good morning and welcome to the nation's phone—in. it's your chance to have your say on the biggest stories of the moment. this morning: prison escape — what went wrong? a huge manhunt is under way for terror suspect daniel abed khalife. he escaped from london's wandsworth prison on wednesday morning. the 21—year—old is accused of leaving fake bombs at a military base while serving in the army. details have emerged of his escape — that he was working in the prison�*s kitchens, helping to prepare breakfast.

he then apparently got out by strapping himself underneath a food delivery van, still wearing his chef's uniform. how could this have happened? an extraordinary lapse in security. many say embarrassing, you only had onejob. but many say embarrassing, you only had one job. but wandsworth many say embarrassing, you only had onejob. but wandsworth prison has huge defties. —— difficulties. while he is on the outside, we want the view from the inside, have you been in wandsworth prison, what is it like? give us your experience of that particular institution and others elsewhere. you may work as a prison officer, as a visit or. your thoughts on what happened and how it could have happened, how the system works or doesn't work. as the search

for daniel abed khalife goes on, the prison escape, what went wrong? here is the news. thank you. it is the main story today. a former head of security at wandsworth has said the prison is in "freefall" with staff shortages and low morale. ian acheson said he wasn't surprised that terror suspect, daniel khalife, was able to escape yesterday, clinging to the bottom of a delivery van. the uk has rejoined the eu's flagship scientific research scheme, horizon. it means uk—based scientists and institutions can now apply for money from the £85 billion fund they were frozen out of two years

ago. shares in pets at home group are down more than 10% this morning — after the announcement from the competition and markets authority that it's begun a review of the whole veterinary services industry. it's raised concerns that pet owners aren't being given easy access to information about pricing and treatment options. the halifax says house prices fell at their fastest annual rate in m years last month. they were down by 4.6% in the year to the end of august, a fall of £14,000 for the average home. wand worth prison is big and a forbidding place. i live very near it and i often think when i go past it, no one ain't going to get past it. sometimes when i walk my dog i

chat to a prison officer and he tells me frightening stuff about what goes on. it has not had a particularly good bill of health as regards staffing morale and conditions for prisoners. we will discuss what is going on and how anyone can get out. it is a brazen escape this, isn't it? 0scar build, ronny biggest, gary glitter, chris hume, a liberal democrat mp, jailed for swapping speeding points with his wife. a good few have been in and this guy has got out. khalife worked in the prison kitchen. as mentioned, always worth mentioning, was believed to have crawled on to a

van as it drove it. simonjones is outside wandsworth prison. what happened? it outside wandsworth prison. what ha ened? , , outside wandsworth prison. what hauened? , , w, ., , happened? it seems extraordinary, somethin: happened? it seems extraordinary, something you _ happened? it seems extraordinary, something you might _ happened? it seems extraordinary, something you might hear- happened? it seems extraordinary, something you might hear in - happened? it seems extraordinary, something you might hear in a - happened? it seems extraordinary, | something you might hear in a film. so it was yesterday morning, just over 2a hours ago when this prisoner, danielabed khalife, over 2a hours ago when this prisoner, daniel abed khalife, who was working as a chef, managed to make his escape by clinging to the bottom of a van that had gone into the prison delivering food. in theory, that van should have been checked notjust when it went in, but when it was leaving. so some real questions about how this actually happened. and in terms of the police investigation, that man hunt is very much continuing today. i have spoken to the metropolitan police and they say there has been no break through in the search. the fear is that khalife could be well

away from here by now. having had 2a hours on the run. so all ports are carrying out additional checks, ports and airports. and the police are saying all police services are being put on high alert, because the reality is they don't know where he is. and also what he might be planning to do. fix, is. and also what he might be planning to tie-— is. and also what he might be ”lannin to do. �* ., ., , ., , planning to do. a lot of questions, why wasn't — planning to do. a lot of questions, why wasn't he _ planning to do. a lot of questions, why wasn't he in _ planning to do. a lot of questions, why wasn't he in a _ planning to do. a lot of questions, why wasn't he in a high _ planning to do. a lot of questions, why wasn't he in a high security i why wasn't he in a high security prison, that is normally the prison to house terrorist suspects, belmarsh? why was he in wandsworth. this was a man who was awaiting trial for some very serious offences. he was accused of planting fake bombs at the military barracks he used to be based at when he was a former soldier. he used to be based at when he was a formersoldier. he's he used to be based at when he was a former soldier. he's also been accused of procuring material which could be used for terrorists or people who want to cause harm to the uk. and thejustice secretary himself alex chalk is asking the

prison service why was he in this prison, a category b prison, rather than a category a prison where often terrorist prisoners are held. we haven't got a clear answer to that. that will be part of the urgent investigation that has been ordered by the government. the government also asking how he was able to escape like this. interestingly, things are running pretty smoothly at the prison today, about 8 o'clock we saw the shift change and we have seen vans bringing food into the prison going in. no doubt they will be searched more carefully, or perhaps searched at all on their way out. just one little insight. as some of the prison officers were waiting to go in this morning, one said to me, he raised his eyebrows and said you must be tempted to play

the benny hill theme watching us going in. he is not impressed with the way the prison is run, or perhaps the pressure on the staff. a lot questions for the prison service and the government. the key question is where is mr khalife and what is he planning to do? i is where is mr khalife and what is he planning to do?— he planning to do? i have had similar conversations - he planning to do? i have had similar conversations as - he planning to do? i have had similar conversations as i - he planning to do? i have had similar conversations as i wasj similar conversations as i was mentioning with somebody who is a prison officer in wandsworth. there is a lot to examine about what is going on in that institution. tell us more simon about the man hunt. people are talking about possible delays at borders, what is happening there? it delays at borders, what is happening there? ., , , delays at borders, what is happening there? . , , ., there? it was interesting that the olice onl there? it was interesting that the police only went _ there? it was interesting that the police only went public _ there? it was interesting that the police only went public with - there? it was interesting that the police only went public with this i police only went public with this escape during the course of the middle of the afternoon yesterday. before that, people had noticed at airports and ports that something unusual was happening. suddenly security seemed to be stepped up and

that led to long queues at places like dover and manchester airport and heathrow and gatwick. we have spoken to dover today and they say they are still required to carry out additional checks on people leaving the country. the fear is he might try to leave the country and that is leading to additional security. it might be another difficult day at the port and airports. i think that is nothing compared to the difficulty and questions the government are going to face. because each hour that daniel khalife remains on the run will increase the pressure on the government about how this was allowed happen and real questions about the prison service, whether staffing is adequate, the local mp in the area, a labour mp, said back in the area, a labour mp, said back in december she discovered that on one night shift only seven members of staff were available to look after 1,500 prisoners. of staff were available to look after1,500 prisoners. now, of staff were available to look after 1,500 prisoners. now, for any

prison member of staff like that, that will be an extraordinarily tough task. questions about morale and security and about how prisons are being run. just adding to the pressure on the government when you also take in the issue of schools, they have been dealing with, many other issues. so for the government it is going to be a difficult day and they will be hoping that the police make a break through quickly. thank you. simonjones outside wandsworth prison. the spotlight is on the prison service and on wandsworth in particular. a lot to get into. david is with us, a former prisoner, but now a prison reformer. chris atkins spent a year in wandsworth prison after committing tax fraud. what do you make of this? i'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. you said you thought

wandsworth liked secure. inside it is chaos. the staff are very young and inexperienced. they don't know what they're doing. the processes are very old. before i went, a prisoner escaped, because they let him out eight months early, there was a slip up with the paperwork. he went around london taking selfies of landmarks to taunt the prison officer. ~ ., , ~ officer. what is life like in there? well it is quite _ officer. what is life like in there? well it is quite interesting, - well it is quite interesting, following the escape the prison went into lockdown, which was a joke for me and my ex—prison friends, because it is always in lockdown, the huge majority are locked in their cells for about 23 hours a day. there is little rehabilitation or education or training, little rehabilitation or education ortraining, or drug

little rehabilitation or education or training, or drug treatment, because the social staff, everyone is locked in their cells all day every day. it is a form of hell basically. 50 every day. it is a form of hell basically-— every day. it is a form of hell basicall . ., , ., ~ basically. so what is that like? beina in basically. so what is that like? being in a _ basically. so what is that like? being in a cell _ basically. so what is that like? being in a cell for _ basically. so what is that like? being in a cell for 23 _ basically. so what is that like? being in a cell for 23 hours? i basically. so what is that like? l being in a cell for 23 hours? you lose your — being in a cell for 23 hours? you lose your mind _ being in a cell for 23 hours? you lose your mind to _ being in a cell for 23 hours? you lose your mind to be _ being in a cell for 23 hours? you. lose your mind to be honest with you. and in a tiny cell there is two of you, they'r designed for one person. in the summer, i dread to think what it is like, because it is baking hot and no air conditioning. it is built in victorian times. if you kept animal there is you would be prosecuted by the rspca. what be prosecuted by the rspca. what about this escape? _ be prosecuted by the rspca. what about this escape? how it happened? this is so surreal, i have a book out called time after time and about the lives of real prisoners and one in particular is about a prison

escape and it is similar to this one. a guy called simon mclellan who escaped from winchester prison and walked out the front gate. how? he pretended to be his own twin brother. he pretended to get his twin who got into the prison on a minor offence and they switched places. but they are nonidentical twins. at trial, the prosecution had to be abandoned, because the judge looked at two photo and said how can you be so stupid and threw out the charges. it is like black adder, porridge is a great reference. things are going wrong in a very chaotic way. it is because it is underfunded. there is a serious

message, the coalition government cut the budget by about a billion pounds and we lost many front line officers. about a third of officers were cut over that time. the number of prisoners stayed the same. you have fewer officers looking after greater numbers of prisoners and this will happen. we greater numbers of prisoners and this will happen.— greater numbers of prisoners and this will happen. we must talk about the specifics. — this will happen. we must talk about the specifics, but _ this will happen. we must talk about the specifics, but on _ this will happen. we must talk about the specifics, but on that _ this will happen. we must talk about the specifics, but on that point, - this will happen. we must talk about the specifics, but on that point, i - the specifics, but on that point, i think it is important, because — woe betide any government that puts serious money into the prison service, because they get the wrath of certain newspapers, to do that... exactly. you have hit the nail on the head. everyone know what is he need to fix the problem, which is money. it is difficult for any

government labour or conservative to say we want to spend more on the prison system in a way that will be humane and progressive. 0ne prison system in a way that will be humane and progressive. one thing we know works is education. about 50% of prisoners are functionally illiterate. about... there should be money spent on literacy programmes. you have people locked up for years and you could teach them to read and write. that do i that in scandinavia, so when they come out they get jobs scandinavia, so when they come out they getjobs and don't commit crime. we cut funding for all the literacy programmes. it is almost impossible to get taught the basics of reading and writing in prison. things like that would make a vast difference and lower re—offending and 80% of all crimes are reoffences. if you cut re—offending rgs you cut crime and that means no more victims. but it is a debate

people don't want to have, because it involves spending money in areas for some newspapers looks like soft justice and there is an jut cry. == justice and there is an 'ut cry. -- outc . justice and there is an 'ut cry. -- outcry. the t justice and there is an 'ut cry. -- outcry. the web-site _ justice and there is an jut cry. -- outcry. the web-site for - justice and there is an jut cry. -- - outcry. the web-site for wandsworth prison, prisoners _ outcry. the web-site for wandsworth prison, prisoners can _ outcry. the web-site for wandsworth prison, prisoners can have _ outcry. the web-site for wandsworth prison, prisoners can have a - outcry. the web-site for wandsworth prison, prisoners can have a broad i prison, prisoners can have a broad amount of learning facilities, radio production, each person who arrives gets an induction that lasts about a week. they will meet professionals to help them with wealth and well being, any misuse issues, personal development in custody and on release, including skills and education, interventions such as managing difficult emotions. we heard there were seven prison officers in charge of hundreds of people. officers in charge of hundreds of --eole. , , ,

people. this is the thing, it is createst people. this is the thing, it is greatest work _ people. this is the thing, it is greatest work of _ people. this is the thing, it is greatest work of fiction - people. this is the thing, it is greatest work of fiction since | people. this is the thing, it is - greatest work of fiction since war and peace. the idea there is this horticulture, i spent nine months in there, it wasjust horticulture, i spent nine months in there, it was just barren, horticulture, i spent nine months in there, it wasjust barren, it horticulture, i spent nine months in there, it was just barren, it was being in your cell for 23 hours a day and get shouted at. that is one of the mad things about this, the government and the system is in denial, they publish things like that, a week long induction, that is a farce, people would be in there for weeks without knowing how to phone their families and get books from the library. nobody knew anything. and what the government does it pretend everything is fine ljy does it pretend everything is fine by publishing this nonsense and seven prison officer to look after 1,500 men. this is wloo why you have riots. if you look at what happened in birmingham, they took the keys and they had to send the riot squad in and call up hundreds of police to

storm the place. you talk to any prison officer, it is like a powder keg that is waiting for a spark. if you keep cutting staff, escapes is the worst of our worries, it could get more serious.— the worst of our worries, it could get more serious. however grim or progressive — get more serious. however grim or progressive the _ get more serious. however grim or progressive the prison _ get more serious. however grim or progressive the prison is, - get more serious. however grim or progressive the prison is, he - get more serious. however grim orj progressive the prison is, he would still have tried to escape. i surmise. we have got chris atkins, who spent a year after committing tax fraud, we have heard from chris. we have got david shipley, a former prisoner at wandsworth him and now campaigns for prison reform. good morning, david. hope campaigns for prison reform. good morning, david.— campaigns for prison reform. good l morning, david._ fine. morning, david. how are you? fine. thinkin: morning, david. how are you? fine. thinking about _ morning, david. how are you? fine. thinking about this _ morning, david. how are you? fine. thinking about this particular- thinking about this particular escape by this particular man. do you think it was an opportunist event, he saw the van and thought i will go for it, or do you think he would have had to have help? i think

it is very difficult _ would have had to have help? i think it is very difficult to _ would have had to have help? i think it is very difficult to say. _ would have had to have help? i think it is very difficult to say. the - it is very difficult to say. the questions here are why this guy was working in the kitchens? the kitchens are one of the jobs in wandsworth that are considered a high securityjob. and also because you have access to outside. 0bviously food deliveries come into the prison every day. those lorries drive into the prison and drive out. so any prisoner who is considered a high risk of escape shouldn't be working in that environment. and there is supposed to be a process in place and there was when i was there, that all those vehicles leaving had their under side checked with a mirror. so something has gone wrong there. given the state of our prison systems and wandsworth, it is hard to say if it is... just a catastrophic failure, because it is a terribly run organisation or had someone helped him? it could be

either. ~ ., , ~ i either. what is it like in there? i think it is _ either. what is it like in there? i think it is very _ either. what is it like in there? i think it is very similar _ either. what is it like in there? i think it is very similar to - either. what is it like in there? i think it is very similar to what i think it is very similar to what chris was saying, it is probably the worst—run organisation i have ever seen. it is understaffed, it is filthy. during my time there, there was so few staff that prisoner had to choose between having a shower or seeing the open sky or clean their cells. the latest inspection report from the inspector of prisons said the same is the case now. it is not getting better, it is getting worse. it is a powder keg frankly.- it is a powder keg frankly. would the fact that _ it is a powder keg frankly. would the fact that it _ it is a powder keg frankly. would the fact that it was _ it is a powder keg frankly. would the fact that it was short-staffed j the fact that it was short—staffed have had insoming something to do with the opportunity to escape? it could do. in theory, at the moment wandsworth employs it is full complement of staff, but a third of

them are off for sickness. this means you might have enough staff overseeing the kitchen, but the staff won't necessarily be familiar with what is working there. because they get moved around all the time. what that means is they might note have known who was supposed to be there, it could take longer to know someone was missing. these issues create more opportunities for an escape. create more opportunities for an esca e. ~ ., create more opportunities for an escae. ~., ., .., create more opportunities for an escae. ., ., ., escape. more to m co. -. -- more to come. escape. more to m co. -. -- more to come- 08085 — escape. more to m co. -. -- more to come. 08085 909693 _ escape. more to m co. -. -- more to come. 08085 909693 is _ escape. more to m co. -. -- more to come. 08085 909693 is the - escape. more to m co. -. -- more to| come. 08085 909693 is the number. some breaking news, a former tory whip chris pincher is to resign as an mp. it will trigger a by—election in his tamworth constituency. allegations against chris pincher of course which he maintains were in a private members' club. but still he has resigned and those allegations and the timing of them were very

much central to the political demise of borisjohnson. he says, i have already said i will not stand at the next general election, but following the independent expert panel's decision i want to talk to my team and family. i don't want my constituents to be put to further incertainty and i have made —— uncertainty so i have made arrangements to leave. tamworth is a wonderful place and it has been an honour to represent its people. i shall make no further comment at this time. further problems for the government, another by—election. recently nadine dorries has officially resigned. there is to be a by—election in mid bedfordshire and now one in this particular constituency of tamworth. so a few by—election problems piling up for the prime minister there. let's get back to wandsworth prison. prison

problems, and, yeah, we havejoe. how are you doing? hi. problems, and, yeah, we have joe. how are you doing?— how are you doing? hi, i'm very well. yourself? _ how are you doing? hi, i'm very well. yourself? i'm _ how are you doing? hi, i'm very well. yourself? i'm fine. - how are you doing? hi, i'm very well. yourself? i'm fine. so - how are you doing? hi, i'm very well. yourself? i'm fine. so you| well. yourself? i'm fine. so you will have _ well. yourself? i'm fine. so you will have an _ well. yourself? i'm fine. so you will have an insight _ well. yourself? i'm fine. so you will have an insight on - well. yourself? i'm fine. so you will have an insight on this, - well. yourself? i'm fine. so you| will have an insight on this, what is it? ., ., ., ~' will have an insight on this, what is it? ., ., is it? so, i mean if we look at, i have the — is it? so, i mean if we look at, i have the inspectorate _ is it? so, i mean if we look at, i have the inspectorate report - is it? so, i mean if we look at, i have the inspectorate report in l have the inspectorate report in front of me, this is not a new issue, going back to 2014 it has been reported, notjust in wandsworth but woodhill in milton keynes and the staffing crisis is leading to more issues like this. there is a security risk. staff, their mental health, because they're being overworked and there is a lack of staff and because i don't feel there is enough support for staff from what i have heard as well. that is why staff aren't coming in. the prisons are going mad. and like your

guest you had on, there is not, with prisoners not being able to take part in the workshop, education programmes, the specific rehabilitation programmes that they need to reintegrate into society, we see this cycle that we see time and time again. there was the criticism of the staff member who was in the tower, why didn't he see the prisoner escape, he should have been on it. if you have one person in the tower and not enough prison officers around the prison to stop this from happening, you, there is no way you are going to be able to get this under control and these incidents were become more likely time and time again. there needs to be better training and support for staff. because i feel like the government

have made a bit of a cutback on the standard of training that has been given. that is not... any bad word to prison officers in prisons, they're doing a greatjob, it is very stressful, you see stuff that no one can imagine from the outside without doing thejob. no one can imagine from the outside without doing the job. but there needs to be more support, more care and better training and the government have got to tackle this. i'm interested in what you're saying about support for the staff, i would value contact this morning, whether it outside without doing the job. but there needs to be more support, more care and better training and the government have got to tackle this. �* , ., , ., �* this. i'm interested in what you're sa in: this. i'm interested in what you're saying about _ this. i'm interested in what you're saying about support _ this. i'm interested in what you're saying about support for- this. i'm interested in what you're saying about support for the - this. i'm interested in what you're| saying about support for the staff, i would value contact this morning, whether it be by text or phone, serving prison officers, you don't have to give your name, your insights are central to our conversation. what you're saying, joe, about what they have to do, what they have to put up with, how

much they have to do, because of the lack of staff, and key to that, the lack of staff, and key to that, the lack of staff, and key to that, the lack of support. i only say this, because joe and lack of support. i only say this, becausejoe and i'm sure this is something you will recognise, my daughter's best friend, she is a prison officer, and the things she has seen and had to do, she has to help take people down from ropes, and it is traumatising. she says and it is a constant thing my daughter tells me about her friend, there inadequate personal support. that is what you're saying? yes. inadequate personal support. that is what you're saying?— what you're saying? yes, with prisoners' _ what you're saying? yes, with prisoners' welfare _ what you're saying? yes, with prisoners' welfare and - what you're saying? yes, with prisoners' welfare and we - what you're saying? yes, with| prisoners' welfare and we have what you're saying? yes, with - prisoners' welfare and we have to look out for their human rights and there is arguments which many people will in society will say, they have done this crime, shouldn't care, but you have to look after their welfare. to cut this to stop this re—offending we have to look after

them, they're people, being locked up them, they're people, being locked up in a box, in this weather, they're so hot. you get prisoners starting to struggle with that. they feel there is no way out. you get prison officers, like in covid they were overworked and they feel there is no way out and you have prisoners hanging themselves and staff that have to see that. these things are harrowing and they stay with you, they're images you can't forget and they're images you can't forget and the post—traumatic stress disorder that the rate of staff which suffer from ptsd is through the roof. and the government and the prison service as a whole do say that they have got lots of support for staff and their welfare and checking, but actually in reality when you talk to prison officers, it is not there and that support is inadequate. let’s that support is inadequate. let's talk to a prison _ that support is inadequate. let's talk to a prison officer, - that support is inadequate. let's talk to a prison officer, douglas, an ex—prison officer, not the real

name. hi. first the particular story and secondly all the off shoot issues which we are addressing, what are you thoughts? this issues which we are addressing, what are you thoughts?— are you thoughts? this is the chickens have _ are you thoughts? this is the chickens have come - are you thoughts? this is the chickens have come home i are you thoughts? this is the chickens have come home to | are you thoughts? this is the i chickens have come home to roost. the government's slashed the prison service, 13, 14 years ago. but 20 years ago we could see it. we were the cinderella service. we are vital to society, but we are ignored by society. and they cut the roles and society. and they cut the roles and society didn't notice, because the good people that read the daily mail don't tend to end up in prison. yesterday's events is a classic, the gate staff, you have probably got one trained prison officer on the gate, the rest will be operational support grades that are locally

recruited and trained staff who wear a uniform similar to a prison officer, but they don't have the same depth of training. 0ne officer, but they don't have the same depth of training. one of those support grades will have escorted this vehicle to the kitchens, which are civilianised now, it used to be you would have instructors in there and the rest of the staff were prison officer. that isn't there, they're all civilians now, working in the kitchen working party, that is made up of a lot of strong—willed manipulative prisoners, because it has always been the best working party to get on, because you get out of your cell and you can eat as much as you wants. i'm surprised it hasn't happened perfect. —— happened before. hasn't happened perfect. -- happened before. ~ . ., , , hasn't happened perfect. -- happened before. . , , before. what about the stuff you saw and the support _ before. what about the stuff you saw and the support to _ before. what about the stuff you saw and the support to help _ before. what about the stuff you saw and the support to help you - before. what about the stuff you saw and the support to help you through l and the support to help you through it? i and the support to help you through it? ., , ., ., and the support to help you through it? ., ., . and the support to help you through it? .,, ., ., .,' . .,

it? i was a landing officer. i had to unlock _ it? i was a landing officer. i had to unlock 61 _ it? i was a landing officer. i had to unlock 61 prisoners _ it? i was a landing officer. i had to unlock 61 prisoners by - it? i was a landing officer. i had| to unlock 61 prisoners by myself it? i was a landing officer. i had i to unlock 61 prisoners by myself on what is called the 4s, that is the highest landings we had, so removed from other officers. if anything happened... ijust relied on the good will of my prisoners. i had no support. you felt overworked and pressurised you could no and work in the you could go and work in the workshop before they were civilian ised to get you out of the pressure because 61 men are very demanding because 61 men are very demanding because it is a very demanding confrontational situation. ii'iin�*n�* because it is a very demanding confrontational situation. how did ou feel confrontational situation. how did you feel when _ confrontational situation. how did you feel when you _ confrontational situation. how did you feel when you got _ confrontational situation. how did you feel when you got home i confrontational situation. how did you feel when you got home afterj confrontational situation. how did i you feel when you got home after a days work? you feel when you got home after a da s work? �* ., you feel when you got home after a days work?— days work? before and after i was drinkina. i days work? before and after i was drinking. i would _ days work? before and after i was drinking. i would get _ days work? before and after i was

drinking. i would get home - days work? before and after i was drinking. i would get home and i i drinking. i would get home and i would have to have a drink because there is no support and the thing is you're always told in the prison service keep it in the prison, the keep saying you'll leave your precious behind when you leave your keys behind. that is easier said than done when you know you're going backin than done when you know you're going back in the next day to face the same 61 men who have the same problems. same 61 men who have the same roblems. ~ , ., same 61 men who have the same problems-— same 61 men who have the same problems-_ i - same 61 men who have the same problems._ i wasj problems. will you attach? i was attacked a _ problems. will you attach? i was attacked a couple _ problems. will you attach? i was attacked a couple of _ problems. will you attach? i was attacked a couple of times. i i problems. will you attach? i was attacked a couple of times. i got| attacked a couple of times. i got hit in the face with a metal food tray. these metalfood hit in the face with a metal food tray. these metal food trays weigh about one kilo and a half. remember watching the tv programme m*a*s*h, they are very heavy and have sharp edges and i got one straight in the

face. i got four orfive days edges and i got one straight in the face. i got four or five days of work and i got back in the said you can work on the lowest landing. finally, douglas, what about this particular escape by this prisoner, when you heard about it what were your first thoughts?— your first thoughts? genuinely not surrised. your first thoughts? genuinely not surprised. the _ your first thoughts? genuinely not surprised. the staff _ your first thoughts? genuinely not surprised. the staff there - your first thoughts? genuinely not surprised. the staff there are i surprised. the staff there are undertrained and overworked and underappreciated with no motivation, they are treated worse than the police in a lot of ways and the police in a lot of ways and the police get a bad press. these guys are going to a secret world and they forgotten about by society yet here we are a up down saying blameless officer, that governor, blame whoever. perhaps we should look in the mirror and stop blaming themselves for cutting corners so much. ~ ., ., , brilliant insights, please.

call me on 08085 909693. text 85058. the news is coming up. here's dan maudsley. cabinet minister, michelle donelan, has described yesterday's wandsworth prison escape as an 'isolated incident�* and not an indicator of a wider issue. there's been criticism by labour of chronic understaffing after terror suspect, daniel khalife, was able to escsape by clinging to the bottom of a delivery van. the uk has

rejoined the eu's flagship scientific research scheme, horizon. it means uk—based scientists and institutions can now apply to the £85 billion fund they were frozen out of two years ago. the former conservative party whip, chris pincher, has announced he's resigning as an mp. it's after he lost an appeal against his eight—week suspension over groping allegations. the halifax says the price of an average home fell by £14,000 a year last monh. they were down by 4.6% — the highest annual drop for 14 yea rs. the 2021 us 0pen champion daniil medvedev has warned that a player will die as the heatwave across new york continued. medvedev made the comments to a camera as he struggled with the conditions during his quarterfinal win over andrey rublev, as temperatures hit 35

degrees celsius on court. medvedev will take on carlos alcaraz in the last four. an all—american women's singles final remains a possibility after madison keys set up a semifinal with ayrena sabalenka. coco gauff will take on karoline muchova. manchester city chief executive ferran soriano has been voted onto the powerful european clubs' association board. he takes the place previously held by tottenham chairman daniel levy. the top tier of women's football in spain, liga f looks set to be delayed with players going on strike for the first two weeks of the season after failing to agree on a new minimum wage. players are looking to secure a minimum wage of 25,000 euros for the new season, which would eventually rise to 30,000 euros. liga f said it couldn't meet all the demands of the players, due to the risk of it causing the collapse of the competition.

are vets a rip—off?

let's talk about vets — they're highly skilled, they acts as surgeons, physicians, psychiatrists, pharamacists, and if they've been with you at the end of your pet's life you'll knowjust how brilliant they can be. if your pet is ill then you'll do whatever you can to get that member for listeners on bbc radio 5 live we're discussing pets and vets. are vets a rip—off? vet services in the uk are under review because of concerns that pet owners are paying too much. the competition and markets authority is worried that owners are not getting value for money and that the cost of care has soared faster than inflation. i want to reduce some texts and then hear from i want to reduce some texts and then hearfrom david, a former prisoner and no prison reform campaigner. i want to tell everyone what people are saying stop a big thank you to

douglas, a former prison officer. we heard the truth in his voice, can't believe what douglas has gone through and thank you for bringing this to the four. stand tall. an interesting text, i am a criminal defence solicitor based in london and i have to frequently visit client in prison and the present position is appalling across the country. a huge issue with short staffing and prisoners are extremely vulnerable and mistakes made daily. the issue is notjust escapes but the number of prisoners released by mistake. believe it or not, last year we had a client reminded awaiting trial accused of a serious violent robbery released by mistake. he eventually returned voluntarily but this was a serious breach by the present and nothing further was heard about it. i am sure a deep

look into these mistakes will give us a further concern about potential dangerous offenders escaping or being released by mistake. another one, i spent time in wandsworth, it was like a jungle with lots of predatory behaviour. if an opportunity to get out and came up i would have gone any breath. the other side, would have gone any breath. the otherside, i would have gone any breath. the other side, i guess with this one. you are looking at this feudal wrong lands. if there were a proper consequences for committing a crime that would be a real deterrent. less prisoners, less resources needed. richard in leeds, i am prisoners, less resources needed. richard in leeds, iam not prisoners, less resources needed. richard in leeds, i am not sure if criminological research or international comparisons necessarily bear that out. let's go with david, of former prisoner and now a prison reform campaigner. that

is clearl a now a prison reform campaigner. that is clearly a lot — now a prison reform campaigner. that is clearly a lot to _ now a prison reform campaigner. that is clearly a lot to unpack. to be honest, from my own perspective and experience, ifirst went honest, from my own perspective and experience, i first went away as a 15—year—old child in 1985 and was subjected to 0peration safeguard in 1987 and from what i have been listening to the conversation is not changed. we have seen lots of changes take place in the prison system and criminaljustice system but however a lot is not changed. talk of overcrowding, i suppose one thing that has changed is the discussion about inexperienced staff. 0ne discussion about inexperienced staff. one thing i used to say to new receptions when taking inductions, see the people with the keys, they have probably been doing this job keys, they have probably been doing thisjob longer than you keys, they have probably been doing this job longer than you have keys, they have probably been doing thisjob longer than you have been born and to pull the wool over their eyes will be extremely difficult. i don't think that would ring true today. we know what the problems and

issues are. for me to come at it from a different perspective, if you look at the situation in wales, and a couple of people were mentioning the inspectorate reports, they have five persons, two including cardiff and swansea are local presence and they received outstanding and the other three presence received good reports. what are cardiff and swansea and other prisons doing differently to receive such high scores? we know what the issues are. for me it is not about blame any more, it is about finding what is working and what is reducing reoffending and what is helping people in prison turned their lives around and let's focus on that because stories like this and like the recent case with lucy letby

become the face of everything wrong with the criminaljustice system and we don't get to see what's right stop i we don't get to see what's right sto ; . , , ., , we don't get to see what's right sto_ ., , , ., , ., stop i have been in phone-ins for decades and _ stop i have been in phone-ins for decades and that _ stop i have been in phone-ins for decades and that is _ stop i have been in phone-ins for decades and that is a _ stop i have been in phone-ins for decades and that is a lot - stop i have been in phone-ins for decades and that is a lot of- stop i have been in phone-ins for. decades and that is a lot of copying and pasting going on but it is shocking every time. with this specific incident, how much do you think the chaos and conditions in wandsworth prison which we are told are particularly bad, the lack of staffing and staff morale, how much might all those factors have contributed to what happened yesterday?— contributed to what happened esterda ? , . ., . yesterday? they will have an impact but if ou yesterday? they will have an impact but if you start _ yesterday? they will have an impact but if you start looking _ yesterday? they will have an impact but if you start looking at _ yesterday? they will have an impact but if you start looking at the - yesterday? they will have an impact but if you start looking at the risk i but if you start looking at the risk level, he is in a local prison, a b category which also holds dangerous

prisoners who might not be category a and of high risk of escape. the fact he is working in the kitchen, working around knives, considering he is suspected of a terrorist offence you would think that would be the last place on earth he would allow someone to work. they are innocent until proven guilty but the evidence seems pretty set on the fact he is guilty. for me it is clearly taking planning, it is quite difficult to have an idea of what was going on in his mind at the time because the crimes season for not majority of people in prison so his mindset will be completely different from someone else's. and who helped him, inside or outside help? there is so much can be done in speculation to the reasons why. we will not find an overnight solution. we will probably end up with kneejerk reactions as we always do.

again lucy letby highlighted that fact. we note there is an experienced staff are not enough staff. he talked about trying to convince the public to spend money on prisons but that is 4.8 billion ring fenced for the building of new prisons. you can take half that money and invested into the education system where evidence suggests children excluded from school are more likely to end up in the criminaljustice system than the general population.— general population. thank you very much indeed- _ general population. thank you very much indeed. bob _ general population. thank you very much indeed. bob neill— general population. thank you very much indeed. bob neill is - general population. thank you very much indeed. bob neill is with i general population. thank you very much indeed. bob neill is with us i much indeed. bob neill is with us now. chair of thejustice committee.

johnin john in croydon, an ex inmate, what do you make of the escape and the manhunt under way and the whole narrative? it manhunt under way and the whole narrative? , ., , ., , ., manhunt under way and the whole narrative? , ., , ., , narrative? it shows that everyone is only human — narrative? it shows that everyone is only human and _ narrative? it shows that everyone is only human and mistakes _ narrative? it shows that everyone is only human and mistakes get i narrative? it shows that everyone is only human and mistakes get made j narrative? it shows that everyone is i only human and mistakes get made by humans and basically if that is not enough staff to look after the prisoners, there will be a slip. i was in a category a prison for a bit of a spell, about six months and it was tight as a drum. to make a mistake like that, let one prisoner out, is a mistake. i mistake like that, let one prisoner out, is a mistake.— out, is a mistake. i not camera checks? lt— out, is a mistake. i not camera checks? it is— out, is a mistake. i not camera checks? it is like _ out, is a mistake. i not camera checks? it is like something i out, is a mistake. i not camera| checks? it is like something out out, is a mistake. i not camera i checks? it is like something out of our carry on _ checks? it is like something out of our carry on movie. _

checks? it is like something out of our carry on movie. there - checks? it is like something out of our carry on movie. there are i checks? it is like something out of our carry on movie. there are no i our carry on movie. there are no camera checks. usually when checking a vehicle you have a mirror to go underneath the vehicle to see if there is something underneath. he has got to physically get under it, are people not looking at screens to check what is going on in every nook and cranny?— and cranny? exactly. , the prisoner i was in, belmarsh, _ and cranny? exactly. , the prisoner i was in, belmarsh, there - and cranny? exactly. , the prisoner i was in, belmarsh, there were i i was in, belmarsh, there were cameras everywhere. —— the prison that i was in. if you put your hand in your pocket you get fooled aside and —— you get taken aside and search. and -- you get taken aside and search. ,, �* ., , , and -- you get taken aside and search. ,, y, , , ., search. siir bob neill. this is a very sighn _ search. siir bob neill. this is a very sighn serious _

search. siir bob neill. this is a very sighn serious matter. i search. siir bob neill. this is a very sighn serious matter. we | search. siir bob neill. this is a i very sighn serious matter. we have to have an investigation. the number of escapes has gone down in recent years and we had fewer escapes in the last ten years than the preceding years. we need to know what preceding years. we need to know wha- . ., ., , what what went wrong here. there has been millions — what what went wrong here. there has been millions invested _ what what went wrong here. there has been millions invested in _ what what went wrong here. there has been millions invested in gate - what what went wrong here. there has been millions invested in gate and i been millions invested in gate and prison— been millions invested in gate and prison security. why did it fail and that instance? there is a question of why— that instance? there is a question of why he — that instance? there is a question of why he was in category b rather than the _ of why he was in category b rather than the category a prison, belmarsh i’ilht than the category a prison, belmarsh right next— than the category a prison, belmarsh right next to the court where he was she to _ right next to the court where he was she to stand — right next to the court where he was she to stand trial. it is not the highest — she to stand trial. it is not the highest category of terror offences which _ highest category of terror offences which would automatically go to the crown _ which would automatically go to the crown court but still we need to know _ crown court but still we need to know why — crown court but still we need to know why the categorisation was done, _ know why the categorisation was done, was — know why the categorisation was done, was because of lack of space in belmarsh?— done, was because of lack of space in belmarsh?_ the i done, was because of lack of space | in belmarsh?_ the two in belmarsh? lack of staff? the two to in belmarsh? lack of staff? the two

go together- — in belmarsh? lack of staff? the two go together- too — in belmarsh? lack of staff? the two go together. too many _ in belmarsh? lack of staff? the two go together. too many prisons i in belmarsh? lack of staff? the two go together. too many prisons are i go together. too many prisons are overcrowded and that is a real shortage — overcrowded and that is a real shortage of staff and experienced staff as _ shortage of staff and experienced staff as some of the callers have said _ staff as some of the callers have said we — staff as some of the callers have said. we had an inquiry at the end of last— said. we had an inquiry at the end of last year— said. we had an inquiry at the end of last yearand said. we had an inquiry at the end of last year and the beginning of this year— of last year and the beginning of this year about prison strategy. those _ this year about prison strategy. those cameras have to be monitored and you _ those cameras have to be monitored and you would expect a mirror run under— and you would expect a mirror run under the — and you would expect a mirror run under the van and you would expect a mirror run underthe van on and you would expect a mirror run under the van on its way out in the same _ under the van on its way out in the same way— under the van on its way out in the same way there is a dome above where you can _ same way there is a dome above where you can look— same way there is a dome above where you can look down and see if anyone is on _ you can look down and see if anyone is on top _ you can look down and see if anyone is on top of— you can look down and see if anyone is on top of the van. was not someone _ is on top of the van. was not someone there are not enough people because _ someone there are not enough people because somebody did not do the job properly— because somebody did not do the job properly or— because somebody did not do the job properly or somebody was an experienced or was there some assistance and collusion given to him? _ assistance and collusion given to him? all— assistance and collusion given to him? all those have to be thoroughly investigated and it seems we have to have an _ investigated and it seems we have to have an independent element in the investigation so i hope the justice

secretary— investigation so i hope the justice secretary will ask the chief inspector of prisons so you simply don't _ inspector of prisons so you simply don't have — inspector of prisons so you simply don't have the prison service management marking the own paperwork. | management marking the own paperwork-— management marking the own paperwork. management marking the own nnaerwork. ., ., , ., ., paperwork. i read some of this area and will give _ paperwork. i read some of this area and will give you — paperwork. i read some of this area and will give you a _ paperwork. i read some of this area and will give you a summary. it i paperwork. i read some of this area| and will give you a summary. it says about wandsworth prison on the government website, it sounds like a final place for rehabilitation and talks about personal development in custody and health and well—being. —— fine, old. mental health and sexual health and managing difficult emotions and gymnasiums in sports halls and libraries and classrooms and workshops. speaking to people on this programme who were in wandsworth, they say that is a work of fiction. i’m wandsworth, they say that is a work of fiction. �* . . . of fiction. i'm afraid all the evidence — of fiction. i'm afraid all the evidence we _ of fiction. i'm afraid all the evidence we have - of fiction. i'm afraid all the evidence we have had i of fiction. i'm afraid all the i evidence we have had about a of fiction. i'm afraid all the _ evidence we have had about a number of our—

evidence we have had about a number of our local— evidence we have had about a number of our local prisons such as wandsworth is they are usually old victorian— wandsworth is they are usually old victorian buildings with a mix of remand — victorian buildings with a mix of remand and other prisoners are some of the _ remand and other prisoners are some of the worst— remand and other prisoners are some of the worst in the system and i think— of the worst in the system and i think the — of the worst in the system and i think the prison service has to be much _ think the prison service has to be much more — think the prison service has to be much more open.— think the prison service has to be much more oen. . , ., much more open. that is a government website and _ much more open. that is a government website and it — much more open. that is a government website and it is _ much more open. that is a government website and it is not _ much more open. that is a government website and it is not true. _ much more open. that is a government website and it is not true. i _ much more open. that is a government website and it is not true. i think- website and it is not true. i think the information _ website and it is not true. i think the information is _ website and it is not true. i think the information is an _ website and it is not true. i think the information is an aspiration i website and it is not true. i think. the information is an aspiration not met in_ the information is an aspiration not met in practice and we need to have a better— met in practice and we need to have a better grip. i have long had a concern — a better grip. i have long had a concern the top management of the prison— concern the top management of the prison service is not fully in touch _ prison service is not fully in touch. the people you have heard from _ touch. the people you have heard from would — touch. the people you have heard from would fit the experience my committee has had over the years as the problems on the ground and that is a structural problem we need to address— is a structural problem we need to address once we have sorted out the immediate _ address once we have sorted out the immediate issue of what went wrong here _ immediate issue of what went wrong here. �* «a , immediate issue of what went wrong here. �* , ., here. peter bleksley, former detective _ here. peter bleksley, former detective in _ here. peter bleksley, former detective in the _ here. peter bleksley, former detective in the metropolitan here. peter bleksley, former i detective in the metropolitan police and author. what do you make of the

manhunt, what will be happening? i would be interested to know if this was a spur of the moment opportunist type of escape or one with a degree of planning and involved a network of planning and involved a network of support for him once he managed to get outside of the prison confines because that will have quite an impact on the way the hunt progresses. if this is a lonely man surviving on his weights and foraging on bends and needs clothing and the like, it would be highly likely other crimes might be committed like shoplifting and crimes like that. a person doing that sort of stuff will get on the radar with cctv and possibly store staff and the like. if however there is another scenario whereby this was preplanned with elements of collusion from whoever that came from, and khalife is supported by

criminal and terrorist network who will feed him and give him clothing and shelter and cash and access to passports and the like that is a more difficult challenge. what passports and the like that is a more difficult challenge. what kind of olice more difficult challenge. what kind of police operation _ more difficult challenge. what kind of police operation will _ more difficult challenge. what kind of police operation will be - more difficult challenge. what kind of police operation will be under i of police operation will be under way? of police operation will be under wa ? , , , ., way? this will be huge. they have somethin: way? this will be huge. they have something to _ way? this will be huge. they have something to work _ way? this will be huge. they have something to work on _ way? this will be huge. they have something to work on as - way? this will be huge. they have something to work on as there i way? this will be huge. they have | something to work on as there was quite thorough investigation into khalife which led to his charges which is not stood trial for yet so innocent until proved guilty. inquiries into his family and networks and those who would speak to him and those who may have radicalised them if it is proven he was radicalised. all those inquiries have already been done so they will have already been done so they will have that intelligence at the fingertips in terms of who could support him in this kind of scenario. support him in this kind of scenario-— support him in this kind of

scenario. ~ ., ., ., scenario. we might get a good insiaht scenario. we might get a good insight on _ scenario. we might get a good insight on that _ scenario. we might get a good insight on that from _ scenario. we might get a good insight on that from dennis i scenario. we might get a good| insight on that from dennis and catherine, a former prison officer. —— in kettering. would he have taken this opportunity would he have had help? b. this opportunity would he have had hel? �* , w' this opportunity would he have had heln ? �* , . ~' . ., , this opportunity would he have had hel? , , ., help? a delivery truck comes in and the drivers are _ help? a delivery truck comes in and the drivers are checked _ help? a delivery truck comes in and the drivers are checked and - help? a delivery truck comes in and the drivers are checked and the i the drivers are checked and the truck checked and it is taken through to another area where it is controlled by two prison officers are 0sgs. the prisoners will come out and help unload the truck and the person in charge of the kitchen once the doors are locked must radio the radio room to see what the numbers are. they should be correct and the radio room tells the people escorting the truck you can now move

back to the sterile area with it is searched and once they say it has been cleared to do is let out of the prison. there has been a breakdown of procedure here, nothing more, i'm sorry to say. it has all started from the kitchen. if he has got under the truck and the kitchen has set our numbers are correct, the guy should have been picked up when he went through the neck sterile area before the truck is released so it has been a failure of procedure. it could well have been a split second decision by him? flit could well have been a split second decision by him?— decision by him? of course. there are problems _ decision by him? of course. there are problems within _ decision by him? of course. there are problems within the _ decision by him? of course. there are problems within the prison i are problems within the prison service, one of the things i would say is 0sgs our poorly trained and we have 0sgs there who have done up to 20 years and experience prison

officers down to the 0sgs. i was the same and for seven years became one of the 0sgs. i same and for seven years became one of the osgs-— of the osgs. i think you will be interested _ of the osgs. i think you will be interested to _ of the osgs. i think you will be interested to hear _ of the osgs. i think you will be interested to hear our - of the osgs. i think you will be interested to hear our next i of the osgs. i think you will be i interested to hear our next collar, gary north london, who escapes from wormwood scrubs in 1995. what happened ?. i wormwood scrubs in 1995. what happened ?-_ wormwood scrubs in 1995. what ha--ened?. . ., ., . happened ?. i cut a hole the fence and put a ladder— happened ?. i cut a hole the fence and put a ladder up _ happened ?. i cut a hole the fence and put a ladder up the _ happened ?. i cut a hole the fence and put a ladder up the wall i happened ?. i cut a hole the fence and put a ladder up the wall and l and put a ladder up the wall and escape — and put a ladder up the wall and escape several months. is and put a ladder up the wall and escape several months.- and put a ladder up the wall and escape several months. is easy is that? not that _ escape several months. is easy is that? not that easy, _ escape several months. is easy is that? not that easy, there - escape several months. is easy is that? not that easy, there was i that? not that easy, there was months of _ that? not that easy, there was months of planning _ that? not that easy, there was months of planning went - that? not that easy, there was months of planning went into l that? not that easy, there was | months of planning went into it that? not that easy, there was - months of planning went into it and i was _ months of planning went into it and i was a _ months of planning went into it and i was a young man then. i am an old man now _ i was a young man then. i am an old man now i— i was a young man then. i am an old man now. i can't believe what is going _ man now. i can't believe what is going on— man now. i can't believe what is going on today and that he is not

category— going on today and that he is not category ar category in belmarsh. how long — category ar category in belmarsh. how long were you on the run? seven months. it how long were you on the run? seven months- it was _ how long were you on the run? seven months. it was scary. _ how long were you on the run? seven months. it was scary. you _ how long were you on the run? seven months. it was scary. you never - how long were you on the run? seven months. it was scary. you never know what _ months. it was scary. you never know what is _ months. it was scary. you never know what is round — months. it was scary. you never know what is round the corner. i am released — what is round the corner. i am released slow and been home for years— released slow and been home for years and — released slow and been home for years and it is all in the past. surely— years and it is all in the past. surely the _ years and it is all in the past. surely the staff and governors will -et surely the staff and governors will get the _ surely the staff and governors will get the blame but they don't send the prisoners there. with his army training _ the prisoners there. with his army training and terrorism connected surely— training and terrorism connected surely should have been category a at least _ surely should have been category a at least i_ surely should have been category a at least. i have worked in the kitchens _ at least. i have worked in the kitchens in _ at least. i have worked in the kitchens in wandsworth and there are loads coming in and out every day. give the _ loads coming in and out every day. give the job— loads coming in and out every day. give the job is too low category prisoners _ give the job is too low category prisoners— prisoners. what do you think happened? _ prisoners. what do you think happened? the _ prisoners. what do you think happened? the lorry - prisoners. what do you think happened? the lorry is - prisoners. what do you thinki happened? the lorry is there prisoners. what do you think - happened? the lorry is there and he is there, then what? in happened? the lorry is there and he is there, then what?— is there, then what? in my opinion i think there — is there, then what? in my opinion i think there is _ is there, then what? in my opinion i think there is a _ is there, then what? in my opinion i think there is a little _ is there, then what? in my opinion i think there is a little planning - think there is a little planning gone — think there is a little planning

gone into it and hasten the opportunity and thought about it and confident _ opportunity and thought about it and confident. a few years ago my mate did the _ confident. a few years ago my mate did the same thing at parkhurst and went out— did the same thing at parkhurst and went out the same way but someone hasn't _ went out the same way but someone hasn't done — went out the same way but someone hasn't done thatjob. they went out the same way but someone hasn't done that job. they put glass and under— hasn't done that job. they put glass and under seat matters. presumably not and under seat matters. presumably got underwritten _ and under seat matters. presumably got underwritten thought _ and under seat matters. presumably got underwritten thought they - and under seat matters. presumably got underwritten thought they would still have a look. he got underwritten thought they would still have a look.— still have a look. he took his chance- _ still have a look. he took his chance- he _ still have a look. he took his chance. he could _ still have a look. he took his chance. he could probably. still have a look. he took his i chance. he could probably see still have a look. he took his - chance. he could probably see the -ate chance. he could probably see the gate and _ chance. he could probably see the gate and then see if they are doing the checks — gate and then see if they are doing the checks. you have so many prisoners~ _ the checks. you have so many prisoners. about 14 years ago the retired _ prisoners. about 14 years ago the retired a — prisoners. about 14 years ago the retired a lot of the older men who had been — retired a lot of the older men who had been in — retired a lot of the older men who had been in the service many years and brought in for the same wages younger— and brought in for the same wages younger people who had no experience stop versus _ younger people who had no experience stop versus how the mistakes happen, they took— stop versus how the mistakes happen, they took all the experience out the prison— they took all the experience out the prison system staff wise. if you

take _ prison system staff wise. if you take any— prison system staff wise. if you take any professional out of the system — take any professional out of the system and the younger people in without _ system and the younger people in without the cleanest and how to deal without the cleanest and how to deal with things, i have serious health issues _ with things, i have serious health issues and — with things, i have serious health issues and you see some horrible things— issues and you see some horrible things on— issues and you see some horrible things on there. we issues and you see some horrible things on there.— things on there. we were talking about that and _ things on there. we were talking about that and some _ things on there. we were talking about that and some people - things on there. we were talking about that and some people say| about that and some people say there's not enough support and emotional support for people who have seen some pretty grim stuff. staff and inmates, we have had people — staff and inmates, we have had people cutting down and you never forget _ people cutting down and you never forget that sort of thing. it is difficult — forget that sort of thing. it is difficult to deal with. the staff suffer— difficult to deal with. the staff suffer the same as we do. and the rison suffer the same as we do. and the prison officer _ suffer the same as we do. and the prison officer who _ suffer the same as we do. and the prison officer who was _ suffer the same as we do. and the prison officer who was tied - suffer the same as we do. and the prison officer who was tied up - suffer the same as we do. and the prison officer who was tied up in l prison officer who was tied up in your case, you must think about that

as well. so your case, you must think about that as well. 50 might i got acquitted for that. as well. 50 might i got acquitted forthat. do as well. 50 might i got acquitted for that. do you think you might about help in this situation? i about help in this situation? i think he is alone and has taken the chance _ think he is alone and has taken the chance you — think he is alone and has taken the chance. you might get help when she is out _ chance. you might get help when she is out but _ chance. you might get help when she is out but i _ chance. you might get help when she is out but i think he hasjust gone for it _ is out but i think he hasjust gone for it -- — is out but i think he hasjust gone for it. —— when he has got out. it is human— for it. —— when he has got out. it is human nature to think about it every— is human nature to think about it every dav — viewers to bbc two and bbc news are leaving us now.

live from london. this is bbc news. the hunt continues for a former soldier accused of terrorism — who escaped from prison in london by clinging to the underside of a delivery van. in december last year, only seven members of staff turned up for a night shift to look after 1,500 inmates. after a russian missile strike kills 17 people in eastern ukraine — the kremlin says it has downed several ukrainian drones near moscow overnight the british mp chris pincher is to resign — after losing an appeal against a suspension over groping allegations. and as the civil war in yemen grinds on —

we have a special report from orla guerin about