south—west england. maybe a few spots of rain in northern ireland. but by afternoon, most of saturday is dry, bright and sunny. heading into sunday, we have wet and windy weather moving on, particularly to northern and western areas, some of it really heavy. and next week, it looks like it's going to be quite unsettled, a mixture of sunshine and showers. but temperatures for the most part will be running a bit above average for the time of year, so it will stay on the mild side. but some of the showers or outbreaks of rain could be quite heavy. thanks, chris. and that's bbc news at ten. there's more analysis of the day's main stories on newsnight with victoria derbyshire, which is just getting under way on bbc two. they've got a special programme this evening about migrant boat crossings. the news continues here on bbc one, as now it's time to join our colleagues for the news where you are. channel crossings, the debate.

good evening. migration and how to reform our asylum system are set to be some of the defining issues of the next general election. the government and labour have competing plans to tackle it, although everyone agrees the criminal gangs who charge people thousands of pounds to put them in a dinghy to cross the channel have to be stopped. tonight, we're going to talk about those competing proposals — which will work, if any? and explore how we've got to a point where all agree the asylum system is operating neither efficiently nor effectively, costing taxpayers around £4 billion a year, up 100% in 12 months. we're going to hear this evening from people you don't often hearfrom — refugees who have made that horrificjourney across the water from france, asking why they did it, and are they advising others to follow? also we'll hear from experts,

independent experts who absolutely know what the facts and figures are, and from others who have their own views and ideas about how to deal with the challenges of global migration. later we'll speak to the immigration minister robertjenrick and the shadow immigration minister stephen kinnock. thank you to all of you for being with us. first some definitions. a refugee is someone who flees their country due to a conflict or a credible fear of persecution. an asylum seeker is someone who applies for protection as a refugee in another country and they are described as an asylum seeker while their application is being processed. let's begin by hearing from two people who have been granted refugee status here in the uk, having travelled across the channel in a boat. akil alissa is 23. he left war—torn syria when he was 15 and travelled through 11 countries before arriving in the uk, a journey that took six years.

the most frightening and horrific part of thatjourney he says was coming across the channel in a dinghy. kolbassia haoussou, your story is quite different, although with some similarities. you left chad in central africa in 2005, almost 20 years ago. akil, you lived in eastern aleppo but you left with your brother. tell us why? to but you left with your brother. tell uswh ? ., , but you left with your brother. tell uswh? ., ., us why? to escape the war. the conflict, to _ us why? to escape the war. the conflict, to get _ us why? to escape the war. the conflict, to get protection, - us why? to escape the war. the | conflict, to get protection, safety and hope. conflict, to get protection, safety and hoe. �* ., , conflict, to get protection, safety andhoe. ., , , conflict, to get protection, safety andhoe.�* ., , ,~ and hope. and over six years you travelled through, _ and hope. and over six years you travelled through, and _ and hope. and over six years you travelled through, and i'm - and hope. and over six years you travelled through, and i'm going| and hope. and over six years you l travelled through, and i'm going to list the countries, turkey, greece, albania, kosovo, serbia, romania,

hungary, austria, germany, belgium, france and then here. why didn't you stay in belgium or germany or france? ~ . , . france? we have bad experience. movin: france? we have bad experience. moving from _ france? we have bad experience. moving from one _ france? we have bad experience. moving from one country - france? we have bad experience. moving from one country to - france? we have bad experience. i moving from one country to another. so you kept going, hoping for a better experience? bad experience, we don't know. _ better experience? bad experience, we don't know, some _ better experience? bad experience, we don't know, some say _ better experience? bad experience, we don't know, some say that - better experience? bad experience, we don't know, some say that this | we don't know, some say that this country can take asylum seekers. the travellin: country can take asylum seekers. the travelling itself, sometimes walking, sometimes using traffickers.— walking, sometimes using traffickers. , ., , traffickers. sometimes lorry as well. traffickers. sometimes lorry as well- you _ traffickers. sometimes lorry as well. you told _ traffickers. sometimes lorry as well. you told me _ traffickers. sometimes lorry as well. you told me the - traffickers. sometimes lorry as well. you told me the worst. traffickers. sometimes lorry asi well. you told me the worst bit traffickers. sometimes lorry as - well. you told me the worst bit was caettin in well. you told me the worst bit was getting in the _ well. you told me the worst bit was getting in the boat _ well. you told me the worst bit was getting in the boat in _ well. you told me the worst bit was getting in the boat in calais. - well. you told me the worst bit was getting in the boat in calais. what i getting in the boat in calais. what did the traffic promise you? we meet someone in — did the traffic promise you? we meet someone in the _ did the traffic promise you? we meet someone in the calais _ did the traffic promise you? we meet

someone in the calais metro - did the traffic promise you? we meet someone in the calais metro station, | someone in the calais metro station, 2021. someone in the calais metro station, 202i. someone, my friend, is asking how we can go to the uk. he can sail us to the uk by a boat. we said it is not safe, we are scared. he said, don't worry, it is safe, we have professional drivers. professional drivers? yes- _ professional drivers. professional drivers? yes. he _ professional drivers. professional drivers? yes. he said _ professional drivers. professional drivers? yes. he said the - professional drivers. professional drivers? yes. he said the journey drivers? yes. he said the “ourney takes short * drivers? yes. he said the “ourney takes short time, i drivers? yes. he said the “ourney takes short time, don't _ drivers? yes. he said the journey takes short time, don't need - drivers? yes. he said the journey takes short time, don't need to l drivers? yes. he said the journeyl takes short time, don't need to be scared. when we followed the human traffickers, he'd take us to the forest near the beach and he bring the boat, we were scared. i tried to go back, i said i don't want to continue myjourney and he pushed me into the boat and he put all of the people into the boat at once, women

and kids, and he pushed the boat and said, someone drive. he and kids, and he pushed the boat and said, someone drive.— said, someone drive. he said, someone _ said, someone drive. he said, someone drive? _ said, someone drive. he said, someone drive? he _ said, someone drive. he said, someone drive? he said - said, someone drive. he said, - someone drive? he said someone drive and save your — someone drive? he said someone drive and save your life- _ someone drive? he said someone drive and save your life. wow, _ someone drive? he said someone drive and save your life. wow, what - someone drive? he said someone drive and save your life. wow, what was - and save your life. wow, what was the journey _ and save your life. wow, what was the journey like? _ and save your life. wow, what was the journey like? we _ and save your life. wow, what was the journey like? we were - and save your life. wow, what was the journey like? we were very - the journey like? we were very scared because _ the journey like? we were very scared because we _ the journey like? we were very scared because we saw the - the journey like? we were very | scared because we saw the high the journey like? we were very - scared because we saw the high waves and the journey took more than ten hours, 11 or 12 hours. he didn't give anything... ihla hours, 11 or12 hours. he didn't give anything- - -_ hours, 11 or12 hours. he didn't give anything... no life “ackets? yeah. i mean, i give anything... no life “ackets? yeah. i mean, you _ give anything... no life jackets? yeah. i mean, you made - give anything. .. no life jackets? yeah. i mean, you made it- give anything... no life jackets? yeah. i mean, you made it but. give anything... no life jackets? - yeah. i mean, you made it but when --eole yeah. i mean, you made it but when people and — yeah. i mean, you made it but when people and say. _ yeah. i mean, you made it but when people and say, shall— yeah. i mean, you made it but when people and say, shall we _ yeah. i mean, you made it but when people and say, shall we make - yeah. i mean, you made it but when people and say, shall we make the l people and say, shall we make the journey from syria, what do you tell them? �* ., , ., , ., them? don't need to use any human traffickers. — them? don't need to use any human

traffickers, don't _ them? don't need to use any human traffickers, don't take _ them? don't need to use any human traffickers, don't take a _ them? don't need to use any human traffickers, don't take a risk. - traffickers, don't take a risk. don't risk it?— traffickers, don't take a risk. don't risk it? , ., ., �* , don't risk it? yes, and don't put our life don't risk it? yes, and don't put your life in _ don't risk it? yes, and don't put your life in danger. _ don't risk it? yes, and don't put your life in danger. sure. - your life in danger. sure. kolbassia, _ your life in danger. sure. kolbassia, you _ your life in danger. sure. kolbassia, you also - your life in danger. sure. | kolbassia, you also made your life in danger. sure. - kolbassia, you also made the final journey across the channel, leaving chad in 2005. why?— chad in 2005. why? yeah, i fled torture. chad in 2005. why? yeah, i fled torture- i— chad in 2005. why? yeah, i fled torture. i was _ chad in 2005. why? yeah, i fled torture. i was tortured _ chad in 2005. why? yeah, i fled torture. i was tortured and - torture. i was tortured and persecuted, so it helped to save my life. ~ ., , persecuted, so it helped to save my life. . . , , ., persecuted, so it helped to save my life. ~ . , , ., ., life. was the uk your final destination? _ life. was the uk your final destination? i _ life. was the uk your final destination? i don't - life. was the uk your final destination? i don't think| life. was the uk your final i destination? i don't think so, life. was the uk your final - destination? i don't think so, i didn't start — destination? i don't think so, i didn't start my _ destination? i don't think so, i didn't start my journey - destination? i don't think so, i didn't start my journey saying | destination? i don't think so, i | didn't start my journey saying i destination? i don't think so, i - didn't start my journey saying i was didn't start myjourney saying i was going _ didn't start myjourney saying i was going to _ didn't start myjourney saying i was going to the uk. the most important thin- going to the uk. the most important thing for— going to the uk. the most important thing for me and for people seeking freedom _ thing for me and for people seeking freedom from torture, we just want to go— freedom from torture, we just want to go somewhere where we can feel safe _ to go somewhere where we can feel safe i_ to go somewhere where we can feel safe i want — to go somewhere where we can feel safe. i want to put countries between _ safe. i want to put countries between the torture country and why i am between the torture country and why i am living _ between the torture country and why i am living. originally i went to

the netherlands and then i went more and more _ the netherlands and then i went more and more far. the element that helped — and more far. the element that helped me make the decision was the fear for— helped me make the decision was the fear for my— helped me make the decision was the fear for my life and also that i want — fear for my life and also that i want to— fear for my life and also that i want to do everything to save that life and _ want to do everything to save that life and the other thing is they hope — life and the other thing is they hope to— life and the other thing is they hope to have a life. but life and the other thing is they hope to have a life.— life and the other thing is they hope to have a life. but chad is a former french _ hope to have a life. but chad is a former french colony. _ hope to have a life. but chad is a former french colony. you - hope to have a life. but chad is a former french colony. you speakj former french colony. you speak french? ., former french colony. you speak french?- why _ former french colony. you speak french?- why didn't - former french colony. you speak french?- why didn't you i former french colony. you speak french? yeah. why didn't you stay in france? if french? yeah. why didn't you stay in france? if i — french? yeah. why didn't you stay in france? if i have _ french? yeah. why didn't you stay in france? if i have to _ french? yeah. why didn't you stay in france? if i have to choose, - french? yeah. why didn't you stay in france? ifi have to choose, i - france? ifi have to choose, i wouldn't _ france? ifi have to choose, i wouldn't come _ france? ifi have to choose, i wouldn't come to _ france? ifi have to choose, i wouldn't come to europe. - france? ifi have to choose, i - wouldn't come to europe. europe wasn't _ wouldn't come to europe. europe wasn't in — wouldn't come to europe. europe wasn't in my thinking. also with what _ wasn't in my thinking. also with what happened between france and chad, _ what happened between france and chad. i_ what happened between france and chad, i don't think france... if i had _ chad, i don't think france... if i had chosen— chad, i don't think france... if i had chosen i_ chad, i don't think france... if i had chosen i would have stopped may

be in had chosen i would have stopped may he in libya _ had chosen i would have stopped may be in libya. that is close to chad. but you _ be in libya. that is close to chad. but you kept going. let me ask you, kolbassia, how have you been received in the uk over the last 20 years? received in the uk over the last 20 ears? . .. received in the uk over the last 20 ears? . ~' , ., received in the uk over the last 20 ears? ., ,, i. ., ., received in the uk over the last 20 ears? . ~' i., ., . . years? thank you for asking that cuestion. years? thank you for asking that question. that's _ years? thank you for asking that question. that's an _ years? thank you for asking that question. that's an element, - years? thank you for asking that i question. that's an element, when years? thank you for asking that - question. that's an element, when we are debating _ question. that's an element, when we are debating this, that we don't understand. let me say this, because for me _ understand. let me say this, because for me it _ understand. let me say this, because for me it is _ understand. let me say this, because for me it is really important. i was receivingm — for me it is really important. i was receiving... from the queen and i said i_ receiving... from the queen and i said i very— receiving... from the queen and i said i very grateful to be standing in front of— said i very grateful to be standing in front of you after my experience and she _ in front of you after my experience and she said to me, you shouldn't be grateful— and she said to me, you shouldn't be grateful because that's what we have as a nation, — grateful because that's what we have as a nation, as people. we always want _ as a nation, as people. we always want to— as a nation, as people. we always want to help people who need help

and you _ want to help people who need help and you are now part of this society, _ and you are now part of this society, you are contributing to the society— society, you are contributing to the society and — society, you are contributing to the society and we should thank you for being _ society and we should thank you for being positive. we society and we should thank you for being positive-— society and we should thank you for being positive. we are going to come back to that — being positive. we are going to come back to that but _ being positive. we are going to come back to that but thank _ being positive. we are going to come back to that but thank you _ being positive. we are going to come back to that but thank you for - back to that but thank you for telling us the story of you meeting the queen. i appreciate that but we'll hear more from you later. so, the stories ofjust two people who sought asylum here in the uk and were granted refugee status. 75% of applications for refugee status are approved in the uk, that's a grant rate three times higher than in france, by the way. with more comparisons between the uk and other european countries, here's ben with facts and context. how much of an asylum challenge does the uk have relative to other countries? we know what the headlines suggest but what do the actual numbers show? the volume of claims is certainly up very sharply. new claims are running at their highest since the turn of the millennium, around 80,000 a year. and, of course, some 16,000 people crossed the channel on small boats in 2022. and more than 23,000 have crossed

this year so far. the vast majority of those who cross the channel in this way go on to claim asylum, so feed into those headline application numbers. but asylum claims are also up sharply in other european countries too. in absolute numbers the 89,000 applications in the uk in 2022 was lower than in austria, spain, france and germany. for the entire continent, asylum claims were the highest since 2016, when we saw that wave of refugees during the syrian civil war, with experts pointing to global factors such as conflict and oppression as the main drivers now. the bottom line is that there's nothing unique about what's facing the uk in terms of asylum claims. indeed, adjust for population size and we were actually below the european average in terms of claims per 100,000 people in 2022. by this measure, it's cyprus and austria which are dealing with the biggest challenge. what does rather mark out the uk is the state's tardiness

in processing asylum claims. the average wait time for an initial decision in 2021 was 20 months, more than double that of germany, the netherlands and sweden, although slightly less than ireland. and that slowness contributes to what is still a large backlog of unprocessed claims still 134,000 injune, relating to some 170,000 people and remember all those claimants awaiting an initial decision have to be housed at public expense, £8 million per day in hotel costs. and what of asylum grant rates when decisions are finally made? the uk rate, shown in blue, has risen higher than the eu average, shown in yellow. in 2019 it was around 55% versus 45%. and more recent data suggests it's now three times higher than in france. although it's also important to bear in mind that a home office document from 2020 states that "evidence does not suggest that grant rate has a significant impact on an asylum seeker�*s choice of destination". thank you, ben.

peter walsh is senior researcher from the independent oxford migration observatory. how has the uk got to this position? in terms of the backlog, the home office is making fewer decisions and the question is, why? it's a good question because five or six years ago the uk processed the majority of asylum claims within six months and now the average is over 20 months. there's no simple or single explanation for it but i think there are some plausible factors. the first is that we used to have a fast track scheme for processing schemes quickly, typically those the government thought had a low chance of success. under that scheme claims were processed in weeks rather than years. covid has had a role but that is subsiding now. another is that the home office used to have an internal target to process the vast majority of claims within six months, which was quietly dropped in 2019, so in effect these home office

decision—makers are not working to an internal benchmark and it is thought that delays things. finally, and this has been revealed by the immigration inspector, there are challenges within the administration, especially low morale and high staff turnover. that's a big problem because it is thought it takes anywhere between a year and a year and a half for a decision—maker to gain competence, to make accurate and quick decisions and large numbers are leaving before they accrue that experience. mikejones, executive director of migration watch uk, an organistion that wants to reduce migration to the uk. there are serious problems with this, _ there are serious problems with this, the cost of this is £8 million a year~ _ this, the cost of this is £8 million a ear. . �* . this, the cost of this is £8 million a ear. ., ., this, the cost of this is £8 million a ear. . �*, ., ., a year. that's accommodating asylum seekers? accommodating _

a year. that's accommodating asylum seekers? accommodating them - a year. that's accommodating asylum seekers? accommodating them in - a year. that's accommodating asylum | seekers? accommodating them in the uk. it is u- seekers? accommodating them in the uk- it is up 100% _ seekers? accommodating them in the uk. it is up 10094. in _ seekers? accommodating them in the uk. it is up 100% in a _ seekers? accommodating them in the uk. it is up 100% in a year. _ uk. it is up 100% in a year. productivity _ uk. it is up 100% in a year. productivity issues - uk. it is up 100% in a year. productivity issues within i uk. it is up 100% in a year. i productivity issues within the uk. it is up 100% in a year. - productivity issues within the home office, _ productivity issues within the home office, i_ productivity issues within the home office, i definitely believe that has played a part, issues in terms of capacity. — has played a part, issues in terms of capacity, low morale and high turnover~ — of capacity, low morale and high turnover. ~ ., of capacity, low morale and high turnover. . ., , , , , of capacity, low morale and high turnover. ., , , , ., turnover. who is responsible for that? it turnover. who is responsible for that? it has _ turnover. who is responsible for that? it has been _ turnover. who is responsible for that? it has been a _ turnover. who is responsible for that? it has been a neglected i that? it has been a neglected roblem that? it has been a neglected problem and _ that? it has been a neglected problem and as _ that? it has been a neglected problem and as the _ that? it has been a neglected problem and as the backlog l that? it has been a neglected i problem and as the backlog has increased, the problem has... who is responsible? — increased, the problem has... who is responsible? successive _ increased, the problem has... who is. responsible? successive governments. there's a difference _ responsible? successive governments. there's a difference between _ there's a difference between rhetoric _ there's a difference between rhetoric and reality. politicians will talk— rhetoric and reality. politicians will talk tough but in terms of policy— will talk tough but in terms of policy outcomes they deliver they are often — policy outcomes they deliver they are often more liberal than what the british— are often more liberal than what the british public wants. there are other— british public wants. there are other reasons, it is difficult to deport — other reasons, it is difficult to deport people because of the legal architecture that has built up in this country and there is a large legal— this country and there is a large legal asylum industry that does intervene in the deportation process _

intervene in the deportation process. is intervene in the deportation rocess. . ~ ~' intervene in the deportation rocess. , , intervene in the deportation rocess. . , process. is mike jones right? these statistics show _ process. is mike jones right? these statistics show there _ process. is mike jones right? these statistics show there is _ process. is mike jones right? these statistics show there is a _ process. is mike jones right? these statistics show there is a slowdown | statistics show there is a slowdown in decision—making. ultimately, some people cannot be removed for legal reasons, it is entirely right, but that does not need to see the reason the backlog excesses because of the lack of removals. the reason the backlog excesses because not enough decisions are being taken and we have had the recent peta has just outlined. the solution must lie in the home office and administration of taking effective and quick decisions. they can be taken, we know that the grand rate is 75%, but it should make —— should not take one or two years to get to that point. faster decision—making, identifying that are common strands of person who are granted refugee status in terms of country, background, profile, those claims can be processed more quickly but they are not. can be processed more quickly but they are not-— can be processed more quickly but they are not. from the public point of view, they are not. from the public point of view. how _ they are not. from the public point of view, how important _ they are not. from the public point of view, how important is - they are not. from the public point of view, how important is this - of view, how important is this issue? it of view, how important is this issue? . of view, how important is this issue? , ., ., ,

of view, how important is this issue? , ., ,, issue? it is not the top issue the ublic issue? it is not the top issue the public are _ issue? it is not the top issue the public are worried _ issue? it is not the top issue the public are worried about - issue? it is not the top issue the public are worried about at - issue? it is not the top issue the public are worried about at the l public are worried about at the minute — public are worried about at the minute they— public are worried about at the minute. they are _ public are worried about at the minute. they are still- public are worried about at the minute. they are still more . public are worried about at the - minute. they are still more worried about their— minute. they are still more worried about their own personal _ about their own personal finances and also — about their own personal finances and also the — about their own personal finances and also the overall— about their own personal finances and also the overall economic - and also the overall economic condition— and also the overall economic condition in— and also the overall economic condition in the _ and also the overall economic condition in the country. - and also the overall economic condition in the country. but. and also the overall economic i condition in the country. butjust beneath— condition in the country. butjust beneath the _ condition in the country. butjust beneath the surface _ condition in the country. butjust beneath the surface of— condition in the country. butjust beneath the surface of that, - condition in the country. butjust| beneath the surface of that, they are concerned _ beneath the surface of that, they are concerned about _ beneath the surface of that, theyl are concerned about immigration. beneath the surface of that, they. are concerned about immigration. it is now— are concerned about immigration. it is now a _ are concerned about immigration. it is now a top— are concerned about immigration. it is now a top five _ are concerned about immigration. it is now a top five issue _ are concerned about immigration. it is now a top five issue in _ are concerned about immigration. it is now a top five issue in the - are concerned about immigration. it is now a top five issue in the uk. . is now a top five issue in the uk. this— is now a top five issue in the uk. this time — is now a top five issue in the uk. this time last _ is now a top five issue in the uk. this time last year _ is now a top five issue in the uk. this time last year it _ is now a top five issue in the uk. this time last year it was - this time last year it was number eight _ this time last year it was number eiaht. ~ . this time last year it was number eiaht. . ., ., this time last year it was number eiaht.~ ., ., , this time last year it was number eiaht.~ ., ., i- this time last year it was number eiaht. ., ., i- eight. what do they say about the wa the eight. what do they say about the way they think — eight. what do they say about the way they think the _ eight. what do they say about the way they think the government i eight. what do they say about the way they think the government is| way they think the government is handling it? the way they think the government is handling it?— way they think the government is handlin: it? ., ., , ., , handling it? the ma'ority of people are dissatisfied — handling it? the majority of people are dissatisfied with _ handling it? the majority of people are dissatisfied with the _ handling it? the majority of people are dissatisfied with the way - handling it? the majority of people are dissatisfied with the way the i are dissatisfied with the way the government— are dissatisfied with the way the government are _ are dissatisfied with the way the government are handling - are dissatisfied with the way the - government are handling immigration broadly _ government are handling immigration broadly. beneath _ government are handling immigration broadly. beneath the _ government are handling immigration broadly. beneath the surface, - government are handling immigration broadly. beneath the surface, you i broadly. beneath the surface, you can see _ broadly. beneath the surface, you can see what _ broadly. beneath the surface, you can see what is _ broadly. beneath the surface, you can see what is at _ broadly. beneath the surface, you can see what is at play _ broadly. beneath the surface, you can see what is at play there, i broadly. beneath the surface, you can see what is at play there, it i broadly. beneath the surface, you can see what is at play there, it isj can see what is at play there, it is issues _ can see what is at play there, it is issues around _ can see what is at play there, it is issues around controlling - can see what is at play there, it is issues around controlling the i issues around controlling the migrant— issues around controlling the migrant crossings. _ issues around controlling the migrant crossings. if - issues around controlling the migrant crossings. if you're i issues around controlling the j migrant crossings. if you're a conservative _ migrant crossings. if you're a conservative voter— migrant crossings. if you're a conservative voter from - migrant crossings. if you're al conservative voter from 2019, migrant crossings. if you're a - conservative voter from 2019, you're also worried — conservative voter from 2019, you're also worried about _ conservative voter from 2019, you're also worried about the _ conservative voter from 2019, you're also worried about the lack - conservative voter from 2019, you're also worried about the lack of - also worried about the lack of reduction _ also worried about the lack of reduction in _ also worried about the lack of reduction in the _ also worried about the lack of reduction in the number- also worried about the lack of reduction in the number of i also worried about the lack of i reduction in the number of asylum seekers _ reduction in the number of asylum seekers if— reduction in the number of asylum seekers. if you're _ reduction in the number of asylum seekers. if you're a _ reduction in the number of asylum seekers. if you're a labour- seekers. if you're a labour supporter. _ seekers. if you're a labour supporter, you're - seekers. if you're a labour supporter, you're also i seekers. if you're a labour- supporter, you're also worried about migrant— supporter, you're also worried about migrant crossings. _ supporter, you're also worried about migrant crossings, but _ supporter, you're also worried about migrant crossings, but you're - migrant crossings, but you're worried — migrant crossings, but you're worried also _ migrant crossings, but you're worried also about _ migrant crossings, but you're worried also about how- migrant crossings, but you're worried also about how those individuals _ worried also about how those individuals are _ worried also about how those individuals are being - worried also about how those individuals are being treated i worried also about how those . individuals are being treated by worried also about how those - individuals are being treated by the policies _ individuals are being treated by the olicies. ~ . individuals are being treated by the olicies. . ., ., , individuals are being treated by the olicies. . . ., , .. individuals are being treated by the olicies. . ., ., , ,, ., policies. what do they think of the rwanda plan. _ policies. what do they think of the rwanda plan, which _ policies. what do they think of the rwanda plan, which of _ policies. what do they think of the rwanda plan, which of course i policies. what do they think of the rwanda plan, which of course we | policies. what do they think of the i rwanda plan, which of course we are waiting for the supreme court to decide next month whether it is legal or not, whether it can go ahead, whether anybody can be deported? brute

ahead, whether anybody can be de orted? ~ . ahead, whether anybody can be deorted? . . ., ahead, whether anybody can be deported?— ahead, whether anybody can be deorted? . . ., ., ., deported? we have about one in two --eole who deported? we have about one in two people who would — deported? we have about one in two people who would say _ deported? we have about one in two people who would say they _ deported? we have about one in two people who would say they are i people who would say they are supportive _ people who would say they are supportive of— people who would say they are supportive of that _ people who would say they are supportive of that policy. i people who would say they are supportive of that policy. the i supportive of that policy. the public — supportive of that policy. the public are _ supportive of that policy. the public are actually _ supportive of that policy. the public are actually more i supportive of that policy. the public are actually more in i supportive of that policy. the i public are actually more in support than not _ public are actually more in support than not in — public are actually more in support than not in support, _ public are actually more in support than not in support, it _ public are actually more in support than not in support, it is _ public are actually more in support than not in support, it is three i public are actually more in support than not in support, it is three in. than not in support, it is three in ten who— than not in support, it is three in ten who say— than not in support, it is three in ten who say they _ than not in support, it is three in ten who say they would - than not in support, it is three in ten who say they would not i than not in support, it is three in. ten who say they would not support it. just _ ten who say they would not support it. just because _ ten who say they would not support it. just because they _ ten who say they would not support it. just because they say _ ten who say they would not support it. just because they say they- it. just because they say they support— it. just because they say they surmort it _ it. just because they say they support it does _ it. just because they say they support it does not _ it. just because they say they support it does not mean - it. just because they say theyi support it does not mean they it. just because they say they- support it does not mean they think it is a _ support it does not mean they think it is a panacea — support it does not mean they think it is a panacea to— support it does not mean they think it is a panacea to improving - support it does not mean they think it is a panacea to improving value i it is a panacea to improving value for money— it is a panacea to improving value for money or— it is a panacea to improving value for money or some _ it is a panacea to improving value for money or some of _ it is a panacea to improving value for money or some of the - it is a panacea to improving value for money or some of the other. for money or some of the other challenges _ for money or some of the other challenges i_ for money or some of the other challenges. i think— for money or some of the other challenges. i think the - for money or some of the other challenges. i think the public i for money or some of the other. challenges. i think the public are still quite — challenges. i think the public are still quite cynical— challenges. i think the public are still quite cynical about - challenges. i think the public are still quite cynical about what - challenges. i think the public are| still quite cynical about what that will do _ still quite cynical about what that will do for— still quite cynical about what that will do for reducing _ still quite cynical about what that will do for reducing numbers. - still quite cynical about what that i will do for reducing numbers. ificki will do for reducing numbers. vicki tennant, welcome, _ will do for reducing numbers. tennant, welcome, around half a million refugees are settled in the uk since 2015. a population of 67 million. the uk, as ben was pointing out, has a tiny proportion of the world's refugees. claims are up year, but they are up more in other european countries. should there be an eu wide plan to deal with this? i think that is certainly what the european commission would like to achieve. 0f

european commission would like to achieve. of course, that is a big effort that is ongoing among eu member states at the moment to try to reach agreement. what we see is that states that, if you like, a kind of on the front line, receiving people coming across the mediterranean on boats, coming through the western balkans, they feel they are being left to cope with what has become a very challenging problem. ithink with what has become a very challenging problem. i think that is certainly a big effort on the part of the eu. certainly from the unhcr perspective, that regional cooperation, international cooperation, international cooperation is key to managing what is essentially a global challenge. people moving across borders. i do want to say one thing, victoria, which is really that it is important to remember that the epicentre of displacement crises is very much in the developing world. it is not in europe, it is not in the americas, it is in the regions where these

crises are happening. two thirds of forcibly displaced people stay within their own country, they do not even cross borders. those who do cross borders typically stay in countries neighbouring their own, about seven in ten stay there. and those who elect to move on words often do so because they are simply faced with impossible choices. we have heard today about what that looks like and what that feels. people have very difficult decisions to make and it is important to recognise that. we to make and it is important to recognise that.— to make and it is important to recognise that. we will talk more in a moment — recognise that. we will talk more in a moment we _ recognise that. we will talk more in a moment. we will _ recognise that. we will talk more in a moment. we will talk _ recognise that. we will talk more in a moment. we will talk to - recognise that. we will talk more in a moment. we will talk to stephen | a moment. we will talk to stephen jen rick and —— stephen kinnock and robertjenrick any minute. the prime ministers promised to stop the boats, they are down around 20% this year. the cost of accommodating asylum seekers in hotels has gone up

to £8 million a day. labour say they would overturn the rwanda plan and set up a brand—new police unit dedicating to breaking up the smugglers' business model, freezing the assets, negotiating a bespoke return agreement with the eu to send people back to safe countries. here is ben with other possible solutions. what are the potential solutions to the challenge around small boats? we're familiar with the government's rwanda plan deporting those who enter the country illegally to claim asylum to the east african state or another safe third country. advocates argue that this would create a powerful deterrent for people coming in small boats. but the legality of the scheme is in question. and even if it did clear the legal hurdles, it's worth bearing in mind that the home office has itself estimated the cost of relocating each individual under this scheme would be around £169,000 and it has conceded it's "uncertain" how much of a deterrent effect it would have in any case. let's also discuss returns agreements either between the uk and individual countries or with the eu. the labour party is proposing this, along with creating a returns unit to accelerate the removal of failed

asylum seekers and establishing a new security partnership with europol to tackle the smuggling gangs. the uk left the eu's dublin system at the end of 2020 as part of brexit, thus ending our ability to return asylum seekers to the eu countries in which they first entered the bloc. some argue the lack of a returns policy does encourage those strongly motivated to come to the uk to attempt a small boat crossing. yet it's worth bearing in mind that returns agreements work both ways. in the latter years of the uk's membership of the dublin system, transfers of asylum seekers into the uk — the pink line — were higher than transfers out — the blue line — and there are, in any case, doubts about how willing eu countries would be to strike a new returns agreement with the uk. what about more safe routes? could action here discourage people from risking their lives by crossing the channel in a small boat? let's start with the safe routes we have today. this shows the number of people coming to the uk via existing

humanitarian routes. the big jump in 2022 — 172,000 — is people arriving via the new ukrainian, hong kong chinese and afghan schemes. now, it's true you don't get ukrainians trying to enter the uk via small boats and perhaps the existence of the scheme is a factor behind that. yet afghans are often on the small boats, despite the afghan scheme. critics will argue that this means the afghan scheme is too narrow. yet the key point is that opening more safe routes doesn't necessarily mean those using them would be the same individuals as are currently making the small boat crossings or that it would automatically make a difference to the overall numbers. let's change tack slightly. would issuing id cards to the overall population help discourage people from trying to come to the uk by making it impossible for them to work in our black economy? this is an argument that has been mooted by some labour politicians in the past. and french politicians also often argue that the uk jobs market is a pull factor for irregular migrants. yet experts argue that there's not

actually much evidence to support the theory. so, all these policy proposals may have their pros or their cons. yet the truth is that it's hard to see any one of them in itself as a simple or comprehensive solution to small boat crossings. kevin saunders, a former chief immigration officer, you know what works and what doesn't. tell us. rwanda is the thing that we are hoping is going to happen because that will stop people coming across the channel. that will stop people coming across the channel-— the channel. how do you know? because l _ the channel. how do you know? because i been _ the channel. how do you know? because i been in _ the channel. how do you know? because i been in france - the channel. how do you know? because i been in france and i. the channel. how do you know? - because i been in france and i have talked to people. wide of the home office does not have any published evidence about the deterrent effect. people will not pay 5000 euros to spend a very short time in the uk. it is not going to happen. it spend a very short time in the uk. it is not going to happen.- it is not going to happen. if you had come _ it is not going to happen. if you had come in — it is not going to happen. if you had come in a _ it is not going to happen. if you had come in a boat _ it is not going to happen. if you had come in a boat now- it is not going to happen. if you had come in a boat now as -

it is not going to happen. if you - had come in a boat now as opposed it is not going to happen. if you had come in a boat now as opposed to 20 years ago, you would face the prospect of being deported to rwanda. if you had known that when you got to france, would it have kept you in france? son are absolutely not. it would not deter me. why? we absolutely not. it would not deter me. wh ? ~ ., ., me. why? we tend to go with something — me. why? we tend to go with something like _ me. why? we tend to go with something like this. _ me. why? we tend to go with something like this. i- me. why? we tend to go with something like this. i believe | me. why? we tend to go with - something like this. i believe that my case _ something like this. i believe that nty case is— something like this. i believe that my case is different and my case will have — my case is different and my case will have a — my case is different and my case will have a higher success. if you had arrived _ will have a higher success. if you had arrived in _ will have a higher success. if you had arrived in a _ will have a higher success. if you had arrived in a boat, _ will have a higher success. if you had arrived in a boat, you - will have a higher success. if you had arrived in a boat, you are - had arrived in a boat, you are deemed to be illegal, and under new laws here, you would not be able to claim asylum in this country, you would be processed in rwanda. i would be processed in rwanda. i understand that. are _ would be processed in rwanda. i understand that. are you - would be processed in rwanda. i understand that. are you saying | would be processed in rwanda. i - understand that. are you saying that would not have _ understand that. are you saying that would not have deterred _ understand that. are you saying that would not have deterred you? - understand that. are you saying that i would not have deterred you? know. and also what _ would not have deterred you? know. and also what we _ would not have deterred you? know. and also what we are _ would not have deterred you? know. and also what we are creating - would not have deterred you? know. and also what we are creating by - and also what we are creating by that is _ and also what we are creating by that is that when people come, they io that is that when people come, they go underground. then they are used for modern — go underground. then they are used for modern slavery. it is not a solution _ for modern slavery. it is not a solution-— for modern slavery. it is not a solution. ., ., , ., , solution. kevin, how do you respond? it is a

solution. kevin, how do you respond? it is a view- — solution. kevin, how do you respond? it is a view- lt — solution. kevin, how do you respond? it is a view. it is _ solution. kevin, how do you respond? it is a view. it is a _ solution. kevin, how do you respond? it is a view. it is a view. _ solution. kevin, how do you respond? it is a view. it is a view. i _ solution. kevin, how do you respond? it is a view. it is a view. i can - it is a view. it is a view. i can only talk about people i have spoken to. they will not pay the money to risk not being in the uk. i mean, rwanda isn't the be all and end all, but it is another deterrent that we need to be able to use. do but it is another deterrent that we need to be able to use.— but it is another deterrent that we need to be able to use. do you think it would work. _ need to be able to use. do you think it would work, mike _ need to be able to use. do you think it would work, mike jones? - need to be able to use. do you think it would work, mike jones? what? l it would work, mikejones? what? provided that sufficient people are removed — provided that sufficient people are removed that— provided that sufficient people are removed. that is— provided that sufficient people are removed. that is the _ provided that sufficient people are removed. that is the key. - provided that sufficient people are removed. that is the key. it - provided that sufficient people are removed. that is the key. it is - removed. that is the key. it is based — removed. that is the key. it is based on _ removed. that is the key. it is based on a _ removed. that is the key. it is based on a similar— removed. that is the key. it is based on a similar scheme - removed. that is the key. it is| based on a similar scheme that removed. that is the key. it is - based on a similar scheme that the australians — based on a similar scheme that the australians had _ based on a similar scheme that the australians had with _ based on a similar scheme that the australians had with papua - based on a similar scheme that the australians had with papua new. australians had with papua new guinea — australians had with papua new guinea the _ australians had with papua new guinea. the numbers— australians had with papua new guinea. the numbers went - australians had with papua new| guinea. the numbers went from australians had with papua new- guinea. the numbers went from tens of thousands— guinea. the numbers went from tens of thousands to — guinea. the numbers went from tens of thousands to zero _ guinea. the numbers went from tens of thousands to zero within _ guinea. the numbers went from tens of thousands to zero within a - guinea. the numbers went from tens of thousands to zero within a few - of thousands to zero within a few years _ of thousands to zero within a few years that— of thousands to zero within a few years that is— of thousands to zero within a few years. that is a _ of thousands to zero within a few years. that is a real—world - of thousands to zero within a few - years. that is a real—world example. totally _ years. that is a real—world example. totally different _ years. that is a real—world example. totally different environment, - totally different environment, totally different seas, not your very many wars, what do you say? australia is quite a different situation. we know people were processed in papua new guinea, are

not allowed to leave the island. the concept of a safe third country proposal, which is at the heart of the government's policy, requires to be a safe third country that can be identified. we have not got one things stand. the example is that people do not make decisions based on those kind of analytical factors. but they might if the rwanda plains start taking off. that is what we do not know. peter walsh, what is your view? i not know. peter walsh, what is your view? ~' ., , view? i think it would depend fundamentally _ view? i think it would depend fundamentally on _ view? i think it would depend fundamentally on what - view? i think it would depend fundamentally on what share | view? i think it would depend l fundamentally on what share of view? i think it would depend - fundamentally on what share of those entering _ fundamentally on what share of those entering without authorisation would be removed to rwanda. at the moment, we know— be removed to rwanda. at the moment, we know the _ be removed to rwanda. at the moment, we know the capacity is fairly small. — we know the capacity is fairly small. a _ we know the capacity is fairly small, a single plane has not been sent yet~ _ small, a single plane has not been sent yet. but there are questions about— sent yet. but there are questions about whether the capacity could be increased _ about whether the capacity could be increased substantially, she may not have, _ increased substantially, she may not have, initially at least, the deterrent impact the government is hoping _ deterrent impact the government is hoping. then we would need to send i

think many— hoping. then we would need to send i think many thousands of people who continue _ think many thousands of people who continue to— think many thousands of people who continue to come. the think many thousands of people who continue to come.— think many thousands of people who continue to come. the home secretary has said there — continue to come. the home secretary has said there are _ continue to come. the home secretary has said there are no _ continue to come. the home secretary has said there are no limits _ continue to come. the home secretary has said there are no limits to - continue to come. the home secretary has said there are no limits to the - has said there are no limits to the rwanda scheme. do you buy that? it rwanda scheme. do you buy that? it will depend very much on what rwanda can do _ will depend very much on what rwanda can do. just _ will depend very much on what rwanda can do. just to return to the australian— can do. just to return to the australian case stop australia has not offshore short anyone to papua new guinea since 2014. yet there are regular— new guinea since 2014. yet there are regular boat — new guinea since 2014. yet there are regular boat arrivals have remained low. regular boat arrivals have remained low that _ regular boat arrivals have remained low that is — regular boat arrivals have remained low. that is probably because they do something which we are not yet able to— do something which we are not yet able to do— do something which we are not yet able to do and we do not do. they conducted — able to do and we do not do. they conducted physical interception of boats— conducted physical interception of boats at— conducted physical interception of boats at sea and they return them to their countries of departure with their countries of departure with the permission of those countries. kevin, _ the permission of those countries. kevin, the — the permission of those countries. kevin, the uk cannot do that. priti patel, when she was home secretary, there were reports of using jet skis or the royal navy to push boats back into french waters. it is or the royal navy to push boats back into french waters.— into french waters. it is not possible- — into french waters. it is not possible- it _ into french waters. it is not possible. it is _ into french waters. it is not possible. it is too _ into french waters. it is not i possible. it is too dangerous. into french waters. it is not - possible. it is too dangerous. the channel is a very godly bit of

water. you cannot effectively push people back in the channel. it would not work. let people back in the channel. it would not work. ., , ~ people back in the channel. it would not work. ., , ., ., not work. let me ask you about labour's proposals. _ not work. let me ask you about labour's proposals. and - not work. let me ask you about labour's proposals. and we - not work. let me ask you about labour's proposals. and we will not work. let me ask you about - labour's proposals. and we will talk to the shadow immigration minister any moment. labour is saying they will treat, they will smash the criminal gangs, treat those gang leaders like terrorists, seize their assets, whether or not they have got registered bank accounts, i don't know, increase the number of caseworkers to make decisions in the home office, and overturn the rwanda plan. home office, and overturn the rwanda ian. ~ �* . home office, and overturn the rwanda ian, . �* , ., ~' home office, and overturn the rwanda lanr �*, home office, and overturn the rwanda plan. well, let's take those one at a time. briefly. _ plan. well, let's take those one at a time. briefly. the _ plan. well, let's take those one at a time. briefly. the gangs - plan. well, let's take those one at a time. briefly. the gangs are - plan. well, let's take those one at a time. briefly. the gangs are like j a time. briefly. the gangs are like a time. briefly. the gangs are like a h dra, a time. briefly. the gangs are like a hydra. cut _ a time. briefly. the gangs are like a hydra. cut off — a time. briefly. the gangs are like a hydra, cut off one _ a time. briefly. the gangs are like a hydra, cut off one head - a time. briefly. the gangs are like a hydra, cut off one head and - a hydra, cut off one head and another two happier. that will not happen. there have been over 300 prosecutions —— and another to appear. prosecutions by police forces in the last year. there is a lot going on with this. the idea of a special police force, well, under

british law, we cannot have uk policemen working in europe. if we want to work in europe, we have to work with the authority of the local police force in that area. there is a massive paper work to go through. i will come back to you because we are now going to talk to the shadow immigration minister will stop ina stop in a few minutes we will speak to the immigration minister. stephen kinnock, thank you for your patience and for listening to everyone. good evening. could i begin with a yes or no question? do you want to bring the numbers of legal and illegal migrants down? yes, we expect both to come down and we want to do that any balanced way, particularly on the economic migration site based on maximising opportunities for local people to work in the uk rather than constantly reaching for immigration is a solution. clearly on the asylum site we want to stop these dangerous

channel crossings. nobody could possibly support the idea of people smugglers making millions of pounds out of a trade in human misery. keir starmer says — out of a trade in human misery. keir starmer says she _ out of a trade in human misery. keir starmer says she would like to negotiate a returns agreement with the eu without accepting a quota of asylum seekers coming this way. you want a bespoke agreement. eu diplomats are reported to have said thatis diplomats are reported to have said that is delusional. it does sound like cakeism.— that is delusional. it does sound like cakeism. , ., , ., , like cakeism. nobody wants thousands of --eole like cakeism. nobody wants thousands of people massing _ like cakeism. nobody wants thousands of people massing on _ like cakeism. nobody wants thousands of people massing on the _ like cakeism. nobody wants thousands of people massing on the calais - of people massing on the calais coastline, it isn't good for mr macron and as either. it is clear a beachley beneficial approach is needed. 50 beachley beneficial approach is needed. , �* beachley beneficial approach is needed, , �* , beachley beneficial approach is needed. , , needed. so why hasn't it been easy to come up — needed. so why hasn't it been easy to come up with — needed. so why hasn't it been easy to come up with so _ needed. so why hasn't it been easy to come up with so far? _ needed. so why hasn't it been easy to come up with so far? you - needed. so why hasn't it been easy to come up with so far? you say . needed. so why hasn't it been easy| to come up with so far? you say you want a bespoke agreement. they aren't going to do that. they have so much more strain, countries like

italy and greece, compared to the uk. ., , ., ., italy and greece, compared to the uk. ., ,., ., ., �* italy and greece, compared to the uk. one reason the deal hasn't been done is because _ uk. one reason the deal hasn't been done is because we _ uk. one reason the deal hasn't been done is because we have _ uk. one reason the deal hasn't been done is because we have a _ done is because we have a conservative government who spent the last few years burning every bridge with european partners and allies... , , bridge with european partners and allies... , . ., allies... they came up with an albania deal. _ allies... they came up with an albania deal. liz _ allies... they came up with an albania deal. liz truss - allies... they came up with an albania deal. liz truss said . allies... they came up with an | albania deal. liz truss said she wasn't sure _ albania deal. liz truss said she wasn't sure whether _ albania deal. liz truss said she wasn't sure whether france - albania deal. liz truss said she wasn't sure whether france is l albania deal. liz truss said she j wasn't sure whether france is a friend or a phone. with keir starmer as prime minister it is clear we can build trust and respect —— a friend or a foe. it won't be an easy process, there isn't a magic one in negotiating with the eu. we have said we will be doing this because many of the young children coming across on boats are very vulnerable and easy prey for the people smugglers and that's where we'd start. pm smugglers and that's where we'd start. �* . ., ., smugglers and that's where we'd start. ~ . . ., , ., start. an exchange agreement, bear in mind you'd _ start. an exchange agreement, bear in mind you'd have _ start. an exchange agreement, bear in mind you'd have to _ start. an exchange agreement, bear in mind you'd have to have - start. an exchange agreement, bear in mind you'd have to have people . in mind you'd have to have people coming back here as the quid pro quo, why would the exchange

agreement stop people getting into the boat to cross the channel? meme the boat to cross the channel? we've talked a lot about _ the boat to cross the channel? we've talked a lot about deterrence - the boat to cross the channel? ,, talked a lot about deterrence this evening. the big problem with the rwanda plan is that it isn't a deterrent because they rwanda government said it can only take three or 400 people... 50 government said it can only take three or 400 people. . ._ government said it can only take three or 400 people... so why would a returns agreement _ three or 400 people... so why would a returns agreement work? - three or 400 people... so why would a returns agreement work? you - three or 400 people... so why wouldj a returns agreement work? you need three or 400 people... so why would l a returns agreement work? you need a broad agreement _ a returns agreement work? you need a broad agreement to _ a returns agreement work? you need a broad agreement to be _ a returns agreement work? you need a broad agreement to be able _ a returns agreement work? you need a broad agreement to be able to - a returns agreement work? you need a broad agreement to be able to send i broad agreement to be able to send people back to mainland europe if they have crossed on small boats. that's a subject of negotiation. as keir starmer and yvette cooper have made clear, that will be primarily based on us looking at family reunion in order to have the basis for getting the right negotiation platform in terms of engaging with the eu. ~ , ., platform in terms of engaging with the eu. . , ., ., platform in terms of engaging with theeu. , ., ., , platform in terms of engaging with theeu. , ., ., the eu. why would that stop people caettin into the eu. why would that stop people getting into boats? _ the eu. why would that stop people getting into boats? as _ the eu. why would that stop people getting into boats? as i've - the eu. why would that stop people getting into boats? as i've said, - getting into boats? as i've said, it's a deterrent. _ getting into boats? as i've said, it's a deterrent. where's - getting into boats? as i've said, it's a deterrent. where's the - it's a deterrent. where's the evidence _ it's a deterrent. where's the evidence that _ it's a deterrent. where's the evidence that it's _ it's a deterrent. where's the evidence that it's a - it's a deterrent. where's the l evidence that it's a deterrent? it's a deterrent. where's the - evidence that it's a deterrent? the eu accepting _ evidence that it's a deterrent? tie: eu accepting that people evidence that it's a deterrent? ti9 eu accepting that people have come on small boats and they will be sent back to mainland europe. nobody is going to pay a people smuggler

thousands of euros in the knowledge that when they set foot in the uk they will be sent back so that's the point of the deterrent. it has to be a comprehensive instrument if it's going to work and that's why rwanda won't work. the court of appeal said that the rwanda system can only process a very small number of asylum cases a year, so it isn't going to work as a deterrent. when we had a returns _ going to work as a deterrent. when we had a returns agreement - going to work as a deterrent. when we had a returns agreement when we were in the eu we sent back about 4% of rivals. were in the eu we sent back about 496 of rivals. �* .. . were in the eu we sent back about 496 of rivals. �* .. , ., ~ .,, were in the eu we sent back about 496 of rivals. �* , ., ~ .,, ., of rivals. because it worked as a deterrent- _ of rivals. because it worked as a deterrent. the _ of rivals. because it worked as a deterrent. the number - of rivals. because it worked as a deterrent. the number of - of rivals. because it worked as a l deterrent. the number of arrivals have skyrocketed since we left the dublin convention. do the maths. there's clearly a causal link between those things happening. keir starmer said that you would treat people smugglers like terrorist. what does that mean in practical terms? what would you do too, as he put it, smash the gangs? it terms? what would you do too, as he put it, smash the gangs?— put it, smash the gangs? it was good to see yvette — put it, smash the gangs? it was good to see yvette cooper— put it, smash the gangs? it was good to see yvette cooper and _ put it, smash the gangs? it was good

to see yvette cooper and keir- to see yvette cooper and keir starmer going to europol having constructive meetings. we want a data sharing system, an intelligent system, replicating the shannon system. we want uk police officers posted more into europol than is currently the case and we want to use criminal prevention orders which is used for terrorists, to be able to track them and ensure that they are being cracked down on with the full force of the law. it's about getting the mixture of european cooperation around this issue of cracking down on the gangs because it's a european problem requiring a collective solution and it's about using domestic law much more effectively to treat this as terrorism.— effectively to treat this as terrorism. . ., ., , let's hear now from the immigration minister, robertjenrick. thank you for your patience. i know you were listening to everyone. do you were listening to everyone. do you accept that your government is

forcing taxpayers to pay £8 million a day to accommodate asylum seekers because the system on your watch has to slow down so genetically? tia. because the system on your watch has to slow down so genetically?— to slow down so genetically? no, all euro ean to slow down so genetically? no, all european countries _ to slow down so genetically? no, all european countries are _ to slow down so genetically? no, all european countries are facing - european countries are facing immense pressure because of a global migration crisis. i believe since rishi sunak became part minister and i became immigration minister and suella braverman became home secretary we have developed the most comprehensive plan of any european country and that the results are there to be seen. today the number of migrant crossings are down by 21.5%. in italy, the numbers are up by over 100%. so our plan is working but clearly there is a great deal more to do because the public want us to control our borders and stop the boats altogether. that's why we need to have a proper deterrent and this is the big dividing line i think in politics today on this issue. we don't think you can simply arrest your way out of this problem. we are doing a huge amount of work

in that regard, the national crime agency, the diplomacy we are doing but you've got to put in place a fundamental deterrent that smashes the people smugglers's business model once and for all. the backlog happened on your watch, you've been in power for happened on your watch, you've been in powerfor 13 happened on your watch, you've been in power for 13 years. happened on your watch, you've been in powerfor 13 years. it is happened on your watch, you've been in power for 13 years. it is costing 8 million a day, taxpayers' money, you're responsible. since i became immigration minister we've made great progress. your party. i asked about the record of the conservatives's record since 2010. backlog was less than 20,020 ten. that's not... backlog was less than 20,020 ten. that's not- - -_ that's not... that is true. -- backlog _ that's not... that is true. -- backlog was _ that's not... that is true. -- backlog was less _ that's not... that is true. -- backlog was less than - that's not... that is true. -- i backlog was less than 20,000, that's not... that is true. -- - backlog was less than 20,000, in 2010. there were over 400,000 what were then known as asylum records in the terminology of the time and the system was out of control. the backlog has risen significantly over

the last 13 years. cases that need to be processed, i'm not here to defend that but what we've done over the last nine months, we've made immense progress transforming the system. many of the things your panellists mentioned are happening. we have proper management, performance targets, a streamlined rocess for performance targets, a streamlined process for countries _ performance targets, a streamlined process for countries where - performance targets, a streamlined process for countries where there i performance targets, a streamlinedj process for countries where there is a high grant rate because people are likely to gain asylum such as afghanistan and for those countries where there should rightly be a very low grant waite or no grant rate at all like albania —— a low grant wait. over3000 all like albania —— a low grant wait. over 3000 are being processed a week so you are going to see the commitment the prime minister and i made at the end of last year to get the number down by the end of the year. the number down by the end of the ear. ~ , . y :, the number down by the end of the ear. ~ _, , the number down by the end of the ear. ~ ,~ , ., year. why are you pretending that revious year. why are you pretending that previous conservative _ year. why are you pretending that. previous conservative governments are nothing to do with you? tia. previous conservative governments are nothing to do with you? no, i'm tellin: ou are nothing to do with you? no, i'm telling you my _ are nothing to do with you? no, i'm telling you my own _ are nothing to do with you? no, i'm telling you my own record _ are nothing to do with you? no, i'm telling you my own record and - are nothing to do with you? no, i'm telling you my own record and thatl telling you my own record and that of rishi sunak. we came into sort

out the problem and we are making good progress and that is important to note. trlat good progress and that is important to note. :, ., . . ., good progress and that is important to note. ., ., . . ., ., ., to note. not according to the home affairs select _ to note. not according to the home affairs select committee _ to note. not according to the home affairs select committee this - to note. not according to the home i affairs select committee this summer he said the rise in applications is down to the slow processing of applications. it is having a bigger impact on the backlog than the increase in applications themselves. i don't agree with the second half of that point. i think there's a lot of that point. i think there's a lot of work to be done to make the system more productive and that is what we have now done. at the beginning of the summer we were processing 1000 claims a week and now we are doing 3000 and rising. if we are going to trade figures. there is a lot of work going on. the fundamental question is... the . uestion fundamental question is... the question is... _ fundamental question is... the question is... you _ fundamental question is... the question is... you are - fundamental question is... the question is... you are going i fundamental question is... the question is... you are going to| fundamental question is... the i question is... you are going to stop --eole question is... you are going to stop people coming _ question is... you are going to stop people coming across _ question is... you are going to stop people coming across on _ question is. .. you are going to stop people coming across on small- question is... you are going to stop i people coming across on small boats, i don't think that's right.— i don't think that's right. based on what? i i don't think that's right. based on what? i don't _ i don't think that's right. based on what? i don't think _ i don't think that's right. based on what? i don't think having - i don't think that's right. based on what? i don't think having a i i don't think that's right. based on | what? i don't think having a system where ou what? i don't think having a system where you wave _ what? i don't think having a system where you wave people _ what? i don't think having a system where you wave people into - what? i don't think having a system where you wave people into the i where you wave people into the country is an efficient way to manage your borders. you country is an efficient way to manage your borders. you don't think that or ou

manage your borders. you don't think that or you have _ manage your borders. you don't think that or you have evidence _ manage your borders. you don't think that or you have evidence that - manage your borders. you don't think that or you have evidence that is i that or you have evidence that is the case? i that or you have evidence that is the case? ~' , :, that or you have evidence that is the case? ~ ., that or you have evidence that is the case? ~ , ., ., ., the case? i think you are arguing... i'm the case? i think you are arguing... l'm asking — the case? i think you are arguing... l'm asking for— the case? i think you are arguing... i'm asking for evidence. _ the case? i think you are arguing... i'm asking for evidence. this - the case? i think you are arguing... i'm asking for evidence. this is i the case? i think you are arguing... i'm asking for evidence. this is the | i'm asking for evidence. this is the labour party _ i'm asking for evidence. this is the labour party position _ i'm asking for evidence. this is the labour party position as _ i'm asking for evidence. this is the labour party position as well. i i'm asking for evidence. this is the labour party position as well. you | labour party position as well. you argue the soul way to protect borders is to have an efficient system waving people in, processing claims quickly and letting them get on with life. you claims quickly and letting them get on with life. :, :, �* claims quickly and letting them get on with life-— on with life. you wouldn't have --eole on with life. you wouldn't have people lounging _ on with life. you wouldn't have people lounging around - on with life. you wouldn't have people lounging around in i on with life. you wouldn't have l people lounging around in hotels on with life. you wouldn't have i people lounging around in hotels on benefits costing taxpayers £8 million a day. i benefits costing taxpayers £8 million a day.— benefits costing taxpayers £8 million a day. i don't think you should have _ million a day. i don't think you should have people _ million a day. i don't think you should have people in - million a day. i don't think you should have people in hotels. million a day. i don't think you i should have people in hotels and i expect to close them soon. but i do not believe that if you allow people to come into the uk and work immediately, the labour party position... the majority of these people are economic migrants, that that will make the problem better. it will make it significantly worse because you are creating even more pull factors to the uk. the vast majority, in fact everyone coming across in small boats have passed through multiple safe countries. they could have settled in france