big story of the day. view on the big story of the day. this is a really big story, the future of the pension triple—lock. it is a story that affects all of us and it is very important we hear from you on this as well. the pensions triple lock, is it fair? this is the commitment to increase the state pension by the annual growth in annual earnings, prices, or 2.5%, whichever is higher. from the government, lots of interesting things being said by politicians at the moment. the triple lock is unsustainable in the very, very long term. well, one person's very long term. well, one person's very long term is sooner than you think for somebody else, perhaps. they say they are working on political egg politicians of all parties, on this one, because, well, older people

vote very, very often, but there is a real element of saying the unsayable and thinking the unthinkable. we need to hearfrom you on it. people have worked all their lives, done their bit, paid their lives, done their bit, paid theirfair share, their lives, done their bit, paid theirfairshare, and their lives, done their bit, paid theirfair share, and based on wages, at the moment, 8.5% of the pension is £13. not too much to ask, is it? but at the heart of this is generational fairness for the young, who are suffering high rents, student loans, and affordable houses. so the trickle down, don't know about that... the triple lock, is it fair? get in touch. some good calls coming in and

fantastic experts as well, meaning our listeners and our viewers. here is the news. president putin has promised help for north korea's space programme during talks with kimjong—un at space programme during talks with kim jong—un at a russian spaceport. pyongyang has tried twice this year and failed to launch satellites. the speculation north korea could agreed to supply moscow with weapons for its war in ukraine. at least 10,000 people are missing following floods in eastern libya. the collapse of two dams swept away parts of the port city of derna. at least 2300 people are known to have died. the uk economy shrank by 0.5% in july as wet weather hit retail industries. it continues a trend of weak economic growth in the uk. and the head of bp has resigned with immediate effect. he says he had not been fully transparent about his

personal relationships with colleagues. the triple lock, the future of the triple lock with pensions. a few politicians at the moment saying they can't commit to what it ain't their next manifesto, and also suggestions of making marginal changes to test the water. william hague, former pensions minister way long ago, wrote a really interesting article yesterday in the times on all this. i will quote a little bit to you. fairness between the generations. younger people face house prices that are now nine times average earnings compared with an affordable four times when i was in my 20s. it is inescapable that the upfront costs of energy transition will fall on their generation over the next wende years, so will the

cost of much higher defence spending in a more dangerous world. to have an entire generation struggling to develop a stake in the economy is socially and politically dangerous. they should not be asked to pay for a runaway train in spending with the triple lock would become. wow, a runaway train. so steve webb, former pensions minister in the coalition, widely credited as being one of the biggest brains on this issue. good morning. now partner with pensions consultant lcp. haw morning. now partner with pensions consultant lcp._ consultant lcp. how are you? i am well. consultant lcp. how are you? i am well- sandra — consultant lcp. how are you? i am well. sandra num, _ consultant lcp. how are you? i am well. sandra num, patty— consultant lcp. how are you? i am well. sandra num, patty norwich, | consultant lcp. how are you? i am - well. sandra num, patty norwich, tim in bath, good — well. sandra num, patty norwich, tim in bath, good morning _ well. sandra num, patty norwich, tim in bath, good morning all. _ well. sandra num, patty norwich, tim in bath, good morning all. bring - well. sandra num, patty norwich, tim in bath, good morning all. bring it- in bath, good morning all. bring it on. is it sustainable? is it fair? i don't know that it is necessarily

sustainable but i do feel there are accusations that we are all baby boomers— accusations that we are all baby boomers living in big houses with massive — boomers living in big houses with massive cars and rolling in money is completely— massive cars and rolling in money is completely off. my state pension is £160 a _ completely off. my state pension is £160 a week. my council tax is £189 a month_ £160 a week. my council tax is £189 a month and my energy costs are just in excess _ a month and my energy costs are just in excess of— a month and my energy costs are just in excess of £250 a month. with food, _ in excess of £250 a month. with food, if— in excess of £250 a month. with food, if i — in excess of £250 a month. with food, if i did not have pensions from _ food, if i did not have pensions from my— food, if i did not have pensions from my previous employment and if i had not _ from my previous employment and if i had not saved, i would not be able to afford _ had not saved, i would not be able to afford to — had not saved, i would not be able to afford to live. | had not saved, i would not be able to afford to live.— to afford to live. i have got it. we are “ust to afford to live. i have got it. we are just going _ to afford to live. i have got it. we are just going to _ to afford to live. i have got it. we are just going to try _ to afford to live. i have got it. we are just going to try and - to afford to live. i have got it. we are just going to try and get - to afford to live. i have got it. we are just going to try and get a - are just going to try and get a better line. what you are saying is very important, this misconception that pensioners are rolling in money and spending all their time enjoying

themselves and disproportionately not struggling like so many other people are. it is a point very, very well made. there is a lot of stereotyping going on. i will be back with you if we get a better line. .. ., back with you if we get a better line. ,,., ., ., back with you if we get a better line. ., ., ., ,., back with you if we get a better line. ., ., ., , g, line. sandra, what do you think? i think to place _ line. sandra, what do you think? i think to place that _ line. sandra, what do you think? i think to place that responsibility l think to place that responsibility on the _ think to place that responsibility on the shoulders _ think to place that responsibility on the shoulders of— think to place that responsibility on the shoulders of pensioners. think to place that responsibility. on the shoulders of pensioners or people _ on the shoulders of pensioners or people approaching _ on the shoulders of pensioners or people approaching pension - on the shoulders of pensioners or people approaching pension age i on the shoulders of pensioners ori people approaching pension age is going _ people approaching pension age is going to _ people approaching pension age is going to cause _ people approaching pension age is going to cause a _ people approaching pension age is going to cause a great— people approaching pension age is going to cause a great deal- people approaching pension age is going to cause a great deal of- going to cause a great deal of hardship _ going to cause a great deal of hardship and _ going to cause a great deal of hardship and difficulty. - going to cause a great deal of hardship and difficulty. i- going to cause a great deal ofj hardship and difficulty. i think with— hardship and difficulty. i think with the — hardship and difficulty. i think with the recent _ hardship and difficulty. i think with the recent rise _ hardship and difficulty. i think with the recent rise in- hardship and difficulty. i think with the recent rise in utility. with the recent rise in utility prices, _ with the recent rise in utility prices, rising— with the recent rise in utility prices, rising food, - with the recent rise in utility prices, rising food, people i with the recent rise in utility. prices, rising food, people that with the recent rise in utility- prices, rising food, people that are renting _ prices, rising food, people that are renting privately. _ prices, rising food, people that are renting privately, and _ prices, rising food, people that are renting privately, and even - prices, rising food, people that are renting privately, and even peoplel renting privately, and even people in social— renting privately, and even people in social housing, _ renting privately, and even people in social housing, i _ renting privately, and even people in social housing, ithink— renting privately, and even people in social housing, i think things i in social housing, i think things are difficult— in social housing, i think things are difficult as _ in social housing, i think things are difficult as they— in social housing, i think things are difficult as they are - in social housing, i think things are difficult as they are at - in social housing, i think things are difficult as they are at the i are difficult as they are at the moment, _ are difficult as they are at the moment, and _ are difficult as they are at the moment, and so— are difficult as they are at the moment, and so if— are difficult as they are at the moment, and so if this - are difficult as they are at the moment, and so if this were. are difficult as they are at the i moment, and so if this were to are difficult as they are at the - moment, and so if this were to go through— moment, and so if this were to go through and — moment, and so if this were to go through and come _ moment, and so if this were to go through and come into _ moment, and so if this were to go through and come into effect - moment, and so if this were to go through and come into effect and i through and come into effect and people _ through and come into effect and people did — through and come into effect and people did experience _ through and come into effect and people did experience this - through and come into effect and people did experience this drop. through and come into effect and | people did experience this drop in income. _ people did experience this drop in income. as— people did experience this drop in income, as well— people did experience this drop in income, as well as _ people did experience this drop in income, as well as the _ people did experience this drop in income, as well as the increase i people did experience this drop in income, as well as the increase in pension— income, as well as the increase in pension age. _ income, as well as the increase in pension age. which— income, as well as the increase in pension age, which is _ income, as well as the increase in pension age, which is going - income, as well as the increase in pension age, which is going to. income, as well as the increase in. pension age, which is going to make things— pension age, which is going to make things very— pension age, which is going to make things very difficult _ pension age, which is going to make things very difficult for _ pension age, which is going to make things very difficult for a _ pension age, which is going to make things very difficult for a number - things very difficult for a number of people — things very difficult for a number of people. the _ things very difficult for a number of people. the average - things very difficult for a number i of people. the average retirement income _ of people. the average retirement income is — of people. the average retirement income is £361— of people. the average retirement income is £361 a _ of people. the average retirement income is £361 a week, _ of people. the average retirement income is £361 a week, the - of people. the average retirement. income is £361 a week, the average state _ income is £361 a week, the average state pension— income is £361 a week, the average state pension is— income is £361 a week, the average state pension is £203— income is £361 a week, the average state pension is £203 a _ income is £361 a week, the average state pension is £203 a week, - income is £361 a week, the average state pension is £203 a week, and i state pension is £203 a week, and that does—

state pension is £203 a week, and that does not— state pension is £203 a week, and that does not include _ state pension is £203 a week, and that does not include tax. - state pension is £203 a week, and i that does not include tax. somebody has to— that does not include tax. somebody has to live _ that does not include tax. somebody has to live off— that does not include tax. somebody has to live off the _ that does not include tax. somebody has to live off the remainder. - that does not include tax. somebody has to live off the remainder. i- has to live off the remainder. i don't _ has to live off the remainder. i don't see — has to live off the remainder. i don't see how— has to live off the remainder. i don't see how that _ has to live off the remainder. i don't see how that is - has to live off the remainder. i don't see how that is possible. has to live off the remainder. i. don't see how that is possible. i think— don't see how that is possible. i think it — don't see how that is possible. i think it is — don't see how that is possible. i think it is going _ don't see how that is possible. i think it is going to _ don't see how that is possible. i think it is going to increase - don't see how that is possible. i think it is going to increase thel think it is going to increase the hardship — think it is going to increase the hardship for— think it is going to increase the hardship for people. _ think it is going to increase the hardship for people. i - think it is going to increase the hardship for people. i know- think it is going to increase the - hardship for people. i know people are going _ hardship for people. i know people are going through— hardship for people. i know people are going through hardships - hardship for people. i know people are going through hardships at - hardship for people. i know people are going through hardships at the | are going through hardships at the moment — are going through hardships at the moment life _ are going through hardships at the moment. life is— are going through hardships at the moment. life is very— are going through hardships at the moment. life is very difficult - are going through hardships at the moment. life is very difficult for. are going through hardships at the moment. life is very difficult for a| moment. life is very difficult for a number— moment. life is very difficult for a number of— moment. life is very difficult for a number of people _ moment. life is very difficult for a number of people at _ moment. life is very difficult for a number of people at the - moment. life is very difficult for aj number of people at the moment. moment. life is very difficult for a - number of people at the moment. for sure. and number of people at the moment. for sure- and that — number of people at the moment. for sure. and that is _ number of people at the moment. for sure. and that is going _ number of people at the moment. for sure. and that is going to _ number of people at the moment. for sure. and that is going to make - number of people at the moment. for sure. and that is going to make it - number of people at the moment. for sure. and that is going to make it a i sure. and that is going to make it a lot worse- — sure. and that is going to make it a lot worse- it _ sure. and that is going to make it a lot worse. it is _ sure. and that is going to make it a lot worse. it is important _ sure. and that is going to make it a lot worse. it is important to - sure. and that is going to make it a lot worse. it is important to point i lot worse. it is important to point out that the _ lot worse. it is important to point out that the age _ lot worse. it is important to point out that the age is _ lot worse. it is important to point out that the age is going - lot worse. it is important to point out that the age is going to - lot worse. it is important to point out that the age is going to be i out that the age is going to be raised in 2026. do you think this is all very unfair on the young? it is kind of, we never had it so good. and they are really up against it. i think it is unfair on the young, but the reality— think it is unfair on the young, but the reality of— think it is unfair on the young, but the reality of it _ think it is unfair on the young, but the reality of it for _ think it is unfair on the young, but the reality of it for people - think it is unfair on the young, but the reality of it for people who - think it is unfair on the young, but the reality of it for people who are of pension— the reality of it for people who are of pension age _ the reality of it for people who are of pension age and _ the reality of it for people who are of pension age and approaching i of pension age and approaching pension— of pension age and approaching pension age _ of pension age and approaching pension age is— of pension age and approaching pension age is that _ of pension age and approaching pension age is that they- of pension age and approaching pension age is that they will. of pension age and approaching | pension age is that they will not of pension age and approaching. pension age is that they will not be able to— pension age is that they will not be able to live — pension age is that they will not be able to live on _ pension age is that they will not be able to live on that _ pension age is that they will not be able to live on that amount. - pension age is that they will not be able to live on that amount. they i able to live on that amount. they paid into — able to live on that amount. they paid into their— able to live on that amount. they paid into their pension _ able to live on that amount. they paid into their pension with - able to live on that amount. they paid into their pension with the l paid into their pension with the expectation _ paid into their pension with the expectation that— paid into their pension with the expectation that they - paid into their pension with the expectation that they would . paid into their pension with the - expectation that they would receive a certain— expectation that they would receive a certain amount _ expectation that they would receive a certain amount of— expectation that they would receive a certain amount of money. - expectation that they would receive a certain amount of money. there i expectation that they would receive i

a certain amount of money. there was a certain amount of money. there was a government— a certain amount of money. there was a government pledge _ a certain amount of money. there was a government pledge or— a certain amount of money. there was a government pledge or promise - a certain amount of money. there was a government pledge or promise in . a government pledge or promise in 2010 that _ a government pledge or promise in 2010 that pensions _ a government pledge or promise in 2010 that pensions would - a government pledge or promise in 2010 that pensions would either. a government pledge or promise inl 2010 that pensions would either rise with the _ 2010 that pensions would either rise with the rate — 2010 that pensions would either rise with the rate of— 2010 that pensions would either rise with the rate of inflation _ 2010 that pensions would either rise with the rate of inflation or- with the rate of inflation or pension— with the rate of inflation or pension increases- with the rate of inflation or pension increases or- with the rate of inflation or. pension increases or whatever with the rate of inflation or- pension increases or whatever it was, _ pension increases or whatever it was, and — pension increases or whatever it was, and that— pension increases or whatever it was, and that is— pension increases or whatever it was, and that is not— pension increases or whatever it was, and that is not being - pension increases or whatever it - was, and that is not being honoured. so, was, and that is not being honoured. so. yes, _ was, and that is not being honoured. so. yes, i_ was, and that is not being honoured. so. yes, i do— was, and that is not being honoured. so, yes, i do believe _ was, and that is not being honoured. so, yes, i do believe it _ was, and that is not being honoured. so, yes, i do believe it is _ was, and that is not being honoured. so, yes, i do believe it is going - was, and that is not being honoured. so, yes, i do believe it is going to i so, yes, i do believe it is going to be a _ so, yes, i do believe it is going to be a great — so, yes, i do believe it is going to be a great weight— so, yes, i do believe it is going to be a great weight on— so, yes, i do believe it is going to be a great weight on the - so, yes, i do believe it is going tol be a great weight on the shoulders of young _ be a great weight on the shoulders of young people _ be a great weight on the shoulders of young people i_ be a great weight on the shoulders of young people. i think— be a great weight on the shoulders of young people. i think we - be a great weight on the shoulders of young people. i think we also i of young people. i think we also have _ of young people. i think we also have to — of young people. i think we also have to take _ of young people. i think we also have to take into _ of young people. i think we also have to take into account - of young people. i think we also have to take into account all- of young people. i think we also have to take into account all the peoptem — have to take into account all the people... we _ have to take into account all the people... we don't _ have to take into account all the people... we don't know- have to take into account all the people... we don't know how. have to take into account all the . people... we don't know how long have to take into account all the - people... we don't know how long we will live _ people... we don't know how long we will live for. _ people... we don't know how long we will live for. you — people... we don't know how long we will live for, you might— people... we don't know how long we will live for, you might as _ people... we don't know how long we will live for, you might as an - people... we don't know how long we will live for, you might as an older- will live for, you might as an older person— will live for, you might as an older person iive — will live for, you might as an older person live for _ will live for, you might as an older person live for another— will live for, you might as an older person live for another 30 - will live for, you might as an older person live for another 30 years i will live for, you might as an older. person live for another 30 years and living _ person live for another 30 years and living on _ person live for another 30 years and living on that — person live for another 30 years and living on that type _ person live for another 30 years and living on that type of— person live for another 30 years and living on that type of income, - person live for another 30 years and living on that type of income, i- living on that type of income, i think— living on that type of income, i think it — living on that type of income, i think it is — living on that type of income, i think it is unacceptable. - living on that type of income, i think it is unacceptable. find . living on that type of income, i think it is unacceptable. and the inescapable _ think it is unacceptable. and the inescapable existential - think it is unacceptable. and the inescapable existential truth, i think it is unacceptable. and the - inescapable existential truth, young people become old people. absolutely.— people become old people. absolutely. people become old people. absolutel . , , , absolutely. good stuff. tim, is it fair? the triple _ absolutely. good stuff. tim, is it fair? the triple lock. _ absolutely. good stuff. tim, is it fair? the triple lock. no, - absolutely. good stuff. tim, is it fair? the triple lock. no, it - absolutely. good stuff. tim, is it fair? the triple lock. no, it is - absolutely. good stuff. tim, is it| fair? the triple lock. no, it is not fair? the triple lock. no, it is not fair at all- — fair? the triple lock. no, it is not fair at all- my— fair? the triple lock. no, it is not fair at all. my dad _ fair? the triple lock. no, it is not fair at all. my dad celebrated - fair? the triple lock. no, it is not fair at all. my dad celebrated his| fair at all. my dad celebrated his 87th birthday yesterday. this is a luy 87th birthday yesterday. this is a guy who — 87th birthday yesterday. this is a guy who fought for his country, has worked _ guy who fought for his country, has worked all— guy who fought for his country, has worked all his life from the age of

17, has _ worked all his life from the age of 17, has contributed through the tax system, _ 17, has contributed through the tax system, national insurance system, corporation — system, national insurance system, corporation tax, you name it, has paid _ corporation tax, you name it, has paid through the nose all his life, and has _ paid through the nose all his life, and has enabled the rest of us to enjoy— and has enabled the rest of us to enjoy what— and has enabled the rest of us to enjoy what the state can offer as we reach _ enjoy what the state can offer as we reach a _ enjoy what the state can offer as we reach a certain age. it should be protected — reach a certain age. it should be protected and we should have some respect _ protected and we should have some respect for— protected and we should have some respect for the people who have paid money— respect for the people who have paid money into— respect for the people who have paid money into a system that we all benefit — money into a system that we all benefit from. i am not hearing any alternative — benefit from. i am not hearing any alternative here. i benefit from. i am not hearing any alternative here. lam not benefit from. i am not hearing any alternative here. i am not hearing what _ alternative here. i am not hearing what the — alternative here. i am not hearing what the alternative is to a triple lock, _ what the alternative is to a triple lock. just — what the alternative is to a triple lock, just that it would be removed. do we _ lock, just that it would be removed. do we give — lock, just that it would be removed. do we give them less? a percentage? where _ do we give them less? a percentage? where do _ do we give them less? a percentage? where do we draw the line? and at the end _ where do we draw the line? and at the end of— where do we draw the line? and at the end of the day, it is not the government's money, it is our money. we paid _ government's money, it is our money. we paid into _ government's money, it is our money. we paid into the exchequer, the exchequer is supposed to manage that many for— exchequer is supposed to manage that many for the benefit of the country. where _ many for the benefit of the country. where do _ many for the benefit of the country. where do we stop? do we say let's not spend — where do we stop? do we say let's not spend 12% of gdp on the nhs, for

example? _ not spend 12% of gdp on the nhs, for example? there should be some respect _ example? there should be some respect for the people who have paid into that _ respect for the people who have paid into that system and that is not saying — into that system and that is not saying that my children, for example, don't find it difficult to live in— example, don't find it difficult to live in the — example, don't find it difficult to live in the current circumstances, and i_ live in the current circumstances, and i completely understand it, but we work— and i completely understand it, but we work towards the benefit of all and that _ we work towards the benefit of all and that is— we work towards the benefit of all and that is my opinion on it. that is what we _ and that is my opinion on it. that is what we want. _ and that is my opinion on it. that is what we want. so _ and that is my opinion on it. that is what we want. so just - and that is my opinion on it. trust is what we want. so just to be clear, you think that the triple lock should stay in place? i clear, you think that the triple lock should stay in place? i do. a coule of lock should stay in place? i do. a coople of text — lock should stay in place? i do. a couple of text if _ lock should stay in place? i do. a couple of text if i _ lock should stay in place? i do. a couple of text if i may. _ lock should stay in place? i do. a couple of text if i may. should we make old people cold and hungry to make old people cold and hungry to make young people feel better? and, i have worked since i was 15, paid into the pension scheme until i was 65, i also paid into it works pension until age 55, and between the two pensions i am able to exist prudently, although i still have to pay tax on one of my pensions, so my advice to young people is to spend all you have when you can still

enjoy it because if you don't the government will do their best to cheat you in the future. wow. what a great range of views coming in on this. and there is also another misconception. sandra was talking about the misconception that pensioners are breathing injacuzzis of cash and all that nonsense. the other misconception is that so many have private pensions so what is the problem? right, k in dover coming up. cert steve webb, listening to this, william hague refers to the triple lock as a runaway train. is he right? i triple lock as a runaway train. is he riuht? ., �* ~' , triple lock as a runaway train. is he riuht? ., �* ~ , , he right? i don't think he is. this a -e will he right? i don't think he is. this ape will be _ he right? i don't think he is. this ape will be pension _ he right? i don't think he is. this ape will be pension went - he right? i don't think he is. this ape will be pension went up - he right? i don't think he is. this l ape will be pension went up 10.1%. it is a huge amount, the biggest increase we have ever seen, but why did it go up 10.1%? because the prices went up 10.1%. because the

call if you have are talking about energy bills, food bills, and pensioners probably spend more on food and energy that other people do. so it is not like this great bonanza. this is a very tough time to live in. yes, in 2050, which is a quarter of a century away, maybe not, but can we switch it off now? no. we can gradually switch it off, then. we can tweak it. because that seems to be in the air. it is then. we can tweak it. because that seems to be in the air.— seems to be in the air. it is in the air, but seems to be in the air. it is in the air. but i — seems to be in the air. it is in the air, but i think _ seems to be in the air. it is in the air, but i think it _ seems to be in the air. it is in the air, but i think it needs _ seems to be in the air. it is in the air, but i think it needs to - seems to be in the air. it is in the air, but i think it needs to run - seems to be in the air. it is in the air, but i think it needs to run on| air, but i think it needs to run on five or ten years more. as you said, i was a pensions minister in 2010. in the previous 30 years, the pension had been falling. be linked to inflation, which led to that 75p increase when you are, but we had been falling behind, and the point of a pension is to give you something to live on when you are not earning, and if it becomes

detached from what people earn, it can't do its job. detached from what people earn, it can't do itsjob. the detached from what people earn, it can't do its job. the triple lock was a clumsy rule to try and ratchet the pension back—up, but in 13 years you can't undo the damage of 30, so i think we need to run it on for five or ten years, get the pension to a decent level, may be a third of the average wage, and then peg it so it keeps rate with wages from thereafter, but it is still one of thereafter, but it is still one of the lowest state pensions in the western world despite being a relatively wealthy nation. we ought to be able to afford a decent pension. it to be able to afford a decent ension. . to be able to afford a decent ension. , , ., pension. it is interesting hearing oliticians pension. it is interesting hearing politicians from _ pension. it is interesting hearing politicians from all _ pension. it is interesting hearing politicians from all sides - pension. it is interesting hearing| politicians from all sides because they are tiptoeing over political 999 they are tiptoeing over political egg shells because disproportionately older people vote. here is an interesting stat, british election study team in 2018 found the turnout by age ranged from 40 - 50% found the turnout by age ranged from 40 — 50% among the youngest voters,

over 80% among the oldest, although it varies by constituency. so we have got the clash between economic reality and the politics. we are coming to k in dover and lewis in cirencester as well, we still have the excellent pat in norwich, the line was a bit dodgy a few moments ago, but we are still with you. william hague points out something interesting, that the arithmetic of this is not fully understood. those who love their numbers will appreciate this. it was explained by pauljohnson at the iss, the institute for fiscal studies, in a simplified example. if prices rise 20% this year and nothing next year, earnings rise nothing this year and 20% next, each will rise 20% in total while the pension will rise by 40%, so with all respect, is it a

flawed formula? if 40%, so with all respect, is it a flawed formula?— 40%, so with all respect, is it a flawed formula? if you were to run it for decades _ flawed formula? if you were to run it for decades and _ flawed formula? if you were to run it for decades and decades, - flawed formula? if you were to run it for decades and decades, yes, i flawed formula? if you were to run i it for decades and decades, yes, but we have run it for 13 years and what has actually happened in the real world is that it has not been a runaway train, it has just been a rule that has gradually restored the value of the state pension a bit. the point you made earlier about young people and young people will be old one day, my kids are in their 20s, neither of them owns a house, it is said many people in their 20s will not own a house, so just imagine being in retirement, having all the normal bills, and then fund all the normal bills, and then fund a rent on top, how are you going to pay for that? if you haven't got a big private pension, and most young people won't, you really need a good state pension, so i think young people need a good state pension as well. i people need a good state pension as well. . . people need a good state pension as well. ., ., ., , , ,

well. i had a modest property in london, which _ well. i had a modest property in london, which i _ well. i had a modest property in london, which i owned, - well. i had a modest property in london, which i owned, in - well. i had a modest property in | london, which i owned, in 1986, well. i had a modest property in - london, which i owned, in 1986, on a pretty modest wage, to be honest with you, from capital radio, but you don't need to know that. it was so much easier for us you don't need to know that. it was so much easierfor us back then. that is at the heart of this. k in dover, marianne in blackpool, good morning. lewis in cirencester. we have heard such interesting stuff from tim talking about his dad, from pat and sandra. have your say. is it fair? i pat and sandra. have your say. is it fair? ~' , ., pat and sandra. have your say. is it fair? ~ , ., . ~' pat and sandra. have your say. is it fair? ~' , ., ., ,, ., fair? i think when you talk to someone _ fair? i think when you talk to someone of _ fair? i think when you talk to someone of my _ fair? i think when you talk to someone of my generation, | fair? i think when you talk to | someone of my generation, i fair? i think when you talk to - someone of my generation, i am 32, your man _ someone of my generation, i am 32, your man before me said it absolutely, i am your man before me said it absolutely, lam never going your man before me said it absolutely, i am never going to own absolutely, i am never going to own a house _ absolutely, i am never going to own a house so — absolutely, i am never going to own a house. so when i get you pension age. _ a house. so when i get you pension age, i— a house. so when i get you pension age. iwill— a house. so when i get you pension age, i will have rent and stuff like that to _ age, i will have rent and stuff like that to think about as well. the younger— that to think about as well. the younger generation with young families— younger generation with young families are struggling a lot at the moment — families are struggling a lot at the moment. let's be clear, i don't moment. let's be clear, idon't think— moment. let's be clear, i don't think anybody should starve to death or freeze _ think anybody should starve to death or freeze to death, and we deem need

to respect— or freeze to death, and we deem need to respect our older generation, but we need _ to respect our older generation, but we need to— to respect our older generation, but we need to support our younger generation as well. we have got kids living _ generation as well. we have got kids living in— generation as well. we have got kids living in poverty. for someone of my generation— living in poverty. for someone of my generation to talk about state pension, _ generation to talk about state pension, we want to lower the state pension— pension, we want to lower the state pension age or at least freeze the state _ pension age or at least freeze the state pension age, so that somebody from my— state pension age, so that somebody from my generation has a fighting chance _ from my generation has a fighting chance of— from my generation has a fighting chance of ever reaching state pension _ chance of ever reaching state ension. �* . ~ chance of ever reaching state ension. �* , ,, i. pension. and lewis, i think you somewhat _ pension. and lewis, i think you somewhat agree _ pension. and lewis, i think you somewhat agree with _ pension. and lewis, i think you somewhat agree with that. - pension. and lewis, i think you somewhat agree with that. i . pension. and lewis, i think you | somewhat agree with that. i do. pension. and lewis, i think you l somewhat agree with that. i do. i think the young — somewhat agree with that. i do. i think the young of _ somewhat agree with that. i do. i think the young of today - somewhat agree with that. i do. i think the young of today are - somewhat agree with that. i do. i think the young of today are sold | somewhat agree with that. i do. i l think the young of today are sold a bit of— think the young of today are sold a bit of a _ think the young of today are sold a bit of a lie — think the young of today are sold a bit of a lie. they— think the young of today are sold a bit of a lie. they are _ think the young of today are sold a bit of a lie. they are paying - think the young of today are sold a bit of a lie. they are paying into. think the young of today are sold a bit of a lie. they are paying into ai bit of a lie. they are paying into a system _ bit of a lie. they are paying into a system which _ bit of a lie. they are paying into a system which they— bit of a lie. they are paying into a system which they hope - bit of a lie. they are paying into a system which they hope to - bit of a lie. they are paying into a system which they hope to have i system which they hope to have something. _ system which they hope to have something. we _ system which they hope to have something, we are _ system which they hope to have something, we are all— system which they hope to have something, we are all being - system which they hope to havel something, we are all being told system which they hope to have . something, we are all being told to financial— something, we are all being told to financial plan — something, we are all being told to financial plan for— something, we are all being told to financial plan for the _ something, we are all being told to financial plan for the future - something, we are all being told to financial plan for the future and - financial plan for the future and all that. — financial plan for the future and all that. and _ financial plan for the future and all that, and if— financial plan for the future and all that, and if the _ financial plan for the future and all that, and if the pension - financial plan for the future and all that, and if the pension is l financial plan for the future and. all that, and if the pension is not guaranteed — all that, and if the pension is not guaranteed to _ all that, and if the pension is not guaranteed to be _ all that, and if the pension is not guaranteed to be there, - all that, and if the pension is not guaranteed to be there, how- all that, and if the pension is not guaranteed to be there, how canj all that, and if the pension is not - guaranteed to be there, how can they possibly— guaranteed to be there, how can they possibly plan? — guaranteed to be there, how can they possibly plan? and _ guaranteed to be there, how can they possibly plan? and all _ guaranteed to be there, how can they possibly plan? and all you _ guaranteed to be there, how can they possibly plan? and all you see - guaranteed to be there, how can they possibly plan? and all you see all- possibly plan? and all you see all the time — possibly plan? and all you see all the time is — possibly plan? and all you see all the time is 8.5%_ possibly plan? and all you see all the time is 8.5% rise, _ possibly plan? and all you see all the time is 8.5% rise, that- possibly plan? and all you see all the time is 8.5% rise, that is- the time is 8.5% rise, that is obviously— the time is 8.5% rise, that is obviously based _ the time is 8.5% rise, that is obviously based on - the time is 8.5% rise, that is obviously based on these - obviously based on these calculations, _ obviously based on these calculations, but- obviously based on these calculations, but i- obviously based on these

calculations, but i am - obviously based on these . calculations, but i am short obviously based on these - calculations, but i am short young people _ calculations, but i am short young people will— calculations, but i am short young people will be _ calculations, but i am short young people will be thinking, _ calculations, but i am short young people will be thinking, 8.5%, - calculations, but i am short youngl people will be thinking, 8.5%, that is ridiculous — people will be thinking, 8.5%, that is ridiculous. i— people will be thinking, 8.5%, that is ridiculous. i think— people will be thinking, 8.5%, that is ridiculous. i think they— people will be thinking, 8.5%, that is ridiculous. i think they will- is ridiculous. i think they will also — is ridiculous. i think they will also see _ is ridiculous. i think they will also see the _ is ridiculous. i think they will also see the older— is ridiculous. i think they will| also see the older generation is ridiculous. i think they will. also see the older generation as being _ also see the older generation as being quite _ also see the older generation as being quite well— also see the older generation as being quite well off _ also see the older generation as being quite well off as _ also see the older generation as being quite well off as well. - also see the older generation asi being quite well off as well. they all had _ being quite well off as well. they all had a — being quite well off as well. they all had a lot— being quite well off as well. they all had a lot of— being quite well off as well. they all had a lot of so—called - all had a lot of so—called gold-plated _ all had a lot of so—called gold—plated pensions. all had a lot of so—called i gold—plated pensions many all had a lot of so—called - gold—plated pensions many years all had a lot of so—called _ gold—plated pensions many years ago and all— gold—plated pensions many years ago and all that — gold—plated pensions many years ago and all that i— gold—plated pensions many years ago and all that. i know— gold—plated pensions many years ago and all that. i know they _ gold—plated pensions many years ago and all that. i know they are - gold—plated pensions many years ago and all that. i know they are not - and all that. i know they are not all in _ and all that. i know they are not all in that— and all that. i know they are not all in that position _ and all that. i know they are not all in that position but _ and all that. i know they are not all in that position but there - and all that. i know they are not all in that position but there are j and all that. i know they are not i all in that position but there are a lot of— all in that position but there are a lot of them — all in that position but there are a lot of them and _ all in that position but there are a lot of them and i— all in that position but there are a lot of them and i think— all in that position but there are a lot of them and i think the - all in that position but there are a lot of them and i think the youthl all in that position but there are a i lot of them and i think the youth of today— lot of them and i think the youth of today will— lot of them and i think the youth of today will be — lot of them and i think the youth of today will be seeing _ lot of them and i think the youth of today will be seeing it _ lot of them and i think the youth of today will be seeing it as _ lot of them and i think the youth of today will be seeing it as a - lot of them and i think the youth of today will be seeing it as a hard - today will be seeing it as a hard deal _ today will be seeing it as a hard deal. �* . today will be seeing it as a hard deal �*.. today will be seeing it as a hard deal. �* , , ., ., ., deal. let's see if we have got a better line _ deal. let's see if we have got a better line from _ deal. let's see if we have got a better line from pat _ deal. let's see if we have got a better line from pat in - deal. let's see if we have got a| better line from pat in norwich. hello. i hope you can hear me a lot better— hello. i hope you can hear me a lot better now — hello. i hope you can hear me a lot better now— hello. i hope you can hear me a lot better now. that is lovely now, yes. i have a coople _ better now. that is lovely now, yes. i have a couple of— better now. that is lovely now, yes. i have a couple of comments. - better now. that is lovely now, yes. i have a couple of comments. i - better now. that is lovely now, yes. | i have a couple of comments. i might be being _ i have a couple of comments. i might be being very contentious and, to be quite _ be being very contentious and, to be quite frank. — be being very contentious and, to be quite frank, i don't really care. | quite frank, i don't really care. i like quite frank, i don't really care. like that. quite frank, i don't really care. i like that. everybody _ quite frank, i don't really care. i like that. everybody has - quite frank, i don't really care. i like that. everybody has always| like that. everybody has always -a in:

like that. everybody has always paving into _ like that. everybody has always paying into what _ like that. everybody has always paying into what they _ like that. everybody has always paying into what they thought i like that. everybody has always i paying into what they thought was like that. everybody has always - paying into what they thought was a kitty for _ paying into what they thought was a kitty for the future, but in fact, the truth — kitty for the future, but in fact, the truth is, they have always been paying _ the truth is, they have always been paying to _ the truth is, they have always been paying to cover social security, income — paying to cover social security, income support and a state pension now _ income support and a state pension now they— income support and a state pension now. they are not racking up an account — now. they are not racking up an account in — now. they are not racking up an account in their name for the future. — account in their name for the future, what they are doing is covering _ future, what they are doing is covering the cost of what it is today— covering the cost of what it is today and _ covering the cost of what it is today and that has been the same all the way— today and that has been the same all the way through, ever since the welfare — the way through, ever since the welfare state started. the other thing. _ welfare state started. the other thing, with the greatest of respect to the _ thing, with the greatest of respect to the young people on this programme, i can remember at least one period _ programme, i can remember at least one period of time in my life when inflation _ one period of time in my life when inflation was 23.5%, and i can also remember— inflation was 23.5%, and i can also remember at least twice in my lifetime — remember at least twice in my lifetime when i was paying 17.5% on a mortgage. the figures these days,

they think— a mortgage. the figures these days, they think they are awful, but compared with then, they are not. and at— compared with then, they are not. and at that — compared with then, they are not. and at that time, the rate of taxation _ and at that time, the rate of taxation, the basic rate of taxation _ taxation, the basic rate of taxation, was 29%. these facts never -et taxation, was 29%. these facts never get mentioned. they think we have never— get mentioned. they think we have never had — get mentioned. they think we have never had it— get mentioned. they think we have never had it so good. i will accept and admit. — never had it so good. i will accept and admit, yes, i was very lucky, i went— and admit, yes, i was very lucky, i went to _ and admit, yes, i was very lucky, i went to university and i didn't have to pay— went to university and i didn't have to pay my— went to university and i didn't have to pay my fees, i got a grant. without— to pay my fees, i got a grant. without it. — to pay my fees, i got a grant. without it, my parents could not have _ without it, my parents could not have afforded for me to go to university— have afforded for me to go to university because we came from a working—class background and my father's _ working—class background and my father's wages would not have paid to help _ father's wages would not have paid to help me to go to university, i fully— to help me to go to university, i fully acknowledge i have had some benefits. _ fully acknowledge i have had some benefits, but i have also been through — benefits, but i have also been through some very tough time. when my children _ through some very tough time. when my children were small, inflation, 23.5%, _ my children were small, inflation, 23~5%. the — my children were small, inflation, 23.5%, the interest rate, 17.5%. there _ 23.5%, the interest rate, 17.5%. there was— 23.5%, the interest rate, 17.5%. there was no support then from the

government, there was no help with energy— government, there was no help with energy cost. we didn't get these things _ energy cost. we didn't get these things. those are things that need to be _ things. those are things that need to be said — things. those are things that need to be said. it will need to understand, we have had very tough times— understand, we have had very tough times and _ understand, we have had very tough times and we paid our way. and £168 a week— times and we paid our way. and £168 a week isn't— times and we paid our way. and £168 a week isn't exactly a huge amount to ask— a week isn't exactly a huge amount to ask for— a week isn't exactly a huge amount to ask for when you are 75 and you need _ to ask for when you are 75 and you need some — to ask for when you are 75 and you need some support financially. it is worth “ust need some support financially. it 3 worthjust putting the context in worth just putting the context in here when you are talking about property and interest rates and mortgages back then, house prices are now nine times average earnings compared with... that are now nine times average earnings compared with- - -_ compared with... that might be the case, but compared with... that might be the case. but in — compared with... that might be the case, but in those _ compared with... that might be the case, but in those case, _ compared with... that might be the case, but in those case, the - case, but in those case, the mortgage _ case, but in those case, the mortgage that you were allowed to have was _ mortgage that you were allowed to have was only 2.5 times the husband's wage. when we got married, i husband's wage. when we got married, i earned _ husband's wage. when we got married, i earned more than my husband when we got _ i earned more than my husband when we got married, but we were not allowed — we got married, but we were not allowed to — we got married, but we were not allowed to use my income because the presumption was that the woman would

-et presumption was that the woman would get pregnant and then leave work and that income would be lost. that does not happen— that income would be lost. that does not happen now. they take both wages into consideration, they will give you five — into consideration, they will give you five times both wages. it was different — you five times both wages. it was different. house prices then were much _ different. house prices then were much lower, yes, i agree, different. house prices then were much lower, yes, iagree, but different. house prices then were much lower, yes, i agree, but that is partly— much lower, yes, i agree, but that is partly because the amount of money— is partly because the amount of money you could bowler was so much more _ money you could bowler was so much more restricted, so people didn't have _ more restricted, so people didn't have the — more restricted, so people didn't have the money to compete to make house _ have the money to compete to make house prices go up. but have the money to compete to make house prices go no— have the money to compete to make house prices go up. but how much of the older generation _ house prices go up. but how much of the older generation benefited - house prices go up. but how much of the older generation benefited from | the older generation benefited from the older generation benefited from the growth — the older generation benefited from the growth in — the older generation benefited from the growth in all— the older generation benefited from the growth in all those... _ the older generation benefited from the growth in all those... they- the older generation benefited from the growth in all those... they mayl the growth in all those... they may have _ the growth in all those... they may have been— the growth in all those... they may have been difficult _ the growth in all those... they may have been difficult at _ the growth in all those... they may have been difficult at the _ the growth in all those... they may have been difficult at the time - the growth in all those... they may have been difficult at the time but. have been difficult at the time but now some — have been difficult at the time but now some of— have been difficult at the time but now some of them _ have been difficult at the time but now some of them are _ have been difficult at the time but i now some of them are millionaires. with respect. — now some of them are millionaires. with respect. i— now some of them are millionaires. with respect, i wish— now some of them are millionaires. with respect, i wish i— now some of them are millionaires. with respect, i wish i was— now some of them are millionaires. with respect, i wish i was a - with respect, i wish i was a millionaire. how many millionaires are there? — millionaire. how many millionaires are there? . millionaire. how many millionaires are there? , ., ., ., are there? there is quite a lot more than they were _ are there? there is quite a lot more than they were years _ are there? there is quite a lot more than they were years ago. _ are there? there is quite a lot more than they were years ago. to - are there? there is quite a lot more than they were years ago. to be - than they were years ago. to be fair, ou than they were years ago. to be fair. you are _ than they were years ago. to be fair, you are talking _ than they were years ago. to be fair, you are talking about - than they were years ago. to be fair, you are talking about a - fair, you are talking about a generation... fair, you are talking about a generation. . ._ fair, you are talking about a generation... fair, you are talking about a reneration... , , ., , ., generation... everybody earns more these days- — generation... everybody earns more these days- but _ generation... everybody earns more these days. but if _ generation... everybody earns more these days. but if you _ generation. .. everybody earns more these days. but if you work- generation... everybody earns more these days. but if you work hard - generation... everybody earns more| these days. but if you work hard and you bought — these days. but if you work hard and you bought your house and you stayed

in it, inevitably you have benefited from _ in it, inevitably you have benefited from the _ in it, inevitably you have benefited from the increase in house prices, but that— from the increase in house prices, but that is— from the increase in house prices, but that is not your fault. you don't — but that is not your fault. you don't deserve to be castigated just because _ don't deserve to be castigated just because you stayed in one place and paid your— because you stayed in one place and paid your way through your life. a lot of— paid your way through your life. a lot of people like me, they are what you called _ lot of people like me, they are what you called asset rich because your property— you called asset rich because your property is— you called asset rich because your property is worth money, but they are income — property is worth money, but they are income poor. but property is worth money, but they are income poor.— property is worth money, but they are income poor. but a lot of them, there is another _ are income poor. but a lot of them, there is another argument, - are income poor. but a lot of them, there is another argument, they - there is another argument, they work — there is another argument, they work its— there is another argument, they work... �* ., ., there is another argument, they work... . ., ., , work... a lot of them, it is too exoensive. _ work... a lot of them, it is too exoensive. so _ work... a lot of them, it is too expensive, so you _ work... a lot of them, it is too expensive, so you are - work... a lot of them, it is too expensive, so you are in - work... a lot of them, it is too expensive, so you are in a - work... a lot of them, it is too l expensive, so you are in a catch work... a lot of them, it is too - expensive, so you are in a catch 22. maybe _ expensive, so you are in a catch 22. maybe a _ expensive, so you are in a catch 22. maybe a lot — expensive, so you are in a catch 22. maybe a lot of them should downgrade and allow _ maybe a lot of them should downgrade and allow those — maybe a lot of them should downgrade and allow those houses _ maybe a lot of them should downgrade and allow those houses to _ maybe a lot of them should downgrade and allow those houses to move - maybe a lot of them should downgrade and allow those houses to move on - and allow those houses to move on and allow those houses to move on and then— and allow those houses to move on and then they — and allow those houses to move on and then they would _ and allow those houses to move on and then they would not _ and allow those houses to move on and then they would not be - and allow those houses to move on and then they would not be cash i and then they would not be cash poor~ _ 0k, hang on. i don't think, respectfully. _ 0k, hang on. i don't think, respectfully, they - 0k, hang on. i don't think, respectfully, they should i 0k, hang on. i don't think, i respectfully, they should have 0k, hang on. i don't think, - respectfully, they should have to -ive respectfully, they should have to give up _ respectfully, they should have to give up their homes they have had for 40 _ give up their homes they have had

for 40 years. but we are not talking about _ for 40 years. but we are not talking about people who have got expensive houses. _ about people who have got expensive houses. we _ about people who have got expensive houses, we are talking about pensioners in rental properties, who have very— pensioners in rental properties, who have very little income, and who are being _ have very little income, and who are being told _ have very little income, and who are being told that they are going to go further— being told that they are going to go further and further down the social scale _ further and further down the social scale because they don't want to p5y~ scale because they don't want to pay but — scale because they don't want to pay. but what do you do then? what will you _ pay. but what do you do then? what will you do _ pay. but what do you do then? what will you do if you are in a rental property— will you do if you are in a rental property and you reach retirement a-e property and you reach retirement age that— property and you reach retirement age that you actually don't get a state _ age that you actually don't get a state pension, so you can't retire? my father— state pension, so you can't retire? my father did not retire until he was 75— my father did not retire until he was 75 and he didn't get his state pension— was 75 and he didn't get his state pension until he was 70 years old. that is— pension until he was 70 years old. that is going to happen to all of us. every one of my generation, that is going to happen. i will work until i die, there will be no state pension for me. you are talking about a bygone area where somebody could own a house, ring up children, on a single wage. a single income. that doesn't happen any more. you

cannot successfully run a household, letter room rent, on a single income. —— let alone rent. letter room rent, on a single income. -- let alone rent. there are --eole income. -- let alone rent. there are people who — income. -- let alone rent. there are people who do _ income. -- let alone rent. there are people who do it- — income. -- let alone rent. there are people who do it. i _ income. -- let alone rent. there are people who do it. i know— income. -- let alone rent. there are people who do it. i know them. - income. -- let alone rent. there are people who do it. i know them. i - income. -- let alone rent. there are people who do it. i know them. i am auoin to people who do it. i know them. i am going to bring _ people who do it. i know them. i —n going to bring sandra back in. sandra, coming after we have heard from tim. my sandra, coming after we have heard from tim. y sandra, coming after we have heard from tim. g . ., ., , from tim. my wife chose to raise the children in agreement _ from tim. my wife chose to raise the children in agreement with _ from tim. my wife chose to raise the children in agreement with myself, i children in agreement with myself, so i children in agreement with myself, so hust— children in agreement with myself, so ilust worked _ children in agreement with myself, so ijust worked harder. _ children in agreement with myself, so ijust worked harder. so- children in agreement with myself, so ijust worked harder. so you - children in agreement with myself, l so ijust worked harder. so you can, and i_ so ijust worked harder. so you can, and i am _ so ijust worked harder. so you can, and i am 56. — so ijust worked harder. so you can, and i am 56. by— so ijust worked harder. so you can, and i am 56, by the _ so ijust worked harder. so you can, and i am 56, by the way, _ so ijust worked harder. so you can, and i am 56, by the way, so- so ijust worked harder. so you can, and i am 56, by the way, so i- so ijust worked harder. so you can, and i am 56, by the way, so i am i so ijust worked harder. so you can, i and i am 56, by the way, so i am not in my— and i am 56, by the way, so i am not in my 30s. _ and i am 56, by the way, so i am not in my 30s. but— and i am 56, by the way, so i am not in my 30s. butl— and i am 56, by the way, so i am not in my 30s, but i am _ and i am 56, by the way, so i am not in my 30s, but i am not— and i am 56, by the way, so i am not in my 30s, but i am not in— and i am 56, by the way, so i am not in my 30s, but i am not in my- and i am 56, by the way, so i am not in my 30s, but i am not in my 80s. and i am 56, by the way, so i am notj in my 30s, but i am not in my 80s or 70s either~ _ in my 30s, but i am not in my 80s or 70s either~ but— in my 30s, but i am not in my 80s or 70s either. but we _ in my 30s, but i am not in my 80s or 70s either. but we managed - in my 30s, but i am not in my 80s or 70s either. but we managed as - in my 30s, but i am not in my 80s or 70s either. but we managed as a - 70s either. but we managed as a household — 70s either. but we managed as a household to _ 70s either. but we managed as a household to look— 70s either. but we managed as a household to look after- 70s either. but we managed as a | household to look after ourselves and do _ household to look after ourselves and do that _ household to look after ourselves and do that. so _ household to look after ourselves and do that. so it— household to look after ourselves and do that. so it is— household to look after ourselves and do that. so it is possible - household to look after ourselves and do that. so it is possible to. and do that. so it is possible to do. and do that. so it is possible to do i_ and do that. so it is possible to do i have _ and do that. so it is possible to do. i have three _ and do that. so it is possible to do. i have three children - and do that. so it is possible to do. i have three children and l and do that. so it is possible to do. i have three children and ii do. i have three children and i think— do. i have three children and i think none _ do. i have three children and i think none of— do. i have three children and i think none of them, _ do. i have three children and i think none of them, without i do. i have three children and i. think none of them, without help from _ think none of them, without help from myself. _ think none of them, without help from myself. or— think none of them, without help from myself, or my— think none of them, without help from myself, or my ex—wife, - think none of them, without help from myself, or my ex—wife, willj think none of them, without help. from myself, or my ex—wife, will be able to— from myself, or my ex—wife, will be able to afford — from myself, or my ex—wife, will be able to afford a _ from myself, or my ex—wife, will be able to afford a house. _ from myself, or my ex—wife, will be able to afford a house. that - from myself, or my ex—wife, will be able to afford a house. that is - from myself, or my ex—wife, will be able to afford a house. that is the i able to afford a house. that is the reality— able to afford a house. that is the reality of— able to afford a house. that is the reality of the _ able to afford a house. that is the reality of the situation _

able to afford a house. that is the reality of the situation now. - able to afford a house. that is the reality of the situation now. but . able to afford a house. that is the reality of the situation now. but itj reality of the situation now. but it is not _ reality of the situation now. but it is not right — reality of the situation now. but it is not right to _ reality of the situation now. but it is not right to say _ reality of the situation now. but it is not right to say it _ reality of the situation now. but it is not right to say it is— reality of the situation now. but it is not right to say it is not- is not right to say it is not possible _ is not right to say it is not possible to _ is not right to say it is not possible to do. _ is not right to say it is not. possible to do. furthermore, is not right to say it is not- possible to do. furthermore, we is not right to say it is not— possible to do. furthermore, we are talking _ possible to do. furthermore, we are talking about — possible to do. furthermore, we are talking about an _ possible to do. furthermore, we are talking about an allocation _ possible to do. furthermore, we are talking about an allocation of- talking about an allocation of income — talking about an allocation of income here. _ talking about an allocation of income here. so— talking about an allocation of income here. so a _ talking about an allocation ofj income here. so a proportion talking about an allocation of. income here. so a proportion of talking about an allocation of- income here. so a proportion of all of us _ income here. so a proportion of all of us pay— income here. so a proportion of all of us pay in — income here. so a proportion of all of us pay in to— income here. so a proportion of all of us pay in to the _ income here. so a proportion of all of us pay in to the state _ income here. so a proportion of all of us pay in to the state and - income here. so a proportion of all of us pay in to the state and the i of us pay in to the state and the state _ of us pay in to the state and the state is — of us pay in to the state and the state is meant _ of us pay in to the state and the state is meant to _ of us pay in to the state and the state is meant to allocate - of us pay in to the state and the state is meant to allocate that i state is meant to allocate that money — state is meant to allocate that money. when _ state is meant to allocate that money. when the _ state is meant to allocate that money. when the chap - state is meant to allocate that money. when the chap was i state is meant to allocate that - money. when the chap was talking about _ money. when the chap was talking about it _ money. when the chap was talking about it being _ money. when the chap was talking about it being a _ money. when the chap was talking about it being a runaway— money. when the chap was talking about it being a runaway train, - about it being a runaway train, think— about it being a runaway train, think about _ about it being a runaway train, think about hsz, _ about it being a runaway train, think about hsz, for— about it being a runaway train, think about hsz, for example. | think about hsz, for example. billions — think about hsz, for example. billions. that _ think about hsz, for example. billions. that is _ think about hsz, for example. billions. that is a _ think about hsz, for example. billions. that is a runaway- think about hsz, for example. i billions. that is a runaway train. that— billions. that is a runaway train. that rain— billions. that is a runaway train. that rain is— billions. that is a runaway train. that rain is never— billions. that is a runaway train. that rain is never going - billions. that is a runaway train. that rain is never going to- billions. that is a runaway train. that rain is never going to go, i billions. that is a runaway train. i that rain is never going to go, that train _ that rain is never going to go, that train. ... , that rain is never going to go, that train. .. , ., ., train. exactly. so what we are talkin: train. exactly. so what we are talking about _ train. exactly. so what we are talking about is _ train. exactly. so what we are talking about is an _ train. exactly. so what we are talking about is an allocationl train. exactly. so what we are. talking about is an allocation of all of— talking about is an allocation of all of the — talking about is an allocation of all of the people's _ talking about is an allocation of all of the people's money- talking about is an allocation of all of the people's money that i talking about is an allocation of- all of the people's money that goes into a _ all of the people's money that goes into a system. _ all of the people's money that goes into a system, and _ all of the people's money that goes into a system, and those _ all of the people's money that goes into a system, and those who - all of the people's money that goes into a system, and those who havel into a system, and those who have contributed — into a system, and those who have contributed over _ into a system, and those who have contributed over 45 _ into a system, and those who have contributed over 45 years - into a system, and those who have contributed over 45 years of - into a system, and those who have. contributed over 45 years of working life, contributed over 45 years of working life. through — contributed over 45 years of working life. through all _ contributed over 45 years of working life, through all of _ contributed over 45 years of working life, through all of the _ contributed over 45 years of working life, through all of the taxes - life, through all of the taxes associated, _ life, through all of the taxes associated, because - life, through all of the taxes associated, because there i life, through all of the taxes i associated, because there are life, through all of the taxes . associated, because there are a life, through all of the taxes - associated, because there are a lot, including _ associated, because there are a lot, including if— associated, because there are a lot, including if they— associated, because there are a lot, including if they were _ associated, because there are a lot, including if they were to _ associated, because there are a lot, including if they were to sell - associated, because there are a lot, including if they were to sell their. including if they were to sell their house. _ including if they were to sell their house. by— including if they were to sell their house. bythe— including if they were to sell their house, by the way, _ including if they were to sell their house, by the way, why - including if they were to sell their house, by the way, why on - including if they were to sell their house, by the way, why on earthl including if they were to sell their. house, by the way, why on earth are they not— house, by the way, why on earth are they not being — house, by the way, why on earth are they not being looked _ house, by the way, why on earth are they not being looked after? - house, by the way, why on earth are they not being looked after? and - they not being looked after? and that is— they not being looked after? and that is not— they not being looked after? and that is not to _ they not being looked after? and that is not to decry— they not being looked after? and that is not to decry or _ they not being looked after? and that is not to decry or put - they not being looked after? and that is not to decry or put down i they not being looked after? and i that is not to decry or put down how difficult _ that is not to decry or put down how difficult it _ that is not to decry or put down how difficult it is— that is not to decry or put down how difficult it is going _ that is not to decry or put down how difficult it is going to— that is not to decry or put down how difficult it is going to be _ that is not to decry or put down how difficult it is going to be for- that is not to decry or put down how difficult it is going to be for my- difficult it is going to be for my children— difficult it is going to be for my children to _ difficult it is going to be for my children to get _ difficult it is going to be for my

children to get on _ difficult it is going to be for my children to get on the - difficult it is going to be for my children to get on the propertyj children to get on the property ladder. — children to get on the property ladder. but— children to get on the property ladder, but we _ children to get on the property ladder, but we are _ children to get on the property ladder, but we are talking - children to get on the property. ladder, but we are talking about people _ ladder, but we are talking about people who _ ladder, but we are talking about people who have _ ladder, but we are talking about people who have reached - ladder, but we are talking about - people who have reached retirement a-e, people who have reached retirement age. they— people who have reached retirement age. they have — people who have reached retirement age, they have worked _ people who have reached retirement age, they have worked all _ people who have reached retirement age, they have worked all their- age, they have worked all their lives. _ age, they have worked all their lives. have _ age, they have worked all their lives, have contributed - age, they have worked all their lives, have contributed to - age, they have worked all their lives, have contributed to the i lives, have contributed to the system. _ lives, have contributed to the system. and _ lives, have contributed to the system, and they— lives, have contributed to the system, and they should - lives, have contributed to the system, and they should be i lives, have contributed to the - system, and they should be looked after~ _ system, and they should be looked after. .. system, and they should be looked after-- sorry- _ system, and they should be looked after-- sorry- i— system, and they should be looked after.- sorry. i mean, - system, and they should be looked after.- sorry. i mean, i- after. sandra. sorry. i mean, i auree after. sandra. sorry. i mean, i agree with _ after. sandra. sorry. i mean, i agree with the _ after. sandra. sorry. i mean, i agree with the comments - after. sandra. sorry. i mean, i agree with the comments that| after. sandra. sorry. i mean, i- agree with the comments that have been made. it is going to be very difficult _ been made. it is going to be very difficult for — been made. it is going to be very difficult for a lot of people. people _ difficult for a lot of people. people in the past, and i have myself. — people in the past, and i have myself, being a divorcee with children. _ myself, being a divorcee with children, i did two, sometimes three 'obs children, i did two, sometimes three jobs to support my children, and i am not _ jobs to support my children, and i am not saying people nowadays ought to do that. _ am not saying people nowadays ought to do that, because there are so many— to do that, because there are so many other— to do that, because there are so many other factors that you have to take into _ many other factors that you have to take into consideration. yes, it was difficult _ take into consideration. yes, it was difficult in — take into consideration. yes, it was difficult in my day, there were some benefits _ difficult in my day, there were some benefits to _ difficult in my day, there were some benefits to it, and on balance it is probably— benefits to it, and on balance it is probably the same for young people now and _ probably the same for young people now and will be like that in the future. — now and will be like that in the future. so _ now and will be like that in the future, so when you are looking at

it in balance, mortgages, the rates, they were _ it in balance, mortgages, the rates, they were higher at times, so there were _ they were higher at times, so there were pluses and minuses, and i think that will— were pluses and minuses, and i think that will be _ were pluses and minuses, and i think that will be the same for younger people _ that will be the same for younger people it — that will be the same for younger people. it will probably even more difficult _ people. it will probably even more difficult for them because we don't know— difficult for them because we don't know where this is all going to end. 0k. know where this is all going to end. ok we _ know where this is all going to end. ok. we don't know where this is going to end. ain't that the truth. just to remind everyone, there is no capital gains tax on primary property. ivan, have your say. ivan, have yoursay. good morning. ivan, have your say. good morning. i am 54 years old, i am on universal credit. _ am 54 years old, i am on universal credit. roughly— am 54 years old, i am on universal credit, roughly living _ am 54 years old, i am on universal credit, roughly living on— am 54 years old, i am on universal credit, roughly living on £8,400 . am 54 years old, i am on universal credit, roughly living on £8,400 a| credit, roughly living on £8,400 a year. _ credit, roughly living on £8,400 a year. that— credit, roughly living on £8,400 a year. that is— credit, roughly living on £8,400 a year, that is everything. _ credit, roughly living on £8,400 a year, that is everything. i- credit, roughly living on £8,400 a year, that is everything. i have - credit, roughly living on £8,400 a| year, that is everything. i have got to pay— year, that is everything. i have got to pay my— year, that is everything. i have got to pay my rent. _ year, that is everything. i have got to pay my rent, utility _ year, that is everything. i have got

to pay my rent, utility bills. - inaudible can i hear you? inaudible can i hearyou? we inaudible can i hear you? we may have dropped the line but we get the message. the triple look, is it sustainable, is it a runaway train, or is it a train that people completely deserve a ticket for after they have contributed through their lives? not just in a material way. caroline, have your say. just in a materialway. caroline, have your say-— just in a materialway. caroline, have your say. i've got a wee bit of a convoluted _ have your say. i've got a wee bit of a convoluted thing _ have your say. i've got a wee bit of a convoluted thing going _ have your say. i've got a wee bit of a convoluted thing going on. - have your say. i've got a wee bit of a convoluted thing going on. what| a convoluted thing going on. what happened was, my husband died very suddenly two years ago. basically

what happened was, when i tried to claim what i should have been able to claim on his state pension i was told i would get nothing. apparently the triple lock for him didn't apply. they said i wasn't entitled to anything. they didn't bother to tell us at the time. the so—called investment opportunity of the extra 1%, you let the government hold onto your pension... 1%, you let the government hold onto your pension- - -_ your pension... inaudible that's a — your pension... inaudible that's a great _ your pension... inaudible that's a great idea, - your pension... inaudible that's a great idea, why i your pension... inaudible . that's a great idea, why didn't your pension... inaudible - that's a great idea, why didn't we do that? we have read the letter back and i'm sure there was nothing in it. i said, back and i'm sure there was nothing in it. isaid, are back and i'm sure there was nothing in it. i said, are you sure this is

the case. i can't see anything at all. what they didn't do was tell us the downsides. what they should have said was, by the way, if you should die before you can claim this we are taking every penny you have worked for all your life. taking every penny you have worked forall your life. every taking every penny you have worked for all your life. every single last penny. and my pension is minuscule. we put everything into what was going to happen when he retired. and he carried on working and he was only 69 when he died. he was a hard—working, high earning person in wages, and the pension contributions, but they took everything away. i'm actually on something like £85 per week. blimey. exactl . something like £85 per week. blimey. exactly- and — something like £85 per week. blimey. exactly. and that's _ something like £85 per week. blimey. exactly. and that's the _ something like £85 per week. blimey. exactly. and that's the triple - something like £85 per week. blimey. exactly. and that's the triple lock - exactly. and that's the triple lock in place and everything else. and we

have both worked really hard, we have both worked really hard, we have done everything, i took time out to bring up the kids, but i'm sitting here and i have dealt with the dwp, i have dealt with my mp, who is mhairi black, by the way, who is retiring... who is mhairi black, by the way, who is retiring- - -— is retiring... retiring at a tender are, as is retiring... retiring at a tender age. as well- — is retiring... retiring at a tender age, as well. we _ is retiring... retiring at a tender age, as well. we will _ is retiring... retiring at a tender age, as well. we will leave - is retiring... retiring at a tender age, as well. we will leave it. is retiring... retiring at a tender i age, as well. we will leave it there but it shows what a complex issue this is, but it's at the heart of all our lives.— this is, but it's at the heart of all our lives.- i - this is, but it's at the heart of all our lives.- i want i this is, but it's at the heart of| all our lives.- i want to this is, but it's at the heart of - all our lives.- i want to do all our lives. exactly. i want to do some texts- _ all our lives. exactly. i want to do some texts. stewart, _ all our lives. exactly. i want to do some texts. stewart, in - all our lives. exactly. i want to do some texts. stewart, in my - all our lives. exactly. i want to do some texts. stewart, in my 70s. | all our lives. exactly. i want to do i some texts. stewart, in my 70s. to buy a house we sacrificed holidays, lived modestly, had sensible weddings in this country. is there such a thing as a sensible wedding? i know what you mean. this doesn't appear to be something the young are willing to do. lots of stuff being chucked around here. louise, i appreciate what some of the older generation have done but when i

stand behind people buying lottery tickets and cigarettes you want a house strapped for cash they are. strapped for cash, quite extrapolation. simon, young people have everything now, new cars, ipads, netflix and everything. all they had to cross the house, the rest of the income was for food. it's not comparable. thanks again to sir steve webb, another fantastic expert coming away after the news. and more of your calls. the triple lock on pensions, is it fair? get in touch. here is the news with bethan holmes. president putin and kim jong—un have been meeting at her russian space port as the kremlin promises to help north korea with its space programme to launch satellites. there is

speculation pyongyang could agree to supply moscow with weapons for its war in ukraine. the north korean leader told the russian president his country will always support putin's decisions. thousands more are feared to be dead after devastating floods in the eastern libyan city. at least 2300 people are known to have died and 10,000 are reported missing. the uk economy shrank by 0.5% injuly. a sharper drop than what was expected. wet weather and strike action are some of the driving factors for the fall. the government is being accused of misleading people over the availability of a type of medical cannabis on the nhs despite it being legalised in 2018. less than five nhs patients have been given the medicine. the government says safety needs to be proven before a wider roll—out. those were the news headlines, now the sport with katie smith.—

the news headlines, now the sport with katie smith. . , ., with katie smith. sometimes you need to take our with katie smith. sometimes you need to take your medicine _ with katie smith. sometimes you need to take your medicine in _ with katie smith. sometimes you need to take your medicine in football, - to take your medicine in football, that's— to take your medicine in football, that's scotland boss steve clarke after _ that's scotland boss steve clarke after they were beaten 3—1 by england — after they were beaten 3—1 by england at home. he says international week has been a success— international week has been a success with a fifth euros qualifying when to put them on the verge _ qualifying when to put them on the verge of— qualifying when to put them on the verge of securing a spot at the tournament next summer. jude bellingham was the england standout player— bellingham was the england standout player last night although gareth southgate says the criticism thrown at defender harry maguire is a joke. harry— at defender harry maguire is a joke. harry maguire turned home an own -oal harry maguire turned home an own goal when — harry maguire turned home an own goal when he came on in the second half. goal when he came on in the second half he _ goal when he came on in the second half he has — goal when he came on in the second half. he has had only one substitute appearance at club level with manchester united this season. tennis— manchester united this season. tennis coach patrick mouratoglou, who has _ tennis coach patrick mouratoglou, who has worked with simona halep for a number— who has worked with simona halep for a number of— who has worked with simona halep for a number of years has defended the former— a number of years has defended the former world number one, saying a number of years has defended the formerworld number one, saying he hopes— formerworld number one, saying he hopes tennis authorities will do their— hopes tennis authorities will do their best to change a system that is destroying the careers of innocent _ is destroying the careers of innocent players. simona halep has said she _ innocent players. simona halep has said she will appeal her four year suspension handed down yesterday for bein- suspension handed down yesterday for being found guilty of intentional anti—doping violations. great britain — anti—doping violations. great britain begin their davis cup finals group _ britain begin their davis cup finals group stage campaign today facing australia _ group stage campaign today facing

australia in manchester today in their— australia in manchester today in their first — australia in manchester today in their first round robin match. you can watch— their first round robin match. you can watch on— their first round robin match. you can watch on the iplayer from one o'clock _ more on the triple lock and the fairness thereof or not coming up. to tell you what's happening at ten o'clock on bbc news and bbc two, the latest national and international news right here on 5 live we will be talking to an mp, or you will be talking to an mp, or you will be talking to an mp, or you will be talking to mp5, it's that time on a wednesday when they ask your

questions, whatever they are. we have damian green from the conservatives, former cabinet minister. justin madders from labour and wendy chamberlain from the liberal democrats. this is ahead of pmqs. whether it is sewage, shoplifting, spies, triple locks, doublejeopardy, brexit, whatever. it's your questions and it's up to them to answer them. get your texts and if you like and we will put you on the air. 85058 is the text number. get in touch. we have got jess we have gotjess in the rhondda soon and ryan in south—east london and susan in southampton as well. good morning to all of you. baroness ros

altmann, first off, conservative peer and former pensions minister. good morning baroness. ros, ifi may. good morning baroness. ros, ifi ma . . y good morning baroness. ros, ifi ma . . , i good morning baroness. ros, ifi may-_ i don't - good morning baroness. ros, ifi may._ i don't know . good morning baroness. ros, ifi may._ i don't know if. good morning baroness. ros, if i i may._ i don't know if you may. absolutely. i don't know if you have heard — may. absolutely. i don't know if you have heard any _ may. absolutely. i don't know if you have heard any of _ may. absolutely. i don't know if you have heard any of this _ may. absolutely. i don't know if you have heard any of this but _ may. absolutely. i don't know if you have heard any of this but it - may. absolutely. i don't know if you have heard any of this but it has - have heard any of this but it has been very lively. what is going on in politics at the moment? as i put it earlier, there was a lot of tiptoeing and obfuscation going on, and, we can't promise anything, can wejust tweak it, and, we can't promise anything, can we just tweak it, and it's and, we can't promise anything, can wejust tweak it, and it's not sustainable in the long term. mel stride from the government said it is not sustainable in the very, very long term. william hague is saying to get rid of it. angela rayner of labour says we can't say what we will have in our manifesto, we can't commit. what's happening and why are they all saying this? it commit. what's happening and why are they all saying this?— they all saying this? it seems to me that nobody — they all saying this? it seems to me that nobody is _ they all saying this? it seems to me that nobody is facing _ they all saying this? it seems to me that nobody is facing up _ they all saying this? it seems to me that nobody is facing up to - they all saying this? it seems to me that nobody is facing up to what - they all saying this? it seems to me that nobody is facing up to what the j that nobody is facing up to what the triple lock actually is. they haven't come clean about the fact

that it protects a couple of bits of the state pension but not all of it. and that since we have got a new state pension since 2016 it is actually long overdue to review how it is working and make sure it is doing itsjob properly. it was introduced in 2011 and it was right for pensions to be properly protected and help them catch up because they had fallen behind. but we have got ourselves into a position where all politicians have tried to pretend thatjust having this triple lock means pensioners are all fine and dandy and there is no problem. pensioners, and to be fair, the media, have all used triple lock as a kind of totemic shorthand symbol of recognition that a political party does care about pensioners. but actually the poorest have never been even covered by the triple lock. and the 2.5% element has done its job and

triple lock. and the 2.5% element has done itsjob and run its course and maybe it's time to look at improving the way the protection works. it is absolutely vital we keep protection. the state pension in the uk is about the lowest in the world. we are certainly not one of the poorest countries in the world. it is made ranking in the western world, according to what i read. as you know, there are different ways of calculating this. but it is not at the top, that's for sure. so how would you continue to protect pensioners? do you have a new formula in mind?— pensioners? do you have a new formula in mind? one of the obvious thins ou formula in mind? one of the obvious things you should _ formula in mind? one of the obvious things you should be _ formula in mind? one of the obvious things you should be doing _ formula in mind? one of the obvious things you should be doing is - things you should be doing is saying, the 2.5%, we don't need. if inflation or earnings are only going up inflation or earnings are only going up by 1%, why should pensioners get 2.5? that's fine for me. we have had four orfive years since 2.5? that's fine for me. we have had four or five years since 2011 when

2.5% was given even though the rest of the economy didn't have that much. what you mustn't do is take away basic protection against price rises and falling behind the level of wages in the economy in the middle of a cost of living crisis. so let's have a review, let's plan it properly. you can find different ways of doing it, like the average of earnings and price rises over the past year. get of earnings and price rises over the ast ear. . ., , past year. get rid of the 2.596? gettin: past year. get rid of the 2.596? getting rid _ past year. get rid of the 2.596? getting rid of— past year. get rid of the 2.596? getting rid of the _ past year. get rid of the 2.596? getting rid of the 2.596 - past year. get rid of the 2.596? getting rid of the 2.596 is - past year. get rid of the 2.596? getting rid of the 2.596 is a - getting rid of the 2.5% is a no—brainerfor me. 50 getting rid of the 2.596 is a no-brainer for me. , ., ., .. no-brainer for me. so your formula, which we have _ no-brainer for me. so your formula, which we have now _ no-brainer for me. so your formula, which we have now coined, - no-brainer for me. so your formula, which we have now coined, is - no-brainer for me. so your formula, which we have now coined, is that i which we have now coined, is that pensions would rise by perhaps the highest, whether it is prices or wages, oran highest, whether it is prices or wages, or an average of the two, some median figure or whatever, but you get rid of the 2.5%. so it was or is at the moment, the rise would be the highest of 2.5%, or rise in

prices or wages. it be the highest of 2.596, or rise in prices or wages.— be the highest of 2.596, or rise in prices or wages. it is not relevant at the moment _ prices or wages. it is not relevant at the moment anyway _ prices or wages. it is not relevant at the moment anyway with - prices or wages. it is not relevant - at the moment anyway with inflation. it's not, i wasjust at the moment anyway with inflation. it's not, i was just thinking that, believe it or not. susan in southampton, good morning. how are you on this? i’m southampton, good morning. how are you on this?— you on this? i'm ok, yeah. i have 'ust you on this? i'm ok, yeah. i have just been — you on this? i'm ok, yeah. i have just been listening _ you on this? i'm ok, yeah. i have just been listening with _ you on this? i'm ok, yeah. i have just been listening with absolute | just been listening with absolute fascination. i am a pensioner and although— fascination. i am a pensioner and although i'm not english i have lived _ although i'm not english i have lived here 64 years. the one thing i am very— lived here 64 years. the one thing i am very aware of is ageism. i have discovered — am very aware of is ageism. i have discovered you get to a certain point _ discovered you get to a certain point in — discovered you get to a certain point in your life where you stop being _ point in your life where you stop being a — point in your life where you stop being a person and you become an a-e. being a person and you become an age. particularly if you are rolled, generally— age. particularly if you are rolled, generally you are kind of in the way _ generally you are kind of in the way im — generally you are kind of in the way im in— generally you are kind of in the way. i'm in a weird catch—22. i am living _ way. i'm in a weird catch—22. i am living on— way. i'm in a weird catch—22. i am living on a — way. i'm in a weird catch—22. i am living on a pension which isn't really— living on a pension which isn't really enough, thank god my son is

now my— really enough, thank god my son is now my lodger and he is paying a bit of rent _ now my lodger and he is paying a bit of rent i_ now my lodger and he is paying a bit of rent i am — now my lodger and he is paying a bit of rent. i am also still working and i of rent. i am also still working and i am _ of rent. i am also still working and i am happy— of rent. i am also still working and i am happy to still be working, but i am happy to still be working, but i can— i am happy to still be working, but i can never— i am happy to still be working, but i can never change jobs because of my age. _ i can never change jobs because of my age, nobody will employ me. sol can't increase my income independently. and now they are kind of saying. _ independently. and now they are kind of saying, you shouldn't have so much _ of saying, you shouldn't have so much pension. it's not fair. wow. anne marie _ much pension. it's not fair. wow. anne marie in _ much pension. it's not fair. wow. anne marie in exeter, _ much pension. it's not fair. wow. anne marie in exeter, what - much pension. it's not fair. wow. anne marie in exeter, what do i much pension. it's not fair. wow. l anne marie in exeter, what do you think? we are lining them up and hearing from them, as in you. this is something that affects all of us. my is something that affects all of us. my kids don't believe it but i keep telling them. is it fair? i my kids don't believe it but i keep telling them. is it fair?— telling them. is it fair? i was 'ust reactin: telling them. is it fair? i was 'ust reacting to — telling them. is it fair? i was 'ust reacting to the i telling them. is it fair? i was 'ust reacting to the young * telling them. is it fair? i was 'ust reacting to the young man i telling them. is it fair? i wasjust reacting to the young man who i telling them. is it fair? i wasjust - reacting to the young man who spoke earlier— reacting to the young man who spoke earlier about — reacting to the young man who spoke earlier about the _ reacting to the young man who spoke earlier about the older— reacting to the young man who spoke earlier about the older generation. i earlier about the older generation. i earlier about the older generation. hust— earlier about the older generation. ilust think — earlier about the older generation. ilust think that _ earlier about the older generation. i just think that actually— earlier about the older generation. i just think that actually blaming. i just think that actually blaming the older— i just think that actually blaming the older generation, _ i just think that actually blaming the older generation, each - the older generation, each generation— the older generation, each generation has— the older generation, each generation has its- the older generation, each generation has its own - the older generation, each - generation has its own stumbling blocks _ generation has its own stumbling

blocks and — generation has its own stumbling blocks and we _ generation has its own stumbling blocks and we should _ generation has its own stumbling blocks and we should have - generation has its own stumbling blocks and we should have a - generation has its own stumbling blocks and we should have a bit i generation has its own stumbling - blocks and we should have a bit more understanding — blocks and we should have a bit more understanding of _ blocks and we should have a bit more understanding of each _ blocks and we should have a bit more understanding of each generation. i understanding of each generation. also i_ understanding of each generation. also i think— understanding of each generation. also i think lobbying _ understanding of each generation. also i think lobbying our— understanding of each generation. also i think lobbying our local- understanding of each generation. j also i think lobbying our local mps with regard — also i think lobbying our local mps with regard to _ also i think lobbying our local mps with regard to how _ also i think lobbying our local mps with regard to how people - also i think lobbying our local mst with regard to how people manage pensions. — with regard to how people manage pensions, because _ with regard to how people manage pensions, because they _ with regard to how people manage pensions, because they can - with regard to how people manage pensions, because they can carry i pensions, because they can carry back— pensions, because they can carry back to _ pensions, because they can carry back to the — pensions, because they can carry back to the house _ pensions, because they can carry back to the house of _ pensions, because they can carry back to the house of commons. i pensions, because they can carryj back to the house of commons. i don't _ back to the house of commons. i don't actually _ back to the house of commons. i don't actually receive _ back to the house of commons. i don't actually receive a _ back to the house of commons. i don't actually receive a full- don't actually receive a full pension _ don't actually receive a full pension i_ don't actually receive a full pension. i took— don't actually receive a full pension. i took five - don't actually receive a full pension. i took five years i don't actually receive a full. pension. i took five years off don't actually receive a full- pension. i took five years off to care _ pension. i took five years off to care for— pension. i took five years off to care for my— pension. i took five years off to care for my family, _ pension. i took five years off to care for my family, my - pension. i took five years off to| care for my family, my children, pension. i took five years off to - care for my family, my children, so therefore _ care for my family, my children, so therefore i— care for my family, my children, so therefore i receive _ care for my family, my children, so therefore i receive below— care for my family, my children, so therefore i receive below the - care for my family, my children, so therefore i receive below the state| therefore i receive below the state pension. _ therefore i receive below the state pension. but— therefore i receive below the state pension. but i_ therefore i receive below the state pension, but i also— therefore i receive below the state pension, but i also have _ therefore i receive below the state pension, but i also have a - therefore i receive below the state pension, but i also have a nursingl pension, but i also have a nursing pension— pension, but i also have a nursing pension which _ pension, but i also have a nursing pension which i_ pension, but i also have a nursing pension which i am _ pension, but i also have a nursing pension which i am happy- pension, but i also have a nursing pension which i am happy with, l pension, but i also have a nursing. pension which i am happy with, but pension, but i also have a nursing i pension which i am happy with, but i struggle _ pension which i am happy with, but i struggle with — pension which i am happy with, but i struggle with everyday _ pension which i am happy with, but i struggle with everyday bills, - pension which i am happy with, but i struggle with everyday bills, just - struggle with everyday bills, just having _ struggle with everyday bills, just having the — struggle with everyday bills, just having the basics. _ struggle with everyday bills, just having the basics. i— struggle with everyday bills, just having the basics. i have - struggle with everyday bills, just having the basics. i have taken. struggle with everyday bills, justi having the basics. i have taken up struggle with everyday bills, just i having the basics. i have taken up a new having the basics. i have taken up a newjob _ having the basics. i have taken up a newjob now— having the basics. i have taken up a newjob now at— having the basics. i have taken up a newjob now at the _ having the basics. i have taken up a newjob now at the age _ having the basics. i have taken up a newjob now at the age of— having the basics. i have taken up a newjob now at the age of 74. - having the basics. i have taken up a newjob now at the age of 74. i- having the basics. i have taken up a newjob now at the age of 74. i aml newjob now at the age of 74. i am now a _ newjob now at the age of 74. i am now a therapist. _ newjob now at the age of 74. i am now a therapist, a _ newjob now at the age of 74. i am now a therapist, a reflexologist. . now a therapist, a reflexologist. brilliant — now a therapist, a reflexologist. brilliant. �* .. now a therapist, a reflexologist. brilliant. . ., , , now a therapist, a reflexologist. brilliant._ what i now a therapist, a reflexologist. j brilliant._ what a brilliant. and that helps. what a wonderful adventure. _ brilliant. and that helps. what a wonderful adventure. yes, - brilliant. and that helps. what a wonderful adventure. yes, it's i brilliant. and that helps. what a wonderful adventure. yes, it's a | brilliant. and that helps. what a - wonderful adventure. yes, it's a new life. it's wonderful adventure. yes, it's a new life- it's good. _ wonderful adventure. yes, it's a new life- it's good. a _ wonderful adventure. yes, it's a new life. it's good, a positive _ wonderful adventure. yes, it's a new life. it's good, a positive step. - life. it's good, a positive step. but i _ life. it's good, a positive step. but i think— life. it's good, a positive step. but i think we _ life. it's good, a positive step. but i think we all— life. it's good, a positive step. but i think we all struggle - life. it's good, a positive step. but i think we all struggle in i life. it's good, a positive step. i but i think we all struggle in our own way— but i think we all struggle in our own way and _ but i think we all struggle in our own way and it's _ but i think we all struggle in our own way and it's relevant - but i think we all struggle in our own way and it's relevant to - but i think we all struggle in ouri own way and it's relevant to each individual — own way and it's relevant to each individual lt— own way and it's relevant to each individual. . �* .

individual. it is. and here is another _ individual. it is. and here is another individual. - individual. it is. and here is another individual. ryan, i individual. it is. and here is. another individual. ryan, i'm interested in what ryan has to say and what everyone else thinks of it. over to you. just and what everyone else thinks of it. over to yon-— over to you. just listening, i think, over to you. just listening, i think. yeah. _ over to you. just listening, i think, yeah, in _ over to you. just listening, i think, yeah, in terms - over to you. just listening, i think, yeah, in terms of - over to you. just listening, i - think, yeah, in terms of pensions, i think, yeah, in terms of pensions, i think it should be means tested. people, think about it, people who have worked in high—profilejobs people, think about it, people who have worked in high—profile jobs who have worked in high—profile jobs who have earned a lot of money over the years, and people in normaljobs earning a basic wage. the amount of wealth they have, the amount of properties, and other savings and assets. should it be sort of means tested? . assets. should it be sort of means tested? , ., , ., �* tested? interesting. yeah, you're not the first _ tested? interesting. yeah, you're not the first person _ tested? interesting. yeah, you're not the first person to _ tested? interesting. yeah, you're not the first person to say - tested? interesting. yeah, you're not the first person to say that. i not the first person to say that. well, i think you are the first person to say it on the programme this morning. baroness ros altmann, what about that? would that save

money, means testing? so those pensioners, and there are some who are sitting on notjust asset rich but actually have a lot of cash as well. they shouldn't be given the same state pension, if anything at all? .. . same state pension, if anything at all? ., , ., ., same state pension, if anything at all? ., ,., ., , same state pension, if anything at all? ., ., ,, all? that is a real problem, because our whole pension _ all? that is a real problem, because our whole pension system _ all? that is a real problem, because our whole pension system is - all? that is a real problem, because our whole pension system is based. all? that is a real problem, because i our whole pension system is based on the idea that the state, in terms of your national insurance contributions while you are of working age, pays you just a basic minimum pension. it's not supposed to be enough to live on comfortably but it is supposed to be enough to live on without being plunged into poverty. and the idea is that you should save privately, get some incentives in private pensions or other savings so you won'tjust have to rely on the state pension. gordon brown in the early 20005 tried the idea, let'sjust brown in the early 20005 tried the idea, let's just give the poorest pensioners more money and not everybody else. and what did that

do? it put people off bothering to save at all, because anyone who wasn't sure they would be really well off as a pensioner would, while they were younger say, i won't be bothering saving because i will be punished for it later. the current system is sensible but it is not distributed equally. there are bits of the current system, like the tax—free winter fuel payments, that are worth far more to those with high income than low. why not roll that money in and tax it to customer it would save money for the public purse? why should people like me and other people i know get a tax—free winter fuel payment? i give my portion of that to charity. the state should be taxing it like a taxes other portions of people's pensions. but we don't want intergenerational strife. we are a country that needs to work together.

it is not an either or, we are getting a lot of that going on but it's not. .. getting a lot of that going on but it's not. ., , ., getting a lot of that going on but it's not. .. . ., . it's not. there are ways of cutting costs for the _ it's not. there are ways of cutting costs for the state _ it's not. there are ways of cutting costs for the state pension. - it's not. there are ways of cutting costs for the state pension. at i it's not. there are ways of cutting | costs for the state pension. at the moment you get a full pension after just 35 years national insurance. that is not a full working life. if you increase that to 45 years for example, it would save quite a lot of money and could also bring in money if people want to have a full pension where they pay voluntary extra contributions and that gives money to the inland revenue straightaway. that cuts costs to today's taxpayers. but all of us have lived through difficult times. the oldest pensioners went through the second world war, rationing after the war. most pensioners have gone through the 19705, the three—day week, the crash and inflation problems and everything. every generation has problems. what we mustn't do is up and the whole system just because in the short

term there is a cost of in crisis and protecting a very low state pension is costing quite a bit of money. pension is costing quite a bit of mone . ., pension is costing quite a bit of mone . . . , . pension is costing quite a bit of mone. , ., pension is costing quite a bit of mone. ,_ , ., money. hello jess. just going back to r an, money. hello jess. just going back to ryan. do _ money. hello jess. just going back to ryan. do you — money. hello jess. just going back to ryan, do you take _ money. hello jess. just going back to ryan, do you take that - money. hello jess. just going back to ryan, do you take that on - money. hello jess. just going backl to ryan, do you take that on board, interesting points from someone who has studied this a lot? what you think of what ros altmann said about unintended consequences? yeah. think of what ros altmann said about unintended consequences? yeah, she had a point. — unintended consequences? yeah, she had a point, there _ unintended consequences? yeah, she had a point, there should _ unintended consequences? yeah, she had a point, there should be - unintended consequences? yeah, she had a point, there should be some i had a point, there should be some sort of government intervention to see, looking to means tested pension schemes because it would balance out society a bit better, i think. just look into it. _ society a bit better, i think. just look into it, it's _ society a bit better, i think. just look into it, it's absolutely something i think a lot of people are beginning to edge towards. i think there is a strong case for a proper review. think there is a strong case for a proper review— think there is a strong case for a proper review. well said, you said it a whole lot _ proper review. well said, you said it a whole lot better _ proper review. well said, you said it a whole lot better than - proper review. well said, you said it a whole lot better than i - proper review. well said, you said it a whole lot better than i did. i it a whole lot better than i did. jessin it a whole lot better than i did. jess in the rhondda, good morning. your considered thoughts on the triple lock as politicians are

obfuscating. what do you think? i don't have an issue with the triple lock~ _ don't have an issue with the triple lock~ i'm — don't have an issue with the triple lock. i'm very fortunate both of my grandparents are still alive and both— grandparents are still alive and both are — grandparents are still alive and both are of pension age. my issue is that needs _ both are of pension age. my issue is that needs to be fairness for the younger— that needs to be fairness for the younger generation as well. i am 27 and have _ younger generation as well. i am 27 and have worked full—time since i left university. ijust had a daughter three weeks ago. congratulations. | daughter three weeks ago. congratulations.— daughter three weeks ago. congratulations. i am now in statutory _ congratulations. i am now in statutory maternity - congratulations. i am now in statutory maternity play - congratulations. i am now in - statutory maternity play mcpake, £172 per — statutory maternity play mcpake, £172 per week, there is no triple lock on— £172 per week, there is no triple lock on that and the costs are still going _ lock on that and the costs are still going up— lock on that and the costs are still going up for me and my husband. it's notjust— going up for me and my husband. it's notjust pensioners going up for me and my husband. it's not just pensioners where going up for me and my husband. it's notjust pensioners where inflation is affecting them, it is affecting everybody and there needs to be fairness — everybody and there needs to be fairness all around. i don't have the opportunity three weeks post birth to _ the opportunity three weeks post birth to have the opportunity to go out and _ birth to have the opportunity to go out and earn more money at this point _ out and earn more money at this point and — out and earn more money at this point and yet i am expected to pay my mortgage and pay all the other

costs— my mortgage and pay all the other costs as _ my mortgage and pay all the other costs as well as looking after a baby — costs as well as looking after a baby. with money that is not keeping up baby. with money that is not keeping up with— baby. with money that is not keeping up with the _ baby. with money that is not keeping up with the cost of living. when baby. with money that is not keeping up with the cost of living.— up with the cost of living. when you have a baby. _ up with the cost of living. when you have a baby, and _ up with the cost of living. when you have a baby, and it's _ up with the cost of living. when you have a baby, and it's a _ up with the cost of living. when you have a baby, and it's a time - up with the cost of living. when you have a baby, and it's a time of- have a baby, and it's a time of focus on the cycle of life, isn't it, i always think. you have a baby and think, my goodness me, i am a parent. the next thing you know you are a grandparent, jess. you're all heading towards it, jess. completely. i don't have any issues with the triple lock at all. it is something that is very useful and it assists pensioners in keeping up with those costs. but the costs are notjust going up for them and we need to consider everybody else as well. it's notjust those benefits and state benefits that need to be protected, it's everything else as

well. they would say let's balance the books here. i know a lot of people would say, we have the money, let's do it. and by the way, i love those beautiful squeaks in the background. she those beautiful squeaks in the background-— those beautiful squeaks in the backuround. ,, , , background. she is 'ust staring. that's background. she is 'ust staring. that-swath background. she is 'ust staring. that-s what 1h background. she is 'ust staring. that's what i do — background. she isjust staring. that's what i do every _ background. she isjust staring. that's what i do every morning. j background. she isjust staring. i that's what i do every morning. -- that's what i do every morning. —— just stirring. we can go to sheffield now.— just stirring. we can go to sheffield now. �* . , ., sheffield now. it's interesting what the previous _ sheffield now. it's interesting what the previous caller _ sheffield now. it's interesting what the previous caller was _ sheffield now. it's interesting what the previous caller was saying. i i the previous caller was saying. i have _ the previous caller was saying. i have three — the previous caller was saying. i have three children, _ the previous caller was saying. i have three children, the - the previous caller was saying. i. have three children, the youngest the previous caller was saying. i- have three children, the youngest is 18 months— have three children, the youngest is 18 months old _ have three children, the youngest is 18 months old. i— have three children, the youngest is 18 months old. i have _ have three children, the youngest is 18 months old. i have just _ have three children, the youngest is 18 months old. i have just left - have three children, the youngest is 18 months old. i have just left a i have three children, the youngest is 18 months old. i have just left a 15 l 18 months old. i have just left a 15 year teaching _ 18 months old. i have just left a 15 year teaching career— 18 months old. i have just left a 15 year teaching career because - 18 months old. i have just left a 15 year teaching career because i- 18 months old. i have just left a 15. year teaching career because i can't afford _ year teaching career because i can't afford to— year teaching career because i can't afford to work— year teaching career because i can't afford to work because _ year teaching career because i can't afford to work because i _ year teaching career because i can't afford to work because i have - year teaching career because i can't afford to work because i have to - year teaching career because i can't| afford to work because i have to pay to work— afford to work because i have to pay to work and — afford to work because i have to pay to work and those _ afford to work because i have to pay to work and those costs _ afford to work because i have to pay to work and those costs would - afford to work because i have to pay i to work and those costs would exceed my incoma _ to work and those costs would exceed my incoma my— to work and those costs would exceed my income. my husband _ to work and those costs would exceed my income. my husband has - to work and those costs would exceed my income. my husband has a - to work and those costs would exceed my income. my husband has a good . to work and those costs would exceed i

my income. my husband has a good job working _ my income. my husband has a good job working for— my income. my husband has a good job working for the — my income. my husband has a good job working for the local— my income. my husband has a good job working for the local council. _ my income. my husband has a good job working for the local council. we - working for the local council. we have _ working for the local council. we have always _ working for the local council. we have always been _ working for the local council. we have always been very— working for the local council. we have always been very sensible. | working for the local council. we i have always been very sensible. we don't _ have always been very sensible. we don't have _ have always been very sensible. we don't have things _ have always been very sensible. we don't have things that _ have always been very sensible. we don't have things that we _ have always been very sensible. we don't have things that we are - have always been very sensible. we don't have things that we are ofteni don't have things that we are often criticised _ don't have things that we are often criticised for — don't have things that we are often criticised for having _ don't have things that we are often criticised for having like _ criticised for having like subscriptions _ criticised for having like subscriptions and - criticised for having like subscriptions and great | criticised for having like i subscriptions and great big criticised for having like _ subscriptions and great big holidays and those _ subscriptions and great big holidays and those kinds _ subscriptions and great big holidays and those kinds of _ subscriptions and great big holidays and those kinds of things, - subscriptions and great big holidays and those kinds of things, yet- subscriptions and great big holidays and those kinds of things, yet we i and those kinds of things, yet we still use — and those kinds of things, yet we still use the — and those kinds of things, yet we still use the food _ and those kinds of things, yet we still use the food bank, _ and those kinds of things, yet we still use the food bank, we - and those kinds of things, yet we still use the food bank, we are i still use the food bank, we are having — still use the food bank, we are having tom _ still use the food bank, we are having t0- - -— still use the food bank, we are havin: to... ~' ., . . having to... eking it out. we have 'ust lost having to... eking it out. we have just lost the _ having to... eking it out. we have just lost the line. _ having to... eking it out. we have just lost the line. it _ having to... eking it out. we have just lost the line. it is _ having to... eking it out. we have just lost the line. it is pay - having to... eking it out. we have just lost the line. it is pay packetl just lost the line. it is pay packet to pay packet for so many people at the moment. we will try to get you back if we can. let's go to susan in coventry. good morning. it is always indelicate to ask people this but are you of pensionable age? i am indelicate to ask people this but are you of pensionable age? i am a pensioner. — are you of pensionable age? i am a pensioner. ves- — are you of pensionable age? i am a pensioner, yes. i— are you of pensionable age? i am a pensioner, yes. i do _ are you of pensionable age? i am a pensioner, yes. i do look— are you of pensionable age? i am a pensioner, yes. i do look forward l are you of pensionable age? i am a| pensioner, yes. i do look forward to the rise _ pensioner, yes. i do look forward to the rise in— pensioner, yes. i do look forward to the rise in april because i don't see any— the rise in april because i don't see any of— the rise in april because i don't see any of my state pension at all because _ see any of my state pension at all because it — see any of my state pension at all because it covers my rent, council

tax, _ because it covers my rent, council tax. food — because it covers my rent, council tax, food and fuel bills, and sometimes it's not enough to cover it at att~ _ sometimes it's not enough to cover it at att~ my— sometimes it's not enough to cover it at all. my rent last april went up it at all. my rent last april went up by— it at all. my rent last april went up by 7% — it at all. my rent last april went up by 7% and my council tax went up by 5%~ _ up by 7% and my council tax went up by 5%~ and _ up by 7% and my council tax went up by 5%~ and i— up by 7% and my council tax went up by 5%. and i do not qualify for pension— by 5%. and i do not qualify for pension credit. some people can be 'ust pension credit. some people can be just 60a _ pension credit. some people can be just 60p over the limit and i don't guatifv _ just 60p over the limit and i don't guatifv i— just 60p over the limit and i don't qualify. i paid into a private pension— qualify. i paid into a private pension while i was working so that i pension while i was working so that i could _ pension while i was working so that icoutd be _ pension while i was working so that i could be comfortable in retirement, but i'm not. iam uncomfortable. i have to watch every pennv _ uncomfortable. i have to watch every pennv i_ uncomfortable. i have to watch every penny. iatso — uncomfortable. i have to watch every penny. i also pay tax on that as wett~ _ penny. i also pay tax on that as well. , ., , , penny. i also pay tax on that as well. , . , , so penny. i also pay tax on that as well._ so state | well. yes, absolutely. so state ension well. yes, absolutely. so state pension covers _ well. yes, absolutely. so state pension covers everything - well. yes, absolutely. so state pension covers everything and| well. yes, absolutely. so state| pension covers everything and i well. yes, absolutely. so state - pension covers everything and ijust have to _ pension covers everything and ijust have to live — pension covers everything and ijust have to live on the small pension that i_ have to live on the small pension that i paid — have to live on the small pension that i paid into. it have to live on the small pension that i paid into.— that i paid into. it must stick in the crawl— that i paid into. it must stick in the crawl when _ that i paid into. it must stick in the crawl when you _ that i paid into. it must stick in the crawl when you hear - that i paid into. it must stick in | the crawl when you hear people that i paid into. it must stick in - the crawl when you hear people say, pensioners have loads of money. yes.

sometimes you _ pensioners have loads of money. yes. sometimes you hear _ pensioners have loads of money. yes. sometimes you hear somebody say, i've sometimes you hear somebody say, we got— sometimes you hear somebody say, we got the — sometimes you hear somebody say, i've got the £300 cost of living rise, _ i've got the £300 cost of living rise. the — i've got the £300 cost of living rise, the cost of living payment. and in— rise, the cost of living payment. and in the — rise, the cost of living payment. and in the next sentence they come out with. _ and in the next sentence they come out with. so— and in the next sentence they come outwith, so i booked a holiday. i out with, so i booked a holiday. i haven't— outwith, so i booked a holiday. i haven't had — outwith, so i booked a holiday. i haven't had a holiday since i don't know— haven't had a holiday since i don't know when — haven't had a holiday since i don't know when. i haven't had a holiday since i don't know when-— haven't had a holiday since i don't know when. i really appreciate you callin: to know when. i really appreciate you calling to stop _ know when. i really appreciate you calling to stop a — know when. i really appreciate you calling to stop a text, _ know when. i really appreciate you calling to stop a text, my - know when. i really appreciate you calling to stop a text, my parents. calling to stop a text, my parents worked all their lives in two or threejobs. i'm fed up of people saying young people have it hard now. people are claiming benefits they are not entitled to, they have never worked and they think they are entitled. let pensioners live comfortable and let young people work the same way to fund their old age. that is from anonymous. not far away from your point, susan. let's go with michael in derby. and i have to say, a big response on this. michael, have your say, to say, a big response on this. michael, have yoursay, i might to say, a big response on this. michael, have your say, i might have to interrupt because time is short,

but what do you think? goad to interrupt because time is short, but what do you think? good morning. the gentleman — but what do you think? good morning. the gentleman that _ but what do you think? good morning. the gentleman that rang _ but what do you think? good morning. the gentleman that rang up _ but what do you think? good morning. the gentleman that rang up about - the gentleman that rang up about saying _ the gentleman that rang up about saying it _ the gentleman that rang up about saying it is — the gentleman that rang up about saying it is means— the gentleman that rang up about saying it is means tested - the gentleman that rang up about saying it is means tested and - the gentleman that rang up abouti saying it is means tested and that, that's— saying it is means tested and that, that's not— saying it is means tested and that, that's not quite _ saying it is means tested and that, that's not quite right. _ saying it is means tested and that, that's not quite right. if— saying it is means tested and that, that's not quite right. if you - saying it is means tested and that, that's not quite right. if you pay. that's not quite right. if you pay into the — that's not quite right. if you pay into the system, _ that's not quite right. if you pay into the system, you _ that's not quite right. if you pay into the system, you are - that's not quite right. if you pay. into the system, you are entitled that's not quite right. if you pay- into the system, you are entitled to take out _ into the system, you are entitled to take out of— into the system, you are entitled to take out of the _ into the system, you are entitled to take out of the system, _ into the system, you are entitled to take out of the system, right? - into the system, you are entitled to take out of the system, right? findl take out of the system, right? and ou have take out of the system, right? and you have done _ take out of the system, right? you have done your bit and paid take out of the system, right?- you have done your bit and paid in. i hear that. you have done your bit and paid in. i hear that-— you have done your bit and paid in. i hear that. yeah, you have paid in. you have to — i hear that. yeah, you have paid in. you have to realise _ i hear that. yeah, you have paid in. you have to realise that _ i hear that. yeah, you have paid in. you have to realise that things - i hear that. yeah, you have paid in. you have to realise that things like | you have to realise that things like france, _ you have to realise that things like france, they— you have to realise that things like france, they went _ you have to realise that things like france, they went from _ you have to realise that things like france, they went from 62 - you have to realise that things like france, they went from 62 to - you have to realise that things like france, they went from 62 to 64 l you have to realise that things like i france, they went from 62 to 64 and there _ france, they went from 62 to 64 and there were _ france, they went from 62 to 64 and there were riots _ france, they went from 62 to 64 and there were riots and _ france, they went from 62 to 64 and there were riots and everything. - france, they went from 62 to 64 and there were riots and everything. we| there were riots and everything. we went from _ there were riots and everything. we went from 67 — there were riots and everything. we went from 67 to— there were riots and everything. we went from 67 to 68 _ there were riots and everything. we went from 67 to 68 and _ there were riots and everything. we went from 67 to 68 and nobody- there were riots and everything. we went from 67 to 68 and nobody has| went from 67 to 68 and nobody has said nothing — went from 67 to 68 and nobody has said nothing about _ went from 67 to 68 and nobody has said nothing about it. _ went from 67 to 68 and nobody has said nothing about it.— went from 67 to 68 and nobody has said nothing about it. thank you for raising that — said nothing about it. thank you for raising that as _ said nothing about it. thank you for raising that as well. _ said nothing about it. thank you for raising that as well. look— said nothing about it. thank you for raising that as well. look at - said nothing about it. thank you for raising that as well. look at the - raising that as well. look at the riots, it was young people involved in the riots. i know they love a bit of a right down there. young people realising, they were incredibly invested in that issue. ronnie in pouille. 80 years young, what do you think of this? just

pouille. 80 years young, what do you think of this?— think of this? just a quick one, i know you _ think of this? just a quick one, i know you are — think of this? just a quick one, i know you are short _ think of this? just a quick one, i know you are short on _ think of this? just a quick one, i know you are short on time. - think of this? just a quick one, i know you are short on time. i i know you are short on time. i received _ know you are short on time. i received a _ know you are short on time. i received a letter from pensionsjust before _ received a letter from pensionsjust before my— received a letter from pensionsjust before my 80th birthday saying from the iith _ before my 80th birthday saying from the iith of— before my 80th birthday saying from the 11th of september your pension will increase, wait for it, 25p per week _ will increase, wait for it, 25p per week. ., will increase, wait for it, 25p per week. no. 160.85 perweek. i started week. no. 160.85 per week. i started work week. n@160.85 perweek. i started work 'ust week. idr>.160.85 perweek. i started workjust before i was 15. i shouldn't— workjust before i was 15. i shouldn't have done but i did. i have _ shouldn't have done but i did. i have paid — shouldn't have done but i did. i have paid in every single stamp, never— have paid in every single stamp, never claimed a state benefit apart from statutory sick pay. and i have worked _ from statutory sick pay. and i have worked full—time until about 75, i had to, _ worked full—time until about 75, i had to, part — worked full—time until about 75, i had to, part time until 77 when my body— had to, part time until 77 when my body started to let me down. i had a very physicaljob and that's what i did. because i was claiming my pension— did. because i was claiming my pension before 2016i get the basic state pension which is now risen to the magical—

state pension which is now risen to the magical amount of 160.85. state pension which is now risen to the magicalamount of160.85. is that the — the magicalamount of160.85. is that the way to treat people? it�*s a that the way to treat people? it's a ve aood that the way to treat people? it's a very good question _ that the way to treat people? it's a very good question to _ that the way to treat people? it�*s —. very good question to hang in the air. ronnie, i'm sure you have more to say. would you like to come back and speak to our politicians about this because i think yours would be an excellent point? i this because i think yours would be an excellent point?— this because i think yours would be an excellent point? i would be quite ha - to an excellent point? i would be quite happy to speak _ an excellent point? i would be quite happy to speak to — an excellent point? i would be quite happy to speak to the _ an excellent point? i would be quite happy to speak to the politicians, i happy to speak to the politicians, yes. happy to speak to the politicians, es. ., y ., happy to speak to the politicians, es. ., , ., _ happy to speak to the politicians, es. ., i. _ . happy to speak to the politicians, yes. thought you might say that. we will aet yes. thought you might say that. we will net the yes. thought you might say that. we will get the team _ yes. thought you might say that. we will get the team to _ yes. thought you might say that. we will get the team to get _ yes. thought you might say that. we will get the team to get back- yes. thought you might say that. we will get the team to get back to - will get the team to get back to you. you have contribute it so much to our society as well. i think you will be an excellent spokesperson for the senior citizens, as the americans put it.— for the senior citizens, as the americans put it. they can ask me any question _ americans put it. they can ask me any question they _ americans put it. they can ask me any question they want _ americans put it. they can ask me any question they want and - americans put it. they can ask me any question they want and they i americans put it. they can ask me l any question they want and they will -et any question they want and they will get an— any question they want and they will get an honest answer. if any question they want and they will get an honest answer.— get an honest answer. if only it were the other _ get an honest answer. if only it were the other way _ get an honest answer. if only it were the other way around. - get an honest answer. if only it - were the other way around. exactly, es. were the other way around. exactly, yes- thank — were the other way around. exactly, yes- thank you. _ were the other way around. exactly, yes. thank you, thank— were the other way around. exactly, yes. thank you, thank you. - were the other way around. exactly, yes. thank you, thank you. the - were the other way around. exactly, | yes. thank you, thank you. the news channel and —

yes. thank you, thank you. the news channel and bbc _ yes. thank you, thank you. the news channel and bbc two _ yes. thank you, thank you. the news channel and bbc two will _ yes. thank you, thank you. the news channel and bbc two will leave - yes. thank you, thank you. the news channel and bbc two will leave us i channel and bbc two will leave us now. live from london, this is bbc news. president putin has promised help for north korea's space programme

during talks with kim jong—un in russia. more jong—un in russia. than 5000 people are dead in libya more than 5000 people are dead in libya after two dams collapsed in the city of derna, causing devastating floods. ukraine says a missile attack has been carried out on the black sea fleet. new figures show the uk economy shrank by 0.5% injuly. a sharper drop than expected. hello. we'll bring you more on the flooding in libya shortly, but first, the north korean leader kim jong—un and the russian president vladimir putin have finished talks at the vostochny space centre in the far east of russia. a video of mr putin welcoming mr kim was published on the kremlin's official telegram channel.

it's the first trip abroad the north korean leader