have been a childminderand i have seen it before. i have been a childminder and i have have seen it before. i have been a childminderand i have seen have seen it before. i have been a childminder and i have seen the teeth— childminder and i have seen the teeth that some children have that are really— teeth that some children have that are really poor, and also time, it is related — are really poor, and also time, it is related to _ are really poor, and also time, it is related to autism that they later -et is related to autism that they later get diagnosed with. so it's not as easy— get diagnosed with. so it's not as easy as _ get diagnosed with. so it's not as easy as people think. and get diagnosed with. so it's not as easy as people think.— get diagnosed with. so it's not as easy as people think. and it's very easy as people think. and it's very eas to easy as people think. and it's very easy to be — easy as people think. and it's very easy to be judgmental. _ easy as people think. and it's very easy to bejudgmental. gail- easy as people think. and it's very easy to be judgmental. gail in - easy to bejudgmental. gail in newcastle in staffordshire? kids' teeth, what do you think? i

newcastle in staffordshire? kids' teeth, what do you think?- teeth, what do you think? i have made a very _ teeth, what do you think? i have made a very conscious _ teeth, what do you think? i have made a very conscious effort - teeth, what do you think? i have l made a very conscious effort from teeth, what do you think? i have - made a very conscious effort from an early— made a very conscious effort from an early age _ made a very conscious effort from an early age not — made a very conscious effort from an early age not to— made a very conscious effort from an early age not to introduce _ made a very conscious effort from an early age not to introduce my - early age not to introduce my children— early age not to introduce my children to _ early age not to introduce my children to anything - early age not to introduce my children to anything that - early age not to introduce my i children to anything that harms their— children to anything that harms their teeth _ children to anything that harms their teeth. went _ children to anything that harms their teeth. went to _ children to anything that harms their teeth. went to the - children to anything that harms| their teeth. went to the dentist from _ their teeth. went to the dentist from a — their teeth. went to the dentist from a very— their teeth. went to the dentist from a very early— their teeth. went to the dentist from a very early age. - their teeth. went to the dentist from a very early age. i - their teeth. went to the dentist from a very early age. i went. their teeth. went to the dentist. from a very early age. i went along with them — from a very early age. i went along with them myself— from a very early age. i went along with them myself for— from a very early age. i went along with them myself for checkups - from a very early age. i went along with them myself for checkups to l with them myself for checkups to show _ with them myself for checkups to show that — with them myself for checkups to show that it — with them myself for checkups to show that it wasn't _ with them myself for checkups to show that it wasn't anything - with them myself for checkups to show that it wasn't anything to i with them myself for checkups to| show that it wasn't anything to be frightened — show that it wasn't anything to be frightened of _ show that it wasn't anything to be frightened of. they— show that it wasn't anything to be frightened of. they started - show that it wasn't anything to bej frightened of. they started school and we _ frightened of. they started school and we were — frightened of. they started school and we were suddenly— frightened of. they started school and we were suddenly inundated. frightened of. they started school- and we were suddenly inundated with kids' parties — and we were suddenly inundated with kids' parties. and _ and we were suddenly inundated with kids' parties. and they— and we were suddenly inundated with kids' parties. and they were - kids' parties. and they were suddenly— kids' parties. and they were suddenly departing - kids' parties. and they were suddenly departing from - kids' parties. and they were| suddenly departing from the kids' parties. and they were - suddenly departing from the healthy snacks— suddenly departing from the healthy snacks and _ suddenly departing from the healthy snacks and there _ suddenly departing from the healthy snacks and there was _ suddenly departing from the healthy snacks and there was no _ suddenly departing from the healthy snacks and there was no alternativel snacks and there was no alternative at kids' _ snacks and there was no alternative at kids' parties _ snacks and there was no alternative at kids' parties. there _ snacks and there was no alternative at kids' parties. there were - snacks and there was no alternative at kids' parties. there were partiesl at kids' parties. there were parties with coke _ at kids' parties. there were parties with coke and _ at kids' parties. there were parties with coke and juice _ at kids' parties. there were parties with coke and juice and _ at kids' parties. there were parties with coke and juice and high- at kids' parties. there were parties with coke and juice and high sugar| with coke and juice and high sugar foods~ _ with coke and juice and high sugar foods~ and — with coke and juice and high sugar foods~ and all— with coke and juice and high sugar foods. and all the _ with coke and juice and high sugar foods. and all the things - with coke and juice and high sugar foods. and all the things i - with coke and juice and high sugar foods. and all the things i had - foods. and all the things i had avoided — foods. and all the things i had avoided were _ foods. and all the things i had avoided were suddenly - foods. and all the things i had i avoided were suddenly available, including — avoided were suddenly available, including at — avoided were suddenly available, including at parties— avoided were suddenly available, including at parties at _ avoided were suddenly available, including at parties at schools. i. including at parties at schools. i think— including at parties at schools. i think that — including at parties at schools. i think that peer— including at parties at schools. i think that peer pressure - including at parties at schools. i think that peer pressure is- including at parties at schools. i. think that peer pressure is there.

it's great — think that peer pressure is there. it's great that _ think that peer pressure is there. it's great that they _ think that peer pressure is there. it's great that they are _ think that peer pressure is there. i it's great that they are supervising now _ it's great that they are supervising now when — it's great that they are supervising now when my— it's great that they are supervising now. when my children _ it's great that they are supervising now. when my children were - it's great that they are supervising - now. when my children were younger, there _ now. when my children were younger, there was— now. when my children were younger, there was never— now. when my children were younger, there was never this _ now. when my children were younger, there was never this thing _ now. when my children were younger, there was never this thing of- there was never this thing of brushing _ there was never this thing of brushing teeth _ there was never this thing of brushing teeth at _ there was never this thing of brushing teeth at lunchtime. there was never this thing of. brushing teeth at lunchtime. it there was never this thing of- brushing teeth at lunchtime. it is good _ brushing teeth at lunchtime. it is good to— brushing teeth at lunchtime. it is good to encourage _ brushing teeth at lunchtime. it is good to encourage them - brushing teeth at lunchtime. it is good to encourage them to - brushing teeth at lunchtime. it is good to encourage them to do i brushing teeth at lunchtime. it is good to encourage them to do iti good to encourage them to do it together~ — good to encourage them to do it together~ we _ good to encourage them to do it together. we talk _ good to encourage them to do it together. we talk about - good to encourage them to do it together. we talk about sexuall together. we talk about sexual health. — together. we talk about sexual health. but _ together. we talk about sexual health, but they _ together. we talk about sexual health, but they don't - together. we talk about sexual health, but they don't talk - together. we talk about sexual. health, but they don't talk about dental— health, but they don't talk about dental health _ health, but they don't talk about dental health or— health, but they don't talk about dental health or demonstrate . health, but they don't talk about . dental health or demonstrate what they can _ dental health or demonstrate what they can do — dental health or demonstrate what they can do and _ dental health or demonstrate what they can do— dental health or demonstrate what they can do. and that kids' parties, there is often _ they can do. and that kids' parties, there is often the _ they can do. and that kids' parties, there is often the goody _ they can do. and that kids' parties, there is often the goody bag - they can do. and that kids' parties, there is often the goody bag to - they can do. and that kids' parties, | there is often the goody bag to take home as well. there is often the goody bag to take home as well-— home as well. absolutely. so there is a double — home as well. absolutely. so there is a double aspect. _ home as well. absolutely. so there is a double aspect. it _ home as well. absolutely. so there is a double aspect. it is _ home as well. absolutely. so there is a double aspect. it is a _ home as well. absolutely. so there is a double aspect. it is a general. is a double aspect. it is a general thing _ is a double aspect. it is a general thing across _ is a double aspect. it is a general thing across the _ is a double aspect. it is a general thing across the country. - is a double aspect. it is a general thing across the country. you - is a double aspect. it is a general thing across the country. you can is a double aspect. it is a general. thing across the country. you can do all you _ thing across the country. you can do all you want— thing across the country. you can do all you want to, _ thing across the country. you can do all you want to, but _ thing across the country. you can do all you want to, but as _ thing across the country. you can do all you want to, but as soon - thing across the country. you can do all you want to, but as soon as - thing across the country. you can do all you want to, but as soon as you i all you want to, but as soon as you put them _ all you want to, but as soon as you put them into— all you want to, but as soon as you put them into the _ all you want to, but as soon as you put them into the environment - all you want to, but as soon as you| put them into the environment with other— put them into the environment with other children. _ put them into the environment with other children, that— put them into the environment with other children, that is— put them into the environment with other children, that is where - put them into the environment with other children, that is where you i other children, that is where you need _ other children, that is where you need education. _ other children, that is where you need education. (at— other children, that is where you need education.— other children, that is where you need education. cat in york, let's iet a need education. cat in york, let's get a word _ need education. cat in york, let's get a word from _ need education. cat in york, let's get a word from you. _ need education. cat in york, let's get a word from you. it's - need education. cat in york, let's get a word from you. it's a - need education. cat in york, let's l get a word from you. it's a struggle for you? get a word from you. it's a struggle foryou? it get a word from you. it's a struggle for ou? . ., , .

get a word from you. it's a struggle for ou? . . i, ., ., for you? it certainly is. i had a reiular for you? it certainly is. i had a regular dentist _ for you? it certainly is. i had a regular dentist and _ for you? it certainly is. i had a regular dentist and i _ for you? it certainly is. i had a regular dentist and i took - for you? it certainly is. i had a regular dentist and i took my. for you? it certainly is. i had a - regular dentist and i took my child every— regular dentist and i took my child every six _ regular dentist and i took my child every six months. that was in the south _ every six months. that was in the south then — every six months. that was in the south then i _ every six months. that was in the south. then i moved to york and was told there _ south. then i moved to york and was told there was a five year waiting list. told there was a five year waiting list when— told there was a five year waiting list. when my child needed an emergency dentist, i was sent 50 miles— emergency dentist, i was sent 50 miles away for him to get treated. some _ miles away for him to get treated. some parents wouldn't be able to do that. some parents wouldn't be able to do that it's _ some parents wouldn't be able to do that. it's another expense on top of him actually getting treated. what a ni . htmare. him actually getting treated. what a nightmare- 50 _ him actually getting treated. what a nightmare. 50 miles, _ him actually getting treated. what a nightmare. 50 miles, that— him actually getting treated. what a nightmare. 50 miles, that was - him actually getting treated. what a nightmare. 50 miles, that was the l nightmare. 50 miles, that was the nearest dentist _ nightmare. 50 miles, that was the nearest dentist that _ nightmare. 50 miles, that was the nearest dentist that would - nightmare. 50 miles, that was the nearest dentist that would see - nightmare. 50 miles, that was the l nearest dentist that would see him. which _ nearest dentist that would see him. which brings— nearest dentist that would see him. which brings us— nearest dentist that would see him. which brings us back— nearest dentist that would see him. which brings us back to _ nearest dentist that would see him. which brings us back to the - nearest dentist that would see him. which brings us back to the heart i nearest dentist that would see him. which brings us back to the heart of the problem, professor sondos albadri. you are a professor of paediatric dentistry was that that is the essence of the problem — your kids have trouble with their teeth and it is exacerbated by the

problems we have with nhs dentistry? yes. you are right that it is a complex problem. prevention is great. we encourage funding for tooth—brushing programmes, but there is no national strategy in england for them. scotland have a programme, child smile, and that has reduced children's decay rates by double by having these general public health programmes in schools. we don't have them in england. they are run by local authorities. there is difficulty to access dentistry, which is an issue and there needs to be investment in that. but also, the number of paediatric dentists, you usually need to see a specialist to get anaesthesia and there are only 230 of us. ., ~

get anaesthesia and there are only 230 of us. ., ,, i. ., , ., 230 of us. thank you all. great exerts, 230 of us. thank you all. great exoerts. great _ 230 of us. thank you all. great experts, great cause. - 230 of us. thank you all. great experts, great cause. three i experts, great cause. three politicians coming up for you to ask questions of. it's a regularfor a wednesday. just let me remind you, if you're watching on the telly, we are on the radio as well. you can take as wherever you go. your questions to politicians? at 12 it's the last prime minister's questions before mp�*s break up for the summer. atime of a time of acute political interest. you can listen to it on 5 live with naga and also watch it on bbc two and bbc news. for the next hour with me are: bob seely — conservative mp for isle of wight. baronessjenny chapman — labour peer and member of

the shadow cabinet. and richard foord — liberal democrat mp for tiverton and honiton and the party's spokesperson on defence. what do you want to ask? it is up to you. get in touch. let's be having year. you. and here is the news. the chancellor — jeremy hunt — says the governement isn't complacent and knows high prices are still a huge worry for families. he was responding to the latest inflation figures which fell by more than expected - to 7.9%. the met police has apologised to the family of private detective daniel morgan, who was murdered in 1987. the force has reached a settlement and admitted liability for failings in its investigation of his death. he'd been looking into corruption in the met.

new figures show children in some parts of england are being forced to wait an average of 18 months for dental treatment requiring general anaesthetic. the figures reveal a huge discrepancy between areas — the wait in other places is three weeks. large parts of southern europe are continuing to swelter in record heat, as wildfires rage across the continent. red alert health warnings remain in place for most of italy, spain and greece. we have our three politicians. hello, bob. we have our three politicians. hello. bob-— we have our three politicians. i hello, bob._ you we have our three politicians. - hello, bob._ you are on hello, bob. good morning. you are on television today, _ hello, bob. good morning. you are on television today, and _ hello, bob. good morning. you are on television today, and good _ hello, bob. good morning. you are on television today, and good morning i television today, and good morning to richard, welcome back. liberal

democrat mps spokesperson as well. you both have distinguished military career so there are aspects of that we can address this morning, specifically be interesting when we will come to what you think about the conservative mp tobias ellwood's comments on afghanistan, that's coming up. we want to hearfrom you on that and everything. we want to say good morning to baronessjenny chapman, welcome for the first time, shadow cabinet officer, military again. shadow cabinet office minister. good morning to stop good mornini , minister. good morning to stop good morning. great _ minister. good morning to stop good morning. great to — minister. good morning to stop good morning, great to be _ minister. good morning to stop good morning, great to be here. lets- minister. good morning to stop good morning, great to be here. lets go i morning, great to be here. lets go straiiht morning, great to be here. lets go strai . ht to morning, great to be here. lets go straight to the _ morning, great to be here. lets go straight to the chancellor, - morning, great to be here. lets go straight to the chancellor, jeremy | straight to the chancellor, jeremy hunt. we've had the inflation figures and he has been giving his reaction to the latest inflation figures which have dropped slightly. it is obvious they welcome news that inflation has fallen and it shows

the government and the bank of england, if they are prepared to take difficult decisions, we can win the battle against inflation, but nonetheless, for families up and down the country, prices are still rising much too fast, with a long way to go. if we look at inflation at 3% in the us, five per cent in the eurozone, you can see that if we stick to the plan, we can bring down inflation and that's what this government is also determined today. we are heading in the right direction. we are heading in the right direction-— we are heading in the right direction. , , , , direction. the issue with this is eo - le direction. the issue with this is people here — direction. the issue with this is people here that _ direction. the issue with this is people here that inflation - direction. the issue with this is people here that inflation is - direction. the issue with this is i people here that inflation is going down and they think that's great, things will be getting cheaper, but actually, what we are talking about is the rate of increase has slowed, but things are still getting more expensive, food inflation, still i7%, and i think most people, inflation figures are one thing but the mortgage payments are something else and there are still looking at what is going out each month in what has happened to their pay, and are

still incredibly worried about how to make ends' meet. it's a real shame that we have ended up where we have when we have got the highest inflation in the g7 and you look at the state, no inflationary is 3%, and ., ., the state, no inflationary is 3%, and . ., , . and five and have percent in the eurozone- _ and five and have percent in the eurozone. why _ and five and have percent in the eurozone. why do _ and five and have percent in the eurozone. why do we _ and five and have percent in the eurozone. why do we have - and five and have percent in the eurozone. why do we have this | eurozone. why do we have this problem here specifically, why is it so cute? .,, ., , ., so cute? the obvious thing to point it is the autumn _ so cute? the obvious thing to point it is the autumn budget _ so cute? the obvious thing to point it is the autumn budget of- so cute? the obvious thing to point it is the autumn budget of last - so cute? the obvious thing to point it is the autumn budget of last year which people can call calling the kamikaze budget, which saw a strong reaction from the markets and we've seen interest rates going up and up and up and we know people are paying now thousands more in their mortgage each year, just to stand still. and i think, yes, each year, just to stand still. and ithink, yes, when each year, just to stand still. and i think, yes, when you see the sort of small signs things might, the worst might be over, itjust doesn't

help when you are the person trying to pay your bills and bring up your kids and try to make plans for the future, when you are not seeing any end in sight for user —— as a family. end in sight for user -- as a famil . . ., ., a, ,, ., family. the director of the bank of inileside family. the director of the bank of ingleside there _ family. the director of the bank of ingleside there is _ family. the director of the bank of ingleside there is no _ family. the director of the bank of ingleside there is no effect - family. the director of the bank of ingleside there is no effect at - family. the director of the bank of ingleside there is no effect at the | ingleside there is no effect at the moment— ingleside there is no effect at the moment on mortgage rates so that had a short-term _ moment on mortgage rates so that had a short—term blip and that will pass — a short—term blip and that will pass let _ a short—term blip and that will pass. let me make a couple of points if i may _ pass. let me make a couple of points if i may. there's lots of good news out there. — if i may. there's lots of good news out there, inflation is falling steadily. _ out there, inflation is falling steadily, the cost of living is going — steadily, the cost of living is going up— steadily, the cost of living is going up more slowly, we need to get it back— going up more slowly, we need to get it back down, it's one of rishi sunak's— it back down, it's one of rishi sunak's five targets, but there is good _ sunak's five targets, but there is good news — sunak's five targets, but there is good news out there because it is now falling slightly faster than expected. british industry is getting _ expected. british industry is getting a massive boost today because — getting a massive boost today because there is going to be the announcement of this big battery factory— announcement of this big battery factory that is when the great 9000 'obs factory that is when the great 9000 jobs in _ factory that is when the great 9000 jobs in somerset, lots of other good news _ jobs in somerset, lots of other good news around, we have the third largest— news around, we have the third largest tech sector in the world after— largest tech sector in the world after the — largest tech sector in the world after the united states and china,

strikes _ after the united states and china, strikes are — after the united states and china, strikes are being settled, despite everything that has happened, despite — everything that has happened, despite the printing of money, covidi — despite the printing of money, covid, the cost of coal comedy 94 billion— covid, the cost of coal comedy 94 billion was— covid, the cost of coal comedy 94 billion was spent supporting families to the ukraine work, we still have — families to the ukraine work, we still have a — families to the ukraine work, we still have a high employment economy and that— still have a high employment economy and that is— still have a high employment economy and that is really important. unemployment was near 10% when old unemployment was near10% when old labour— unemployment was near 10% when old labour were last in power, is now below— labour were last in power, is now below 4%— labour were last in power, is now below 4% and we got to be careful we don't throw— below 4% and we got to be careful we don't throw away all these were the important _ don't throw away all these were the important thing is we have worked through— important thing is we have worked through over the last ten years. to answer— through over the last ten years. to answer your— through over the last ten years. to answer your question directly on wires _ answer your question directly on wires energy costs ohio? in the last 25 years _ wires energy costs ohio? in the last 25 years under the coalition, the less conservative, the last labour government, we relied effectively on the spot— government, we relied effectively on the spot price of energy, we did not track, _ the spot price of energy, we did not track, which — the spot price of energy, we did not track, which i know is a very unpopular— track, which i know is a very unpopular issues and people, but the reason _ unpopular issues and people, but the reason why— unpopular issues and people, but the reason why america has very low, very low— reason why america has very low, very low inflation now is because it has become pretty much self—sufficient in energy, so when ukraine _ self—sufficient in energy, so when ukraine were started, they were not impacted _ ukraine were started, they were not impacted by the massive rise in energy— impacted by the massive rise in energy prices in the way we work. the second — energy prices in the way we work. the second point, let me make it,

it's an _ the second point, let me make it, it's an important one, takes between 15 to 20 _ it's an important one, takes between 15 to 20 years to get a nuclear plant _ 15 to 20 years to get a nuclear plant from design to construction to producing _ plant from design to construction to producing energy, and i'm afraid to say, the _ producing energy, and i'm afraid to say, the first 15 years of the century. _ say, the first 15 years of the century, we simply did not plan to build _ century, we simply did not plan to build any— century, we simply did not plan to build any more nuclear plants. labour— build any more nuclear plants. labour came in the 90s evidence that they were _ labour came in the 90s evidence that they were not going to and i'm afraid — they were not going to and i'm afraid those two energy decisions are now— afraid those two energy decisions are now costing us, what the government is now doing, yesterday grant _ government is now doing, yesterday grant said _ government is now doing, yesterday grant said we are thinking long—term, thinking about... | grant said we are thinking long-term, thinking about... i have to let jenny — long-term, thinking about... i have to let jenny back— long-term, thinking about... i have to let jenny back in. _ long-term, thinking about... i have to let jenny back in. loads - long-term, thinking about... i have to let jenny back in. loads of - long-term, thinking about... i have to let jenny back in. loads of stuff i to letjenny back in. loads of stuff in there. to let jenny back in. loads of stuff in there. 3, , to let jenny back in. loads of stuff in there. 1,, , , to let jenny back in. loads of stuff inthere. , , , in there. bob is the first person i've heard _ in there. bob is the first person i've heard say _ in there. bob is the first person i've heard say the _ in there. bob is the first person i've heard say the inflation - in there. bob is the first person i've heard say the inflation rate| i've heard say the inflation rate we've been enduring has got nothing to do whatsoever with liz truss's budget of last autumn. i think it is widely acknowledged that did trigger a dramatic reaction, and the consequence of that has been the increase in mortgage rates. on

energy, i would ask bob... that is absolutely — energy, i would ask bob... that is absolutely untrue. _ energy, i would ask bob. .. that is absolutely untrue. i— energy, i would ask bob... that is absolutely untrue. i did _ energy, i would ask bob... that is absolutely untrue. i did not - absolutely untrue. i did not interrupt — absolutely untrue. i did not interrupt you, _ absolutely untrue. i did not interrupt you, i _ absolutely untrue. i did not interrupt you, i don't - absolutely untrue. i did notj interrupt you, i don't think. absolutely untrue. i did not - interrupt you, i don't think. why did the tories sell our gas storage facility making us more reliant on imported gas? why did they ban onshore wind? why have they failed to invest in insulation of houses? why have they not done any of the long term thing the labour party has been recommending which would make us far more self—sufficient in energy? all of these things could and should have been done before now, and i think people listening will find it slightly odd to have conservatives telling people that things are just getting so much better, let's alljust stick things are just getting so much better, let's all just stick with this and everything will be fine, because i'm telling you now that is not how it feels to people trying to make ends meet up and down the country. make ends meet up and down the count . �* , make ends meet up and down the count .�* i, . ., country. i'm hugely sympathetic to --eole country. i'm hugely sympathetic to people trying _ country. i'm hugely sympathetic to people trying to _ country. i'm hugely sympathetic to people trying to make _ country. i'm hugely sympathetic to people trying to make ends - country. i'm hugely sympathetic to people trying to make ends meet l country. i'm hugely sympathetic to i people trying to make ends meet and what i'm _ people trying to make ends meet and what i'm saying is it's not all doom and gloom — what i'm saying is it's not all doom and gloom. to answer your point very

briefly. _ and gloom. to answer your point very briefly. the _ and gloom. to answer your point very briefly, the director of the bank of england _ briefly, the director of the bank of england says that la sultan's budget has now— england says that la sultan's budget has now no— england says that la sultan's budget has now no impact on inflation and mortgage — has now no impact on inflation and mortgage rates. so what you're saying... — mortgage rates. so what you're saying... we already had the he did not say— saying... we already had the he did not say there was impact, which is what _ not say there was impact, which is what you _ not say there was impact, which is what you tried sea earlier. wait not say there was impact, which is what you tried sea earlier.- what you tried sea earlier. wait a minute, everyone. _ what you tried sea earlier. wait a minute, everyone. bob. - what you tried sea earlier. wait a minute, everyone. bob. what - what you tried sea earlier. wait a i minute, everyone. bob. what you're sa ini minute, everyone. bob. what you're sa in: is minute, everyone. bob. what you're saying isjust — minute, everyone. bob. what you're saying isjust not _ minute, everyone. bob. what you're saying isjust not true. _ minute, everyone. bob. what you're saying is just not true. the - minute, everyone. bob. what you're saying isjust not true. the bank- minute, everyone. bob. what you're saying is just not true. the bank of l saying isjust not true. the bank of england _ saying isjust not true. the bank of england says it is not true. hang on. i'm england says it is not true. hang on- i'm going — england says it is not true. hang on- i'm going to _ england says it is not true. hang on. i'm going to put _ england says it is not true. hang on. i'm going to put the - england says it is not true. hang on. i'm going to put the first - on. i'm going to put the first question to richard, desperate to come in here. from the lib dems possibly first question is one i'm sure you will relish. it comes from tom in leicester. good morning to stop tom in leicester. good morning to sto_ ., all tom in leicester. good morning to stop— all years. - tom in leicester. good morning to| stop_ all years, take stop good morning. all years, take it awa . stop good morning. all years, take it away- my — stop good morning. all years, take it away. my question _ stop good morning. all years, take it away. my question is, _ stop good morning. all years, take it away. my question is, why - stop good morning. all years, take it away. my question is, why isn't l it away. my question is, why isn't child benefits _ it away. my question is, why isn't child benefits fader _ it away. my question is, why isn't child benefits fader for _ it away. my question is, why isn't child benefits fader for parents i it away. my question is, why isn'tj child benefits fader for parents of twins and multiples?— child benefits fader for parents of twins and multiples? well, tom, i

think that it's — twins and multiples? well, tom, i think that it's a _ twins and multiples? well, tom, i think that it's a great _ twins and multiples? well, tom, i think that it's a great question. . think that it's a great question. child _ think that it's a great question. child benefit, _ think that it's a great question. child benefit, as _ think that it's a great question. child benefit, as we _ think that it's a great question. child benefit, as we know, - think that it's a great question. child benefit, as we know, thisj think that it's a great question. . child benefit, as we know, this cat at two _ child benefit, as we know, this cat at two children, _ child benefit, as we know, this cat at two children, almost _ child benefit, as we know, this cat at two children, almost as - child benefit, as we know, this cat at two children, almost as if - child benefit, as we know, this catl at two children, almost as if people were somehow— at two children, almost as if people were somehow going _ at two children, almost as if people were somehow going about - at two children, almost as if people were somehow going about their i were somehow going about their family— were somehow going about their family planning _ were somehow going about their family planning with _ were somehow going about their family planning with child - were somehow going about their| family planning with child benefit payments — family planning with child benefit payments and _ family planning with child benefit payments and main _ family planning with child benefit payments and main —— _ family planning with child benefit payments and main —— capped. l family planning with child benefit i payments and main —— capped. we family planning with child benefit - payments and main —— capped. we know that is— payments and main —— capped. we know that is not— payments and main —— capped. we know that is not how— payments and main —— capped. we know that is not how making _ payments and main —— capped. we know that is not how making families - that is not how making families works— that is not how making families works at— that is not how making families works at all~ _ that is not how making families works at all. i _ that is not how making families works at all. i will _ that is not how making families works at all. i will be _ that is not how making families| works at all. i will be interested in the _ works at all. i will be interested in the moment _ works at all. i will be interested in the moment to _ works at all. i will be interested in the moment to hear - works at all. i will be interested in the moment to hear about i works at all. i will be interested i in the moment to hear about why you asked _ in the moment to hear about why you asked the _ in the moment to hear about why you asked the question... _ in the moment to hear about why you asked the question... can _ in the moment to hear about why you asked the question. . ._ asked the question... can i put it into context? _ asked the question... can i put it into context? and _ asked the question... can i put it into context? and then _ asked the question... can i put it into context? and then come i asked the question... can i put it i into context? and then come straight back. because keir starmer has refused to abolish the two child limit on claiming some benefits and he has been challenged from within his own party on that and within his own shadow cabinet, and he has faced something of a backlash, and the child poverty action group estimates removing the limit would cost 1.3 billion a year but would lift 250,000 children out of poverty overnight. interestingly, andrew

neil, who would not necessarily be comfortable sitting in the current shadow cabinet, he said that we can absolutely afford this.— absolutely afford this. thank you for that context. _ absolutely afford this. thank you for that context. i _ absolutely afford this. thank you for that context. i was _ absolutely afford this. thank you for that context. i was also - absolutely afford this. thank you i for that context. i was also curious to know _ for that context. i was also curious to know whether— for that context. i was also curious to know whether tom _ for that context. i was also curious to know whether tom has - for that context. i was also curious to know whether tom has got i for that context. i was also curious to know whether tom has got anyi to know whether tom has got any personal— to know whether tom has got any personal experience _ to know whether tom has got any personal experience here. - to know whether tom has got any personal experience here. he i to know whether tom has got any. personal experience here. he talks about— personal experience here. he talks about twins, — personal experience here. he talks about twins, triplets. _ personal experience here. he talks about twins, triplets. if— personal experience here. he talks about twins, triplets. if you - personal experience here. he talks about twins, triplets. if you are i about twins, triplets. if you are somebody— about twins, triplets. if you are somebody who _ about twins, triplets. if you are somebody who has _ about twins, triplets. if you are somebody who has triplets, i about twins, triplets. if you are| somebody who has triplets, you about twins, triplets. if you are i somebody who has triplets, you are potentially — somebody who has triplets, you are potentially only _ somebody who has triplets, you are potentially only going _ somebody who has triplets, you are potentially only going to _ somebody who has triplets, you are potentially only going to receive i potentially only going to receive child benefit— potentially only going to receive child benefit if— potentially only going to receive child benefit if you _ potentially only going to receive child benefit if you are - potentially only going to receive child benefit if you are made i child benefit if you are made unemployed _ child benefit if you are made unemployed for— child benefit if you are made unemployed for two - child benefit if you are made unemployed for two of i child benefit if you are made| unemployed for two of those child benefit if you are made - unemployed for two of those three children. _ unemployed for two of those three children, which— unemployed for two of those three children, which to _ unemployed for two of those three children, which to me _ unemployed for two of those three children, which to me seems- unemployed for two of those three i children, which to me seems entirely discriminatory — children, which to me seems entirely discriminatory. this _ children, which to me seems entirely discriminatory. this is _ children, which to me seems entirely discriminatory. this is a _ children, which to me seems entirely discriminatory. this is a policy- discriminatory. this is a policy that— discriminatory. this is a policy that absolutely _ discriminatory. this is a policy that absolutely is _ discriminatory. this is a policy that absolutely is awful - discriminatory. this is a policy that absolutely is awful for i discriminatory. this is a policy. that absolutely is awful for child poverty — that absolutely is awful for child poverty rates _ that absolutely is awful for child poverty rates in _ that absolutely is awful for child poverty rates in this _ that absolutely is awful for child poverty rates in this country, i poverty rates in this country, andm — poverty rates in this country, andm i— poverty rates in this country, andm ididn't_ poverty rates in this country, and... i didn't really- poverty rates in this country, and... i didn't really have - poverty rates in this country, and... i didn't really have a l poverty rates in this country, - and... ididn't really have a chance and... i didn't really have a chance 'ust and... i didn't really have a chance just to _ and... i didn't really have a chance just to see — and... i didn't really have a chance just to see if— and... i didn't really have a chance just to see if your _ and... i didn't really have a chance just to see if your word _ and... i didn't really have a chance just to see if your word is - and... i didn't really have a chance just to see if your word is also - just to see if your word is also about— just to see if your word is also about inflation, _ just to see if your word is also about inflation, but— just to see if your word is also about inflation, but on- just to see if your word is also about inflation, but on top - just to see if your word is also about inflation, but on top ofi just to see if your word is also i about inflation, but on top of the fact that — about inflation, but on top of the fact that we _ about inflation, but on top of the fact that we are _ about inflation, but on top of the fact that we are seeing _

about inflation, but on top of the fact that we are seeing inflationi about inflation, but on top of the. fact that we are seeing inflation at 7~9%_ fact that we are seeing inflation at 79% when— fact that we are seeing inflation at 7.9% when grocery— fact that we are seeing inflation at 7.9% when grocery bills _ fact that we are seeing inflation at 7.9% when grocery bills have - fact that we are seeing inflation at| 7.9% when grocery bills have gone fact that we are seeing inflation at. 7.9% when grocery bills have gone up £830 in _ 7.9% when grocery bills have gone up £830 in the _ 7.9% when grocery bills have gone up £830 in the last— 7.9% when grocery bills have gone up £830 in the last year. _ 7.9% when grocery bills have gone up £830 in the last year. so _ 7.9% when grocery bills have gone up £830 in the last year. so for - 7.9% when grocery bills have gone up £830 in the last year. so for a - £830 in the last year. so for a family— £830 in the last year. so for a family that _ £830 in the last year. so for a family that is _ £830 in the last year. so for a family that is in _ £830 in the last year. so for a family that is in unfortunate . family that is in unfortunate circumstances, _ family that is in unfortunate circumstances, perhaps- family that is in unfortunate i circumstances, perhaps loses family that is in unfortunate - circumstances, perhaps loses its main _ circumstances, perhaps loses its main earner, _ circumstances, perhaps loses its main earner, these _ circumstances, perhaps loses its main earner, these are - circumstances, perhaps loses its. main earner, these are absolutely unsustainable _ main earner, these are absolutely unsustainable time _ main earner, these are absolutely unsustainable time is— main earner, these are absolutely unsustainable time is for- main earner, these are absolutely unsustainable time is for people l unsustainable time is for people with that — unsustainable time is for people with that benefit _ unsustainable time is for people with that benefit cap. _ unsustainable time is for people with that benefit cap. 00 - unsustainable time is for people with that benefit cap.— unsustainable time is for people with that benefit cap. do you want to come back. _ with that benefit cap. do you want to come back, tom? _ with that benefit cap. do you want to come back, tom? what - with that benefit cap. do you want to come back, tom? what do - with that benefit cap. do you want to come back, tom? what do you | with that benefit cap. do you want - to come back, tom? what do you think of the row going on at the moment? element personally for me, back in 2018 we were blessed with two beautiful twin girls, by no means planned big surprise, but we found when claiming for child benefits we were getting more for the eldest who was older by seven minutes than we were for the youngest, and this money is in place to obviously help with food, clothing, child seats, prams, etc, but when you are having to buy double of everything, then you're getting a deduction for the youngest as well, it doesn't help at all four patients that may rely on

benefit. and you think they should abolish the two child limit were they to gain power, labour, do you? absolutely. they to gain power, labour, do you? absolutely-— absolutely. baroness, why are you not doinu absolutely. baroness, why are you not doing this? _ absolutely. baroness, why are you not doing this? we _ absolutely. baroness, why are you not doing this? we can _ absolutely. baroness, why are you not doing this? we can absolutelyl not doing this? we can absolutely afford it. �* , �* , afford it. andrew neil isn't yet in the shadow _ afford it. andrew neil isn't yet in the shadow cabinet _ afford it. andrew neil isn't yet in the shadow cabinet but - afford it. andrew neil isn't yet in the shadow cabinet but who - afford it. andrew neil isn't yet in i the shadow cabinet but who knows. who knows about his economics. the osition who knows about his economics. the position the labour party takes and i voted _ position the labour party takes and i voted against the two child limit when _ i voted against the two child limit when it— i voted against the two child limit when it came in and i think most people _ when it came in and i think most people if— when it came in and i think most people if not everybody in the parliamentary labour party did the same _ parliamentary labour party did the same and — parliamentary labour party did the same and we've been very open about our concerns _ same and we've been very open about our concerns about this policy and the impact — our concerns about this policy and the impact that it has on families. ithink— the impact that it has on families. ithihk what— the impact that it has on families. i think what tom is asking about a slightly— i think what tom is asking about a slightly different because that is child benefit and it has always been the case, _ child benefit and it has always been the case, even when child benefit was universal, it isn't any more because — was universal, it isn't any more because tories abolish that, but it's always — because tories abolish that, but it's always been the case that the eldest _ it's always been the case that the eldest child would have a higher

rate than— eldest child would have a higher rate than any subsequent children, and there — rate than any subsequent children, and there has always been an issue with multiples on that, the question youte _ with multiples on that, the question you're asking me is about the two chitd _ you're asking me is about the two chitd timit— you're asking me is about the two child limit more generally, and obviously— child limit more generally, and obviously the labour party cares deepty— obviously the labour party cares deeply about child poverty. we took 1 mitiion— deeply about child poverty. we took 1 million children into poverty, this is— 1 million children into poverty, this is never going to be something we are _ this is never going to be something we are irr— this is never going to be something we are in any relaxed about, but we have _ we are in any relaxed about, but we have to _ we are in any relaxed about, but we have to do. — we are in any relaxed about, but we have to do, we are to be very clear both— have to do, we are to be very clear both with _ have to do, we are to be very clear both with the people we would like to vote _ both with the people we would like to vote for — both with the people we would like to vote for us also with ourselves, if we _ to vote for us also with ourselves, if we are _ to vote for us also with ourselves, if we are going to make the spending commitment of £1.2 billion then we need _ commitment of £1.2 billion then we need to— commitment of £1.2 billion then we need to be — commitment of £1.2 billion then we need to be crystal clear with people where _ need to be crystal clear with people where that — need to be crystal clear with people where that money is going to come from _ where that money is going to come from and _ where that money is going to come from and as— where that money is going to come from and as of today we don't know that money— from and as of today we don't know that money would come from were not prepared _ that money would come from were not prepared to _ that money would come from were not prepared to make the commitment because _ prepared to make the commitment because if— prepared to make the commitment because if we go around doing that and that— because if we go around doing that and that when power on the back of those _ and that when power on the back of those commitments, we have to stick to them, _ those commitments, we have to stick to them, you — those commitments, we have to stick to them, you can't win and then not deliver— to them, you can't win and then not deliver the — to them, you can't win and then not deliver the things you have

situations change. situations do chan . e situations change. situations do change and _ situations change. situations do change and when _ situations change. situations do change and when the _ situations change. situations do change and when the situation i change and when the situation changes, — change and when the situation changes, mines change, what else can you do? _ changes, mines change, what else can you do? i_ changes, mines change, what else can you do? i think it would be very wrong _ you do? i think it would be very wrong for— you do? i think it would be very wrong for us to come in unfunded, spending _ wrong for us to come in unfunded, spending commitments that we don't know who _ spending commitments that we don't know who we get the money from, there _ know who we get the money from, there would be a consequence, as we saw tast— there would be a consequence, as we saw last autumn with that budget where _ saw last autumn with that budget where there were unfunded commitments, and then you end up making— commitments, and then you end up making things worse for people, to the discipline the labour party has around _ the discipline the labour party has around making spending commitments, it needs _ around making spending commitments, it needs to— around making spending commitments, it needs to be there, is the right thing _ it needs to be there, is the right thing to— it needs to be there, is the right thing to do— it needs to be there, is the right thing to do and we want to be a government as a stable economy and can provide _ government as a stable economy and can provide opportunities for people. _ can provide opportunities for people, and you can do that if you 'ust people, and you can do that if you just run— people, and you can do that if you just run around making it and uhfuhded _ just run around making it and unfunded commitments. would lift 250,000 children _ unfunded commitments. would lift 250,000 children out _ unfunded commitments. would lift 250,000 children out of _ unfunded commitments. would lift 250,000 children out of poverty i 250,000 children out of poverty overnight. bob, a scandal in this country, child poverty. sign it is. the element we understand, talking about inflation rates, richard should have been allowed to come in

earlier on this debate... should have been allowed to come in earlier on this debate. . ._ earlier on this debate... apologies. efforts have — earlier on this debate... apologies. efforts have gone _ earlier on this debate... apologies. efforts have gone on _ earlier on this debate... apologies. efforts have gone on with _ earlier on this debate... apologies. efforts have gone on with inflation, | efforts have gone on with inflation, we understand times are tough at the moment, who spent 94 billion, about £330,000 per household in the cost of living crisis, the dwp budget and supporting families to universal credits and other things, i think this year it was estimated to be about 77 and a half billion pounds. so we spent a huge amount on benefits, we have spent a huge amount getting people through the cost of living crisis and the people losing out most at the moment are actually working families and its then we have got to try to think of, benefits have gone up in line with inflation, we are spending 77 billion on benefits, so we think the best way of helping people and we've take another 400 50,010, another 400,000... b. take another 400 50,010, another 400,000. - -_

take another 400 50,010, another 400,000... �* ., ., ., ~ ., , 400,000. .. a lot of working families are on benefits. _ 400,000. .. a lot of working families are on benefits. what _ 400,000. .. a lot of working families are on benefits. what do _ 400,000. .. a lot of working families are on benefits. what do you - 400,000. .. a lot of working families are on benefits. what do you mean? | are on benefits. what do you mean? some art. p, are on benefits. what do you mean? some art. . ., some art. over a third are. the element but — some art. over a third are. the element but if _ some art. over a third are. the element but if you _ some art. over a third are. the element but if you look - some art. over a third are. the element but if you look at - some art. over a third are. the element but if you look at the l some art. over a third are. the i element but if you look at the rate of increase — element but if you look at the rate of increase in pay in the private sector, — of increase in pay in the private sector, it — of increase in pay in the private sector, it is _ of increase in pay in the private sector, it is running between 5—7% which _ sector, it is running between 5—7% which is _ sector, it is running between 5—7% which is below the rate of inflation and if— which is below the rate of inflation and if you — which is below the rate of inflation and if you look also at the benefits, they've gone up in line with inflation, so some of the people — with inflation, so some of the people losing out people not on benefits — people losing out people not on benefits but are not necessarily seeing — benefits but are not necessarily seeing a — benefits but are not necessarily seeing a large rise in their pay packets— seeing a large rise in their pay packets irr— seeing a large rise in their pay packets in the pay packets going up by less— packets in the pay packets going up by less than the cost of living. a growing — by less than the cost of living. a growing economies are important because _ growing economies are important because the best way to the people out of— because the best way to the people out of poverty so i have a high employment economy, which we still have _ employment economy, which we still have. t . employment economy, which we still have. . . .. , employment economy, which we still have. . . , ., employment economy, which we still have. . . , . have. richard, calls and text coming in on this issue. _ have. richard, calls and text coming in on this issue. i'll— have. richard, calls and text coming in on this issue. i'll put _ have. richard, calls and text coming in on this issue. i'll put one - have. richard, calls and text coming in on this issue. i'll put one a - in on this issue. i'll put one a second. you presumably give

limitless child benefit, would you miss is that current policy? taste limitless child benefit, would you miss is that current policy? we are mixin: u- miss is that current policy? we are mixing up to _ miss is that current policy? we are mixing up to things _ miss is that current policy? we are mixing up to things and _ miss is that current policy? we are mixing up to things and some - miss is that current policy? we are mixing up to things and some of. miss is that current policy? we are l mixing up to things and some of the corppositioh — mixing up to things and some of the composition having _ mixing up to things and some of the composition having here. _ mixing up to things and some of the composition having here. we're - composition having here. we're talking — composition having here. we're talking about _ composition having here. we're talking about child _ composition having here. we're talking about child benefit - composition having here. we're talking about child benefit but i composition having here. we're i talking about child benefit but also about _ talking about child benefit but also about the — talking about child benefit but also about the benefits _ talking about child benefit but also about the benefits cap _ talking about child benefit but also about the benefits cap on - talking about child benefit but also| about the benefits cap on universal credit _ about the benefits cap on universal credit payments _ about the benefits cap on universal credit payments for _ about the benefits cap on universal credit payments for more - about the benefits cap on universal credit payments for more than - about the benefits cap on universal credit payments for more than two| credit payments for more than two chitdrem _ credit payments for more than two chitdrem i— credit payments for more than two children. i think— credit payments for more than two children. i think we _ credit payments for more than two children. i think we need _ credit payments for more than two children. i think we need only- credit payments for more than two children. i think we need only look| children. i think we need only look back at— children. i think we need only look back at liberal— children. i think we need only look back at liberal democrat - children. i think we need only look. back at liberal democrat manifestos in 2017 _ back at liberal democrat manifestos in 2017 and — back at liberal democrat manifestos in 2017 and 19 — back at liberal democrat manifestos in 2017 and 19 to _ back at liberal democrat manifestos in 2017 and 19 to see _ back at liberal democrat manifestos in 2017 and 19 to see that _ back at liberal democrat manifestos in 2017 and 19 to see that we - back at liberal democrat manifestos in 2017 and 19 to see that we feel. in 2017 and 19 to see that we feel it was— in 2017 and 19 to see that we feel it was hard — in 2017 and 19 to see that we feel it was hard to _ in 2017 and 19 to see that we feel it was hard to have _ in 2017 and 19 to see that we feel it was hard to have this _ in 2017 and 19 to see that we feel it was hard to have this cap- in 2017 and 19 to see that we feel it was hard to have this cap —— i it was hard to have this cap —— heartless— it was hard to have this cap —— hearttess to _ it was hard to have this cap —— heartless to have _ it was hard to have this cap —— heartless to have this - it was hard to have this cap —— heartless to have this cap - it was hard to have this cap —— - heartless to have this cap imposed on benefits — heartless to have this cap imposed on benefits for— heartless to have this cap imposed on benefits for families _ heartless to have this cap imposed on benefits for families that - heartless to have this cap imposed on benefits for families that have i on benefits for families that have more _ on benefits for families that have more than — on benefits for families that have more than two _ on benefits for families that have more than two children, - on benefits for families that have more than two children, it - more than two children, it absolutely— more than two children, it absolutely has _ more than two children, it absolutely has pushed - more than two children, it absolutely has pushed the more than two children, it - absolutely has pushed the rates of child poverty— absolutely has pushed the rates of child poverty in _ absolutely has pushed the rates of child poverty in this _ absolutely has pushed the rates of child poverty in this country- absolutely has pushed the rates of child poverty in this country up - absolutely has pushed the rates of child poverty in this country up a l child poverty in this country up a great _ child poverty in this country up a great deat — child poverty in this country up a great deat 0h— child poverty in this country up a great deal. on top _ child poverty in this country up a great deal. on top of— child poverty in this country up a great deal. on top of that... - child poverty in this country up a| great deal. on top of that... this cost _ great deal. on top of that... this cost of— great deal. on top of that... this cost of living _ great deal. on top of that... this cost of living crisis, _ great deal. on top of that... this cost of living crisis, the - cost of living crisis, the government— cost of living crisis, the government cut - cost of living crisis, the government cut £20 i cost of living crisis, the government cut £20 a i cost of living crisis, the i government cut £20 a week cost of living crisis, the - government cut £20 a week from universat— government cut £20 a week from universal credit, _ government cut £20 a week from universal credit, so _ government cut £20 a week from universal credit, so all _ government cut £20 a week from universal credit, so all in - government cut £20 a week from universal credit, so all in all i i universal credit, so all in all i think— universal credit, so all in all i think the _ universal credit, so all in all i think the approach _ universal credit, so all in all i think the approach from - universal credit, so all in all i think the approach from this. think the approach from this goverhmeht_ think the approach from this government is— think the approach from this government is an _ think the approach from this government is an uncaring l think the approach from this i government is an uncaring one. i

think, _ government is an uncaring one. i think. atso, — government is an uncaring one. i think. also, we _ government is an uncaring one. i think, also, we need _ government is an uncaring one. i think, also, we need to... - government is an uncaring one. i think, also, we need to... you. government is an uncaring one. i think, also, we need to... you think it is an uncaring _ think, also, we need to... you think it is an uncaring government? i i think, also, we need to... you think it is an uncaring government? i do. | it is an uncaring government? i do. i think it is an uncaring government? i do. ithinkthat — it is an uncaring government? i do. i think that is _ it is an uncaring government? i do. i think that is exactly _ it is an uncaring government? i do. i think that is exactly right. - it is an uncaring government? i do. i think that is exactly right. we in the liberat— i think that is exactly right. we in the liberal democrats _ i think that is exactly right. we in the liberal democrats have - i think that is exactly right. we in the liberal democrats have no. the liberal democrats have no problem — the liberal democrats have no problem with _ the liberal democrats have no problem with producing - the liberal democrats have no problem with producing cost l the liberal democrats have no| problem with producing cost of manifestos, _ problem with producing cost of manifestos, the _ problem with producing cost of manifestos, the institute - problem with producing cost of manifestos, the institute for. problem with producing cost of i manifestos, the institute for fiscal studies _ manifestos, the institute for fiscal studies rated — manifestos, the institute for fiscal studies rated 2017 _ manifestos, the institute for fiscal studies rated 2017 and _ manifestos, the institute for fiscal studies rated 2017 and 2019 - studies rated 2017 and 2019 manifestos _ studies rated 2017 and 2019 manifestos as _ studies rated 2017 and 2019 manifestos as being - studies rated 2017 and 2019 manifestos as being very i studies rated 2017 and 2019 i manifestos as being very much presenting _ manifestos as being very much presenting balanced _ manifestos as being very much presenting balanced budgets. i manifestos as being very much i presenting balanced budgets. what manifestos as being very much presenting balanced budgets. what do ou mean presenting balanced budgets. what do you mean there _ presenting balanced budgets. what do you mean there are _ presenting balanced budgets. what do you mean there are uncaring? - presenting balanced budgets. what do you mean there are uncaring? i'm i you mean there are uncaring? i'm really tree by that. have a think. —— i'm really intrigued by that. sarah in harrogate, what would you like to see?— sarah in harrogate, what would you like to see? good morning, how are ou? i'm like to see? good morning, how are you? i'm fine. _ like to see? good morning, how are you? i'm fine, thank _ like to see? good morning, how are you? i'm fine, thank you. _ like to see? good morning, how are you? i'm fine, thank you. my i like to see? good morning, how are l you? i'm fine, thank you. my husband and i you? i'm fine, thank you. my husband and i spent — you? i'm fine, thank you. my husband and i spent ten _ you? i'm fine, thank you. my husband and i spent ten years _ you? i'm fine, thank you. my husband and i spent ten years making - you? i'm fine, thank you. my husband and i spent ten years making a - and i spent ten years making a decision about having a child, he's a police officer and i'm self—employed, we had twins in the game ten weeks early so on his paternity leave, it finished before they were even biologically ready to be born and on top of that, we only

have a maternity allowance, for one child. so we are really struggling and ijust do not think it is fair. how are they kids? and i just do not think it is fair. how are they kids?— and i just do not think it is fair. how are they kids? they are very well, thank _ how are they kids? they are very well, thank you. _ how are they kids? they are very well, thank you. ford _ how are they kids? they are very well, thank you. ford and - how are they kids? they are very well, thank you. ford and a i how are they kids? they are very well, thank you. ford and a half. well, thank you. ford and a half months old, it has been difficult. yeah, it is hard work, i think i can hear some sound effects in the background, possibly. taylor yeah, we just heard there from richard, it is quite an accusation to level at a government, do you think this government, do you think this government is uncaring, sarah? 1 government is uncaring, sarah? i think, uncaring, there is a lot of people that need help, but i'm a veteran, i've served my country, i've been to afghanistan, i've never been on any kind of benefit until march this year, and when i really

do need the help, it is not there. bob, another veteran, you therefore say the? bob, another veteran, you therefore sa the? , , , , say the? the support is there but it ma be is say the? the support is there but it may be is interesting _ say the? the support is there but it may be is interesting to _ say the? the support is there but it may be is interesting to see - say the? the support is there but it may be is interesting to see that i may be is interesting to see that both— may be is interesting to see that both cases we've heard this about twins, _ both cases we've heard this about twins, sort — both cases we've heard this about twins, sort of unplanned increase in family— twins, sort of unplanned increase in family size — twins, sort of unplanned increase in family size i— twins, sort of unplanned increase in family size. i would say to both cedar— family size. i would say to both cedar and _ family size. i would say to both cedar and richard, this is a caring government and the proof of that is that when— government and the proof of that is that when we have to spend in an emergency, when we had to support families, _ emergency, when we had to support families, we did. we spent 94 billion— families, we did. we spent 94 billion getting people to the cost of living — billion getting people to the cost of living crisis, £3300 per household on average. the dwp budget, — household on average. the dwp budget, helping universal credit, helping _ budget, helping universal credit, helping people who are not earning enough _ helping people who are not earning enough despite being in work or despite — enough despite being in work or despite being out of work is £77.5 billion— despite being out of work is £77.5 billion and — despite being out of work is £77.5 billion and projected for this year. these _ billion and projected for this year. these are — billion and projected for this year. these are very... billion and projected for this year. these are very. . ._ billion and projected for this year. these are very... what would you say to sarah? could _ these are very... what would you say to sarah? could i _ these are very. .. what would you say to sarah? could i ask— these are very... what would you say to sarah? could i ask where - these are very... what would you say to sarah? could i ask where she i to sarah? could i ask where she served in afghanistan? - to sarah? could i ask where she served in afghanistan? you'll i to sarah? could i ask where she i served in afghanistan? you'll make eod and _ served in afghanistan? you'll make

eod and i_ served in afghanistan? you'll make eod and i served in 2011 bomb disposal— eod and i served in 2011 bomb disposal team. eod and i served in 2011 bomb disposalteam. sign eod and i served in 2011 bomb disposal team. sign whereabouts? tricks _ disposal team. sign whereabouts? tricks pprree. disposal team. sign whereabouts? tricks pprree— tricks pprree. whereabouts and afr han? tricks pprree. whereabouts and afghan? everywhere. _ tricks pprree. whereabouts and afghan? everywhere. sinemetl tricks pprree. whereabouts and i afghan? everywhere. sinemet thank ou. i'm afghan? everywhere. sinemet thank you- i'm sorry _ afghan? everywhere. sinemet thank you- i'm sorry to _ afghan? everywhere. sinemet thank you. i'm sorry to hear— afghan? everywhere. sinemet thank you. i'm sorry to hear that _ afghan? everywhere. sinemet thank you. i'm sorry to hear that you i afghan? everywhere. sinemet thank you. i'm sorry to hear that you are i you. i'm sorry to hear that you are struggling- — you. i'm sorry to hear that you are struggling- lboth — you. i'm sorry to hear that you are struggling. both these _ you. i'm sorry to hear that you are struggling. both these cases i you. i'm sorry to hear that you are struggling. both these cases are l struggling. both these cases are about— struggling. both these cases are about twins and maybe there is an argument — about twins and maybe there is an argument to be made about twins being _ argument to be made about twins being an — argument to be made about twins being an exception, i don't know. i do being an exception, i don't know. do think being an exception, i don't know. i do think there should be an exception to the reel. this isn't our fourth or fifth child, we have saved and worked for years, we have our own home, as a self—employed handyman, we made an informed decision, and there is no exception, no help for an exception like this. sinemet you make your point very well. ., , , sinemet you make your point very well. . , , . . well. can usurp the queen and count . well. can usurp the queen and country- we — well. can usurp the queen and country. we have _ well. can usurp the queen and country. we have a _ well. can usurp the queen and country. we have a different . country. we have a different attitude to veterans in this country

from the usa, in the usa veterans and people in the armed forces are absolutely revered. and given such respect. do you think it is very different here?— respect. do you think it is very different here? absolutely. my husband and _ different here? absolutely. my husband and i _ different here? absolutely. my husband and i actually - different here? absolutely. my husband and i actually served i different here? absolutely. my| husband and i actually served in different here? absolutely. my i husband and i actually served in the same unit the second time around when we went, so when we went to canada, we were treated so well over there, discounts, help. it isjust not the same here. i there, discounts, help. it is 'ust not the same here.i there, discounts, help. it is 'ust not the same here. i will 'ust say, johnn not the same here. i will 'ust say, johnny mrer * not the same here. i will 'ust say, johnny mercer, also i not the same here. i will 'ust say, johnny mercer, also a i not the same here. i willjust say, johnny mercer, also a veteran, i not the same here. i willjust say, i johnny mercer, also a veteran, eod, anyone _ johnny mercer, also a veteran, eod, anyone in— johnny mercer, also a veteran, eod, anyone in eod has my absolute respect, — anyone in eod has my absolute respect, i— anyone in eod has my absolute respect, i spent a bit of time with them _ respect, i spent a bit of time with them, they— respect, i spent a bit of time with them, they do an amazing job and i went— them, they do an amazing job and i went out— them, they do an amazing job and i went out with them the week after one of— went out with them the week after one of the — went out with them the week after one of the colleagues had been killed _ one of the colleagues had been killed in— one of the colleagues had been killed in an explosion, so many thanks — killed in an explosion, so many thanks. johnny mercer is doing really— thanks. johnny mercer is doing really important and good work making — really important and good work making sure veterans are getting a much _ making sure veterans are getting a much better deal in this country, and whether you think it is enough, we are _ and whether you think it is enough, we are making huge strides in

improving the deal for veterans and ben wallace in one of his final statements as secretary of state yesterday, i thought he was a fabulous _ yesterday, i thought he was a fabulous and with a good secretary of state, _ fabulous and with a good secretary of state, has pledged another 400 million _ of state, has pledged another 400 million for— of state, has pledged another 400 million for service personnel housing _ million for service personnel housing to make sure that none of that housing, none of our service personnel— that housing, none of our service personnel housing and ollie barracks and estates throughout the uk are substandard in the future, so we are doing _ substandard in the future, so we are doing more. — substandard in the future, so we are doing more, whether you think it is not, doing more, whether you think it is not. we _ doing more, whether you think it is not. we are — doing more, whether you think it is not, we are doing much more than certainty— not, we are doing much more than certainty we — not, we are doing much more than certainly we were doing in previous years— certainly we were doing in previous years and _ certainly we were doing in previous years and afghan and iraq were both wake-up— years and afghan and iraq were both wake—up calls. years and afghan and iraq were both wake-up calls-— wake-up calls. what they do say in america and _ wake-up calls. what they do say in america and i'm _ wake-up calls. what they do say in america and i'm sure _ wake-up calls. what they do say in america and i'm sure a _ wake-up calls. what they do say in america and i'm sure a lot - wake-up calls. what they do say in america and i'm sure a lot of i wake-up calls. what they do say in i america and i'm sure a lot of people would want me to thank you for your service, thank you for everything you have done for us, sarah, and i wish you well with the twins, a right handful, but it has also got a lot of love in the house. thank you, sarah. ., ~ lot of love in the house. thank you, sarah. e, ~' ,, , . lot of love in the house. thank you, sarah. . ,, i. , . , sarah. thank you very much. cheers. i love the sound _ sarah. thank you very much. cheers. i love the sound effects. _ sarah. thank you very much. cheers. i love the sound effects. i'm - sarah. thank you very much. cheers. i love the sound effects. i'm going i i love the sound effects. i'm going to play guys the clip, we were brought varies slickly by sarah on to afghanistan and i want to play

you this, jenny and richard can respond first. any video on his twitter feed, respond first. any video on his twitterfeed, tobias ellwood, a high—ranking tory mp, and defence committee, he explained why it was worth the uk re—engaging with the taliban. it worth the uk re-engaging with the taliban. ., , worth the uk re-engaging with the taliban. ._ , worth the uk re-engaging with the taliban. , , ., worth the uk re-engaging with the taliban. , . ., , taliban. it may be hard to believe that security _ taliban. it may be hard to believe that security has _ taliban. it may be hard to believe that security has vastly _ taliban. it may be hard to believe j that security has vastly improved, corruption is down on the opium trade has all but disappeared. pylons distribute electricity to the cities, solar panels are now everywhere, irrigation pumps allowing more crops to grow, and the largest charity removing mains and this ordinance, allowing more and more afghans to farm safely again. here is the dilemma. why didn't these game changing programmes happen when nato was here? and after nato's dramatic departure, should the west now engage with the taliban? we appreciate this war

weary nation is for the moment accepting a more authoritarian leadership in exchange for stability. leadership in exchange for stabili . , . . ., leadership in exchange for stabili . , . . stability. interesting. what do you think of that, _ stability. interesting. what do you think of that, jenny? _ stability. interesting. what do you think of that, jenny? may - stability. interesting. what do you think of that, jenny? may be i stability. interesting. what do you think of that, jenny? may be just. think of that, jenny? may be just have to hold our noses and swallow hard and be pragmatic about it, we deal with other countries that do appalling things to their people, but on the other hand it is unforgivable, the attitude to women, to lgbt queue of people, is a dilemma or do you draw a line in the sand on this one, baroness? the labour sand on this one, baroness? the labour party _ sand on this one, baroness? i1e: labour party position, sand on this one, baroness? t1e: labour party position, we sand on this one, baroness? tie: labour party position, we draw a line, similarto labour party position, we draw a line, similar to that of many other allies. we don't engage politically with the taliban. we think that would legitimise what they're doing and look at what has happened with women and in afghanistan and we don't want to in any way give the impression that we are aligned with that, it would be diplomatically very... i think it is extraordinary

what you think is the rare very. .. i think it is extraordinary what you think is the- very... i think it is extraordinary what you think is the we engage with countries committing _ what you think is the we engage with countries committing genocide. i countries committing genocide. tobias ellwood has gone off on a frolic of his own, from what i can tell, and said some extraordinary things to a very homely soundtrack, i don't know what he was thinking, i should imagine members of the committee on which he serves are flabbergasted by this and i had not actually heard the track played before but i find it extraordinary, i can't imagine for a second this is the position of the government. but he is a conservative mp and i will leave it to bob to try and explain, if you can, quite what might have beenin if you can, quite what might have been in his head. there is always an argument for engagement, but that has to be done at the right time and has to be done at the right time and has to be done at the right time and has to be done alongside your international partners. you don't just unilaterally go and do something like this with a regime like the taliban, and that is the

labour position. the like the taliban, and that is the labour position.— like the taliban, and that is the labour position. the taliban have reacted very _ labour position. the taliban have reacted very positively _ labour position. the taliban have reacted very positively to - labour position. the taliban have reacted very positively to this, i reacted very positively to this, does that not stick in your crawl? jenny asked bob to respond. i does that not stick in your crawl? jenny asked bob to respond. i think to describe it _ jenny asked bob to respond. i think to describe it as _ jenny asked bob to respond. i think to describe it as a _ jenny asked bob to respond. i think to describe it as a frolic _ jenny asked bob to respond. i think to describe it as a frolic is - jenny asked bob to respond. i think to describe it as a frolic is silly i to describe it as a frolic is silly language _ to describe it as a frolic is silly language to start with and i think it was— language to start with and i think it was very— language to start with and i think it was very brave and impressive up tobias _ it was very brave and impressive up tobias to— it was very brave and impressive up tobias to actually go off and see for himself and i suspect there are very few_ for himself and i suspect there are very few people commenting about the stories— very few people commenting about the stories that have actually been to afghanistan. richard and i both serve _ afghanistan. richard and i both serve there, tobias has been an all credit— serve there, tobias has been an all credit to _ serve there, tobias has been an all credit to him. i don't know if i agree — credit to him. i don't know if i agree with _ credit to him. i don't know if i agree with tobias but i respect him for doing _ agree with tobias but i respect him for doing what she has done, i respect — for doing what she has done, i respect him for having an opinion, i respect _ respect him for having an opinion, i respect him — respect him for having an opinion, i respect him for having an opinion, i respect him for having an opinion based _ respect him for having an opinion based on — respect him for having an opinion based on his own personal experience of interacting with people there, and rather thanjust condemning, and rather than just condemning, which _ and rather than just condemning, which i _ and rather thanjust condemning, which i think we do way too much in the society, — which i think we do way too much in the society, rather than engaging intelligently, i think we need to

have _ intelligently, i think we need to have a — intelligently, i think we need to have a difficult conversation about an ethical— have a difficult conversation about an ethical foreign policy, is about engaging. — an ethical foreign policy, is about engaging, is about choosing when to do so _ engaging, is about choosing when to do so and _ engaging, is about choosing when to do so and if— engaging, is about choosing when to do so and if we are so concerned, which _ do so and if we are so concerned, which we — do so and if we are so concerned, which we should be to help women and children. _ which we should be to help women and children, because the taliban's abuse — children, because the taliban's abuse of— children, because the taliban's abuse of them is shocking and vile, there _ abuse of them is shocking and vile, there has— abuse of them is shocking and vile, there has to — abuse of them is shocking and vile, there has to be a question of do you make _ there has to be a question of do you make the _ there has to be a question of do you make the situation worse for everybody in afghan including women and kids— everybody in afghan including women and kids and especially women in education — and kids and especially women in education by not engaging or by engaging? and tobias is arguing very eloquently, and i think the presentation was a bit cheesy and you could — presentation was a bit cheesy and you could have done without the nrusicm — amnesty international say the taliban have committed torture, unlawful arrests, detention of opponents, murder of lgbtq people, absolutely heinous oppression of women and you are saying he has got a point? i women and you are saying he has got a oint? ., women and you are saying he has got a oint? . ., i” women and you are saying he has got a oint? ., ., ,, ., a point? i am saying, do you engage with the taliban _ a point? i am saying, do you engage with the taliban to _ a point? i am saying, do you engage with the taliban to make _ a point? i am saying, do you engage with the taliban to make a _ a point? i am saying, do you engage with the taliban to make a bad - with the taliban to make a bad situation — with the taliban to make a bad situation better, or do you let peopte — situation better, or do you let people die because you don't want to engage _ people die because you don't want to engage because you are making a

political— engage because you are making a political point? these are difficult judgments. if you're trying to do serious — judgments. if you're trying to do serious statecraft, if you're trying to do _ serious statecraft, if you're trying to do virtue — serious statecraft, if you're trying to do virtue signalling, it's easy. ifyou _ to do virtue signalling, it's easy. ifyou are — to do virtue signalling, it's easy. if you are trying to make the world a better— if you are trying to make the world a better place, do you engage with bad people or people we disagree with, _ bad people or people we disagree with. or— bad people or people we disagree with, or do you try and understand the situation? i with, or do you try and understand the situation?— the situation? i want to bring richard in- — the situation? i want to bring richard in. hold _ the situation? i want to bring richard in. hold fire - the situation? i want to bring richard in. hold fire if - the situation? i want to bring richard in. hold fire if you i the situation? i want to bring - richard in. hold fire if you would. richard in. hold fire if you would. richard foord, statecraft, pragmatism, you don't make things better by not engaging. you pragmatism, you don't make things better by not engaging.— better by not engaging. you don't make things _ better by not engaging. you don't make things better— better by not engaging. you don't make things better by _ better by not engaging. you don't make things better by putting - better by not engaging. you don't make things better by putting a i make things better by putting a commercial— make things better by putting a commercialjingle _ make things better by putting a commercialjingle to— make things better by putting a commercialjingle to the - make things better by putting a i commercialjingle to the backing make things better by putting a . commercialjingle to the backing of your advocacy _ commercialjingle to the backing of your advocacy for— commercialjingle to the backing of your advocacy for a _ commercialjingle to the backing of your advocacy for a detestable - your advocacy for a detestable regime — your advocacy for a detestable regime tike _ your advocacy for a detestable regime like the _ your advocacy for a detestable regime like the taliban. - your advocacy for a detestable l regime like the taliban. should your advocacy for a detestable - regime like the taliban. should the west engage? _ regime like the taliban. should the west engage? not _ regime like the taliban. should the west engage? not at _ regime like the taliban. should the west engage? not at the _ regime like the taliban. should the west engage? not at the moment, regime like the taliban. should the - west engage? not at the moment, no. the timing — west engage? not at the moment, no. the timing is— west engage? not at the moment, no. the timing is att— west engage? not at the moment, no. the timing is all wrong _ west engage? not at the moment, no. the timing is all wrong to _ west engage? not at the moment, no. the timing is all wrong to give - west engage? not at the moment, no. the timing is all wrong to give the - the timing is all wrong to give the taliban— the timing is all wrong to give the taliban any— the timing is all wrong to give the taliban any legitimacy. _ the timing is all wrong to give the taliban any legitimacy. we - the timing is all wrong to give the taliban any legitimacy. we lost i the timing is all wrong to give the . taliban any legitimacy. we lost over 400 great _ taliban any legitimacy. we lost over 400 great peopte _ taliban any legitimacy. we lost over 400 great people from _ taliban any legitimacy. we lost over 400 great people from the -

taliban any legitimacy. we lost over 400 great people from the british . 400 great people from the british army— 400 great people from the british army in _ 400 great people from the british army in afghanistan, _ 400 great people from the british army in afghanistan, and - 400 great people from the british army in afghanistan, and we - 400 great people from the british army in afghanistan, and we did i 400 great people from the british| army in afghanistan, and we did it because _ army in afghanistan, and we did it because we — army in afghanistan, and we did it because we believe _ army in afghanistan, and we did it because we believe their- army in afghanistan, and we did it because we believe their whole . army in afghanistan, and we did iti because we believe their whole way of was _ because we believe their whole way of was reprehensible. _ because we believe their whole way of was reprehensible. and - because we believe their whole way of was reprehensible. and also - of was reprehensible. and also because — of was reprehensible. and also because the _ of was reprehensible. and also because the taliban _ of was reprehensible. and also because the taliban harbouredj because the taliban harboured terrorists — because the taliban harboured terrorists who _ because the taliban harboured terrorists who were _ because the taliban harboured terrorists who were a - because the taliban harboured terrorists who were a threat i because the taliban harboured terrorists who were a threat to because the taliban harboured - terrorists who were a threat to the west and _ terrorists who were a threat to the west and caused _ terrorists who were a threat to the west and caused great _ terrorists who were a threat to the west and caused great damage - terrorists who were a threat to the west and caused great damage to| terrorists who were a threat to the i west and caused great damage to the west _ west and caused great damage to the west if— west and caused great damage to the west. ., west and caused great damage to the west. . ., west. if he had delivered that messaue west. if he had delivered that message dryly. _ west. if he had delivered that message dryly, straight - west. if he had delivered that message dryly, straight to - west. if he had delivered that - message dryly, straight to camera, explaining his thought process rather than with a musical backing that sounded like a 1970s visit to bournemouth video, would that have been different? it he bournemouth video, would that have been different?— been different? if he had explained his rationale _ been different? if he had explained his rationale differently, _ been different? if he had explained his rationale differently, i - his rationale differently, i wouldn't _ his rationale differently, i wouldn't have _ his rationale differently, i wouldn't have agreed, . his rationale differently, i| wouldn't have agreed, but his rationale differently, i. wouldn't have agreed, but at his rationale differently, i- wouldn't have agreed, but at least i might— wouldn't have agreed, but at least i might have — wouldn't have agreed, but at least i might have understood. _ wouldn't have agreed, but at least i might have understood. i— wouldn't have agreed, but at least i might have understood. i expect. wouldn't have agreed, but at least i. might have understood. i expect him to say— might have understood. i expect him to say something _ might have understood. i expect him to say something about _ might have understood. i expect him to say something about great - might have understood. i expect him to say something about great powerl to say something about great power competition— to say something about great power competition with _ to say something about great power competition with china _ to say something about great power competition with china and - to say something about great power competition with china and how - competition with china and how afghanistan _ competition with china and how afghanistan was _ competition with china and how afghanistan was going - competition with china and how afghanistan was going to - competition with china and how afghanistan was going to be - afghanistan was going to be contested _ afghanistan was going to be contested in _

afghanistan was going to be contested in the _ afghanistan was going to be contested in the same - afghanistan was going to be contested in the same way i afghanistan was going to be i contested in the same way that afghanistan was going to be - contested in the same way that the british— contested in the same way that the british empire _ contested in the same way that the british empire in— contested in the same way that the british empire in india _ contested in the same way that the british empire in india contested i contested in the same way that the british empire in india contested it| british empire in india contested it in the _ british empire in india contested it in the 19th — british empire in india contested it in the 19th century. _ british empire in india contested it in the 19th century. i— british empire in india contested it in the 19th century. i wouldn't - british empire in india contested it| in the 19th century. i wouldn't have agreed _ in the 19th century. i wouldn't have agreed even — in the 19th century. i wouldn't have agreed even then. _ in the 19th century. i wouldn't have agreed even then. but _ in the 19th century. i wouldn't have agreed even then. but to _ in the 19th century. i wouldn't have agreed even then. but to the - in the 19th century. i wouldn't have agreed even then. but to the point| agreed even then. but to the point made _ agreed even then. but to the point made earlier— agreed even then. but to the point made earlier about _ agreed even then. but to the point made earlier about other- agreed even then. but to the pointj made earlier about other members agreed even then. but to the point i made earlier about other members of the defence _ made earlier about other members of the defence committee, _ made earlier about other members of the defence committee, mark- made earlier about other members of| the defence committee, mark fran ois was scathing _ the defence committee, mark fran ois was scathing in— the defence committee, mark fran ois was scathing in the _ the defence committee, mark fran ois was scathing in the house _ the defence committee, mark fran ois was scathing in the house of- the defence committee, mark fran ois| was scathing in the house of commons yesterday— was scathing in the house of commons yesterday that — was scathing in the house of commons yesterday that this _ was scathing in the house of commons yesterday that this might _ was scathing in the house of commons yesterday that this might have - was scathing in the house of commons yesterday that this might have been i yesterday that this might have been done in _ yesterday that this might have been done in the — yesterday that this might have been done in the name _ yesterday that this might have been done in the name of— yesterday that this might have been done in the name of the _ yesterday that this might have been done in the name of the chair- yesterday that this might have been done in the name of the chair of- yesterday that this might have been done in the name of the chair of the house _ done in the name of the chair of the house of— done in the name of the chair of the house of commons _ done in the name of the chair of the house of commons defence - done in the name of the chair of the - house of commons defence committee. i house of commons defence committee. i genuinely— house of commons defence committee. i genuinety respect _ house of commons defence committee. i genuinely respect tobias. _ house of commons defence committee. i genuinely respect tobias. i— house of commons defence committee. i genuinely respect tobias. i like - i genuinely respect tobias. i like the way— i genuinely respect tobias. i like the way he — i genuinely respect tobias. i like the way he is _ i genuinely respect tobias. i like the way he is prepared - i genuinely respect tobias. i like the way he is prepared to - i genuinely respect tobias. i like the way he is prepared to say. i genuinely respect tobias. i like - the way he is prepared to say things that are _ the way he is prepared to say things that are not — the way he is prepared to say things that are not popular— the way he is prepared to say things that are not popular with _ the way he is prepared to say things that are not popular with the - the way he is prepared to say things that are not popular with the rest i that are not popular with the rest of the _ that are not popular with the rest of the conservative _ that are not popular with the rest of the conservative party. - that are not popular with the rest of the conservative party. wherej that are not popular with the rest l of the conservative party. where is the liberat— of the conservative party. where is the liberal democrats _ of the conservative party. where is the liberal democrats on _ of the conservative party. where is the liberal democrats on this - of the conservative party. where is the liberal democrats on this are l of the conservative party. where isi the liberal democrats on this are on the liberal democrats on this are on the side _ the liberal democrats on this are on the side of— the liberal democrats on this are on the side of afghan _ the liberal democrats on this are on the side of afghan women _ the liberal democrats on this are on the side of afghan women and - the liberal democrats on this are on the side of afghan women and girls. j the side of afghan women and girls. wendy— the side of afghan women and girls. wendy chamberlain _ the side of afghan women and girls. wendy chamberlain has _ the side of afghan women and girls. wendy chamberlain has been - the side of afghan women and girls. wendy chamberlain has been a - the side of afghan women and girls. i wendy chamberlain has been a great champion— wendy chamberlain has been a great champion of— wendy chamberlain has been a great champion of afghan _ wendy chamberlain has been a great champion of afghan women - wendy chamberlain has been a great champion of afghan women and - wendy chamberlain has been a great champion of afghan women and girlsj champion of afghan women and girls and lead _ champion of afghan women and girls and lead a _ champion of afghan women and girls and lead a debate _ champion of afghan women and girls and lead a debate in _ champion of afghan women and girls and lead a debate in the _ champion of afghan women and girls and lead a debate in the house - champion of afghan women and girls and lead a debate in the house of. and lead a debate in the house of commons — and lead a debate in the house of commons about— and lead a debate in the house of commons about their— and lead a debate in the house of commons about their treatment i and lead a debate in the house ofl commons about their treatment at and lead a debate in the house of- commons about their treatment at the hands _ commons about their treatment at the hands of— commons about their treatment at the hands of the _ commons about their treatment at the hands of the taliban _ commons about their treatment at the hands of the taliban recently. - commons about their treatment at the hands of the taliban recently. you - hands of the taliban recently. you can have your _ hands of the taliban recently. can have your point after the hands of the taliban recentlym can have your point after the news, weather and spot. a couple of texts

— if we don't engage with the taliban, how can we influence things for the better? isolation causes more problems. and this — afghans are accepting an authoritarian leadership and certain areas have progressed, but women's rights are crumbling. we should not negotiate after british people lost their lives for those rights. more to come on that, sorry i'm slightly late. here is the news from giuliano casadei. interest rates are predicted to rise less sharply after the uk saw a surprise drop in inflation this month. experts say the bank of england is now under less pressure to act after inflation slowed to 7.9% injune, down from 8.7% last month. the metropolitan police has accepted liability for failings in its investigation into the murder

36 years ago of daniel morgan. the private investigator's family say he was looking into police corruption at the time he was killed. new data shows children in some parts of england are being forced to wait an average of 18 months for dental treatment requiring general anaesthetic. the information obtained by the liberal democrats shows the wait in other places is just three weeks. the government says it's working to improve access to nhs dentistry. another 100 past and present mcdonald's workers have told the bbc they've been groped or bullied at the fast food chain. yesterday the bbc revealed accounts of toxic culture in mcdonald's uk restaurants. the company says it takes all the allegations extremely seriously. jon wilkinson has the sport. england must win the fourth ashes test at old trafford if they're to have a chance to regaining the urn. our reporter eleanor oldroyd is there half an hour before play starts. yes, welcome to our cloudy old

trafford. england have won the toss and they will bowl first, so that means we will see james anderson bowling from the james anderson and probably for the last time at a match from old trafford. england make one change to their line—up. australia make two, cameron green and josh hazlewood return as they go in without a specialist spinner. but england have won the toss and they will bowl first. thanks, elly. there's build—up and commentary on 5 sports extra right now. england women's nat sciver brunt says they feel they've won a "moral victory" over australia in their series. the multi—format competition was drawn, with the tourists retaining the ashes, but england won both the one—day international and t20 series. leeds united have signed the chelsea's welsh international defender ethan ampadu. the french liguei the french ligue i side have announced the signing of benjamin mendy. he announced the signing of ben'amin mend . ., , ., ., announced the signing of ben'amin mend. ., ., mendy. he was out of contract with manchester — mendy. he was out of contract with manchester city — mendy. he was out of contract with manchester city and _ mendy. he was out of contract with manchester city and was _ mendy. he was out of contract with manchester city and was last - mendy. he was out of contract with manchester city and was last week| manchester city and was last week cleared of rape charges at chester crown court. chelsea's welsh international defender ethan ampadu hasjoined leeds united.

whilst burnley have brought in the switzerland forward zeki amdouni from basel — he was top scorer in the europa conference league last season. and the nigerian 100m hurdles world record holder tobi amusan insists she's a "clean athlete". that's despite being accused of allegedly missing three doping tests. she has been provisionally suspended. we have our mp panel today. we have

bob seely from the tories, baroness jenny chapman from labour and richard foord from the lib dems. we are going to get a question from tracy in bournemouth coming up. bob, you wanted to say something. thank ou for you wanted to say something. thank you for letting _ you wanted to say something. thank you for letting me _ you wanted to say something. thank you for letting me back— you wanted to say something. thank you for letting me back in. _ you wanted to say something. thank you for letting me back in. richard said 400 _ you for letting me back in. richard said 400 people lost their lives and i said 400 people lost their lives and lagree, _ said 400 people lost their lives and i agree, comrades i served with killed — i agree, comrades i served with killed. they would say to get the policy _ killed. they would say to get the policy right. i don't know if i agree — policy right. i don't know if i agree with tobias, but i do know we need _ agree with tobias, but i do know we need to— agree with tobias, but i do know we need to get— agree with tobias, but i do know we need to get back to a political culture — need to get back to a political culture in— need to get back to a political culture in this country where we think— culture in this country where we think and — culture in this country where we think and debate and do notjust censor~ — think and debate and do notjust censor~ i— think and debate and do notjust censor. i talked to one old man in afghanistan who refused to send his daughter— afghanistan who refused to send his daughter to school. i asked why, and this was— daughter to school. i asked why, and this was in— daughter to school. i asked why, and this was in the back end of helmand province, _ this was in the back end of helmand province, and it was nothing to do with him _ province, and it was nothing to do with him wanting to control his daughter's or keep them at home or -et daughter's or keep them at home or get them _ daughter's or keep them at home or get them married aged eight. he was 'ust get them married aged eight. he was just concerned that they were going to get— just concerned that they were going to get kidnapped on the way because there was— to get kidnapped on the way because there was no security, because we had failed — there was no security, because we

had failed to provide security, because — had failed to provide security, because we talked about educating -irls because we talked about educating girls before we had made the country safe. girls before we had made the country safe so _ girls before we had made the country safe so it's— girls before we had made the country safe. so it's important that we understand the nuance and the real debate _ understand the nuance and the real debate was that for people who have never _ debate was that for people who have never been _ debate was that for people who have never been there, it's very easy to censure _ never been there, it's very easy to censure it — never been there, it's very easy to censure it is— never been there, it's very easy to censure. it is more difficult to go there _ censure. it is more difficult to go there and — censure. it is more difficult to go there and engage. i would welcome a political— there and engage. i would welcome a political culture in this country where — political culture in this country where we _ political culture in this country where we listen. i'm not sure i agree — where we listen. i'm not sure i agree with _ where we listen. i'm not sure i agree with tobias, but congratulations on him for going and trying _ congratulations on him for going and trying to— congratulations on him for going and trying to say something serious. it hasn't _ trying to say something serious. it hasn't proved popular, but good for him for— hasn't proved popular, but good for him for doing so.— him for doing so. let's get a question _ him for doing so. let's get a question from _ him for doing so. let's get a question from tracey. - go, tracey. i am an nhs health professional. _ go, tracey. i am an nhs health professional. i— go, tracey. i am an nhs health professional. i have _ go, tracey. i am an nhs health professional. i have a _ go, tracey. i am an nhs health professional. i have a question | go, tracey. i am an nhs health i professional. i have a question for our mps _ professional. i have a question for our mps relating _ professional. i have a question for our mps relating to— professional. i have a question for our mps relating to climate - professional. i have a question for. our mps relating to climate change. you are _ our mps relating to climate change. you are mps— our mps relating to climate change.

you are mps and— our mps relating to climate change. you are mps and you _ our mps relating to climate change. you are mps and you will— our mps relating to climate change. you are mps and you will be - our mps relating to climate change. | you are mps and you will be creating policy _ you are mps and you will be creating policy and _ you are mps and you will be creating policy and voting _ you are mps and you will be creating policy and voting on _ you are mps and you will be creating policy and voting on its _ you are mps and you will be creating policy and voting on its relating - you are mps and you will be creating policy and voting on its relating to i policy and voting on its relating to climate _ policy and voting on its relating to climate change, _ policy and voting on its relating to climate change, which _ policy and voting on its relating to climate change, which is - policy and voting on its relating to climate change, which is an- policy and voting on its relating to climate change, which is an issuel climate change, which is an issue that is— climate change, which is an issue that is going _ climate change, which is an issue that is going to— climate change, which is an issue that is going to harm _ climate change, which is an issue that is going to harm every- climate change, which is an issuej that is going to harm every single person— that is going to harm every single person you — that is going to harm every single person you represent _ that is going to harm every single person you represent and - that is going to harm every single i person you represent and everyone that is going to harm every single - person you represent and everyone we know and _ person you represent and everyone we know and care — person you represent and everyone we know and care about. _ person you represent and everyone we know and care about. it's _ person you represent and everyone we know and care about. it's the - know and care about. it's the defining _ know and care about. it's the defining health— know and care about. it's the defining health issue - know and care about. it's the defining health issue of- know and care about. it's the defining health issue of our. know and care about. it's the - defining health issue of our lives. in defining health issue of our lives. in other— defining health issue of our lives. in other countries, _ defining health issue of our lives. in other countries, it's— defining health issue of our lives. | in other countries, it's compulsory for all— in other countries, it's compulsory for all mps — in other countries, it's compulsory for all mps to— in other countries, it's compulsory for all mps to receive _ in other countries, it's compulsory for all mps to receive climate - for all mps to receive climate education _ for all mps to receive climate education and _ for all mps to receive climate education and pass _ for all mps to receive climate education and pass an - for all mps to receive climate - education and pass an assessment on it. education and pass an assessment on it for— education and pass an assessment on it for ekample. _ education and pass an assessment on it forexample, in— education and pass an assessment on it. for example, in argentina, - education and pass an assessment on it. for example, in argentina, this. it. for example, in argentina, this is called _ it. for example, in argentina, this is called yolanda's _ it. for example, in argentina, this is called yolanda's law. _ it. for example, in argentina, this is called yolanda's law. but - it. for example, in argentina, this is called yolanda's law. but in - it. for example, in argentina, this is called yolanda's law. but in the| is called yolanda's law. but in the uk, very— is called yolanda's law. but in the uk, very few— is called yolanda's law. but in the uk, very few mps _ is called yolanda's law. but in the uk, very few mps have _ is called yolanda's law. but in the uk, very few mps have a - is called yolanda's law. but in the uk, very few mps have a full- uk, very few mps have a full understanding _ uk, very few mps have a full understanding of— uk, very few mps have a full understanding of the - uk, very few mps have a full understanding of the science uk, very few mps have a full- understanding of the science and implications _ understanding of the science and implications. only— understanding of the science and implications. only 10%_ understanding of the science and implications. only 10% of- understanding of the science and implications. only 10% of mps i understanding of the science and i implications. only 10% of mps turned up implications. only 10% of mps turned up to a _ implications. only 10% of mps turned up to a briefing — implications. only 10% of mps turned up to a briefing by— implications. only 10% of mps turned up to a briefing by sir _ implications. only 10% of mps turned up to a briefing by sir patrick- up to a briefing by sir patrick vallance _ up to a briefing by sir patrick vallance last _ up to a briefing by sir patrick vallance last year, _ up to a briefing by sir patrick vallance last year, and i up to a briefing by sir patrick vallance last year, and this i up to a briefing by sir patrick. vallance last year, and this was up to a briefing by sir patrick- vallance last year, and this was the same _ vallance last year, and this was the same briefing — vallance last year, and this was the same briefing that _ vallance last year, and this was the same briefing that boris _ vallance last year, and this was the same briefing that borisjohnson i same briefing that borisjohnson described — same briefing that borisjohnson described as _ same briefing that borisjohnson described as revelatory. - same briefing that borisjohnson described as revelatory. he i same briefing that borisjohnson described as revelatory. he said| same briefing that borisjohnson. described as revelatory. he said it was his— described as revelatory. he said it was his road — described as revelatory. he said it was his road to _ described as revelatory. he said it was his road to damascus - described as revelatory. he said it. was his road to damascus moment. described as revelatory. he said it- was his road to damascus moment. so my question _ was his road to damascus moment. so my question is, — was his road to damascus moment. so my question is, if— was his road to damascus moment. so my question is. if you— was his road to damascus moment. so my question is, if you don't _ was his road to damascus moment. so my question is, if you don't fully i my question is, if you don't fully understand _ my question is, if you don't fully understand this _ my question is, if you don't fully understand this topic, _ my question is, if you don't fully understand this topic, how - my question is, if you don't fully understand this topic, how is - my question is, if you don't fully understand this topic, how is it. understand this topic, how is it possible — understand this topic, how is it possible that _ understand this topic, how is it possible that you _ understand this topic, how is it possible that you can - understand this topic, how is it possible that you can make - understand this topic, how is iti possible that you can make safe decisions — possible that you can make safe decisions about _ possible that you can make safe decisions about the _ possible that you can make safe decisions about the climate - possible that you can make safe l decisions about the climate action we are _ decisions about the climate action we are going _ decisions about the climate action we are going to— decisions about the climate action we are going to need _ decisions about the climate action we are going to need to _ decisions about the climate action we are going to need to survive? i decisions about the climate action i we are going to need to survive? we did a we are going to need to survive? did a phone—in yesterday on this,

tracey, and one message that came through was that it is woefully inadequate, what politicians are doing, partly because of that time horizon. and seeing beyond that and seeing what they need to do for times when they are no longer in parliament. that is a big problem, isn't it? �* , ., parliament. that is a big problem, isn't it? �*, . . ,, parliament. that is a big problem, isn'tit? �*, . , isn't it? it's a massive problem. but i isn't it? it's a massive problem. but i think _ isn't it? it's a massive problem. but | think of— isn't it? it's a massive problem. but i think of our _ isn't it? it's a massive problem. but i think of our mps _ isn't it? it's a massive problem. but i think of our mps were - isn't it? it's a massive problem. | but i think of our mps were fully briefed — but i think of our mps were fully briefed on — but i think of our mps were fully briefed on the _ but i think of our mps were fully briefed on the science, - but i think of our mps were fully briefed on the science, they- but i think of our mps were fully. briefed on the science, they would see that _ briefed on the science, they would see that it— briefed on the science, they would see that it is— briefed on the science, they would see that it is something _ briefed on the science, they would see that it is something that- briefed on the science, they would see that it is something that is- see that it is something that is harming — see that it is something that is harming beobte _ see that it is something that is harming people now. - see that it is something that is harming people now. in - see that it is something that is harming people now. in the i see that it is something that is- harming people now. in the health settings _ harming people now. in the health settings that — harming people now. in the health settings that i_ harming people now. in the health settings that i work— harming people now. in the health settings that i work in, _ harming people now. in the health settings that i work in, we - harming people now. in the health settings that i work in, we are - settings that i work in, we are seeing — settings that i work in, we are seeing people _ settings that i work in, we are seeing people admitted - settings that i work in, we are seeing people admitted due . settings that i work in, we are | seeing people admitted due to climate — seeing people admitted due to climate change. _ seeing people admitted due to climate change. we _ seeing people admitted due to climate change. we are - seeing people admitted due toi climate change. we are seeing seeing people admitted due to- climate change. we are seeing people die due _ climate change. we are seeing people die due to— climate change. we are seeing people die due to climate _ climate change. we are seeing people die due to climate change _ climate change. we are seeing people die due to climate change right - climate change. we are seeing people die due to climate change right now, i die due to climate change right now, and it's— die due to climate change right now, and it's going — die due to climate change right now, and it's going to— die due to climate change right now, and it's going to amplify— die due to climate change right now, and it's going to amplify and - die due to climate change right now, and it's going to amplify and we - and it's going to amplify and we need _ and it's going to amplify and we need our— and it's going to amplify and we need our politicians _ and it's going to amplify and we need our politicians to - and it's going to amplify and we need our politicians to be - and it's going to amplify and we i need our politicians to be informed so that— need our politicians to be informed so that they— need our politicians to be informed so that they can _ need our politicians to be informed so that they can respond _ so that they can respond effectively. _ so that they can respond effectively.— so that they can respond effectively. so that they can respond effectivel . . . ., ., . effectively. and migration on a hitherto unimaginative - effectively. and migration on a hitherto unimaginative scale i effectively. and migration on a| hitherto unimaginative scale -- effectively. and migration on a - hitherto unimaginative scale -- and hitherto unimaginative scale —— and imagine scale as well. jenny, keir

starmer has had in the neck recently for wavering on climate commitments. do politicians get it? this is bad, the world is burning.— the world is burning. tracey 's oint is the world is burning. tracey 's point is really _ the world is burning. tracey 's point is really interesting. - the world is burning. tracey 's| point is really interesting. one the world is burning. tracey 's i point is really interesting. one of wonderful things about our parliament is that people come from all kinds of backgrounds and having done all manner of different things, and they don't arrive with the kind of knowledge that tracey thinks they ought to have. it is important for every parliamentarian to see it as part of theirjob to educate and inform themselves. [30 part of theirjob to educate and inform themselves.— part of theirjob to educate and inform themselves. , ., , . inform themselves. do you understand the severity of — inform themselves. do you understand the severity of the _ inform themselves. do you understand the severity of the situation? - inform themselves. do you understand the severity of the situation? yes, - the severity of the situation? yes, i was at the severity of the situation? yes, i was at an — the severity of the situation? yes, i was at an event _ the severity of the situation? yes, i was at an event yesterday - the severity of the situation? yes i was at an event yesterday and patrick vallance was one of the speakers. it is ourjob to make sure we understand as fully as we can, given that there is emerging evidence all the time and there is a

discussion now about mitigation in addition to prevention that wasn't as alive as it is because of the heatwave we are seeing across europe right now. but heatwave we are seeing across europe riaht now. �* . �* . . right now. but we haven't had an answer to _ right now. but we haven't had an answer to this _ right now. but we haven't had an answer to this yet. _ right now. but we haven't had an answer to this yet. it _ right now. but we haven't had an answer to this yet. it is - answer to this yet. it is acknowledged that he didn't use the phrase... acknowledged that he didn't use the hrase... �* ,., acknowledged that he didn't use the hrase... �* a phrase... about the tree huggers? a tree phrase. .. about the tree huggers? a tree hugger— phrase... about the tree huggers? a tree hugger is _ phrase... about the tree huggers? a tree hugger is somebody _ phrase... about the tree huggers? a tree hugger is somebody against - phrase... about the tree huggers? a tree hugger is somebody against the i tree hugger is somebody against the destruction of the rainforest. is a tree hugger somebody who wants to protect ancient woodlands? what is tree hugger? i protect ancient woodlands? what is tree hugger?— tree hugger? i will explain exactly what keir starmer _ tree hugger? i will explain exactly what keir starmer was _ tree hugger? i will explain exactly what keir starmer was saying. - tree hugger? i will explain exactly| what keir starmer was saying. but what keir starmer was saying. but what is a tree hugger? he - what keir starmer was saying. but what is a tree hugger? he was - what is a tree hugger? he was emphasising — what is a tree hugger? he was emphasising the _ what is a tree hugger? he was emphasising the point - what is a tree hugger? he was emphasising the point that - what is a tree hugger? he was emphasising the point that he | what is a tree hugger? he was i emphasising the point that he is motivated to deal with this issue notjust by his desire to protect nature and prevent climate change, but he wants to invest in renewable energy because he thinks that that

is where the jobs of the futurama. but what is a tree hugger? what is where the jobs of the futurama. but what is a tree hugger? what he wast in: but what is a tree hugger? what he was trying to _ but what is a tree hugger? what he was trying to say... _ but what is a tree hugger? what he was trying to say... but _ but what is a tree hugger? what he was trying to say... but i _ but what is a tree hugger? what he was trying to say... but i want - but what is a tree hugger? what he was trying to say... but i want to i was trying to say... but i want to know what — was trying to say... but i want to know what a — was trying to say... but i want to know what a tree _ was trying to say... but i want to know what a tree hugger - was trying to say... but i want to know what a tree hugger is, - was trying to say... but i want to - know what a tree hugger is, because i have connections with nature and animal welfare and they are hugely insulted. what is a tree hugger? somebody who prioritises the natural world over all else. thus —— deuce was saying he understands that but he is also motivated by making sure that people like the steelworkers who want to make steel that can't make the connection to the grid in time to allow them to do it as quickly as they would like to, that thoseissues quickly as they would like to, that those issues are dealt with, because the whole world is moving towards green energy and the uk could play a leading role in this. at the moment, we are being held back because of lack of strategy, lack of investment and infrastructure to enable us to

do it. and he thinks that is how you grow the economy and protect jobs do it. and he thinks that is how you grow the economy and protectjobs in places like scunthorpe and places like where i am from teesside. what like where i am from teesside. what about this? — like where i am from teesside. what about this? politicians _ like where i am from teesside. what about this? politicians don't have the vision and the knowledge. i about this? politicians don't have the vision and the knowledge. i hope keir starmer — the vision and the knowledge. i hope keir starmer doesn't _ the vision and the knowledge. i hope keir starmer doesn't hate _ the vision and the knowledge. i hope keir starmer doesn't hate me - keir starmer doesn't hate me somebody who planted some trees last month _ somebody who planted some trees last month i'm _ somebody who planted some trees last month. i'm a bit sceptical, but do we need — month. i'm a bit sceptical, but do we need to— month. i'm a bit sceptical, but do we need to be looking after the world _ we need to be looking after the world in— we need to be looking after the world in general and do we need to be weaning — world in general and do we need to be weaning off carbon energy? nobody disagrees— be weaning off carbon energy? nobody disagrees with that. the idea that somehow, — disagrees with that. the idea that somehow, human life and life on earth _ somehow, human life and life on earth is — somehow, human life and life on earth is not — somehow, human life and life on earth is not going to survive is not true _ earth is not going to survive is not true so— earth is not going to survive is not true so if— earth is not going to survive is not true. so if the argument is that life on— true. so if the argument is that life on earth is going to disappear because _ life on earth is going to disappear because of climate change, there is no evidence — because of climate change, there is no evidence to say that is the case. can i_ no evidence to say that is the case. can i interject here? are no evidence to say that is the case. can i interject here?— no evidence to say that is the case. can i interject here? can i inter'ect here? are you saying life on can i interject here? are you saying life on earth — can i interject here? are you saying life on earth is _ can i interject here? are you saying life on earth is going _ can i interject here? are you saying life on earth is going to _ can i interject here? are you saying life on earth is going to get - can i interject here? are you saying life on earth is going to get wiped l life on earth is going to get wiped out by— life on earth is going to get wiped out by climate change? in life on earth is going to get wiped out by climate change?— life on earth is going to get wiped out by climate change? in the form that we know _

out by climate change? in the form that we know it, _ out by climate change? in the form that we know it, absolutely. - out by climate change? in the form that we know it, absolutely. the i out by climate change? in the form| that we know it, absolutely. the un term is— that we know it, absolutely. the un term is ctimate _ that we know it, absolutely. the un term is climate genocide. _ that we know it, absolutely. the un term is climate genocide. we - that we know it, absolutely. the un term is climate genocide. we are i term is climate genocide. we are going _ term is climate genocide. we are going to — term is climate genocide. we are going to see _ term is climate genocide. we are going to see the _ term is climate genocide. we are going to see the death _ term is climate genocide. we are going to see the death of- term is climate genocide. we are going to see the death of billionsi going to see the death of billions of people — going to see the death of billions of people. and— going to see the death of billions of --eole.�* ,, . , going to see the death of billions of people-_ and - going to see the death of billions - of people._ and species, of people. and species. and species, eve hinu of people. and species. and species, everything is — of people. and species. and species, everything is interrelated. _ of people. and species. and species, everything is interrelated. this - everything is interrelated. this shows— everything is interrelated. this shows how— everything is interrelated. this shows how there _ everything is interrelated. this shows how there is _ everything is interrelated. this shows how there is a _ everything is interrelated. this shows how there is a lack- everything is interrelated. this shows how there is a lack of. shows how there is a lack of understanding _ shows how there is a lack of understanding in— shows how there is a lack of understanding in the - shows how there is a lack of understanding in the people shows how there is a lack of- understanding in the people making decisions _ understanding in the people making decisions on — understanding in the people making decisions on this. _ understanding in the people making decisions on this. more _ understanding in the people making decisions on this. more deaths - understanding in the people making decisions on this. more deaths are i decisions on this. more deaths are going _ decisions on this. more deaths are going to _ decisions on this. more deaths are going to come _ decisions on this. more deaths are going to come from _ decisions on this. more deaths are going to come from this _ decisions on this. more deaths are going to come from this in- decisions on this. more deaths are going to come from this in the - decisions on this. more deaths are i going to come from this in the next couple _ going to come from this in the next couple of— going to come from this in the next couple of decades _ going to come from this in the next couple of decades globally- going to come from this in the next couple of decades globally than - couple of decades globally than during — couple of decades globally than during the _ couple of decades globally than during the world _ couple of decades globally than during the world wars. - couple of decades globally than during the world wars. it - couple of decades globally than during the world wars. it will. couple of decades globally than . during the world wars. it will make covid _ during the world wars. it will make covid took— during the world wars. it will make covid look like _ during the world wars. it will make covid look like christmas. - during the world wars. it will make covid look like christmas. you- during the world wars. it will make covid look like christmas. you sound like ou covid look like christmas. you sound like you are — covid look like christmas. you sound like you are teetering _ covid look like christmas. you sound like you are teetering on _ covid look like christmas. you sound like you are teetering on the - covid look like christmas. you sound like you are teetering on the brink. like you are teetering on the brink of the nihilism. i like you are teetering on the brink of the nihilism.— of the nihilism. i am not, but we have to look _ of the nihilism. i am not, but we have to look at _ of the nihilism. i am not, but we have to look at the _ of the nihilism. i am not, but we have to look at the facts. - of the nihilism. i am not, but we have to look at the facts. cold i have to look at the facts. cold kills _ have to look at the facts. cold kills more _ have to look at the facts. cold kills more people from heat. the amount— kills more people from heat. the amount of— kills more people from heat. the amount of people are dying... that is an interpretation _ amount of people are dying... that is an interpretation of how good we are at— is an interpretation of how good we are at responding. _ is an interpretation of how good we are at responding.— are at responding. those are the facts. if are at responding. those are the facts- if you _ are at responding. those are the facts- if you go _ are at responding. those are the facts. if you go to _ are at responding. those are the facts. if you go to any _ are at responding. those are the facts. if you go to any scientific. facts. if you go to any scientific establishment _ facts. if you go to any scientific establishment and _ facts. if you go to any scientific establishment and look - facts. if you go to any scientific establishment and look at - facts. if you go to any scientific establishment and look at the l establishment and look at the evidence, _ establishment and look at the evidence, you _ establishment and look at the evidence, you will— establishment and look at the evidence, you will see - establishment and look at the evidence, you will see the - establishment and look at the - evidence, you will see the outcome projections — evidence, you will see the outcome projections for _ evidence, you will see the outcome projections for climate _ evidence, you will see the outcome projections for climate harm - evidence, you will see the outcome

projections for climate harm and i projections for climate harm and climate — projections for climate harm and climate deaths _ projections for climate harm and climate deaths globally - projections for climate harm and climate deaths globally and - projections for climate harm and climate deaths globally and in l projections for climate harm and. climate deaths globally and in the uk. climate deaths globally and in the uk this _ climate deaths globally and in the uk thisjust_ climate deaths globally and in the uk. thisjust proves _ climate deaths globally and in the uk. thisjust proves my— climate deaths globally and in the uk. thisjust proves my point- climate deaths globally and in the i uk. thisjust proves my point about how politicians _ uk. thisjust proves my point about how politicians are _ uk. thisjust proves my point about how politicians are making - uk. thisjust proves my point about| how politicians are making decisions and they— how politicians are making decisions and they are — how politicians are making decisions and they are not _ how politicians are making decisions and they are not aware _ how politicians are making decisions and they are not aware of _ how politicians are making decisions and they are not aware of the - how politicians are making decisions and they are not aware of the facts. | and they are not aware of the facts. but those _ and they are not aware of the facts. but those are — and they are not aware of the facts. but those are the _ and they are not aware of the facts. but those are the facts. _ and they are not aware of the facts. but those are the facts. read - and they are not aware of the facts. but those are the facts.— but those are the facts. read the ipcc but those are the facts. read the lpcc reports- _ but those are the facts. read the ipcc reports. richard _ but those are the facts. read the ipcc reports. richard foord? - but those are the facts. read the - ipcc reports. richard foord? tracey, ipcc reports. richard foord? tracey, i entirel ipcc reports. richard foord? tracey, l entirely agree _ ipcc reports. richard foord? tracey, i entirely agree that _ ipcc reports. richard foord? tracey, i entirely agree that there _ ipcc reports. richard foord? tracey, i entirely agree that there is - ipcc reports. richard foord? tracey, i entirely agree that there is a - i entirely agree that there is a woeful— i entirely agree that there is a woeful lack of understanding around climate _ woeful lack of understanding around climate change and deep time. it is true that— climate change and deep time. it is true that too many mps have a time horizon— true that too many mps have a time horizon of— true that too many mps have a time horizon of four to five years, when what _ horizon of four to five years, when what we _ horizon of four to five years, when what we need is people who examine the science _ what we need is people who examine the science and consider evidence—based policy—making the science and consider evidence—based policy— making and think about how the climate is changing _ think about how the climate is changing over millennia, notjust what _ changing over millennia, notjust what the — changing over millennia, notjust what the weather was like last week. i what the weather was like last week. i was _ what the weather was like last week. i was one _ what the weather was like last week. i was one of— what the weather was like last week. i was one of those 10% who attended sir patrick— i was one of those 10% who attended sir patrick vallance's briefing last year~ _ sir patrick vallance's briefing last year~ i_ sir patrick vallance's briefing last

year. i have since supported climate and ecology bill promoted by zero houi’, _ and ecology bill promoted by zero hour, and — and ecology bill promoted by zero hour, and i— and ecology bill promoted by zero hour, and i agree with you that if we don't — hour, and i agree with you that if we don't address climate change with mitigation _ we don't address climate change with mitigation and adaptation measures, we are _ mitigation and adaptation measures, we are going to be heading for an awful— we are going to be heading for an awful sort— we are going to be heading for an awful sort of harm that will affect everyone's hell. i awful sort of harm that will affect everyone's hell.— awful sort of harm that will affect everyone's hell. i want to move on to another— everyone's hell. i want to move on to another topic, _ everyone's hell. i want to move on to another topic, sorry _ everyone's hell. i want to move on to another topic, sorry to - everyone's hell. i want to move on to another topic, sorry to be - everyone's hell. i want to move on to another topic, sorry to be rude. to another topic, sorry to be rude —— it will affect everyone's health. it is going to be difficult for everyone, but it will be different if you are living in the horn of africa compared to in huddersfield. let me read you this, folks. can i add one _ let me read you this, folks. can i add one last _ let me read you this, folks. can i add one last thing, _ let me read you this, folks. can i add one last thing, nicky? - let me read you this, folks. can i add one last thing, nicky? the i add one last thing, nicky? the government's— add one last thing, nicky? the government's own _ add one last thing, nicky? the government's own policy - add one last thing, nicky? the government's own policy has l add one last thing, nicky? the - government's own policy has made it mandatory— government's own policy has made it mandatory for — government's own policy has made it mandatory for schoolchildren - government's own policy has made it mandatory for schoolchildren and - mandatory for schoolchildren and teachers — mandatory for schoolchildren and teachers to — mandatory for schoolchildren and teachers to be _ mandatory for schoolchildren and teachers to be educated - mandatory for schoolchildren and teachers to be educated on - mandatory for schoolchildren and l teachers to be educated on climate change _ teachers to be educated on climate change so — teachers to be educated on climate change so we _ teachers to be educated on climate change. so we are _ teachers to be educated on climate change. so we are generating - teachers to be educated on climate change. so we are generating new| change. so we are generating new populations — change. so we are generating new populations who _ change. so we are generating new populations who are _ change. so we are generating new populations who are educated - change. so we are generating new populations who are educated on i change. so we are generating new. populations who are educated on this and they— populations who are educated on this and they will— populations who are educated on this and they will be — populations who are educated on this and they will be the _ populations who are educated on this and they will be the ones _ populations who are educated on this and they will be the ones who - populations who are educated on this and they will be the ones who will - and they will be the ones who will

look at _ and they will be the ones who will look at our— and they will be the ones who will look at our politicians _ and they will be the ones who will look at our politicians and - and they will be the ones who will look at our politicians and the - look at our politicians and the decisions _ look at our politicians and the decisions they— look at our politicians and the decisions they have _ look at our politicians and the decisions they have made - look at our politicians and the| decisions they have made and look at our politicians and the - decisions they have made and they will be _ decisions they have made and they will be held — decisions they have made and they will be held to _ decisions they have made and they will be held to account _ decisions they have made and they will be held to account because - decisions they have made and they will be held to account because we j will be held to account because we will be held to account because we will have _ will be held to account because we will have a — will be held to account because we will have a population _ will be held to account because we will have a population who - will be held to account because we will have a population who are - will be held to account because we i will have a population who are more educated _ will have a population who are more educated than — will have a population who are more educated than their— will have a population who are more educated than their mps, _ will have a population who are more educated than their mps, and - will have a population who are more educated than their mps, and it's. educated than their mps, and it's critical— educated than their mps, and it's critical that — educated than their mps, and it's critical that we _ educated than their mps, and it's critical that we make _ educated than their mps, and it's critical that we make sure - educated than their mps, and it's critical that we make sure mps. critical that we make sure mps understand _ critical that we make sure mps understand-— critical that we make sure mps understand. . ,, , ., . understand. thank you. let me read this. understand. thank you. let me read this- apologies _ understand. thank you. let me read this. apologies for _ understand. thank you. let me read this. apologies for being _ understand. thank you. let me read this. apologies for being such - understand. thank you. let me read this. apologies for being such a - this. apologies for being such a disciplinarian. this is from our political editor chris mason, which we got in the last hour. the government is going to break its own deadline to provide schools in england with advice about transgender issues before the summer holidays. ministers had promised that the guidance would be published before the end of the summer term and before the parliamentary break for summer recess. a ministerial statement is expected tomorrow, confirming a delay. the hold up because ministers have failed to come up with guidance deemed sufficiently useful and clear that is also compliant with the law. one

idea was a ban on what is known as social transitioning in schools, where someone is treated as being of the opposite sex, but the attorney general for england and wales advised that that would be unlawful. no new deadline has been set for the advice. ministers have to work out what to do next, either compile guidance that is lawful or contemplate changing the law, with the expectation of the legal challenges this could provoke. no decisions have yet been made. let me read that again. one idea was a ban on what is known as social transitioning in schools. it's all about parental knowledge as well and parental allowance. one idea was a ban on social transitioning where someone is treated as being of the opposite sex, but the attorney general for england and wales advised that this would be unlawful.

you can't ban it. if you expect me to opine on this, you have another think coming. richard foord? i to opine on this, you have another think coming. richard foord? i think there is a lot — think coming. richard foord? i think there is a lot of _ think coming. richard foord? i think there is a lot of heat _ think coming. richard foord? i think there is a lot of heat on _ think coming. richard foord? i think there is a lot of heat on this - there is a lot of heat on this subject— there is a lot of heat on this subject and _ there is a lot of heat on this subject and not _ there is a lot of heat on this subject and not always - there is a lot of heat on this subject and not always a - there is a lot of heat on this . subject and not always a great there is a lot of heat on this - subject and not always a great deal of light _ subject and not always a great deal of light the — subject and not always a great deal of light. the people _ subject and not always a great deal of light. the people we _ subject and not always a great deal of light. the people we are - subject and not always a great deal of light. the people we are talkingi of light. the people we are talking about _ of light. the people we are talking about who — of light. the people we are talking about who are _ of light. the people we are talking about who are affected _ of light. the people we are talking about who are affected in - of light. the people we are talking about who are affected in the - of light. the people we are talking| about who are affected in the trans community, — about who are affected in the trans community, we _ about who are affected in the trans community, we are _ about who are affected in the trans community, we are talking - about who are affected in the trans community, we are talking about l about who are affected in the trans community, we are talking about a j community, we are talking about a tiny number— community, we are talking about a tiny number of— community, we are talking about a tiny number of people. _ community, we are talking about a tiny number of people. yet - community, we are talking about a tiny number of people. yet the - community, we are talking about a . tiny number of people. yet the depth of feeling _ tiny number of people. yet the depth of feeling between _ tiny number of people. yet the depth of feeling between those _ tiny number of people. yet the depth of feeling between those who - tiny number of people. yet the depth of feeling between those who are - tiny number of people. yet the depth of feeling between those who are pro and anti-trans — of feeling between those who are pro and anti—trans is— of feeling between those who are pro and anti—trans is very _ of feeling between those who are pro and anti—trans is very intense. - of feeling between those who are pro and anti—trans is very intense. i- and anti—trans is very intense. i see that — and anti—trans is very intense. i see that myself _ and anti—trans is very intense. i see that myself in _ and anti—trans is very intense. i see that myself in surgeries - and anti—trans is very intense. i see that myself in surgeries in. and anti—trans is very intense. i. see that myself in surgeries in the west— see that myself in surgeries in the west country— see that myself in surgeries in the west country when _ see that myself in surgeries in the west country when i— see that myself in surgeries in the west country when i am _ see that myself in surgeries in the west country when i am in- see that myself in surgeries in the west country when i am in my- see that myself in surgeries in the| west country when i am in my part see that myself in surgeries in the i west country when i am in my part of devon _ west country when i am in my part of devon we _ west country when i am in my part of devon we need _ west country when i am in my part of devon. we need to— west country when i am in my part of devon. we need to step _ west country when i am in my part of devon. we need to step back- west country when i am in my part of devon. we need to step back from i devon. we need to step back from some _ devon. we need to step back from some of— devon. we need to step back from some of the — devon. we need to step back from some of the intolerance, - devon. we need to step back from some of the intolerance, and - devon. we need to step back from some of the intolerance, and we . devon. we need to step back from . some of the intolerance, and we need to be a _ some of the intolerance, and we need to be a bit_ some of the intolerance, and we need to be a bit more — some of the intolerance, and we need to be a bit more calmer— some of the intolerance, and we need to be a bit more calmer and _ some of the intolerance, and we need to be a bit more calmer and seek- some of the intolerance, and we need to be a bit more calmer and seek to l to be a bit more calmer and seek to understand — to be a bit more calmer and seek to understand other— to be a bit more calmer and seek to understand other people's - to be a bit more calmer and seek to understand other people's views - to be a bit more calmer and seek to understand other people's views on| understand other people's views on this. , , understand other people's views on this. . . . ' . understand other people's views on this. , , , this. this is waffle. get off the

fence. this. this is waffle. get off the fence- the _ this. this is waffle. get off the fence. the reason _ this. this is waffle. get off the fence. the reason i _ this. this is waffle. get off the fence. the reason i am - this. this is waffle. get off the fence. the reason i am not. this. this is waffle. get off the - fence. the reason i am not coming down into one _ fence. the reason i am not coming down into one camp _ fence. the reason i am not coming down into one camp or _ fence. the reason i am not coming down into one camp or another - fence. the reason i am not coming down into one camp or another is l down into one camp or another is because — down into one camp or another is because there _ down into one camp or another is because there is _ down into one camp or another is because there is intolerance on . down into one camp or another is i because there is intolerance on both sides _ because there is intolerance on both sides. but— because there is intolerance on both sides. �* . . because there is intolerance on both sides. �* , , ., ., . sides. but this is about guidance for kids. you _ sides. but this is about guidance for kids. you can _ sides. but this is about guidance for kids. you can express - sides. but this is about guidance for kids. you can express an - sides. but this is about guidance - for kids. you can express an opinion on that and social transitioning and what parents' and teachers' input should be. that is clear stuff to talk about, isn't it? it should be. that is clear stuff to talk about, isn't it?— talk about, isn't it? it is. teachers _ talk about, isn't it? it is. teachers and _ talk about, isn't it? it is. teachers and parents - talk about, isn't it? it is. i teachers and parents have talk about, isn't it? it is. - teachers and parents have a role talk about, isn't it? it is. _ teachers and parents have a role in this _ teachers and parents have a role in this. ~ ., ., , teachers and parents have a role in this. . ., ., , ., teachers and parents have a role in this-— well, - this. what role is that? well, teachers are _ this. what role is that? well, teachers are role _ this. what role is that? well, teachers are role models - this. what role is that? well, teachers are role models for| this. what role is that? well, - teachers are role models for their pupils— teachers are role models for their pupils and — teachers are role models for their pupils and they _ teachers are role models for their pupils and they are _ teachers are role models for their pupils and they are right - teachers are role models for their pupils and they are right to - teachers are role models for their pupils and they are right to not i pupils and they are right to not duck— pupils and they are right to not duck the — pupils and they are right to not duck the issue. _ pupils and they are right to not duck the issue. likewise, - pupils and they are right to not. duck the issue. likewise, parents need _ duck the issue. likewise, parents need to— duck the issue. likewise, parents need to be — duck the issue. likewise, parents need to be engaged _ duck the issue. likewise, parents need to be engaged in— duck the issue. likewise, parents need to be engaged in it. - duck the issue. likewise, parents need to be engaged in it. the - duck the issue. likewise, parents' need to be engaged in it. the idea that we _ need to be engaged in it. the idea that we tran— need to be engaged in it. the idea that we ban social _ need to be engaged in it. the idea that we ban social transitioning . need to be engaged in it. the idea that we ban social transitioning in| that we ban social transitioning in schools. — that we ban social transitioning in schools. i— that we ban social transitioning in schools, i think _ that we ban social transitioning in schools, i think that _ that we ban social transitioning in schools, i think that was - that we ban social transitioning in schools, i think that was wrong. that we ban social transitioning in schools, i think that was wrong in the first— schools, i think that was wrong in the first instance _ schools, i think that was wrong in the first instance and _ schools, i think that was wrong in the first instance and i— schools, i think that was wrong in the first instance and i agree - schools, i think that was wrong in the first instance and i agree with the first instance and i agree with

the attorney— the first instance and i agree with the attorney general— the first instance and i agree with the attorney general that - the first instance and i agree with the attorney general that it - the attorney general that it shouldn't— the attorney general that it shouldn't be _ the attorney general that it shouldn't be banned. - the attorney general that it shouldn't be banned. for. the attorney general that it shouldn't be banned. for all children? — shouldn't be banned. for all children? young _ shouldn't be banned. for all children? young children . shouldn't be banned. for all children? young children as| shouldn't be banned. for all- children? young children as well? bob seely, do you want to come in? we have to get the guidance right, so i we have to get the guidance right, so i have _ we have to get the guidance right, so i have sympathy with the government, and we need to make it robust _ government, and we need to make it robust i_ government, and we need to make it robust. i agree with richard on one bit of— robust. i agree with richard on one bit of his— robust. i agree with richard on one bit of his waffle, which was a bit unfair~ _ bit of his waffle, which was a bit unfair. sorry! iwill defend bit of his waffle, which was a bit unfair. sorry! i will defend the bit of his waffle, which was a bit unfair. sorry! iwill defend the lib dems— unfair. sorry! iwill defend the lib dems on— unfair. sorry! iwill defend the lib dems on this occasion. you have to be understanding, but biological sex is important and that is what the majority— is important and that is what the majority of people in this country betieve~ — majority of people in this country believe i— majority of people in this country believe. i am very sceptical about social— believe. i am very sceptical about social transitioning and people identifying as whatever they want. if identifying as whatever they want. if you _ identifying as whatever they want. if you have — identifying as whatever they want. if you have a penis, you are male, if you _ if you have a penis, you are male, if you have — if you have a penis, you are male, if you have female genitals, you are female _ if you have female genitals, you are female i_ if you have female genitals, you are female. i think that this prioritisation of gender identity over biological sex that labour and the lib— over biological sex that labour and the lib dems and the snp have adopted — the lib dems and the snp have adopted is unwise. and at the next election. _ adopted is unwise. and at the next election, the tories are going to say we _ election, the tories are going to say we prioritise biological sex. you should not be able to transition

until you _ you should not be able to transition until you are — you should not be able to transition until you are much older, and then carefully— until you are much older, and then carefully done, because we are now reading _ carefully done, because we are now reading lots of stories about people who were _ reading lots of stories about people who were encouraged to transition, having _ who were encouraged to transition, having had — who were encouraged to transition, having had these puberty blockers which _ having had these puberty blockers which are — having had these puberty blockers which are potentially dangerous and having _ which are potentially dangerous and having horrible things like their breasts — having horrible things like their breasts bound and the sort of thing. this is— breasts bound and the sort of thing. this is not— breasts bound and the sort of thing. this is not right. we need to protect— this is not right. we need to protect children and make sure children— protect children and make sure children and parents understand consequences. biological sex is reat~ _ consequences. biological sex is reat~ it — consequences. biological sex is real. it should be more important than _ real. it should be more important than gender. we have to get the guidance — than gender. we have to get the guidance right and it should be robust — guidance right and it should be robust. ~ ., , guidance right and it should be robust. ., , ., guidance right and it should be robust. ~ ., , ., . . guidance right and it should be robust. ., , ., . . ., robust. apologies to richard for bein: a robust. apologies to richard for being a bit _ robust. apologies to richard for being a bit spiky. _ robust. apologies to richard for being a bit spiky, it's _ robust. apologies to richard for being a bit spiky, it's my - robust. apologies to richard for i being a bit spiky, it's my quadruple espresso. jenny, bob seely is pretty clear that it is a binary issue. i long time for this. it has been promised that it woulc issue. dy long time for this. it has been promised that it woulc issue. i y clear that it is a binary issue. i don't know why bob is talking about clear that it is a binary issue. i don't know why bob is talking about puberty blockers and binding puberty blockers and binding people's tests. this is not what we people's tests. this is not what we are talking about today. we are are talking about today. we are talking about advice for teachers so talking about advice for teachers so

that there is consistency and so that there is consistency and so that there is consistency and so that teachers feel supported in that there is consistency and so that teachers feel supported in being able to deal with this. having being able to deal with this. having listened to the conversation so far, listened to the conversation so far, these are undeniably difficult these are undeniably difficult issues. if you are a maths teacher issues. if you are a maths teacher with no experience of all of this, with no experience of all of this, you may be faced with making some you may be faced with making some judgment calls that without this judgment calls that without this guidance, you would be ill—equipped guidance, you would be ill—equipped to do. i have seen some excellent to do. i have seen some excellent examples in schools of teachers examples in schools of teachers being able to navigate this being able to navigate this sensitively and in collaboration sensitively and in collaboration with parents and the child and being with parents and the child and being able to deal with it in a good way, able to deal with it in a good way, and that should be the norm. and that should be the norm. unfortunately, this has become a unfortunately, this has become a toxic debate and things like puberty blockers get thrown into the mix. that is not what we are discussing. this is about advice for schools. bob is right to say that it needs to be right, but we have been waiting a long time for this. it has been

promised that it would be ready for promised that it would be ready for next term. it's not going to be, and the people who get left on the sharp end of all of this are those teachers who are having to handle it day—to—day. bob, you have to be careful about the way you throw in things that are not happening in schools. why did you bring puberty blockers in? most children who are going through these kinds of experiences are not accessing puberty blockers. a lot of these discussions are being held in a school context, away from health care altogether. it's a conversation between the people who care about that child, and that is where we have to focus. the government promised guidance for schools. if we don't get this guidance right, who

suffers? , , ., , ,, ., suffers? jenny, should parents know if a child has — suffers? jenny, should parents know if a child has changed _ suffers? jenny, should parents know if a child has changed pronouns - suffers? jenny, should parents know if a child has changed pronouns at i if a child has changed pronouns at school, yes or no? i if a child has changed pronouns at school, yes or no?— school, yes or no? i think they should. school, yes or no? i think they should- i _ school, yes or no? i think they should. i think— school, yes or no? i think they should. i think it's _ school, yes or no? i think they should. i think it's important l school, yes or no? i think they i should. i think it's important that the people who care about a child are able to provide support with the sensitivity that is needed to help that young person. let sensitivity that is needed to help that young person.— sensitivity that is needed to help that young person. let me ask the classic question. _ that young person. let me ask the classic question. i'm _ that young person. let me ask the classic question. i'm sure - classic question. i'm sure politicians are sick of being asked this, but can a woman have a penis, baroness? i this, but can a woman have a penis, baroness? . . ., . this, but can a woman have a penis, baroness?— baroness? i am a woman, i do not have a penis- — baroness? i am a woman, i do not have a penis. there _ baroness? i am a woman, i do not have a penis. there are _ baroness? i am a woman, i do not have a penis. there are some - baroness? i am a woman, i do not. have a penis. there are some women who identify as women... that have a penis. there are some women who identify as women. . ._ who identify as women... that is hardly breaking _ who identify as women... that is hardly breaking news. _ who identify as women. .. that is hardly breaking news. i- who identify as women... that is hardly breaking news. i am - who identify as women... that is hardly breaking news. i am glad| who identify as women... that is . hardly breaking news. i am glad you think so. there _ hardly breaking news. i am glad you think so. there are _ hardly breaking news. i am glad you think so. there are some _ hardly breaking news. i am glad you think so. there are some women . hardly breaking news. i am glad you | think so. there are some women who obviously were born male who now identify as women, and i'm very relaxed about that. that is their right to identify how they like. richard, should parents know if a child has changed pronouns at school? .

child has changed pronouns at school?- i'm _ child has changed pronouns at school?- i'm not - child has changed pronouns at school?- i'm not going l child has changed pronouns at| school?- i'm not going to child has changed pronouns at school? yeah. i'm not going to be rude to you _ school? yeah. i'm not going to be rude to you any — school? yeah. i'm not going to be rude to you any more, _ school? yeah. i'm not going to be rude to you any more, i _ school? yeah. i'm not going to be rude to you any more, i am - school? yeah. i'm not going to be rude to you any more, i am giving you lots of space. i rude to you any more, i am giving you lots of space.— you lots of space. i have little more to say — you lots of space. i have little more to say on _ you lots of space. i have little more to say on that _ you lots of space. i have little more to say on that subject. i you lots of space. i have little i more to say on that subject. it's you lots of space. i have little - more to say on that subject. it's a straightforward yes or no question and i_ straightforward yes or no question and i think— straightforward yes or no question and i think it's entirely right that parents — and i think it's entirely right that parents should know. the and i think it's entirely right that parents should know.— and i think it's entirely right that parents should know. the times have re orted parents should know. the times have reported that — parents should know. the times have reported that the _ parents should know. the times have reported that the draft _ parents should know. the times have reported that the draft guidance - reported that the draft guidance stated that children should be allowed to socially transition with the consent of their parents, meaning they could choose another pronoun or name or uniform of the opposite sex. but the government then commissioned legal advice from victoria prentice, the attorney general, about whether a ban on social transitioning in schools was possible. last week she concluded that such a move would be unlawful and said the government would need to pass new legislation if it wanted to pass new legislation if it wanted to go further. 50 it's complicated, isn't it? to go further. so it's complicated, isn't it? �* . to go further. so it's complicated, isn't it? �* , . , , isn't it? but there is a simple --rincile isn't it? but there is a simple principle here _ isn't it? but there is a simple principle here which - isn't it? but there is a simple principle here which is - isn't it? but there is a simple principle here which is about | principle here which is about biological sex and whether you believe — biological sex and whether you believe gender identity and how you wish to— believe gender identity and how you wish to identify trump's biological sex. wish to identify trump's biological sex in _

wish to identify trump's biological sex. i'm afraid the conservatives don't _ sex. i'm afraid the conservatives don't believe that it does. you can't say _ don't believe that it does. you can't say all — don't believe that it does. y'm. can't say all conservatives think that. ' . . . can't say all conservatives think that. , . . , that. official, but most conservatives - that. official, but most conservatives and - that. official, but most conservatives and i - that. official, but most. conservatives and i think that. official, but most- conservatives and i think most people — conservatives and i think most people in— conservatives and i think most people in the country believe biological sex is real and important and is _ biological sex is real and important and is the — biological sex is real and important and is the foundation, not gender identity — and is the foundation, not gender identity. that is a significant difference between the conservatives and the _ difference between the conservatives and the other parties. hold difference between the conservatives and the other parties.— and the other parties. hold on a minute, nobody _ and the other parties. hold on a minute, nobody is _ and the other parties. hold on a minute, nobody is saying - and the other parties. hold on a i minute, nobody is saying biological sex isn't real. the minute, nobody is saying biological sex isn't real.— sex isn't real. the labour party believes that _ sex isn't real. the labour party believes that gender _ sex isn't real. the labour party believes that gender identity i sex isn't real. the labour party i believes that gender identity trumps biological sex. for believes that gender identity trumps biological seat-— biological sex. for heaven's sake! that is the — biological sex. for heaven's sake! that is the reality. _ biological sex. for heaven's sake! that is the reality. that _ biological sex. for heaven's sake! that is the reality. that is - biological sex. for heaven's sake! that is the reality. that is why i biological sex. for heaven's sake! | that is the reality. that is why you think— that is the reality. that is why you think a _ that is the reality. that is why you think a person can have a penis and be a female — think a person can have a penis and be a female-— think a person can have a penis and be a female. but, you 'ust sat there and made ridiculousi be a female. but, you just sat there and made ridiculous comments i be a female. but, you just sat there l and made ridiculous comments about people not thinking that biological sex is real or important. that people not thinking that biological sex is real or important.— sex is real or important. that is aarba . e. sex is real or important. that is garbage- the — sex is real or important. that is garbage. the labour— sex is real or important. that is garbage. the labour party i sex is real or important. that is i garbage. the labour party believe that gender identity trumps biological sex.— that gender identity trumps biological sex. that gender identity trumps biolo . ical sex. . . . biological sex. find a culture war somewhere _ biological sex. find a culture war somewhere else, _ biological sex. find a culture war somewhere else, bob. _ biological sex. find a culture war somewhere else, bob. thank i biological sex. find a culture warl somewhere else, bob. thank you, baroness somewhere else, bob. thank you, laaroness jenny — somewhere else, bob. thank you, baroness jenny chapman, - somewhere else, bob. thank you, baroness jenny chapman, richard | baroness jenny chapman, richard foord, baronessjenny chapman, richard foord, liberal democrat mp for

tiverton and honiton and bob seely, conservative mp for the isle of wight. pmqs later, here it on 5 live. live from london. this is bbc news uk inflation falls to its lowest level in more than a year — but still remains woefully shy of the government's target. extreme temperatures grip the globe — as the record heat wave blazes on. journalist dan wootton denies online allegations of criminality — but admits he's made 'errors ofjudgment in the past�* on the final day of by—election campaigning in man mike's old seat on the agenda the emission zone and the cost—of—living crisis.