his son lachlan is taking over. it's a good moment to take stock and you might want to join us it's a good moment to take stock and you might want tojoin us on it's a good moment to take stock and you might want to join us on this one. there are many aspects and angles on it. politicians beat a path to his door, lobo, tory, no route, no chance. piers morgan said, bold, brilliant, visionary leader. borisjohnson said, hale. jeremy hunt described him as a joint. this is a man who has been of incalculable influence. innovative, media genius, trailblazer, visionary, defender of press freedom and free speech to some, but for others it is dark and immoral cancer at the heart of british life. what is his legacy? is it media revolutionary? the man who changed football, saved football. the news of the world, fox news, hugely influential and of course there is a

phone hacking and hillsborough. he said britain's vote to leave the eu was wonderful and described donald trump as a very able man. maybe, very often, in the words of the famous, some might say infamous, it was the sun what won it. if you were in a room with rupert murdoch, what would you say? murdoch, the media and you. get in touch. a comedian who used to work with russell brand says the former actor had a reputation for "getting angry or a bit nasty" with women who rejected him. cole parker worked with russell brand in the early 20005. mr brand has said his relationships were "always consensual".

labour is setting out plans to give the economic watchdog more powers — which it says would avoid a repeat of "disastrous" mistakes made in last year's mini budget — when liz truss was prime minister. the government has criticised labour's record on spending when it was in power. an eight—year—old girl has become the first child in the uk to receive a kidney transplant without needing to take drugs for life after the operation. she received stem cells from her motherfirst, which meant her body accepted the new organ. and ukraine's president zelensky has arrived in canada for his first visit since the russian invasion. earlier he held talks in washington with president biden, who pledged more military assistance for kyiv. just looking at the internal e—mail

sent to fox news about the standing down of rupert murdoch and this is from rupert murdoch himself. he is talking about his own father. my father firmly believed in freedom and lachlan is committed to the cause. self—serving bureaucracies are seeking to silence those who would question their provenance and purpose. elites have open contempt for those who are not members of their rarefied class. most of the media is in cahoots with those elites, peddling political narratives rather than pursuing the truth. strong stuff there, seeing himself as an outsider, as a disrupter, a champion of freedom of speech and freedom of thought as well. an interesting phrase, the self—serving elite. and he also criticises awful, woke orthodoxy. that might chime with you very much.

i know it does. some headlines over the years, the sinking of the belgrano, gotch, george michael, zipped me up before you go—go, and the sun what won it after kinnick lost the election. an upper yours delors, and talking of neil kinnock, if kinnock wins today were the last person in britain please turn out the lights. he has influenced all of our lives and been at the heart of the global media, british media and the global media, british media and the man who changed football, murdoch, the media and you. looking forward to those texts as ever.

ciaran maguire is stuart, thank you for coming on this morning. your thoughts on the legacy of rupert murdoch and what he has given or taken from british life. i completely agree that he was an outsider to the british establishment. he basically came from australia, determined to make an impact and he revolutionised our newspaper industry and set about revolutionising our television industry which is when i had dealings with him and then he said about attempting to revolutionise british football man to a certain extent british rugby league as well. quite a track record. his supporters would say he brought a new commitment to journalism which some owners of newspapers have not always have. and his critics would say that there was a coarsening ofjournalism

and they would point to the sun and pastry so very much a balance that i would give to the mouth to a man who is very much still with us.— is very much still with us. would he have seen the _ is very much still with us. would he have seen the hillsborough - is very much still with us. would he i have seen the hillsborough headline? that notorious handle for headline and story on the front page. because he was very hands—on. his and story on the front page. because he was very hands-on.— he was very hands-on. his editors didn't ring — he was very hands-on. his editors didn't ring up _ he was very hands-on. his editors didn't ring up and _ he was very hands-on. his editors didn't ring up and say _ he was very hands-on. his editors didn't ring up and say do - he was very hands-on. his editors didn't ring up and say do this, - he was very hands-on. his editors didn't ring up and say do this, or | didn't ring up and say do this, or do that but they were always aware of him over their shoulder and they knew what he liked and disliked and had enormous respect for his technical knowledge of how to produce a newspaper, or latterly, how to make a television programme. let's be honest, they knew who they were dealing with and what he would want them to do. and then he rang up and told them what to do, i doubt that. �* ., ., ,., and told them what to do, i doubt that. �* ., ., , ., ., . ~ that. and what about phone hacking? some peeple — that. and what about phone hacking? some people would _ that. and what about phone hacking? some people would say _ that. and what about phone hacking? some people would say he _ that. and what about phone hacking? some people would say he must - that. and what about phone hacking? j some people would say he must have had an idea that there were certain

nefarious, how do i put this, underhand practices going on without knowing the specifics and maybe he thought as an old fashion journalist that all is fair in love and war. that was an unseemly episode, wasn't it? , , .,, ., it? yes, we saw him prostrate himself before _ it? yes, we saw him prostrate himself before a _ it? yes, we saw him prostrate himself before a select - it? yes, we saw him prostrate - himself before a select committee in the house of commons and whether it was for real orjust a performance we will never entirely know that he did bring enormous financial damage to his organisation apart from anything else and reputational damage and we will never exactly know who knew what and when and certainly his sonjames was watching the british newspaper side of the business at the time and i suspect that they did not want to pass on to him the things that they actually knew, but ultimately the buck stops with him and of course it did damage his reputation and continues to this day. there are court actions and

there is the prince harry court action on the go so this is a saga that never goes away and has been probably one of his darkest hours. what about the undermining of democracy are some people would argue in the usa, and peddling the myth, the lie, as fox news did, not rupert murdoch, as fox news did that the election was rigged? i rupert murdoch, as fox news did that the election was rigged?— the election was rigged? i think in terms of what _ the election was rigged? i think in terms of what happened - the election was rigged? i think in terms of what happened in - the election was rigged? i think in terms of what happened in the - the election was rigged? i think in| terms of what happened in the us, the fox news handling of the last american election was probably his darkest hour because he created fox news to post an alternative view to what he saw as the liberal network of the time and what it amounted to was lying in and i say lying advisedly because there were court documents involved in the case with a company called dominion who sued fox news for what they alleged fox news had said about the handling of

the election results and there were documents which showed that the presenters on fox news absolutely new that what they were saying about trump winning the election was a lie that they were doing it because they were worried if they didn't they would lose audience and ratings and lose money and is one of them said at the time, we have to do this to protect the share price. no journalist worth his salt would never say something untrue to protect the company share price and that i think has been the new low and it may be that he got entangled in that court case because of certain documents and things he had said and done, none of them proving that he in any way supported what had been done but it certainly did not stop it in one of his reasons for stepping back might be that he does not want to get entangled in the day to day in the way he did in the day to day in the way he did in the past year. it’s the day to day in the way he did in the past year-— the past year. it's so interesting, civen the past year. it's so interesting, given your _ the past year. it's so interesting, given your encounter _ the past year. it's so interesting, given your encounter with - the past year. it's so interesting, given your encounter with this i given your encounter with this extraordinary man. 0bviously

revolutionary, this media innovator who chains of the landscape in a thorough and profound way. but there are so many questions. we also have the triumph of the premier league. yes, the success, the hit rate is pretty strong. and there was a newspaper called today and was not able to turn around but there were lots of success stories and win by meetings with him, ifound him a good listener, which might surprise some people. he always wanted to find things to turn against you in due course. and one time i was negotiating with him and ted turner at cnn and what you might think a media mogul was like, loudmouth and

brush and murdoch was very quiet and cunning and as ted turner did. don't think of him as someone who shouts the odds for everyone. i'm sure he gave people were alex ferguson would pull the hairdryer treatment but quite often he was also a quiet listener. �* ,., quite often he was also a quiet listener. �* , ., , quite often he was also a quiet listener. �* , .,, quite often he was also a quiet listener. �* , ., listener. and some people say at heart an inky _ listener. and some people say at heart an inky fingered _ listener. and some people say at. heart an inky fingered old-fashioned heart an inky fingered old—fashioned hackis heart an inky fingered old—fashioned hack is an incredibly creative innovative things, but finally, for now we use to see pictures of the rupert murdoch summer party and every leading political figure on the landscape was quaffing champagne and eating vile advance. they all beat apart to his door and he beat a path to their back door and was letting —— eating vol—au—vents. is this pernicious?

letting -- eating vol-au-vents. is this pernicious?— this pernicious? let's be honest, lots of media _ this pernicious? let's be honest, lots of media proprietors - this pernicious? let's be honest, lots of media proprietors like - this pernicious? let's be honest, lots of media proprietors like to l this pernicious? let's be honest, l lots of media proprietors like to do that and he was just a darn sight more successful than anyone else and one other example you might be interested in, when i was working at 0fcom on media policy, i remember a couple of meetings where i met with government officials trying out some ideas which would have had an effect on murdoch's media empire, and basically being told quietly that those ideas would not be welcome in downing street. i think the courting of murdoch by politicians and the courting of the politicians by murdoch did actually have a practical effect.— murdoch did actually have a practical effect. murdoch did actually have a ractical effect. , ., . ., , practical effect. they danced to his tune, practical effect. they danced to his tune. didn't _ practical effect. they danced to his tune, didn't they? _ practical effect. they danced to his tune, didn't they? you _ practical effect. they danced to his tune, didn't they? you could - practical effect. they danced to his tune, didn't they? you could put . practical effect. they danced to his tune, didn't they? you could put it| tune, didn't they? you could put it as cruelly as _ tune, didn't they? you could put it as cruelly as that _ tune, didn't they? you could put it as cruelly as that but _ tune, didn't they? you could put it as cruelly as that but there - tune, didn't they? you could put it as cruelly as that but there is a - as cruelly as that but there is a version of it where they would not want to get into policy areas where they would come into conflict with rupert murdoch. i they would come into conflict with rupert murdoch.— rupert murdoch. i can put it as crudely as _ rupert murdoch. i can put it as crudely as that, _ rupert murdoch. i can put it as crudely as that, like _ rupert murdoch. i can put it as crudely as that, like many - rupert murdoch. i can put it as crudely as that, like many of l rupert murdoch. i can put it as - crudely as that, like many of famous headlines those it. the media are a

self—serving elite, says frankie. another one says murdoch is selling the narrative to the highest bidder for years has never done anything of note for less than financial gain. very much part of the ruling elite. a potential paradox noted thereby that text. rupert murdoch is an excellent businessman, huge taxpayer and agent of forward—looking change. it's easy to hate him but none who criticise him have done any better. that is from ewan. and murdoch is the elite of the elite, a mega elitist to do the presidents and prime ministers must fall and a negative influence. that is from dc in bristol. i won't be tuning in today, nikki, ican�*t in bristol. i won't be tuning in today, nikki, i can't stand that man. he's are nothing but a negative influence on politics in this country and through the well. how can someone hold that influence and power and even now you are giving him a platform. i wish i was. i wish he was here now so he would take

your calls. and if he were to take your calls. and if he were to take your calls, what would you say to him? i am slightly channelling logan roy from succession, brian cox, let's talk murdoch and let's talk to terry in greenwich. hello, terry, and simon in winchester. ciaran maguire, i will be with you in a minute. simon, have yoursay. let me put it to you. if i were lucky enough to have rupert murdoch in the studio now taking your call, what would you say to him? simon oh, dear, i'm not sure my language would be appropriate. the dear, i'm not sure my language would be appr0priate-— be appropriate. the theme of my thinkin: is be appropriate. the theme of my thinking is really _ be appropriate. the theme of my thinking is really that _ be appropriate. the theme of my thinking is really that in - be appropriate. the theme of my thinking is really that in our- thinking is really that in our society, i think it's really unhealthy that a person like him can

accumulate so much power and influence, if you like. there is something nondemocratic about his way of doing business. because it's about accumulating power and influence to the extent that we have seen that when you have an election or whatever, politicians, would be politicians and prime ministers will kowtow and run to the murdoch empire carrying favour, trying to get on the right side of this massive influence. i think that that kind of power and influence actually is nondemocratic. i power and influence actually is nondemocratic.— power and influence actually is nondemocratic. i well remember, simon, nondemocratic. i well remember, simon. and _ nondemocratic. i well remember, simon. and we — nondemocratic. i well remember, simon, and we will _ nondemocratic. i well remember, simon, and we will get _ nondemocratic. i well remember, simon, and we will get terry's - nondemocratic. i well remember, i simon, and we will get terry's taken a second, interviewing gordon brown when he was prime minister on the

morning of the labour party conference when it had been announced that rupert murdoch was withdrawing his support from gordon brown and had changed his allegiance to david cameron, and interviewing gordon brown that morning, no matter the face gordon brown was putting on for the world, like he was said to be in scotland, a bear with a sore head, very angry about it, because head, very angry about it, because he realised and very much appreciated the importance of having murdoch on side and your point is what about the politicians being on site for murdoch, exactly what many people are saying. terry in greenwich, tell us about your dad. i heard you talking about murdoch this morning, i always think of my dad in these times. my dad used to work for news international and deliver the reams of paper in his lorry up to fleet street and in the grand scheme of things, is pretty small, but my

dad he would drop them off and have breakfast or lunch or whatever and rupert murdoch would come in if he happened to be in the building and sent down, and sit amongst all the other workers. sent down, and sit amongst all the otherworkers. he sent down, and sit amongst all the other workers. he wasn't in some private office having a board meeting. he would come in there, sit down and chew the fat with everybody and i think, to me, that is an admirable aussie trait that you can be where ever in life and often they are down to earth people, australians. so he also gave my mum and dad their very first sky dish. he gave all the employees and sky dish back in the day however long ago that was but i always remember my dad said to me, you'll never guess who was sitting next to me today, go on, rupert murdoch. sitting there having his breakfast. macro white he says that in his e—mail. he macro white he says that in his e-mail. . , , e-mail. he said neither excessive ride or e-mail. he said neither excessive pride or false _ e-mail. he said neither excessive pride or false humility _ e-mail. he said neither excessive pride or false humility are - pride or false humility are admirable qualities and i'm proud of what we have achieved basically and

he says i owe so much to my colleagues who have made contributions on the scene outside the company, the truck drivers distributing the papers in the cleaners who toil when we have left the office on the assistants and support is all the skilled operators behind the cameras and computer code. we would be less accessible and have less positive impact on society without your dedication. and terry, he broke the print unions which many people have never forgiven him for but many people congratulating for. he is a divisive figure. i congratulating for. he is a divisive fiaure. ., �* ., figure. i would say if i didn't have m left figure. i would say if i didn't have my left hand _ figure. i would say if i didn't have my left hand to — figure. i would say if i didn't have my left hand to my _ figure. i would say if i didn't have my left hand to my phone - figure. i would say if i didn't have my left hand to my phone on - figure. i would say if i didn't have my left hand to my phone on my| figure. i would say if i didn't have i my left hand to my phone on my ear in south london i would be clapping with both hands for that last speech because i take it he meant that, the everyday workers lots of people have views on the unions, some for, some against it some don't like some parts of it. he did what he felt was right at that time. i would buy one

of his papers and i've always bought it as long as i can remember. and those people you don't write headlines, there's been a few headlines, there's been a few headlines over the years and if i don't like them and i in a particular mood i have rung up the phone number on the bottom left hand side of the second page and whoever answers that phone, i will tell them straight that i am a long—time reader and i don't like the front page and i am just someone ringing up page and i am just someone ringing up and saying they don't like the front page and there were many like the hillsborough one and many others that i have a lot liked and i have rung up and in my small opinion whoever answers the phone in the office, i'll say i don't like today's front page and i give them feedback directly. i felt that strongly. feedback directly. i felt that stronal . ., ., ., feedback directly. i felt that stronul . ., . . . strongly. you are a son reader. mcrae and _ strongly. you are a son reader. mcrae and i — strongly. you are a son reader. mcrae and i buy _ strongly. you are a son reader. mcrae and i buy two _ strongly. you are a son reader. mcrae and i buy two papers - strongly. you are a son reader. - mcrae and i buy two papers today, the son of the daily mail and i bought them for years. and to me, my favourite paper is the mail, i love the colonies and i love reading richard littlejohn, tom hartley, so

many and i read them all. and i love the colonists and i love the sport and i love the views and it's part of my working day and i them both. what about page three, what did you think of that. take it or leave it, or turnover or whatever. if it was still there, it would still be there. i don't lose sleep over it being there or not.— there. i don't lose sleep over it being there or not. terry, what a treat being there or not. terry, what a great story _ being there or not. terry, what a great story and _ being there or not. terry, what a great story and great _ being there or not. terry, what a great story and great hearing - being there or not. terry, what a i great story and great hearing from you about your old man. let me just do a text. we've got stewart purvis and we have ciaran maguire. i worked at the sun newspaper for 22 years and says this text and once came up six floors in a lift with rupert at wapping and it was just six floors in a lift with rupert at wapping and it wasjust me six floors in a lift with rupert at wapping and it was just me and six floors in a lift with rupert at wapping and it wasjust me and him and he wore a tatty green cardigan and he wore a tatty green cardigan and look like any old man you would see in the street, completely

nondescript. i told and i loved working for him and he smiled. i let him out of the lift first. that is from tim in rochester. i tell you it's a love or hate him affair this morning. what is your view, ciaran maguire. he made football amazing, didn't he? he maguire. he made football amazing, didn't he? . ., , ., didn't he? he certainly made football difference _ didn't he? he certainly made football difference and - didn't he? he certainly made football difference and when | didn't he? he certainly made . football difference and when the premier league started in 1992, football was a tainted sport and the introduction of satellite tv and the creation of a new audience for tv allow the sport to gentrified self and the money that came in has been spectacular in the first year of the premier league, all of the clubs together generated just £200 million and that is now up to 6 billion. and he has certainly been involved in the transformation of the spore and players have benefited in terms of their wages and the quality of football has increased as well. whether that would have happened

with a different person in charge of a satellite subscription is to be debated, but that he had a symbiotic relationship between the newspapers and channel and the game itself and all have benefited as a result of that. ., . all have benefited as a result of that. ., , ., ., that. he was the one who did it, somebody _ that. he was the one who did it, somebody else _ that. he was the one who did it, somebody else might _ that. he was the one who did it, somebody else might have - that. he was the one who did it, j somebody else might have done that. he was the one who did it, l somebody else might have done it that. he was the one who did it, - somebody else might have done it but i wonder if it was his vision. when he was bskyb doing the deals and i wonder if he thought that would be what it is now. maybe that was his talent. seeing a head, and literally being a visionary.— being a visionary. he's had more hits than misses, _ being a visionary. he's had more hits than misses, and _ being a visionary. he's had more hits than misses, and that - being a visionary. he's had more hits than misses, and that is - being a visionary. he's had more hits than misses, and that is for| hits than misses, and that is for sure. andy also bought organisation such as myspace which wasn't quite the same level of success but football has been transformed and many areas of it for the good. we have a more diverse audience in

terms of age, gender and in terms of tolerance as well, so that has to be welcoming and i don't think that would necessarily happen because football is a very conservative industry and i think there was a lot of suspicion in relation to the start of the premier league that murdoch ran with we would not be watching the football today without his influence. as somebody who works in the city of liverpool there are negatives. i in the city of liverpool there are negatives-— in the city of liverpool there are neuatives. .,, ., ., ., ,~' i., negatives. i was going to ask you about that- _ negatives. i was going to ask you about that. the _ negatives. i was going to ask you about that. the effect _ negatives. i was going to ask you about that. the effect of - about that. the effect of hillsborough.— about that. the effect of hillsborou~h. ~ . . about that. the effect of hillsborou~h. ~ , , ., hillsborough. well, it is still a very deep _ hillsborough. well, it is still a very deep wound _ hillsborough. well, it is still a very deep wound as _ hillsborough. well, it is still a very deep wound as far - hillsborough. well, it is still a very deep wound as far as - hillsborough. well, it is still a very deep wound as far as the | hillsborough. well, it is still a - very deep wound as far as the people of liverpool are concerned. i am an outsider and i've worked there for 40 outsider and i've worked there for a0 years and i'm not a genuine scouse or anything like that and i can understand the depth of feeling because they did appear to be at the time a very inflammatory heading, and it was untrue heading and ifelt

the city which was in mourning was being tainted and has never forgiven him and you will not find newsagents selling that newspaper in the city and you will not find anybody with a good word to say about it still many years after the event. but good word to say about it still many years after the event.— years after the event. but you will find people _ years after the event. but you will find people watching _ years after the event. but you will find people watching sky. - years after the event. but you will find people watching sky. but - years after the event. but you will find people watching sky. but the| find people watching sky. but the sun newspaper was right at the forefront of the line. james in newbury and david in bristol, good morning, gentlemen. how are you doing? in morning, gentlemen. how are you doin: ? ., morning, gentlemen. how are you doing?— what i morning, gentlemen. how are you j doing?— what do doing? in morning, nikki. what do ou think, doing? in morning, nikki. what do you think, james? _ doing? in morning, nikki. what do you think, james? i _ doing? in morning, nikki. what do you think, james? ithink- doing? in morning, nikki. what do you think, james? i think it's - you think, james? i think it's another extraordinary - you think, james? i think it's. another extraordinary showing you think, james? i think it's - another extraordinary showing of someone who has been an expert in theirfield and someone who has been an expert in their field and ultimately has dominated the political and creative media world and we can all step back and say, i don't really like his politics or the things he does and i think he is over influential but he's done a fantasticjob and ultimately me personally i started not to buy his newspapers but i have watched a lot of his broadcast media, but people can only support him by buying his content or using

it, so we can only step back and admire, but i think it makes an interesting point with the tech giants on social media to say we should really be on the lookout for these people and see if we want them to dominate and if we don't, we need to dominate and if we don't, we need to take action or we accept how good they are. to take action or we accept how good the are. ., . ., ~ , to take action or we accept how good the are. ., , ., ~ , �* they are. that is a key point. but ou think they are. that is a key point. but you think there _ they are. that is a key point. but you think there is _ they are. that is a key point. but you think there is much - they are. that is a key point. but you think there is much to - they are. that is a key point. but i you think there is much to admire? absolutely. a summary to be on a local newspaper in australia, and australia doesn't really feature massively in the western media as such compared to the american and english creators and there he is, hand—in—hand, inviting everyone along from different political parties and hugely influential people and that is to be admired but it is a cautionary point. he has been held to account on various government inquiries and parliamentary panels and basically has run rings round them and i'm not sure, do we want to accept that christmas great fantastic talent but we should be mindful on the dangers

of what he is doing —— great fantastic talent. rather than just sitting back and allowing it to happen but we can still put some checks and balances on it and try to put our influence on it to make it more of a positive impact in terms of the creative stuff he has done as opposed to the negative. find of the creative stuff he has done as opposed to the negative.— opposed to the negative. and his children, and _ opposed to the negative. and his children, and there _ opposed to the negative. and his children, and there are _ opposed to the negative. and his children, and there are a - opposed to the negative. and his children, and there are a few - opposed to the negative. and his children, and there are a few of i children, and there are a few of them, will not one to four roubles. we have at the forefront as he had children with wendy deng but in the fourth and elizabeth, james and lachlan, but the succession is for lachlan. david, what do you think? i don't think there is much to admire about a rich man getting richer and using his wealth to influence presidents and prime ministers are denting there is anything positive about that. he has cheapened british

life over nearly 50 years and done even worse to america and i don't find anything positive about rupert murdoch. ., . find anything positive about rupert murdoch. ., , ., murdoch. cheapened? tell me more. while there is — murdoch. cheapened? tell me more. while there is the _ murdoch. cheapened? tell me more. while there is the obvious _ murdoch. cheapened? tell me more. while there is the obvious part - murdoch. cheapened? tell me more. while there is the obvious part of- while there is the obvious part of it, the obvious example is page three. nobody thought of doing that and he did it and everyone else thought they could get away with it because rupert murdoch had done it. and he has made lying respectable. hillsborough was a lie, but he went ahead and did it because it would sell papers. and over in america where fox news lies daily. the media broadcast industry _ where fox news lies daily. the media broadcast industry analyst, _ where fox news lies daily. the media broadcast industry analyst, what -

where fox news lies daily. the media broadcast industry analyst, what was| broadcast industry analyst, what was your phrase, and i wrote it down but had another thought, but your phrase about lying. he made lying, what did you say christmas respectable. that's it. he made lying respectable. is that fair, claire? not there yet. not there yet. she will be soon. the line has just dropped off. sarah in dudley, hello. hello, good morning. he dropped off. sarah in dudley, hello. hello, good morning.— dropped off. sarah in dudley, hello. hello, good morning. he made lying respectable. — hello, good morning. he made lying respectable, what _ hello, good morning. he made lying respectable, what do _ hello, good morning. he made lying respectable, what do you _ hello, good morning. he made lying respectable, what do you think - hello, good morning. he made lying respectable, what do you think of i respectable, what do you think of that phrase. respectable, what do you think of that phrase-— that phrase. that's a difficult one because i didn't _ that phrase. that's a difficult one because i didn't put _ that phrase. that's a difficult one because i didn't put that - that phrase. that's a difficult one because i didn't put that phrase l because i didn't put that phrase over to your researchers. i have many misgivings about what was said about hillsborough, many misgivings, and i understand the people of liverpool completely, because, you

know it was a hurtful time for them. and what was put out by the press and possibly, you know, fed by the government, who knows, was wrong. i have many misgivings about the news of the world and i have many misgivings about the way that he supported rebekah brooks and andy coulson during all the things that were not found to be correct in court, such as tapping telephones etc. 0n the other hand, and this is where the richard whiteley conundrum comes in, the support that the sun gave help for heroes and the nhs heroes, it is one of those, isn't it? i

don't know if i met him if i would like or dislike him. i don't know whether he would like or dislike me. possibly dislike. you know, it is like physics, isn't it, for every action, there is a reaction. yes, i mixed legacy. — action, there is a reaction. yes, i mixed legacy, interesting. i- mixed legacy, interesting. i wonder... i think we have claire back. thank you sarah. good stuff. claire, are you there? i back. thank you sarah. good stuff. claire, are you there?— back. thank you sarah. good stuff. claire, are you there? i am. we lost ou, but claire, are you there? i am. we lost you. but we — claire, are you there? i am. we lost you. but we have — claire, are you there? i am. we lost you, but we have got _ claire, are you there? i am. we lost you, but we have got your— claire, are you there? i am. we lost you, but we have got your back. the phrase from bristol, he made lying respectable. i came to you and i said, is that fair? i respectable. i came to you and i said, is that fair?— said, is that fair? i don't think that he invented _ said, is that fair? i don't think that he invented the - said, is that fair? i don't think that he invented the popular i said, is that fair? i don't think i that he invented the popular press, nor did _ that he invented the popular press, nor did he _

that he invented the popular press, nor did he invent the exaggeration. you can— nor did he invent the exaggeration. you can look across the world's press _ you can look across the world's press and — you can look across the world's press and there are some who specialise _ press and there are some who specialise in coverage of alien life on earth — specialise in coverage of alien life on earth and their arrival. no, i don't _ on earth and their arrival. no, i don't see — on earth and their arrival. no, i don't see that. i think his space, given— don't see that. i think his space, given the — don't see that. i think his space, given the weight of those titles, particularly when the news of the world _ particularly when the news of the world existed and i was interested in what _ world existed and i was interested in what your previous caller said, there _ in what your previous caller said, there is— in what your previous caller said, there is a — in what your previous caller said, there is a mixed legacy. i have worked — there is a mixed legacy. i have worked with these titles on saving the zoos, — worked with these titles on saving the zoos, child protection and on a huge _ the zoos, child protection and on a huge number of causes. there is no question— huge number of causes. there is no question the — huge number of causes. there is no question the times, the sunday times, — question the times, the sunday times, some of their investigations have change society and profoundly show _ have change society and profoundly show and — have change society and profoundly show. and that is true of the financial— show. and that is true of the financial times and the guardian and many— financial times and the guardian and many other— financial times and the guardian and many other papers. there is a whole

tradition— many other papers. there is a whole tradition of— many other papers. there is a whole tradition of popular press. you mentioned page three girls and the male and _ mentioned page three girls and the male and the sun are not the only organisations to have exaggerated or invented. _ organisations to have exaggerated or invented, or indeed completely traduced — invented, or indeed completely traduced what anybody could call trying _ traduced what anybody could call trying to — traduced what anybody could call trying to get to the truth. his achievements are considerable, but let's face _ achievements are considerable, but let's face it, for me, what i think is extraordinary is part of his legacy— is extraordinary is part of his legacy is— is extraordinary is part of his legacy is we have the strongest pubiic— legacy is we have the strongest public service broadcasting system in the _ public service broadcasting system in the world and the bbc has the greatest — in the world and the bbc has the greatest authority of all. one of the things he did not get in his lifetime — the things he did not get in his lifetime was to impair public service — lifetime was to impair public service broadcasting in the uk... not yet. — service broadcasting in the uk... not yet. he — service broadcasting in the uk... not yet, he is still with us. he

hates, hates, hates, this institution, the bbc. brute hates, hates, hates, this institution, the bbc. ~ ., , institution, the bbc. we have been defendin: institution, the bbc. we have been defending it _ institution, the bbc. we have been defending it since _ institution, the bbc. we have been defending it since 1984. _ institution, the bbc. we have been defending it since 1984. you i institution, the bbc. we have been defending it since 1984. you are i defending it since 1984. you are losina . defending it since 1984. you are losing- no. _ defending it since 1984. you are losing- no. we _ defending it since 1984. you are losing. no, we are _ defending it since 1984. you are losing. no, we are not, - defending it since 1984. you are losing. no, we are not, we i defending it since 1984. you arej losing. no, we are not, we have defending it since 1984. you are i losing. no, we are not, we have one. it is losing. no, we are not, we have one. it is always— losing. no, we are not, we have one. it is always going _ losing. no, we are not, we have one. it is always going to _ losing. no, we are not, we have one. it is always going to be _ losing. no, we are not, we have one. it is always going to be a _ losing. no, we are not, we have one. it is always going to be a battle, i it is always going to be a battle, but the — it is always going to be a battle, but the fact he is stepping back means, — but the fact he is stepping back means, of— but the fact he is stepping back means, of course, it is written into the dna— means, of course, it is written into the dna of— means, of course, it is written into the dna of the papers but the coverage, when boris left and nadine dorries— coverage, when boris left and nadine dorries stepped down as culture secretary — dorries stepped down as culture secretary the issue of the licence fee and _ secretary the issue of the licence fee and support for the bbc were settled — fee and support for the bbc were settled. . ., settled. the recent argument, we will aet settled. the recent argument, we will get more _ settled. the recent argument, we will get more from _ settled. the recent argument, we will get more from you _ settled. the recent argument, we will get more from you soon, i settled. the recent argument, we will get more from you soon, but| settled. the recent argument, we i will get more from you soon, but the recent argument about the coverage of the hugh edward story, the motives behind it. whatever the truth of that, the sun and the bbc, clash there. truth of that, the sun and the bbc, clash there-— clash there. 400 million weekly consumers _ clash there. 400 million weekly

consumers of _ clash there. 400 million weekly consumers of the _ clash there. 400 million weekly consumers of the bbc _ clash there. 400 million weekly consumers of the bbc authority| clash there. 400 million weekly l consumers of the bbc authority of the great — consumers of the bbc authority of the great big world in the middle of the great big world in the middle of the ukraine war? in the middle of covid, _ the ukraine war? in the middle of covid, it— the ukraine war? in the middle of covid, it reached 500 million people a week _ covid, it reached 500 million people a week it _ covid, it reached 500 million people a week it is — covid, it reached 500 million people a week. it is a beacon of authority that we _ a week. it is a beacon of authority that we can — a week. it is a beacon of authority that we can all take great proud in. i that we can all take great proud in. i have _ that we can all take great proud in. i have been— that we can all take great proud in. i have been doing this since 1984, if we _ i have been doing this since 1984, if we hadn't — i have been doing this since 1984, if we hadn't had rupert murdoch, we wouldn't _ if we hadn't had rupert murdoch, we wouldn't have, not only the biggest public— wouldn't have, not only the biggest public broadcasting system in europe, — public broadcasting system in europe, the biggest voice in the world, _ europe, the biggest voice in the world, but— europe, the biggest voice in the world, but we wouldn't have the biggest — world, but we wouldn't have the biggest pay company, we wouldn't be so fizzy— biggest pay company, we wouldn't be so fizzy with art expenditure on entertainment. he has changed our way of— entertainment. he has changed our way of consuming a whole range of different _ way of consuming a whole range of different things.— different things. listen, he have said notjust _ different things. listen, he have said notjust the _ different things. listen, he have said notjust the press, - different things. listen, he have said notjust the press, he i different things. listen, he have said notjust the press, he has i said notjust the press, he has changed our way of consuming and in one way or another... he changed our way of consuming and in one way or another. . ._ one way or another... he made most of his money — one way or another... he made most of his money out _ one way or another. .. he made most of his money out of— one way or another... he made most of his money out of tv. _ one way or another... he made most of his money out of tv. the - one way or another... he made most of his money out of tv. the best i of his money out of tv. the best thing _ of his money out of tv. the best thing that— of his money out of tv. the best thing that could ever happen is the bbc has _ thing that could ever happen is the bbc has never competed with his

newspapers for subscription or for sky with— newspapers for subscription or for sky with subscription income. the best thing — sky with subscription income. the best thing that could ever happen to him was _ best thing that could ever happen to him was the bbc should take no advertising. he has been saying the same _ advertising. he has been saying the same thing for 40 years.— advertising. he has been saying the same thing for 40 years. unless i go to the news — same thing for 40 years. unless i go to the news and _ same thing for 40 years. unless i go to the news and the _ same thing for 40 years. unless i go to the news and the spot, _ same thing for 40 years. unless i go to the news and the spot, i - same thing for 40 years. unless i go to the news and the spot, i won't i same thing for 40 years. unless i go to the news and the spot, i won't be | to the news and the spot, i won't be on the bbc for much longer. so more to come. murdoch, the media and you, get in touch. an eight—year—old girl has received pioneering treatment which means she can avoid taking life long drugs after a kidney transplant. she was given stem cells from her mother beforehand — which meant her body accepted the new organ. the chancellor has rejected calls from some of his own mps to promise tax cuts in november's autumn statement.

jeremy hunt said it would be "virtually impossible" — because of the focus on reducing inflation. police have found a large quantity of the opioid fentanyl hidden under a trapdoor at a nursery in new york. a one—year—old boy died of a suspected drug overdose at the daycare centre in the bronx last week. and the uk's competition watchdog has provisionally approved microsoft's multi—billion pound takeover — of the video game giant activision—blizzard. the cma said concerns about stifling competition have been addressed in a new bid. usa have dominated the morning so far on day one of the solheim cup. the foursomes are out on the course right now in andalucia. the usa are up in two, with the other two matchups currently all square. the foursomes are followed by the fourballs later this afternoon. arsenal captain martin 0degaard has signed a new five year deal with the club. the midfielder, who's been with the gunners since an initial loan move from real madrid in 2021, scored 15 goals last season.

the french rugby federation have confirmed that captain antoine dupont suffered a facial fracture during their record 96—0 victory over namibia at the rugby world cup last night. he will remain with the france squad until a specialist has determined the length of dupont�*s unavailability. scotland have made four changes to their starting 15 to face tonga in nice this sunday. winger kyle steyn and lock scott cumming come into the side. gregor townsend has also handed starts to centre chris harris and loose—head prop rory sutherland. and red bull's max verstappen finished fastest in the first and second practice sessions ahead of the weekend's japanese grand prix.

coming up for viewers on bbc two and bbc news — the latest national and international news. for listeners here on 5 live... we're talking about another huge television empire — strictly! have you got strictly fever? it's back tomorrow night — the glitterball, thejudges, the celebs and theirjourneys. the people out of their comfort zones. the moves, the crowds, the voting, the argentine tango... the jive, the american smooth. this is the 21st series,

the country absolutely loves it. i'll be joined by aj pritchard, arlene philips and superfan fanny lane — to answer your questions. keep dancing, keep calling. have you got strictly fever? yes, murdoch, the media and you. it is a lively old thing this morning and a polarising figure. many are singing his praises. all in eastbourne, we do in the second, kathy in northumberland and neil wallace, former deputy editor of the sun and the news of the well, always interesting having you on the show, how are you doing?—

interesting having you on the show, how are you doing? hello. and the former chief _ how are you doing? hello. and the former chief executive _ how are you doing? hello. and the former chief executive of _ how are you doing? hello. and the former chief executive of itn i how are you doing? hello. and the former chief executive of itn as we bang our heads together on this fascinating figure. what is so great about rupert murdoch? what fascinating figure. what is so great about rupert murdoch?— fascinating figure. what is so great about rupert murdoch? what he has achieved. when _ about rupert murdoch? what he has achieved. when you _ about rupert murdoch? what he has achieved. when you look _ about rupert murdoch? what he has achieved. when you look at - about rupert murdoch? what he has achieved. when you look at what i about rupert murdoch? what he has| achieved. when you look at what has happened in his life, he has revolutionised everything from newspapers, television to sport. i absolutely accept he divides the crowd. but what you cannot ignore is the impact that he has had. and although, yes, somebody said earlier he started as a journalist in i think it was brisbane or adelaide, i cannot remember now. it think it was brisbane or adelaide, i cannot remember now.— cannot remember now. it was adelaide- — cannot remember now. it was adelaide- it — cannot remember now. it was adelaide. it was _ cannot remember now. it was adelaide. it was his _ cannot remember now. it was adelaide. it was his father's l adelaide. it was his father's newspaper. _ adelaide. it was his father's newspaper, but _ adelaide. it was his father's newspaper, but it _ adelaide. it was his father's newspaper, but it was i adelaide. it was his father's newspaper, but it was just i adelaide. it was his father's i newspaper, but it wasjust one small

newspaper, but it was just one small newspaper, but it was just one small newspaper that he turned into arguably the biggest media, use the media, notjust about newspapers, across the world. he got some things wrong, but he got an awful lot of things right. wrong, but he got an awful lot of things right-— wrong, but he got an awful lot of thins riuht. ~ .. ., things right. what did he get wrong? what did he get _ things right. what did he get wrong? what did he get wrong? _ things right. what did he get wrong? what did he get wrong? i _ things right. what did he get wrong? what did he get wrong? i am i things right. what did he get wrong? what did he get wrong? i am talking | what did he get wrong? i am talking in the business sense. he didn't really get the digital social media revolution. and he never really got on top of that. the one place he did, he was the man who insisted that the times go behind a pay wall. at the time, he was seriously advised against that. both externally and internally. he was proved right and it is now the most profitable empire — mo part of his empire in britain. profitable empire - mo part of his empire in britain.— profitable empire - mo part of his empire in britain. paul, how are you doin: ? empire in britain. paul, how are you doing? just— empire in britain. paul, how are you doing? just about _ empire in britain. paul, how are you doing? just about hanging _ empire in britain. paul, how are you doing? just about hanging in i empire in britain. paul, how are you doing? just about hanging in there, | doing? just about hanging in there, mate. i doing? just about hanging in there, mate- i have _ doing? just about hanging in there, mate. i have been _

doing? just about hanging in there, mate. i have been spitting - doing? just about hanging in there, mate. i have been spitting feathersj mate. i have been spitting feathers listening _ mate. i have been spitting feathers listening to your programme this morning — listening to your programme this morning i— listening to your programme this morning. i was formally a machine winder_ morning. i was formally a machine winder on— morning. i was formally a machine winder on the sun. and i, along with around _ winder on the sun. and i, along with around 6000 other men and women were locked _ around 6000 other men and women were locked out— around 6000 other men and women were locked out of— around 6000 other men and women were locked out of our employment in 1986 _ locked out of our employment in 1986 i_ locked out of our employment in 1986. i have already been advised to moderate _ 1986. i have already been advised to moderate my comments by your producer, — moderate my comments by your producer, so i shall do that. i know the were producer, so i shall do that. i know they were very. _ producer, so i shall do that. i know they were very, very _ producer, so i shall do that. i know they were very, very strong, i producer, so i shall do that. i know they were very, very strong, but i producer, so i shall do that. i know| they were very, very strong, but we have to be careful... i they were very, very strong, but we have to be careful. . ._ have to be careful... i appreciate that. as have to be careful... i appreciate that- as i — have to be careful... i appreciate that. as i said, _ have to be careful... i appreciate that. as i said, from _ have to be careful... i appreciate that. as i said, from my - have to be careful... i appreciate| that. as i said, from my position, looking _ that. as i said, from my position, looking at— that. as i said, from my position, looking at things from a broader context. — looking at things from a broader context, i'd like to think, i hope this doesn't sound patronising, i don't _ this doesn't sound patronising, i don't wish — this doesn't sound patronising, i don't wish it to, i think you are of an age _ don't wish it to, i think you are of an age where you can remember... are old enough. _

an age where you can remember... are old enough. as— an age where you can remember... are old enough, as an employed person possibly— old enough, as an employed person possibly during the 80s, but you never _ possibly during the 80s, but you never had — possibly during the 80s, but you never had a 0—hour contracts and minimum — never had a 0—hour contracts and minimum wage and you didn't have fire and _ minimum wage and you didn't have fire and rehire. we had some security— fire and rehire. we had some security of— fire and rehire. we had some security of employment. after that dispute. _ security of employment. after that dispute. it — security of employment. after that dispute, it all went, it all went. and this — dispute, it all went, it all went. and this was, as some of your participants this morning made the point, _ participants this morning made the point, after he made the deal with margaret— point, after he made the deal with margaret thatcher and they got what they both _ margaret thatcher and they got what they both wanted, we, as working people _ they both wanted, we, as working people have been relatively hard done _ people have been relatively hard done it— people have been relatively hard done. it reflects back to the position— done. it reflects back to the position people are in now, where you have — position people are in now, where you have home insecurity, you have employment insecurity. the bottom line of— employment insecurity. the bottom line of all— employment insecurity. the bottom line of all this was that news

international dispute, use that word again. _ international dispute, use that word again, 6000 men and women were locked _ again, 6000 men and women were locked out — again, 6000 men and women were locked out. we never went on strike. we were _ locked out. we never went on strike. we were locked out of employment. some _ we were locked out of employment. some people celebrate that, that he broke the power of the print unions because that allowed him to expand? but what people don't seem to appreciate... in this country, we seem _ appreciate... in this country, we seem to — appreciate... in this country, we seem to have a glorious naivety and there _ seem to have a glorious naivety and there are _ seem to have a glorious naivety and there are many, many people who still believe what the press or what the media — still believe what the press or what the media tell them. still believe what the press or what the media tellthem. . and it still believe what the press or what the media tell them. . and it suited the media tell them. . and it suited the agenda — the media tell them. . and it suited the agenda of the proprietors, certainly— the agenda of the proprietors, certainly the newspapers at that time _ certainly the newspapers at that time. they supported the arguments that murdoch was putting out about greedy. _ that murdoch was putting out about greedy, overpaid printers. and to say that—

greedy, overpaid printers. and to say that people on the hot metal side, _ say that people on the hot metal side, the — say that people on the hot metal side, the compositors, some of them on piecework, they did rather well. they got— on piecework, they did rather well. they got a — on piecework, they did rather well. they got a good working class wage compared _ they got a good working class wage compared to an electrician or a plumber~ — compared to an electrician or a plumber. you are not talking in terms — plumber. you are not talking in terms of— plumber. you are not talking in terms of executive wages. he plumber. you are not talking in terms of executive wages. he says in his e-mail to — terms of executive wages. he says in his e-mail to staff, _ terms of executive wages. he says in his e-mail to staff, he _ terms of executive wages. he says in his e-mail to staff, he is _ his e—mail to staff, he is anti—elite, he said the elites have open contempt for those not members of their rarefied class. he open contempt for those not members of their rarefied class.— of their rarefied class. he has created his — of their rarefied class. he has created his own _ of their rarefied class. he has created his own elite. it i of their rarefied class. he has created his own elite. it is i of their rarefied class. he has| created his own elite. it isjust like america who kid themselves they are a republic. but in their own way, _ are a republic. but in their own way, they— are a republic. but in their own way, they create their own kings and queens _ way, they create their own kings and queens but— way, they create their own kings and queens. but it is done through well. that wealth — queens. but it is done through well. that wealth is used as a tool, just like wealth— that wealth is used as a tool, just like wealth is used as a tool by

those — like wealth is used as a tool by those that don't have it on others. he wished — those that don't have it on others. he wished to get it. they sell the story, _ he wished to get it. they sell the story, the — he wished to get it. they sell the story, the aspiration, you can also have _ story, the aspiration, you can also have this, — story, the aspiration, you can also have this, just like the people who are told _ have this, just like the people who are told everybody should aspire to own their _ are told everybody should aspire to own their own property. it is a fallacy, — own their own property. it is a fallacy, a _ own their own property. it is a fallacy, a fairy tale. that is where you get— fallacy, a fairy tale. that is where you get so— fallacy, a fairy tale. that is where you get so many people getting slung out of _ you get so many people getting slung out of houses. we have digressed. the bottom — out of houses. we have digressed. the bottom line is, that man colluded _ the bottom line is, that man colluded with margaret thatcher and other greedy trade unionists, in the electrician's— other greedy trade unionists, in the electrician's union... | other greedy trade unionists, in the electrician's union. . ._ electrician's union... i have got it. it electrician's union... i have got it- it said _ electrician's union... i have got it. it said the _ electrician's union... i have got it. it said the narrative, i electrician's union... i have got| it. it said the narrative, created the narrative, which was fundamentally against the workers. neil wallace, fundamentally against the workers. neilwallace, responding fundamentally against the workers. neil wallace, responding to that, that proud man, paul, a machine minder at the sun and 6000 others

were locked out of their work, was that the right thing to do? that gentleman _ that the right thing to do? t'isgt gentleman speaking is very impressive. however, sadly, he is wrong. the problem was, the unions he is talking about were destroying fleet street. they were destroying and preventing the development of an industry. fleet street was on its knees financially. and what murdoch did, he had to do it because people like that fine gentleman there, they were preventing the development of technology. they were preventing the progress forward. the hour's structure that was running in newspapers at that time was madness.

you are regulating the truth. the success and _ you are regulating the truth. iia: success and the you are regulating the truth. tia: success and the profitability you are regulating the truth. ti2 success and the profitability field progress. success and the profitability field ro . ress. ., success and the profitability field rouress. ., ., ., progress. you are regulating the truth. i progress. you are regulating the truth- i was _ progress. you are regulating the truth. i was part _ progress. you are regulating the truth. i was part of _ progress. you are regulating the truth. i was part of that - progress. you are regulating the truth. i was part of that at i progress. you are regulating the truth. i was part of that at the i truth. i was part of that at the time. truth. i was part of that at the time- you _ truth. i was part of that at the time. you are _ truth. i was part of that at the time. you are just _ truth. i was part of that at the i time. you are just manipulating truth. i was part of that at the - time. you are just manipulating the time. you are 'ust manipulating the truth. the time. you are just manipulating the truth. the unions _ time. you are just manipulating the truth. the unions overstretch - truth. the unions overstretch themselves, _ truth. the unions overstretch themselves, they _ truth. the unions overstretch themselves, they became . truth. the unions overstretch . themselves, they became power truth. the unions overstretch - themselves, they became power mad and they decided how the industry would go. what happened after wapping, yes, iam really sad would go. what happened after wapping, yes, i am really sad this gentleman got caught up in the way that he describes. but it absolutely unleashed creativity across fleet street. it led to the development of new newspapers, it led to money going into rupert murdoch being able to launch things like sky tv. it led eventually to what you see now, new

tv channels and so forth.— tv channels and so forth. 0-hour contracts. — tv channels and so forth. 0-hour contracts, minimum _ tv channels and so forth. 0-hour contracts, minimum wages, - tv channels and so forth. 0-hour contracts, minimum wages, how| contracts, minimum wages, how wonderful— contracts, minimum wages, how wonderful that is, fire and rehire, i am _ wonderful that is, fire and rehire, i am sure — wonderful that is, fire and rehire, i am sure you put your hand up and say what _ i am sure you put your hand up and saywhata— i am sure you put your hand up and say what a great thing they were and it all stemmed from them. i say what a great thing they were and it all stemmed from them.— say what a great thing they were and it all stemmed from them. i am? i on? yes. — it all stemmed from them. i am? i on? yes. you _ it all stemmed from them. i am? i on? yes, you are. _ it all stemmed from them. i am? i on? yes, you are. i— it all stemmed from them. i am? i on? yes, you are. i am _ it all stemmed from them. i am? i on? yes, you are. i am surprised l it all stemmed from them. i am? i | on? yes, you are. i am surprised he hasn't described _ on? yes, you are. i am surprised he hasn't described the _ on? yes, you are. i am surprised he hasn't described the system - on? yes, you are. i am surprised he hasn't described the system in - on? yes, you are. i am surprised he hasn't described the system in fleet street _ hasn't described the system in fleet street. this is what thatcher and murdoch— street. this is what thatcher and murdoch managed to create, was before _ murdoch managed to create, was before then, if people are going to before then, if people are going to be put _ before then, if people are going to be put out — before then, if people are going to be put out of work through computerisation and new technology, the proprietors had to sit round a table _ the proprietors had to sit round a table and — the proprietors had to sit round a table and negotiate it. and so somebody was going to go out of work, _ somebody was going to go out of work, they were going to go out of work_ work, they were going to go out of work with— work, they were going to go out of work with either enough money that they can _ work with either enough money that they can take a pension and not go to work_ they can take a pension and not go to work again, or enough money to

buy enough— to work again, or enough money to buy enough time to buy a reasonable source _ buy enough time to buy a reasonable source of— buy enough time to buy a reasonable source of employment. this was going on before _ source of employment. this was going on before 1986. sorry, can ijust finish _ on before 1986. sorry, can i 'ust finish. , , on before 1986. sorry, can i 'ust finish._ before h on before 1986. sorry, can ijust finish._ before i - finish. very quickly. before i forret! finish. very quickly. before i forget! what _ finish. very quickly. before i forget! what neil _ finish. very quickly. before i forget! what neil hasn't - finish. very quickly. before i l forget! what neil hasn't said, finish. very quickly. before i i forget! what neil hasn't said, i cannot— forget! what neil hasn't said, i cannot afford to get worked up, what he has _ cannot afford to get worked up, what he has failed to say, how far the negotiations had got prior to the look-out — negotiations had got prior to the lock—out. all the various chapels were _ lock—out. all the various chapels were coming together. the union agreements, where there had been interunion — agreements, where there had been interunion rivalry is, and on the sun, _ interunion rivalry is, and on the sun. at— interunion rivalry is, and on the sun. at the _ interunion rivalry is, and on the sun, at the time that was my main source _ sun, at the time that was my main source of— sun, at the time that was my main source of employment.— source of employment. sorry, you have made — source of employment. sorry, you have made loads _ source of employment. sorry, you have made loads of _ source of employment. sorry, you have made loads of brilliant - source of employment. sorry, you have made loads of brilliant and i have made loads of brilliant and powerful points. it is getting a brilliant and powerful reaction. i am looking at the clock, i don't want to be read because you have

been a star caller this morning because of your experience. ijust want to bring somebody else in, tim in rochester injust want to bring somebody else in, tim in rochester in just a second. but on the point that you are making, i think i can throw that to simon potter, an expert on british media history at the university of bristol. simon, just a quick one, the breaking of the print unions, what a call from paul, robustly responded to by neil wallace. your thoughts? i responded to by neil wallace. your thourhts? ., , ., , responded to by neil wallace. your thourhts? ., , . , ., thoughts? i only had the last bit of that conversation, _ thoughts? i only had the last bit of that conversation, but _ thoughts? i only had the last bit of that conversation, but what - thoughts? i only had the last bit of that conversation, but what i - thoughts? i only had the last bit of| that conversation, but what i would try to _ that conversation, but what i would try to say. — that conversation, but what i would try to say. to— that conversation, but what i would try to say. to put— that conversation, but what i would try to say, to put things _ that conversation, but what i would try to say, to put things into - try to say, to put things into historical— try to say, to put things into historical perspective, - try to say, to put things into historical perspective, we i try to say, to put things into i historical perspective, we have try to say, to put things into - historical perspective, we have had press _ historical perspective, we have had press barons — historical perspective, we have had press barons ih _ historical perspective, we have had press barons in the _ historical perspective, we have had press barons in the uk _ historical perspective, we have had press barons in the uk for- historical perspective, we have had press barons in the uk for 120 - historical perspective, we have hadi press barons in the uk for 120 years who have _ press barons in the uk for 120 years who have driven _ press barons in the uk for 120 years who have driven the _ press barons in the uk for 120 years who have driven the british - press barons in the uk for 120 years who have driven the british media . who have driven the british media industry— who have driven the british media industry into — who have driven the british media industry into a _ who have driven the british media industry into a very _ who have driven the british media industry into a very tight, - who have driven the british media industry into a very tight, lean, i industry into a very tight, lean, commercial— industry into a very tight, lean, commercial operation. - industry into a very tight, lean, commercial operation. britain i industry into a very tight, lean, . commercial operation. britain has had an_ commercial operation. britain has had an industry— commercial operation. britain has had an industry rather— commercial operation. britain has had an industry rather than- commercial operation. britain has i had an industry rather than oppress, for over— had an industry rather than oppress, for over a _ had an industry rather than oppress, for over a century. _

had an industry rather than oppress, for over a century. —— _ had an industry rather than oppress, for over a century. —— press. - had an industry rather than oppress, for over a century. —— press. what. for overa century. —— press. what murdoch— for overa century. —— press. what murdoch did — for overa century. —— press. what murdoch did was _ for overa century. —— press. what murdoch did was turn _ for overa century. —— press. what murdoch did was turn it _ for overa century. —— press. what murdoch did was turn it into - for overa century. —— press. what murdoch did was turn it into a - murdoch did was turn it into a global— murdoch did was turn it into a global press _ murdoch did was turn it into a global press industry. - murdoch did was turn it into a global press industry. he - global press industry. he established _ global press industry. he established a _ global press industry. he established a globe - global press industry. he established a globe —— l global press industry. he - established a globe —— global global press industry. he _ established a globe —— global media empire _ established a globe —— global media empire that— established a globe —— global media empire that didn't _ established a globe —— global media empire that didn't have _ established a globe —— global media empire that didn't have any- empire that didn't have any precedents _ empire that didn't have any precedents. now, - empire that didn't have any precedents. now, the - empire that didn't have any. precedents. now, the turning empire that didn't have any- precedents. now, the turning point, it might _ precedents. now, the turning point, it might be — precedents. now, the turning point, it might be the — precedents. now, the turning point, it might be the last— precedents. now, the turning point, it might be the last global— precedents. now, the turning point, it might be the last global media - it might be the last global media empire _ it might be the last global media empire that— it might be the last global media empire that is— it might be the last global media empire that is based _ it might be the last global media empire that is based on- it might be the last global media empire that is based on print - it might be the last global media - empire that is based on print media. all the _ empire that is based on print media. all the challenges— empire that is based on print media. all the challenges now— empire that is based on print media. all the challenges now facing - all the challenges now facing traditional— all the challenges now facing traditional print _ all the challenges now facing traditional print newspapersl all the challenges now facing i traditional print newspapers is all the challenges now facing - traditional print newspapers is so intense, — traditional print newspapers is so intense, it— traditional print newspapers is so intense, it doesn't _ traditional print newspapers is so intense, it doesn't seem - traditional print newspapers is so intense, it doesn't seem likely. traditional print newspapers is sol intense, it doesn't seem likely we will have — intense, it doesn't seem likely we will have somebody _ intense, it doesn't seem likely we will have somebody coming - intense, it doesn't seem likely we will have somebody coming along| intense, it doesn't seem likely we - will have somebody coming along like murdoch. _ will have somebody coming along like murdoch. who — will have somebody coming along like murdoch, who loves _ will have somebody coming along like murdoch, who loves newspapers, - will have somebody coming along like . murdoch, who loves newspapers, wants to make _ murdoch, who loves newspapers, wants to make his— murdoch, who loves newspapers, wants to make his money— murdoch, who loves newspapers, wants to make his money out— murdoch, who loves newspapers, wants to make his money out of— murdoch, who loves newspapers, wants to make his money out of newspapers l to make his money out of newspapers and keep— to make his money out of newspapers and keep newspapers— to make his money out of newspapers and keep newspapers going. - to make his money out of newspapers and keep newspapers going. horat- and keep newspapers going. how interral and keep newspapers going. how integral was _ and keep newspapers going. how integral was he? _ and keep newspapers going. integralwas he? eric, i and keep newspapers going. hui-n. integralwas he? eric, iwill and keep newspapers going. integral was he? eric, i will be with you in a second. how integral was he in the whole narrative, the whole policy, the whole political drift of breaking union power? what drift of breaking union power? what ha--ens drift of breaking union power? what ha ens in drift of breaking union power? what happens in fleet — drift of breaking union power? what happens in fleet street and that wapping —

happens in fleet street and that wapping was _ happens in fleet street and that wapping was brutal. _ happens in fleet street and that wapping was brutal. the - happens in fleet street and that wapping was brutal. the way. happens in fleet street and that. wapping was brutal. the way that happens in fleet street and that - wapping was brutal. the way that he is there _ wapping was brutal. the way that he is there at— wapping was brutal. the way that he is there at the — wapping was brutal. the way that he is there at the centre _ wapping was brutal. the way that he is there at the centre of _ wapping was brutal. the way that he is there at the centre of the - is there at the centre of the politics— is there at the centre of the politics of— is there at the centre of the politics of the _ is there at the centre of the politics of the period - is there at the centre of the politics of the period as - is there at the centre of the i politics of the period as well, is there at the centre of the - politics of the period as well, it is a crucial— politics of the period as well, it is a crucial moment. _ politics of the period as well, it is a crucial moment. i- politics of the period as well, it is a crucial moment. i wouldn't| is a crucial moment. i wouldn't underestimate _ is a crucial moment. i wouldn't underestimate its _ is a crucial moment. i wouldn't underestimate its significancel is a crucial moment. i wouldn't i underestimate its significance to the history— underestimate its significance to the history of— underestimate its significance to the history of unionism - underestimate its significance to the history of unionism or- underestimate its significance to| the history of unionism or british conservativism. _ the history of unionism or british conservativism. so _ the history of unionism or british conservativism.— conservativism. so interesting. eric, conservativism. so interesting. eric. good _ conservativism. so interesting. eric, good morning, _ conservativism. so interesting. eric, good morning, what- conservativism. so interesting. eric, good morning, what do i conservativism. so interesting. i eric, good morning, what do you conservativism. so interesting. - eric, good morning, what do you want to say? i eric, good morning, what do you want to sa ? ., , ~' eric, good morning, what do you want to sa ? ., , ,, ., eric, good morning, what do you want tosa? ., , ,, to say? i would 'ust like to say he was a to say? i would just like to say he was a disgusting _ to say? i would just like to say he was a disgusting man. _ to say? i would just like to say he was a disgusting man. what - to say? i would just like to say he was a disgusting man. what he i to say? i would just like to say he. was a disgusting man. what he did for me at the majority of people at my age was ruin the football and the cricket in the boxing. we used to get it all on the bbc and they have to pay through the nose to get it. if anyone can make 17.5 billion, someone, somewhere along the line is getting ripped off and that is us. what is nonsense? that gentleman there, with the _ what is nonsense? that gentleman there, with the greatest _ what is nonsense? that gentleman there, with the greatest of - what is nonsense? that gentleman there, with the greatest of respect |

there, with the greatest of respect to him. _ there, with the greatest of respect to him. to — there, with the greatest of respect to him, to say that football, cricket, _ to him, to say that football, cricket, was all free on the bbc, it simply— cricket, was all free on the bbc, it simply wasn't. the reason it was such— simply wasn't. the reason it was such a _ simply wasn't. the reason it was such a huge _ simply wasn't. the reason it was such a huge success was because there _ such a huge success was because there was— such a huge success was because there was so little coverage of football — there was so little coverage of football and cricket on the bbc. or anywhere — football and cricket on the bbc. or anywhere else. once a week for 45 minutes— anywhere else. once a week for 45 minutes on— anywhere else. once a week for 45 minutes on a saturday night. we had all the tests — minutes on a saturday night. we had all the tests on, _ minutes on a saturday night. we had all the tests on, when _ minutes on a saturday night. we had all the tests on, when they _ minutes on a saturday night. we had all the tests on, when they were - minutes on a saturday night. we had all the tests on, when they were on, | all the tests on, when they were on, england, south africa and england and football every afternoon on a saturday. he and football every afternoon on a saturda . , , , �* , saturday. he simply didn't. it is fantas . saturday. he simply didn't. it is fantasy- lt— saturday. he simply didn't. it is fantasy. it wasn't _ saturday. he simply didn't. it is fantasy. it wasn't there. - saturday. he simply didn't. it is fantasy. it wasn't there. it - saturday. he simply didn't. it is fantasy. it wasn't there. it has i fantasy. it wasn't there. it has been good _ fantasy. it wasn't there. it has been good for _ fantasy. it wasn't there. it has been good for sport, - fantasy. it wasn't there. it has been good for sport, hasn't i fantasy. it wasn't there. it has| been good for sport, hasn't it? fantasy. it wasn't there. it has - been good for sport, hasn't it? all that money has been good for sport, transformed sport. the bbc cannot afford to put the money into sport

that rupert murdoch and his organisations and others have we couldn't afford to do that. your licence fee, it wouldn't be sustainable. if licence fee, it wouldn't be sustainable.— licence fee, it wouldn't be sustainable. , ., ., , sustainable. if you advertise, it would be sustainable _ sustainable. if you advertise, it would be sustainable if- sustainable. if you advertise, it would be sustainable if you - sustainable. if you advertise, iti would be sustainable if you had sustainable. if you advertise, it - would be sustainable if you had that uncharged the same price. you would like adverts? — uncharged the same price. you would like adverts? a _ uncharged the same price. you would like adverts? a word _ uncharged the same price. you would like adverts? a word from _ uncharged the same price. you would like adverts? a word from our - like adverts? a word from our sponsor? thank you, eric. good morning, tim, rupert murdoch, go on? i worked at the sun, i got the job three _ i worked at the sun, i got the job three months after they moved from fleet street to wapping. i have never— fleet street to wapping. i have never worked in that industry before and it— never worked in that industry before and it was— never worked in that industry before and it was eye—opening. i do remember, if he appeared on the news room floor— remember, if he appeared on the news room floor it _ remember, if he appeared on the news room floor it wasn't right that everybody throws but people were tiptoeing _ everybody throws but people were tiptoeing around a little bit. but the guy, —

tiptoeing around a little bit. but the guy, from my point of view was 'ust the guy, from my point of view was just a _ the guy, from my point of view was just a genius. he broke with the unions — just a genius. he broke with the unions in — just a genius. he broke with the unions in fleet street and started producing — unions in fleet street and started producing a newspaper in a completely different way. and within two years. _ completely different way. and within two years, every other newspaper was doing _ two years, every other newspaper was doing just _ two years, every other newspaper was doing just the same. i think his foresight— doing just the same. i think his foresight was quite incredible. i loved _ foresight was quite incredible. i loved it — foresight was quite incredible. i loved it i— foresight was quite incredible. i loved it. ithink foresight was quite incredible. i loved it. i think everyone else that work— loved it. i think everyone else that work there — loved it. i think everyone else that work there did as well. the editors, backbench, — work there did as well. the editors, backbench, the subs, the whole shooting — backbench, the subs, the whole shooting match, everyone loved it, it was— shooting match, everyone loved it, it was such — shooting match, everyone loved it, it was such a — shooting match, everyone loved it, it was such a great atmosphere. i recognise — it was such a great atmosphere. i recognise neil wallace's name, it was such a great atmosphere. i recognise neilwallace's name, i haven't— recognise neilwallace's name, i haven't spoken to him for years, but he will— haven't spoken to him for years, but he will back— haven't spoken to him for years, but he will back me up. he had this power. — he will back me up. he had this power. this— he will back me up. he had this power, this aura. | he will back me up. he had this power, this aura.— he will back me up. he had this power, this aura. i absolutely bet on that. power, this aura. i absolutely bet on that- was _ power, this aura. i absolutely bet on that. was he _ power, this aura. i absolutely bet on that. was he a _ power, this aura. i absolutely bet on that. was he a genius, - power, this aura. i absolutely beti on that. was he a genius, marie? power, this aura. i absolutely bet - on that. was he a genius, marie? no, he was an on that. was he a genius, marie? idol, he was an obnoxious man. on that. was he a genius, marie? mfr, he was an obnoxious man. the way that he thought page three was

wonderful, i was a founder member of no more page three and we were weeping withjoy when no more page three and we were weeping with joy when it was decided weeping with joy when it was decided we were not going to have degrading photographs of nude girls on page three. and women. it photographs of nude girls on page three. and women.— three. and women. it was quite a campaign. _ three. and women. it was quite a campaign. i _ three. and women. it was quite a campaign, i remember _ three. and women. it was quite a campaign, i remember it. - three. and women. it was quite a campaign, i remember it. i- three. and women. it was quite a - campaign, i remember it. i remember the phone—ins, for a start. why did you feel so strongly? the phone-ins, for a start. why did you feel so strongly?— you feel so strongly? because i don't think— you feel so strongly? because i don't think a — you feel so strongly? because i don't think a mainstream - you feel so strongly? because i - don't think a mainstream newspaper should have had nude women on page three. ihleiii should have had nude women on page three. ~ . .. should have had nude women on page three. . . ., , ., ., should have had nude women on page three. . . ., ., ., ~ three. neilwallace, was that a mark of shame over _ three. neilwallace, was that a mark of shame over the _ three. neilwallace, was that a mark of shame over the years, _ three. neilwallace, was that a mark of shame over the years, page - three. neil wallace, was that a markl of shame over the years, page three? at the time now, but society change. it at the time now, but society change. it was _ at the time now, but society change. it was one _ at the time now, but society change. it was one of— at the time now, but society change. it was one of those situations that people _ it was one of those situations that people liked it when it began and eventually it went out of time and society— eventually it went out of time and society changed. and so it was moved

away from _ society changed. and so it was moved away from. initially, it started a new genre, _ away from. initially, it started a new genre, initially it gave a lot of young — new genre, initially it gave a lot of young women are career. society eventually _ of young women are career. society eventually decided it didn't want that and — eventually decided it didn't want that and moved on from it. but i do wonder. _ that and moved on from it. but i do wonder. we — that and moved on from it. but i do wonder, we are now living in a world where _ wonder, we are now living in a world where we _ wonder, we are now living in a world where we have reality tv shows, where _ where we have reality tv shows, where people are filmed in all sorts of circumstances on love island and so on _ of circumstances on love island and so on and _ of circumstances on love island and so on and so — of circumstances on love island and so on and so forth. i do wonder where — so on and so forth. i do wonder where the _ so on and so forth. i do wonder where the campaign is to stop tv like that — where the campaign is to stop tv like that. society changes and it was right— like that. society changes and it was right to go when it went. he was on bbc news — was right to go when it went. he was on bbc news on _ was right to go when it went. he was on bbc news on bbc _ was right to go when it went. he was on bbc news on bbc two _ was right to go when it went. he was on bbc news on bbc two will - was right to go when it went. he was on bbc news on bbc two will be - on bbc news on bbc two will be leaving us now.

hello. ukraine's president zelensky has arrived in canada on an unannounced visit to the country — the first since russia's full—scale invasion last year. more questions for the bbc — following a claim that russell brand exposed himself to a woman before laughing about it on his bbc radio two show. one of the world's most powerful media moguls, rupert murdoch, steps down as the head of fox and news corporation. the family empire now passes to his eldest son. and seven years after blasting off — a rocket will be delivering what scientists hope will be the secrets to how life began on earth.

hello. ukraine's president zelensky has arrived in canada on an unannounced visit to the country — the first since russia's full—scale invasion last year. the head of state and his wife were welcomed by prime ministerjustin trudeau. on thursday, president biden announced a new $325 million dollar aid package for kyiv from the united states, after meeting with mr zelensky at the white house. our correspondent, helena humphreys, has more details on what is — and isn't — included in the deal. when it comes to air defence this is something he'd been calling for and more ammunition to be fired from the

powerful high