good morning and welcome to the nation's phone in. we are talking about water later, once more onto the beach dear friends, about water later, once more onto the beach dearfriends, from beaches to breaches and water to data. data is the first hour, have you been hacked? we are hearing about two big data breaches, one at the police service of northern ireland caused by human error. and the other one is a big one, a huge amount of data stolen from the electoral commission, tens of millions of voter data has been breached through a complex cyber attack carried out by hostile actors. who are they? information is power. abe they polluting's people, common criminals, nation states, lovable or unlivable geeks? who is controlling them, what do they want from us, how

do they get it, what will they do with it, what's in it for them? who is hacking the hackers, the bots and whatnots. we have malware, ransomware, the dark red, white hats, black hats, grey hats, passwords, how many have you got? what is your mother's maiden name? it's all serious stuff. what are your thoughts and experiences? share it and we have a panel of experts to share cyber security questions. what do you want to know and have you been hacked? ? good morning and good to know you are there. richard foster has the news was top police officers say

they are extremely worried about the possible consequences of a major data breach in northern ireland. the name, role of every psni officer has been published online by mistake was that there are seniors dilly mcphee as dissident public groups could plot attacks. six water companies in uk face claims they have overcharged customers. the trade body water body uk says the accusations are without merit. thejoint uk says the accusations are without merit. the joint declaration uk says the accusations are without merit. thejoint declaration has been signed by leaders of eight countries in south america who will work together to tackle deforestation in the amazon. they plan to fight illegal mining and organised crime in the world's biggest rainforest. two more contestants forced to click on dancing had been announced. cyclist, former swimmer and eight time paralympic medallistjody cundy will don the sequence, along with former coronation street star ellie leach.

join us on this one. loads of questions for you to ask and lots for us all to know and beware of as well. there have been some really famous data breaches in recent years. dixons carphone warehouse in 2017, virgin media in 2020, the payroll company injune of 2017, virgin media in 2020, the payroll company in june of 2023, payroll company injune of 2023, companies like payroll company in june of 2023, companies like boots, ba, payroll company injune of 2023, companies like boots, ba, aer lingus, the bbc, were affected. although no banking details were obtained. the nhs injuly this year, the uk's largest trust, st bart's, announced it had suffered a ransomware attack. give us the money. and we will set you free. 08085 909693, 85058, what about your personal data breaches, plenty of

those, tell us if you have been hacked. and what do you want to know because we have experts to answer the question. joe tidy, the bbc cyber correspondent. the question. joe tidy, the bbc cyber correspondent.— the question. joe tidy, the bbc cyber correspondent. hello, how are ou? cyber correspondent. hello, how are you? good. — cyber correspondent. hello, how are you? good. this _ cyber correspondent. hello, how are you? good, this is _ cyber correspondent. hello, how are you? good, this is a _ cyber correspondent. hello, how are you? good, this is a big _ cyber correspondent. hello, how are you? good, this is a big one. - cyber correspondent. hello, how are you? good, this is a big one. jake i you? good, this is a big one. jake moore, a global— you? good, this is a big one. jake moore, a global cyber _ you? good, this is a big one. jake moore, a global cyber security - moore, a global cyber security appetiser for europe's largest internet security group e set. a former police officer. that bodes well. and doctor victoria baines, professor of it at gresham college, former lead europol cybercrime centre and facebook trust and security manager for europe, formally, i think. security manager for europe, formally, ithink. what security manager for europe, formally, i think. what a line—up. joe, this data breach at the electoral commission is a big one, isn't it? it electoral commission is a big one, isn't it? , , ., electoral commission is a big one, isn't it? , , . v electoral commission is a big one, isn'tit? , , . isn't it? it is, yeah. it's big in terms of— isn't it? it is, yeah. it's big in terms of the _ isn't it? it is, yeah. it's big in terms of the number - isn't it? it is, yeah. it's big in terms of the number of - isn't it? it is, yeah. it's big in. terms of the number of people affected, potentially a0 million people on the electoral roll from 201a up to 2022, when they finally discovered the hackers and kicked them out. we don't when they kicked them out. we don't when they kicked them out. we don't when they kicked them out but we know they were in

there from august of 2021 right the way up to october 2022. it was probably longer because when you discover a cyberattack you first of all have to do discover where they are, then get them out and secure the system to stop them getting back in. it's a big one. the interesting thing is, there is obviously the massive amount of data, but that's largely already publicly available data and if the hackers wanted this kind of thing they probably could have got it. what i think is more series from my perspective is that this was a very sensitive public institution, the electoral commission, which was hacked and managed to not see the hackers for so long, they were in the system for a long time, they were probably patient, sophisticated adversaries who found their way in and stayed hidden. , w who found their way in and stayed hidden. , m ., ., _ hidden. the very fact that democracy is at the heart _ hidden. the very fact that democracy is at the heart of _ hidden. the very fact that democracy is at the heart of this, _ hidden. the very fact that democracy is at the heart of this, because - is at the heart of this, because democracy is at the heart of all our fears about the future. especially with al now being part of the

equation. that's why this would send a chill through a lot of people. yeah, this has been one of the number one fears with, in a democratic world can hackers get into electoral systems and change the vote? that has not happened here, the electoral commission are confident that the six by—elections that have taken place in the uk during this period were not affected. they say this is partly the dispersal, local councils run elections in this country but also because we have this old—fashioned and archaic system of pencils and paper and ballot boxes, which is quite hard to hack. what we have seen here is that hackers have found a way in and stayed in and look across e—mails, that's the big thing, i think, across e—mails, that's the big thing, ithink, they across e—mails, that's the big thing, i think, they were watching very closely, i imagine, the hackers, how the electoral commission carry out the elections that have happened. we have been worried about the situation, we have not had elections affected by this but we have come a step closer.

where might it leave the argument about electronic voting in future? i think it is a big tick in the box to say we should stay how we are doing it, with pencils and paper. this has been the fear and the worry. what happens if hackers get into electoral commission or electoral systems around the world and affect things grezda they have done that but they have been unsuccessful. if they wanted to effect a result they haven't managed to do that. we don't know what the long tail of this could be. if you have ia months or more access to an institution like the electoral commission's e—mails, you have a vast amount of data to draw from, in which case you might want to carry out further attacks down the line. we don't know who did this, they are calling them hostile actors but there are usual suspects that come to mind. we don't think it is a criminal attack, it doesn't have the hallmarks of a ransomware or extortion attempt. it looks like

a nation state that is hostile and trying to find out whether are weaknesses in the system. this ha--ened weaknesses in the system. this happened in _ weaknesses in the system. this happened in august of 2021 so why has it taken so long to come to light? because the hackers were very smart, all because _ light? because the hackers were very smart, all because the _ light? because the hackers were very smart, all because the electoral- smart, all because the electoral commission security wasn't good enough. we don't know how they got in. usually these things start with an e—mail, a phishing attack. someone in the electoral commission would have been sent an e—mail that had a piece of malware hidden away in a word document and they accidentally downloaded it and it affected the system. 0r accidentally downloaded it and it affected the system. or they may have accidentally given credential over to someone for a cloud storage or account they have with microsoft or account they have with microsoft or google or whoever. we don't know how it happened but we know they are in for a long time and that means they managed to stay hidden and they probably didn't start downloading things because that often rings alarm bells and that would also tally with what the electoral

commission have said, they don't see evidence of the hackers have downloaded vast amounts of data in the electoral roll because if they had have done it may have alerted the electoral commission sooner to their presence. but somehow they found their system was breached in october and there would have been a forensic process that said actually they have been in since august 2021 and then the process of securing the system and kicking them out begins. listeners and viewers, get in touch if you have experienced this, if you have been hacked. what are your thoughts and questions? i'm fascinated that you say they might just have been doing it to see if they could do it. because you get a bit of that when your credit card, when you are defrauded. you see payments on your statement like a7p, a7 p. just checking it out and testing. a7 p. just checking it out and testinu. . ~ a7 p. just checking it out and testinu. ., ~ ., , ., testing. that kind of thing is to see if you _ testing. that kind of thing is to see if you notice _ testing. that kind of thing is to see if you notice and _ testing. that kind of thing is to see if you notice and whether. testing. that kind of thing is to | see if you notice and whether or

testing. that kind of thing is to - see if you notice and whether or not it rings alarm bells. let's take a little bit and then see if we take bigger as we go. i think there is an element of that here but obviously we are talking about two different things. that's the criminal side of things, taking money from you in a fraudulent way, slowly and carefully. and then you have the cyber espionage, which is what we think this attack was. and cyber espionage, which is what we think this attack was.— cyber espionage, which is what we think this attack was. and what has ha--ened think this attack was. and what has happened in _ think this attack was. and what has happened in northern _ think this attack was. and what has happened in northern ireland - think this attack was. and what has happened in northern ireland is- happened in northern ireland is human error. the addresses and details of so many members of the police service of northern ireland have been subject to a data breach. that was a mistake from within, it is thought. 0bviously extremely serious given where it happened and to whom it happened. but that is something slightly different. yes. something slightly different. yes, it is, there _ something slightly different. yes, it is. there is _ something slightly different. yes, it is, there is no _ something slightly different. yes, it is, there is no element - something slightly different. yes, it is, there is no element of - it is, there is no element of attack. this is someone who works for the northern ireland police service, and they have accidentally uploaded to the internet a spreadsheet that they shouldn't have done. it is extremely serious, especially with safety implications there but that's a classic case of

human error. there have been cases, not as serious as this. for example, there was a government department that was fined recently, reprimanded by the information commissioner's office, where they had accidentally office, where they had accidentally sent a giant list of e—mails out to everybody. instead of putting on a blind carbon copy of your e—mail, they accidentally put it in the cc part. exposing everybody�*s e—mails. the police service of northern ireland issue is obviously much more serious and much bigger of a mistake but it's that kind of thing, a mistake by an employee that has led to the data breach. you mistake by an employee that has led to the data breach.— to the data breach. you know all this stuff- _ to the data breach. you know all this stuff- i _ to the data breach. you know all this stuff. i remember _ to the data breach. you know all this stuff. i remember going - to the data breach. you know all this stuff. i remember going on | to the data breach. you know all. this stuff. i remember going on the course at the bbc about passwords. you must have that in your password, have lots of different passwords. so many of us, wherever we are and wherever we work think, whatever, i willjust wherever we work think, whatever, i will just stick wherever we work think, whatever, i willjust stick in the same one so i can remember them. what's your own password etiquette best to knock i thought you were going to ask for my

password there. i know that, don't worry. a foreign actor told me. what's best practice? the worry. a foreign actor told me. what's best practice? the rules, the basic rules that _ what's best practice? the rules, the basic rules that are _ what's best practice? the rules, the basic rules that are given _ what's best practice? the rules, the basic rules that are given out - what's best practice? the rules, the basic rules that are given out by - basic rules that are given out by the national cyber security centre and every cyber security expert says it's the basic hygiene of information security. for example, don't use the same password across multiple accounts because if one of those services, let's say it's an app those services, let's say it's an app you downloaded years ago that you only tried out once or twice and then deleted from your phone, if that company is hacked then suddenly they have your e—mail, the password that you use for everything and that allows hackers to use simple tricks to get into multiple accounts just by having a go with that e—mail address and password pair. it is called credential stuffing and it is really common and unfortunately people use the same passwords across multiple accounts. that's number one. the best advice is to use a

password manager to score leeds store complex passwords in one place meaning you don't have to remember them all. everything the service i sign up for, create a new and complex password, put it in your manager. it is a fast, i have to use two factor authentication to get into the password manager, to get into the password manager, to get into my e—mail, it's a nightmare and it takes minutes out of your day but it takes minutes out of your day but it stops you, it takes you out of that low hanging fruit basket for hackers. ., ., ,~' hackers. low hanging fruit basket for hackers. _ hackers. low hanging fruit basket for hackers, brilliant. _ for hackers, brilliant. interestingly, covid was attributed to a huge rise in data attacks because so many people were doing stuff online. doctor victoria baines, professor of it at gresham college. baines, professor of it at gresham colle . e. ., baines, professor of it at gresham colleae. ., ,., ., baines, professor of it at gresham colleae. ., ., �*, college. hello. good morning. it's bean college. hello. good morning. it's began getting _ college. hello. good morning. it's began getting bigger _ college. hello. good morning. it's began getting bigger the - college. hello. good morning. it's began getting bigger the time. - college. hello. good morning. it'sl began getting bigger the time. how concerned are _ began getting bigger the time. time" concerned are you? began getting bigger the time. how concerned are you? i've _ began getting bigger the time. how concerned are you? i've worked - began getting bigger the time. how concerned are you? i've worked in l concerned are you? i've worked in ber concerned are you? i've worked in cyber security _ concerned are you? i've worked in cyber security for _ concerned are you? i've worked in cyber security for 20 _ concerned are you? i've worked in cyber security for 20 years - concerned are you? i've worked in cyber security for 20 years now i concerned are you? i've worked in. cyber security for 20 years now and it's fair— cyber security for 20 years now and it's fair to _

cyber security for 20 years now and it's fair to say myjob is safe. it is a _ it's fair to say myjob is safe. it is a growth _ it's fair to say myjob is safe. it is a growth industry. as you say, we are all— is a growth industry. as you say, we are all doing — is a growth industry. as you say, we are all doing so much more of our lives, _ are all doing so much more of our lives, including personaland lives, including personal and professional lives lives, including personaland professional lives online. but joe is absolutely right, yes, we are right— is absolutely right, yes, we are right to — is absolutely right, yes, we are right to be _ is absolutely right, yes, we are right to be concerned, but so much of what _ right to be concerned, but so much of what you — right to be concerned, but so much of what you your listeners encounter in terms _ of what you your listeners encounter in terms of _ of what you your listeners encounter in terms of cybercrime and safety threats _ in terms of cybercrime and safety threats can — in terms of cybercrime and safety threats can be countered with really basic digital hygiene, including, as joe was _ basic digital hygiene, including, as joe was saying, different strong passwords. but all so you know those annoying _ passwords. but all so you know those annoying software updates you get on your phone _ annoying software updates you get on your phone and tablet. please download those because they are packed _ download those because they are packed with security features, microsoft, apple and google and all the rest _ microsoft, apple and google and all the rest of— microsoft, apple and google and all the rest of them produce them so you don't have _ the rest of them produce them so you don't have to — the rest of them produce them so you don't have to think about your own security _ don't have to think about your own security. equally, what we know is we are _ security. equally, what we know is we are the — security. equally, what we know is we are the main vulnerability a lot of the _ we are the main vulnerability a lot of the time — we are the main vulnerability a lot of the time when it comes to cyber attacks _ of the time when it comes to cyber attacks. joe — of the time when it comes to cyber attacks. joe mentioned phishing links _ attacks. joe mentioned phishing links we — attacks. joe mentioned phishing links. we really have to be tough on

ourselves _ links. we really have to be tough on ourselves and take a minute to question. — ourselves and take a minute to question, who is that e—mail really from, _ question, who is that e—mail really from. where — question, who is that e—mail really from, where does the link really go? a lot of— from, where does the link really go? a lot of those things that seem a bit too _ a lot of those things that seem a bit too good to be true often are. i'm pleased to say that i have a free _ i'm pleased to say that i have a free talk— i'm pleased to say that i have a free talk on cyber security for humans — free talk on cyber security for humans available online. should be clicked on it? _ humans available online. should be clicked on it? please _ humans available online. should be clicked on it? please do, _ humans available online. should be clicked on it? please do, trust - humans available online. should be clicked on it? please do, trust that| clicked on it? please do, trust that link. you clicked on it? please do, trust that link- you can _ clicked on it? please do, trust that link. you can google _ clicked on it? please do, trust that link. you can google gresham - clicked on it? please do, trust that i link. you can google gresham college and then— link. you can google gresham college and then find the videos. we have safety— and then find the videos. we have safety videos specifically on these three _ safety videos specifically on these three things, software updates, password — three things, software updates, password hygiene, and just taking a second _ password hygiene, and just taking a second to _ password hygiene, and just taking a second to check web links and who an e-mail_ second to check web links and who an e-mail is— second to check web links and who an e—mail is really from. find second to check web links and who an e-mail is really from.— e-mail is really from. and there are tro'an e-mail is really from. and there are trojan horses _ e-mail is really from. and there are trojan horses as _ e-mail is really from. and there are trojan horses as well. _ e-mail is really from. and there are trojan horses as well. i _ e-mail is really from. and there are trojan horses as well. i remember i e-mail is really from. and there are| trojan horses as well. i remember a few years ago, one just said i love you. obviously the temptation to click. you. obviously the temptation to click. , , . ., , you. obviously the temptation to click. i, . ., , ., . click. cyber criminals watch the news and _ click. cyber criminals watch the news and to — click. cyber criminals watch the news and to look— click. cyber criminals watch the news and to look at _ click. cyber criminals watch the news and to look at the - click. cyber criminals watch the l news and to look at the calendar. when _ news and to look at the calendar. when michaeljackson died we saw a hu-e when michaeljackson died we saw a huge uptick in fake news stories. we

are talking _ huge uptick in fake news stories. we are talking about the election integrity right now. i think it's really— integrity right now. i think it's really important to say that again, we are _ really important to say that again, we are the — really important to say that again, we are the biggest vulnerability there — we are the biggest vulnerability there. during the us 2016 federal elections. — there. during the us 2016 federal elections, during the brexit vote, what _ elections, during the brexit vote, what we — elections, during the brexit vote, what we saw was an uptick in fake news _ what we saw was an uptick in fake news on _ what we saw was an uptick in fake news on social media. that was serving — news on social media. that was serving the _ news on social media. that was serving the interests, as we believe. _ serving the interests, as we believe, of russian states and others — believe, of russian states and others. but really we were the people — others. but really we were the people sharing that, we were the people _ people sharing that, we were the people falling for that. it's about developing our own critical thinking and make _ developing our own critical thinking and make sure we don't trust everything we see unless it comes from _ everything we see unless it comes from a _ everything we see unless it comes from a legitimate source like the bbc _ from a legitimate source like the bbc. , from a legitimate source like the sac. , y from a legitimate source like the sac. ,~ from a legitimate source like the sac. , y . bbc. yes, absolutely. well said, i will drink to _ bbc. yes, absolutely. well said, i will drink to that, _ bbc. yes, absolutely. well said, i will drink to that, albeit _ bbc. yes, absolutely. well said, i will drink to that, albeit a - bbc. yes, absolutely. well said, i will drink to that, albeit a strong l will drink to that, albeit a strong coffee. so, the russians are doing it, the chinese are doing it. are we doing it to other countries? i it, the chinese are doing it. are we doing it to other countries?- doing it to other countries? i think it's fair to say _

doing it to other countries? i think it's fair to say from _ doing it to other countries? i think it's fair to say from the _ doing it to other countries? i think it's fair to say from the last - doing it to other countries? i think it's fair to say from the last few i it's fair to say from the last few years. — it's fair to say from the last few years, revelations of things like phone _ years, revelations of things like phone hacking, former german premier angela _ phone hacking, former german premier angela merkel's phone, everybody's doing _ angela merkel's phone, everybody's doing it _ angela merkel's phone, everybody's doing it to— angela merkel's phone, everybody's doing it to everybody else to a certain — doing it to everybody else to a certain extent. that absolute high level espionage, certainly, everybody's doing it to everybody else _ everybody's doing it to everybody else in _ everybody's doing it to everybody else. in terms of the cyber criminal population. — else. in terms of the cyber criminal population, we know there are cyber criminals _ population, we know there are cyber criminals in — population, we know there are cyber criminals in all countries. they target — criminals in all countries. they target their own populations but importantly they target other country's populations because they are trading on the ignorance of how things— are trading on the ignorance of how things work— are trading on the ignorance of how things work in their own countries and are _ things work in their own countries and are trying to evade the police. that's_ and are trying to evade the police. that's where, asjake knows because we are _ that's where, asjake knows because we are both — that's where, asjake knows because we are both from a law enforcement background, that's where international investigation and international investigation and international cooperation, different countries, — international cooperation, different countries, law enforcement and security— countries, law enforcement and security services working with each other— security services working with each other is _ security services working with each other is really important because otherwise — other is really important because otherwise those cybercriminals can evade _ otherwise those cybercriminals can evade justice in their own countries.— evade justice in their own countries. ., , ., , countries. another couple of things, hishin: , countries. another couple of things,

phishing. sending — countries. another couple of things, phishing, sending e-mails _ countries. another couple of things, phishing, sending e-mails or - phishing, sending e—mails or messages pretending to be from reputable companies inducing people to reveal personal information like credit card numbers and passwords. and also sending a voice mail or phone call, vishing, trying to get information from people. we have all had that as well. and there is the ai aspect being introduced into all this making it all even more tricky and difficult to detect and easier to dissemble. i will be with you, jake. it's fantastic so far. stand by. joe in shrimpton, andrew in greenford. good morning. a very warm welcome. joe, what happened? hello. welcome. joe, what happened? hello, how are you? — welcome. joe, what happened? hello, how are you? l'm _ welcome. joe, what happened? hello, how are you? i'm fine. _ welcome. joe, what happened? hello, how are you? i'm fine. how— welcome. joe, what happened? hello, how are you? i'm fine. how are - welcome. joe, what happened? hello, how are you? i'm fine. how are you, i how are you? i'm fine. how are you, what did you — how are you? i'm fine. how are you, what did you go _ how are you? i'm fine. how are you, what did you go through, _ how are you? i'm fine. how are you, what did you go through, how - how are you? i'm fine. how are you, what did you go through, how did i how are you? i'm fine. how are you, what did you go through, how did it | what did you go through, how did it feel and what can we get from you, who were they? shall feel and what can we get from you, who were they?— feel and what can we get from you, who were they? all these questions, i would who were they? all these questions, i would love — who were they? all these questions, i would love to _ who were they? all these questions, i would love to know _ who were they? all these questions, i would love to know the _ who were they? all these questions, i would love to know the answer, - who were they? all these questions, i would love to know the answer, to | i would love to know the answer, to be honest. i went on a weekend away

to get away from work, literally, and the work was taken away from me, to put it in better words. i had a hackerfrom america, and to put it in better words. i had a hacker from america, and they managed to hack my business page. and with that they took everything, my contact details, clients�* details, phone numbers, e—mails, invoices, quotes, you name it, absolutely everything. haifa invoices, quotes, you name it, absolutely everything. how did you know this had _ absolutely everything. how did you know this had happened? - absolutely everything. how did you know this had happened? was - absolutely everything. how did you know this had happened? was it i absolutely everything. how did you | know this had happened? was it no longer there? know this had happened? was it no longerthere? i know this had happened? was it no longer there?— longer there? i went to sign in to check my messages _ longer there? i went to sign in to check my messages and - longer there? i went to sign in to check my messages and it - longer there? i went to sign in to check my messages and it said i longer there? i went to sign in to l check my messages and it said the page had been deleted. from facebook somehow. i don�*t know if they picked up somehow. i don�*t know if they picked up on it or not but i wasn�*t able to sign in. itjust said the page has been disabled. i had no access, i had nothing. i had no business to

run. my diary, everything. had you coied it run. my diary, everything. had you copied it all _ run. my diary, everything. had you copied it all and _ run. my diary, everything. had you copied it all and back— run. my diary, everything. had you copied it all and back to _ run. my diary, everything. had you copied it all and back to top? - run. my diary, everything. had you copied it all and back to top? no, | copied it all and back to top? no, ou can't copied it all and back to top? no, you can't do _ copied it all and back to top? no, you can't do that _ copied it all and back to top? iifr, you can't do that on facebook. copied it all and back to top? no, j you can't do that on facebook. -- backed it you can't do that on facebook. —— backed it up. how did that feel? you can't do that on facebook. -- l backed it up. how did that feel? oh m backed it up. how did that feel? oi my god, it backed it up. how did that feel? i my god, it felt like the backed it up. how did that feel? oi my god, it felt like the world had come down on me. my private e—mails with my clients, prices, everything. some of them, bank details, my bank details, which is really stupid. i have learned, why should you rely on a platform that is clearly not safe? that�*s been my biggest lesson. it took about three months. i tried to contact them but they didn�*t really get back to me. it�*s like e—mailing a ghost. you e—mail, and nothing comes back to you. not even an

acknowledgement to say they have got your e—mail and they are working on it. that would normally happen one to one, really. it. that would normally happen one to one. really-— to one, really. there is so much to address and _ to one, really. there is so much to address and so _ to one, really. there is so much to address and so much _ to one, really. there is so much to address and so much to _ to one, really. there is so much to address and so much to answer i to one, really. there is so much to| address and so much to answer and focus on and we will do more of that presently. some breaking newsjust in, a group of people who survived the sinking of a boat carrying migrants from tunisia to italy say a1 other people died in the accident. the four survivors were brought to the sicilian island of lampedusa this morning. it�*s understood italian authorities are currently trying to verify the number of people who died. there will be more on this on the bbc news website and app throughout the day and on radio 5 live and sounds. a group of people who survived the sinking of a boat carrying migrants from tunisia to italy say a1 other people died in the accident. the

four survivors were brought to the sicilian island of lampedusa this morning. it�*s understood italian authorities are trying to identify the number of people who died. more on the bbc news channel, on 5 live throughout the day. until ten o�*clock, right here, right now, we are discussing a huge problem for society. we are discussing hacking. we heard the experience of in shirehampton. andrew in greenford. jake will comment shortly. andrew, what happened? it jake will comment shortly. andrew, what happened?— what happened? it was ten or 11 ears what happened? it was ten or 11 years ago- _ what happened? it was ten or 11 years ago- i _ what happened? it was ten or 11 years ago- i was _ what happened? it was ten or 11 years ago. i was on _ what happened? it was ten or 11 years ago. i was on my - what happened? it was ten or 11 years ago. i was on my pc- what happened? it was ten or 11 years ago. i was on my pc at. what happened? it was ten or 11 i years ago. i was on my pc at home doing — years ago. i was on my pc at home doing online — years ago. i was on my pc at home doing online banking, in its early stages — doing online banking, in its early stages. 0ut doing online banking, in its early stages. out of the blue, unbelievably, i had an account with one of— unbelievably, i had an account with one of the — unbelievably, i had an account with one of the major building societies and over— one of the major building societies and over £40,000 was removed from my account— and over £40,000 was removed from my account and _ and over £40,000 was removed from my account and transferred to another

bank— account and transferred to another bank account, a bank account, i had a joint _ bank account, a bank account, i had a joint account with my wife, but it was proved — a joint account with my wife, but it was proved the money didn't go to our account, was proved the money didn't go to ouraccount, it was proved the money didn't go to our account, it went elsewhere to stop someone somehow got hold of my information— stop someone somehow got hold of my information from the building society— information from the building society account and transferred that money _ society account and transferred that money over. i was shocked, i saw it happen, _ money over. i was shocked, i saw it happen, and — money over. i was shocked, i saw it happen, and it has proven it hadn't gone _ happen, and it has proven it hadn't gone to— happen, and it has proven it hadn't gone to us, — happen, and it has proven it hadn't gone to us, it had gone to a completely obscure account, we had been hacked. we were reimbursed fully _ been hacked. we were reimbursed fully but — been hacked. we were reimbursed fully but i — been hacked. we were reimbursed fully. but i don't think they ever caught— fully. but i don't think they ever caught the person who actually did it. , ., ., . it. there is that feeling of, which jo touched _ it. there is that feeling of, which jo touched on. — it. there is that feeling of, which jo touched on, it's _ it. there is that feeling of, which jo touched on, it's like _ it. there is that feeling of, which | jo touched on, it's like somebody jo touched on, it�*s like somebody getting into your house. how dare they, violation. i getting into your house. how dare they, violation.— they, violation. i was stunned, i thou~ht, they, violation. i was stunned, i thought. how — they, violation. i was stunned, i thought, how on _ they, violation. i was stunned, i thought, how on earth - they, violation. i was stunned, i thought, how on earth have - they, violation. i was stunned, i thought, how on earth have my| thought, how on earth have my details — thought, how on earth have my details been observed on the pc? it's ridiculous. eyes are prying on you and _ it's ridiculous. eyes are prying on you and can — it's ridiculous. eyes are prying on you and can see your details, and how they— you and can see your details, and how they got hold of it. there is no other— how they got hold of it. there is no other way— how they got hold of it. there is no other way they could have access to

my details — other way they could have access to my details. my account was actually book based, i had a book, it wasn't on a _ book based, i had a book, it wasn't on a card _ book based, i had a book, it wasn't on a card or— book based, i had a book, it wasn't on a card or anything. it all went suddenly— on a card or anything. it all went suddenly out of the blue, everything totally _ suddenly out of the blue, everything totally removed. i lost my faith in online _ totally removed. i lost my faith in online banking straightaway so i 'ust online banking straightaway so i just don't— online banking straightaway so i just don't do it and haven't done it since _ just don't do it and haven't done it since i_ just don't do it and haven't done it since. i always go into the branch or use _ since. i always go into the branch or use the — since. i always go into the branch or use the hole in the wall or whatever~ _ or use the hole in the wall or whatever-— or use the hole in the wall or whatever. ,, ., whatever. standing in the queue, usin: the whatever. standing in the queue, using the dodgy _ whatever. standing in the queue, using the dodgy by _ whatever. standing in the queue, using the dodgy by rote, - whatever. standing in the queue, using the dodgy by rote, it's - whatever. standing in the queue, | using the dodgy by rote, it's much using the dodgy by rote, it�*s much safer. i using the dodgy by rote, it's much safer. . , using the dodgy by rote, it's much safer. ., , ., , ., safer. i have been on the show before. safer. i have been on the show before- l'm _ safer. i have been on the show before. i'm a _ safer. i have been on the show before. i'm a published - safer. i have been on the show before. i'm a published poet . safer. i have been on the show. before. i'm a published poet and have _ before. i'm a published poet and have a _ before. i'm a published poet and have a poet scammer. if there is time _ have a poet scammer. if there is time to— have a poet scammer. if there is time to read it, it is four stances. not quite. — time to read it, it is four stances. not quite, but i do love a poem. you can tweet it and i will retweet it. find some safe online means to get it out there. i do want to ask, and

i appreciate that, what rhymes with scammer? well... jake moore, what you think about what you heard from jo, andrew? welcome.— jo, andrew? welcome. hello. it's an increasinu jo, andrew? welcome. hello. it's an increasing threat _ jo, andrew? welcome. hello. it's an increasing threat we _ jo, andrew? welcome. hello. it's an increasing threat we are _ jo, andrew? welcome. hello. it's an increasing threat we are seeing - jo, andrew? welcome. hello. it's an increasing threat we are seeing all i increasing threat we are seeing all the time. i was working in law enforcement many years ago seeing this problem arise. i saw the birth of things like the dark web, vpns, cryptocurrencies. back then in 2010, even then i was chatting to my sergeant thinking, where are we going, into this minefield of problems. unfortunately back then the chiefs were quite happily burying their head in the sand thinking it might go away. talking about money and resources, it was a problem then. fast forward more than a decade and we still talk about this constant and increasingly

sophisticated attacks. the fact they use psychology to manipulate people, easily accessing data that has been breached in many different attacks on companies, including government attacks now where, like we have seen yesterday, the data potentially stolen wasn�*t even the primary target. we are in a time now where we have really got to up our awareness. unfortunately the onus is on us because we can�*t rely on anyone else to effectively protect us. we have to build on that awareness and advice and protect ourselves the best we can. is it someone _ ourselves the best we can. is it someone in — ourselves the best we can. is it someone in moscow, _ ourselves the best we can. is it someone in moscow, or is it someone in, you know, a basement in manchester having a bit of fun? what�*s that balance? like manchester having a bit of fun? what's that balance? like victoria sa s what's that balance? like victoria says rightly _ what's that balance? like victoria says rightly we — what's that balance? like victoria says rightly we have _ what's that balance? like victoria says rightly we have attackers - says rightly we have attackers everywhere. 0f says rightly we have attackers everywhere. of course we have the nation state, threats, targeting governments, they are continually

and relentlessly targeting government organisations and looking for weaknesses. as we have seen come out yesterday, the weaknesses that were located, to give a digital recce to find out how they operate and update. looking back to 2017 when the nhs went down with wannacry, we saw there was a small time frame where xp hadn�*t been updated and that�*s when they attacked. then you have financially motivated attackers targeting businesses and individuals, particularly with ransomware, a huge threat. that tends to worry people tremendously. businesses don�*t know what to do because they might pay the attackers but still have the data released. it�*s a wild west on the internet. data released. it's a wild west on the internet.— the internet. what about jo in shirehampton _ the internet. what about jo in shirehampton whose - the internet. what about jo in|

shirehampton whose business the internet. what about jo in - shirehampton whose business stuff on facebook vanished into thin air, contacts and details. what is that about? it contacts and details. what is that about? , , , ., about? it is extremely frustrating. the olice about? it is extremely frustrating. the police are _ about? it is extremely frustrating. the police are still— about? it is extremely frustrating. the police are still scratching - the police are still scratching their heads thinking, how on earth can we investigate this? who their heads thinking, how on earth can we investigate this? who would want that and _ can we investigate this? who would want that and why? _ can we investigate this? who would want that and why? jo _ can we investigate this? who would want that and why? jo has - can we investigate this? who would want that and why? jo has gone - can we investigate this? who would want that and why? jo has gone but she is forever scratching her head, why would anyone want that, what will they do with it and why go to the trouble to get it? if it is trouble, it could be easy. they could hold _ trouble, it could be easy. they could hold that _ trouble, it could be easy. they could hold that data _ trouble, it could be easy. they could hold that data to - trouble, it could be easy. tia: could hold that data to ransom, to extort that person to pay a certain amount of money in cryptocurrency to get them to pay that. i have seen businesses even on instagram have their accounts held to ransom. around £2000 for a small business, hoping they will pay that ransom to get it back. of course there is no guarantee. that�*s the problem we live with. we have to make sure people are equipped with that advice to protect themselves and their businesses. shire to protect themselves and their businesses-— to protect themselves and their businesses. �* ,., , , ,

businesses. are some texts, experts tell us how — businesses. are some texts, experts tell us how to — businesses. are some texts, experts tell us how to keep _ businesses. are some texts, experts tell us how to keep information - tell us how to keep information safe, that�*s all very well but once we have been forced to give information to a government agency we lose control over its security. another one, can you ask the experts if there is an efficient way to delete online accounts you don�*t use. how safe is google password manager? victoria can you pick up on that? ., , ., , that? one of the things i have been recommending. _ that? one of the things i have been recommending, particularly - that? one of the things i have been | recommending, particularly because that? one of the things i have been l recommending, particularly because i recognise _ recommending, particularly because i recognise some of your listeners will be _ recognise some of your listeners will be in — recognise some of your listeners will be in a — recognise some of your listeners will be in a situation where their partners — will be in a situation where their partners are spying on their private communications. coercive control is a big _ communications. coercive control is a big problem when it comes to digital— a big problem when it comes to digital devices. 0ne a big problem when it comes to digital devices. one of the things you can _ digital devices. one of the things you can do — digital devices. one of the things you can do as a general hygiene measure. — you can do as a general hygiene measure, when you are in your phone, looking _ measure, when you are in your phone, looking at— measure, when you are in your phone, looking at your phone, just look at the apps— looking at your phone, just look at the apps you don't use any more. i�*m the apps you don't use any more. i'm doinu the apps you don't use any more. i'm doin: it. the apps you don't use any more. i'm doing it- it — the apps you don't use any more. i'm doing it- it is— the apps you don't use any more. i'm doing it- it is a _ the apps you don't use any more. i'm doing it. it is a pain _ the apps you don't use any more. i'm doing it. it is a pain and _ the apps you don't use any more. i'm doing it. it is a pain and a _ the apps you don't use any more. i'm doing it. it is a pain and a hassle - doing it. it is a pain and a hassle and it takes— doing it. it is a pain and a hassle and it takes a _ doing it. it is a pain and a hassle and it takes a while, _ doing it. it is a pain and a hassle and it takes a while, but - doing it. it is a pain and a hassle and it takes a while, but there i doing it. it is a pain and a hassle l and it takes a while, but there are services _ and it takes a while, but there are services also that can make those

requests — services also that can make those requests to delete your data, by going _ requests to delete your data, by going out— requests to delete your data, by going out there, trawling your data, finding _ going out there, trawling your data, finding which services have it. you have _ finding which services have it. you have to _ finding which services have it. you have to let — finding which services have it. you have to let them into your e—mail accounts, — have to let them into your e—mail accounts, which is a bit of a trust issue _ accounts, which is a bit of a trust issue in— accounts, which is a bit of a trust issue in itself, but then they will fire off— issue in itself, but then they will fire off those requests to all those different _ fire off those requests to all those different services, to either justify— different services, to either justify why they still have your data _ justify why they still have your data or — justify why they still have your data or remove it. i work in securities— data or remove it. i work in securities sol data or remove it. i work in securities so i am an absolute stickler— securities so i am an absolute stickler for these things. if i get an e-mail— stickler for these things. if i get an e—mailfrom stickler for these things. if i get an e—mail from somebody from an online _ an e—mail from somebody from an online shop— an e—mail from somebody from an online shop and i don't buy from them _ online shop and i don't buy from them any— online shop and i don't buy from them any more, and it's a hassle to receive _ them any more, and it's a hassle to receive that — them any more, and it's a hassle to receive thatjunk them any more, and it's a hassle to receive that junk e—mail, them any more, and it's a hassle to receive thatjunk e—mail, i will always— receive thatjunk e—mail, i will always unsubscribe at the bottom of those _ always unsubscribe at the bottom of those e—mails. and make sure that if they keep _ those e—mails. and make sure that if they keep sending me those e—mails, remind _ they keep sending me those e—mails, remind them that they shouldn't be. because _ remind them that they shouldn't be. because we do have things like the data protection regulation, that we are still— data protection regulation, that we are still signed up to, even though we have _ are still signed up to, even though we have left the eu. that means of people _ we have left the eu. that means of people no— we have left the eu. that means of people no longer have a legitimate reason _ people no longer have a legitimate reason to—

people no longer have a legitimate reason to store our data, and if we ask them _ reason to store our data, and if we ask them specifically to take us off their lists, — ask them specifically to take us off their lists, legally they are required to do so. it does require some _ required to do so. it does require some work— required to do so. it does require some work on all our parts to check those _ some work on all our parts to check those apps. — some work on all our parts to check those apps, delete the ones we don't use. those apps, delete the ones we don't use and _ those apps, delete the ones we don't use and in— those apps, delete the ones we don't use. and in the case of people who might— use. and in the case of people who might be _ use. and in the case of people who might be in— use. and in the case of people who might be in coercive or abusive relationships, if you don't recognise an app on your phone, somebody— recognise an app on your phone, somebody else might have put it there _ somebody else might have put it there, and it is a really good reason — there, and it is a really good reason to— there, and it is a really good reason to remove those apps you don't — reason to remove those apps you don't use _ reason to remove those apps you don't use any more. jeff in london, good morning. good morninu , jeff in london, good morning. good morning. thank— jeff in london, good morning. good morning, thank you _ jeff in london, good morning. good morning, thank you for _ jeff in london, good morning. (limp. morning, thank you for the time today. very serious, it happened to me injune, latejune, what seem to have happened was i went for lunch around the west end and i decided to download an app and realised my

apple id password did not work. i�*m very familiar with my tech have lots of devices, and i can believe to my eyes that my apple id password did not work, then i tried, dried, dried, checked my e—mail, a different e—mail associated with it, got an e—mailfrom different e—mail associated with it, got an e—mail from apple seeing your password was reset it in the morning, i was absolutely shocked. went back in because i did not have my other verification device, i have to be verification and what happened next was that we press the code, it was verify, i went back and reset my password, i went to the e—mail, change the e—mail address, they remained... another e—mail from apple saying your password has been what they called reset it and i told apple, this went on back and forth

between the sky trying to gain in, i believe they successfully reset the password, they don�*t need to know my previous password, but they can reset your new password and what was really shocking was to be verification the apple told me there is absolutely no way someone can get your password unless they have access to another device, i have my phone and know all my devices, there�*s only one verification trusted device, so it was really shocking to me, and it went back and forth until one in the morning i then assigned a new e—mail address, to my apple id, and it seems to have been fine. i think what�*s really important to know is that your phone which backs up all your notes, photos, contacts, everything across what you store on your iphone back—up, once the fraudster, have hiked in, could then retrieve all your information. luckily i don�*t have any sensitive information, but they could back up onto the new

device and have access to your information, so it�*s really quite shocking, and what apple told me, there�*s absolutely no way it could happen to me, but someone successfully reset my password to a new password and i was going back and forth three or four times with this person apple could tell me, could not tell me what happened. echoing what we�*ve heard, is an absolutely horrible feeling, isn�*t it. we�*ve got the experts, get in touch, keep them coming, your experiences. more in the next half hour. what is the time? 9:3a. and here is the news. a former northern ireland justice minister says police officers they are frightened after their daughter was published online

by mistake. includes names, roles and work locations. 0ne by mistake. includes names, roles and work locations. one said some will be considering their futures with the force. a1 people reported to have died every boat capsized off of the town coast, carrying people in tunisia, four survivors taken to the island of lampedusa. legal action taken against yuki�*s six biggest water companies has been said to have been without merit, it was an environmental consultant claims they have underreported pollution and overcharged customers. it turns out that walking 5000 steps a day is enough to seriously improve your health. fresh research carried about by teams from poland and the united states involving more than a quarter of million people. that is the news. the sport, you managerfor wolves who parted company with their previous last night in what the club says was an amicable split. it means they will be back in work less than two months after being sacked by bournemouth. gillingham said his ——

but said his team should have one. ten cops fell to lure the opposition and there are six amortised the night before 12 premier league sides, quitting tottenham and chelsea, enter the draw for round two. anthonyjoshua�*s promoter says two. anthony joshua�*s promoter says he two. anthonyjoshua�*s promoter says he is almost certainly fight with the aunty wilder will happen next. joshua faces roper on wednesday. great britain�*s neil says he never imagined to get into double figures led alone 19 world titles, picking up led alone 19 world titles, picking up its latest gold medal in the cycling world championships in glasgow in the mixed b team sprint.

data now, water later. we will do that because of something you always want talk about. so we are going to take a deep dive. why are we doing this this morning? question, our waterfirms taking the this this morning? question, our water firms taking the p? you�*ve seen pictures of the river is full of sewage, overflow alerts and the triathletes at the weekend, at least 57 falling ill with vomiting and diarrhoea after swimming through, swimming in sunderland. back in may, what uk apologise on behalf of its members to not do enough to stop

sewage spills. that was the case of sorry seems to be the hardest tired but still, i wonder what it�*s like because over summer 2022 dozens of beaches were closed you may well remember, due to the high levels of toxic waste, so once more onto the beach dear friends, toxic waste, so once more onto the beach dearfriends, how toxic waste, so once more onto the beach dear friends, how is 2023 so far for you? beach dear friends, how is 2023 so farfor you? the beach dear friends, how is 2023 so far for you? the story today, facing legal action accused of underreporting pollution incidents and overcharging customers, the cases went to take a long time to play out but the companies involved could at the end of the day end up paying a lot of money in compensation for underreporting, allegedly. are the water companies taking the pthat is at ten.

cyberfraud, cybercrime, hacking, your experiences and questions, to excellent experts on board. mitch, what happened?— excellent experts on board. mitch, what happened? morning. i suffered a coule of what happened? morning. i suffered a couple of months _ what happened? morning. i suffered a couple of months ago _ what happened? morning. i suffered a couple of months ago something - what happened? morning. i suffered a couple of months ago something they| couple of months ago something they call sim fraud. which when you say, people assume that just call sim fraud. which when you say, people assume thatjust mean somebody got your phone number and that�*s a bit irritating but in fact what they can do once they have your phone number and take control of your mobile phone as they can then use this two point verification process where you get a four digit pin to your mobile phone, to basically take over all of my online

presences, so one saturday afternoon i suddenly got a notification, funnily enough on my phone because it was on the wi—fi, that said a large payment had gone to a name i did not recognise from my bank account and long story short they had pretended to be me, gotta you sim card, taken over my phone number, use that to say i had forgotten my password to every single online presence i have that they could possibly fine, then emptied my bank account, all of its overdraft, all of my building society and were controlling my e—mail and every other online presence i had. now, the bank and building society were very quick to act and shut down the accounts and return the money to make, but i have spent a couple of months worrying about how to make sure i have protected myself and all those areas. but the key point i wanted to make and make sure people were aware of is that the only thing these people needed to know to get a new

sim card was the date approximately within a couple of days of my last bill and the amount within a couple of pounds of my last bill. now, how they got that, i have no idea because i don�*t get paper bills and i don�*t get e—mail notifications, so they somehow got those two pieces of info and got my sim card replace, which cut my phone off and give them complete control over all of my accounts and the phone company dissented their positions saying they did not insist on photo verification because some people don�*t have a driving licences or passports, and then final point is that when i reported this to the fraud line, which is where you have to report this to, not directly to the police, received notification back to say that this was not technically a crime and no further action would be taken, even though we knew the account that the money had gone through, an account in

swindon with a name on it, i�*m sure the name was false but we knew where the name was false but we knew where the account was. nobody was interested in recovering the money or taking any further action. abs, or taking any further action. a perfect point. first world problems, may be? but what a nightmare. victoria, speak to much. it�*s enough being done? early law enforcement agencies taking this seriously enough? element we have a real problem with education in law enforcement, resources and law enforcement, resources and law enforcement, but one thing we have not spoken about is what companies have to do and i think mitch�*s case really gets to the heart of our the company is doing enough? all of your callers today... company is doing enough? all of your callers today- - -_ callers today... have been caught in a loop trying — callers today... have been caught in a loop trying to _ callers today... have been caught in a loop trying to reclaim _ callers today... have been caught in a loop trying to reclaim access - callers today... have been caught in a loop trying to reclaim access to i a loop trying to reclaim access to their— a loop trying to reclaim access to their phone. this case about banking fraud, _ their phone. this case about banking fraud, what— their phone. this case about banking fraud, what we have seen in the last

ten or— fraud, what we have seen in the last ten or so— fraud, what we have seen in the last ten or so years are some of those projects_ ten or so years are some of those projects have got much more stringent, and if your listener now try and _ stringent, and if your listener now try and transfer some money online they will— try and transfer some money online they will have to match the account details _ they will have to match the account details with the account details that the — details with the account details that the bank has, etc, you will get all of— that the bank has, etc, you will get all of these — that the bank has, etc, you will get all of these fraud warnings, it has -ot all of these fraud warnings, it has got a _ all of these fraud warnings, it has got a lot— all of these fraud warnings, it has got a lot harder, and what we find with the _ got a lot harder, and what we find with the social media companies and bil with the social media companies and big companies like apple is that there _ big companies like apple is that there are — big companies like apple is that there are not enough people on the planet— there are not enough people on the planet to _ there are not enough people on the planet to staff the phone lines to deal with — planet to staff the phone lines to deal with 7 billion people around the world, that is genuine challenge that means people like joe and jeff are in— that means people like joe and jeff are in getting somebody sensible to speak— are in getting somebody sensible to speak to _ are in getting somebody sensible to speak to. in the case of mitch, the mobile _ speak to. in the case of mitch, the mobile phone companies, someone asks to switch— mobile phone companies, someone asks to switch that simmer get a replacement sim, should there not be a security— replacement sim, should there not be a security check? shouldn't that company— a security check? shouldn't that company then be getting in touch with mitch by some other means to say, did _

with mitch by some other means to say, did you — with mitch by some other means to say, did you actually ask for this? that's_ say, did you actually ask for this? that's what— say, did you actually ask for this? that's what banks do when there is a potentially _ that's what banks do when there is a potentially suspicious transaction. there _ potentially suspicious transaction. there is— potentially suspicious transaction. there is more to be done by those mobile _ there is more to be done by those mobile phone companies. absolutely, lots of people — mobile phone companies. absolutely, lots of people saying _ mobile phone companies. absolutely, lots of people saying that. _ mobile phone companies. absolutely, lots of people saying that. we'll- mobile phone companies. absolutely, lots of people saying that. we'll be i lots of people saying that. we�*ll be right back with that story but also the breaking news, about a migrant ship that sunk off the coast of italy, survivors of the accident say a1 other people died. 0ur corresponding intel is more. what do we know? that corresponding intel is more. what do we know? �* ., , ., we know? at the moment there is not a hue we know? at the moment there is not a huge amount _ we know? at the moment there is not a huge amount that _ we know? at the moment there is not a huge amount that we _ we know? at the moment there is not a huge amount that we know, - we know? at the moment there is not a huge amount that we know, and - we know? at the moment there is not a huge amount that we know, and as| a huge amount that we know, and as you just mentioned, a1 people have been killed of a shipwreck near sicily in the south of italy. this is being reported by an italian news agency and widely reported across italian media. they are citing

accounts from survivors. what we do know is that only four people survived that shipwreck. it is for men and one woman they were rescued by the italian coastguard and they told rescuers they were on a boat that had set off from tunisia and was trying to reach italy will stop the boat was sailing in the sicilian channel and at some point it capsized and sank. we don�*t know when that happens at what time, this is something that we are currently looking into what we do know is the four survivors were brought into the island of lampedusa this morning, early in the morning, and that is when they shared their story with rescuers. . ~' when they shared their story with rescuers. ., ~ , ., , . ., , rescuers. thank you very much, awful news. a1

rescuers. thank you very much, awful news- 41 people _ rescuers. thank you very much, awful news. a1 people reported _ rescuers. thank you very much, awful news. a1 people reported dead - rescuers. thank you very much, awful news. a1 people reported dead there, the migrant ship that sank off the coast of italy. much more on that on the bbc news channel throughout the day and on bbc radio 5 live and bbc sounds. you can get in touch with us on this issue that we are talking about, which is hacking, a global phenomenon on which is causing mayhem and chaos and you can get to us on the usual line. after ten o�*clock we are talking about sewage. quite a case from mitch. let me do a couple of texts. loads of them. when are isps going to be made to take some responsibility, or messages that go through isps servers and

they don�*t take any response ability even when they�*re made aware says tony. this one, i generally go by the maxim if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. one thing that prevents hacking, and why more people don�*t do it on facebook is to make yourfriends people don�*t do it on facebook is to make your friends list visible only to me. it stops them sending fake friend requests, so why hack you in the first place, and for another, who else needs to know? it is happened to you.— who else needs to know? it is ha ened to ou. , .,, ., ~ happened to you. yes, i was working last wednesday _ happened to you. yes, i was working last wednesday and _ happened to you. yes, i was working last wednesday and went _ happened to you. yes, i was working last wednesday and went to - happened to you. yes, i was working last wednesday and went to go - happened to you. yes, i was working last wednesday and went to go on i happened to you. yes, i was working j last wednesday and went to go on to show my client, show my client a picture and i was suddenly signed in as alexandra dario, which is a famous artist, so i automatically knew something had happened and then i looked and e—mailed and it said i had change my password, my name,

phone number and e—mail address, so what facebook suddenly disabled the account because it was an impersonation of a famous artist, so i contacted facebook on every single avenue, and every single avenue and theyjust avenue, and every single avenue and they just say they will get back to britain turn what they have done is let my business out, so my businesses linked my personal facebook on my calendar is for my clients, the appointments, i don�*t know know when i have clients coming in because that account has totally come of it due to it being attached to my personal account. so a big impact. to my personal account. so a big imact. , ., to my personal account. so a big imact. ,., impact. the impact is on you emotionally? _ impact. the impact is on you emotionally? devastated, ii impact. the impact is on you - emotionally? devastated, i have lost all my reviews. _ emotionally? devastated, i have lost all my reviews, my _ emotionally? devastated, i have lost all my reviews, my calendar, - emotionally? devastated, i have lost all my reviews, my calendar, loss i all my reviews, my calendar, loss potential clients that would have been messaging me to have their hair done, huge impact, really. and

facebook are doing nothing about it and the needs to be an avenue to get it back, really. and the needs to be an avenue to get it back, really-— it back, really. very good point. jake, what _ it back, really. very good point. jake, what do — it back, really. very good point. jake, what do you _ it back, really. very good point. jake, what do you make - it back, really. very good point. jake, what do you make of- it back, really. very good point. jake, what do you make of that| it back, really. very good point. - jake, what do you make of that and how much of this is pure mischiefmaking?- how much of this is pure mischiefmaking? this is gut wrenching — mischiefmaking? this is gut wrenching to _ mischiefmaking? this is gut wrenching to hear _ mischiefmaking? this is gut wrenching to hear and - mischiefmaking? this is gut wrenching to hear and i - mischiefmaking? this is gut| wrenching to hear and i have mischiefmaking? this is gut - wrenching to hear and i have tested the slots. _ wrenching to hear and i have tested the slots. i— wrenching to hear and i have tested the slots, i wrote a blog once about how you _ the slots, i wrote a blog once about how you can — the slots, i wrote a blog once about how you can get instagram and facebook— how you can get instagram and facebook accounts back that have been _ facebook accounts back that have been hacked. it is extremely difficult, _ been hacked. it is extremely difficult, facebook as a whole are effectively faceless, there is no one at— effectively faceless, there is no one at the end of it, which is so frustrating _ one at the end of it, which is so frustrating that in your time of need _ frustrating that in your time of need there is no one answering calls and e-mails — need there is no one answering calls and e—mails. they tend to give you advice _ and e—mails. they tend to give you advice on _ and e—mails. they tend to give you advice on what you should have done, which _ advice on what you should have done, which is _ advice on what you should have done, which is not _ advice on what you should have done, which is not what you want to hear at that _ which is not what you want to hear at that moment, so there are a few tips out— at that moment, so there are a few tips out there to help but it is not always _ tips out there to help but it is not always going to be the case, unfortunately. 0ne always going to be the case, unfortunately. one thing that will help going forward, and the previous two collars, — help going forward, and the previous two collars, in fact, talking about some _ two collars, in fact, talking about some frauds and attacking the fraud

itself, _ some frauds and attacking the fraud itself, the _ some frauds and attacking the fraud itself, the one really good bit of advice _ itself, the one really good bit of advice i'd — itself, the one really good bit of advice i'd like to say is to try and use an _ advice i'd like to say is to try and use an authenticator app, instead of relying _ use an authenticator app, instead of relying on— use an authenticator app, instead of relying on sms, is a text message -based _ relying on sms, is a text message -based two— relying on sms, is a text message —based two factor authentication, and this— —based two factor authentication, and this will help if anyone is able to ring _ and this will help if anyone is able to ring your— and this will help if anyone is able to ring your telecoms company and -et to ring your telecoms company and get hold _ to ring your telecoms company and get hold of— to ring your telecoms company and get hold of that phone and report to be you _ get hold of that phone and report to be you and — get hold of that phone and report to be you and suggest to them that you are someone else, by taking away the sms part _ are someone else, by taking away the sms part of— are someone else, by taking away the sms part of it and moving on to an authenticator app which is free, it should _ authenticator app which is free, it should secure those accounts going forward, _ should secure those accounts going forward, and if you do do that, make sure you _ forward, and if you do do that, make sure you take — forward, and if you do do that, make sure you take away the sms option going _ sure you take away the sms option going forward. why the question i'm asking everybody, what happened? good morninu. i everybody, what happened? good morning- i was — everybody, what happened? good morning. i was hacked _ everybody, what happened? (limp. morning. i was hacked about five

weeks ago, quite a serious act because the scammers managed to get in to almost all my e—mail contacts which are a lot, i have a lot of friends and cousins and family everywhere all around the world... it seemed one evening about ten someone for me and said i�*m sorry to hear about your granddaughter, i did not know she was ill with cancer. and the scam was to ask people on my behalf to send her a gift card from amazon, totally scanned, totally unauthorised, and some of my friends actually were kind enough to go out and buy these amazon gift cards at a cost of £200 each. and i thought well, how many people would do that,

it sounded very genuine to them, it sounded particularly difficult for some people because they rang me and i had a lot of calls asking me about my granddaughter and i happen to be out for the 12 hour period that this was all happening and of course the result was the my e—mail platform took me down and close my account and i sympathise with what jake was saying about the faceless and formless contacts that you would need if you want to return online, because it�*s all advise on what you should have done and then they have the silly business of trying to send you an e—mailand the silly business of trying to send you an e—mail and you can�*t receive

it because your e—mail account has been closed. by, it because your e-mail account has been closed-— been closed. a friend went ex-directory _ been closed. a friend went ex-directory and _ been closed. a friend went ex-directory and did - been closed. a friend went ex-directory and did over. been closed. a friend went i ex-directory and did over the been closed. a friend went - ex-directory and did over the phone ex—directory and did over the phone a nasty person on the other end of the form what is my number and the person on the other end of the fun side i cannot tell you, you are ex—directory. it�*s a little bit like that. how frustrating for you. yes. that. how frustrating for you. yes, it was and — that. how frustrating for you. yes, it was and l — that. how frustrating for you. yes, it was and i must _ that. how frustrating for you. yes, it was and i must say, _ that. how frustrating for you. yes, it was and i must say, in _ that. how frustrating for you. isis it was and i must say, in pursuance of your programme i find that you do a lot of listening and your nonverbal is sure how good a listener you are. thank you for the opportunity. the listener you are. thank you for the opportunity-— opportunity. the pleasure is mine and anything _ opportunity. the pleasure is mine and anything i _ opportunity. the pleasure is mine and anything i say _ opportunity. the pleasure is mine and anything i say or— opportunity. the pleasure is mine and anything i say or do _ opportunity. the pleasure is mine and anything i say or do our- opportunity. the pleasure is mine and anything i say or do our a - opportunity. the pleasure is mine l and anything i say or do our a wince or grimace about is nothing to the contribution that you guys make thank you very much. what do you

make of that, victoria? playing on people�*s make of that, victoria? playing on ---eole' ,, ., make of that, victoria? playing on .eole.'-.., , make of that, victoria? playing on neole'--.., people's compassion. absolutely and he has described _ people's compassion. absolutely and he has described how _ people's compassion. absolutely and he has described how his _ people's compassion. absolutely and he has described how his account - people's compassion. absolutely and j he has described how his account has been used _ he has described how his account has been used to target other people by pulling _ been used to target other people by pulling on— been used to target other people by pulling on their heartstrings. we've seen that— pulling on their heartstrings. we've seen that also on social media in the last— seen that also on social media in the last few years where i'm sure some _ the last few years where i'm sure some of— the last few years where i'm sure some of your listeners will have received — some of your listeners will have received messages from someone where it is their— received messages from someone where it is their child or a friend of theirs — it is their child or a friend of theirs that says help, i'm in hospital— theirs that says help, i'm in hospital in thailand i need money to pay for— hospital in thailand i need money to pay for my— hospital in thailand i need money to pay for my treatment, we see this quite _ pay for my treatment, we see this quite a _ pay for my treatment, we see this quite a lot— pay for my treatment, we see this quite a lot on whatsapp and other messaging services, i've lost my phone, _ messaging services, i've lost my phone, i— messaging services, i've lost my phone, i get these, i know it's a scam _ phone, i get these, i know it's a scam because i don't have kids but if you're _ scam because i don't have kids but if you're any— scam because i don't have kids but if you're any particular situation where _ if you're any particular situation where you — if you're any particular situation where you have a child, if it hits the mark, — where you have a child, if it hits the mark, and this is what social engineering is all about, the mark, and this is what social engineering is allabout, we the mark, and this is what social engineering is all about, we also have _ engineering is all about, we also have the — engineering is all about, we also have the business version of this, so if— have the business version of this, so if your— have the business version of this, so if your listeners are running their— so if your listeners are running

their own _ so if your listeners are running their own businesses or... that give car technique — their own businesses or... that give car technique is also used within businesses and companies because you can compromised a business account and e-mail_ can compromised a business account and e—mail someday and see can you -et and e—mail someday and see can you get a _ and e—mail someday and see can you get a gift— and e—mail someday and see can you get a gift card for such and such a person's— get a gift card for such and such a person's birthday and then that gets wiped _ person's birthday and then that gets wiped away. that is profit driven cyber— wiped away. that is profit driven cyber crime, way for the cyber criminal— cyber crime, way for the cyber criminal who want to make money can do so _ criminal who want to make money can do so with— criminal who want to make money can do so with those gift cards, because they can _ do so with those gift cards, because they can cash them in, buy things or they can cash them in, buy things or they can _ they can cash them in, buy things or they can sell — they can cash them in, buy things or they can sell them on.— they can sell them on. jenny in the oval, wonderful— they can sell them on. jenny in the oval, wonderful calls _ they can sell them on. jenny in the oval, wonderful calls this - they can sell them on. jenny in thej oval, wonderful calls this morning, great listeners and viewers, one of them isjenny. what happened? high. them is jenny. what happened? high, brilliant show, _ them is jenny. what happened? high, brilliant show, need _ them isjenny. what happened? ii gi, brilliant show, need another error i think. this happened to me on saturday, i did something very silly and i know a lot of people would have done the same, i clicked on and i know a lot of people would have done the same, i clicked on an ad on facebook that took me to a website, a well—known company that i thought it was a well—known company but it

turned out to be fake, i want to buy a lot of stuff, put my details in and write at the end when i press the button turned $2 and i thought, that doesn�*t feel right, and then when i looked at the website i realise... but they took their money, i cancelled my card, but it�*s interesting because someone else did exactly the same that i know and they had the same experience, the card was declined but i think the... i got a phone call last night from someone in cyprus, so question to the experts, should i be worried? should she be worried? yes the experts, should i be worried? should she be worried?— the experts, should i be worried? should she be worried? yes and no, ersonal should she be worried? yes and no, personal data _ should she be worried? yes and no, personal data that _ should she be worried? yes and no, personal data that is _ should she be worried? yes and no, personal data that is the _ should she be worried? yes and no, personal data that is the currency i personal data that is the currency of its _ personal data that is the currency of its own —

personal data that is the currency of its own these days. most of our data is _ of its own these days. most of our data is unfortunately out there on the dark— data is unfortunately out there on the dark lead and what i tend to say to people _ the dark lead and what i tend to say to people is, if this isjust happen, _ to people is, if this isjust happen, it's probably already happened as well, so just about being _ happened as well, so just about being aware of what criminals can such _ being aware of what criminals can such data — being aware of what criminals can such data. stolen data mean scammers can use _ such data. stolen data mean scammers can use the _ such data. stolen data mean scammers can use the dad to convince members of the _ can use the dad to convince members of the public— can use the dad to convince members of the public that they can be trusted — of the public that they can be trusted and the user in this gateway to convince — trusted and the user in this gateway to convince individuals to share even _ to convince individuals to share even more _ to convince individuals to share even more sensitive information. what _ even more sensitive information. what we've — even more sensitive information. what we've seen is they got straight through— what we've seen is they got straight through those web pages and manipulating higher by looking like genuine _ manipulating higher by looking like genuine websites to call right the way through and they're collecting all the _ way through and they're collecting all the information, way through and they're collecting allthe information, including credit— allthe information, including credit card that at the end, and then— credit card that at the end, and then they— credit card that at the end, and then they will sell at off or try and use — then they will sell at off or try and use it _ then they will sell at off or try and use it. luckily, just something we do _ and use it. luckily, just something we do realise with the dollar symbol that something was up and she cancelled her card, which is great. so many— cancelled her card, which is great. so many people don't even realise until afterwards and still think how on earth _ until afterwards and still think how on earth did this happen, so it's about— on earth did this happen, so it's about being aware are not being

afraid _ about being aware are not being afraid to — about being aware are not being afraid to say no to a phone call, and if— afraid to say no to a phone call, and if we — afraid to say no to a phone call, and if we want to finish on al, what's — and if we want to finish on al, what's coming in the future, the hello— what's coming in the future, the hello mum — what's coming in the future, the hello mum scam already starting to use at, _ hello mum scam already starting to use at, very— hello mum scam already starting to use ai, very clever technology, to sound _ use ai, very clever technology, to sound like — use ai, very clever technology, to sound like a — use ai, very clever technology, to sound like a family member in the same— sound like a family member in the same scam— sound like a family member in the same scam of seeing hello and they are in— same scam of seeing hello and they are in need — same scam of seeing hello and they are in need of help. this is something to be very worried about. butjust_ something to be very worried about. butjust keeping aware of what scammers are able to do. we butjust keeping aware of what scammers are able to do. we have to kee on scammers are able to do. we have to keep on it- — scammers are able to do. we have to keep on it- can _ scammers are able to do. we have to keep on it- can i _ scammers are able to do. we have to keep on it. can i come _ scammers are able to do. we have to keep on it. can i come in _ scammers are able to do. we have to keep on it. can i come in very - keep on it. can i come in very quickly? _ keep on it. can i come in very quickly? just _ keep on it. can i come in very quickly? just to _ keep on it. can i come in very quickly? just to warn - keep on it. can i come in very quickly? just to warn people | keep on it. can i come in very i quickly? just to warn people not keep on it. can i come in very - quickly? just to warn people not to click on ads unless they really know they are kosher on facebook, because that�*s what i did and they are so convincing. i�*m a completely convincing, yeah. i have had them. i had them from major companies and seen them on my phone and there is a second reason, oh, i better get in

touch with them as well. don�*t feel bad, it is easily done. we touch with them as well. don't feel bad, it is easily done.— bad, it is easily done. we say aoodb e bad, it is easily done. we say goodbye to — bad, it is easily done. we say goodbye to our _ bad, it is easily done. we say goodbye to our viewers - bad, it is easily done. we say goodbye to our viewers on i bad, it is easily done. we say. goodbye to our viewers on bbc bad, it is easily done. we say - goodbye to our viewers on bbc news and bbc two now but you can carry on listening on bbc radio 5 live, or on bbc science. —— sounds.

live from london, this is bbc news. concerns raised about the safety of police officers in northern ireland after a data breach revealed every staff member�*s name, role and work location. the latest effort to protect the amazon. abortion rights groups claim victory in an ohio special election that became a proxy battle for a separate vote in november. the repertory lanes has been sentenced to ten years in prison for shooting and wounding us hip—hop star megan thee stallion. hello and thank you forjoining us. here in the uk, a major data breach

in northern ireland was one of the