bit of mm summer warmth of this bit of summer warmth of this week but some of that has begun to ebb away. yesterday eastern england was the warm spot at around 27 celsius. i think some more of that summer warmth is going to ebb away into the weekend, some slightly cooler weather, and showery, always driest towards the south and east, furthest away from the centre of this area low pressure. yes, another weekend with low pressure in charge but that does not mean it is going to be raining all of the time, there will be some dry gaps in between the showers. overnight tonight we are going to see some quite heavy rain swinging across northern ireland into the western side of scotland, the occasional shower elsewhere, clearer skies further east, another fairly muggy night but not as warm as last night. into tomorrow, this band of rain pushing eastwards, some particularly heavy rain moving across parts of scotland. behind that, a mixture of sunny spells and showers, ahead of that, parts of eastern and southern england not

seeing too many showers, there will be some, possibly heavy and thundery but i think there will be a few paces towards the south—east which stay pretty much dry. it is going to be windy, particularly around some western coasts, temperatures a mere 100 hours later, after legionella bacteria was found on the barge. is this an ignomious end to rishi sunak�*s big migrant week? can the government put this disastrous week behind them and reboot their migrant policies? joe pike's been taking soundings from inside government. and we'll be joined by the former austalian foreign minister who wrote

a review of britain's border policy and labour's shadow immigration minister. also tonight... in the latest episode of our good newsnight strand, mark examines how germany weaned itself off russian gas in double quick time, contributed to the falling price of energy and avoided this. well, catastrophe. i mean, european crisis, the shutdown of much of central european industrial and manufacturing production, then causing supply shortages elsewhere. that didn't happen, which is quite extraordinary. and it's exactly 50 years tonight that hip—hop was born in the bronx. the multi—talented founder of a tribe called quest, ali shaheed muhammad, celebrates its birthday on his birthday, talking to newsnight about how hip—hop conquered the mainstream. it became a place for people to have an identity and to feel important and to know that they had

a lot of value and worth in who they are. good evening. at 5:30pm tonight, the sight of the last of the 39 migrants disembarking the barge bibby stockholm after traces of legionella bacteria were found in the water system, was certainly not the end to the government's heralded "small boats week" it would have wanted. the home office say the welfare of asylum seekers remains of the utmost priority and that they and their contractors are following all protocol and advice from dorset council's environmental health team. there has been one malfunction after another, some political, others practical, involving everything from four star hotels to a deputy conservative party chairman, not on message. to add to that, after windy conditions at the start of the week, fine weather yesterday and today brought 1,094 migrants across the channel. so where does this leave both the policy and the government's strategy of bigging up its self—styled progress on migrants with its "small boats week." joe's here.

what has been happening? there is certainly frustration _ what has been happening? there is certainly frustration within - certainly frustration within government towards number 10 for framing this as small boats week with one government source telling me, "some of this week was unpredictable but some was eminently foreseeable." i don't think you can plan for legionella bacteria being found on the bibby stockholm but you can expect large numbers of people crossing the channel this type of year which is why we had this new 2023 record of 755 people crossing yesterday and it is also the week where the number over the last five years has topped 100,000 but the response from number 10 and sources i spoke to remained bullish, arguing that we could have ignored this policy issue but they say, "we are going to show the public we are on their side and hammering or parts of their side and hammering or parts of the system to make the difference." they point to their turkey deal to try to tackle gangs, the effort to tackle what they would characterise as crooked lawyers but also their

legal migration legislation pronto so where is labour on all this today? they say they have their own five—point plan for this recognition within the party that they need to provide more detail on it and we expect more from keir starmer next month, not necessarily untold from his team some new policy to be unveiled but far more detail. there seems to be a recognition that perhaps labour are ahead in the polls largely because of the government position rather than their alternatives and i'm told that a shadow cabinet ministers have been told ahead of their conference to approach their speeches with the thought, if not them, why us ie, if not the conservatives, why us? what is our alternative? we need to give more information. i'm told in the bibby stockholm it will be a minimum of weeks before the migrant are back on that and the big set piece this autumn will surely be the supreme court battle over rwanda deportations. we expect a hearing in october in a judgment to be brought in november or december. thank october in ajudgment to be brought in november or december. thank you very much- —

in a moment i'll talk to labour's shadow immigration minister, stephen kinnock, but first i'm joined by alexander downer, the former australian foreign secretary and author of that country's controversial offshore migrant processing policy, and who advised the uk government on its border policy last year. good evening to both of you. alexander downer, wasn't this a shambolic end to rishi sunak�*s big migration week? i shambolic end to rishi sunak's big migration week?— migration week? i think there are alwa s migration week? i think there are always details _ migration week? i think there are always details that _ migration week? i think there are always details that go _ migration week? i think there are always details that go wrong... i always details that go wrong... that's a pretty big detail. it’s that's a pretty big detail. it's “ust a that's a pretty big detail. it's just a detail _ that's a pretty big detail. it�*s just a detail and in the flock of time it will be quickly forgotten. but the really important issue for them is to get the rwanda scheme going. and if they can win in the supreme court and can implement the rwanda scheme, then i'm very confident that will have the same effect as the narrow scheme had in australia and that will stop these dangerous journeys across the

channel. dangerous “ourneys across the channel. ., dangerous “ourneys across the channel. . , . channel. -- the nauru scheme. the government — channel. -- the nauru scheme. the government is _ channel. -- the nauru scheme. the government is looking _ channel. -- the nauru scheme. the government is looking for _ channel. -- the nauru scheme. the government is looking for five - channel. -- the nauru scheme. the government is looking for five or . government is looking for five or six more barges so in yourfuture they abandoned that idea and stick to what they want to do in terms of army camps and so forth? i to what they want to do in terms of army camps and so forth?— army camps and so forth? i don't think barges _ army camps and so forth? i don't think barges are _ army camps and so forth? i don't think barges are an _ army camps and so forth? i don't think barges are an issue, - army camps and so forth? i don't think barges are an issue, i - army camps and so forth? i don't think barges are an issue, i can't| think barges are an issue, i can't see why there is any controversy about barges, as long as they are reasonably civilised, they don't have to be luxurious, but as long as they are reasonably civilised, that would be fine. they have got to put the people somewhere and a comfortable barge which is good enough for workers on all rigs is going to be fine.— going to be fine. there will be children there _ going to be fine. there will be children there as _ going to be fine. there will be children there as well. - going to be fine. there will be | children there as well. exactly, that's fine- _ children there as well. exactly, that's fine. returning - children there as well. exactly, that's fine. returning to - children there as well. exactly, that's fine. returning to what l children there as well. exactly, i that's fine. returning to what you said, that's fine. returning to what you said. these _ that's fine. returning to what you said, these are _ that's fine. returning to what you said, these are mere _ that's fine. returning to what you said, these are mere details, - that's fine. returning to what you said, these are mere details, youj said, these are mere details, you are a former adviser to home secretary priti patel so should there be a sharper focus and should that focus all be on rwanda? lilo. there be a sharper focus and should that focus all be on rwanda? no, i'm not sure about _ that focus all be on rwanda? no, i'm not sure about that _ that focus all be on rwanda? no, i'm not sure about that because - that focus all be on rwanda? no, i'm not sure about that because there - not sure about that because there are different things you have to do.

one of the challenges the government has is the processing of asylum claims. i know there is a backlog there but it is very complicated process to try establish the genuineness of individual claims that people make a persecution. make more safe routes _ that people make a persecution. make more safe routes then? _ that people make a persecution. make more safe routes then? you _ that people make a persecution. make more safe routes then? you still - more safe routes then? you still have to process _ more safe routes then? you still have to process the _ more safe routes then? you still have to process the claims, - more safe routes then? you still have to process the claims, no l have to process the claims, no matter routes you have, you still have to have a system of processing the claims and that can be very time consuming and difficult and so while they are being processed, you have to how's people somewhere. and if you are taking up hotels in country towns, you are going to destroy the tourist trade... 50 towns, you are going to destroy the tourist trade. . ._ tourist trade... so it's a bad idea? you have got _ tourist trade... so it's a bad idea? you have got to — tourist trade... so it's a bad idea? you have got to find _ tourist trade... so it's a bad idea? you have got to find a _ tourist trade... so it's a bad idea? you have got to find a solution. i tourist trade... so it's a bad idea? i you have got to find a solution. you think the whole _ you have got to find a solution. you think the whole hotels has been not of the best? lilo. think the whole hotels has been not of the best?— of the best? no, i think it is going to be better— of the best? no, i think it is going to be better to _ of the best? no, i think it is going to be better to use _ of the best? no, i think it is going to be better to use a _ of the best? no, i think it is going to be better to use a decent - of the best? no, i think it is going to be better to use a decent barge as long as the water on it is ok! you supported the rwanda policy but

you are the architect of the manus island detention centre in papua new guinea, and australia's supreme court to shut it down, it was deemed unconstitutional. they receive compensation of 70 million australian dollars.— compensation of 70 million australian dollars. that's not actually true, _ australian dollars. that's not actually true, the _ australian dollars. that's not actually true, the australian | australian dollars. that's not - actually true, the australian high court did not shut down... the supreme _ court did not shut down... the supreme court. _ court did not shut down... the supreme court. australia - court did not shut down... the supreme court. australia as i court did not shut down... the supreme court. australia as a| court did not shut down... the - supreme court. australia as a high court, not supreme court. australia as a high court. not a _ supreme court. australia as a high court, not a supreme _ supreme court. australia as a high court, not a supreme court. - supreme court. australia as a high court, not a supreme court. it's i court, not a supreme court. it's just what it's called. but it didn't shut it down.— shut it down. what was the compensation _ shut it down. what was the compensation for? - shut it down. what was the compensation for? manusl shut it down. what was the - compensation for? manus island is not in australia, _ compensation for? manus island is not in australia, it's _ compensation for? manus island is not in australia, it's in _ compensation for? manus island is not in australia, it's in papua - compensation for? manus island is not in australia, it's in papua newl not in australia, it's in papua new guinea. this was a matter for papua new guinea. we closed the manus island processing centre because we did not need it any more. because we had nauru as well. and nauru still remains open but nauru is pretty much the processing centre is pretty much the processing centre is pretty much empty and let me make this point so nobody misunderstands. by

having this offshore processing, we stopped people making these dangerous journeys on small boats, we stop the trade altogether. it has been incredibly successful. it has been incredibly successful. it has been much criticised and there is a whole lot of opposition to it, i appreciate that, but it has been very successful and in doing so, we have saved lives.— have saved lives. thank you very much. stephen _ have saved lives. thank you very much. stephen kinnock, - have saved lives. thank you very much. stephen kinnock, last - have saved lives. thank you very i much. stephen kinnock, last week labour said, much. stephen kinnock, last week laboursaid, "we much. stephen kinnock, last week labour said, "we have to accept barges as residences if they are still being used if we come to power." if that still your policy today? power. " if that still your policy toda ? ~ ., , ., ., today? we would never start from here but the _ today? we would never start from here but the reason _ today? we would never start from here but the reason the _ today? we would never start from here but the reason the barges . today? we would never start from | here but the reason the barges are being _ here but the reason the barges are being used — here but the reason the barges are being used is because the conservatives have completely lost control _ conservatives have completely lost control of _ conservatives have completely lost control of our asylum system, 173,000 — control of our asylum system, 173,000 people in the backlog. we would _ 173,000 people in the backlog. we would have a system which processes claims _ would have a system which processes claims quickly and enables people to -et claims quickly and enables people to get on _ claims quickly and enables people to get on with their lives if they are genuine — get on with their lives if they are genuine asylum seekers and remove them _ genuine asylum seekers and remove them to— genuine asylum seekers and remove them to safe countries if they are not. ~ ~' ., them to safe countries if they are not. ~ ~ ., , , ., them to safe countries if they are not. we know the best laid plans when it comes _ not. we know the best laid plans when it comes to _ not. we know the best laid plans when it comes to processing - not. we know the best laid plans i when it comes to processing we've just heard that it takes a very long

time. if you inherit barges and military camps, will you have to use those until such times as perhaps you built detention estates? we are auoin to you built detention estates? we are going to inherit _ you built detention estates? we are going to inherit a _ you built detention estates? we are going to inherit a terrible mess - you built detention estates? we are going to inherit a terrible mess if i going to inherit a terrible mess if we are _ going to inherit a terrible mess if we are privileged to form the next government. we don't have a magic wand, _ government. we don't have a magic wand, we _ government. we don't have a magic wand, we cannot get people off those barges _ wand, we cannot get people off those barges and _ wand, we cannot get people off those barges and out of those camps and out of— barges and out of those camps and out of those hotels on day one but our number — out of those hotels on day one but our number one priority will be to do that _ our number one priority will be to do that we — our number one priority will be to do that. we will deliver that through— do that. we will deliver that through our five—point plan which is to bear— through our five—point plan which is to bear down on the backlog by giving — to bear down on the backlog by giving the home office the right level— giving the home office the right level of— giving the home office the right level of seniority in terms of caseworkers and decision—makers and by doing _ caseworkers and decision—makers and by doing and _ caseworkers and decision—makers and by doing and returns deal with the european — by doing and returns deal with the european union because that is the only thing _ european union because that is the only thing that will really deter the small boat crossings. you know that deal with — the small boat crossings. you know that deal with the _ the small boat crossings. you know that deal with the eu _ the small boat crossings. you know that deal with the eu will— the small boat crossings. you know that deal with the eu will not - the small boat crossings. you know that deal with the eu will not be - the small boat crossings. you know that deal with the eu will not be a i that deal with the eu will not be a quick affair. can you give a guarantee that people will be off barges, out of army camps or whatever within the first six months, within the first year if you come to power? you months, within the first year if you come to power?— months, within the first year if you come to power? you ask a straight tuestion come to power? you ask a straight question and _ come to power? you ask a straight question and i— come to power? you ask a straight question and i can _ come to power? you ask a straight question and i can give _ come to power? you ask a straight question and i can give a _ come to power? you ask a straight question and i can give a straight i question and i can give a straight answer— question and i can give a straight answer what is question and i can give a straight answerwhat is i'm question and i can give a straight

answer what is i'm not going to give answer what is i'm not going to give a specific— answer what is i'm not going to give a specific timeframe. we will be inheriting — a specific timeframe. we will be inheriting a total and utter shambles, and it's frankly disgraceful the conservatives have done to _ disgraceful the conservatives have done to our asylum system. we will try to _ done to our asylum system. we will try to fix _ done to our asylum system. we will try to fix it— done to our asylum system. we will try to fix it as soon as humanly possible — try to fix it as soon as humanly possible but i can't give you a specific — possible but i can't give you a specific time.— possible but i can't give you a specific time. possible but i can't give you a secific time. ., , , ., specific time. one of the things you are talkin: specific time. one of the things you are talking about _ specific time. one of the things you are talking about is _ specific time. one of the things you are talking about is expanding - specific time. one of the things you are talking about is expanding safe| are talking about is expanding safe routes so what countries are we talking about? give me three countries you would add on to the safe route plan?— countries you would add on to the safe route plan? what we need to do is net a safe route plan? what we need to do is get a return _ safe route plan? what we need to do is get a return deal— safe route plan? what we need to do is get a return deal with _ safe route plan? what we need to do is get a return deal with the - safe route plan? what we need to do is get a return deal with the eu - safe route plan? what we need to do is get a return deal with the eu put l is get a return deal with the eu put at the _ is get a return deal with the eu put at the guid — is get a return deal with the eu put at the quid pro quo but that is to have _ at the quid pro quo but that is to have very— at the quid pro quo but that is to have very controlled and well—managed pathways have very controlled and well— managed pathways so that people can apply _ well— managed pathways so that people can apply and come safely to the uk but in _ can apply and come safely to the uk but in return for that, the eu accept — but in return for that, the eu accept that anyone that comes across the channel— accept that anyone that comes across the channel in a small boat will get sent straight back to mainland europe — sent straight back to mainland euro e. , . ., , sent straight back to mainland euroe. , _, , . europe. give me three countries. we have in afghanistan, _ europe. give me three countries. we have in afghanistan, ukraine, - europe. give me three countries. we have in afghanistan, ukraine, hong i have in afghanistan, ukraine, hong kong, i can give a lot of routes you might consider but give me three point would you be talking about syria, iran, eritrea, sudan? give me three. �* , ., .,

syria, iran, eritrea, sudan? give me three. �*, ., ., , three. it's going to be in negotiation _ three. it's going to be in negotiation with - three. it's going to be in negotiation with the - three. it's going to be in - negotiation with the european three. it's going to be in _ negotiation with the european union i don't _ negotiation with the european union i don't know how many negations you been in. i_ i don't know how many negations you been in, i don't put my cards face up been in, i don't put my cards face up on the — been in, i don't put my cards face up on the table in a negotiation but one thing we will prioritise is family— one thing we will prioritise is family reunion. huge numbers of people come in small boats are coming — people come in small boats are coming to— people come in small boats are coming to the uk because they are family— coming to the uk because they are family connections. they are the people _ family connections. they are the people who are easy prey for the people smugglers so if you had a safe and legal routes based on family— safe and legal routes based on family reunion as a starting point for negotiations with the eu, so they take people back to mainland europe _ they take people back to mainland europe come in small boats, that's the only deterrent that is actually going _ the only deterrent that is actually going to work point of the rwanda plan, with— going to work point of the rwanda plan, with all due respect to alexander, if they are only going to take 200 or— alexander, if they are only going to take 200 or 300 people and can only process— take 200 or 300 people and can only process a couple hundred claims a year which is what the appeals court said. it will— year which is what the appeals court said, it will not work as a deterrent.— said, it will not work as a deterrent. �* , ., , ., deterrent. let's look at this from a different way. is _ deterrent. let's look at this from a different way. is a country - deterrent. let's look at this from a different way. is a country we take j different way. is a country we take far fewer per capita migrants than

any other european neighbour. that labour now perhaps start to talk positively about the benefits rather than the problems of migration? there are people who have come to our country — there are people who have come to our country and contributed a huge amount, that is why the processing of asylum _ amount, that is why the processing of asylum claims is so important. there _ of asylum claims is so important. there are — of asylum claims is so important. there are 173,000 people in the backlog — there are 173,000 people in the backlog and many of those, 75% are given _ backlog and many of those, 75% are given a _ backlog and many of those, 75% are given a positive decision, of asylum claims, _ given a positive decision, of asylum claims, and — given a positive decision, of asylum claims, and those people get leave to remain _ claims, and those people get leave to remain and it is an important contribution to our economy and society — contribution to our economy and society. but you also have to identify— society. but you also have to identify the people are not genuine asylum _ identify the people are not genuine asylum seekers and remove them from the country— asylum seekers and remove them from the country in order to of the system _ the country in order to of the s stem. ., , ., ., . ., system. leading up to an election, and if a labour _ system. leading up to an election, and if a labour government - system. leading up to an election, and if a labour government but. and if a labour government but income would there be a change of tone? would you be saying, we welcome, as it were, new blood in this country?— this country? our tone will remain as it is now. _ this country? our tone will remain as it is now, which _ this country? our tone will remain as it is now, which is _ this country? our tone will remain as it is now, which is about - this country? our tone will remain as it is now, which is about we - this country? our tone will remain i as it is now, which is about we need as it is now, which is about we need a consistent. — as it is now, which is about we need a consistent, based on control and compassion— a consistent, based on control and compassion that make a system. control— compassion that make a system. control and compassion go together. if control and compassion go together. if you _ control and compassion go together. if you want _ control and compassion go together. if you want to reinforce people's trust _ if you want to reinforce people's trust in — if you want to reinforce people's trust in a — if you want to reinforce people's trust in a system, it has to be well controlled — trust in a system, it has to be well controlled and managed. if trust in a system, it has to be well controlled and managed.— trust in a system, it has to be well controlled and managed. if you look at ital , controlled and managed. if you look at italy. right. _ controlled and managed. if you look at italy, right, 90,000 _ controlled and managed. if you look at italy, right, 90,000 this - controlled and managed. if you look at italy, right, 90,000 this year- at italy, right, 90,000 this year take it in, the uk is 100,000 since

it ona take it in, the uk is 100,000 since it on a different order of magnitude. what i'm saying is, do we have the big problem that you say we have? taste have the big problem that you say we have? ~ ., ., , .,, ., have? we have a problem in that we have? we have a problem in that we have 173,000 _ have? we have a problem in that we have 173,000 people _ have? we have a problem in that we have 173,000 people in _ have? we have a problem in that we have 173,000 people in the - have? we have a problem in that we have 173,000 people in the backlogl have 173,000 people in the backlog costing _ have 173,000 people in the backlog costing £6 million a day in hotels which _ costing £6 million a day in hotels which is — costing £6 million a day in hotels which is undermining the public trust _ which is undermining the public trust in — which is undermining the public trust in the system. if you undermine the public trust, you lose the compassion we need so we had to -et the compassion we need so we had to get that— the compassion we need so we had to get that back which means proper competence, well—managed leadership competence, well— managed leadership on this— competence, well— managed leadership on this and _ competence, well—managed leadership on this and that will only come with a labour— on this and that will only come with a labour government.— on this and that will only come with a labour government. thank you very much. a labour government. thank you very much- come--- _ we talk to a tribe called quest's ali shaheed muhammed as hiphop turns fifty today. at the start of the war in ukraine, the west feared that russia's near stranglehold on gas supplies, and to a lesser extent oil to europe, could, when eu sanctions quickly kicked in, cause a collapse of key industries in the more dependent nations.

germany was especially vulnerable to the russian energy cut—off, and protested that it would be catastrophic for the country's economy. but, infact, germany has led the way. in our new strand, good newsnight, we're looking for positive developments, stories of progress. here's mark with our second installment. russia's war on ukraine and the resulting western sanctions produced a huge energy price shock. it required hundreds of billions to mitigate, but it could have been much worse and gone on much longer. well, catastrophe. i mean, european crisis, a shutdown of much of central european industrial and manufacturing production and then causing supply shortages elsewhere. and that didn't happen, which is quite extraordinary. the price of gas has fallen steeply from its high in september last year to a level about equal to where it was two years ago. it's still not cheap in historical terms,

as you'll know from your bill, but it's a tenth of its peak, due in part to successful measures by european countries. the reason why prices were already climbing two years ago was that russia was limiting supplies to europe deliberately to run down their gas reserves. in preparation of the war, russia was already, let's say, working on the true economics of the warfare. germany had rashly built its whole energy policy around piping in cheap russian gas. once the invasion started, german leaders insisted a rapid change of direction was impossible. a month after the start of the war, chancellor olaf scholz was warning of a profound recession, costing hundreds of thousands ofjobs, if russian oil and gas was abandoned overnight. but germany's switchover

has been a key factor in wider european policy. before the invasion of ukraine, it got russian gas through the yamal and nord stream 1 pipelines. nord stream 2 was about to start pumping. switching away required them to build coastal terminals to unload liquefied natural gas, or lng, from the us and others. it wasn't done overnight, but it was at breakneck speed. they also bought more gas from norway, and at the same time germany took steps to cut consumption and switch more quickly to renewables. but the german coalition has also faced protests for opting to burn more coal — in the short term, at least. germany has made a very significant effort to diversify by putting lng terminals, lng import terminals, along its coastline, something

which never happened before. and germany was the country which never had a terminal. now it's going to be six at least. so that provides possibility for importing lng supplies, provided lng is available and at what price. so there is a very strong drive on part of germany to reduce dependence. despite everything that's happened, some european countries, like hungary, austria and slovakia, still use a lot of russian gas. but now that's just 15% of total eu imports. a much colder winter than the last mild one could take this back up. we are altogether in a much better scenario compared to last year because we are anticipating, let's say, the worst—case scenario, which would be a similar

situation as in 2022. that's the good news. we have much more, let's say, information and analysis and assessment about the, let's say, possible risks. but at the same time, there is still, in my view, a risk of high volatility when it comes to gas prices. while we all felt the impact in our gas bills last winter, the prophecies of the doomsters were confounded, and the price on international markets has dropped away very sharply since, due to a combination of energy conservation, moving to renewables and new sources of supply. in that sense, putin's use of the gas weapon was defied. so what about the winter ahead? can this positive outlook be maintained?

european gas storage tanks are once again being filled for the coming winter, and early signs suggest prices will not reach last autumn's highs. but there's still some wildcards. if we get a very cold winter snap, combined with the fact that if russia completely cuts off the gas it's still supplying — about 30 billion cubic meters — then it could get quite difficult. this winter, i think, is the key one because if you look slightly further afield, two years down the line, there's a huge weight of new lng fields coming on from the middle east, particularly qatar, that could completely fill lost gas from russia. so it's just actually getting through this winter. and that really is the key takeaway and the positive news from this crisis — that a high degree of european dependence on russian gas has been ended, and that the kremlin's use of the energy weapon backfired.

on this night 50 years ago there was a party in the bronx, and at that party hip—hop was born when the jamaican american dj cool herc used a basic two turntable to mix the drum beats of the same record. ever since there has been explosion after explosion of hip hop, giving voice to generations of young african americans first and foremost, from grandmaster flash and the furious five, to nwa, queen latifah, jay—z, eminem and cardi b. hip hop has not been without controversy — for the violence and misogny embedded in some artists' lyrics, but the music's versitility has been phenomenal. one of the most talented and most successful collectives of musicians, djs, mcs and producers were a tribe called quest, who kicked off in 1990 and were hailed as the pioneers of jazz—based alternative hip—hop. earlier today, very fittingly on his birthday i spoke to the multi

talented founder member, ali shaheed muhammad. the first time i became aware of hip—hop, i was about eight years old, and across the street from where i lived was a schoolyard, and during the summer time the djs would set up their equipment in the schoolyard and have these parties. i was too young to attend these parties, but outside my fire escape i had such a great view. fast forward a couple more years, then we have rapper�*s delight. here's wonder mike, hank and master gee — the sugar hill gang. # the hippie to the hip hip hop—a you don't stop. # we're rockin' out, baby, i to the boogedy bang—bang... # now what you hear is not a test, i'm rappin' to the beat. _ # and me, the groove, i and my friends are gonna try to move your feet. that whole idea about sampling, scratching, that came

from all those early djs. at night time it became a place to have a party. it could be the basement of someone's house or it could be in the community centres, or for me, in the schoolyard. not having the resource of a club environment, creating your own dance hall, if you will. .. here we go. taking two records which had just a little small enough of a section to create this instrumental space and an opening for the mc, the rappers, and became a place for people to have an identity, to feel important and to know that they had a value and a worth in who they are. # the beat don't stop until the break of dawn. # singing on an' an' on an' on, on an' on. if it were not for songs like rapper�*s delight, i mean, not only would any of us be here,

but the impact that it has made on companies like meta and tiktok is all because of those records, and how hip—hop has set ablaze across the world. # don't push me because i'm close to the edge. # i'm trying not to lose my head. # it's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how i keep from going under. talk to me about grandmaster flash, the message — that whole idea of storytelling and, again, giving young black americans, not only black americans, a voice, a different voice? it is still an important record. anyone growing up in the projects and the urban environments of new york city, you understood everything that he was saying. no one had ever made a record like that before. not from singing music. it was just completely something brand—new and real. it was one of the most realistic

hip—hop songs of that time. # all you've got to do now, express yourself. # i'm expressing with my full capabilities. # and now i'm living in correctional facilities. # �*cause some don't agree with how i do this. # i get straight and meditate like a buddhist. you were always very keen that there had to be a distinction between hip—hop and gangster rap. how concerned were you at the time, when some of the lyrics became incredibly aggressive, incredibly violent and were appropriated by other artists to this idea that that was the way forward, was to be so angry? and you didn't do that. i think for us at the time, when we were making our music, we would hear songs from the geto boys or from nwa, i think that there is some sort of idea that we didn't understand that music and it didn't

necessarily mix with us, which is the contrary. we actually were huge fans of nwa and the geto boys. we saw them as, like, cousins who had a different way of expressing themselves. i mean, nwa's music is as important as the music from public enemy. in fact, public enemy also was non—violent but it was very forceful. # fight the power. # we've got to fight the powers that be. you know, you got the message, you understood that this group was really trying to make change and tell us something and to evoke change. and i think nwa was also trying to evoke change in your environment, and what they were dealing with and living with the oppression of the los angeles police department. but the misogyny aspect of it, i can't say that this is anything to be proud of. thatjust has always been a part of the art form. you're talking about young black man

in america expressing themselves. # can i kick it? # yes, you can! tell me about can you kick it and the making of that. a walk on the wild side was a very popular song. and sampling it, it was a huge risk for us because it was such a popular song. but i think it allowed for us to speak to people who maybe were into hip—hop or maybe not so much the type of hip—hop that was going on from the early �*80s. and just q—tip and phife's kind of like back and forth flow was something, a simple question, can i kick it? did lou reed think it was fun?

it made him, it put a lot of money in his pocket so i'm sure! # can i kick it? # yes, you can! # can i take it? # yes, you can! misogyny has been a part of hip—hop for a very long time despite the fact that queen latifah and monie love, 1988, they said ladies first, but since then, women have struggled not simply as performers but as engineers, as producers, as djs. # oh, ladies first, ladies first. i am very happy that queen latifah and monie love released that song because that set the tone, i think, for women to be looked at differently. # don't you be calling me by my name. # i bring rap to those who disrespect me like a dame. when latifah released u.n.i.t.y, it was kind of reiterating what she had

established with ladies first i think that somebodyjust had to set the fire started and they started it. and sometimes it takes a while for change to take effect but if you really look at where hip—hop is now, the women dominate the industry. you know, when we talk about this male machismo, you know, women arejust as... ..beating their chest and braggadocio is and hard and creative. you know, like, lyrically, can go toe to toe with a lot of the male rappers. but do you think a lot of the hip—hop artists regret, in a way, the way that they disrespected women and their music for a while? the record companies have thrown this money at a younger generation, usually kids, and they feel that, i have to present myself in a certain way to continue to be supported by the