or in a tunnel below the antarctic ice. or along the entire length of the english channel. now, all of these feats of superhuman endurance have been undertaken by my guest today, lewis pugh. why does he do it? to focus attention on the climate crisis and its impact on our blue planet. his death—defying exploits have won him political access from downing street to the kremlin but is the response to little, too late? —— the response too little, too late?

lewis pugh, welcome to hardtalk. thank you so much. it's great to have you on the show. here you are before me in your very smart suit but soon, you'll be back in your trunks on another marathon swim — you've just announced you're going to swim the entire length of the hudson river through new york state, ending up in new york city at the time of the un general assembly. it's a massive undertaking. do these things get easier with experience and with time? mentally easier. physically, perhaps not so but mentally, yes. because, without being impolite, you began these endurance tests, this extreme swimming, in your30s. you're now into your 50s. just physically, how demanding is this one going to be? i think it's going to be very, very demanding. i mean, it's a long — it's a long swim. we think it's going to take me 30 days.

the big challenge is obviously, the hudson's got rocks, there are rapids to begin with so, you know, you hit a rock, your swim can end very, very quickly and it's a very, very long swim and also there's also pollution in the water. so, you put all those things together, it makes it a very, very challenging swim. you've said something interesting about the way in pain and suffering works for an extreme endurance swimmer. you said, "this is the only sport in the whole world that "i'm aware of where the more experience you have, "in a way, the harder it becomes" and ijust wonder when you said that, what did you mean by it? i think — i think that — that's correct. and, i mean, for example, when you watch a tennis player and you watch a tennis player hit so many balls and the more balls they hit, you know, the better they become. but when you have been really, really, really cold, it stays in your bones. and then, every single subsequent swim becomes exponentially harder. so, for example, you talked

about doing that swim underneath the antarctic ice sheet. in order to be able to do that, i had to forget what happened at the north pole, when my hands were so cold. i had to forget what about happened on everest when i did a swim at everest in 2010 and i could barely breathe. i had to forget what happened down in the ross sea when the water was slapping up against the side of the boat and turning into slush mid air. you have to begin to forget it before you can actually get back in the water again. you've said, quite candidly, "i don't "like swimming in cold water". well, i tolerate it. i tolerate it. itjust makes me think there is something very perverse about you, lewis pugh, because, for a man who is open about his dislike of cold water, you have sought it out throughout your adult life. swimming in the places where i do — for example, across the north pole, down in antarctica and the ross sea — i'm able to convey a message about what is happening to the planet, to shine a light on these places where we really

do need to shine a light. so, for example, the swim across the north pole was in 2007. it was across an open patch of sea. the message was very, very simple — can you even swim across the north pole? or, for example, down in the ross sea, it was to try get that area protected. i did the swim down there, afterwards to the kremlin and then, two years later, shuttling back and forwards, we were able to get that area protected. and so, i think that swimming in cold water, it captures the imagination of the media but it also, it conveys a message — there's a vulnerability to our planet. now, all of that we're going to unpick in some detail because you've been a campaigner, you've now, i think, taken the term �*environmental diplomat�* to describe what you do with your swimming, but that's not the way it began. no. i want to get back to the very youthful lewis pugh, a teenager living at the time in cape town, south africa, who decided he was going to swim out offshore to reach that rocky outcrop robben island. it was your first

significant sea swim. yes. at that point — try and remember — what motivated you to do it? i think geography moulds you. so, where you grow up moulds you. and i had initially grown up in england, in plymouth, and my mother told me a story. i was about four years old and my school was literally on the hoe, looking out over the sea, and i would see the ships leaving and going out over the horizon and i would say to her, "mum, one day, i want to be on one "of those ships". and then, we moved out to south africa when i was ten and then, eventually settling in cape town when i was 17 years old, and one of my friends had swum from robben island back to cape town. and those waters are treacherous. well, they're really, really cold and from my history classroom, i could see robben island and i thought to myself, "one day, i want to do it," and that's where it all started. it started and it never really stopped. you had a career in corporate law — maritime law — and we were making good money but in your 30s, you quit that

to embrace full—time endurance extreme swimming. yes. i just... in a way, ijust wonder whether ego is a part of this and whether you were — let's get to the campaigning in a minute — but whether you are also trying to prove something to yourself about yourself. so, i think there's been a transition. so, you know, you're very, very right. i started out as a swimmer and i love swimming but then, i became a maritime lawyer and then, i became an ocean advocate and now, i represent the united nations as a un patron of the oceans and so, i suppose i'm an environmental diplomat, so there's been that transition. but insofar as ego is concerned, there are easier ways of doing things. when you go into these swims, they are extremely, extremely hard. i understand that, but does breaking records, doing things that others have never done, matter to you? because i'm just thinking of the way in which you —

i think even yourself, you've at times compared yourself to people like edmund hillary, you know, the first conqueror of everest. you are an explorer, in a sense, because you go to the most remote places. and there is always, for the rest of us who don't do that sort of thing, a fascination with motivation. yeah. i don't think i've ever compared myself to sir edmund hillary. i mean, just to put him in perspective, he was the first person to climb mount everest but it was what he did afterwards which was so inspirational. i mean, he became a voice for notjust for mountaineering but for working together. he was an incredible voice in south—east asia and india and nepal. i dream to be able to, one day, have that type of legacy. does breaking records matter to you? yes, it does, stephen, and the reason why it matters is as follows. when you're trying to tell a story about a place, you want to be the first person to go there to tell that story, right?

so, you're trying to capture the imagination of people. so, trying to be the first, it does matter. does that mean at times, you're deliberately putting yourself in jeopardy? i mean, if you want to tell stories, the story that fascinates people the most is that sort of man against the elements to the point where death is a possibility. is that something you had to embrace? i don't seek death. i do these swims because i care deeply about life. and all forms of life — notjust humans but also the whole of the animal kingdom. so, i do these swims to tell a story about the health of our environment. but in order to really — in a very, very busy news world, to be able to capture the imagination of the media, there has to be something special. so, undertaking a swim, the first swim across the north pole, it automatically gets the media's attention. and when you've got that attention, you have influence. have ever — things ever

gone seriously wrong? i've done a few swims which were very, very close to the edges, right? i mean, you're swimming in a very, very high consequence environment. i mean, let mejust explain, give you an example. so, for example, when i swam across the north pole, we prepared for the swim and we prepared as thoroughly as possible but you can't go there and do a practice swim. and i remember arriving in the north pole and looking out over this icy terrain and it's black water. it's really, really frightening. and then, just thinking as i'm about to get into the water, "well, this water is below zero". it's —i.7 degrees centigrade, 29 degrees fahrenheit — it's unbelievably cold. and just thinking, "0h, there's so many things "which could possibly go wrong in here". and i dove into the water and i swam as hard as i could. i got out the other end. it had taken me 18 minutes and 50 seconds. it felt like i'd been

in there for 18 hours. and this left hand afterwards, it was incredibly painful. it took a few months for me to get properfeeling back in my fingers again. just to be clear, you always — and i mean always — swim with just swim trunks, goggles but no wetsuit? yes, and there are reasons for that. i mean, i'm trying to get world leaders to be courageous, to make the tough decisions which are needed right now to protect the planet. and if i'm asking for them to be courageous, i myself must also be courageous and swimming in a wetsuit or a drysuitjust wouldn't send the same message. but then, there's the other aspect and just to give you a mountaineering analogy, there are people who climb everest and they climb it with oxygen and they climb it in big teams, for example, and there are people who do sort of climbing free solo, without ropes and on their own. these are very, very different experiences, when you're assisted

and when you're not assisted. and so, when i get into the water and it's just myself, just in a speedo, just a cap, just the goggles, i'm in there and it's very, very challenging but i enjoy it. for mortals like myself, it's very hard to imagine how you do survive. is there something physiological about you that makes you different? i have read that you have an extraordinary capacity, when you're about to enter this freezing environment, the cold water, a capacity to begin to generate heat in your body — your core body temperature goes up before you even undertake the task. i think they�*re calling it �*anticipatory thermogenesis�*. yes. is this proven? is this real? this was a scientist in south africa called professor tim noakes who had studied me for — for many, many years and just

before i�*m going to get into the water, he noticed my core body temperature rises. and he came up with this expression �*anticipatory thermogenesis�* — so, creation of heat before an event. and certainly, this does happen. but what i would say is the reason why i can withstand these temperatures is because i�*ve spent a lifetime swimming in cold water, right? it�*s years and years and years of practice. yeah. now, let�*s get to the environmental observations you have made in the course of the last two decades. if you think back to the beginnings and you think back to what you see when you swim now, are there noticeable trends in the oceans — and, indeed, in the rivers, too — that you can tell us about? the two biggest changes i�*ve seen have been in the polar regions and in the coral reefs of the world. there, the changes are enormous.

so, just to give you an example — when i did my first swim in the high arctic, so this in the norwegian arctic, on the edge of the arctic ice pack, when i did my first swim there, the water was three degrees centigrade. i went back there 12 years later, water was no longer three, it was now ten degrees centigrade. wow. it�*s enormous. whenever i tell a world leader that, it shocks them because it�*s the speed of the change, 0k, which is so shocking. and what about the marine life, you know? you�*ve had the chance, because you�*ve swum in all five of our oceans, also the ancient seven seas. you�*ve swum in more water as well as cold water, so everything from fish to corals. what do you notice? well, certainly, in terms of the coral reefs, the water is warming. because the water is warming, the coral reefs are dying. and the science is so stark. the scientists are telling us — so, we�*ve heated the planet by about 1.2 degrees centigrade. at 1.5, they say that we will

lose 70% of the world�*s coral. at two degrees, we�*ll lose virtually all of the coral and we�*re currently on track for 2.7 degrees centigrade. so, it�*s now in a race against time to save the environment. your message is all about the dangerous, urgent impacts of our warming planet. you talk less about the impacts on people and communities and i�*m just wondering whether you ever think about the people and communities who, for example, undertake fishing, even whaling, in the oceans that you�*ve swum in, where you�*ve made such a point of sort of condemning the human interventions, including fishing and whaling and yet, there are livelihoods on the line here and i wonder whether you�*ve spent any time talking to those communities, giving them some thought. absolutely, i have. i can say one thing, that marine protected areas are like national parks in the sea which protect

the oceans and protect the wildlife in the oceans. they are fishermen�*s friends, because if we carry on the way we carry on, we will have no more fish. i�*ll never forget one swim when i did down in antarctica in a place called deception island. and when i arrived there, there was this old whaling station, and i dove into the water. and i�*ll never forget it, because underneath me were whale bones piled high, rib bones, spine bones, jaw bones, thousands and thousands and thousands of them. we came within an inch of pushing the whale into extinction. and i like to think that those whale bones, which are there, frozen in the waters down in deception island are a reminder of man�*s potential for folly, but they aren�*t. because first we came to the seals, and we took all of them, and then we came to the whales and took virtually all of them. and then now we are going for the antarctic toothfish and taking them and now even

going for the tiniest life down there in which everything relies, krill. we have to know when it is time to stop and to project these areas. the message is very powerful and it�*s the kind of testimony that only you can provide because you�*ve undertaken swims like no other human. but there is something a little bit, maybe self—aggrandising about the way you now describe yourself as an environmental diplomat who is capable of changing minds, of persuasion on a global scale, you talk about how you went to the kremlin, how you met the man who is now defence ministerfor vladimir putin, sergei shoigu, and convinced him that russia should join the treaty protecting the ross sea and the deep southern ocean. you make it sound as though you and the power of your story changed putin�*s mind.

do you really believe that? if you want to work in environmental advocacy, you have to be like a locksmith. you can�*t keep going to the same door — the same closed door — with the same set of keys. you�*ve got to try something different. over a period of 17 years the american diplomats and new zealand diplomats who were trying to protect the ross sea had failed — every single year they had tried to get russia to agree to it, but russia was not interested. i went down there, i did a swim, i then went to the kremlin, i met with sergei shoigu, i met with artur chilingarov, i met with sergei umnov, i met with all of them. we began the conversation, and over a two—year period shuttling between there and catherine novelli, the american diplomat, we were able to get that area protected. that area is the size of britain, france, germany, and italy all put together. lo and behold you say on another occasion you swam the length of the river thames, which of course goes

across southern england, ends in london and then the thames estuary. you say when you swam past westminster, tony blair summoned you to see him and you chatted with him and lo and behold very shortly afterwards the labour government of tony blair passed new measures to protect uk waters from pollution. again, it sounds extraordinary. but do you really think individual campaigners such as yourself can make such a difference? yes, i do. let me give you another example. i swam the full length of the english channel, so i started in land�*s end and 49 days later i finally arrived in dover. during that period i was urging the british government to properly protect the waters around the united kingdom, i was urging them to protect at least 30% of the waters around the united kingdom. what happened ? michael gove, the environment secretary, met me down there, he made the commitment to me on the beach there in dover that britain would back this call. a month later lord goldsmith

stood up in the general assembly and made that commitment, and urged other nations tojoin them in this pursuit. and since then over 120 nations, so more than half of the world�*s nations have agreed to this standard which is protecting at least 30% of the world�*s oceans now by 2030. the planet is still warming. the un secretary general says the climate crisis is, quote, "out of control". there are some environmental activists who�*ve responded to that by thinking the time has come for direct actions which undoubtedly inconvenience, at the very least, the general public — we�*re talking about people who glue themselves to highways, glue themselves to trains, disrupt major cultural and sporting events, and i am wondering, you talk about diplomacy. this is not diplomacy, this is direct action. are you supportive of it or not? i feel deeply uncomfortable with environmental campaigners,

and all of these are peaceful environmental campaigners, being locked up. i feel deeply uncomfortable with the situation. but my question is, do you support them? i absolutely support those people who are trying to highlight the situation which we face now. i thought about... we face a situation where, every single year, i am seeing the planet warm. every single year, i am seeing less and less sea ice in the arctic. i am seeing coral reefs dying. yet the people who are meant to be leading the situation, trying to protect the planet, they are just not doing thejob. those who take a very different view of the urgency of this climate crisis, they point to what they see as hypocrisy amongst some environmental campaigners, and maybe you could be accused of that yourself. and i�*m thinking about the fact that one of your sponsors for some of these extraordinary missions you undertake is the legal and general financial institution, financial corporation.

their investment arm still has a significant holding of shell oil shares, so in a strange way, indirectly, you are benefiting from investment in fossil fuel activity. another example would be the degree to which you fly and use ships to get your message around the world. all of it adding to your carbon footprint. now, it�*s easy to say, "oh, that�*s an example of hypocrisy," but do you think about that and are you changing your own way of living? i absolutely do think about that. and every time i take on a sponsor, we do due diligence of them and legal and general investment came near the top of the list in terms of asset management. year on year, they come near the top of the list in terms of those who are doing the most environmentally friendly investing. have you asked them to divest themselves of shell shares? they follow a tracker fund. you�*ll need to speak to them about it, but they follow a tracker fund, so when you do that type of investment,

that�*s the system. we do have to change our system. right. i just wonder, as we think about you, about to jet off to the united states to swim the hudson river, you want end the swim at the united nations as they consider a new treaty to protect the seas. do you in any way feel overwhelmed by the scale of the climate emergency and the degree to which, even your actions, and you have talk about the impact they have had, can�*t begin to meet the scale of the challenge? it�*s happening so quickly, it�*s a race against time to save the planet. one of the reasons why i�*ve chosen the river to swim in is because it�*s more achievable to clean up and get a healthier river, all of us are close to a river, and we look out across the oceans and it�*s 70% of the planet and we look out across it, and it can seem overwhelming. i hate to tell you this — the new york times today is very excited about your swim

and said that you, lewis pugh, are going to be facing rat infestations, sewage outflows, and residue of toxic chemicals including mercury on your hudson river swim. so, again, this is a challenge that, frankly, is getting worse. we need to take urgent action right now. that�*s the simple message. we can�*t delay any longer. but you still believe that it�*s a fight that can be won for humanity? i believe we are passing certain tipping points, and unless we take urgent action now, we will pass more tipping points. there are about 8 million plants and animals on this planet, and of those, about1 million are at risk, real risk now of going extinct. i mean, think about that statistic. every single fraction of a degree matters, every single thing which we pollute, that matters, i am urging people to take action. all i can do is wish you the very best of luck

with your next extreme endurance swim along the hudson river. hope we can talk to you at some point after that, but, for now, thanks for being on hardtalk. thank you so much. hello, there. sunshine and prolonged heat across the uk has been very limited thisjuly, hasn�*t it? and actually we had once again some contrasting weather conditions across the country. in fact, in scarborough, in north yorkshire, we had just over a0 millimetres of rain, most of that falling in the afternoon. but, by contrast, once the sunshine broke through across parts of the midlands, in warwickshire, we had a high of 26 celsius.

we haven�*t seen temperatures like that since the beginning of the month. now, a quiet story on friday continues, but this low pressure is set to move in from the atlantic for the start of the weekend. it�*ll be the third weekend we�*ve seen an area of low sitting to the north—west. so make the most of friday�*s weather — dry, with some sunny spells, showers should be fairly isolated, it�*ll feel quite pleasant, with the sunshine coming through. a quiet story for many, with temperatures generally at around 17 to 23 or 2a degrees, that�*s 75 fahrenheit. it means there�*s a potential for another dry day for the cricket at the oval, but there�*s a further chance of showers on saturday and sunday, some of those are likely to interrupt play, and it�*s all because of this low that�*s sitting out to the north—west, the strongest of the winds to the southern flank of that low, the heaviest and sharpest of the showers on saturday, the further north and west you are. there will be a few drifting their way steadily through,

and with blustery winds from a westerly direction, at least they should clear relatively quickly. dodge those showers and keep some sunshine, it�*ll still be pleasantly warm, 22 or 23 not out of the question. now, moving out of saturday into sunday, our area of low pressure gradually drifts its way steadily eastwards, with another one waiting in the wings. it�*s going to close out the month on quite an unsettled note. so we�*ll see a spell of showers drifting their way through north west england, over to east anglia, clouding over with further outbreaks of rain by the end of the day, pushing into northern ireland and west wales. blustery winds for this time of year, once again. they will push the showers through quite quickly. top temperatures on sunday ranging from 15 to 21 degrees. so into the weekend, no significant change to the trend ofjuly so far — sunshine and showers, breezy at times, and disappointing temperatures.

20 years ago you had to head south to see these birds. a slightly literal way. the wildlife presenter brought them to the tv screens from explain. now they�*re in kent. a pair arrived from africa back in the spring and now four chicks have on marsh land. the site has been designed for waging birds.

live from london. this is bbc news. donald trump�*s legal problems get worse. the former president is now facing new charges in the mar—a—lago classified documents inquiry. uncertainty in niger a day after soldiers announced the overthrow of the country�*s elected president.

and a dramatic come back from argentina denies south africa their first ever world cup victory. hello and a warm welcome. former us president donald trump is facing three new charges over his handling of classified documents after he left the white house. federal prosecutors filed an indictment on thursday seening superseding formal federal charges made on thursday seening superseding formalfederal charges made in john to which trump has pleaded not guilty. mr trump and two of his employees at his florida estate, mar—a—lago, have been charged with obstructing the investigation into the former president�*s retention of top secret documents. court documents claim employees were asked to delete camera footage recordings of the basement where classified documents had been stored after he�*d been

served a subpoena to