this is bbc news. we will have all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. what does it say about a society when its lawmakers prioritise ever tougher security laws and the authorities put bounties on the heads of political opponents in exile? that's something for the people of hong kong to reflect on as the territory's government follows beijing's lead in eliminating space for dissent. my guest is pro—beijing legislative council member dominic lee. with economic storm clouds gathering over china, are we about to see hong kong's political and economic dependence

on beijing painfully exposed? dominic lee in hong kong, welcome to hardtalk. thanks, stephen, for having me again. it's a great pleasure to have you back on the show. since we last spoke, it has become plain that the hong kong authorities are determined to push this article 23 reform of the basic law to create seven types of national security offence, and that will sit alongside and on top of the national security law passed in 2020.

what on earth are the hong kong authorities so scared of that they need to keep making ever tougher national security laws? you know what's interesting? that you ask this question. because in the uk, you guysjust passed a national security act, which is more extensive and restrictive than what we have in hong kong. it updates your previous espionage laws by adding offence of foreign interference and provides your law agency and intelligence agencies with new powers. so it's very interesting that you would, of anyone, you would ask me that question. well, now coming back to article 23, the responsibility to enact article 23 is actually enshrined in our basic law. so it aims to prohibit seven, seven, but not four types of offences. however, our national security law, as of now, only covers four types of those offence, and therefore article 23 is needed to fill those gaps,

prohibiting offences like theft of state secrets, foreign bodies conducting political activities — among other offences. so that is the reason why the enactment of article 23 is needed. yeah. well, on your point about the uk, you can say what you like about the uk. do not worry, we question uk politicians about the legislation they pass in the uk, so don't worry about that. let us stick with what's happening in hong kong. i just looked at the figures. 236 people were arrested on national security grounds last year with a conviction rate of 100%. it seems that's not enough for you. well, i think we have to look at the nature of the crimes or of the offence that's being committed. we have... the thing about hong kong is that we have an independentjudiciary. so everyone that has committed an offence is going through a trial that's going to be fair.

according to the rule of law index in 2022 by the world justice project, hong kong is ranked 22nd out of 140 jurisdictions in terms of rule of law, followed by spain at 23rd and the us at 26. so we have an independent judiciary that is well recognised around the world. so any prosecuted individuals are going to go through a fair trial. so if they in fact did commit a crime that is in regards to national security, they should be prosecuted. right, just a couple of points on that. obviously, the 2020 national security law was initiated in beijing, not in hong kong. you know that as well as i do. it also makes it much easier to extradite hong kong citizens into china. you know that, too. but leave that aside. i'm just interested in the mindset here. alice mak, obviously another well—known pro—beijing politician in hong kong, she said last year, "if hong kong is a police state, why not? "i don't think there's any problem with a police state." do you agree? you asked me exactly the same

question in our last interview. exactly. but my point is that since then, you've supported this expansion of the article 23 of the basic law with, as you've just said, seven new offences. ijust wonder, this idea of hong kong becoming a police state, do you now embrace it? i think hong kong has always been a city where rule of law is being manifested, as i've already cited. and so if anybody has broken the law, then they will be subject to a fair trial and if they are found guilty, they would be prosecuted. and that's just the legal process, although i find it interesting that you would use a word like police state or something like that just because. .. as you know, they weren't my words. as you pointed out, we've discussed this before. they were alice mak�*s words. someone was asking her the question, and she was like... and she was just answering to that question. so that was obviously the wording that was used by the person that's asking her the question. the fact that we have a chief executive with a police background doesn't make us a police state, right? just like we previously

have a chief executive coming from business background, from civil service background, that that doesn't make us a business state or a civil service state. i think those use of terminology, i wouldn't use it myself. terminology is important. let's move on to the bounty that has been put on the head of eight activists who are in exile no longer on the territory of hong kong. the bounty amounts to, what, about 1,000,000 hkd each? that's well over 100,000 usd. the hong kong chief executive — boss, really, of the authorities in hong kong —john lee, he said that these eight were "going to be pursued to the ends of the earth. "people should avoid them like street rats." do you think that sort of terminology best represents the mindset of those in power in hong kong? well, in common law, anyone that has violated an indictable criminal offence is going to be pursued for life.

sure. do you see people like nathan law as street rats? i think he should be pursued for life... do you see him as a street rat, mr lee? do you see the activists, the pro—democracy activists who have been forced to leave hong kong, as nothing more than street rats? i think what he'd done... the thing about, like, what nathan law did is against the law, in my view, 0k? if he takes the responsibility, he comes back to hong kong and go for a fair trial, then i would respect his honesty. but the thing is, right now, he has absconded hong kong and decided to not go through this fair trial. and i think that reflects on the ethnic performance of him. yeah, i guess everybody will notice that you've failed to answer my question about the use of terminology, the dehumanising... well, 0k, back to the use of terminology, actually, you used the word bounty, right? but i disagree the fact that it's a bounty. just like any law enforcement agencies around the world, the hong kong police can...give

rewards for intelligence received, and the amount payable actually depends on the value of the intelligence. and the arrest warrants were also backed by a court order. so this practice is no different from any other common lawjurisdiction... with respect, mr lee, you're still not addressing my basic question. to use a phrase like street rats, it is clearly dehumanising. it is, in a sense, portraying these activists, the pro—democracy activists in hong kong, as less than human. do you agree with that or not? well, if nathan law is a responsible individual, then i think nathan law should come back to hong kong and go through a fair trial... ok, so you won't answer my question... ..and let the court decide whether or not he has committed the crime that he's being right now accused of. you won't answer my question, fair enough. let me ask a different question, and that's about going after the families of people like nathan law. we had him on hardtalk just a few days ago. he explained how,

shortly after this — i'm using the word — bounty was put on his head, the authorities visited his family in hong kong. it was clearly intimidatory. according to samuel bickett, a respected us—based fellow at georgetown�*s center for asian law, "clearly, the hong kong authorities are sending "a message to activists and potential activists abroad "that if you stand up to the hong kong government, "they are going to go after your family." you approve of that? well, that's not true. because it's important to note that, according to the hong kong legal system, which is the common law system, no—one is going to be held accountable for criminal offences that another person has committed, even if that person committing the offence is a family member or a friend. so they're only going to be prosecuted if they have committed an offence or have aided and abetted an offence themselves. so this practice is a common law practice and that is exactly the same as any other

common lawjurisdiction. if they haven't breaked the law themselves, then there's absolutely nothing to worry about. the effect of the different forms of pressure that i've described that the hong kong authorities are putting on pro—democracy activists, the effect seems to be that in the western world, at least, the perception is that beijing is driving this new level of crackdown. to quote the uk foreign secretary, james cleverly, he said, "the arrest warrants issued of late "are just another example of the authoritarian reach "of china's extraterritorial law." there, he's talking about your efforts to bring home these wanted dissidents. is it all about what beijing is pressuring you to do? that is absolutely not true, because if you take a look at the arrest warrants, it's issued by... it's backed by a court order that's in hong kong. second of all, it's being executed by the enforcement agency,

the police force of hong kong. so there's no beijing's involvement in it. as far as the extraterritorial powers go, it is not actually something new or unique to hong kong. in recent years, there were a lot of instances where western countries would use extraterritorial power against a target. one example would involve the founder of wikileaks, australian activist julian assange. he was wanted in the us for allegedly violating their espionage act and he's in belmarsh prison for more than four years now. and another example will be from our country, meng wanzhou. she's the senior management of the tech company huawei. she was arrested in canada for allegedly circumventing us sanctions against iran. so she was held in home custody for over... for almost three years. so those are only two of the many examples. so why is it ok when the same thing is being applied by western countries but not ok when it comes to hong kong?

you were supposed to come to the united kingdom, i think, earlier this year, to a seminar on effective parliaments that was organised by the commonwealth parliamentary association. you were suddenly disinvited. why do you think so many parliamentarians and others in the western world look at people like you right now and think that you represent nothing more than an apology for authoritarianism? ithink... well, the conference was being held, organised by the cpa, the commonwealth parliamentary association, and i think what they did was, like, a child play. well, the invitation was sent to the legislative council in november last year and they rescinded the invitation in february this year. so within that three—month period, they cited the reason for rescinding that invitation for "deteriorating situation" and a serious erosion of political plurality

and participation in hong kong. so during that period of time, there were no change in our political system. the participation in our legislative body is still diverse. 0ur rule of law is intact. so the accusations about the so—called "deteriorating situation" is simply unfound. and also what's interesting is another one of their seminar�*s objectives, according to them, is for delegates to share knowledge and good practice with other legislatures. if the cpa indeed thinks that the situation has got so bad, like, in hong kong, why don't they take this opportunity to learn more through our participation? if they find it, like, you know, not good, then they can start criticising them. western politicians, well, they have always stressed the importance of listening to the people of hong kong. well, being a directly elected official myself, i have received north of 60,000 votes in our last election. even if i cannot represent everyone in hong kong, i can at least represent a good

number of them. so why are they refusing to listen to our side of the story? interesting you talk about elections and your status as an elected politician. of course, that was in 2021. in 2019, you lost. and the difference between 2019 and 2021 is that pro—democracy activists were actually allowed to run in 2019 and weren't allowed to run in 2021. so maybe that says something. and, really... you know what, stephen? but i was also elected in 2015. yeah, you were. and my point is that in a democracy... crosstalk. ..in a democracy, people who get elected then lose office, but that no longer seems to be possible in hong kong. i'm saying that as an elected representative, i have received more than 60,000 votes in the last election. i'm well aware of that. my point is simply that in the last election, you had to pass a loyalty test before you were allowed to stand, and all of the pro—democracy campaigners simply were not allowed to stand. you know that as well as i do.

let's get to the numbers... crosstalk. let's get to the numbers of people who are leaving hong kong. it looks, according to the statistics from the hong kong census office, that hundreds of thousands of hong kongers have chosen over the last three years to quit hong kong, including 60,000 last year alone. why, mr lee, do you think so many hong kongers now want to get the heck out of hong kong? if people would like to leave hong kong, they are free to leave. it's good for them because the freedom to emigrate to other country is actually a right that's being protected by article 31 of our basic law. however, you know, the total number of people who have emigrated is far less than the 500,000 people that the british government speculated when they initiated the bno visa programme. and a lot of these people who have left hong kong are now regretting it and coming back to hong kong. just a few days ago, the hong kong census and statistics department actually announced... ..the mid—year population figures,

and for the first time in three years, our population has actually stopped declining and started to increase again. do you think... the number rose for 152,000 people and that's a 2% increase. and what's more interesting, it's among this 152,000 people, actually, 143,000 of them are people who have previously emigrated abroad and are now returning to hong kong. so it comes to show you that, like, you know, even though western countries have been constantly making different accusations about hong kong, about china and offering various so—called "lifeboat programmes," hong kong remain a very attractive place to live in for both locals and expatriates. you're clearly a glass—half—full kind of guy, but the attraction of hong kong to many people... they're going to come back, stephen. they're going to come back. yeah... i don't know if you can be sure about that. if you look at the reality

of hong kong's economy, for example, hong kong's economy right now is looking rather shaky, not least because you're so deeply woven into the chinese economy now. storm clouds are gathering, as i'm sure you would agree, over the chinese economy, and that's clearly already having an effect in hong kong, where, as i look at it, stocks in the territory have fallen roughly 20% from their high near the start of the year. there is a sense in which hong kong's basic prosperity is now being questioned. well, i mean, politicians and the media can say what they want, but the reality is that the gdp of hong kong is predicted to rise by 4—5% in 2023. and we have also seen a record attendance in some of the few recent exhibitions that we have had in hong kong, like the food expo, the 3.0 expo. just in the first half of this year, we had over 13 million visitors coming to hong kong, and that is already 60%... it's way down still on the pre—covid numbers.

let me finish... hang on, hang on. you're very good at giving me your spin. i just want to give you some straight facts. sure. the economist magazine, which i'm sure you respect, the economist magazine points this out — "in 1997, the year of the hong kong handover, "singapore and hong kong had remarkably similar gdps. "today, singapore's is 1.7 times higher than hong kong. "singapore's economy has grown by a seventh since 2017. "hong kong's, not at all." that's the economist magazine suggesting you've got a problem. thank you, stephen. that's exactly why we have revamped our... ..electoral system, because in the past 20 years, we have been... 0ur electoral was not functioning. it was basically full of excessive filibusters, violence and nothing get done. and that is why we revamped

our electoral system, so we can move our economy forward. and i think those numbers that ijust cited you is a good testament that we are actually starting to move forward. 0ur unemployment rate is 3% and inflation rate was under 2% compared with your country. 0k? your country has an unemployment rate of 4.2%. as far as inflation rate goes, between september last year to march this year, you guys went through seven months of double digit inflation, making different people from different industry coming out to protest and even go on strikes. so i think hong kong is doing very well, and with the revamped system, with our new government, i'm very confident that we are showing strong signs of recovery after the pandemic. i appreciate the degree of detail you give me about what's happening in the uk. i am really keen to keep you focused on what's happening in hong kong. i'm sure you saw the recent big financial times spread on the thinking of international corporate leaders in hong kong about their continued presence in the territory. they had very interesting quotes

for it, and it's significant that they didn't want to be named, but nonetheless it's the ft so i think we can trust them. a senior corporate lawyer at an international firm saying, "hong kong has transitioned very quickly "from being an international "to a china—focused financial centre." i come back to the point. with china now facing really significant economic and financial difficulties, that's bad news for hong kong. well, first of all, those... the quotation that you just cited are just opinions of certain people. as far as china's economy go, it's not... it's definitely, for sure, not without its challenges because of all this geopolitical situation out there. but overall speaking, i believe that it's doing 0k. china's gdp actually grew by 8.45% in 2021 because it was....relatively not hit as hard with the pandemic. and it was at 2.9% last year. and recently, since they lifted the travel restriction,

i have been travelling to a lot of mainland cities and i see businesses and restaurants doing extremely well. the streets are packed, people are spending money. so don't believe everything that the media, even though it's the financial times, is telling you. come to china and come see for yourself. i want to end by asking you a question i asked you last time we spoke, which is more than a year ago. but i don't think you gave me a straight answer and i would appreciate one this time. let me begin byjust asking, are you a practising catholic? that's right. you are? so i just wonder how worried you are about the significant evidence of repression of, persecution of catholics inside china. i don't know where you got this information from, but according...

well, i can tell you. would you like me to tell you? sure, yeah. ok, for example, the ngo chinaaid has catalogued various different cases in which chinese catholics, including bishops, have run into profound problems with the chinese authorities. bishop dong baolu refused to join the state—run patriotic church system. his own church in hebei province was then demolished by party officials. there's another bishop in china, joseph zhang weizhu, he is missing, been missing since 2021. i'm sure you're aware of these cases. well, as a practising catholic, i can tell you the real situation in china is that...many different religions are being encouraged in china, including catholic. and there's an increasing number of practising catholic in china today. and with that, there is an enhancement of the relationship between china and vatican,

and that's very clear. so, obviously, vatican wants to have more involvement in the religious development in china and they are working together to make that happen. and the number of catholic, i know it's going up, but i didn't do the research to know exactly how much it went up, but we have seen more churches in china than ever before... right, so when bishop zen, the venerable 90—year—old retired bishop of hong kong, when he says, "we are now at the bottom of the pit, "there is no freedom of expression any more, "we are becoming like any other city or territory in china," bishop zen is entirely wrong, is he? despite the fact he's a fellow catholic, he's got it all wrong. i'm guilty of not going to church every single sunday. but i do go to church every now and then. i can tell you what, erm, you know, bishops and fathers are free to speak whatever they want within the church of hong kong. and nobody is criticising or anything like that. and within the church,

and i see a lot of people who have previously attend church continue to go to church, and catholic churches are doing extremely well in hong kong. so i don't understand where the sentiment is coming from. just come to hong kong, go to a church, see it for yourself. you know, i go there every now and then. all right. we are sadly out of time, dominic lee, but i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. no problem. thanks, stephen. hello. well, it has been quite warm in the last few days, but nothing compared to what's been happening south of the english channel in france and spain.

temperatures recently hit 44 celsius. and for france, a record for august. this is the anomaly map, so the orange colours show temperatures higher than average, the blue colours lower than average. but watch what happens when that jet stream takes a dip. this trough develops and pushes the heat further towards the east of europe, and the temperatures tend to ease somewhat anyway. and we have cooler weather on the way over the next few days for our neck of the woods. in fact, right now, you can see the jet streams right over us, clouds circling, an area of low pressure bringing some showers. there could be some thunderstorms early in the morning. but with low pressure in charge and these northerly winds riding around this western flank of the low, the temperatures are set to drop by a few degrees by the time we get to friday and certainly the weekend. so the outlook is things turning a little bit cooler, but there'll be some sunshine around with occasional showers. here's the forecast then for early thursday, some rain

there across northern and eastern scotland, showers elsewhere and also eyes towards the south, thunderstorms could be breaking out early in the morning as well. but it's a very mild start to the day, 12 celsius in glasgow, possibly even 17 celsius on the south coast. now on these thunderstorms, really vicious storms for a time, potentially across the channel islands, crossing the channel, heading roughly to the isle of wight, and then affecting the east, the south east that is, of england. we do think that they will probably veer off towards the east—northeast, so missing most of the south east of england. and i think anyway, for many of us through the course of thursday, it is going to be a mixture of sunny spells and showers. so most of us will not get the storms on thursday. temperatures, 17 celsius in glasgow, about 18 celsius in liverpool. still holding onto some of that warmth there in the southeast, 2a celsius. and then on friday, if you look at the wind arrows, here's the clue, the air�*s coming in from the north. sunny spells and showers, those temperatures around 16—17

celsius in scotland. in the south, 19—21 celsius, and i think we'll lose some of that humidity, so it won't feel quite as warm. and here is the outlook through the weekend and into next week — cooler. bye— bye.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm monica miller. the headlines... yevgeny prigozhin — head of russia's wagner mercenary group — is confirmed to have been on board a plane that crashed, killing all those on board. i don't know what's happened but i'm not surprised. it's two months since prigozhin challenged president putin, with a short—lived mutiny against the regime in moscow. we'll have full analysis. trump ally rudy guiliani is arrested and then bailed over alleged election interference. it comes as republican presidential candidates face off for the first televised debate. and despite regional opposition, japan prepares to release treated radioactive water from the fukushima nuclear plant into the pacific ocean.