parts of wales and south—west england in particular. temperatures back to average for the time of year.

a politics is transparent and space for a better more honest debate about how we secure. the pm's junked some of boris johnson's commitments — the former pm is furious — but will it cost us all more in the long run? we'll talk live to a former tory energy minster and ex—chancellor, labour's shadow environment secretary, and a conservative mp who is chair of the commons environemtnal audit committee. is the pm right?

also tonight, in the latest in our series on the asylum system and immigration we report around the country on how the activists described as "far right" are accused of infiltrating protests against asylum hotels. once somebody�*s come in with their agenda and used them, my protest, notjust mine. obviously, the people are against genuine protests, very genuine, kind people who are welcoming. we don't want to be tarred with the same brush as those who were maybe there for other reasons. it sounds so simple it makes you wonder why no one has said it before. rishi sunak says the uk can still hit its net zero target by 2050 despite pushing back some of the conservatives�* big green commitments. it's a major shift and sets up big dividing lines between the conservatives and labour ahead of the next election. you've probably heard the details by now that mr sunak has delayed a ban on the sales of new petrol and diesel cars from 2030 to 2035 — in line with germany and france. and he says there will be far more time to transition from boilers to heat pumps. the reason, he says,

is because the targets we had until yesterday would impose costs on people of £5,000 to £15,000. he insists the uk doesn't have to impose those costs on anyone and we can still hit that 2050 target. is he right? we'll put that to labour's shadow environment secretary steve reed, a conservative ex—energy minister and former chancellor kwasi kwarteng, and conservative mp philip dunne, who chairs the environmental audit committee. but first, here's nick. this seems like a big deal, is it? as far as rishi sunak is concerned, this goes way beyond climate. in his mind, he effectively launched phase two of his premiership today. in his final peroration, he talked about how we're going to change the way our politics works. he is casting himself the change candidate. change from all the prime ministers who went before him, change from the person who wants to succeed him as

prime minister. that change has two big themes on climate and on wider areas. the first one is being honest with people and telling them what costs are involved. the second one is being prepared, as he did today, to challenge consensus and then to adapt. for him, phase two of his premiership now is addressing what he calls a longer term questions. that follows phase one, which was about bringing stability. the challenge for rishi sunak is if you become prime minister not with a general election, you just succeed to it, and you want to be the change candidate, you probably need to stamp that message on day one. so, has that message come too late? 50 somehow has that message come too late? so somehow he is different or has changed and he has apparently stopped various things, as well. this tweet we had from rishi sunak this afternoon, we should be able to see it here, has got a lot of attention. the premier society has managed to stop a series of measures. no taxes on eating meat,

no new taxes to discourage flying. you will not be forced to search your rubbish into seven different vents, no compulsory car sharing, and no expensive insulation upgrades. i do have to say i do not think many powerful people were talking about putting new taxes on meat or forcing you to share your car, but i do have to say we did manage to track down one quite powerful person who quite liked the idea of sorting your rubbish into lots of bins. recycling, that is the thing that in our house we are obsessive about. i know it is a pain, you need lots of bins, but it is something that is very good for the environment. that was the leadership to be just over a year ago. time flies. what are the party saying? we over a year ago. time flies. what are the party saying?— are the party saying? we have a divided conservative _ are the party saying? we have a divided conservative party. - are the party saying? we have a| divided conservative party. boris johnson not happy, liz truss is happy. interestingly, it is the middle ground conservative mps who are concerned about what the party described in its last general

election manifesto as the climate emergency. they are giving this a guarded welcome. for the labour leadership, they are accepting the boiler announcement. as you are saying, and because they will restore the 2030 target for phasing out petrol and diesel cars. it will be interesting to see if that 2030 target for labour does make it all the way to their general election manifesto because keir starmer does have a habit of removing things that could be offered in a general election, and he may be thinking carefully about whether, if he sticks with that, the tories might depict him as the enemy of motorists.— depict him as the enemy of motorists. ., ~ , ., , . motorists. thank you very much, nick. the aim of net zero is for the uk to take out of the atmosphere as many greenhouse gas emissions as it puts in. the government has legislated to reach net zero by 2050. let's talk to philip dunne, conservative mp and chair of the

environmental audit committee. former chancellor, business secretary and climate change minister kwasi kwarteng and steve reed, labour's environment secretary. philip dunne, first of all, according to rishi sunak, the uk can reach a net zero in 2050 even with delaying some of these commitments, and it is not going to cost anyone anything. that is brilliant, how come no one has thought of that before? i brilliant, how come no one has thought of that before?- brilliant, how come no one has thought of that before? i think what b minister thought of that before? i think what by minister did _ thought of that before? i think what by minister did today _ thought of that before? i think what by minister did today was _ thought of that before? i think what by minister did today was first - thought of that before? i think what by minister did today was first of. by minister did today was first of all reconfirm his commitment to net zero, the ambition for the uk to continue to show leadership internationally on this, and i think that was very important because people have been raising questions about where he really stood. i think he has made that very clear. secondly what he has done is to look at some of the short policies, immediate policies that were either unsettled, some of the boiler issues, the energy efficiency measures were subject to consultation but had not yet been finalised, he has realised, as ever committee said to him in a report a couple of years ago, that the

numbers on which these policies had been based where under estimates of the cost it would take. for example, to make your home energy efficient, to make your home energy efficient, to be able to work properly with a heat pump. he has made a toast to one side, deferred them until the technology and the supply chain is ready to insult them. i think that is a sensible and pragmatic measure. 0n the core issue, in relation to electric vehicles, all the major countries around the world where cars are manufactured, he would have introduced new sales of petrol and diesel engines have gone to the 2035 date. it diesel engines have gone to the 2035 date. ,., , ~' diesel engines have gone to the 2035 date. ,., , ~ ., _, date. it sounds like a welcome address. date. it sounds like a welcome address- i _ date. it sounds like a welcome address. i think— date. it sounds like a welcome address. i think it _ date. it sounds like a welcome address. i think it is _ date. it sounds like a welcome| address. i think it is pragmatic. date. it sounds like a welcome l address. ithink it is pragmatic. i very much _ address. ithink it is pragmatic. i very much welcome _ address. ithink it is pragmatic. i very much welcome the - address. ithink it is pragmatic. i- very much welcome the commitment to net zero, the commitment to parliamentary scrutiny of the carbon budget, which we have not had. de climate change committee in its sixth carbon budget set if we phased out petrol and diesel cars in 2032,

two years after the government was promising until today, it would take out 90 million tonnes of carbon dioxide and lead to savings of 6 million across 30 years compared to allowing petrol and diesel sold up to 2035. what is the government going to do instead to take 90 million tonnes of c02 out of the atmosphere? million tonnes of c02 out of the atmosphere?— million tonnes of c02 out of the atmoshere? , ~ , ., atmosphere? depay minister today said that we _ atmosphere? depay minister today said that we are _ atmosphere? depay minister today said that we are on _ atmosphere? depay minister today said that we are on track— atmosphere? depay minister today said that we are on track on - atmosphere? depay minister today said that we are on track on our. said that we are on track on our carbon budget. that is true for carbon budget. that is true for carbon budget. that is true for carbon budget for and five. carbon budget six says we are currently at 91% of where we need to be. we are edging towards that. if 91% of where we need to be. we are edging towards that.— edging towards that. if you're -aushin edging towards that. if you're pushing one _ edging towards that. if you're pushing one commitment - edging towards that. if you're | pushing one commitment back edging towards that. if you're - pushing one commitment back and insisting you can still reach 2050, you're going to make it up somewhere else. what is the plan? we you're going to make it up somewhere else. what is the plan?— else. what is the plan? we will have to see. else. what is the plan? we will have to see- the — else. what is the plan? we will have to see. the committee _ else. what is the plan? we will have to see. the committee on _ else. what is the plan? we will have to see. the committee on climate i to see. the committee on climate change will be looking at this announcement today and will make its projections clear. [30 announcement today and will make its projections clear.— projections clear. do you think there is a _ projections clear. do you think there is a plan? _ projections clear. do you think there is a plan? this _ projections clear. do you think there is a plan? this is - projections clear. do you think there is a plan? this is a - projections clear. do you think there is a plan? this is a veryl there is a plan? this is a very complex _ there is a plan? this is a very complex proposition. - there is a plan? this is a very complex proposition. to - there is a plan? this is a very - complex proposition. to decarbonise the whole economy. {iii

complex proposition. to decarbonise the whole economy.— the whole economy. of course. you would have — the whole economy. of course. you would have thought _ the whole economy. of course. you would have thought with _ the whole economy. of course. you would have thought with the - would have thought with the announcement today, the swings and roundabouts, dts would have been crossed on the i started, do you think there is actually a plan? i think there is actually a plan? i think there is actually a plan? i think there is a plan. i think a lot of companies are demonstrating... he told us a lot about it today. hat told us a lot about it today. not reall . told us a lot about it today. not really- you _ told us a lot about it today. not really. you cannot _ told us a lot about it today. not really. you cannot expect - told us a lot about it today. not really. you cannot expect all. told us a lot about it today. not| really. you cannot expect all the detail to be _ really. you cannot expect all the detail to be in _ really. you cannot expect all the detailto be in a _ really. you cannot expect all the detail to be in a speech. - really. you cannot expect all the detailto be in a speech. he - really. you cannot expect all the detailto be in a speech. he said j detail to be in a speech. he said the chancellor would make a statement with the energy secretary on the energy efficiency measures, a whole set of measures coming forward. he said, which i was also encouraged by, he will be going to cop 28, where he will stand in front of the world, confirming his commitments, and he will make his speech on nature before he goes. that is another big area that was not really covered in the speech. climate change committee three months ago warned the government was already dangerously close to being on track for net zero and 2050. that was before today. now they are questioning whether 2050 can be met. you care deeply about 2050, don't

you? we you care deeply about 2050, don't ou? ~ ., you care deeply about 2050, don't ou? . . . you care deeply about 2050, don't ou? . ., ,,, you care deeply about 2050, don't ou? . . you? we have a responsibility for scrutinising _ you? we have a responsibility for scrutinising it. _ you? we have a responsibility for scrutinising it. they _ you? we have a responsibility for scrutinising it. they do _ you? we have a responsibility for scrutinising it. they do not - you? we have a responsibility for scrutinising it. they do not knowl you? we have a responsibility for| scrutinising it. they do not know if it can be met _ scrutinising it. they do not know if it can be met now. _ scrutinising it. they do not know if it can be met now. 2050 - scrutinising it. they do not know if it can be met now. 2050 as - scrutinising it. they do not know if it can be met now. 2050 as many| it can be met now. 2050 as many ears it can be met now. 2050 as many years away. _ it can be met now. 2050 as many years away. lots _ it can be met now. 2050 as many years away, lots of _ it can be met now. 2050 as many years away, lots of things - it can be met now. 2050 as many years away, lots of things will. it can be met now. 2050 as many years away, lots of things will go | years away, lots of things will go right and wrong. the technological innovation is coming at a pace. the take—up of electric vehicles, just to go back to that, it is much faster than had been predicted. 0ver faster than had been predicted. over 800,000 have been sold so far this year, i think i'm right in saying, or the last 12 months. a huge increase, almost quadruple what happened last year. the market is moving the dial ahead of the predictions from the experts. this may well continue in other areas. i am not despondent about this, i think this is a pragmatic set of measures which will help us get there. ., ~' ,, , . measures which will help us get there. . ~ i. , . �*, there. thank you very much. let's talk to kwasi _ there. thank you very much. let's talk to kwasi kwarteng, _ there. thank you very much. let's talk to kwasi kwarteng, energy i talk to kwasi kwarteng, energy minister between 2019 and 2021, then business secretary. good evening. what do you think about the announcement? i what do you think about the announcement?— what do you think about the announcement? ~ announcement? i think there were elements i — announcement? i think there were elements i fully _ announcement? i think there were elements i fully agreed _ announcement? i think there were elements i fully agreed with. - announcement? i think there were elements i fully agreed with. i - announcement? i think there were j elements i fully agreed with. i was concerned — elements i fully agreed with. i was concerned about pushing out the date

for icys _ concerned about pushing out the date for icys phase—out, the internal combustion engine. philip mentioned there has— combustion engine. philip mentioned there has been a huge take—up of electric_ there has been a huge take—up of electric vehicles. the target of 2030 — electric vehicles. the target of 2030 has _ electric vehicles. the target of 2030 has focused the minds of manufacturers, that is what is accelerating and driving a lot of the transition and change. my worry is that_ the transition and change. my worry is that if— the transition and change. my worry is that if you — the transition and change. my worry is that if you push that out, you are sending the wrong signal. as business — are sending the wrong signal. as business secretary, used to go to places— business secretary, used to go to places all— business secretary, used to go to places all around the country, particularly in sunderland, the north—east, there were huge amount of capital— north—east, there were huge amount of capital being deployed because they felt we had very strong and very ambitious targets. they wanted to get— very ambitious targets. they wanted to get behind that movement. of course, _ to get behind that movement. of course, there is some concern... philip _ course, there is some concern... philip has — course, there is some concern... philip has not _ course, there is some concern... philip has not expressed this, but there _ philip has not expressed this, but there is— philip has not expressed this, but there is concern any party that if we relax— there is concern any party that if we relax those targets, we will not -et we relax those targets, we will not get the _ we relax those targets, we will not get the investment and it will be to the detriment ofjobs. rishi get the investment and it will be to the detriment of jobs.— the detriment of “obs. rishi sunak said it was in — the detriment of jobs. rishi sunak said it was in response _ the detriment of jobs. rishi sunak said it was in response to - the detriment of jobs. rishi sunak said it was in response to the - the detriment of jobs. rishi sunak said it was in response to the cost j said it was in response to the cost of living and that people are struggling to make ends meet. there might be some other reviewers saying, we would not be in this position if you and liz truss had

not crashed the economy. irate position if you and liz truss had not crashed the economy. we can talk about interest — not crashed the economy. we can talk about interest rates _ not crashed the economy. we can talk about interest rates and _ not crashed the economy. we can talk about interest rates and the _ not crashed the economy. we can talk about interest rates and the fact - about interest rates and the fact that _ about interest rates and the fact that i'm — about interest rates and the fact that... i'm here to talk about net zero _ that... i'm here to talk about net zero. �* , ., ~' , zero. but there is a link between the cost of _ zero. but there is a link between the cost of living _ zero. but there is a link between the cost of living and _ zero. but there is a link between the cost of living and what - zero. but there is a link between the cost of living and what rishil the cost of living and what rishi sunak is doing today.— sunak is doing today. there is a link to it- _ sunak is doing today. there is a linkto it. all— sunak is doing today. there is a linkto it. all | _ sunak is doing today. there is a link to it. all i would _ sunak is doing today. there is a link to it. all i would say - sunak is doing today. there is a link to it. all i would say about | link to it. all i would say about that _ link to it. all i would say about that is— link to it. all i would say about that is that, with respect to the cars: _ that is that, with respect to the cars. which— that is that, with respect to the cars, which i was talking about, the electric— cars, which i was talking about, the electric vehicles, that is not something that it necessarily is going _ something that it necessarily is going to — something that it necessarily is going to affect the cost of living. what _ going to affect the cost of living. what it _ going to affect the cost of living. what it does do as it encourages people _ what it does do as it encourages people to — what it does do as it encourages people to invest, investors to invest — people to invest, investors to invest in— people to invest, investors to invest in the energy transition. i am not — invest in the energy transition. i am not going to re—litigate my period — am not going to re—litigate my period as _ am not going to re—litigate my period as chancellor. that was not something — period as chancellor. that was not something i was asked... perfectly entitled _ something i was asked... perfectly entitled |n— something i was asked... perfectly entitled. , ., , ., entitled. in terms of the costs on eo - le, entitled. in terms of the costs on people. rishi _ entitled. in terms of the costs on people, rishi sunak— entitled. in terms of the costs on people, rishi sunak said - entitled. in terms of the costs on people, rishi sunak said he - entitled. in terms of the costs on | people, rishi sunak said he would not impose £5,000, £10,000, £15,000 on people. he said it was not right for people in westminster to do that. he has got a point. i for people in westminster to do that. he has got a point.- for people in westminster to do that. he has got a point. i think he

does. in respect _ that. he has got a point. i think he does. in respect of _ that. he has got a point. i think he does. in respect of one _ that. he has got a point. i think he does. in respect of one particular i does. in respect of one particular policy, _ does. in respect of one particular policy, the — does. in respect of one particular policy, the rest of the statement i thought— policy, the rest of the statement i thought was very strong, i think his temperament and approach is right, it has— temperament and approach is right, it has got— temperament and approach is right, it has got to be a balanced approach. we are not equal extremist, but at the same time we are not— extremist, but at the same time we are not climate change deniers. we think— are not climate change deniers. we think there — are not climate change deniers. we think there is a opportunity in the transition — think there is a opportunity in the transition. with respect to the 2030 date, _ transition. with respect to the 2030 date, that— transition. with respect to the 2030 date, that was something that he signed _ date, that was something that he signed up — date, that was something that he signed up to as chancellor, that was something _ signed up to as chancellor, that was something the whole government signed _ something the whole government signed up to the whole time i was in government. do signed up to the whole time i was in government-— government. do you remember him raisin an government. do you remember him raising any objections? _ government. do you remember him raising any objections? we - government. do you remember him raising any objections? we had - raising any ob'ections? we had discussions, _ raising any objections? we had discussions, i— raising any objections? we had discussions, i think— raising any objections? we had discussions, i think you - raising any objections? we had discussions, i think you had . raising any objections? we had i discussions, i think you had some doubts. _ discussions, i think you had some doubts. hut— discussions, i think you had some doubts, but in the end we all signed up doubts, but in the end we all signed up to— doubts, but in the end we all signed up to it _ doubts, but in the end we all signed up to it he — doubts, but in the end we all signed u- to it. . ., ., , doubts, but in the end we all signed u- to it. ., , up to it. he could have resigned as chancellor — up to it. he could have resigned as chancellor if _ up to it. he could have resigned as chancellor if he _ up to it. he could have resigned as chancellor if he felt _ up to it. he could have resigned as chancellor if he felt so strongly - chancellor if he felt so strongly about it. in chancellor if he felt so strongly about it. ., about it. in the end he did, for different reasons. _ about it. in the end he did, for different reasons. when - about it. in the end he did, for different reasons. when i - about it. in the end he did, for. different reasons. when i spoke about it. in the end he did, for- different reasons. when i spoke to industry— different reasons. when i spoke to industry players, investors, they were _ industry players, investors, they were very— industry players, investors, they were very impressed at the ambition that we _ were very impressed at the ambition that we described, that we set forward — that we described, that we set forward. the 2030 date was very much in people's— forward. the 2030 date was very much in people's minds. that is why it hrought— in people's minds. that is why it brought investment and that is why the take—up that philip is loading happened. we had these ambitious

targets _ happened. we had these ambitious taraets. ~ ., happened. we had these ambitious tar ets_ . ., ., , happened. we had these ambitious taraets. ~ . ~ happened. we had these ambitious tar ets_ . ., ., , ~' ., happened. we had these ambitious tar1ets_ . ., ., , ~' ., ., targets. what was it like to hear the home secretary _ targets. what was it like to hear the home secretary on - targets. what was it like to hear the home secretary on the - targets. what was it like to hearj the home secretary on the radio saying that at 2030 target was an unrealistic and arbitrary target. ? every target is arbitrary. i was surprised _ every target is arbitrary. i was surprised she said it was unrealistic because that is what we were all— unrealistic because that is what we were all working to. every investor in the _ were all working to. every investor in the sector— were all working to. every investor in the sector i spoke to was looking at the _ in the sector i spoke to was looking at the 2030 target. some people had issues _ at the 2030 target. some people had issues with— at the 2030 target. some people had issues with it, but they got on and made _ issues with it, but they got on and made their— issues with it, but they got on and made their plans accordingly. i think— made their plans accordingly. i think that _ made their plans accordingly. i think that was something that was very good — think that was something that was very good forjob creation. rishi very good for 'ob creation. rishi sunak very good for 'ob creation. rishi sunak said _ very good forjob creation. rishi sunak said today _ very good forjob creation. rishi sunak said today you _ very good forjob creation. rishi sunak said today you do - very good forjob creation. i1 si sunak said today you do not reach net zero simply by wishing it, yet thatis net zero simply by wishing it, yet that is precisely what previous governments have done. does that sound like he is trashing your record, borisjohnson's record? he record, boris johnson's record? he was record, borisjohnson's record? he was chancellor of the exchequer for two and _ was chancellor of the exchequer for two and half years in those previous governments. it is not as if he was a backbencher or someone with little influence _ a backbencher or someone with little influence will stop he was right at the centre — influence will stop he was right at the centre of it. i thought that was odd, _ the centre of it. i thought that was odd to _ the centre of it. i thought that was odd to say— the centre of it. i thought that was odd, to say that previous governments had wished it. i have lots of— governments had wished it. i have lots of discussions with him, very fruitful— lots of discussions with him, very fruitful discussions when we were both fruitful discussions when we were hoth in— fruitful discussions when we were both in cabinet. he was very open

minded _ both in cabinet. he was very open minded and — both in cabinet. he was very open minded and very dynamically involved in a net _ minded and very dynamically involved in a not zero — minded and very dynamically involved in a net zero policy. wide of the government has moved the goalposts for business today, whether you like it or not. _ for business today, whether you like it or not, with business likes it or not _ it or not, with business likes it or not. , ., , , it or not, with business likes it or not. _,, , ., it or not, with business likes it or not. , ., ., it or not, with business likes it or not. ., ., , not. the boss of ford is pretty an . not. the boss of ford is pretty angry- how — not. the boss of ford is pretty angry. how important - not. the boss of ford is pretty angry. how important is - not. the boss of ford is pretty angry. how important is it - not. the boss of ford is pretty angry. how important is it for| angry. how important is it for business now that the timetable does stick to 2035? you business now that the timetable does stick to 2035?— stick to 2035? you refer to my aeriod stick to 2035? you refer to my period as _ stick to 2035? you refer to my period as chancellor _ stick to 2035? you refer to my period as chancellor last - stick to 2035? you refer to my period as chancellor last year, j stick to 2035? you refer to my| period as chancellor last year, i know _ period as chancellor last year, i know fully — period as chancellor last year, i know fully well that uncertainty is something that markets and investors cannot _ something that markets and investors cannot withstand. they want certainty, they want direction. 0n certainty, they want direction. on this, _ certainty, they want direction. on this, i_ certainty, they want direction. on this, ithink— certainty, they want direction. on this, i think we need to have a degree — this, i think we need to have a degree of— this, i think we need to have a degree of certainty. i was quite surprised — degree of certainty. i was quite surprised also that labour immediately said they would reverse it back _ immediately said they would reverse it back if _ immediately said they would reverse it back. if they are going to stick with that, — it back. if they are going to stick with that, that creates in itself a whole _ with that, that creates in itself a whole bunch of uncertainty. 0n the outcome _ whole bunch of uncertainty. 0n the outcome of — whole bunch of uncertainty. 0n the outcome of the election, it will determine whether this target is five years— determine whether this target is five years or not. is determine whether this target is five years or not. is it determine whether this target is five years or not.— determine whether this target is five years or not. is it crucial now that we stick _ five years or not. is it crucial now that we stick to _ five years or not. is it crucial now that we stick to 2035? _ five years or not. is it crucial now that we stick to 2035? | - five years or not. is it crucial now that we stick to 2035? i think - five years or not. is it crucial now that we stick to 2035? i think the government _ that we stick to 2035? i think the government has _ that we stick to 2035? i think the government has made _ that we stick to 2035? i think the government has made its - that we stick to 2035? i think the government has made its bed . that we stick to 2035? i think the | government has made its bed and that we stick to 2035? i think the i government has made its bed and it should _ government has made its bed and it should lie _ government has made its bed and it should lie in— government has made its bed and it should lie in it and stick to that

date _ should lie in it and stick to that date. ., ~ should lie in it and stick to that date. . ,, i. should lie in it and stick to that date. ., ~' ,, , should lie in it and stick to that date. . ,, i. , . should lie in it and stick to that date. . «i i. , . �*, date. thank you very much. let's brina in date. thank you very much. let's bring in steve — date. thank you very much. let's bring in steve reed. _ date. thank you very much. let's bring in steve reed. businessesl date. thank you very much. let's - bring in steve reed. businesses want certainty. we have said you will switch back to 2030 if labour win the next election. you will cause more uncertainty.— the next election. you will cause more uncertainty. this is an act of weakness from _ more uncertainty. this is an act of weakness from a _ more uncertainty. this is an act of weakness from a directionless - more uncertainty. this is an act of. weakness from a directionless prime minister and you have to question whether this government has an economic or industrial strategy. he is actually throwing away one of the greatest opportunities of the 21st century which is for the uk to lead the world in the transition to the green economy with all the jobs that will bring. he is causing huge uncertainty in the business world and is deterring inward investment by what he has done. all of that is the result of this short—term, narrow, what he sees as party political advantage but even that you have heard is blowing up in his face. ii you have heard is blowing up in his face. ., face. if labour when the next aeneral face. if labour when the next general election _ face. if labour when the next general election you - face. if labour when the next general election you have - face. if labour when the next - general election you have already said you will reverse it to 2030, you must accept that will create

more uncertainty. the you must accept that will create more uncertainty.— you must accept that will create more uncertainty. the election will come within _ more uncertainty. the election will come within 12 _ more uncertainty. the election will come within 12 months. _ more uncertainty. the election will come within 12 months. a - more uncertainty. the election will come within 12 months. a lot - more uncertainty. the election will come within 12 months. a lot of. more uncertainty. the election will| come within 12 months. a lot of the come within12 months. a lot of the investment from the motor industry is already gone in towards 2020. so when the tories change sings it creates uncertainty but when labour changed things it doesn't? rishi sunak are selling _ changed things it doesn't? rishi sunak are selling those - changed things it doesn't? i si sunak are selling those companies to write off investments they have made. we are not going to do that. when did he say that? bi; made. we are not going to do that. when did he say that? by scrapping the tar: et when did he say that? by scrapping the target they _ when did he say that? by scrapping the target they are _ when did he say that? by scrapping the target they are working - when did he say that? by scrapping the target they are working towards he is undermining the investment i have already put in and it is not just me saying that, you had the chairman of ford saying that, other captains of industry saying that. as a big global investors are looking at which country to invest in as we transition to this new economy, are they going to pick a government which is stable and predictable in their approach to the green economy or will they choose a flip—flop? fin or will they choose a flip-flop? on the or will they choose a flip—flop? 0n the subject of flip—flopping are you sure sir keir starmer is going to switch it back to 2030 if labour win because he has done a few flip—flops in his time? because he has done a few flip-flops in his time?— in his time? absolutely, he is completely — in his time? absolutely, he is completely committed. - in his time? absolutely, he is completely committed. he i in his time? absolutely, he is. completely committed. he was

committed _ completely committed. he was committed to _ completely committed. he was committed to scrapping - completely committed. he was committed to scrapping tuition | completely committed. he was - committed to scrapping tuition fees and bringing public utilities make he is committed to the green prosperity plan of which this is one small part. ii prosperity plan of which this is one small art. , ., prosperity plan of which this is one small art. ,, ., ., ~i prosperity plan of which this is one small aart. ,, ., ., «i ., small part. if you look at the proposals — small part. if you look at the proposals to _ small part. if you look at the proposals to create - small part. if you look at the proposals to create gb - small part. if you look at the i proposals to create gb energy, small part. if you look at the - proposals to create gb energy, a publicly owned company that will create private as well as public money... create private as well as public money- - -_ create private as well as public mone ., money... he was committed to scrapping _ money... he was committed to scrapping the _ money... he was committed to scrapping the top _ money... he was committed to scrapping the top rate - money. .. he was committed to scrapping the top rate of- money... he was committed to l scrapping the top rate of income money... he was committed to - scrapping the top rate of income tax and has changed his mind on that. the green prosperity plan is the centre of labour's. what but you are allowed to put a stop back? that is allowed to put a stop back? that is a misunderstanding of what labour is doing. it a misunderstanding of what labour is doinu. , , , a misunderstanding of what labour is doin1. , , , a misunderstanding of what labour is doin1. ,, , doing. it is pushing back your investment. _ doing. it is pushing back your investment. you _ doing. it is pushing back your investment. you can - doing. it is pushing back your investment. you can come i doing. it is pushing back your investment. you can come in| doing. it is pushing back your. investment. you can come in as doing. it is pushing back your- investment. you can come in as a government _ investment. you can come in as a government and _ investment. you can come in as a government and spent _ investment. you can come in as a government and spent 28 - investment. you can come in as a government and spent 28 billion l investment. you can come in as a l government and spent 28 billion in year one without doing preparatory work. ., �* , ., year one without doing preparatory work. . �*, ., i. year one without doing preparatory work. . �*, ., ,., , work. that's what you promise initiall . work. that's what you promise initially. you _ work. that's what you promise initially. you cannot _ work. that's what you promise initially. you cannot spend - work. that's what you promise | initially. you cannot spend that much in year — initially. you cannot spend that much in year one _ initially. you cannot spend that much in year one because - initially. you cannot spend that much in year one because you | initially. you cannot spend that - much in year one because you have to do the work so it's a sensible... you didn't say that in the beginning. you didn't say that in the beginning-— you didn't say that in the beginning. you didn't say that in the beainnin1. , , beginning. rachel reeves has been absolutely clear _ beginning. rachel reeves has been absolutely clear this _ beginning. rachel reeves has been absolutely clear this is _ beginning. rachel reeves has been absolutely clear this is how - beginning. rachel reeves has been absolutely clear this is how we - beginning. rachel reeves has been absolutely clear this is how we will| absolutely clear this is how we will do it, you have to build up to spend that much, take that private sector with the as you do it, but there is

a promise here, one country in the world is going to become the leader in the transition to the green economy, our country for a century because of the industrial revolution achieved huge economic benefits. that prize is there again and today rishi sunak sought that window. do you want to impose costs of £10,000 on people? the reason labour wants to help transition the economy is because we can cut people's bills. the kind of investment in sustainable energy i was just talking about three gigabytes energy will give us not only a more secure supply of energy so we are no longer dependent on the volatile dictators like vladimir putin, we create our energy at home, more secure supplies but crucially... energy at home, more secure supplies but crucially- - -— but crucially... what is the answer to my question? — but crucially... what is the answer to my question? the _ but crucially... what is the answer to my question? the heat - but crucially... what is the answer to my question? the heat pump . but crucially... what is the answer - to my question? the heat pump issues was not a target _ to my question? the heat pump issues was not a target ever— to my question? the heat pump issues was not a target ever set, _ to my question? the heat pump issues was not a target ever set, that - to my question? the heat pump issues was not a target ever set, that was - was not a target ever set, that was a government target that they have now jettisoned. a government target that they have nowjettisoned. you can't impose additional costs on families at a time like this without having first of all put in the investment that will make heat pumps of a comparable

cost of that kind of conventional boilers people using now. which is what the scrappage _ boilers people using now. which is what the scrappage scheme - boilers people using now. which is what the scrappage scheme does, | boilers people using now. which is i what the scrappage scheme does, by increasing _ what the scrappage scheme does, by increasing by— what the scrappage scheme does, by increasing by 50%_ what the scrappage scheme does, by increasing by 50% to _ what the scrappage scheme does, by increasing by 50% to 7500 _ what the scrappage scheme does, by increasing by 50% to 7500 a - what the scrappage scheme does, by increasing by 50% to 7500 a grant i increasing by 50% to 7500 a grant for anybody — increasing by 50% to 7500 a grant for anybody changing _ increasing by 50% to 7500 a grant for anybody changing their- increasing by 50% to 7500 a grant for anybody changing their fossil i for anybody changing their fossil fuel boilers _ for anybody changing their fossil fuel boilers. iinfill— for anybody changing their fossil fuel boilers-— for anybody changing their fossil| fuel boilers._ labour fuel boilers. will max at? labour never subscribed _ fuel boilers. will max at? labour never subscribed to _ fuel boilers. will max at? labour never subscribed to that. - fuel boilers. will max at? labour never subscribed to that. it - fuel boilers. will max at? labour| never subscribed to that. it came out today from — never subscribed to that. it came out today from the _ never subscribed to that. it came out today from the government. | never subscribed to that. it came i out today from the government. we have out today from the government. have talked about investing public and private money to make sure we get this transition so we can cut household bills. it is a conservative that were proposing to what some up and now have to have a. i had deposited there. i would you have all in a conversation but he wanted it to be done separately. it depends what the deal was actually. thank— depends what the deal was actually. thank you _ depends what the deal was actually. thank you for being her. all week we've been looking at the impact of the asylum system on the uk, and we've a live studio debate on the issue tomorrow. tonight, an investigation by bbc newsnight has found that groups described as "far right" have organised or attended 50 protests since the start of the year, mostly focussed on hotel accommodation for asylum seekers. the groups, who operate

across the country, have been accused of infiltrating legitimate community organised protests in a bid to spread what has been described as their "extreme ideology". their members include individuals who have engaged in openly racist behaviour and who have expressed admiration for adolf hitler. i must warn you this film contains some extremely offensive content. yasminara khan reports on the protests. the word illegal means no right to be here! these are just some of the protests that have taken place in 2023. nazis! off our streets! small boats, asylum seekers and migrants has become a political battleground, and an issue for communities across the country. they are not refugees, they are illegal immigrants! why are these people who are illegal, they have no documentation, why are they being given a four hotel?

here in llanelli, people have been protesting about plans for asylum seekers to be placed in a 4—star hotel they say is important to local economy. but this situation has given leverage to groups described as far right who are taking advantage of the tensions and infiltrating community organised protests. one of them is patriotic alternative. a group run by mark collet, a former leading member of the british national party, who has expressed admiration for adolf hitler and recommends mein kampf to his supporters. matt collins is a former member of far right groups who now works for hope not hate, a group that campaigns against them. these people are quite skilled at getting into communities and causing trouble and stirring things up. patriotic alternative are incredibly active. they are not a particularly large organisation, but they are incredibly active and incredibly dedicated. i'd say there's maybe around 400 people here today. these protests are getting

bigger and bigger. the group's ideology is based around the far—right conspiracy theory of white genocide, a rhetoric that falsely claims there is a covert plan to replace white populations with ethnically diverse communities. on their ideology, patriotic alternative told us... we have talked about some of them, the great replacement theory, white supremacism, neo—nazism, that is what i would describe as unlawful terrorist activity that would put them right in the crosshairs of mi5 and counterterrorism police. the town of furness has attracted attention from groups described as far right from outside the area. but there are groups getting involved in local protests closer to home in the form

of voice of wales, who described themselves as investigative journalists and travelled the uk to conduct interviews. look, it makes you question absolutely... one voice of wales member has a strong history of affiliation to other hard right groups, and another, james harvey, from the voice of wales student wing, is seen questioning the holocaust. what you're about to hear is extremely offensive. you look into hitler and you look into what the nazi party did — and i am not defending them at all — but 6 millionjews were not killed. the reason i say that is because if you look at the concentration camps, most of them were not equipped with gas chambers. and here, dan morgan and james harvey discussing the ban on tom jones' song delilah from international rugby in cardiff. apparently it was sung but apparently it wasn't hurt. now, i don't know much about that. i'm thinking it's not somalian enough, really, is it, for cardiff? that's what they want, they want the somalian anthem.

what is their anthem? i couldn't tell you, to be honest with you. voice of wales said the comments made by mr harvey had been taken out of context. he has since clarified his position. he fully believes that the genocide and horrific mass murder of millions of people, jews and others, took place during world war ii. the group failed to explain the comments and the hand gestures used when discussing somalis. patriotic alternative and voice of wales are different groups with different members, goals and beliefs, but both groups travel around the country in a bid to spread their message. for the first time, we have been able to track the movements of these two groups, finding out where they are protesting and which places they repeatedly return to. analysis by bbc verify and newsnight shows they cumulatively organised or attended 50 protests since the start of the year, with the vast majority focusing on accommodation for asylum seekers.

they have been all over the uk, including scotland, but favour some areas, with multiple visits to the same location, like long eaton and haydock. you might remember the noisy demonstration which quickly descended into violence, resulting in a police van being set on fire. and here, you can see the voice of wales protests in blue. the majority are in wales, but some have spilled over the border into england, like in portland, manchester and scampton. and like patriotic alternative, they return to the same sites multiple times, with their key focus on swansea and llanelli. i think there are two things here. people have a genuine concern about large quantities of people coming into areas and the pressure they are putting on local services, schools, doctors and everything else. whether they are people coming from abroad or big developments mean huge pressure on local services. those are legitimate concerns.

what we are seeing here, though, are people who have no local interests, they are just anti—immigrant, they are racists, and they want to take advantage of people who have got genuine local concerns in order to push their own racist agendas. the idea that they would be using a local protest who might have legitimate concerns about immigration, if that balanced debate is hijacked by people who start talking about invasion and start talking about these people being dangerous, that is an extremist conversation. it drives a polarised debate, it means people from the extreme right—wing get very heated, which means people protesting against them from the extreme left get very heated, and then you are going to see violence, and then you are going to see a problem for law and order. the bibby stockholm is moored in dorset. it is currently empty, but forms part of efforts by the home office to reduce the £8 million daily bill

to taxpayers by moving asylum seekers out of hotels and into alternative accommodation. it has caused some unease amongst locals, and it has beenjumped on by both patriotic alternative and the voice of wales. the reason why the stomach the stomach reason why voice | of wales is here is because this affects everybody. everybody in the united kingdom. the tap needs turning off. unlike voice of wales, patriotic alternative organises protests such as this one here in portland. it was a small group and it had a low turnout. one of them was michelle vardy, a concerned local who we also found had been posting in anti—asylum facebook groups. this is a poor area and a lot of people, they can't even afford to feed their children three meals a day in the school holidays. yet they've seen a barge coming in. 0ur government is paying for three

meals a day for them. and would it worry you if you knew that the leader of that group has sympathies towards adolf hitler, for example? if that's the case, yes. but i also understand that a lot of these groups that are against all the illegal immigrants coming here, they always get slurred with far right and racist tendencies from other groups like stand up to racism when i'm not sure that's the case. michelle told us she engages with both left and right wing groups on facebook. 250 miles north in wigan, another demonstration took place. maureen 0'bern is a local independent councillor in wigan. after listening to the concerns of constituents, she organised a small protest against the plans for residents. but it was infiltrated by patriotic alternative.

it was mainly there was about 200 to 300 people came, very genuinely concerned people who live locally and i think it's very unfair that the main hotel that they use for weddings, there's a lot of people employed here butjust losing that without consultation. at that protest, a group called patriotic alternative came down. did you know about that? i'd put a post on facebook stating no one from the far right, far left any organisations like that were welcome. it was purely for genuinely concerned residents of wigan and standish. i think a few did turn up from is it patriotic alternative? i'd never heard of them. i didn't know who they were. i don't want somebody come in with their agenda and using my protest, notjust mine, obviously, the people who are genuine protesters, very genuine, kind people who are welcoming. we don't want to be tarred with the same brush as those who were maybe there for other reasons, pushing their own agenda. we don't want that. patriotic alternative say they've been welcomed by communities all over the uk. there is a very different agenda by some of these racist groups

where they're talking about no more migrants, we're full, talking about white genocide, really trying to whip up fears, completely legitimate fears amongst reasonable and moderate people. those are the people we absolutely need to guard against. as thousands continue to cross the channel in small boats and the urgent need to house asylum seekers persists, this is an issue that will continue to ignite communities and in turn gives far right groups furtive ground to exploit existing tensions in a bid to spread their ideology. yasminara khan. tomorrow on newsnight we're devoting our whole programme to a live debate of the issues around the impact of the asylum system, featuring with those who have crossed the channel in boats, former border force officials, experts on the law — and the numbers — and those who want to reduce levels

of immigration to this country, and we'll have the immigration minister, and shadow immigration minister live in the studio as we look at ways to solve the problem. back to the main story of the day now. the pm has delayed some of the measures put in place to hit the legal target of hitting net zero by 2050. earlier we looked at the politics of his decisions. in a minute, we'll hear from someone representing landlords, who have welcomed some of the announcements, and from energy uk, who don't. but how did we get here, and who is set to save money as a result? here'sjoe. the tories once said: "vote blue and go green". the "hug a husky" prime minister promised the greenest government ever. but david cameron somewhat cooled off in office, reportedly telling advisers to "cut the green crap". rishi sunak was part of a government which laid out some of the most ambitious net zero targets in the world. but today is he also dropping down a gear? he says policy should be proportionate and not burden working families. but will this current plan make reaching net zero by 2050 any more affordable? whether net zero is an economic net

loss or gain depends on when you're asking. this blue line shows the massive investment needed by the uk. according to the independent climate change committee, it'll likely hover around the 50 billion a year mark — 1.5% of gdp — for decades. now, the red line is what is expected in savings. they'll come, but gradually. we should reach 60 billion a year in savings by 2050. split the difference and you can see when net zero is losing us money — in the next two decades — and when it's saving us money. the estimate is 2044 is the break even point. so, we've seen the picture for the uk as whole. but what about consumers, many of whom have been hit by the high cost of living? rishi sunak used one word today 27 times today — change. and he framed all these changes in terms of affordability and the cost of living.

he said boiler upgrade grants will be more generous. but what about the longer transition from boilers to heat pumps? what will that mean for poorer people in rented accommodation? landlords won't be obliged to improve the efficiency of their homes. and in england alone, there is nearly 3 million properties in the private rented sector that fall below the government's efficiency target, with more than 7 million people living in them. so this means that these people will not have any effort to make their energy bills lowered because renters aren't going to spend their own money on improving their landlord's property. and what about delaying the deadline on the sale of new diesel and petrol cars? does it help those on low incomes? drivers are told of the savings to be made on running costs of electric cars, but how does today's announcement regarding buying those cars filter through, cars filter through? poor households are much more likely to buy cars from the second—hand market,

and as such the vehicle stock that from the second—hand market. and what we see at the moment is new electric car sales are mainly big, expensive, costly to run electric vehicles. and, you know, when these to filter through into the second—hand market, these are not the sort of cars that will be beneficial and will be attractive to lower income households. labour say they'd reverse delaying that deadline. but a poll from yougov tonight suggests far more voters support the government's move than don't. people care about the climate change, but seem to be happier when the policy involves subsidies rather than penalties. if you think the public will stay united on green policies, just look to germany where the ruling coalition has faced a public backlash over its plans on heat pumps. in the netherlands, farmers have been kicking off about plans to cut animal numbers to curb nitrogen emissions. while coal—dependant poland is fighting the eu to keep its coal subsidies. climate policy whiplash isn'tjust a phenomenon here at home. well, here with some of the views of industry and business are dhara vyas, deputy ceo of energy uk — who represent most of the firms that operate right across the enrgy sector — and ben beadle, a landlord and chief executive of the national residential landlords association.

welcome to both of you. you represent so many companies across the spectrum of the energy sector. broadly, what is their reaction to the announcement?— broadly, what is their reaction to the announcement? broadly speaking, the announcement? broadly speaking, the prime minister _ the announcement? broadly speaking, the prime minister was _ the announcement? broadly speaking, the prime minister was right _ the announcement? broadly speaking, the prime minister was right to - the prime minister was right to identify that we do need to consider what that public conversation is about getting to net zero, but really the biggest concern for the energy industry right now is what the pronouncements today, what signals they send to investors, the investors that we desperately need to invest in clean energy technologies right across the uk. what signal do you think it is sent to investors?— to investors? what we need is stable, dependable, _ to investors? what we need is i stable, dependable, predictable policy and government in this country. we have not had that. we are in a global race for investment. countries like the usa, france, germany, india, china, they are doing a lot to attract global investment in clean energy technology. it is about ensuring we

are investing in energy security, getting off fossil fuels, are investing in energy security, getting off fossilfuels, not relying on imported gas, making sure our systems are clearer. we are not sending those signals. capital has a choice of location. let sending those signals. capital has a choice of location.— choice of location. let me talk to ben. choice of location. let me talk to item from _ choice of location. let me talk to item from a _ choice of location. let me talk to ben. from a landlord's— choice of location. let me talk to ben. from a landlord's point- choice of location. let me talk to ben. from a landlord's point of. ben. from a landlord's point of view, what you make of the decision for more people to transition from boiler to heat pumps? brute for more people to transition from boiler to heat pumps?— for more people to transition from boiler to heat pumps? we think the announcement _ boiler to heat pumps? we think the announcement is _ boiler to heat pumps? we think the announcement is broadly _ boiler to heat pumps? we think the announcement is broadly sensible. | announcement is broadly sensible. but, crikey, — announcement is broadly sensible. but, crikey, talk about creating a massive — but, crikey, talk about creating a massive amount of uncertainty. we feel this _ massive amount of uncertainty. we feel this is — massive amount of uncertainty. we feel this is very avoidable because people _ feel this is very avoidable because people have already taken steps to off-load _ people have already taken steps to off—load properties before these things— off—load properties before these things were going to come in. i do worry— things were going to come in. i do worry that — things were going to come in. i do worry that many people have had to leave _ worry that many people have had to leave their — worry that many people have had to leave their homes because of so much uncertainty _ leave their homes because of so much uncertainty about the £10,000 cap and the _ uncertainty about the £10,000 cap and the direction of travel without and the direction of travel without a clear— and the direction of travel without a clear strategy. it is really problematic and totally avoidable. what mean you worry people will have had to leave their homes? what

had to leave their homes? what haaaens had to leave their homes? what happens is _ had to leave their homes? what happens is government - had to leave their homes? what happens is government announced that over two— happens is government announced that over two years ago and they have said very— over two years ago and they have said very little sense. we have seen two years _ said very little sense. we have seen two years of— said very little sense. we have seen two years of dither and delay, they announced — two years of dither and delay, they announced their intention is that landlords— announced their intention is that landlords would have to pay up to £10,000 — landlords would have to pay up to £10,000 in terms of improvements to aet £10,000 in terms of improvements to get to— £10,000 in terms of improvements to get to an _ £10,000 in terms of improvements to get to an epc sea. so, what has happened — get to an epc sea. so, what has happened is those underperforming properties have been exited from the sector, _ properties have been exited from the sector, they have been lost from the sector, _ sector, they have been lost from the sector, and — sector, they have been lost from the sector, and tenets have been asked to leave their homes. not in every casea _ to leave their homes. not in every case, but — to leave their homes. not in every case, but landers have taken steps to protect — case, but landers have taken steps to protect their investments. as i say, _ to protect their investments. as i say, may— to protect their investments. as i say. may be _ to protect their investments. as i say, may be a worry is that this dither— say, may be a worry is that this dither and _ say, may be a worry is that this dither and delay has really adversely affected the supply of homes — adversely affected the supply of homes when already we do not have enough _ homes when already we do not have enough it— homes when already we do not have enough it is— homes when already we do not have enough. it is catastrophic. catastrophic. what do you say about that? i' , ., , ., that? i think the government should have considered _ that? i think the government should have considered the _ that? i think the government should have considered the timescales - that? i think the government should have considered the timescales for l have considered the timescales for landlords, absolutely. ithink have considered the timescales for landlords, absolutely. i think there was a lot of delay. however, one in four households in the private rented sector are in fuel poverty. citizens advice today put out

figures that seen by the end of this year people in private rented sector will have paid £1.1 billion more on bills than they would have had to if their homes were more efficient. that is a massive sum. does that suggest to both of you that you can push these things back, but in the end you will pay more? for push these things back, but in the end you will pay more?— push these things back, but in the end you will pay more? for me, but i think it means _ end you will pay more? for me, but i think it means is _ end you will pay more? for me, but i think it means is that _ end you will pay more? for me, but i think it means is that we _ end you will pay more? for me, but i think it means is that we need - end you will pay more? for me, but i think it means is that we need a - think it means is that we need a proper plan and delivery schedule. ultimately, in the uk we have got the latest homes in europe, we do need to improve those homes, we do need to improve those homes, we do need to improve those homes, we do need to decarbonise the heat in those homes. the best way to save money on energy is by using less and making our homes more efficient. what do you say to that, ben? i absolutely agree with that. we want to see _ absolutely agree with that. we want to see rented properties as energy efficient— to see rented properties as energy efficient as possible, but government needs to set out a proper strategy— government needs to set out a proper strategy when it comes to achieving this. strategy when it comes to achieving this we _ strategy when it comes to achieving this. we heard from kwasi kwarteng in the _ this. we heard from kwasi kwarteng in the previous piece saying that industry— in the previous piece saying that industry needs confidence. people need _ industry needs confidence. people need to— industry needs confidence. people need to know what the rules of the

game _ need to know what the rules of the game are _ need to know what the rules of the game are so that they can plan accordingly.