�* rape, �*rape, sexual assault �* rape, sexual assault and accused of rape, sexual assault and emotional abuse. accused of rape, sexual assault and emotionalabuse. forwomen accused of rape, sexual assault and emotional abuse. for women have made allegations as part of an investigation by the times, the sunday times and channel 4 dispatches. allegations he denies. since publication, the times has said it has been contacted by several women with claims about brand but the claims have not yet been investigated and will now be rigorously checked. he denies all the allegations. the met has responded to the accusation saying it encourages victims of sexual assault to contact the police spokesperson. —— the spokesperson said they are aware of allegations of sexual assault but have not received reports in relation to this. what do you think about this? what does it say about the entertainment industry? what does it say about russell brand? what does it say about how things have

changed, or not, as the case may be? what does it say about women's ability to come forward and talk about this? get in touch. 08085 text will be charged at your standard network rate. that is what we are talking about, the comedian.— that is what we are talking about, the comedian. . . , , the comedian. social media wellness uuru, the comedian. social media wellness guru. russell — the comedian. social media wellness guru, russell brand, _ the comedian. social media wellness guru, russell brand, get— the comedian. social media wellness guru, russell brand, get again, - the comedian. social media wellness guru, russell brand, get again, he i guru, russell brand, get again, he has denied claims he has sexually assaulted women in the height of his fame. �* �* . ., ., fame. the bbc and channel 4 have launched investigations _ fame. the bbc and channel 4 have launched investigations into - fame. the bbc and channel 4 have launched investigations into the i launched investigations into the past behaviour of the comedian russell brand after allegations of rape and sexual assault. he denies

the claims and says all his relationships have been consensual. the former prime minister, liz truss, will use a speech today, almost a year after her mini budget, to urge the government to change course on the economy. she will also defend the financial decision she made in office. five metropolitan police officers will attend a gross misconduct meeting today. the couple were stocked with their baby three years ago. new figures suggest the cost of renting a home in britain went up by an average of 12% in the year to august. the estate agent hampton says new tenants are playing £140 more each month and they were one year ago. —— are paying £140 more each month.

so, were you surprised about what you learned so, were you surprised about what you [earned over the weekend? he did a sell—out gig, didn't he? he has been impossible to cancel. he has gone beyond the mainstream media and gone beyond the mainstream media and gone into a different realm, the realm into his own youtube account, his own instagram. he has zillions of followers. as he often has in his career, he has reinvented himself. he is now a wellness guru. certainly thatis he is now a wellness guru. certainly that is central to his current shtick. bbc and channel 4 have launched investigations into his alleged behaviour and the metropolitan police say they have started to make inquiries. over the weekend, before the documentary was aired, the dispatches documentary on channel 4 which went out on saturday

night, russell brand posted a video on social media to deny the claims. i was very, very promiscuous. during that time of promiscuity, the relationships i had were absolutely always consensual. i was always transparent about that. to see that transparency metastasised into something criminal that i absolutely deny, makes me question, is there another agenda at play? and deny, makes me question, is there another agenda at play?— another agenda at play? and his idiosyncratic _ another agenda at play? and his idiosyncratic use _ another agenda at play? and his idiosyncratic use of _ another agenda at play? and his idiosyncratic use of the - another agenda at play? and his idiosyncratic use of the english | idiosyncratic use of the english language did not desert him in that particular clip. he also claimed the investigation by channel 4 and the sunday times amounted to a coordinated attack against him. what coordinated attack against him. what i refute is these _ coordinated attack against him. what i refute is these very, _ coordinated attack against him. wiat i refute is these very, very serious criminal allegations. also, it is worth mentioning that there are witnesses whose evidence directly contradicts the narratives that these two mainstream media outlets are trying to construct, apparently, in what seems to me to be, and

coordinated attack. —— a coordinated attack. coordinated attack. -- a coordinated attack. �* , coordinated attack. -- a coordinated attack. 3 ,, a' coordinated attack. -- a coordinated attack. �*, , , ., ~ ., ., attack. let's speak to the former bbc one controller, _ attack. let's speak to the former bbc one controller, former... i attack. let's speak to the former| bbc one controller, former... hi, kerry's as well. were you surprised at these allegations? we kerry's as well. were you surprised at these allegations?— at these allegations? we have got whatsa - at these allegations? we have got whatsapp grows _ at these allegations? we have got whatsapp groups in _ at these allegations? we have got whatsapp groups in the _ at these allegations? we have got whatsapp groups in the industry l at these allegations? we have got i whatsapp groups in the industry that highlight— whatsapp groups in the industry that highlight people that we should be aware _ highlight people that we should be aware of — highlight people that we should be aware of. itjust takes highlight people that we should be aware of. it just takes time for these — aware of. it just takes time for these peoples names to come to light _ these peoples names to come to liuht. ~ , ., these peoples names to come to liuht.~ , ., i. these peoples names to come to liuht.~ , ., ~ these peoples names to come to liuht.~ , ~ , ., these peoples names to come to liuht.~ , ., ~ , ., ., light. why do you think they had not come to light _ light. why do you think they had not come to light hitherto? _ light. why do you think they had not come to light hitherto? i _ light. why do you think they had not come to light hitherto? i can - light. why do you think they had not come to light hitherto? i can only i come to light hitherto? i can only relate back— come to light hitherto? i can only relate back to _ come to light hitherto? i can only relate back to katherine - come to light hitherto? i can only relate back to katherine ryan i relate back to katherine ryan mentioning it quite a while ago. she

even, _ mentioning it quite a while ago. she even. at _ mentioning it quite a while ago. she even. at her— mentioning it quite a while ago. she even, at her profile, her level of profile, — even, at her profile, her level of profile, she _ even, at her profile, her level of profile, she was unable to say his name _ profile, she was unable to say his name to— profile, she was unable to say his name to anybody during any interview and she _ name to anybody during any interview and she blamed it on litigation and things— and she blamed it on litigation and things like — and she blamed it on litigation and things like that. it comes down to the fact— things like that. it comes down to the fact that the backlash off of is not worth— the fact that the backlash off of is not worth coming out and saying it. it is strength in numbers, to an extent, isn't it?— it is strength in numbers, to an extent, isn't it? like we have seen this morning. _ extent, isn't it? like we have seen this morning, the _ extent, isn't it? like we have seen this morning, the programme i extent, isn't it? like we have seen| this morning, the programme goes extent, isn't it? like we have seen i this morning, the programme goes out on saturday— this morning, the programme goes out on saturday night and this morning we have _ on saturday night and this morning we have more women coming forward because _ we have more women coming forward because one — we have more women coming forward because one person has made that stand _ because one person has made that stand. he— because one person has made that stand. ., _, , , stand. he of course denies there was ever anything — stand. he of course denies there was ever anything nonconsensual, - stand. he of course denies there was ever anything nonconsensual, i- stand. he of course denies there was ever anything nonconsensual, i have| ever anything nonconsensual, i have to say that, i have to remind people of that. how did you see, knowing about the allegations against him from other people in the industry, knowing about the alleged experiences that they had had, of him, how did you feel? how did others feel seeing him being lauded? this is the thing. he had time to

-et this is the thing. he had time to get his— this is the thing. he had time to get his story and his video right there — get his story and his video right there the _ get his story and his video right there. the fact that most of us were in green _ there. the fact that most of us were in green rooms and 9pm on saturday night _ in green rooms and 9pm on saturday night and _ in green rooms and 9pm on saturday night and his show was going on in wemhley. — night and his show was going on in wembley, we were all observing the videos. _ wembley, we were all observing the videos. the — wembley, we were all observing the videos, the standing ovations and the applause as he came on stage which _ the applause as he came on stage which undermines what we are trying to do— which undermines what we are trying to do and _ which undermines what we are trying to do and it _ which undermines what we are trying to do and it kind of puts us in a position— to do and it kind of puts us in a position where what is the point in speaking _ position where what is the point in speaking out? i spoke out at the weekend — speaking out? i spoke out at the weekend online and some of the comments i got online are just disgusting and it makes you think why would i bother? why put myself out there _ why would i bother? why put myself out there to get this abuse back? goes _ out there to get this abuse back? goes like — out there to get this abuse back? goes like he has a whole phalanx of sopporters— goes like he has a whole phalanx of supporters who ascribe to and subscribe _ supporters who ascribe to and subscribe to his channels and agree with some — subscribe to his channels and agree with some of the views expressed. he has gone _

with some of the views expressed. he has gone into, as some would say, the dark— has gone into, as some would say, the dark realms of conspiracy theories _ the dark realms of conspiracy theories. | the dark realms of conspiracy theories. . . . the dark realms of conspiracy theories. ., ., , ., theories. i made a list of some of theories. i made a list of some of the videos _ theories. i made a list of some of the videos that _ theories. i made a list of some of the videos that he _ theories. i made a list of some of the videos that he has _ theories. i made a list of some of the videos that he has come i theories. i made a list of some of the videos that he has come out i the videos that he has come out with. he has got 3.8 million accounts on instagram, 2.2 million on tiktoker, 6.6 million on youtube and the video is now often features interviews with what some describe as far right influences. it has been as far right influences. it has been a long politicaljourney for him. he was praised to the skies and platform not so long up —— long ago by the guardian. videos he posted in recent weeks include titles such as what really started the hawaii fire? state of fear, covert propaganda expose —— covid propaganda exposed. there is a massive audience for that stuff. they will, no suggestion, somebody

like this who is a current avatar could do wrong. their kneejerk is that it could do wrong. their kneejerk is thatitis could do wrong. their kneejerk is that it is the msm and the powers that it is the msm and the powers that be fighting back and trying to discredit him. you probably got a lash back from that.— discredit him. you probably got a lash back from that. yes. let's not be under any _ lash back from that. yes. let's not be under any illusion. _ lash back from that. yes. let's not be under any illusion. russell- lash back from that. yes. let's not. be under any illusion. russell brand has known _ be under any illusion. russell brand has known this is coming. he has had time to— has known this is coming. he has had time to build — has known this is coming. he has had time to build this channel and control— time to build this channel and control the narrative. one of our comedian— control the narrative. one of our comedian colleagues spoke out about it at the _ comedian colleagues spoke out about it at the weekend. he has now come of social— it at the weekend. he has now come of social media because russell brand's— of social media because russell brand's cult or something, they are all coming — brand's cult or something, they are all coming for him. if anybody is listening — all coming for him. if anybody is listening to this today, i will probably get a backlash. he has known _ probably get a backlash. he has known this is coming. anybody who has done _ known this is coming. anybody who has done anything like this knows it is only— has done anything like this knows it is only a _ has done anything like this knows it is only a matter of time they can -et is only a matter of time they can get prepared, they can get their

ducks— get prepared, they can get their ducks in— get prepared, they can get their ducks in a — get prepared, they can get their ducks in a row and they can be ready to come _ ducks in a row and they can be ready to come out— ducks in a row and they can be ready to come out fighting, as and when they need — to come out fighting, as and when they need to, which is what he has done _ they need to, which is what he has done i_ they need to, which is what he has done. . , they need to, which is what he has done. ., _,, they need to, which is what he has done. ., i. ,, .., they need to, which is what he has done. ., _,, .., done. i really appreciate you coming on and talking _ done. i really appreciate you coming on and talking about _ done. i really appreciate you coming on and talking about this _ done. i really appreciate you coming on and talking about this because, l on and talking about this because, as you say, it is not easy, it is not easy for women to talk about this, not easy for victims to talk about this or survivors, i should say, and there is that he has been held in high esteem by many out there. he denies the allegations and he says that although that is! he ever had was consensual as well. you were in the — ever had was consensual as well. ym. were in the documentary, ever had was consensual as well. you were in the documentary, speaking i were in the documentary, speaking eloauentl were in the documentary, speaking eloquently about _ were in the documentary, speaking eloquently about the _ were in the documentary, speaking eloquently about the industry. i were in the documentary, speaking eloquently about the industry. the | eloquently about the industry. the industry back then, do you think back, lorraine, and think about how people said and did such stuff unchallenged? the people said and did such stuff unchallenged?— people said and did such stuff unchallenged? people said and did such stuff unchallenred? , ., _ unchallenged? the first thing to say is it is not that _ unchallenged? the first thing to say is it is not that long _ unchallenged? the first thing to say is it is not that long ago. _ unchallenged? the first thing to say is it is not that long ago. it - unchallenged? the first thing to say is it is not that long ago. it is i is it is not that long ago. it is not likejimmy is it is not that long ago. it is not like jimmy savile is it is not that long ago. it is not likejimmy savile that is it is not that long ago. it is not like jimmy savile that was not likejimmy savile that was in the past, in the previous century.

this was in the 20005. let's not think that it was the dim and distant past, it wasn't. i don't think it would be acceptable to say anything like that. i'm amazed it was acceptable at that time, quite frankly. the output than i have heard breached all sorts of bbc guidelines wa5 heard breached all sorts of bbc guidelines was not i'm amazed that it wasn't referred up earlier and that he wasn't brought to book over it, frankly. that he wasn't brought to book over it, frankl . ., ., , ., it, frankly. there are all sorts of stories coming _ it, frankly. there are all sorts of stories coming out _ it, frankly. there are all sorts of stories coming out about - it, frankly. there are all sorts of| stories coming out about getting it, frankly. there are all sorts of i stories coming out about getting bbc 5torie5 coming out about getting bbc driver5, not quite sure what a bbc driver5, not quite sure what a bbc driver is but i presume it is somebody who is hired by... there isn't a bbc fleet but it is somebody, a cab, ora isn't a bbc fleet but it is somebody, a cab, or a car, isn't a bbc fleet but it is somebody, a cab, ora car, hired by the bbc to take 5omebody from hiv. there is an allegation that he got this particular car —— 5omebody from a to b. what do channel 4 do now? what do the bbc do now? bart

launched an investigation? rather than looking _ launched an investigation? rather than looking backwards, - launched an investigation? rather than looking backwards, and i launched an investigation? rather than looking backwards, and it i launched an investigation? rather than looking backwards, and it is| than looking backwards, and it is important that we do look backward5 important that we do look backwards and that there is some kind of investigation, but we need to look forward and how do we stop the sort of thing happening in the future? one of the things that worries me is there is not a independent whistle—blower, whistle—blowing line, within an organisation that people can go to. they have to make their complaints of the editorial chain or to people who could affect their future careers or maybe even to people who might be in some ways in cahoots with the people who are transgre55ing, or, if you like, they can go to the broadcaster or commi55ioner but those people are controlling the purse 5tring5. if there was an independent per5on there was an independent person within the bbc or larger companies, that will be really good. if we had a network of those people, perhap5 a network of those people, perhaps they could compare notes and when

they could compare notes and when they were repeated complaints of a similar nature about an individual, you would start to build up a picture and people could make a stand about it. we have a freelance 5tand about it. we have a freelance culture now and it is really difficult for young people starting out in their careers when they are often on three—month contracts or less, to speak out if they are witnessing abuse or in any way being abused or the subject of discrimination. i abused or the sub'ect of discrimination.i abused or the sub'ect of discrimination. ., ., . ., abused or the sub'ect of discrimination. ., ., _, . ,, discrimination. i want to come back to ce s. discrimination. i want to come back to cerys- in — discrimination. i want to come back to cerys- in a _ discrimination. i want to come back to cerys. in a minute. _ discrimination. ! want to come back to cerys. in a minute. what- discrimination. i want to come back to cerys. in a minute. what about | to cery5. in a minute. what about this thing that has been mentioned in the past and in the present and it will be mentioned in the future, the story in the newspaper about joan collins talking about marilyn monroe and marilyn monroe over a couple of martinis wa5 monroe and marilyn monroe over a couple of martinis was telling people about this culture that we are talking about, allegations just

like this back in the 505, the star power, the studio power, the power of men, the power differential. tell me a little bit about that walking, talking, powerful charisma that is ignored but it is also so seductive. i think everybody wants to get the best artist they can on their shows and the very top artists are in demand so there is a culture around pandering to on—5creen talent. i don't know if you have ever been pandered to, nicki...— don't know if you have ever been pandered to, nicki... absolute not, uuite the pandered to, nicki... absolute not, quite the opposite. _ pandered to, nicki... absolute not, quite the opposite. we _ pandered to, nicki... absolute not, quite the opposite. we treat - pandered to, nicki... absolute not, quite the opposite. we treat the i quite the opposite. we treat the on-air face _ quite the opposite. we treat the on-air face of _ quite the opposite. we treat the on-air face of the _ quite the opposite. we treat the on-air face of the show - quite the opposite. we treat the on-air face of the show better . quite the opposite. we treat the i on-air face of the show better than on—air face of the show better than the people working on the shows. they get cars ferrying them back and forth, they have their make—up done, if they want a certain drink, they get a certain drink. they are very

minor examples but in general people want to please those artists and i think now there are times when it goes too far, when the line hasn't goe5 too far, when the line hasn't been drawn, when people have behaved badly, whether that is through ill temper or violence or aggression or whether it's through indeed sexual abuse. .. . whether it's through indeed sexual abuse. . . . whether it's through indeed sexual abuse. ., , .,, whether it's through indeed sexual abuse. ., , ., , , abuse. that is turning a blind eye, that is what _ abuse. that is turning a blind eye, that is what i'm _ abuse. that is turning a blind eye, that is what i'm trying _ abuse. that is turning a blind eye, that is what i'm trying to - abuse. that is turning a blind eye, that is what i'm trying to get i abuse. that is turning a blind eye, that is what i'm trying to get to. l that is what i'm trying to get to. the people who have this miasma of stardom and others turn a blind eye. well, they shouldn't. certainly if any instance like that has ever been referred to me, i have not turned a blind eye. nobody is irreplaceable and we've seen that time and time again, even with people who we think are irreplaceable, when they do move on, we find somebody else. there is a lot of talent out there and i think it is time for everybody to take a stronger line against any kind of bad behaviour. this could be

on air and presenters. if we all hold together on that, it will work. lorraine, you are well known in the industry for not turning a blind eye, might i say. scott brown, tv critic, what is your take on all of this? i critic, what is your take on all of this? ~ , ., , , , this? i think this raises big questions _ this? i think this raises big questions for _ this? i think this raises big | questions for broadcasters. this? i think this raises big i questions for broadcasters. it is unsurprising that such investigations have been launched. it is also going to be quite difficult for such broadcasters to look back at such historic allegations simply because, as you well know, management changes, leadership changes, staff changes. russell brand wa5 leadership changes, staff changes. russell brand was at the bbc until 2006, 2008. big brother, which was what russell brand wa5 2006, 2008. big brother, which was what russell brand was attached to on channel 4 has since been on channel five, it has switched different broadcasters. and of

course there is also the fact that this is, as lorraine wa5 course there is also the fact that this is, as lorraine was pointing out, a predominately freelance industry, people working on short—term contracts, so the broadcasters will be absolutely wanting people with any evidence, any allegation to come forward to them to share their views. but it is complicated by the fact that this is more than one decade ago where these allegations live. i think it is also the fact that there has been, over the fact that there has been, over the course of the last year, a lot of emphasis on duty of care and changes in strengthening policies made by all forms of broadcasters in regards to the news lately. i think it is worthwhile pointing out that, in my view, you could have every single rule and regulation put in and the most watertight system and way in which you can approach somebody in full confidence but if

there is not the culture where people are able to feel comfortable that they are able to go and do so, the people will not use a system that has been setup the people will not use a system that has been set up for them. i think it is also the case that, particularly within the tv industry, people rightly are concerned that if they make a allegation in regards to any conduct within a workplace, it will have an implication on their own work going forward. just the fact of mere consequences, people thinking about their nextjob and their next career. i think this is their next career. i think this is the wider issue that the entire industry is having to be facing now and where it will be heading next is how can we ensure a culture where wrongdoing is rightly stopped in its tracks and that people can point out, without people feeling that they wouldn't be able to because they wouldn't be able to because they wouldn't be able to because

they wouldn't be able to be heard. me too was meant to change everything, wasn't it? his career, as i try to say early on, this thing has been going on, behaviour like this, has been going on since time immemorial. now we see it from west hollywood to westminster a5 immemorial. now we see it from west hollywood to westminster as well. powerful men doing this and exploiting women in this heinous way. his career trajectory has been quite extraordinary. the reinventions a5 quite extraordinary. the reinventions as well that he has managed to create.— reinventions as well that he has managed to create. yes, this is a comedian — managed to create. yes, this is a comedian who _ managed to create. yes, this is a comedian who has _ managed to create. yes, this is a comedian who has thrived - managed to create. yes, this is a comedian who has thrived upon l comedian who has thrived upon controversy, who has thrived upon being provocative and has thrived upon, i think, being provocative and has thrived upon, ithink, having being provocative and has thrived upon, i think, having a being provocative and has thrived upon, ithink, having a relationship with the viewer which feels kind of

direct in the fact that he has been able to subsequently launch this online following. but it is all it is also the fact that if this had happened seven or eight years ago, it would be the natural consequence that broadcasters would no longer work with him, the drawbridge would go work with him, the drawbridge would 9° up, work with him, the drawbridge would go up, that person would find themselves... go up, that person would find themselves. . ._ go up, that person would find themselves... ~ , ., ., themselves... well, he is not going to a- ear themselves... well, he is not going to appear on _ themselves... well, he is not going to appear on have _ themselves... well, he is not going to appear on have i _ themselves... well, he is not going to appear on have i got _ themselves... well, he is not going to appear on have i got news i themselves... well, he is not going to appear on have i got news for. to appear on have i got news for you, is he? but to appear on have i got news for you. is he?— to appear on have i got news for you, is he? �* ., ., . you, is he? but he has an audience of his own- — you, is he? but he has an audience of his own- he _ you, is he? but he has an audience of his own. he has _ you, is he? but he has an audience of his own. he has many _ you, is he? but he has an audience of his own. he has many people i of his own. he has many people subscribed to him, hear his views, his views are very much now dealing within conspiracy and going against the media narrative and he is able to maintain that and the fact he was able to have a gig on saturday night, the same day as the channel

for dispatches and newspaper allegations emerged. there was a strong showing for that. it will be interesting to see how that pans out. there are future dates on this tour, they will be questions with the venues about whether they would want to have somebody undergoing such allegations, which he denies, taking place within their vicinity. but the media environment has changed significantly over the course of the last ten years. you can be in the public eye and have many followers and be able to have a considerable social online media traction without appearing on tv at all. . traction without appearing on tv at all. , . , ,., , traction without appearing on tv at all. , , all. yes. absolutely, scott. the world has _ all. yes. absolutely, scott. the world has changed _ all. yes. absolutely, scott. the world has changed in _ all. yes. absolutely, scott. the world has changed in that i all. yes. absolutely, scott. the i world has changed in that respect, markedly. lorraine, i know you have to go, tv executive of great repute, you are in the programme. oh, there is lorraine! but watching some of the old footage, lorraine, of russell brand, his material was,

some of it was... notjust lecturers are lascivious but downright creepy. the community of effect the lips wa5 the community of effect the lips was unbelievable, really. it is hard to believe anybody enjoyed that content. comedians like to push the boundaries but, to my view, the stuff he was saying it is not funny. it is not funny to talk about abusing women on stage and get a laugh out about it which is effectively what he was doing. the programme's title, in plain sight, was very apt. he was doing what he was very apt. he was doing what he was doing very openly, almost flaunting it. his behaviour in the radio two studio, from getting naked, from getting his... being in

a bottle, having sex in a public toilet. nobody did anything. it affects him to carry on. he said he deliberately selected female competition winners to come into the studio so that he could have sex with them. he studio so that he could have sex with them-— studio so that he could have sex with them. , ., , ., , with them. he says that the sex was onl ever with them. he says that the sex was only ever consensual _ with them. he says that the sex was only ever consensual and _ with them. he says that the sex was only ever consensual and he - only ever consensual and he denies the allegations of rape and sexual assault. thank you for coming on at short notice, lorraine. thank you. cery5 speaking very powerfully at the beginning. cerys, what did you think of the material? even for its times, and we are talking about the early naughties,, it was carry on

material with a pretty unpleasant edge. it material with a pretty unpleasant edie. . . material with a pretty unpleasant edie, ., , ., ., material with a pretty unpleasant edie. ., ., ., material with a pretty unpleasant edie. .,, ., ., ., .,, edge. it was material that was clearly working _ edge. it was material that was clearly working for _ edge. it was material that was clearly working for him. i edge. it was material that was clearly working for him. he i edge. it was material that was i clearly working for him. he wasn't going _ clearly working for him. he wasn't going to _ clearly working for him. he wasn't going to deviate from that. it was working _ going to deviate from that. it was working in— going to deviate from that. it was working in the way that it was essentially getting him laid and what _ essentially getting him laid and what he — essentially getting him laid and what he wanted. why would he change it? it what he wanted. why would he change it? it was _ what he wanted. why would he change it? it was having the desired effect on his— it? it was having the desired effect on his eventual outcome that he wanted — on his eventual outcome that he wanted. ~ ., , , on his eventual outcome that he wanted. ~ ., , ., wanted. what did everybody on the circuit think — wanted. what did everybody on the circuit think about _ wanted. what did everybody on the circuit think about it _ wanted. what did everybody on the circuit think about it at _ wanted. what did everybody on the circuit think about it at the - wanted. what did everybody on the circuit think about it at the time? i circuit think about it at the time? i have only been going 15 years so it was— i have only been going 15 years so it was before my time. it's notjust him _ it was before my time. it's notjust him it— it was before my time. it's notjust him it is— it was before my time. it's notjust him. it is material that has been like that — him. it is material that has been like that. still to this day i can be like that. still to this day i can he on — like that. still to this day i can he on a — like that. still to this day i can be on a gig with somebody, with material— be on a gig with somebody, with material that i am just like, i can't — material that i am just like, i can't believe you think this is acceptable to say there is on stage. this is— acceptable to say there is on stage. this is the _ acceptable to say there is on stage. this is the point that i have been making _ this is the point that i have been making on— this is the point that i have been making on social media all this

weekend _ making on social media all this weekend. i have been making the stand _ weekend. i have been making the stand to _ weekend. i have been making the stand to choose not to work with these _ stand to choose not to work with these people and for anybody that hooks _ these people and for anybody that books is _ these people and for anybody that books is people because i don't want to feel— books is people because i don't want to feel uncomfortable at work any more _ to feel uncomfortable at work any more let— to feel uncomfortable at work any more. let me say this quickly. i am a strong _ more. let me say this quickly. i am a strong woman, i worked as a firefighter _ a strong woman, i worked as a firefighter for years, a strong woman, i worked as a firefighterforyears, i a strong woman, i worked as a firefighter for years, i have worked in male—dominated industries, i can take llanter— in male—dominated industries, i can take banter along with the best of them _ take banter along with the best of them and — take banter along with the best of them and i can banter with audiences. some of the stuff that men say— audiences. some of the stuff that men say to— audiences. some of the stuff that men say to me in an audience, i know people _ men say to me in an audience, i know people wouldn't say that to a male comedian — people wouldn't say that to a male comedian. but i'm not easily shocked but it— comedian. but i'm not easily shocked but it has— comedian. but i'm not easily shocked but it has got to the point now that i am but it has got to the point now that i am just— but it has got to the point now that i am just tired and exhausted. this weekend _ i am just tired and exhausted. this weekend has proved it even on a different— weekend has proved it even on a different level. i am tired of having — different level. i am tired of having to _ different level. i am tired of having to deal with it. i've got no hr department are complain to. if somebody— hr department are complain to. if somebody sexual assaults me, an

audience. — somebody sexual assaults me, an audience. a — somebody sexual assaults me, an audience, a book, another comedian, i audience, a book, another comedian, i have _ audience, a book, another comedian, i have got— audience, a book, another comedian, i have got nobody to go to. are there other _ i have got nobody to go to. site: there other people i have got nobody to go to. fife: there other people working i have got nobody to go to. fife there other people working in your industry, comedian, booker5, anybody, you will mention no names, that have a similar pattern of behaviour? he denies the allegations, of course. yes. it is -rolific, allegations, of course. yes. it is prolific, absolutely _ allegations, of course. yes. it is prolific, absolutely prolific. i- prolific, absolutely prolific. i have — prolific, absolutely prolific. i have my— prolific, absolutely prolific. i have my own me to send us that i still haven't spoken out about because of who he works for who his best friends _ because of who he works for who his best friends are and this is going lrack— best friends are and this is going back to _ best friends are and this is going back to why are people not talking about _ back to why are people not talking about it? — back to why are people not talking about it? it is because we would lose work. — about it? it is because we would lose work, we would lose other people — lose work, we would lose other people work. all of these runners and people who have essentially turned _ and people who have essentially turned a — and people who have essentially turned a blind eye, i don't expect

people _ turned a blind eye, i don't expect people to — turned a blind eye, i don't expect people to stand up next to me and then lose — people to stand up next to me and then lose money and not be able to afford _ then lose money and not be able to afford the _ then lose money and not be able to afford the mortgage and feed their families. _ afford the mortgage and feed their families, and that is essentially what _ families, and that is essentially what happens. these people are in powerful— what happens. these people are in powerful positions for a reason and it is the _ powerful positions for a reason and it is the little people that are the ones _ it is the little people that are the ones seeing the stuff that can't do anything _ ones seeing the stuff that can't do anything about it because they are the ones _ anything about it because they are the ones that will pay initially and probably— the ones that will pay initially and probably in the end. we will see how this pans _ probably in the end. we will see how this pans out with russell brand. he has already— this pans out with russell brand. he has already created a channel that he doesn't — has already created a channel that he doesn't need to be on tv in any way. _ he doesn't need to be on tv in any way. shape — he doesn't need to be on tv in any way, shape or form. he doesn't need to be on tv in any way, shape orform. he has his following — way, shape orform. he has his following and he will carry on. like i following and he will carry on. like i said. _ following and he will carry on. like i said. he — following and he will carry on. like i said, he knew this was coming and that is— i said, he knew this was coming and that is what— i said, he knew this was coming and that is what he has done, he has built_ that is what he has done, he has built up— that is what he has done, he has built up this platform that he doesn't — built up this platform that he doesn't need any of you guys, any of the media. _ doesn't need any of you guys, any of the media, anybody behind him because — the media, anybody behind him because he canjust carry on the media, anybody behind him because he can just carry on as the media, anybody behind him because he canjust carry on as he is. because he can “ust carry on as he is. :, because he can “ust carry on as he is. ., :, , :, :, is. no longer beholden to the tv establishment. _ is. no longer beholden to the tv establishment. all _ is. no longer beholden to the tv establishment. all the _ is. no longer beholden to the tv i establishment. all the mainstream media. thank you, cerys, stand—up comedian. let's go with vincent in leeds and joanne and centre in sunderland. make your statements

brief but telling. —— sandra in sunderland. good morning, sandra. sandra has gone! what a shame. we will try and get her back. vincent in leeds. good morning. goad in leeds. good morning. good morning. _ in leeds. good morning. good morning, nikki. _ in leeds. good morning. good morning, nikki. my— in leeds. good morning. good morning, nikki. my quick- in leeds. good morning. (limp. morning, nikki. my quick thought is that i have a problem with these journalists. although i'm not making anyjudgment a5 journalists. although i'm not making anyjudgment as so far as whether russell has done this or hasn't done it but what i would say is if these journalists all the employers had any evidence that they have gathered would have been taken to the police and not used primarily for financial gain. lilo and not used primarily for financial lain, :, :, and not used primarily for financial aiin, :, :, , , , and not used primarily for financial ain. :, :, , , , ., and not used primarily for financial aiin, ., ., , , , ., a, , gain. no one is suggesting anyone is iiainin gain. no one is suggesting anyone is gaining financially _ gain. no one is suggesting anyone is gaining financially from _ gain. no one is suggesting anyone is gaining financially from this. - gain. no one is suggesting anyone is gaining financially from this. but i gaining financially from this. but the do. gaining financially from this. but they do- the _ gaining financially from this. emit they do. the fact that we are having this conversation on the bbc right now means that there is somebody who

is gaining advertise... well, not on the bbc but on channel 4 it would attract advertising. the police other people to take these kinds of complaints too.— other people to take these kinds of complaints too. channello, a me “ust to sa complaints too. channelli, a me “ust to say this. — complaints too. channelli, a me “ust to say this. sorry fl complaints too. channelli, a me “ust to say this, sorry to i complaints too. channelli, a me “ust to say this, sorry to interrupt i complaints too. channelli, a mejust to say this, sorry to interrupt you, i to say this, sorry to interrupt you, but i think it is important to say that channel 4 are at the brunt of the allegations, a5 that channel 4 are at the brunt of the allegations, as are the bbc, but i thought what always makes me proud about channel 4 and bbc and news organisations like that is when they report on themselves without fear or favour, which is what channel 4 did. it was a channel 4 programme. this does no good to the reputation of channel 4 at all. the point that i am trying to make is if there is evidence, enough

evidence to charge russell brand at any point, then all of this taking the evidence to the media instead of taking it to the police, is going to make any prosecution that much more difficult. :, ~' :, make any prosecution that much more difficult. :, ,, :, , , . , difficult. you know? the publicity, and gaining _ difficult. you know? the publicity, and gaining an _ difficult. you know? the publicity, and gaining an impartial _ difficult. you know? the publicity, and gaining an impartialjury. it i and gaining an impartialjury. it will potentially be that much more difficult. similarly, iwill say will potentially be that much more difficult. similarly, i will say if russell brand '5 claims of innocence and anything he did was consensual, it is true, then he should write now be at the office of his lawyers preparing a case for libel. you know? it's all very well for him to say as much as he wants that things were consensual but going by his previous levels of empathy, and the

size of his ego, i would suggest can sensuality a5 a subjective thing, it's not something that he can speak to and an objective way. so i would be suspicious of his claims of consensual holiday.— be suspicious of his claims of consensual holiday. thank you for that. he consensual holiday. thank you for that- he of— consensual holiday. thank you for that. he of course _ consensual holiday. thank you for that. he of course says _ consensual holiday. thank you for that. he of course says all - consensual holiday. thank you for that. he of course says all his i that. he of course says all his sexual encounters have forever been consensual and he also denies the allegations of sexual assault and rape. vincent, we appreciate you getting in touch. joanne embleton, hello! i will say channel four on the production company responsible for overseeing programmes like big brother, has launched an investigation on the bbc is looking at the issues. one of the charities that russell brand wa5 at the issues. one of the charities that russell brand was associated with has cut ties with him, it's all going on. and also he has had

support from some quarters, elon musk and andrew tate.— support from some quarters, elon musk and andrew tate. joanne, what do ou musk and andrew tate. joanne, what do you think? — musk and andrew tate. joanne, what do you think? i— musk and andrew tate. joanne, what do you think? i have _ musk and andrew tate. joanne, what do you think? i have seen _ musk and andrew tate. joanne, what do you think? i have seen the - do you think? i have seen the response _ do you think? i have seen the response from elon musk, i read it before _ response from elon musk, i read it before i_ response from elon musk, i read it before i saw— response from elon musk, i read it before i saw the programme, we are in a culture _ before i saw the programme, we are in a culture if— before i saw the programme, we are in a culture if a female speaks out against _ in a culture if a female speaks out against a — in a culture if a female speaks out against a male, one that is a presenter. _ against a male, one that is a presenter, someone in a position of power. _ presenter, someone in a position of power. let's— presenter, someone in a position of power, let's say, it is an area they are jumped — power, let's say, it is an area they are jumped on power, let's say, it is an area they arejumped on by power, let's say, it is an area they are jumped on by millions of people on the _ are jumped on by millions of people on the internet, they are abused, they have — on the internet, they are abused, they have physical threats of violence, from the so—called fans aren't— violence, from the so—called fans aren't it's — violence, from the so—called fans aren't it's curious really to see what _ aren't it's curious really to see what type _ aren't it's curious really to see what type of fans they are. as a normal — what type of fans they are. as a normal person on the street and my favourite _ normal person on the street and my favourite pop stars that i have admired. _ favourite pop stars that i have admired, i would favourite pop stars that i have admired, iwould not favourite pop stars that i have admired, i would not dream of making admired, ! would not dream of making threats— admired, i would not dream of making threats to _ admired, i would not dream of making threats to someone because they said someone _ threats to someone because they said someone against our pop star, i find it very— someone against our pop star, i find it very bizarre. overall, i find misogyny— it very bizarre. overall, i find misogyny is alive and well and in

most _ misogyny is alive and well and in most industries and it's been a culture — most industries and it's been a culture of— most industries and it's been a culture of men being able to go out with women of 18 and 16 and say it is legal— with women of 18 and 16 and say it is legal and — with women of 18 and 16 and say it is legal and consensual at that age and it— is legal and consensual at that age and it may— is legal and consensual at that age and it may be legal but it is morally— and it may be legal but it is morally wrong when the guy is 37 and the girl— morally wrong when the guy is 37 and the girl of— morally wrong when the guy is 37 and the girl of 16 morally wrong when the guy is 37 and the girl of16 and morally wrong when the guy is 37 and the girl of 16 and she has been picked — the girl of 16 and she has been picked up _ the girl of 16 and she has been picked up from school... | the girl of 16 and she has been picked up from school... i remember iioin to picked up from school... i remember going to an — picked up from school... i remember going to an award — picked up from school... i remember going to an award ceremony - picked up from school... i remember going to an award ceremony with i picked up from school... i remember. going to an award ceremony with when ifir5t came to going to an award ceremony with when i first came to london, 1985, going to an award ceremony with when ifir5t came to london, 1985, 86, bill wyman wa5 ifir5t came to london, 1985, 86, bill wyman was there with mandy smith who was bill wyman was there with mandy smith who wa513 and he was having a relationship with her. thank you so much. and vincent. times have changed thank god. let's talk about the sum more in the next 30 minutes, toxic brand. get in touch.

here is the news with al tansley. the chair of the women and equalities committee caroline knox says there should be a criminal investigation into the sexual assault allegations against russell brand. the comedian and presenter strongly denies the claims saying his relationships above has been consensual. by the americans jailed for years in consensual. by the americans jailed foryears in iran consensual. by the americans jailed for years in iran are expected to play on this morning as part of a prisoner swap. they will board a plane in tehran after almost £5 billion which iran claims it is sold from oil sales has been transferred. sir keir starmer has told the financial times he will look at rewriting the brexit deal if he wins the next election. but he said he will not try to rejoin the customs union or single market. government figures show more than 380 pubs closed in england and wales in the first half of this year. that is around two per day. campaigners want around two per day. campaigners want a change in planning laws to protect them. katie smith has the sport. good morning. matt dawson reckons

last night was as complete a performance from england since steve borthwick to go a scrappy start they beat japan 34—12 in the second rugby world cup match and it means they grab world cup match and it means they gmba world cup match and it means they grab a bonus point when the verge of picking a quarterfinal spot. dan evans and neal skupski fended off a four match points late in the night in manchester helping great britain into the last eight of the davis cup. they beat france in the deciding couples rubber. they will face in november. mikel arteta says he did not see swapping his goalkeeper surround is an issue. arsenal beat everton1—0 with a debut in goal replacing aaron ramsdale who played every game last season. max ver5tappen described his shore is cocking at the singapore grand prix finishing fifth bringing an end to his run of ten consecutive win5. carlos sainz one having started in full position.

and at ten o'clock our discussion, bbc news and bbc two will be looking at the main international and national news stories but here we will be discussing liz truss on bbc five live and bbc sounds. why? i will tell you. you will hear from her. this time last year she was still in downing street, 5he her. this time last year she was still in downing street, she was in the process of putting the final

touches to her mini budget. setting out her vision for the road ahead. she started by cutting taxes, reducing benefit increases, cutting the top rate of tax, raising retirement age, delaying net zero commitments and she will say that today. basically making the point i guess that i had a point so year one, with the benefit of hindsight, here is a question. wa5 one, with the benefit of hindsight, here is a question. was she right? get in touch, we will talk about that later. coming up, and hr adviser on work culture. butjane is in glasgow. how are you? what is your reaction to all of this? i

are you? what is your reaction to all of this?— are you? what is your reaction to all of this? i got in touch because first of all i _ all of this? i got in touch because first of all i used _ all of this? i got in touch because first of all i used to _ all of this? i got in touch because first of all i used to work - all of this? i got in touch because first of all i used to work in i first of all i used to work in television, but i watched the documentary and itjust hit a chord with me. i moved down to london to work for the bbc in the 905 and did some bit5 work for the bbc in the 905 and did some bits and pieces for itv, young girl in her205. some bits and pieces for itv, young girl in her 205. i was an assistance are basically the golfer, running back and forward, getting to guess, presenters, who have come onto the studio floor is, the person who does all the running around. and sometimes i was the recipient of the anger of men, effectively. i worked on a lot of live television programmes, high pressure, occasions i would get, could you please come on the set and there would be other powerplay going on that was nothing

to do with me but i would be told to get lost in no uncertain terms. i would be called the seaward, i would have doors slammed in my face and i were desperately trying not to cry and just had to suck it up. and get on with it. it was a children's programme, i will not name names, then the programme, do not worry. but there was a children's programme, like children's programme i worked on and the music producer on the programme was desperate to meet one of his hero so but disk scarcity wa5 meet one of his hero so but disk scarcity was totally inappropriate, firstly the guest wa5 scarcity was totally inappropriate, firstly the guest was absolutely fine, not a problem. firstly the guest was absolutely fine, nota problem. not firstly the guest was absolutely fine, not a problem. not appropriate for a children's programme, it was an ego the producer want to make and i was told in the weeks before the run up to help this person and the team they must not swear, they must not swear, they must not swear. on the day i was asked how you told them? what does guest do the second day alone? they swear. the programme

comes off air, i am hunted down by the producer, taking into a green room, pushed against a wall and i get the hairdryer treatment, the swearing. i told you! i told you! and i thought ok, what was i supposed to do? and thatjob is freelance. wa5 supposed to do? and thatjob is freelance. was i supposed to go, what was i supposed to do? it was the anger of men that was put on me. because they were all worried about their own positions, etc, their own power politics. and it gets whittled down. i had friends who work to told things like as your first day in presenter, just so you know, they have some quirks, but do worry, it is notjust the way have some quirks, but do worry, it is not just the way they are. again, not naming names. this presenter is a convicted sex offender but you were told, they are a bit funny, but

odd, but you know, it isjust were told, they are a bit funny, but odd, but you know, it is just the way they are, do not worry. you are for one so you cannot go any further, you cannot go my god, this happens. we told you! i left television about 19 years ago when i had children, my husband still works in television. so i do not know if things have changed or what the culture is now but i hope it's not like that but i have a horrible feeling probably still is and some of these bigger programmes... i of these bigger programmes... i wonder if the hr culture is better, if that happened to you, you got the hairdryer treatment.— hairdryer treatment. awful. i've got to sa i hairdryer treatment. awful. i've got to say i was — hairdryer treatment. awful. i've got to say i was brought _ hairdryer treatment. awful. i've got to say i was brought up _ hairdryer treatment. awful. i've got to say i was brought up in _ to say i was brought up in television, my father was a television, my father was a television director so i grew up in underrun television but to have that... you know? at that time? it wasjust that... you know? at that time? it was just horrible and a kind of effects me what people say, my god

you worked in the bbc in the 905 and you worked in the bbc in the 905 and you worked in the bbc in the 905 and you worked on this and that and it must be so exciting, tell us. and i say well, i hated it, i wanted out and i left and people are really shocked. what do you think it's a lie? i know this is notjust television, the sort of thing happens, it must happen in all sorts of industries but we are focusing on it because of what has come to light over the weekend. i'm sure it must happen in law practices or financial institutions, anywhere that is high—stakes and high risk5, it must go on. high-stakes and high risks, it must io on. :, , , , . go on. for sure. let me bring dulcie n. excellent — go on. for sure. let me bring dulcie n, excellent point. _ go on. for sure. let me bring dulcie n, excellent point. hr— go on. for sure. let me bring dulcie n, excellent point. hr advice i go on. for sure. let me bring dulcie n, excellent point. hr advice on i n, excellent point. hr advice on work culture, do you hear what shane has said about what happened in the 905, the hairdryer treatment, it wasn't her fault, 905, the hairdryer treatment, it wasn't herfault, 5he 905, the hairdryer treatment, it wasn't herfault, she did everything she could to avoid the swearing thing from that particular presenter, but that particular

presenter, but that particular presenter went on once were, what more could she have done? it sounds like she did herjob really well. but then got slaughtered for it. could that happen now? without a massive escalation? {lat could that happen now? without a massive escalation?— massive escalation? of course it could happen- — massive escalation? of course it could happen. yes. _ massive escalation? of course it could happen. yes. human i massive escalation? of course it i could happen. yes. human beings get really— could happen. yes. human beings get really stressed, and as she said, this person — really stressed, and as she said, this person would have been worried about— this person would have been worried about their— this person would have been worried about their own position. but i think— about their own position. but i think the — about their own position. but i think the behaviours are not seen as 0k any— think the behaviours are not seen as 0k any more. i think, you know, there _ ok any more. i think, you know, there has— 0k any more. i think, you know, there has been a massive change. if that thing _ there has been a massive change. if that thing had happened ten or 15 years— that thing had happened ten or 15 years ago— that thing had happened ten or 15 years ago and i saw it happen at work. _ years ago and i saw it happen at work, there was a bit like, it's just— work, there was a bit like, it's just them. _ work, there was a bit like, it's just them, they have a temper or whatever— just them, they have a temper or whatever but i think now it is jumped — whatever but i think now it is jumped on in a much better way. i also think— jumped on in a much better way. i also think this sense that you know, the sexual— also think this sense that you know, the sexual harassment we have been talking _ the sexual harassment we have been talking about that's been in the

news. — talking about that's been in the news, since the metoo movement, and that became _ news, since the metoo movement, and that became a hashtag in 2017, there is safety— that became a hashtag in 2017, there is safety in _ that became a hashtag in 2017, there is safety in numbers so i think people — is safety in numbers so i think people are much happier to report instances — people are much happier to report instances of harassment, they do not feel as _ instances of harassment, they do not feel as if— instances of harassment, they do not feel as if they will be victimised or not— feel as if they will be victimised or not believed. will that mean it's perfect _ or not believed. will that mean it's perfect or— or not believed. will that mean it's perfect or does it mean to say things— perfect or does it mean to say things did _ perfect or does it mean to say things did not happen? no! but actually— things did not happen? no! but actually i — things did not happen? no! but actually i think instances are people — actually i think instances are people feeling they cannot say something about it are much fewer and in _ something about it are much fewer and in between, i would say. behaviour— and in between, i would say. behaviour like that that is alleged of russell brand, he denies the allegations. of course. he says sex was only ever consensual, he denies the allegations of rape and sexual assault and he says he was very promiscuous back in the day and he has written about that. some of his book makes very interesting reading. but we have to remember that. we that happen now? in the aftermath of

the metoo movement, would it be tolerated now in any industry? i tolerated now in any industry? i think one of the real changes since the metoo — think one of the real changes since the metoo movement is other men did not see _ the metoo movement is other men did not see this _ the metoo movement is other men did not see this as acceptable. you might— not see this as acceptable. you might have conversations between women _ might have conversations between women previously and they would have been going. _ women previously and they would have been going, god, that is awful and they might — been going, god, that is awful and they might have felt they could not io they might have felt they could not go anywhere with it, especially if they were — go anywhere with it, especially if they were not in a position of power but i they were not in a position of power but i think— they were not in a position of power but i think increasingly you speak to men— but i think increasingly you speak to men and if they were hearing those _ to men and if they were hearing those sorts of stories now, i think they would — those sorts of stories now, i think they would be much more likely to think— they would be much more likely to think that — they would be much more likely to think that was not at all cool. whereas— think that was not at all cool. whereas previously, i think there was banter, it was not seen as something _ was banter, it was not seen as something that was as bad as it clearly— something that was as bad as it clearly is — something that was as bad as it clearly is so i think that really has changed since the metoo movement, that is really different. ithink— movement, that is really different. i think the — movement, that is really different. i think the other thing in relation to what— i think the other thing in relation to what james cleverly talked about, being _ to what james cleverly talked about, being particularly careful when there — being particularly careful when there is— being particularly careful when there is the power differential is

really— there is the power differential is really important. jane was referring to that _ really important. jane was referring to that in _ really important. jane was referring to that in the sense that they are a little _ to that in the sense that they are a little bit _ to that in the sense that they are a little bit odd, it's ok. there is somewhere to go with these things now. _ somewhere to go with these things now. even— somewhere to go with these things now, even when you are pre—warn that someone _ now, even when you are pre—warn that someone has _ now, even when you are pre—warn that someone has a behaviour you will find difficult, ithink someone has a behaviour you will find difficult, i think it's easier to call— find difficult, i think it's easier to call that out and say it is not ok _ to call that out and say it is not ok and — to call that out and say it is not ok. and certainly the organisations 0k. and certainly the organisations iwork— 0k. and certainly the organisations i work in. _ 0k. and certainly the organisations i work in, there is a robust procedure _ i work in, there is a robust procedure for dealing with it and that's— procedure for dealing with it and that's always been there but i think it's this _ that's always been there but i think it's this kind of groupthink around the tolerance for behaviour like this is— the tolerance for behaviour like this isjust _ the tolerance for behaviour like this isjust making it much easier to call— this isjust making it much easier to call it — this isjust making it much easier to call it out as it is absolutely not ok — to call it out as it is absolutely not ok. . . to call it out as it is absolutely not ok. :,, , .~' ., :, not ok. please stick around, we will hear some calls. _ not ok. please stick around, we will hear some calls. jane, _ not ok. please stick around, we will hear some calls. jane, are - not ok. please stick around, we will hear some calls. jane, are you i not ok. please stick around, we will hear some calls. jane, are you still. hear some calls. jane, are you still with us, great contribution and really important. allah is in northampton. debbie is in wigan. good morning to you both. and lynn sn connaughton. debbie, what you think? this stuff over the weekend?

it was really uncomfortable viewing. very unpleasant. my point really was in response to the previous caller who was talking about these people should have gone to the police with all the information they gathered and ifelt all the information they gathered and i felt that was really at best naive kind of point of view to suggest that, you know, keep it to yourself and take it to the police because historically we know the police have not been very good at dealing with these kinds of allegations of rape and sexual assault. we know that of reported rapes, it is between one and 2% is the conviction rate and that doesn't take into account all the crimes that are not reported because of this. so to kind of say they should not have kept it, they should have kept it to themselves and send it to the police i think it is not really right. and especially in relation to

the allegations that are not criminal but are morally questionable, should everyone have kept quiet and allowed him to go on and have his career when he is doing these things that are not criminal, these things that are not criminal, the relationship with the 16—year—old is arguably not criminal but it sounds as if wa5 coercive, morally extremely questionable and it's just this kind morally extremely questionable and it'sjust this kind of morally extremely questionable and it's just this kind of culture of should we ignore this and pass it on as what has allowed this historical situation to continue and this is weird a5 let's just pass it to someone else, can our face away and not deal with that. i think we cannot do that any more. ella, do ou cannot do that any more. ella, do you agree? _ cannot do that any more. ella, do you agree? yes. _ cannot do that any more. ella, do you agree? yes, i _ cannot do that any more. ella, do you agree? yes, i do _ cannot do that any more. ella, do you agree? yes, i do and - cannot do that any more. ella, do you agree? yes, i do and i i cannot do that any more. ella, do you agree? yes, i do and i think. you agree? yes, i do and i think it's such a _ you agree? yes, i do and i think it's such a wider _ you agree? yes, i do and i think it's such a wider issue _ you agree? yes, i do and i think it's such a wider issue than i you agree? yes, i do and i think. it's such a wider issue than russell brand _ it's such a wider issue than russell brand i_ it's such a wider issue than russell brand. i think this is a culture, he was enabled — brand. i think this is a culture, he was enabled to behave this way

because — was enabled to behave this way because the teams, the bbc, the channel— because the teams, the bbc, the channel four were profiting from him and not _ channel four were profiting from him and not only— channel four were profiting from him and not only did they enable him but they encouraged him. this was a man behaving _ they encouraged him. this was a man behaving like an adult child, running _ behaving like an adult child, running around doing what he liked, wearing _ running around doing what he liked, wearing what he liked and that was all very— wearing what he liked and that was all very inappropriate and unprofessional. apparently they even picked _ unprofessional. apparently they even picked out _ unprofessional. apparently they even picked out fans from the audience for him. _ picked out fans from the audience for him. it's— picked out fans from the audience for him, it's not acceptable and i would _ for him, it's not acceptable and i would like — for him, it's not acceptable and i would like to know who from the management are going to be held accountable. we keep hearing one name' _ accountable. we keep hearing one name, russell brand but he would not have been— name, russell brand but he would not have been able to behave like that had have been able to behave like that bad he _ have been able to behave like that bad he not — have been able to behave like that had he not had a team behind him backing _ had he not had a team behind him backing him, encouraging him. it was all because _ backing him, encouraging him. it was all because they were making money from him _ all because they were making money from him and i also have a question about— from him and i also have a question about why— from him and i also have a question about why it— from him and i also have a question about why it is now this is coming out? _ about why it is now this is coming out? the — about why it is now this is coming out? the investigation began four years— out? the investigation began four years ago. — out? the investigation began four years ago, the man has been around for years— years ago, the man has been around for years behaving like this. we have _ for years behaving like this. we have heard from female comedians, it is a big, _ have heard from female comedians, it is a big, well—known and badly kept secret— is a big, well—known and badly kept secret of— is a big, well—known and badly kept secret of what he was like within

the industry so why now is it only within— the industry so why now is it only within the — the industry so why now is it only within the last four years. it is because — within the last four years. it is because the bbc and channel four are no longer— because the bbc and channel four are no longer profiting from his tv appearances that they... l055 _ appearances that they... loss of sound .that loss of sound . that not that mike has not had the thousands of women, possibly who have suffered at his hands when he started acting out. i have suffered at his hands when he started acting out.— started acting out. i find it incredibly _ started acting out. i find it incredibly difficult - started acting out. i find it incredibly difficult it's - started acting out. i find it incredibly difficult it's onlyi started acting out. i find it - incredibly difficult it's only been the last— incredibly difficult it's only been the last four years they have decided _ the last four years they have decided to investigate the accusations.— decided to investigate the accusations. ., , , accusations. what you say is very interesting _ accusations. what you say is very interesting. in _ accusations. what you say is very interesting. in that _ accusations. what you say is very interesting. in that had _ accusations. what you say is very interesting. in that had he - accusations. what you say is very interesting. in that had he been i accusations. what you say is veryl interesting. in that had he been at the top of his main stream media again, if you like, the big saturday night itv, he will probably, he was neverfamily night itv, he will probably, he was never family entertainment but if he had been as massive, making the films, doing the big tv as he was because he now would this have come

out? would there have been an audience for those women now? i like to think that there would have been because times have changed but he has that refuge in a new niche audience, albeit it is a massive niche but let me bring in danieljan casey n, founder of the pressure group falsely accused individuals. do you think there is a danger of trial by media. i do you think there is a danger of trial by media.— trial by media. i do not know whether he _ trial by media. i do not know whether he is _ trial by media. i do not know whether he is innocent - trial by media. i do not know whether he is innocent or - trial by media. i do not know. whether he is innocent or not, trial by media. i do not know - whether he is innocent or not, nor to your— whether he is innocent or not, nor to your contributors— whether he is innocent or not, nor to your contributors or— whether he is innocent or not, nor to your contributors or listeners . to your contributors or listeners know _ to your contributors or listeners know but — to your contributors or listeners know. but what _ to your contributors or listeners know. but what a _ to your contributors or listeners know. but what a is _ to your contributors or listeners know. but what a is entitled - to your contributors or listeners know. but what a is entitled toi know. but what a is entitled to a safer— know. but what a is entitled to a safer trial — know. but what a is entitled to a safer trial should _ know. but what a is entitled to a safer trial should the _ know. but what a is entitled to a safer trial should the police - safer trial should the police charge, _ safer trial should the police charge, we _ safer trial should the police charge, we do— safer trial should the police charge, we do not- safer trial should the police charge, we do not know- safer trial should the police - charge, we do not know whether the police _ charge, we do not know whether the police will _ charge, we do not know whether the police will charge. _ charge, we do not know whether the police will charge. what _ charge, we do not know whether the police will charge. what my- charge, we do not know whether the| police will charge. what my pressure group _ police will charge. what my pressure groub believes— police will charge. what my pressure group believes in— police will charge. what my pressure group believes in is— police will charge. what my pressure group believes in is there _ police will charge. what my pressure group believes in is there should - police will charge. what my pressure group believes in is there should bel group believes in is there should be anonymity— group believes in is there should be anonymity until— group believes in is there should be anonymity until such _ group believes in is there should be anonymity until such times - group believes in is there should be anonymity until such times as - group believes in is there should be anonymity until such times as he i group believes in is there should be l anonymity until such times as he may be charged _ anonymity until such times as he may be charged and — anonymity until such times as he may be charged and we _ anonymity until such times as he may be charged and we have _ anonymity until such times as he may be charged and we have seen- anonymity until such times as he may be charged and we have seen this - be charged and we have seen this with celebrities _ be charged and we have seen this with celebrities in _ be charged and we have seen this with celebrities in the _ be charged and we have seen this with celebrities in the past. - be charged and we have seen this with celebrities in the past. i- be charged and we have seen this with celebrities in the past. i am. with celebrities in the past. i am sure _ with celebrities in the past. i am sure your— with celebrities in the past. i am sure your listeners _ with celebrities in the past. i am sure your listeners will - with celebrities in the past. i am. sure your listeners will remember what _ sure your listeners will remember what happened _ sure your listeners will remember what happened to _ sure your listeners will remember what happened to cliff— sure your listeners will remember what happened to cliff richard - sure your listeners will remember what happened to cliff richard he| what happened to cliff richard he was never — what happened to cliff richard he was never charged! _

what happened to cliff richard he was never charged! whereas - what happened to cliff richard he was never charged! whereas we i what happened to cliff richard he i was never charged! whereas we are what happened to cliff richard he - was never charged! whereas we are in the position— was never charged! whereas we are in the position now— was never charged! whereas we are in the position now where _ was never charged! whereas we are in the position now where russell- was never charged! whereas we are in the position now where russell brandl the position now where russell brand has in _ the position now where russell brand has in effect — the position now where russell brand has in effect been _ the position now where russell brand has in effect been found _ the position now where russell brand has in effect been found guilty- the position now where russell brand has in effect been found guilty as - has in effect been found guilty as we've _ has in effect been found guilty as we've heard _ has in effect been found guilty as we've heard implied _ has in effect been found guilty as we've heard implied from - has in effect been found guilty as we've heard implied from your. we've heard implied from your contributors _ we've heard implied from your contributors and _ we've heard implied from your contributors and his _ we've heard implied from your contributors and his name - we've heard implied from your contributors and his name is l contributors and his name is tarnished _ contributors and his name is tarnished for— contributors and his name is tarnished for all— contributors and his name is tarnished for all time. - contributors and his name is tarnished for all time. so. contributors and his name is . tarnished for all time. so what i would _ tarnished for all time. so what i would say— tarnished for all time. so what i would say is _ tarnished for all time. so what i would say is keep— tarnished for all time. so what i would say is keep an _ tarnished for all time. so what i would say is keep an open - tarnished for all time. so what ll would say is keep an open mind. everybody. — would say is keep an open mind. everybody, whether— would say is keep an open mind. everybody, whether they - would say is keep an open mind. everybody, whether they are - would say is keep an open mind. | everybody, whether they are well known _ everybody, whether they are well known or— everybody, whether they are well known or not _ everybody, whether they are well known or not should _ everybody, whether they are well known or not should have - everybody, whether they are well known or not should have the - known or not should have the protection _ known or not should have the protection of _ known or not should have the protection of the _ known or not should have the protection of the law- known or not should have the protection of the law which i known or not should have the - protection of the law which should require _ protection of the law which should require anonymity— protection of the law which should require anonymity until _ protection of the law which should require anonymity until such - protection of the law which should require anonymity until such time| protection of the law which should . require anonymity until such time as they are _ require anonymity until such time as they are charged _ require anonymity until such time as they are charged. for— require anonymity until such time as they are charged.— they are charged. for example, bill cosb , they are charged. for example, bill cosby. harvey _ they are charged. for example, bill cosby, harvey weinstein, _ they are charged. for example, bill cosby, harvey weinstein, all- they are charged. for example, bill cosby, harvey weinstein, all the . cosby, harvey weinstein, all the allegations came forward before there was ever any legal process and because those women had come forward, others were emboldened to do so. that is the other side of the argument, isn't it?— argument, isn't it? that is entirely riaht but argument, isn't it? that is entirely right but here _ argument, isn't it? that is entirely right but here we _ argument, isn't it? that is entirely right but here we have _ argument, isn't it? that is entirely right but here we have four - argument, isn't it? that is entirely right but here we have four who . argument, isn't it? that is entirely i right but here we have four who have come _ right but here we have four who have come forward — right but here we have four who have come forward before _ right but here we have four who have come forward before charge, - right but here we have four who have come forward before charge, there . come forward before charge, there may come forward before charge, there nray be _ come forward before charge, there may be others _ come forward before charge, there may be others who _ come forward before charge, there may be others who want _ come forward before charge, there may be others who want to - come forward before charge, there may be others who want to come l may be others who want to come forward _ may be others who want to come forward but — may be others who want to come forward but if— may be others who want to come forward but if there _ may be others who want to come forward but if there is— may be others who want to come forward but if there is a - may be others who want to come forward but if there is a charge . may be others who want to come l forward but if there is a charge and what _ forward but if there is a charge and

what i _ forward but if there is a charge and what i would — forward but if there is a charge and what i would say _ forward but if there is a charge and what i would say is _ forward but if there is a charge and what i would say is there _ forward but if there is a charge and what i would say is there is- forward but if there is a charge and what i would say is there is a - what i would say is there is a balance _ what i would say is there is a balance to _ what i would say is there is a balance to be _ what i would say is there is a balance to be struck - what i would say is there is a balance to be struck under. what i would say is there is a i balance to be struck under fair balance — balance to be struck under fair balance on— balance to be struck under fair balance on sides _ balance to be struck under fair balance on sides for— balance to be struck under fairi balance on sides for potentially innocent — balance on sides for potentially innocent defendant— balance on sides for potentially innocent defendant and - balance on sides for potentially . innocent defendant and potentially innocent _ innocent defendant and potentially innocent compliments _ innocent defendant and potentially innocent compliments as - innocent defendant and potentially innocent compliments as they - innocent defendant and potentially innocent compliments as they cani innocent compliments as they can come _ innocent compliments as they can come forward _ innocent compliments as they can come forward when _ innocent compliments as they can come forward when they- innocent compliments as they can come forward when they hear- innocent compliments as they can l come forward when they hear about these _ come forward when they hear about these allegations _ come forward when they hear about these allegations at _ come forward when they hear about these allegations at the _ come forward when they hear about these allegations at the point - come forward when they hear about these allegations at the point of - these allegations at the point of charge — these allegations at the point of charge at— these allegations at the point of charge at the _ these allegations at the point of charge. at the moment, - these allegations at the point of charge. at the moment, what . these allegations at the point of| charge. at the moment, what we these allegations at the point of - charge. at the moment, what we are witnessing _ charge. at the moment, what we are witnessing is— charge. at the moment, what we are witnessing is it — charge. at the moment, what we are witnessing is it not _ charge. at the moment, what we are witnessing is it not only— charge. at the moment, what we are witnessing is it not only trial- charge. at the moment, what we are witnessing is it not only trial by - witnessing is it not only trial by media — witnessing is it not only trial by media but— witnessing is it not only trial by media but a _ witnessing is it not only trial by media but a media _ witnessing is it not only trial by media but a media witchhunt! i witnessing is it not only trial by . media but a media witchhunt! and it'siust _ media but a media witchhunt! and it'siust a — media but a media witchhunt! and it's just a front _ media but a media witchhunt! and it's just a front day— media but a media witchhunt! and it's just a front day after— media but a media witchhunt! and it's just a front day after day- it's just a front day after day after — it's just a front day after day after day _ it's just a front day after day after day. be _ it's just a front day after day after day-— it's just a front day after day afterda. . after day. do you feel it is a witch hunt, after day. do you feel it is a witch hunt. ella — after day. do you feel it is a witch hunt. ella and — after day. do you feel it is a witch hunt, ella and debbie? _ after day. do you feel it is a witch hunt, ella and debbie? i - after day. do you feel it is a witch hunt, ella and debbie? i do - after day. do you feel it is a witch hunt, ella and debbie? i do not, l hunt, ella and debbie? i do not, unfortunately — hunt, ella and debbie? i do not, unfortunately it _ hunt, ella and debbie? i do not, unfortunately it sounds - hunt, ella and debbie? i do not, unfortunately it sounds like - hunt, ella and debbie? i do not, unfortunately it sounds like the l hunt, ella and debbie? i do not, i unfortunately it sounds like the lot is far more concerned protecting perpetrators than it is with protecting victims. of course there must be a right until innocent until proved guilty but as i talked about before, the conviction rates are abysmal. to say that people should

be allowed to continue to behave like this, continue to get away with it, unless, ido like this, continue to get away with it, unless, i do nothing for a minute channel four would have put out this programme if had not done a lot of checks and were absolutely being checked by a lot of lawyers to say, you will not get sued for this because they wouldn't have put the programme out. the police would not have gone into such detail in their investigations as the journalist unfortunately had to iron i am not for a moment saying the media is always correct and never lies but i am saying we cannot be more concerned with protecting perpetrators and we are with victims when we know so many women are being sexually assaulted and raped, so few perpetrators convicted and we have historically so many people who are allowed to get away with it, some of them until after they have died. let's bring in richard. i'm so sorry, was that someone else? i'm not sure. carry on.—

sorry, was that someone else? i'm not sure. carry on. was that ella? i 'ust not sure. carry on. was that ella? i just wanted — not sure. carry on. was that ella? i just wanted to _ not sure. carry on. was that ella? i just wanted to say _ not sure. carry on. was that ella? i just wanted to say quickly, - not sure. carry on. was that ella? i just wanted to say quickly, i - not sure. carry on. was that ella? i just wanted to say quickly, i would | just wanted to say quickly, i would like to— just wanted to say quickly, i would like to see — just wanted to say quickly, i would like to see people being held accountable in management who are paid huge _ accountable in management who are paid huge salaries in these... loss of sound — paid huge salaries in these... loss of sound to— paid huge salaries in these... loss of sound. to enable someone to behave — of sound. to enable someone to behave in— of sound. to enable someone to behave in this way for so long. it is a bigger— behave in this way for so long. it is a bigger cultural thing that needs— is a bigger cultural thing that needs to _ is a bigger cultural thing that needs to be looked at, otherwise this would — needs to be looked at, otherwise this would just happen again in the future _ this would 'ust happen again in the future. . . . this would 'ust happen again in the future. . ., , ., ., future. richard is on the world, aood future. richard is on the world, good morning- _ future. richard is on the world, good morning. hello, - future. richard is on the world, good morning. hello, how- future. richard is on the world, good morning. hello, how are. future. richard is on the world, - good morning. hello, how are you? i am fine, thank you.— am fine, thank you. good. your reaction? _ am fine, thank you. good. your reaction? similar— am fine, thank you. good. your reaction? similar to _ am fine, thank you. good. your reaction? similar to previous . reaction? similar to previous callers, i am strongly against the weight they were moving towards trial by media. the weight they were moving towards trial by media.— weight they were moving towards trial b media. , , _, ., trial by media. the endless coverage and analysis — trial by media. the endless coverage and analysis when _ trial by media. the endless coverage

and analysis when these _ trial by media. the endless coverage and analysis when these stories - and analysis when these stories break muddy the waters and move us away from a position someone is able to get a fair trial. and that fair trial is important for the alleged perpetrator but even more so for the victims. the victims are being let down, they have already been let down, they have already been let down by police, by the entertainment industry and i include the news unfortunately in that industry now. because they have not been heard, they have not had the opportunity to have their voices heard. and they are less in the situation they feel it's just their own resource, are less in the situation they feel it'sjust their own resource, it are less in the situation they feel it's just their own resource, it is a very real thing but it doesn't appearfrom a very real thing but it doesn't appear from what a very real thing but it doesn't appearfrom what i'm a very real thing but it doesn't appear from what i'm hearing today and was clearly evident on what your caller from glasgow explained, and was clearly evident on what your callerfrom glasgow explained, that there is not channels for people to be able to have their voices heard. yeah. women have to be, as i said,

emboldened to come forward, they need courage to come forward because as a previous caller said, it takes as a previous caller said, it takes a lot to do that, it takes a hell of a lot to do that, it takes a hell of a lot to stand up in court and go through it again. i know that from the point of view from people who were abused when they were kids as well. we are going to talk about something completely different at ten o'clock, i will remind you that in a moment but i think i got the wrong way round, i think it was in fact russell brand who described owen jones as fact russell brand who described owenjones as george orwell of this generation. i said owenjones as george orwell of this generation. isaid it owenjones as george orwell of this generation. i said it was the other other way round so apologies if that is the case. let me see. there is a channel for statement, let me read that to you in the time left to me. channel four are appalled to learn it is deeply troubling allegations including behaviour alleged to have

taken place in programmes made for channel four. we are determined to understand the full nature of what went on, we have carried out extensive document search is found no evidence to suggest the alleged incidents were brought to the attention of channel four but we will continue to review this in light of information we receive stock i am subbing it a pet for you because it's long. we will be writing to all our current suppliers reminding them of their responsibilities under our code of conduct and we are committed to ensuring our safety, our industries are safe, inclusive and professional working environments. viewers leaving us now on bbc news and bbc two. thank you for watching this morning.

live from london, this is bbc news. straight to central london now, where the former prime minister liz truss will be giving a speech. we expect her to talk a little bit more on the uk bus macro economic problems, pushing some blame on 25 years, as we understand, of economic consensus. you will remember that it is almost a year since her

government 's mini budget, which effectively caused the pound to crash, and ultimately led to her downfall, a short lived administration. we will be hearing from her, speaking from the institute for government here in central government. we are also expecting her to acknowledge that she tried to do things in a rush, but that she could not deliver her plans due to the political and economic establishment. she has briefly been introduced on that stage. our political correspondent is watching this speech. ian, take us through a little bit more of what we are expecting to hear from liz truss. ~ . , ., , , we are expecting to hear from liz truss. . . , ., , , ., ., we are expecting to hear from liz truss. ~ . , ., , , ., ., ., truss. we are probably going to hear a re truss. we are probably going to hear a pretty unapologetic—

truss. we are probably going to hear a pretty unapologetic difference - truss. we are probably going to hear a pretty unapologetic difference of. a pretty unapologetic difference of her record in government, a shorter term