and which party is going to put a guarantee of the triple lock in its next general election manifesto, if any? ben is here. i understand some in government are already making the case for a less generous uprating than the conventional triple lock

calculation amid signs its political support might be evaporating. we'll talk to a retired nurse who relies on the state pension, and we'll speak to two former government minsters, one who believes the triple lock has to be ditched now, or the one who says it's got to stay, for now. also tonight, the british passengers and cabin crew used by saddam hussain as human shields during the first gulf war 33 years ago tell newsnight exclusively why they're suing the government and ba. they say both allowed their plane to land in kuwait after the invasion had begun. just getting this far and having our story told, having programmes like newsnight picking it up, is enormous, it's enormous. it's somebody taking us seriously, somebody listening to us and believing in us. and in eastern libya, a vast tragedy is unfolding. thousands have been killed, thousands more people are missing after devastating floods.

we'll bring you the latest. and the head of the anti—monarchy group republic, arrested on the day of king charles�* coronation, is here to tell us why he's taking legal action against the met. good evening. since 2010, pensioners in this country have automatically got a good deal when it comes to pension rises because of the so called triple lock promise made by conservative pm david cameron — a promise that none of mr cameron's many successors have dared to tinker with. the pension�*s currently around £203.85 a week per person. but is that promise going to be broken ahead of the next election and will the triple lock appear in any party's general election manifesto? well, today there were signs of uncertainty from both government and opposition on this issue, with labour's deputy leader, angela rayner, refusing to confirm a commitment to it, and later the pensions secretary seemingly backing away from a long—term promise, after this programme reported concerns amongst some in government

about the cost of honouring the triple lock. it was ben who first reported that story from inside whitehall this morning. so what did we think was happening to pensions next year? let's remind ourselves how the pension triple lock works. it uprates the state pension by whatever is the highest — inflation, wage growth, or 2.5%. of the three, wages are rising the fastest at the moment. here are the figures for the annual growth of the three months tojuly which is the traditional time period used — up by 8.5% according to the latest official figures released this morning. so does that mean the state pension will rise by 8.5% next year? well, not necessarily. newsnight got wind that the government is unhappy with that figure because it is distorted by bonuses paid to nhs workers over the summer as a way of ending strike action and they argued that if you

stripped out those bonuses you would get to a figure more like 8%, possibly less. that might not sound like a particularly large reduction but for the public finance that it amounts to a roughly £600 million saving which would be welcome to a chancellor who is of course still dealing with very strict public finances and is under pressure from many to find some tax cuts ahead of the next election. and is well that would come at the cost of pensioners, around £50 per year as a result of doing that and at a time when many argue that the state pension is still relatively low relative to some of our peer economies. so can they tinker with the triple lock? the economies. so can they tinker with the triple lock?— the triple lock? the legislation re . uires the triple lock? the legislation requires the — the triple lock? the legislation requires the pensions - the triple lock? the legislation | requires the pensions secretary the triple lock? the legislation . requires the pensions secretary to race to the general level of earnings in such a manner that he sees fit but the danger for the government is they are accused of moving the goalposts. they have

always used the unadjusted total wage growth figures in the past to calculate the uprating so in other words this could be presented as a breach of the spirit of the triple lock but there was a bigger context here as well, a question of fairness. the government has signalled it might not raise working age benefits in line inflation next year when she would be controversial in itself in a cost of living squeeze but keeping pensioners an increase of 8.5% at the same point would act as about intergenerational fairness among some. this shows the impact of the policy since 2010 on those aged over 60 and you can see it is roughly eight £600 average increase, ...— it is roughly eight £600 average increase, ..._ and . it is roughly eight £600 average i increase, ..._ and look increase, every year. and look at those below _ increase, ... every year. and look at those below aged _ increase, every year. and look at those below aged 60 _ increase, every year. and look at those below aged 60 and - increase, every year. and look at those below aged 60 and you l increase, every year. and look - at those below aged 60 and you could see £800 average decrease due to freezes on things like working aged benefits. ., ,

freezes on things like working aged benefits. . , ., , , freezes on things like working aged benefits. . , . i, ., benefits. that is really stuck, that difference _ benefits. that is really stuck, that difference. and _ benefits. that is really stuck, that difference. and what _ benefits. that is really stuck, that difference. and what is _ benefits. that is really stuck, that| difference. and what is concerning many expert _ difference. and what is concerning many expert increasing _ difference. and what is concerning many expert increasing is - difference. and what is concerning many expert increasing is the - many expert increasing is the long—term cost of the triple lock. 0f long—term cost of the triple lock. of the policy has some potentially very big implications for the public finances. of the institute for fiscal studies recently estimated it could increase government spending on the state pension 2050, thanks to the rather haphazard way it works and that is a figure that is adjusted for inflation. as you mention, neither labour nor the conservatives committed to keeping the commitment in their manifestos and indeed, we can listen to what the current pensions secretary mel stride said to us earlier. in the very, very long term, you are absolutely right, it is not sustainable. of course what i am dealing with is now. and where we stand at the moment is we remain committed to the triple lock and that is the path that we will be taking. as to the future and after future general elections and so on and so forth, who knows? but that is the position we are in at present. which raises the question —

is the end of this totemic policy of the past 13 years coming closer? and whether that is something to worry about or to welcome. thank you very much- — worry about or to welcome. thank you very much- let's _ worry about or to welcome. thank you very much. let's race _ worry about or to welcome. thank you very much. let's race some _ worry about or to welcome. thank you very much. let's race some of - worry about or to welcome. thank you very much. let's race some of those l very much. let's race some of those issues. let's talk to thabani sithole who worked as a nurse until 2019 until she retired aged 70. also with us, the former lib dems' pensions minister steve webb — the architect of the triple lock. he says there will come a point where the policy is not sustainable. and former conservative treasury minster and former ex—work and pensions secretary david gauke says it's already become too expensive and should be ditched. thabani, you're tha bani, you're comfortable thabani, you're comfortable with me explain to our audience that you receive the state pension, the attendance allowance and the pension credit. what is it like for you to get by on a weekly basis? it is a stru: ale get by on a weekly basis? it is a struggle these _ get by on a weekly basis? it is a struggle these days _

get by on a weekly basis? it is a struggle these days because - struggle these days because everything goes up. every week you find that the prices are not the same as last week. so sometimes you find that things have gone up by 25p or 80p and sometimes a 70p so you find the £20 you have does not go far. and you have to actually make a shopping list, you cannotjust pick up shopping list, you cannotjust pick up what you used to pick up before and you just have to be very careful and you just have to be very careful and i have heard of people as well taking the shopping stuff and checking the prices at home with the receipt and wondering, 0k, we used to have £100 for a month of shopping and all of a sudden it has gone. and half of the stuff is not even their. and your weekly shop used to be about £20 and now you reckon it's about £20 and now you reckon it's about 50? it about £20 and now you reckon it's about 50? . , about £20 and now you reckon it's about 50? .,, ., , about £20 and now you reckon it's about 50? ., , ., :: about 50? it has gone up about £50 now. so about 50? it has gone up about £50 nova so this — about 50? it has gone up about £50 now. so this talk _ about 50? it has gone up about £50 now. so this talk about _ about 50? it has gone up about £50 now. so this talk about potentially l now. so this talk about potentially the state pension _ now. so this talk about potentially the state pension not _ now. so this talk about potentially the state pension not rising -

now. so this talk about potentially the state pension not rising as - now. so this talk about potentially | the state pension not rising as high as wages would mean you are losing around £50 a year, what effect would that have on you?— that have on you? devastating effect, that have on you? devastating effect. very — that have on you? devastating effect, very bad. _ that have on you? devastating effect, very bad. and - that have on you? devastating effect, very bad. and the - that have on you? devastating - effect, very bad. and the problem is, you just don't know what you're going to find when you go to the supermarkets. because like i said, from week to week, the prices are not the same. what you found in the last week, you think you will buy this week, you get a shock and you think, 0k, this week, you get a shock and you think, ok, i have heard people talking about inflation, and you find something that was a kilogram before is now 800 grams and the packet has gone bigger and the price has gone bigger as well which is actually very unfair and frustrating.— actually very unfair and frustrating. actually very unfair and frustratina . , actually very unfair and frustratina. , , ., ., frustrating. there might be some who sa £50 a frustrating. there might be some who say £50 a year. _ frustrating. there might be some who say £50 a year. it's — frustrating. there might be some who say £50 a year, it's about _ frustrating. there might be some who say £50 a year, it's about £1 - frustrating. there might be some who say £50 a year, it's about £1 a - say £50 a year, it's about £1 a week, it's not that much. that is for rich people. _ week, it's not that much. that is for rich people. and _ week, it's not that much. that is for rich people. and that - week, it's not that much. that is for rich people. and that is - week, it's not that much. that is for rich people. and that is why. for rich people. and that is why some people actually work until they

drop. some people actually work until they dro -. ., some people actually work until they dro, ., ., “ some people actually work until they dro, ., ., 4' ,., some people actually work until they dro. ., ., ~' i. :: drop. you worked until you were 70 and ou drop. you worked until you were 70 and you were _ drop. you worked until you were 70 and you were forced _ drop. you worked until you were 70 and you were forced to _ drop. you worked until you were 70 and you were forced to stop - drop. you worked until you were 70 | and you were forced to stop because you had osteoarthritis? yes. and you were forced to stop because you had osteoarthritis? yes, because some of my — you had osteoarthritis? yes, because some of my colleagues _ you had osteoarthritis? yes, because some of my colleagues are _ you had osteoarthritis? yes, because some of my colleagues are still- some of my colleagues are still working even now and some agencies are calling me to come and work because they are short staffed and they know the way i used to work as well. but when i retired, actually joint the commercial agencies and it was looking very good and i was glad i stopped working because i couldn't run as fast as i used to with the osteoarthritis after i broke my legs in 2012. and then the covid struck and they were the lockdowns and there was no work and i got sick as well. and i havejust had my operations on my knees, bilateral surgery, and recovering. thanks to independent age, my financial situation has actually become better because they sorted out my attendance allowance and pension

credit where i can get some tax refunds and deductions. but some people don't even know there is help out there. ~ ,,., , ., out there. absolutely, there are many pensioners _ out there. absolutely, there are many pensioners who _ out there. absolutely, there are many pensioners who do - out there. absolutely, there are many pensioners who do not. out there. absolutely, there are i many pensioners who do not claim pension credit and are eligible. i will bring in steve webb and david gauke. you both supported triple lock, it was a vote winner. it feels like the mood around it is changing so what's going on? i like the mood around it is changing so what's going on?— like the mood around it is changing so what's going on? i think what we have seen over _ so what's going on? i think what we have seen over the _ so what's going on? i think what we have seen over the last _ so what's going on? i think what we have seen over the last 13 _ so what's going on? i think what we have seen over the last 13 years - so what's going on? i think what we have seen over the last 13 years is l have seen over the last 13 years is the state — have seen over the last 13 years is the state pension has risen compared to average _ the state pension has risen compared to average earnings as a proportion so going _ to average earnings as a proportion so going back to 2010, the state pension— so going back to 2010, the state pension was the equivalent of 16% of average earnings and it's now 25% which _ average earnings and it's now 25% which is _ average earnings and it's now 25% which is pretty much as high as it's ever been— which is pretty much as high as it's ever been in— which is pretty much as high as it's ever been in this country. and you also have — ever been in this country. and you also have to — ever been in this country. and you also have to look at the context of the public— also have to look at the context of the public finances. we know the public— the public finances. we know the public services are under scrutiny, we know— public services are under scrutiny, we know we — public services are under scrutiny, we know we will lose tax revenue in certain _ we know we will lose tax revenue in certain areas—

we know we will lose tax revenue in certain areas like fuel duty is about— certain areas like fuel duty is about to _ certain areas like fuel duty is about to disappear, electronic vehicles — about to disappear, electronic vehicles coming in. you look at the pressures— vehicles coming in. you look at the pressures on — vehicles coming in. you look at the pressures on defence spending which has generally been held back over recent— has generally been held back over recent decades, that will go up. and then you _ recent decades, that will go up. and then you apply an ageing population, then you apply an ageing population, the demographics moving towards more people _ the demographics moving towards more people who _ the demographics moving towards more people who will live longer but require — people who will live longer but require more health and social, the public— require more health and social, the public finances are under enormous strain— public finances are under enormous strain and _ public finances are under enormous strain and we will have to make some really— strain and we will have to make some really quite _ strain and we will have to make some really quite tough choices. what strain and we will have to make some really quite tough choices.— really quite tough choices. what i want to say _ really quite tough choices. what i want to say to — really quite tough choices. what i want to say to you _ really quite tough choices. what i want to say to you both, - really quite tough choices. what i want to say to you both, because| really quite tough choices. what i - want to say to you both, because you both backed it, you were a minister, you will work and pensions secretary, you created this expensive policy. it was always going to become unsustainable. it has become more expensive than i think— has become more expensive than i think any— has become more expensive than i think any of— has become more expensive than i think any of us thought because of the volatility... but think any of us thought because of the volatility. . .— think any of us thought because of the volatility... but the option was alwa s the volatility... but the option was always there _ the volatility... but the option was always there it's _ the volatility... but the option was always there it's worth _ the volatility... but the option was always there it's worth going - the volatility... but the option was always there it's worth going back| always there it's worth going back to 2010 and white was created in the first place and it was to try and fix 30 years of decline point for 30 years the pension had been linked just to inflation a problem with

thatis just to inflation a problem with that is you have the 75p increase on your ponder that's what i argue that it still needs to rise relative to average wage, we still have one of the lowest state pensions in the west ponder why can't a prosperous nation, we are not as rich as we once were, but relatively prosperous... but as david said, the state pension is back up to 25% of average earnings which is where it was when margaret thatcher's cuts came into thatjob done, isn't it? no, because if you take the average wage, _ no, because if you take the average wage, do— no, because if you take the average wage, do you — no, because if you take the average wage, do you want _ no, because if you take the average wage, do you want to _ no, because if you take the average wage, do you want to fall _ no, because if you take the average wage, do you want to fall to - no, because if you take the average wage, do you want to fall to a - wage, do you want to fall to a quarter— wage, do you want to fall to a quarter of— wage, do you want to fall to a quarter of that _ wage, do you want to fall to a quarter of that when - wage, do you want to fall to a quarter of that when you - wage, do you want to fall to a . quarter of that when you retire? wage, do you want to fall to a - quarter of that when you retire? 0f quarter of that when you retire? of course _ quarter of that when you retire? of course not — quarter of that when you retire? of course not so — quarter of that when you retire? of course not so the _ quarter of that when you retire? of course not so the average - quarter of that when you retire? of course not so the average person l course not so the average person would — course not so the average person would fall— course not so the average person would fall three _ course not so the average person would fall three quarters - course not so the average person would fall three quarters of - course not so the average person would fall three quarters of theirl would fall three quarters of their income — would fall three quarters of their income when _ would fall three quarters of their income when they— would fall three quarters of their income when they retire - would fall three quarters of their income when they retire unless. would fall three quarters of their. income when they retire unless they have a _ income when they retire unless they have a private — income when they retire unless they have a private pension _ income when they retire unless they have a private pension on _ income when they retire unless they have a private pension on top - income when they retire unless they have a private pension on top and i have a private pension on top and lots of— have a private pension on top and lots of people _ have a private pension on top and lots of people in _ have a private pension on top and lots of people in future _ have a private pension on top and lots of people in future it - have a private pension on top and lots of people in future it will - have a private pension on top and lots of people in future it will not| lots of people in future it will not have _ lots of people in future it will not have big — lots of people in future it will not have big private _ lots of people in future it will not have big private pensions - lots of people in future it will not have big private pensions to- lots of people in future it will not have big private pensions to thel have big private pensions to the state _ have big private pensions to the state pension— have big private pensions to the state pension is— have big private pensions to the state pension is essentially- state pension is essentially essential. _ state pension is essentially essential, especially- state pension is essentially essential, especially for. state pension is essentially. essential, especially for many state pension is essentially— essential, especially for many women because _ essential, especially for many women because they — essential, especially for many women because they tend _ essential, especially for many women because they tend to _ essential, especially for many women because they tend to have _ essential, especially for many women because they tend to have smaller- because they tend to have smaller private _ because they tend to have smaller private pensions. _ because they tend to have smaller private pensions. a _ because they tend to have smaller private pensions. a lot— because they tend to have smaller private pensions. a lot of- because they tend to have smaller private pensions. a lot of men - because they tend to have smallerl private pensions. a lot of men who david _ private pensions. a lot of men who david and — private pensions. a lot of men who david and i— private pensions. a lot of men who david and i have _ private pensions. a lot of men who david and i have the _ private pensions. a lot of men who david and i have the luxury - private pensions. a lot of men who david and i have the luxury of - private pensions. a lot of men who david and i have the luxury of a - david and i have the luxury of a level— david and i have the luxury of a

level of— david and i have the luxury of a level of the _ david and i have the luxury of a level of the state _ david and i have the luxury of a level of the state pension - david and i have the luxury of a level of the state pension does| david and i have the luxury of a . level of the state pension does not matter— level of the state pension does not matter to — level of the state pension does not matter to people _ level of the state pension does not matter to people like _ level of the state pension does not matter to people like us— level of the state pension does not matter to people like us but- level of the state pension does not matter to people like us but for. level of the state pension does not matter to people like us but for a i matter to people like us but for a lot of— matter to people like us but for a lot of people. _ matter to people like us but for a lot of people. as— matter to people like us but for a lot of people, as thabani - matter to people like us but for a lot of people, as thabani said - matter to people like us but for a lot of people, as thabani said it. lot of people, as thabani said it really— lot of people, as thabani said it really matters. _ lot of people, as thabani said it really matters.— lot of people, as thabani said it really matters. and going back to this oint really matters. and going back to this point on _ really matters. and going back to this point on priorities, _ really matters. and going back to this point on priorities, it - really matters. and going back to this point on priorities, it would l this point on priorities, it would be great — this point on priorities, it would be great if— this point on priorities, it would be great if we could do more but some _ be great if we could do more but some really tough choices here and secondlym — some really tough choices here and secondly... fire some really tough choices here and secondly- - -— some really tough choices here and secondly... are you sick and drop it before the — secondly... are you sick and drop it before the election? _ secondly... are you sick and drop it before the election? to _ secondly... are you sick and drop it before the election? to be - secondly... are you sick and drop it before the election? to be honest, | before the election? to be honest, because earnings _ before the election? to be honest, because earnings are _ before the election? to be honest, because earnings are going - before the election? to be honest, because earnings are going up - before the election? to be honest, | because earnings are going up quite a lot at— because earnings are going up quite a lot at the — because earnings are going up quite a lot at the moment anyway, i certainly— a lot at the moment anyway, i certainly think we should keep it aligned — certainly think we should keep it aligned with earnings and protect people _ aligned with earnings and protect people from inflation every year but io people from inflation every year but go up _ people from inflation every year but go up with— people from inflation every year but go up with earnings on average, i don't _ go up with earnings on average, i don't expect there to be sudden movement and politically it's very difficult — movement and politically it's very difficult. . ., ., , . movement and politically it's very difficult-_ very i difficult. electoral suicide. very difficult. electoral suicide. very difficult. i don't— difficult. electoral suicide. very difficult. i don't expect - difficult. electoral suicide. very difficult. i don't expect any - difficult. idon't expect any political— difficult. i don't expect any political party to do it unless you can reach — political party to do it unless you can reach some kind of consensus over— can reach some kind of consensus over this — can reach some kind of consensus overthis. but can reach some kind of consensus over this. but if we believe the priority— over this. but if we believe the priority with the public finances, with all— priority with the public finances, with all the difficulties we face, should — with all the difficulties we face, should be increasing the state pension, — should be increasing the state pension, let's do it in a proper declared —

pension, let's do it in a proper declared outright weight rather than have some sort of haphazard system that depends on inflation being higher— that depends on inflation being higher at one year, earnings being higher— higher at one year, earnings being higher year, 2.5% being higher at one year, earnings being higheryear, 2.5% being higherthan both another year. that is not a systematic— both another year. that is not a systematic way of addressing the issue _ systematic way of addressing the issue which is white there is great deal of— issue which is white there is great deal of uncertainty but coming back to the _ deal of uncertainty but coming back to the ifs _ deal of uncertainty but coming back to the ifs projections are potentially £45 billion... that is astonishing- — potentially £45 billion... that is astonishing. that _ potentially £45 billion... that is astonishing. that a _ potentially £45 billion... that is astonishing. that a quarter - potentially £45 billion... that is astonishing. that a quarter of i potentially £45 billion... that is astonishing. that a quarter of a | astonishing. that a quarter of a centu , astonishing. that a quarter of a century. it's — astonishing. that a quarter of a century. it's a _ astonishing. that a quarter of a century, it's a ridiculous - astonishing. that a quarter of a century, it's a ridiculous time i century, it's a ridiculous time horizon, _ century, it's a ridiculous time horizon, if— century, it's a ridiculous time horizon, if you _ century, it's a ridiculous time horizon, if you think- century, it's a ridiculous time horizon, if you think five - century, it's a ridiculous time horizon, if you think five or . century, it's a ridiculous time i horizon, if you think five or ten years. — horizon, if you think five or ten years. that's _ horizon, if you think five or ten years, that's the _ horizon, if you think five or ten years, that's the length - horizon, if you think five or ten years, that's the length of - horizon, if you think five or ten| years, that's the length of time that is— years, that's the length of time that is legitimate _ years, that's the length of time that is legitimate to _ years, that's the length of time that is legitimate to keep - years, that's the length of time that is legitimate to keep it- years, that's the length of time i that is legitimate to keep it going. nobody— that is legitimate to keep it going. nobody is — that is legitimate to keep it going. nobody is talking _ that is legitimate to keep it going. nobody is talking about _ that is legitimate to keep it going. nobody is talking about taking - that is legitimate to keep it going. nobody is talking about taking it l that is legitimate to keep it going. | nobody is talking about taking it to the middle — nobody is talking about taking it to the middle of— nobody is talking about taking it to the middle of the _ nobody is talking about taking it to the middle of the century- nobody is talking about taking it to the middle of the century and - nobody is talking about taking it to the middle of the century and the i the middle of the century and the recently— the middle of the century and the recently triple _ the middle of the century and the recently triple lock _ the middle of the century and the recently triple lock came - the middle of the century and the recently triple lock came in - the middle of the century and the recently triple lock came in was . the middle of the century and the i recently triple lock came in was so that i_ recently triple lock came in was so that i didn't — recently triple lock came in was so that i didn't have _ recently triple lock came in was so that i didn't have to _ recently triple lock came in was so that i didn't have to go _ recently triple lock came in was so that i didn't have to go to- recently triple lock came in was so that i didn't have to go to george i that i didn't have to go to george osborne — that i didn't have to go to george osborne in — that i didn't have to go to george osborne in 2011, _ that i didn't have to go to george osborne in 2011, 2012, _ that i didn't have to go to george osborne in 2011, 2012, every- that i didn't have to go to georgej osborne in 2011, 2012, every year and bed — osborne in 2011, 2012, every year and bed we _ osborne in 2011, 2012, every year and bed we had _ osborne in 2011, 2012, every year and beg. we had a _ osborne in 2011, 2012, every year and beg. we had a rule _ osborne in 2011, 2012, every year and beg. we had a rule in- osborne in 2011, 2012, every year and beg. we had a rule in that. osborne in 2011, 2012, every year. and beg. we had a rule in that role has stood — and beg. we had a rule in that role has stood the _ and beg. we had a rule in that role has stood the test _ and beg. we had a rule in that role has stood the test of _ and beg. we had a rule in that role has stood the test of time. - and beg. we had a rule in that role has stood the test of time. pair- has stood the test of time. pair enou:h has stood the test of time. pair enough but _ has stood the test of time. pair enough but it — has stood the test of time. pair enough but it is _ has stood the test of time. pith enough but it is crowding has stood the test of time. enough but it is crowding out spending on everyone else. younger generation, you will have heard the intergenerational fairness argument, it means you cannot spend the government cannot spend on younger

people. but government cannot spend on younger --eole. �* , ., , people. but younger people, that is a generation — people. but younger people, that is a generation who _ people. but younger people, that is a generation who are _ people. but younger people, that is a generation who are much - people. but younger people, that is a generation who are much less - a generation who are much less likely— a generation who are much less likely to — a generation who are much less likely to have _ a generation who are much less likely to have anything - a generation who are much less likely to have anything else - a generation who are much less likely to have anything else by. a generation who are much less i likely to have anything else by way of big _ likely to have anything else by way of big private — likely to have anything else by way of big private pensions. _ likely to have anything else by way of big private pensions. younger. of big private pensions. younger people _ of big private pensions. younger people will— of big private pensions. younger people will be _ of big private pensions. younger people will be old _ of big private pensions. younger people will be old one _ of big private pensions. younger people will be old one day - of big private pensions. youngeri people will be old one day ponder of big private pensions. younger. people will be old one day ponder if we ease _ people will be old one day ponder if we ease back— people will be old one day ponder if we ease back on _ people will be old one day ponder if we ease back on the _ people will be old one day ponder if we ease back on the state - people will be old one day ponder if we ease back on the state pension. we ease back on the state pension now. _ we ease back on the state pension now. what— we ease back on the state pension now. what will— we ease back on the state pension now, what will they _ we ease back on the state pension now, what will they live _ we ease back on the state pension now, what will they live on - we ease back on the state pension now, what will they live on if- we ease back on the state pension now, what will they live on if it - now, what will they live on if it isn't _ now, what will they live on if it isn't 25% — now, what will they live on if it isn't 25% of _ now, what will they live on if it isn't 25% of the _ now, what will they live on if it isn't 25% of the ways _ now, what will they live on if it isn't 25% of the ways and - now, what will they live on if it isn't 25% of the ways and old l now, what will they live on if it . isn't 25% of the ways and old and they have — isn't 25% of the ways and old and they have modest _ isn't 25% of the ways and old and they have modest pensions? - isn't 25% of the ways and old and. they have modest pensions? what isn't 25% of the ways and old and - they have modest pensions? what will they have modest pensions? what will they live _ they have modest pensions? what will they live on? _ they have modest pensions? what will they live on? they— they have modest pensions? what will they live on? they need _ they have modest pensions? what will they live on? they need a _ they have modest pensions? what will they live on? they need a good - they have modest pensions? what will they live on? they need a good state i they live on? they need a good state pension— they live on? they need a good state pension as _ they live on? they need a good state pension as welt _ they live on? they need a good state pension as well. find _ they live on? they need a good state pension as well.— pension as well. and they also need to be able to _ pension as well. and they also need to be able to afford _ pension as well. and they also need to be able to afford a _ pension as well. and they also need to be able to afford a home, - pension as well. and they also need to be able to afford a home, not - to be able to afford a home, not spending the left pane of graduate tax, not having threshold frozen but i agree, so why should all the pain of that fall on the state pension? there are so many other ways we could _ there are so many other ways we could save — there are so many other ways we could save money— there are so many other ways we could save money on _ there are so many other ways we could save money on an - there are so many other ways we could save money on an ageing . could save money on an ageing population _ could save money on an ageing population. it's _ could save money on an ageing population-— could save money on an ageing --oulation. �*, ., , , ., population. it's not 'ust the state ension. population. it's not 'ust the state pension. i _ population. it's not 'ust the state pension. i want — population. it's not 'ust the state pension. i want to _ population. it's notjust the state pension. i want to keep - population. it's notjust the state pension. i want to keep the - population. it's notjust the state pension. i want to keep the 25%l pension. i want to keep the 25% level— pension. i want to keep the 25% level i_ pension. i want to keep the 25% level i want to keep the pension going _ level i want to keep the pension going up— level i want to keep the pension going up in line with earnings but that £45— going up in line with earnings but that £45 billion number is the entire — that £45 billion number is the entire defence budget ponder it's the sort — entire defence budget ponder it's the sort of scale of money we are potentially talking about. in a rather — potentially talking about. in a rather uncertain and haphazard way and i_ rather uncertain and haphazard way and i think— rather uncertain and haphazard way and i think we need to have a system

that is— and i think we need to have a system that is more — and i think we need to have a system that is more predictable. base it on earnings. _ that is more predictable. base it on earnings. if— that is more predictable. base it on earnings, if inflation spikes in a particular— earnings, if inflation spikes in a particular year, you can protect people — particular year, you can protect people and return to the earnings average _ people and return to the earnings average but if we don't get off this hook average but if we don't get off this book we _ average but if we don't get off this hook we will have yet another unsustainable burden on the public finances _ unsustainable burden on the public finances along with the many other risks we _ finances along with the many other risks we currently face. gk. finances along with the many other risks we currently face.— risks we currently face. 0k. thank ou ve risks we currently face. 0k. thank you very much- — risks we currently face. ok. thank you very much. thank— risks we currently face. 0k. thank you very much. thank you - risks we currently face. 0k. thank you very much. thank you for - risks we currently face. 0k. thank. you very much. thank you for being here, thabani sithole, we appreciate your time, steve webb and david gauke. we're going to take you back to 1990, the first gulf war, saddam hussein's soldiers crossed the border into kuwait — sparking an international crisis. in the early hours of august 2nd, 1990, british airways flight 149 touched down at kuwait international airport for refuelling, as iraqi armed forces were invading. there were more than 300 passengers and crew on board. they were detained and it marked the start of an ordeal lasting up to five months as they were used by saddam hussain as "human shields" against western attacks.

some were physically and sexually abused. over 30 years later, documents released showed the foreign office was warned that iraqi forces had crossed the border an hour before the flight landed. for years many on board felt ignored, silenced even, as they tried to find out why their flight hadn't been diverted. the information was never passed to ba, which was unable to take action to divert the flight, according to the foreign office files released to the national archives. there have been claims that a group of men who were the first to disembark when the plane landed were special forces troops, but that's always been been denied by the uk government. now some on that flight are preparing to take legal action against the british government and british airways for their alleged role in the landing. i spoke to nicola dowling — a member of the cabin crew on that flight who was taken hostage — about why she's joined the case.

intelligence experts say 100,000 iraqi troops are massed at the border~ — iraqi troops are massed at the border. but eyewitnesss say there are no— border. but eyewitnesss say there are no signs of any troop movements. taking _ are no signs of any troop movements. taking you _ are no signs of any troop movements. taking you right back to the day the plane took off from heathrow, when did you know that something was wrong? it did you know that something was wron: ? . . did you know that something was wron? . , ., ._ did you know that something was wron? . , ., ., , ., wrong? it was exceptionally hot. the ca tain wrong? it was exceptionally hot. the captain wasn't _ wrong? it was exceptionally hot. the captain wasn't relaxed. _ wrong? it was exceptionally hot. the captain wasn't relaxed. his _ wrong? it was exceptionally hot. the captain wasn't relaxed. his word - captain wasn't relaxed. his word were when the apu system was being fixed. ., . ., ., were when the apu system was being fixed. ., .., ., he fixed. the air conditioning? he said, fixed. the air conditioning? he said. im _ fixed. the air conditioning? he said. i'mjust_ fixed. the air conditioning? he said, i'm just waiting - fixed. the air conditioning? he said, i'm just waiting to - fixed. the air conditioning? he said, i'm just waiting to be - fixed. the air conditioning? he| said, i'm just waiting to be told fixed. the air conditioning? he i said, i'm just waiting to be told i don't have to fly here. i'm not happy with it. the delay went on and on and then these four guys walked on. they looked completely regular and ordinary, i can't stress that enough. they looked like a group of dads going on a schooljolly with their kids. i escorted them to their

seats, as soon as they sat down, we pushed back and it happened like that. . . . pushed back and it happened like that. ., , ., ., ,, pushed back and it happened like that. ., , ., .«i pushed back and it happened like that. ., , ., .,~' ., that. had the plane taken off on time, that. had the plane taken off on time. those _ that. had the plane taken off on time, those four— that. had the plane taken off on time, those four wouldn't - that. had the plane taken off on time, those four wouldn't have l that. had the plane taken off on i time, those four wouldn't have got on? ., time, those four wouldn't have got on? ida. there has been talk of war on? no. there has been talk of war for ten on? ida. there has been talk of war for ten days... the invasion started at 2 o'clock— for ten days... the invasion started at 2 o'clock this morning. iraqi troops — at 2 o'clock this morning. iraqi troops crossed the border, setting off to _ troops crossed the border, setting off to kuwait. | troops crossed the border, setting off to kuwait-— off to kuwait. i got a call saying the passengers _ off to kuwait. i got a call saying the passengers sat _ off to kuwait. i got a call saying the passengers sat in _ off to kuwait. i got a call saying the passengers sat in these - off to kuwait. i got a call saying i the passengers sat in these seats are allowed to get off before anything else. that was iggers are. irregular. but i didn't question it. irregular. but i didn't question it. i said as soon as the seat belt signs come off i will take you off.

why did you think they were being let off first. i why did you think they were being let off first. ., ., why did you think they were being let off first-— let off first. i had no idea, i didn't think, _ let off first. i had no idea, i didn't think, we _ let off first. i had no idea, i didn't think, we had - let off first. i had no idea, i didn't think, we had a - let off first. i had no idea, i didn't think, we had a busy| let off first. i had no idea, i- didn't think, we had a busy flight, but off they got and i didn't see them again. but off they got and i didn't see them again-— but off they got and i didn't see them again. when you got off as crew, them again. when you got off as crew. what _ them again. when you got off as crew, what did _ them again. when you got off as crew, what did you _ them again. when you got off as crew, what did you note - them again. when you got off as crew, what did you note snis --| crew, what did you note snis -- notice? it _ crew, what did you note snis -- notice? it was _ crew, what did you note snis -- notice? it was very quiet. i got to my hotel, curtains were closed and the phone rang. i answered it and it was the captain and he said, nicky, are your curtains closed? weird. i said, yes. he said, kuwait's been invaded by iraq. i remember thinking, why have we landed? and i asked that question, he said, i'm not answering any questions at the moment, i will be holding a meeting tonight at the fifth floor of the hotel has been taken over by the iraqis. they're using it as their head quarters, don't venture out of

your room. head quarters, don't venture out of your room-— your room. you ended up being in that hotel almost _ your room. you ended up being in that hotel almost three _ your room. you ended up being in that hotel almost three weeks - your room. you ended up being in i that hotel almost three weeks when the captain told you all he was going to chaira the captain told you all he was going to chair a meeting and he said what? he going to chair a meeting and he said what? ., ., , what? he said i have got ten minutes to tell ou what? he said i have got ten minutes to tell you this. .. _ what? he said i have got ten minutes to tell you this. .. i _ what? he said i have got ten minutes to tell you this. .. i have _ what? he said i have got ten minutes to tell you this. .. i have reason - what? he said i have got ten minutes to tell you this. .. i have reason to - to tell you this... i have reason to believe that iraq will be, the army will be rounding you all up tonight to deploy you as human shields to stop the west from bombing. he said for reasons i'm not prepared to go into, i can't be found there because of my surname. i never felt fear like that. i was beyond feeling anything exceptjust this cold dread going through me. a couple of hours later, we drove into this what

looked like a huge military camp and there were these prefabbed houses in a horse shoe shape. had there were these prefabbed houses in a horse shoe shape.— there were these prefabbed houses in a horse shoe shape. had it dawned on ou that a horse shoe shape. had it dawned on you that you — a horse shoe shape. had it dawned on you that you were _ a horse shoe shape. had it dawned on you that you were in _ a horse shoe shape. had it dawned on you that you were in fact _ a horse shoe shape. had it dawned on you that you were in fact hostages? i you that you were in fact hostages? no. when we got into these houses and we saw the horror and the deprivation of these houses... iadhat deprivation of these houses... what were they like? _ deprivation of these houses... what were they like? they _ deprivation of these houses... what were they like? they had _ deprivation of these houses... what were they like? they had been - were they like? they had been completely _ were they like? they had been completely raided, _ were they like? they had been completely raided, trashed, i completely raided, trashed, ransacked and looted by the iraqi army, who then lived in them until we had brought to them. i calculate ou were we had brought to them. i calculate you were there _ we had brought to them. i calculate you were there for— we had brought to them. i calculate you were there for about _ we had brought to them. i calculate you were there for about six - we had brought to them. i calculate| you were there for about six weeks? is that right? you were there for about six weeks? is that right?— you were there for about six weeks? is that right? yes. eventually you were able to _ is that right? yes. eventually you were able to get _ is that right? .ezs eventually you were able to get out? is that right? yes. eventually you were able to get out? yes. - is that right? yes. eventually you were able to get out? yes. on i is that right? yes. eventually you i were able to get out? yes. on 28th september — were able to get out? .ezs on 28th september 1990. why are you taking legal action against the british government and british airways? because they inserted a military operation on a civilian aircraft. they lied to us. countless times.

they lied to us. countless times. they treated us appallingly. both obviously out there, we were treated out there, but when we came back, british airways treated us appallingly and they have got to be held accountable.— appallingly and they have got to be held accountable. when did you first thin , held accountable. when did you first thin, hant held accountable. when did you first thing. hang on _ held accountable. when did you first thing. hang on a _ held accountable. when did you first thing, hang on a minute, _ held accountable. when did you first thing, hang on a minute, i— held accountable. when did you first thing, hang on a minute, i think- held accountable. when did you first thing, hang on a minute, i think the| thing, hang on a minute, i think the british government knew what was going on? british government knew what was ttoin on? ~ ., british government knew what was ttoin on? . ., british government knew what was ttoin on? ~ ., ., british government knew what was totin on? ~ ., ., ., going on? who were those four late boarders and _ going on? who were those four late boarders and why _ going on? who were those four late boarders and why did _ going on? who were those four late boarders and why did they - going on? who were those four late boarders and why did they have - boarders and why did they have preferencial boarding. we held the aircraft and those guys came on. if thatis aircraft and those guys came on. if that is true, how do you feel about that? ., , , , that is true, how do you feel about that? .,, ,, ,, that? furious, upset. beyond upset. fufious that? furious, upset. beyond upset. furiousi that? furious, upset. beyond upset. furious i was lied _ that? furious, upset. beyond upset. furious i was lied to. _ that? furious, upset. beyond upset. furious i was lied to. for— that? furious, upset. beyond upset. furious i was lied to. for almost - that? furious, upset. beyond upset. furious i was lied to. for almost 30| furious i was lied to. for almost 30 ears, furious i was lied to. for almost 30 years. british _ furious i was lied to. for almost 30 years, british governments - furious i was lied to. for almost 30 years, british governments alwaysl years, british governments always maintained they did not know about the iraqi invasion until it was too late and your plane had landed.

however, when foreign office documents, archive files were released in 2021, liz truss admitted that the public, you, parliament, everyone on that plane had been misled for decade and had been lied to for decades about that flight. because the british ambassador warned the foreign office about the invasion and the government kept that warning secret for three decades. when you heard that, how did you react? i at decades. when you heard that, how did you react?— did you react? i w flabbergasted. can ou did you react? i w flabbergasted. can you describe _ did you react? i w flabbergasted. can you describe the _ did you react? i w flabbergasted. can you describe the effect - did you react? i w flabbergasted. can you describe the effect on i did you react? i w flabbergasted. i can you describe the effect on your life, the impact from this happening to you as a 22—year—old young woman as the years went by? i to you as a 22-year-old young woman as the years went by?— as the years went by? i felt... i wasn't believed. _ as the years went by? i felt... i wasn't believed. i _ as the years went by? i felt... i wasn't believed. i had - as the years went by? i felt... i wasn't believed. i had panic- wasn't believed. i had panic attacks. ajob which i loved doing and which i tried to do and i wanted

to do but couldn't do because i could not fly to the middle east. british airways couldn't roster me to middle east, became the source of huge anguish, i had no choice to leave. i was never supported, huge anguish, i had no choice to leave. iwas never supported, i never heard. i was never listened to. i lost my confidence. i lost my home. ., ., ,, , . home. nicola, thank you very much for talkint home. nicola, thank you very much for talking to _ home. nicola, thank you very much for talking to us. _ also on that plane was barry manners — at the time a 24—year—old businessman. and the lawyer representing the passengers and crew preparing to take legal action, matthewjury. how do you feel now this legal action is beginning, barry? iwould like to say i'm _

action is beginning, barry? iwould like to say i'm optimistic _ action is beginning, barry? iwould like to say i'm optimistic that i action is beginning, barry? iwould like to say i'm optimistic that we i like to say i'm optimistic that we are being listened to. my experience of being in kuwait, iraq, as a hostage, where nothing is within your control, it makes me very cautious about being optimistic about things like this. the government misrepresented the situation that we were in when i came back from iraq my mother asked me, she asked me was the weather nice? because she had been told that we were on some sort of holiday. yet we were on some sort of holiday. yet we were on some sort of holiday. yet we were there in... there were episodes, mock executions. �*t�*au we were there in... there were episodes, mock executions. you were sub'ect to episodes, mock executions. you were subject to that? _ episodes, mock executions. you were subject to that? yes, _ episodes, mock executions. you were subject to that? yes, twice. _ episodes, mock executions. you were subject to that? yes, twice. i- episodes, mock executions. you were subject to that? yes, twice. i won't i subject to that? yes, twice. i won't describe the _ subject to that? yes, twice. i won't describe the toilets _ subject to that? yes, twice. i won't describe the toilets we _ subject to that? yes, twice. i won't describe the toilets we had, - subject to that? yes, twice. i won't describe the toilets we had, i i subject to that? yes, twice. i won't| describe the toilets we had, i spent two years of my life scraping 30 years of dried faeces off a toilet,

because that is where we were going to shower and turn up. there is 45 degree heat and there is six of you in a room. we were above the turbine room of a hydro electric plant. the noise is more than a 747. so finally the truth is coming out. and hopefully british airways and the government can be held to account. matthewjury, the government matthew jury, the government statement matthewjury, the government statement we have is the government has always condemned the invasion and the mistreatment of those on that flight and the responsibility for the events and the mistreatment of the passengers and crew lies with the government of iraq. ba says our hearts go out to those court in this

act of war british airways was not informed about the invasion. from the evidence you have seen and read, why are you adamant that ba knew what was going on, knew when that plane landed for a rescheduled, for a scheduled refuelling, iraqi forces had already crossed the border into kuwait. . . . had already crossed the border into kuwait. ., , ., ., , , kuwait. that is an embarrassing statement _ kuwait. that is an embarrassing statement by — kuwait. that is an embarrassing statement by ba, _ kuwait. that is an embarrassing statement by ba, the _ kuwait. that is an embarrassing statement by ba, the national. statement by ba, the national archives — statement by ba, the national archives demonstrate the opposite and that— archives demonstrate the opposite and that the british embassy briefed ba around _ and that the british embassy briefed ba around midday on the 1st august that any— ba around midday on the 1st august that any flights from the uk should not be _ that any flights from the uk should not be landing in kuwait, because the invasion was imminent. british airways— the invasion was imminent. british airways manager, his family left three _ airways manager, his family left three hours late tore fly to switzerland.— three hours late tore fly to switzerland. three hours late tore fly to i switzerland._ yes. three hours late tore fly to - switzerland._ yes. so switzerland. from kuwait? yes. so actually the — switzerland. from kuwait? yes. so actually the national _ switzerland. from kuwait? yes. so actually the national archive - actually the national archive materials demonstrate the opposite of what _ materials demonstrate the opposite of what ba have told you. that is

somewhere odd.— of what ba have told you. that is somewhere odd. ., ., ,~. _ ,. somewhere odd. how would you say you have been impacted _ somewhere odd. how would you say you have been impacted by _ somewhere odd. how would you say you have been impacted by that _ somewhere odd. how would you say you have been impacted by that traumatic i have been impacted by that traumatic experience through the years that have gone by? the experience through the years that have gone by?— experience through the years that have tone b ? , ., ., have gone by? the first two to three ears after have gone by? the first two to three years after coming _ have gone by? the first two to three years after coming back, _ have gone by? the first two to three years after coming back, i _ have gone by? the first two to three years after coming back, i went i have gone by? the first two to three | years after coming back, i went from being an invincible, optimistic could do anything 24—year—old, to being incapable of even taking a train on my own in the first few weeks coming back. probably two to three years before i could function and get back in the saddle as it were. ida and get back in the saddle as it were. y ., and get back in the saddle as it were. ,~. i. and get back in the saddle as it were. ., and get back in the saddle as it were. ,~. ,~. ., ., were. do you feel you lost two to three years _ were. do you feel you lost two to three years of — were. do you feel you lost two to three years of your _ were. do you feel you lost two to three years of your life? - were. do you feel you lost two to three years of your life? yes, i were. do you feel you lost two to three years of your life? yes, it i three years of your life? yes, it took two or— three years of your life? yes, it took two or three _ three years of your life? yes, it took two or three years - three years of your life? yes, it took two or three years to i three years of your life? yes, it took two or three years to have j three years of your life? yes, it i took two or three years to have the ability to be answerable to function and motivate myself to be able to get... as i say to get back into mainstream life and start building a career and getting on with life. i don't want to dwell on and look

back, if i do look back on these events it can be intrusive and niall is tick. ifocus events it can be intrusive and niall is tick. i focus on my work and my other interests and so on, without looking back at it.— other interests and so on, without looking back at it. what do you want to achieve with _ looking back at it. what do you want to achieve with this _ looking back at it. what do you want to achieve with this legal _ looking back at it. what do you want to achieve with this legal action? i to achieve with this legal action? it is what the victims want to achieve _ it is what the victims want to achieve. and what they all say comes first is— achieve. and what they all say comes first is the _ achieve. and what they all say comes first is the truth. they simply want the truth — first is the truth. they simply want the truth. they want to stop the statements which dance around what actually _ statements which dance around what actually happened and such as ba's comment— actually happened and such as ba's comment to you today, it just flies in the _ comment to you today, it just flies in the face — comment to you today, it just flies in the face of what is there, the evidence — in the face of what is there, the evidence. why is it 30 odd years later— evidence. why is it 30 odd years later that — evidence. why is it 30 odd years later that the victims and survivors can't _ later that the victims and survivors can't be _ later that the victims and survivors can't be told what actually happened

that day? _ can't be told what actually happened that day? fits | can't be told what actually happened that da ? �* , , ., that day? as i understand it, in 1996 ou that day? as i understand it, in 1996 you received _ that day? as i understand it, in 1996 you received something i that day? as i understand it, in i 1996 you received something like a £200 compensation payment for what you had been through? i was £200 compensation payment for what you had been through?— you had been through? i was given £200 at the _ you had been through? i was given £200 at the airport _ you had been through? i was given £200 at the airport and _ you had been through? i was given £200 at the airport and a - you had been through? i was given £200 at the airport and a letter- you had been through? i was given £200 at the airport and a letter i i £200 at the airport and a letter i think from the red cross saying, don't operate heavy machinery or something, and it was pretty much it. . ., ., , ., something, and it was pretty much it. . ., ., ., something, and it was pretty much it. what do you want from this now? as matthew — it. what do you want from this now? as matthew said, _ it. what do you want from this now? as matthew said, i _ it. what do you want from this now? as matthew said, i would _ it. what do you want from this now? as matthew said, i would like - it. what do you want from this now? as matthew said, i would like the i as matthew said, i would like the truth, i would like an explanation. i think this was a reckless endangerment, a moment perhaps of hubris on the part of somebody in power where they thought they could get away with it and it has backfired on them. i think when something like this happens, you have to put your hand up, admit what went wrong and put it right and it is being lied to about that that i

find frustrating.— is being lied to about that that i find frustrating. briefly come on the toint find frustrating. briefly come on the point about _ find frustrating. briefly come on the point about being _ find frustrating. briefly come on the point about being lied i find frustrating. briefly come on the point about being lied to, i find frustrating. briefly come on | the point about being lied to, the archive documents said the british government knew the forces were across the border and the government is adamant that were no special forces on the plane but are you saying you can prove they were? i am sa int saying you can prove they were? i am saying there — saying you can prove they were? i am saying there is _ saying you can prove they were? i am saying there is evidence they were on the _ saying there is evidence they were on the plane, it's very important to point _ on the plane, it's very important to point out _ on the plane, it's very important to point out they say there were no special— point out they say there were no special forces on the plane but what we are _ special forces on the plane but what we are alleging is that there were former— we are alleging is that there were former special forces and former security— former special forces and former security services which formed a black— security services which formed a black op— security services which formed a black op team called the increment which _ black op team called the increment which are _ black op team called the increment which are on the plane to carry out a special— which are on the plane to carry out a special military operation. the government has ducked answering the question. _ government has ducked answering the question, were the increment on board _ question, were the increment on board that — question, were the increment on board that plane, that is what the government needs to answer. and you sa the government needs to answer. and you say they were- — government needs to answer. and you say they were- i _ government needs to answer. and you say they were- i say — government needs to answer. and you say they were. i say they _ government needs to answer. and you say they were. i say they were. - say they were. i say they were. thank you _ say they were. i say they were. thank you very _ say they were. i say they were. thank you very much, - say they were. i say they were. thank you very much, we i say they were. i say they were. thank you very much, we will i thank you very much, we will continue to follow your story, thank you for being with us. in eastern libya there is a huge tragedy unfolding after storms led to massive floods on sunday. one aid responder working with the local government has told us he believes around 13,000 people

are missing, many thousands of them dead. much of the city of derna, home to 100,000 people, is under water, with two dams nearby collapsing in the storm. libya has asked for international humanitarian assistance but there are fears over how aid workers will be able to get to those in need of help. here's emir. winds reported to be in excess of 100 kph surging from across the mediterranean. storm daniel has ravaged eastern libya, bringing an unprecedented amount, over 40 centimetres of rainfall in a day. this was the scene in the city of derna on monday after it passed. now 10,000 people are reported missing, a loss of life barely imaginable. there is no electricity, no internet, but we managed to reach

one aid worker on the ground in a neighbouring town.— one aid worker on the ground in a neighbouring town. 10,000 was the approximation _ neighbouring town. 10,000 was the approximation of _ neighbouring town. 10,000 was the approximation of the _ neighbouring town. 10,000 was the approximation of the warning - neighbouring town. 10,000 was the approximation of the warning but i approximation of the warning but right now the number is about 13,000 people between missing and casualties due to the storm. and reaching them something difficult because there was four main pass into the city and three of them are now out of service because there is huge damage. but now out of service because there is huge damage-— huge damage. but while the storm came from the _ huge damage. but while the storm came from the caecum _ huge damage. but while the storm came from the caecum it _ huge damage. but while the storm came from the caecum it reached i came from the caecum it reached below derna, hitting two dams south of the city, sending a flood rushing back into the town. huge blocks of the city have been washed away like sand, claiming the lives of the inhabitants with them.- sand, claiming the lives of the inhabitants with them. there is only one electric — inhabitants with them. there is only one electric company _ inhabitants with them. there is only one electric company working - inhabitants with them. there is only one electric company working in i one electric company working in derna, only a few hours ago, the electricity is still down because

apart from 25—30% of the city has now disappeared. this apart from 25-30% of the city has now disappeared.— apart from 25-30% of the city has now disappeared. this clip shows the void where. — now disappeared. this clip shows the void where, until— now disappeared. this clip shows the void where, until sunday _ now disappeared. this clip shows the void where, until sunday evening, i void where, until sunday evening, apartment blocks stood side by side. analysed by bbc verify, we can say this "is 70 metres from the banks of the river. local authorities in derna told residents to evacuate if they could but by sunday night as they could but by sunday night as the storm made landfall the advice changed. a curfew was imposed, combining people to their homes just as the worst of the storm hit. == as the worst of the storm hit. -- confining — as the worst of the storm hit. -- confining people. everybody is in the same boat of trying to reach friends and contacts who have not made it out and i personally have friends and some relatives that are in the city and unfortunately no one can get in touch with them. what was happening with the dams before they were flooded and preached, they were filling up for days and in the final hours before that, there were people uploading those videos from derna

itself before the grid went down around two a local time, but the local authority that failed to act responsibly. local authority that failed to act responsibly-— local authority that failed to act res-onsibl . ., , ., responsibly. one local resident from derna managed _ responsibly. one local resident from derna managed to _ responsibly. one local resident from derna managed to share _ responsibly. one local resident from derna managed to share these i derna managed to share these pictures of the aftermath on social media. storm daniel was seen coming but is local now attempt to give the bodies recovered so far a dignified burial at hogg graves, rescuers are overwhelmed with the scale of need in front of them and are calling out for support —— ad hoc graves. so much more about happening in libya

on the bbc website. the head of the anti—monarchy group republic, who was arrested just before he was about to protest on the day of king charles' coronation, says he's taking legal action against the metropolitan police who used a controversial new law to detain him and seven others for 14 hours. he's graham smith. he is here to tell us why he is taking this action in his first interview about it so firstly, why don't you remind the audience about the circumstances of your arrest. it was quite early in the morning, we arrived at trafalgar square. we were met with a fairly frosty reception by the police. met with a fairly frosty reception by the police-— by the police. that is you in the ellow. by the police. that is you in the yellow- that — by the police. that is you in the yellow. that is _ by the police. that is you in the yellow. that is me, _ by the police. that is you in the yellow. that is me, we - by the police. that is you in the yellow. that is me, we met i by the police. that is you in the l yellow. that is me, we met back by the police. that is you in the i yellow. that is me, we met back up to meet with _ yellow. that is me, we met back up to meet with a _ yellow. that is me, we met back up to meet with a bang _ yellow. that is me, we met back up to meet with a bang to _ yellow. that is me, we met back up to meet with a bang to unload i yellow. that is me, we met back up to meet with a bang to unload 600 | to meet with a bang to unload 600 placards and were immediately surrounded by dozens of police officers who again very frosty and hostile and were asking who we were,

what our intentions were. we had had four months of discussions with the police and it was made very clear that everybody else on the grant would have been briefed about who we were and what we were doing. and without any particular, no willingness on their part to listen to us, they stopped us, detain us, searched us, arrested us and took us off to a police station in south london for the rest of the day. ittdhat london for the rest of the day. what was our london for the rest of the day. what was your reaction _ london for the rest of the day. what was your reaction when _ london for the rest of the day. what was your reaction when that happened? i was your reaction when that happened?— was your reaction when that hat-ened? , ., was your reaction when that hat tened? , ~. ., ., happened? i was shocked. i had to make sit down _ happened? i was shocked. i had to make sit down meetings _ happened? i was shocked. i had to make sit down meetings with i happened? i was shocked. i had to make sit down meetings with the i make sit down meetings with the superintendent, the silver commander for the day, and a lot of phone calls and text messages, e—mails exchanged... calls and text messages, e-mails exchanged- - -_ exchanged... you are saying that they knew _ exchanged... you are saying that they knew what _ exchanged... you are saying that they knew what you _ exchanged... you are saying that they knew what you were i exchanged... you are saying that they knew what you were going i exchanged... you are saying that| they knew what you were going to exchanged... you are saying that i they knew what you were going to do and you knew that they were not going to stop you because you were not doing anything illegal? taste going to stop you because you were not doing anything illegal? we were ve ex-licit not doing anything illegal? we were very explicit about _ not doing anything illegal? we were very explicit about every _ not doing anything illegal? we were very explicit about every detail- not doing anything illegal? we were very explicit about every detail of i very explicit about every detail of what we were planning, gave them a map of where we would be an on the day there was no basis for any arrest, no grounds for suspicion of intent to break the law, we weren't

equipped to break the law.