tv Newsnight BBC News August 31, 2023 10:30pm-11:11pm BST
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just a week away from the new school term for most state schools in england, the government has said more than 100 of them will have shut some buildings immediately because of the danger of crumbling concrete. why so last—minute? the department of education said today, "this may come as a shock and is likely to cause disruption." that sounds like a lesson in stating the obvious. we'll be speaking to an expert about the danger
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of aereated concrete panels, the shadow education secretary and a headteacher. also tonight: today was the deadline for afghans on the government's resettlement scheme to leave hotel accomodation in the uk. we've spoken to some who are still there. a former mp has objected to being named by an academic as the descendant of a slaving family. joining us are two experts in slavery — the academic in question and a historian from oxford university. and the prime minister plans to criminalise possession of nitrous oxide — otherwise known as laughing gas — by the end of the year, despite protestions from members of the medical profession and some parents. criminalising it isjust going to push it underground. we're going to have lots of children with criminal records. we're asking the police to police something that's just too big, that they're not going to be able to do. they need to target the source. good evening. a number of state schools in england are facing the immediate closure of some buildings, just
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a week before many of them are due to begin the new school year. the government has told more than 100 schools to shut down buildings and classrooms which are part of their estates, and which are at risk of collapse, because they are constructed with a type of concrete which deteriorates over time and could crumble without warning. a national audit office report injune found that 700,000 children in england are attending schools that need major repairs, and that 2a,000 school buildings are now beyond their estimated initial design life. if you've been affected, please send us your comments via whatsapp, as we'll be discussing this shortly. first, here's joe. this story starts in the 19505, and continues into the �*60s, �*70s and �*80s, when a lot of public buildings — especially ones with flat roofs — were constructed with reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete, known as raac. the key word there is "aerated". it's very different from traditional concrete. the recipe for making it involves a chemical reaction, which means it ends up full of bubbles.
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some liken it to aero chocolate. and that structure is problematic if you then add water. if there is water migration into the slab itself from failed roof coverings or water ingress from pipework and so on which then reduces the alkaline environment within the concrete and then causes it to become acidic and that corrodes the steel and it cannot support itself. however, if the roof coverings are adequate and have been well maintained, it has been well maintained, the building, and there has been no water migration into the slabs themselves, there is no reason to say that the slabs cannot carry on in their current configuration. for another ten or 20 years. r331“: on in their current configuration. for another ten or 20 years. raac is still used worldwide, _ for another ten or 20 years. raac is still used worldwide, but _ for another ten or 20 years. raac is still used worldwide, but problems | still used worldwide, but problems with older panels have been known
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about since the 1990s. they can suddenly catastrophically failed, with very little warning. in 2018, that happened at a school in kent and there have been concerning examples ever since notjust in schools, but also hospitals. what schools, but also hospitals. what the are schools, but also hospitals. what they are faced — schools, but also hospitals. what they are faced with _ schools, but also hospitals. what they are faced with on _ schools, but also hospitals. what they are faced with on a - schools, but also hospitals. what they are faced with on a regular basis _ they are faced with on a regular basis is — they are faced with on a regular basis is seeing signs up on the walls — basis is seeing signs up on the walls and _ basis is seeing signs up on the walls and the lifts that say that if you see — walls and the lifts that say that if you see a — walls and the lifts that say that if you see a new crack in the wall or ceiling _ you see a new crack in the wall or ceiling or— you see a new crack in the wall or ceiling or if— you see a new crack in the wall or ceiling or if you hear an unusual noise: _ ceiling or if you hear an unusual noise, report it because it could be a sign _ noise, report it because it could be a sign of— noise, report it because it could be a sign of raac failure. not only that, _ a sign of raac failure. not only that, but— a sign of raac failure. not only that, but they are having to manoeuvre and manipulate delivering health _ manoeuvre and manipulate delivering health care _ manoeuvre and manipulate delivering health care around metal and wooden props _ health care around metal and wooden pmpe and _ health care around metal and wooden props. and although our hospital is taking. _ props. and although our hospital is taking, doing the fail—safe work that is— taking, doing the fail—safe work that is needed, it doesn't get rid of the _ that is needed, it doesn't get rid of the props, it hides them. so when staff go— of the props, it hides them. so when staff go back into their ward after it has— staff go back into their ward after it has had — staff go back into their ward after it has had the essential fail—safe work_ it has had the essential fail—safe work done, there will be a suspended ceiling _ work done, there will be a suspended ceiling 50 _ work done, there will be a suspended ceilinu. ., .,, work done, there will be a suspended
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ceilinu. . , work done, there will be a suspended ceilinu. ., .,, , ., ,, ceiling. so what has been happening in recent years? _ ceiling. so what has been happening in recent years? in _ ceiling. so what has been happening in recent years? in late _ ceiling. so what has been happening in recent years? in late 2018, - ceiling. so what has been happening in recent years? in late 2018, the i in recent years? in late 2018, the local govern at association and the department for education contacted all schools with a warning about raac panels. in may 2019, the standing committee on structural safety recommended panels installed before 1980 were replaced. in december last year, the department for education's annual report says the risk of school buildings collapsing was critical, very likely. in march this year, state schools were invited to complete a survey about the prevalence of these panels. last month, the national audit of this revealed an estimated 700,000 pupils are learning in buildings which need major refurbishment or rebuilding. and 38% of england's 64,000 school buildings have now passed their estimated design life. and today, just before the start of the new school year, more than 100 schools in england have been told they must close some
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buildings because of safety fears. the government will not tell us which ones. there are multiple challenges including, of course, identifying those dangers panels. could you or i spot them? h0. identifying those dangers panels. could you or i spot them?- could you or i spot them? no, it would just _ could you or i spot them? no, it would just be — could you or i spot them? no, it would just be a _ could you or i spot them? no, it would just be a flat _ could you or i spot them? no, it would just be a flat concrete - would just be a flat concrete surface, you would just see linear panels running longitude or laterally across the ceiling. and most of these constructions will be covered by a suspended ceiling, a plaster finish to the ceiling, mechanical and electrical installations. unless you have adequate training as chartered surveyors do, there will be no tell—tale signs. surveyors do, there will be no tell-tale signs.— surveyors do, there will be no tell-tale signs. finally, fixing all of these problems _ tell-tale signs. finally, fixing all of these problems will _ tell-tale signs. finally, fixing all of these problems will not - tell-tale signs. finally, fixing all of these problems will not be i tell-tale signs. finally, fixing all- of these problems will not be cheap. in 2020, the department for education reported the best practice would be £7 billion a year in capitalfunding for would be £7 billion a year in capital funding for school buildings. they requested a lot less, 4 billion a year for 2021 to 2025, but the treasury allocated an average ofjust £3.1 billion a year.
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the national audit office argues that funding gap means the state of school buildings is deteriorating. that was joe. we bid for someone from the government, but they declined to come on. but in a statement, the education secretary gillian keegan said, "nothing is more important than making sure children and staff are safe in schools and colleges, which is why we are acting on new evidence about raac now, ahead of the start of term. the plan we have set out will minimise the impact on pupil learning and provide schools with the right funding." iam nowjoined by professor chris goodier — award—winning expert in construction engineering and materials, nigel attwood — headteacher at bellfield junior school, and shadow secretary of state for education bridget phillipson. good evening, gillian keegan said the most important thing is the safety of staff and children, we have new evidence and we are acting now, has she done the right thing? the safety of children has to come first absolutely, but this has been scandalous incompetence on the part of the government. we saw on the
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timeline that ministers have known for a very long time, for years, there were major problems with in our schools are state and failed to act. to get to this very last—minute decision just as term is about to start and especially given the disruption children have experienced during the pandemic, the industrial action that ministers should have avoided, it is outrageous that our children have been an afterthought for so many years and education has not been a big priority for this government. is not been a big priority for this government-— not been a big priority for this government. not been a big priority for this covernment. , , , ., government. is this something you have raised — government. is this something you have raised in _ government. is this something you have raised in the _ government. is this something you have raised in the commons? - have raised in the commons? especially, i have been raising this for months now with ministers including any debate we held in the commons. i have been pressing ministers for answers both on the initial condition survey which they finally published injuly and more recently. even today, we haven't seen the full list of schools affected, we do not know where they are, ministers should come clean with parent and set out the full—scale of the challenge we are facing. it full-scale of the challenge we are facina. , , ., “ full-scale of the challenge we are facina. , , ~ ~~ facing. it seems like raac can ha en facing. it seems like raac can happen like — facing. it seems like raac can happen like that. _ facing. it seems like raac can happen like that. have - facing. it seems like raac can happen like that. have you - facing. it seems like raac can - happen like that. have you concerns about children going back to school
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and the school is not necessarily in this 100? i and the school is not necessarily in this 100? ., _, . ., ., this 100? i am concerned about what we are seeing _ this 100? i am concerned about what we are seeing because _ this 100? i am concerned about what we are seeing because as _ this 100? i am concerned about what we are seeing because as you - this 100? i am concerned about what we are seeing because as you just i we are seeing because as you just heard, a school faced serious collapse in 2018. mercifully, that was over a weekend. i am concerned about the risk to children and staff. it about the risk to children and staff. , ., . , about the risk to children and staff. , ., ., , ., ., staff. it is totally inadequate. the government _ staff. it is totally inadequate. the government is _ staff. it is totally inadequate. the government is talking _ staff. it is totally inadequate. the government is talking about - staff. it is totally inadequate. the government is talking about the l government is talking about the optimum amount per year to deal with this being a £7 billion, would an incoming labour government produce that kind of figure to make this go away? we that kind of figure to make this go awa ? ~ ., , , ., away? we need to first understand the full-scale _ away? we need to first understand the full-scale of— away? we need to first understand the full-scale of what _ away? we need to first understand the full-scale of what we _ away? we need to first understand the full-scale of what we are - the full—scale of what we are facing, we don't currently know. this feels very reminiscent of what the incoming labour government in 1997 faced and if we are so fortunate that the british people put their trust in us at the next general election, we will face as we did then and now crumbling buildings. haste did then and now crumbling buildings-— did then and now crumbling building, . . . ., . . buildings. we are about to have an exert buildings. we are about to have an exoert that — buildings. we are about to have an exoert that says — buildings. we are about to have an expert that says some _ buildings. we are about to have an expert that says some school - expert that says some school buildings, 1,000 or millions, the government wanted 7 billion a year,
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would it be in the order of that. would itjust be the 3.1 billion or more? would it 'ust be the 3.1 billion or more? ., , would it 'ust be the 3.1 billion or more? ., ., ,., ., more? the last labour government had a serious programme _ more? the last labour government had a serious programme to _ more? the last labour government had a serious programme to rebuild - more? the last labour government had a serious programme to rebuild and - a serious programme to rebuild and refurbish schools across england. 0ne refurbish schools across england. one of the first things the incoming conservative government did in 2010 was to cancel that programme for building schools for the future and they never put in place a national plan to replace it. if we just constantly have the sticking plasters and the government now have to commit to spending more money on portakabins, temporary accommodation, all of which has an impact on the learning of children because they are just not planning for the long—term. we have had 13 years of a consistent failure. you have had 13 _ years of a consistent failure. you have had 13 years _ years of a consistent failure. you have had 13 years to _ years of a consistent failure. you have had 13 years to prepare for possible government. give me concrete that you would do in the first days of an incoming labour government to deal with this much more quickly than what we are seeing. more quickly than what we are seeina. �* , ., more quickly than what we are seeina. �*, ., ., , more quickly than what we are seeina. �*, . ., , ., ., seeing. there's an awful lot an incoming _ seeing. there's an awful lot an incoming labour _ seeing. there's an awful lot an incoming labour government l seeing. there's an awful lot an i incoming labour government will seeing. there's an awful lot an - incoming labour government will need to do. but children are the priority. absolutely, if i was secretary of the state for education, i can absolutely tell you
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i would not have allowed 13 years to drift along without a proper plan. we need to publish the data first and i expect ministers next week in the house of commons to publish that data. tell parents and tell the public exactly where the problems are. unless we have that, the conversation about how we spend money is not a realistic one. so you would name — money is not a realistic one. so you would name every _ money is not a realistic one. so you would name every school. - money is not a realistic one. so you i would name every school. absolutely, we should know _ would name every school. absolutely, we should know where _ would name every school. absolutely, we should know where problems - would name every school. absolutely, we should know where problems are. | we should know where problems are. let me turn to professor chris goodier, we are talking about a specific big building programme from the 19505 to the 19705 in public buildings, not only school5 the 19505 to the 19705 in public buildings, not only schools of building5, not only schools of course, but ho5pitals. how critical i5 course, but ho5pitals. how critical is it do you think that this is actually addressed immediately, because we are coming to the end of the life of this concrete? i the life of this concrete? i think the life of this concrete? i think the immediate _ the life of this concrete? i think the immediate kin _ the life of this concrete? i think the immediate kin -- _ the life of this concrete? i think the immediate kin -- the - the life of this concrete? i think- the immediate kin -- the immediate the immediate kin —— the immediate concern _ the immediate kin —— the immediate concern is _ the immediate kin —— the immediate concern is the schools opening, hence _ concern is the schools opening, hence the — concern is the schools opening, hence the decision this week. as you say, these _ hence the decision this week. as you say, these buildings have stood for around _ say, these buildings have stood for around 50 — say, these buildings have stood for around 50 years. and there has been
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around 50 years. and there has been a small— around 50 years. and there has been a small number of problems. you mentioned — a small number of problems. you mentioned health and schools, but a lane mentioned health and schools, but a large part— mentioned health and schools, but a large part of the public sector and a large _ large part of the public sector and a large part of the private sector, many— a large part of the private sector, many industrial buildings that look from the _ many industrial buildings that look from the 19605, 19705. and the vast majority_ from the 19605, 19705. and the vast majority have stood there perfectly safely _ majority have stood there perfectly safely and they will do for many decades— safely and they will do for many decades to come. but what has changed — decades to come. but what has changed is that based on research from _ changed is that based on research from loughborough university in the last couple _ from loughborough university in the last couple of years and word by the institution _ last couple of years and word by the institution of engineers, we have a much _ institution of engineers, we have a much better understanding of some of the difficulties of this and how its performance is different to concrete. so over the summer, this market— concrete. so over the summer, this market -- _ concrete. so over the summer, this market -- this _ concrete. so over the summer, this market —— this knowledge has rapidly matured _ market —— this knowledge has rapidly matured and the government has taken that on. _ matured and the government has taken that on, including the department for education, and that is informing the decisions being made very recently — the decisions being made very recently. so our knowledge of the material _ recently. so our knowledge of the material has increased drastically over the — material has increased drastically over the last few weeks. even amon . st over the last few weeks. even amongst the _ over the last few weeks. even amongst the last _ over the last few weeks. even amongst the last few - over the last few weeks. even amongst the last few weeks, | over the last few weeks. every amongst the last few weeks, but is it right to say there could be a
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catastrophic failure in an instant and you just don't know? i catastrophic failure in an instant and you just don't know? and you 'ust don't know? i would add there and you just don't know? i would add there could be _ and you just don't know? i would add there could be a _ and you just don't know? i would add there could be a catastrophic- there could be a catastrophic failure — there could be a catastrophic failure of— there could be a catastrophic failure of any type of building without — failure of any type of building without failure. if you look at america. _ without failure. if you look at america, some skyscrapers fell down and bridges _ america, some skyscrapers fell down and bridges have collapsed in america — and bridges have collapsed in america and italy. we and bridges have collapsed in america and italy.— and bridges have collapsed in america and italy. and bridges have collapsed in america and ital . ~ ~ ., america and italy. we know the next 24,000 buildings _ america and italy. we know the next 24,000 buildings that _ america and italy. we know the next 24,000 buildings that have - america and italy. we know the next 24,000 buildings that have raac- america and italy. we know the next| 24,000 buildings that have raac and raac has deteriorated, socially that is the priority?— is the priority? yes, but other buildin: is the priority? yes, but other building materials _ is the priority? yes, but other building materials are - is the priority? yes, but other building materials are also - building materials are also deteriorating. timber, traditional concrete — deteriorating. timber, traditional concrete and steel, many buildings, this is— concrete and steel, many buildings, this is one _ concrete and steel, many buildings, this is one form of building material— this is one form of building material that is a problem. we were not aware _ material that is a problem. we were not aware of— material that is a problem. we were not aware of that for a couple of years. _ not aware of that for a couple of years. but — not aware of that for a couple of years, but we are now and we are catching _ years, but we are now and we are catching up — years, but we are now and we are catching up on this form of building _ catching up on this form of buildinu. catching up on this form of building-— catching up on this form of buildinu. , ., ., building. let me put that to nigel attwood, building. let me put that to nigel attwood. you _ building. let me put that to nigel attwood, you are _ building. let me put that to nigel attwood, you are head _ building. let me put that to nigel attwood, you are head teacher. building. let me put that to nigel. attwood, you are head teacher and thankfully at the moment, i think your school is free of this particular problem, but you have been 5peaking particular problem, but you have been speaking to head teachers tonight and i wonder what impact it is going to have on children coming back from the school year in state schools in england?—
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schools in england? well, it is a concern that _ schools in england? well, it is a concern that they _ schools in england? well, it is a concern that they have - schools in england? well, it is a concern that they have known i schools in england? well, it is a - concern that they have known about the possibility— concern that they have known about the possibility of— concern that they have known about the possibility of this _ concern that they have known about the possibility of this for _ concern that they have known about the possibility of this for five - the possibility of this for five years — the possibility of this for five years. obviously, _ the possibility of this for five years. obviously, we - the possibility of this for five years. obviously, we have i the possibility of this for five - years. obviously, we have heard new information— years. obviously, we have heard new information has, _ years. obviously, we have heard new information has, over— years. obviously, we have heard new information has, over the _ years. obviously, we have heard new information has, over the last- years. obviously, we have heard new information has, over the last few. information has, over the last few weeks _ information has, over the last few weeks however. _ information has, over the last few weeks. however, we _ information has, over the last few weeks. however, we have - information has, over the last few weeks. however, we have been. information has, over the last few- weeks. however, we have been asked about— weeks. however, we have been asked about this _ weeks. however, we have been asked about this since — weeks. however, we have been asked about this since march, _ weeks. however, we have been asked about this since march, we _ weeks. however, we have been asked about this since march, we had - about this since march, we had e-mails — about this since march, we had e-mails asking _ about this since march, we had e—mails asking for— about this since march, we had e—mails asking for informationl about this since march, we had - e—mails asking for information about whether— e—mails asking for information about whether schools _ e—mails asking for information about whether schools were _ e—mails asking for information about whether schools were built _ e—mails asking for information about whether schools were built with - e—mails asking for information about i whether schools were built with raac materials. _ whether schools were built with raac materials. how — whether schools were built with raac materials, how would _ whether schools were built with raac materials, how would we _ whether schools were built with raac materials, how would we know? - whether schools were built with raac materials, how would we know? we i whether schools were built with raac . materials, how would we know? we are head teachers _ materials, how would we know? we are head teachers and _ materials, how would we know? we are head teachers and principals. _ materials, how would we know? we are head teachers and principals. we - materials, how would we know? we are head teachers and principals. we are . head teachers and principals. we are not architects — head teachers and principals. we are not architects or— head teachers and principals. we are not architects or construction - not architects or construction specialists _ not architects or construction specialists. so _ not architects or construction specialists. so how— not architects or construction specialists. so how would - not architects or construction specialists. so how would wej not architects or construction - specialists. so how would we know we wouldn't _ specialists. so how would we know we wouldn't a _ specialists. so how would we know we wouldn't. a specialist _ specialists. so how would we know we wouldn't. a specialist earlier- specialists. so how would we know we wouldn't. a specialist earlier said - wouldn't. a specialist earlier said it would — wouldn't. a specialist earlier said it would he — wouldn't. a specialist earlier said it would be covered _ wouldn't. a specialist earlier said it would be covered by— wouldn't. a specialist earlier said | it would be covered by suspended ceilings _ it would be covered by suspended ceilings and — it would be covered by suspended ceilings and plaster, _ it would be covered by suspended ceilings and plaster, it _ it would be covered by suspended ceilings and plaster, it is - it would be covered by suspended ceilings and plaster, it is not - ceilings and plaster, it is not something _ ceilings and plaster, it is not something we _ ceilings and plaster, it is not something we would - ceilings and plaster, it is not something we would know. i the onu5 has been on individual schools to find out whether or not they have raac materials. are you expected to order surveys and pay for those within the school budget? we were asked whether or not we knew about this _ we were asked whether or not we knew about this and — we were asked whether or not we knew about this and we _ we were asked whether or not we knew about this and we had _ we were asked whether or not we knew about this and we had another - we were asked whether or not we knew about this and we had another major i about this and we had another major outlet— about this and we had another major outlet asking — about this and we had another major outlet asking for— about this and we had another major outlet asking for freedom _ about this and we had another major outlet asking for freedom of- outlet asking for freedom of information _ outlet asking for freedom of information requests - outlet asking for freedom of information requests to - outlet asking for freedom of. information requests to schools asking — information requests to schools asking if — information requests to schools asking if you _ information requests to schools
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asking if you have _ information requests to schools asking if you have raac- information requests to schools asking if you have raac a - information requests to schools asking if you have raac a few l information requests to schools - asking if you have raac a few months a-o. asking if you have raac a few months ago birmingham— asking if you have raac a few months ago. birmingham city— asking if you have raac a few months ago. birmingham city council- asking if you have raac a few months ago. birmingham city council were . ago. birmingham city council were excellent, — ago. birmingham city council were excellent, they— ago. birmingham city council were excellent, they dealt _ ago. birmingham city council were excellent, they dealt with - ago. birmingham city council were excellent, they dealt with that - excellent, they dealt with that and have been looking _ excellent, they dealt with that and have been looking into _ excellent, they dealt with that and have been looking into it for- excellent, they dealt with that and have been looking into it for us - excellent, they dealt with that and | have been looking into it for us but initially— have been looking into it for us but initially it _ have been looking into it for us but initially it came _ have been looking into it for us but initially it came to _ have been looking into it for us but initially it came to us _ have been looking into it for us but initially it came to us from - have been looking into it for us but initially it came to us from the - initially it came to us from the dfa and we _ initially it came to us from the dfa and we were — initially it came to us from the dfa and we were getting _ initially it came to us from the dfa and we were getting the _ initially it came to us from the dfa and we were getting the media - and we were getting the media attention— and we were getting the media attention asking _ and we were getting the media attention asking us _ and we were getting the media attention asking us whether . and we were getting the media| attention asking us whether we and we were getting the media - attention asking us whether we had this or— attention asking us whether we had this or not — attention asking us whether we had this or not and _ attention asking us whether we had this or not and we _ attention asking us whether we had this or not and we are _ attention asking us whether we had this or not and we are not- attention asking us whether we had this or not and we are not experts i this or not and we are not experts and we _ this or not and we are not experts and we do — this or not and we are not experts and we do not _ this or not and we are not experts and we do not know. _ this or not and we are not experts and we do not know. we - this or not and we are not experts and we do not know. we find - this or not and we are not experts and we do not know. we find outi this or not and we are not experts i and we do not know. we find out we did not— and we do not know. we find out we did not have — and we do not know. we find out we did not have raac— and we do not know. we find out we did not have raac but— and we do not know. we find out we did not have raac but finding - and we do not know. we find out we did not have raac but finding out i did not have raac but finding out two business _ did not have raac but finding out two business days _ did not have raac but finding out two business days before - did not have raac but finding out two business days before going. did not have raac but finding out i two business days before going back to school, _ two business days before going back to school, 156 — two business days before going back to school, 156 schools _ two business days before going back to school, 156 schools will _ two business days before going back to school, 156 schools will not - two business days before going back to school, 156 schools will not be - to school, 156 schools will not be able to _ to school, 156 schools will not be able to open, _ to school, 156 schools will not be able to open, and _ to school, 156 schools will not be able to open, and there - to school, 156 schools will not be able to open, and there is - to school, 156 schools will not be able to open, and there is the . able to open, and there is the possibility— able to open, and there is the possibility of more. _ able to open, and there is the possibility of more. i - able to open, and there is the - possibility of more. i have become aware _ possibility of more. i have become aware of— possibility of more. i have become aware of one — possibility of more. i have become aware of one school— possibility of more. i have become aware of one school in _ possibility of more. i have become. aware of one school in birmingham, possibility of more. i have become i aware of one school in birmingham, i had an— aware of one school in birmingham, i had an e-mail— aware of one school in birmingham, i had an e—mailthis_ aware of one school in birmingham, i had an e—mail this week— aware of one school in birmingham, i had an e—mail this week saying - aware of one school in birmingham, i had an e—mail this week saying you l had an e—mail this week saying you might— had an e—mail this week saying you might have — had an e—mail this week saying you might have raac— had an e—mail this week saying you might have raac and _ had an e—mail this week saying you might have raac and we _ had an e—mail this week saying you might have raac and we need - had an e—mail this week saying you might have raac and we need to l had an e—mail this week saying you i might have raac and we need to do a survey— might have raac and we need to do a survey within — might have raac and we need to do a survey within the _ might have raac and we need to do a survey within the next six _ might have raac and we need to do a survey within the next six weeks. - might have raac and we need to do a survey within the next six weeks. it. survey within the next six weeks. it may survey within the next six weeks. may not be the end of the story. survey within the next six weeks.- may not be the end of the story. you say you know of 156 schools not open, is it not buildings within school5 open, is it not buildings within schools was mike willie try to get the children in or in some cases will that not be possible? this de ends. will that not be possible? this depends- l— will that not be possible? this depends. i have _ will that not be possible? this depends. i have served some school saying _ depends. i have served some school saying they — depends. i have served some school saying they will _ depends. i have served some school saying they will not _ depends. i have served some school saying they will not be _ depends. i have served some school saying they will not be open - depends. i have served some school saying they will not be open on - depends. i have served some schooli saying they will not be open on some will be _ saying they will not be open on some will be fully— saying they will not be open on some will be fully closed _ saying they will not be open on some
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will be fully closed and _ saying they will not be open on some will be fully closed and partly- will be fully closed and partly because _ will be fully closed and partly because it _ will be fully closed and partly because it might— will be fully closed and partly because it might be - will be fully closed and partly because it might be older- will be fully closed and partly- because it might be older buildings that have _ because it might be older buildings that have had — because it might be older buildings that have had extension— because it might be older buildings that have had extension work- because it might be older buildings that have had extension work done| that have had extension work done in the past _ that have had extension work done in the past but — that have had extension work done in the past but they— that have had extension work done in the past but they now _ that have had extension work done in the past but they now have _ that have had extension work done in the past but they now have raac - that have had extension work done in the past but they now have raac and some _ the past but they now have raac and some are _ the past but they now have raac and some are built— the past but they now have raac and some are built in— the past but they now have raac and some are built in the _ the past but they now have raac and some are built in the 60s, _ the past but they now have raac and some are built in the 60s, 70s - the past but they now have raac and some are built in the 60s, 70s and l some are built in the 60s, 70s and 805 some are built in the 60s, 70s and 80s from _ some are built in the 60s, 70s and 805 from scratch _ some are built in the 60s, 70s and 805 from scratch completely - some are built in the 60s, 70s and 805 from scratch completely of. some are built in the 60s, 70s and l 805 from scratch completely of raac so it will— 805 from scratch completely of raac so it will be _ 805 from scratch completely of raac so it will be a — 805 from scratch completely of raac so it will be a combination. _ so it will be a combination. particular— so it will be a combination. particular parts _ so it will be a combination. particular parts of - so it will be a combination. particular parts of schoolsl so it will be a combination. i particular parts of schools or complete _ particular parts of schools or complete schools, _ particular parts of schools or complete schools, we - particular parts of schools or complete schools, we are i particular parts of schools or - complete schools, we are unsure where _ complete schools, we are unsure where it — complete schools, we are unsure where it is, — complete schools, we are unsure where it is, for— complete schools, we are unsure where it is, for safety. _ complete schools, we are unsure where it is, for safety. which - complete schools, we are unsure where it is, for safety. which is l complete schools, we are unsure where it is, for safety. which is a priority. — where it is, for safety. which is a priority. safety _ where it is, for safety. which is a priority, safety. it— where it is, for safety. which is a priority, safety. it seems - priority, safety. it seems concerning _ priority, safety. it seems concerning it _ priority, safety. it seems concerning it has - priority, safety. it seems| concerning it has become priority, safety. it seems . concerning it has become a priority, safety. it seems - concerning it has become a rush priority, safety. it seems _ concerning it has become a rushjob two days— concerning it has become a rushjob two days before _ concerning it has become a rushjob two days before term _ concerning it has become a rushjob two days before term starts. - concerning it has become a rushjob two days before term starts. what i two days before term starts. what niel is two days before term starts. what nigel is saying _ two days before term starts. what nigel is saying is _ two days before term starts. what nigel is saying is being _ two days before term starts. nigel is saying is being asked to assess your own school, it can be covered with things, surely that is not the right way to go about this? i would always recommend it be expected —— in5pected i would always recommend it be expected —— inspected by a professional surveyor or a structural engineer because when you look at it, you can see the concrete and it looks like traditional concrete and it is often covered by other materials so it is hard to
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inspect but even a visual inspection is not enough. you need an intrusive one, you need to dig into the material and the corners of the rooms to get a proper understanding of structural behaviour. cami rooms to get a proper understanding of structural behaviour.— of structural behaviour. can i ask you briefly. _ of structural behaviour. can i ask you briefly. if — of structural behaviour. can i ask you briefly, if you were - of structural behaviour. can i ask you briefly, if you were a - of structural behaviour. can i ask you briefly, if you were a parent| you briefly, if you were a parent with a child going back to school in england, you would not really know, would you? i england, you would not really know, would ou? ., , ., , england, you would not really know, would ou? . , ~ , . ,, would you? i am, my kids went back toda to would you? i am, my kids went back today to the — would you? i am, my kids went back today to the primary _ would you? i am, my kids went back today to the primary school. - would you? i am, my kids went back today to the primary school. and . would you? i am, my kids went back today to the primary school. and i i today to the primary school. and i fully understand the feelings of parents. and the worry. but i would tell them that the dfa has gone for a very bold safety first announcement by not opening any school5 announcement by not opening any schools that they are remotely worried about until they are confident it is open so i would say you could turn other way around and say, it is a safe decision, although i totally agree that it is very di5ruptive for parents and teachers. thank you all very much indeed.
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new5night has covered the fate of afghan5 who worked for, or with, the uk government in afghanistan and then were evacuated here to safety under the government's arap scheme when the taliban returned to power. today was the government's self—imposed deadline for all the 24,600 in the scheme to have left so—called "bridging hotels" for more suitable accomodation. at the end of march, the veterans ministerjohnny mercer accepted there were still 8000 in hotels, and insisted that by today, there would be none. so where are we now? well, the government has told us they will have the figures new5night has covered the fate of afghan5 who worked for, or with, well, the government has told us they will have the figures in a few weeks' time, but new5night has learned that tonight, there are still afghan5 in the arap scheme in hotels across the uk. here's emir. two years since the taliban 5urged to power in afghanistan on the heels of our chaotic withdrawal, claiming city after city at lightning speed and scattering thousand5 underground and abroad.
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our afghan comrade5 — tru5ted tran5lator5 — chased out of their homeland, fearing repri5al. but while the taliban takeover that threw their lives into jeopardy wa5 sudden, a slow, uncertain limbo has gripped the lives of thousands of afghan5 since then. i was a translator, interpreter with the british army in afghanistan, the phq, police headquarters. three and a half years i have worked with them. bilal — not his real name — fears attacks on his family back home, but his safe haven here has been suffocating. it's very difficult for me. you know, its two years we are living in hotels, and the children, they can't go outside. it's like a prison for them in the room. but this month, all of this was supposed to change. this government remains committed to ending access to costly hotels at the end of the notice period that we have issued to afghan individuals and families. for some, this will be at the end of this month. everyone will be expected to have left bridging accommodation by the time
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their notice period expires. the minister for veterans, johnny mercer, set today as a deadline for all afghans to be moved out of so—called bridging hotels and into permanent homes. but what was supposed to bring regimented order has only brought more chaos, forcing hundreds of afghans into making homeless applications. that's why we did that, because everyone thought that the hotels would be finished. but then where would we like to go? because we signed and we did the homelessness assistance. how did it feel when you received the notice, that you heard you had to leave? it was too hard for us. the people say that you don't have a house, or blah blah blah, something like that, because we don't own these things here. johnny mercer said there is no reason why anyone should be left homeless, but the local government association have told us today that 22% — or one in five — afghans who have left bridging hotels this month have
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done so by presenting as homeless to their council. it was just 3% before august. a5 ofjune 23, there are over 6000 people, including children, still residing in hotel accommodation. we don't know what that figure is now. after 11 months in a manchester hotel, nasrullah has been told to spend another four there. you should stay in this hotel, end of december. we are staying in one room with my four children. and i request so many times with the home office to give me another room, but they are not telling me when we move into the house. it's not confirmed. not evicted, but the family's hotel food has ceased. after the 17th of august, everything is closed. no food. not breakfast.
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they're not giving us breakfast, dinner and lunch. ifind many houses in bolton and manchester city, but the landlord not accept us. now asked to also search for housing themselves, many afghans have found the british rental market unwelcoming. many do not have a guarantor. it's very difficult to find affordable rent. they have faced a lot of discrimination and haven't been able to secure private rented accommodation because they haven't been able to find landlords who are willing to rent to them. the government have told us that 11,000 afghan refugees have been moved out of hotels, and councils are receiving funds to help house them. but for the estimated 6000 remaining in temporary accommodation, the government's deadline today has brought confusion and distress to a life still suspended in limbo. new5night has been told by leading clinicians across health trusts in the uk that they are seeing
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a sharp increase in nitrous oxide patients under 25 with serious health issues. nitrous oxide is often known laughing gas, or nos, and the legalities around its use are complex, as it can be used for legitimate purposes such as in catering and in medical environments. it is currently placed within the psychoactive drug act 2016, which stipulates that it is illegal to supply the drug for recreational purposes, but possession is not illegal. however, the prime minister is committed to banning the substance as a class c drug by the end of the year, which will make possession a crime. now medical professionals have written to the policing minister, chris philp, saying that making possession of the drug illegal was "unlikely to translate to health benefits in our patients," and that "fear of arrest could increase harm," as people may delay coming to hospital at a time when their symptoms are treatable. yasminara khan has been speaking to one of the authors of the letter, professor noyce, and been to birmingham and chester to look at the effects nitrous oxide
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is having in communities there. canisters and silver bullets are becoming a familiar sight on british streets. what we're seeing is an emerging epidemic in young people. young people using nitrous oxide, but using nitrous oxide in such high quantities that they come to harm. the use of nitrous oxide — known as laughing gas or nos — is spreading in communities. my son was a really bright child and then he started taking nitrous oxide and, in a moment, everything just changed. here, in the inner—city suburbs in birmingham, the use of nitrous oxide is becoming a visible problem and is impacting communities both socially and health—wise. according to government figures, nitrous oxide is the third most used drug amongst young people. we've just been walking around the park and we're here now at the pond, and you can see one, two, three, four, five, six canisters.
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and on the floor as well, there's balloons that they use to attach to the canisters. i met the head of contextual safeguarding hub service at birmingham children's trust in small heath. i think it's happening because nitrous oxide is cheap. it's seen as a legal high. it's used socially, in particular, with young people that go out and party. they don't understand the long—term impact on their emotional and physical and mental wellbeing. we have a number of shops that are selling it to children under age. whether they know that intentionally or unintentionally, we know it's happening. whilst walking with clair, we were approached by young children who said you could get laughing gas easily. they've just told us where the shops are that are selling it. yep. they know what's going on in their community, and they are young children. yeah. and i don't think the children would be telling us if they didn't care about what's happening in their community. yeah. and you know, he said that, you know, there's people coming in cars handing it out.
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mm—hm, and he named shops as well. professor alastair noyce is a senior clinician in neurology and is one of the national leading medics in the country on the effects of nitrous oxide and the dangers it poses. we see every week, patients — young people, under the age of 25, usually, so between 15 and 25 — coming to hospital with neurological symptoms. with loss of sensation in their legs, sometimes their arms, difficulty walking or falling. some of them can't walk at all. they're carried in or come in in a wheelchair. loss of bladder and bowel control or sexual dysfunction. but the scale of the problem is definitely increasing. drugs like ecstasy and cocaine are in mainstream consciousness because they are associated with death. but actually, when you're seeing people coming into the hospital, there's very few people that come in with with those problems, actually, day—to—day. what we're seeing is far more related to nitrous oxide use. here in birmingham, zak — not his real name — didn't want to show his face as he was embarrassed.
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he is battling an addiction with nitrous oxide. went from the little canisters to the big refill canisters. - and it'sjust one - thing led to another. how easy is it to get hold of it? you only have to walk down any i street and you can see how readily it's out there in the shops. within ten minutes, . i could source it, yeah. when you started taking it, did you know that it could be dangerous? no, no, no. it was just told, "it'll i make you feel good for a couple of minutes." we as doctors are seeing people coming into hospital, off their legs, with tingling numbness in their hands or feet... dr david nicholl, a senior clinician in the west midlands, became so concerned with the use of nitrous oxide, he started campaigns on platforms popular amongst younger people like tiktok. do you think one of the reasons for the increase in nitrous oxide use is the accessibility? absolutely, because there's no limit on the volume you can get. i've seen people with 200 of these big cylinders in the back of a car. i can show you websites
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where you can get £8,000 worth of, you know, literally a pallet—load of these cylinders. these companies are absolutely profiting from the harm of our youth, ok? and that is a fundamental disgrace. it's notjust illegal, it's immoral. nitrous oxide can be used for legitimate purposes, such as medicine and catering environments. the government is planning to categorise nitrous oxide as a class c drug, which will make possession a crime. currently, it is only an offence to supply nitrous oxide for recreational use. the government has initiated consultations with both experts and the general public to shape forthcoming policies. in response to that call, bbc new5night has exclusively seen a letter written by professor alastair noyce — signed by leading clinicians and other medics — warning that criminalising possession will have minimal health benefits. we're concerned, as clinicians, that this could lead to more harm. it's unlikely to deter people from using nitrous oxide, but if there's fear of a criminal record and recrimination, then people may delay
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when they develop symptoms coming to hospital, at a time where their symptoms are treatable. and the net effect of that may be that they develop long—term harm, long—term damage. the regulation under the psychoactive substances act really was around targeting the vendors and the sellers of nitrous oxide, and that's where i believe we should be focusing our effort. it should be much harder to get nitrous oxide for recreational use. but targeting the end user, many of them are not in education or employment opportunities right now, reducing those opportunities for them in the future, with very little evidence that it will lead to reductions in neurological harm, i don't think it'sjustified. the advisory council on the misuse of drugs makes recommendations to the government. they have said, "the harms of nitrous oxide do not warrant making personal possession illegal." despite this, the government is going ahead to make an offence, as part of its anti—social behaviour action plan.
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nitrous oxide can be found anywhere. i met cath, from south wirral. as a parent, she has been on a learning curve with a substance. she had no idea about the drug and the harms it can cause until her son became addicted. it's been horrific. he really wanted to stop, and he just couldn't because the psychological dependence is so strong for somebody to keep, to keep using. when you're the one going to pick your son up from somewhere and finding him just basically lay there, can't walk, can't speak, it's just, it's absolutely heartbreaking. you know, you're waiting for a call to tell you that your son is dead. my son was a really bright child, did really well at school, really well liked, played, you know, a really good level of local football. where is your son now?
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my son now is serving a prison sentence, a custodial sentence, for supply of nitrous oxide, which started with an addiction. by the end of the year, it's going to be a criminal offence to possess nitrous oxide. is this the right approach from the government? no, because criminalising it isjust going to push it underground. we're going to have lots of children with criminal records. we're asking the police to police something that's just too big, that they're not going to be able to do. they need to target the source. so they need to be working with the manufacturers and all working, working together. mohammed ashfaq runs a grassroots organisation in birmingham called kikit, which helps deal with drug addiction, and thinks the law with nitrous oxide will help police and make it clearer on what is legal. it's very difficult for even the police to try and completely eradicate this issue, so communities are getting frustrated. and what we're trying... a lot of people are trying to go out there and actually approach the shops and businesses to say, look, do you realise the harms that you're causing to our young people?
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but because the law is not very clear, businesses are saying, look, it's just another product. we're selling it, we're trying to make money. i think it would make a difference. it would be a lot clearer. and then, we can... it will help drug services like change grow live and kikit, and the local police, to get the information out there, the actual law element of this, so young people understand what is legal and what is illegal. medics and safeguarding officials are saying this is an increasing public health issue and want a public health campaign on the dangers of nitrous oxide. the government has taken steps to deal with the social harms caused by it, but questions are being asked if the proposed plans will have any real benefit to communities gripped by nitrous oxide. yasminara khan with that report. a government spokesperson told new5night, "we are taking action to make nitrous oxide — the third most—used drug amongst young people — a class c drug
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by the end of the year. we have also set out a clear strategy in our anti—social behaviour action plan for police to deal with misuse of this substance. " the continuing controversy over the question of reparations for slavery has taken another turn, with the former conservative mp antoinette sandbach objecting to being named as the decendent of a liverpool merchant who had a stake in plantations in the west indies. he was part of a company compensated for more than 600 slaves after abolition. —— a former liberal democrat. antoinette sandbach argues that there is no public interest in identifying her in research by the cambridge academic poet and author, malik al nasir, during which he discovered links to sandbach, tinne's enslaved africans, but also the slave owners. antoinette sandbach supports malik al nasir�*s research, but accuses him of singling her out. malik al nasir is here. and we are also joined by the historian professor
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lawrence goldman — the former director of the institute of historical research, who has taught the history of american slavery. good evening to both of you. malik al nasir, why in the tedx, not your broader research, but the tedx talk you did, did you single out antoinette sandbach with what she saysis antoinette sandbach with what she says is actually, it has compromised her personal safety?— her personal safety? well, good evenin: her personal safety? well, good evening and _ her personal safety? well, good evening and thanks _ her personal safety? well, good evening and thanks for - her personal safety? well, good evening and thanks for having i her personal safety? well, good. evening and thanks for having me her personal safety? well, good - evening and thanks for having me on the show. firstly, i would like to say that antoinette sandbach was not singled out, this is a unilateral declaration she has made, she was a footnote in a tedx that was about samuel sandbach, her ancestor, the slave trader. what was being demonstrated is the mercantile influence of this dynasty of sugar barons and slave traders from that period. known as sandbach, tinne & company, of which she is a direct descendant of one of the founding
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partners, samuel sandbach. they have many individuals within the family who have held public office, including prime minister william gladstone and his father sirjohn gladstone, who was one of the biggest slave owners and also monopolised much of the sugar industry along with sandbach, tinne & company in demerara. on a number of occasions, i have identified multiple political figures within this family and i did a talk at cambridge university where i focused onjohn tinne. this was not directed at which? oh, she has taken umbrage and made this unilateral declaration that because she was mentioned as a footnote in a talk, she was targeted, but that is not the case. this presumably is a legitimate
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research and malik al nasir says that antoinette sandbach was a footnote. but when you have a tedx talk, the footnote can be witnessed by millions. was it legitimate or is it right for her to feel it wasn't a matter for public discourse? first of all, i matter for public discourse? first of all. i think— matter for public discourse? first of all, i think i — matter for public discourse? first of all, i think i would _ matter for public discourse? first of all, i think i would want to say how much— of all, i think i would want to say how much i— of all, i think i would want to say how much i admire research into the history— how much i admire research into the history of— how much i admire research into the history of slavery such as malik al nasir— history of slavery such as malik al nasir is— history of slavery such as malik al nasir is doing and long may that continue — nasir is doing and long may that continue. the question really is why it would _ continue. the question really is why it would be — continue. the question really is why it would be necessary to name a living _ it would be necessary to name a living person. there are plenty of ways— living person. there are plenty of ways of— living person. there are plenty of ways of mentioning individuals who, in research, — ways of mentioning individuals who, in research, either evidence is given— in research, either evidence is given anonymously or names are read out and _ given anonymously or names are read out and there may be a dynasty of figures _ out and there may be a dynasty of figures from the 18th—century who malik— figures from the 18th—century who malik has — figures from the 18th—century who malik has been studying. at that point _ malik has been studying. at that point can— malik has been studying. at that point can be made very easily without— point can be made very easily without actually naming a living person — without actually naming a living person and possibly bringing them into harm's way. -- person and possibly bringing them into harm's way.— person and possibly bringing them
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into harm's way. -- but that point. malik al nasir, _ into harm's way. -- but that point. malik al nasir, antoinette - into harm's way. -- but that point. l malik al nasir, antoinette sandbach says she supports your research and she detest slavery, but she had a right to slavery and there is no public interest in naming her. == public interest in naming her. -- detests. public interest in naming her. -- detests- do _ public interest in naming her. » detests. do you accept that argument? that argument was not made to me, it was made to the university of cambridge when she initially approached my supervisor and complained. it wasn'tjust approached my supervisor and complained. it wasn't just that she was also arguing that the picture i used of samuel sandbach was not him when in fact, it was, and she was questioning the veracity of my research. there were a number of things i had to respond to to my supervisor, which i did to his satisfaction. then she made a formal complaint on the grounds of gdpr, which went to the data compliance department. and it had nothing to do with me. find department. and it had nothing to do with me. �* ., , department. and it had nothing to do with me. �* . , with me. and that is something i know that you — with me. and that is something i know that you are _ with me. and that is something i know that you are taking - with me. and that is something i know that you are taking up - with me. and that is something i know that you are taking up and | know that you are taking up and pursuing. i know that you are taking up and ursuinu. ., ., know that you are taking up and ursuinu. . ., ., ,, know that you are taking up and ”ursuin . ., ., ., ~' ., know that you are taking up and ..ur5uin_ . ., . ~' . , pursuing. i am not taking that up and pursuing _ pursuing. i am not taking that up and pursuing that _ pursuing. i am not taking that up and pursuing that at _ pursuing. i am not taking that up and pursuing that at all. - pursuing. i am not taking that up and pursuing that at all. that - pursuing. i am not taking that up| and pursuing that at all. that was pursued by cambridge university. i
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was brought into that. only at the point when she intimated that she was going to potentially issue legal action against cambridge and me. at that point, they brought me into that point, they brought me into that discussion. prior to that, it was between her two sorry to interrupt, professor, it seems now we are in an unprecedented period where we interrogate both the responsibility and reparations for slavery. responsibility and reparations for slave . ., ,~ responsibility and reparations for slave . ., , ., slavery. lord trevelyan is leading the way and _ slavery. lord trevelyan is leading the way and that. _ slavery. lord trevelyan is leading the way and that. malik, - slavery. lord trevelyan is leading the way and that. malik, you - slavery. lord trevelyan is leading the way and that. malik, you talk| the way and that. malik, you talk about the gladstone family. there is an acknowledgement of past wrongs. what do you think about the idea that there should be reparation or indeed, is that not the way of actually dealing with this? well, i am not actually dealing with this? well, i am rrot quite _ actually dealing with this? well, i am not quite sure _ actually dealing with this? well, i am not quite sure that _ actually dealing with this? well, i am not quite sure that that - actually dealing with this? well, i am not quite sure that that is - actually dealing with this? well, i am not quite sure that that is the | am not quite sure that that is the issue _ am not quite sure that that is the issue i_ am not quite sure that that is the issue. i don't know. if that is the issue. _ issue. i don't know. if that is the issue. there _ issue. i don't know. if that is the issue, there is... issue. i don't know. if that is the issue, there is. . ._ issue. i don't know. if that is the issue, there is... broadly, that is one of the _ issue, there is... broadly, that is one of the big — issue, there is... broadly, that is one of the big conversations - issue, there is... broadly, that is one of the big conversationsjust| one of the big conversations just now. one of the big conversations 'ust
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now. ._ , one of the big conversations 'ust now. ., , ., one of the big conversations 'ust now. , ., , ., , now. 0k, there may well be a problem in the sense — now. 0k, there may well be a problem in the sense that _ now. 0k, there may well be a problem in the sense that malik's _ now. 0k, there may well be a problem in the sense that malik's work - now. 0k, there may well be a problem in the sense that malik's work in - now. 0k, there may well be a problem in the sense that malik's work in an . in the sense that malik's work in an academic— in the sense that malik's work in an academic context is also being mixed with as _ academic context is also being mixed with as it— academic context is also being mixed with as it were malik's more political— with as it were malik's more political advocacy. with as it were malik's more politicaladvocacy. i with as it were malik's more political advocacy. i don't know, i am not _ political advocacy. i don't know, i am not privy— political advocacy. i don't know, i am not privy to his work. but clearly, — am not privy to his work. but clearly, there is academic history which _ clearly, there is academic history which will— clearly, there is academic history which will definitely need to be done — which will definitely need to be done. which deals with the history. and then _ done. which deals with the history. and then there is political advocacy. malik can do both, all historians— advocacy. malik can do both, all historians and political figures and writers _ historians and political figures and writers can— historians and political figures and writers can do both, but it is the mixture — writers can do both, but it is the mixture of— writers can do both, but it is the mixture of the two in a thesis that is a problem. as it were, it defies academic— is a problem. as it were, it defies academic content —— academic conventions. this academic work is being _ conventions. this academic work is being mixed — conventions. this academic work is being mixed with a claim as it were for reparations and asking antoinette sandbach to make such reparations, then that raises questions about a doctoral thesis which _ questions about a doctoral thesis which should be a pure piece of objective — which should be a pure piece of objective history. let which should be a pure piece of objective history.— which should be a pure piece of objective history. let me ask malik, are ou objective history. let me ask malik, are you more _ objective history. let me ask malik, are you more broadly _ objective history. let me ask malik, are you more broadly in _ objective history. let me ask malik, are you more broadly in favour - objective history. let me ask malik, are you more broadly in favour of i are you more broadly in favour of
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