those are all top stories. —— our top stories. it has just gone 6:30pm. a very good afternoon. now on bbc news, newscast. hello. it's adam in the studio. and it's chris in the studio. and, to keep us company, we're joined by ava santina from politics joe. hello again. and cleo watson. i mean, so many strings to your bow. author, radio documentary maker, adviser to two prime ministers, including borisjohnson. yeah, it's a litany - of failures, isn't it, really? i mean, the book did well. that's true. i've nearly finished my second one,

so yeah, you'll have to deal- with that in due course. it's about a general- election, but it's very much along the same themes, but it brings in political editors on coaches - going around the country and all kinds of... - is there a bonking political editor in it? i can't say that. but also you worked with alok sharma when he was president of cop26, the big climate change conference in glasgow. so i'm sure you've got lots of thoughts about net—zero as well. well, i mean... pause them because actually, the breaking news we got this afternoon, which everyjournalist went, "ooh!", when they got it, was that rupert murdoch is stepping down as chairman of his many companies that run his newspapers and tv channels. and we can chat about it now because we're joined by a former employee of rupert murdoch. it's kelvin mackenzie, who is editor of the sun. hi, kelvin. yeah. and fired by rupert and he invested in my businesses. so i've had 40 up and down years with him. yeah, you can say that again. did you think there was ever going to be a day where he'd kind of resign willingly and kind of quietly and orderly? or did you think maybe it would end

in a more kind of dramatic way? or maybe even he'd, like some fictional characters, die in thejob? i thought that was more likely. he did say to me on a number of occasions, "they'll have to carry me out with my boots on." and clearly, in his statement, you know, which is most unhelpful, on lachlan murdoch, he basically says, you know, i'm still going to have a day—to—day grip on the company, which actually is not good news for the shareholders, actually. because rupert, i know it's the opposite of what people think, he's actually a cautious guy, but then, when he makes up his mind, he really goes for it. and an enormously clever guy and an enormously cunning guy. so i was surprised. i was surprised that he was going to actually say he was handing over power but wasn't handing over power. but he has been brilliant. i mean, i don't think people really get the concept

of when he bought the times, i think in 1979, it was losing money there and it was all over the place. he has dropped £2 billion in the last 40 years before getting it to profitability about three years ago. no other entrepreneur, no other businessperson would have done that. they would have moved it on after ten years or 20 years. they would have stayed with it for a while. they were not losing money. nobody in business loses money for 40 years. he gritted his teeth, stayed with it. and because of its profitability today, thanks to the subscription world and not through the ad—funded world, it means that it's probably worth at least what he's lost in it and in the future, it's going to be worth a lot more. so for no other reason at all, the times remains a great product and likely to get stronger over the years, thanks to the fact that he gritted his teeth on it. kelvin, what is it that motivates rupert murdoch?

work, financial success, power. power. he loves power. he loves it. i mean, the fact is that politicians... being close to power? it's a strange combo of working out... first of all, there is one phrase which sums up rupert murdoch. it's "lower the lifeboat, i'm in." wives out the door, children out the door, executives out the door. he is an individual, right? he is a loner. that's something people don't kind of get. you know, he's a loner, actually, who's now gone, profoundly, quite deaf. so, inside, he lives entirely in the world of his own personality. so, if he thinks it's in his commercial interest to do something, he will do it, no matter what the price is.

if his happiness emotionally is not living with that lady, then that's the end of that. cleo, you've been on a lot of campaigns, notjust elections, but referendums. were the people running those campaigns kind of desperate to get rupert murdoch's endorsement, how did it work? well, i was actually going to ask kelvin a similar question, - because obviously everyone knows i how, in 1997, alastair campbell. and tony blair flew out to australia to try and get rupert murdoch - to back labour, and indeed he did, and they won- their landslide in 1997. and i think there's i still a lot of mystique anyway around politicians - that he is incredibly influential and you want the times and the sun and whoever else backing you, - but particularly with the rise | of more kind of well, a much more kind of diverse media landscape, i do you think that the murdoch empire still has that same - kind of clout? kelvin. no is the answer.

and actually, i would say that probably being true, this last certainly, this last 15 years, you know, certainly the last 13 years. kelvin, thank you. ava, working on politics joe, which is a very modern digital product, does all of this chat never mind sounding like from 40 years ago, does it sound like it's from 140 years ago to you? well, i think in the last sort of maybe five years, there's been this explosion, the age of information. and people are looking away from traditional legacy media and they're sort of looking around to kind of get a broader picture. so i don't think necessarily it's that people aren't picking up a newspaper any more. up a newspaper any more, why it doesn't have the influence. but actually, there's this move, this slight distrust that the public now have in the tabloids and in broadsheets and so they're looking around to video. i'm not saying they're looking to politichoe, necessarily, but they are looking online at a broader spectrum rather than what, you know...

not at papers that kelvin would have had the influence over years ago. right. let's talk about another big issue this week. clare hinted at it. chris, you're a big scoop about net zero. we've been talking about this for a couple of days now. where do you think things have have settled down now, particularly now that we've actually heard quite a lot from rishi sunak rather than your excellent leak about what rishi sunak was going to say? yeah. so, what's quite striking a couple of things. so we got a leak on tuesday afternoon, which we reported at 18:00 on tuesday night about what they were considering, what the prime minister was considering doing. we were very careful in our reporting of it that that's what he was considering. it wouldn't necessarily match with what he then said out loud, particularly after a leak where you might, as a prime minister, change as a result of the reaction that that leak generates. what was quite noticeable was, when he did stand up on thursday afternoon, pretty much he did say what had been leaked to us. but what i was struck by... wednesday afternoon. it's been a long week for you. i can tell. what did i say then? thursday.

which is today. what i thought was striking was that, yes, there was a lot of criticism from people with platforms and megaphones and pr departments, from the national trust to ford to e.0n, the energy company. but once the prime minister actually said what he said, it wasn't that the criticism went away, but i thought it was noticeably more nuanced. and now, you know, rishi sunak didn't know this was going to leak and he was mighty annoyed that it leaked. but he knew when he presented his ideas it would cause a row. and he knew it would cause a row in his own party, which it has, and then a wider row. but this is the new... this is the start of this new autumn strategy of them being more political with a big p, more aggressive leaning into stuff a bit more. and as he and those around him see it being a bit more him rather than steadying the ship over the last year dealing with the pandemic when he was chancellor, seeing him for the conservative

he thinks he's always been, but the circumstances up until now have constrained him from being. ava, one of the big things in the rishi sunak speech was i want to do politics differently and be more honest with people and i want more nuance. do you think he's got any chance of achieving that or even sticking with that as an idea? that was the point of the speech that frightened me, because that, to me, is an election speech. that is like snap—election incoming. and if you speak to any labour backbencher at the moment, they're really fired up about this. i mean, barry gardiner hasjust recalled the environmental audit committee, that's a select committee in parliament, and they're going to be scrutinising this legislation on monday — or proposed legislation. and the reason he's doing that is because he genuinely believes that the conservatives are now going to call a snap election in november, because i suppose it was a thought that a few of us had at the time, which is why on earth would rishi sunak suddenly do this big, grandiose speech out of nowhere, seemingly ripping up, you know, weeks or years of policy? for what good reason, other than to perhaps make him

more favourable to the electorate? well, what's wrong with that? i mean, you know, it's a popularity contest, isn't it, politics? he wants to win an election and there's going to be an election in the next, you know, year—ish plus or minus a few months. yeah. i think that, you know, being a stickler for parliamentary procedure, i would say that should have been introduced in the commons, and mp5 should have been allowed to scrutinise it properly. claire, what's your, as a former insider, a professional, somebody who's worked on many speeches and roll—outs of things like this, what's your review of how this week went? well, obviously chris has... ruined it. ,,ruined it, but in an ideal world, they'd have had a few days to... everyone's talking about pitch rolling, but that is _ the term they see getting everyone ready, softening the ground. - speak to the head of ford and e.0n and people like that. you'd get all these businesses sorted, you get your own -

party squared off. although i do kind of admire that he doesn't seem that concerned i actually about the different wings of his party, and i think that's quite refreshing. | i think we're all quite tired - of the party system where leaders are constantly having to pander to one side or the other- and hold their coalition together. they'd have had much. more time to scrutinise exactly what they said. so he might not have i got into meat taxes and seven bins and so on if they'd been able - to really scrutinise exactly what they were saying. and obviously, he'd get to polish the speech that he gave - as much as possible. he'd have had ministers ready to go out and give interviews _ and basically get everybody prepared, including the ccc and lord deben, to make sure exactly and maybe put in a call- to alok sharma, who i know you're speaking to later, who's in new york and l you're speaking to later, | who's in new york and... wake him up in the middle of the night. yeah, exactly. just to soften the blow, because as chris said, i the leak was kind of the worst bit. and then when he started talking, it does feel like l he's had an opportunity|

to explain himself a bit. and the main thing is he's taken a position here. - what still confuses me after a couple of days and chris, maybe you can help me out with this, is that the whole theme of rishi sunak�*s speech was, "oh, i've got to be honest with people about the hard choices," which normally sounds like, "oh, your bills are going to go up, or you're going to pay more tax or you're going to get less nice things." he then is sort of delaying a target for something and like watering down, in some people's words, the targets, among other things. that's not being honest about a hard choice, is it? that makes it easier. so where is the hard choice and the honesty here? well, i suppose the hard choice element was that he knew it was going to provoke a row. a hard choice for him. well, he spent the last year, for understandable from his perspective, party management reasons not provoking rows, because if you are running a party that's just had a civil war for pretty much the entirety of the calendar year before, then the first thing you've got to do is prevent that happening again. so, he spent a year avoiding those wherever he could to the point where any flash point that was going to arise in the commons, mps were called in, various sort

of compromises were made and it never came to it. it was all about hosing down even the merest flicker of a flame, you know. and so you've got to the point in the last six months where there aren't people like me on the telly every night saying, "ooh, i wonder "if the government is going to last the next week," which we were doing throughout 2022, because the answer to it is "it will." you know, that's a kind of necessary baseline, if you like, for a party to be able to start, you know, campaigning and making a pitch. but look at the polls. it doesn't look like it's remotely sufficient. so now, the strategy in downing street is "we've got "to do a bit more." rishi sunak actually said there was going to be more to come when i'm going to of the country and i'm going to tell you more hard truths and make tough decisions. any clues about what other things are on his list? i've been trying to find this out. the first and the most obvious one, because the government is not offering a straight answer to this

particular question at the moment, is hs2, the high—speed rail line, and whether the second phase of it, birmingham to manchester, the line between those two cities, goes ahead on the current time frame or even goes ahead at all. and at the moment, ministers just simply will not answer those questions. so that is there, the hint that is coming out of government seems to be a timing issue. they keep talking about phasing, which is sort of whitehall language for delay. so let's see. so that's one. the other one is the european convention on human rights. i'm not saying... we know what the policy is at the moment, it is to stay within it, and if a party in government was to advocate withdrawal or an attempted withdrawal, it would be mighty controversial. brexit mark ii, as somebody described it to me. it is written into all sorts of bits of legislation, not least the good friday agreement in northern ireland. but there are some conservatives who would love to see that happen. so, those two things i'll throw out there. who knows, by the way... i think the hs2 question they're going to have to answer, and it looks like they are on the move on that one. echr is more of a question mark. so they are just two of a few of the things that would have, ithink,

depending on exactly how far you went as a party, the same capacity to cause one of these rows as we have seen this week, that discombobulates and forces labour to work out where it's going to be and grabs the agenda and grabs those headlines that will make the press digest in downing street and all of that. and would be a part of, or a further case study on the sort of more muscular things that they are keen to do. well, ava, we will find out pretty soon if your prediction of a november election this year is going to come true. thank you very much. good job you just said it in private and not on tv in a podcast! at least conference season will be a doddle, so that'll be nice for you all, won't it? andrea, thank you very much, too. let's chat now to sir alok sharma, who was president of the cop26 climate change conference held in glasgow in 2021, but he is currently in new york for another climate conference. hello, alok. hi, adam, great to be on. thank you so much for inviting me. welcome back. a bit of transatlantic action

on newscast tonight. so, you are at this climate action conference. what's it been like being there as a british person surrounded by lots of, presumably, climate action people as the uk seems to be taking maybe a bit less action on the climate? the uk actually has been a leader on climate action, certainly historically, and it is the case that we have decarbonised the economy faster than any other g7 nation in recent years. over the time that i did cop, and the work i'm doing now, people do ask in other governments, how is it that the uk has managed to decarbonise so quickly? what are the lessons to be learned? so that, of course, is very positive. i think the reaction in terms of...with the prime minister's speech, i think it was a combination of concern and, actually, puzzlement. they have seen the uk lead on this issue over a long period of time, and i think they want us

to continue to lead. i mean, we've talked about this previously, adam. the uk, because we showed ambition ourselves domestically, going into cop26, we were able to get other countries to act. i personally sat there with ministers, leaders from 620 nations, and we did manage to go from 30% of the global economy covered by a net—zero target to 90%. we got commitments from business. all of that was possible because we ourselves were ambitious and we had shown ambition. and i think in some of the conversations i had, there was this sort of concern that, was this the precursor to further taking the foot off the pedal? so what i think everybody wants to see and hear is a positive message, a positive vision. the prime minister said he is going to cop28. i really welcome that. i think it will be great for him to set out a positive vision about how the uk

will continue to lead in this area. you say "concern". i'm trying to get a gauge of how concerned people are about this. is that like, "ooh, have i burnt the toast?" or is it, "ooh, the house is burning down" level of concern? which end of the scale? well, it certainly isn't "the toast is burned." naturally, what happens once you have done a cop, people see that perhaps you are not able to do as much because you're not in that position. but nevertheless, the uk retains that leadership. we have fantastic diplomats around the world, great civil servants in the uk doing this work. so there was pretty serious concerns and some pretty frank views expressed to me around the direction of travel. that's why i think it is important that further messages that come out of the government are positive, they are demonstrating that the uk is going to continue to lead.

and that we are going to continue to be forward—looking as a nation on this issue. "pretty frank expressions of views", you said there, sir alok. that usually, translated, means people were absolutely furious. i wonder who these people were. well, the conversations i've had were private conversations. just to say that a range of views were expressed. it ranges from quite a lot of concern to, actually, puzzlement, where people are trying to understand where the uk is. are we still in a leadership position? and, you know, what we do absolutely matters. we are one of the biggest economies in the world. here at the un, we are a permanent member of the security council. people respect the uk and they want to see us to continue to lead on this agenda. has brand britain taken a hit this week? i think it has been

tough for brand britain. it has been tough here for brand britain here at the climate ambition summit. but we just have to now pull ourselves, pull the socks up and demonstrate that we still care about this issue and that we are willing to lead. are delaying some of these policies actually— are delaying some of these policies actually adds extra cost. they brought — actually adds extra cost. they brought out a report previously on the climate change committee saying that if_ the climate change committee saying that if the _ the climate change committee saying that if the phase—out state was 2035, — that if the phase—out state was 2035, it — that if the phase—out state was 2035, it would mean billions extra in terms _ 2035, it would mean billions extra in terms of— 2035, it would mean billions extra in terms of gusts, ultimately for consumers. you will also see the second—hand market, which then helps to drive _ second—hand market, which then helps to drive down the price of electric vehicles, — to drive down the price of electric vehicles, develop at a slower rate. -- of— vehicles, develop at a slower rate. -- of costs — vehicles, develop at a slower rate. —— of costs. we may not get you price — —— of costs. we may not get you price parity— —— of costs. we may not get you price parity between electric vehicles _ price parity between electric vehicles and petrol and diesel as quickly —

vehicles and petrol and diesel as quickly. there is one other issue which _ quickly. there is one other issue which is — quickly. there is one other issue which is around those folks who are currently _ which is around those folks who are currently training to be charged point _ currently training to be charged point engineers or people looking to train to— point engineers or people looking to train to install heat pumps, if you are irr— train to install heat pumps, if you are in that — train to install heat pumps, if you are in that position now, you must be thinking, — are in that position now, you must be thinking, and i making the right decision— be thinking, and i making the right decision about the career i want to pursue? _ decision about the career i want to pursue? all— decision about the career i want to pursue? all i am saying to you is that i_ pursue? all i am saying to you is that i think— pursue? all i am saying to you is that i think this has not been great in terms _ that i think this has not been great in terms of— that i think this has not been great in terms of the signals to the auto sector— in terms of the signals to the auto sector particularly, and we've seen the reaction, and from a cost point of view, _ the reaction, and from a cost point of view, i_ the reaction, and from a cost point of view, i think it ultimately ends up of view, i think it ultimately ends up adding — of view, i think it ultimately ends up adding extra cost to the consumers, and thirdly, electorally, my opinion — consumers, and thirdly, electorally, my opinion again, i am not sure this will necessarily help. it my opinion again, i am not sure this will necessarily help.— will necessarily help. it sounds like very politely, _ will necessarily help. it sounds like very politely, you - will necessarily help. it sounds like very politely, you are - will necessarily help. it sounds i like very politely, you are saying he has spectacularly missed read the room and miss with the politics. i room and miss with the politics. i am no longer in government unable to speak— am no longer in government unable to speak out— am no longer in government unable to speak out on_ am no longer in government unable to speak out on these issues. ijust waht _ speak out on these issues. ijust want to—

speak out on these issues. ijust want to go— speak out on these issues. ijust want to go back to this issue of cost _ want to go back to this issue of cost i— want to go back to this issue of cost ialso— want to go back to this issue of cost. i also welcome the fact that there _ cost. i also welcome the fact that there is— cost. i also welcome the fact that there is a — cost. i also welcome the fact that there is a boiler upgrade scheme and ithink— there is a boiler upgrade scheme and ithihk the _ there is a boiler upgrade scheme and i think the grant is going over to 7.5 thousand pounds to fit a heat pump, _ 7.5 thousand pounds to fit a heat pump. and — 7.5 thousand pounds to fit a heat pump, and that is great, i welcome that _ pump, and that is great, i welcome that but _ pump, and that is great, i welcome that. but the current value of that bond _ that. but the current value of that bond is _ that. but the current value of that bond is £450 million. in the six months — bond is £450 million. in the six months to— bond is £450 million. in the six months to march of this year, the government provided £40 billion of support— government provided £40 billion of support two households, two businesses, to help them manage the cost of— businesses, to help them manage the cost of pills. —— of that fund. i think— cost of pills. —— of that fund. i think that _ cost of pills. —— of that fund. i think that was the right thing to do. think that was the right thing to do but— think that was the right thing to do. but imagine if we had invested in that— do. but imagine if we had invested in that sort— do. but imagine if we had invested in that sort of scale in prior years. _ in that sort of scale in prior years, helping people to interlace their homes and helping them to make energy— their homes and helping them to make energy efficiency measures, helping them to— energy efficiency measures, helping them to upgrade their heating. we would _ them to upgrade their heating. we would now— them to upgrade their heating. we would now be facing lower bills, and also be _ would now be facing lower bills, and also be entering at the same time

that less — also be entering at the same time that less energy was being used, and consequently, would see less emissions. the decisions that governments take have consequences for the _ governments take have consequences for the long term.— for the long term. ebony you had been a government _ for the long term. ebony you had been a government minister, - for the long term. ebony you had | been a government minister, you could have influenced that, and said oh, hang on. —— if only you had been. i oh, hang on. -- if only you had been. ., , oh, hang on. -- if only you had been-_ but - oh, hang on. -- if only you had been._ but you - oh, hang on. -- if only you had | been._ but you won't oh, hang on. -- if only you had i been._ but you won't in been. i had been. but you won't in that period. _ been. i had been. but you won't in that period, when _ been. i had been. but you won't in that period, when decisions - been. i had been. but you won't in| that period, when decisions weren't being made about, cancelling insulation schemes, done years before, they could have done that years ago. let me go back to this point on the evs. i was business secretary when that was announced in november 2020, where we had a ten—point plan for the green industrial revolution. i had lots of conversations with the auto sector and they welcomed the clarity on the 2030 date. we were also providing funding in terms of rolling out charging stations

and with giga—factories, et cetera. so, even at that point, it was very clear that the auto sector was accepting of this direction of 2030. and that's what they have also said more recently and, of course, subsequent to this speech. and also, i remember you are veggie, aren't you? i do not eat meat. oh, what's the difference? well, i will occasionally eat some fish. 0k. would you urge more of us to become vegetarian? because actually, you could urge people to eat less meat instead of taxing meat, couldn't you? not that we are going to tax meat now, because that's another thing that has been pre—cancelled. i think we may have discussed this previously. my view is that this is down to people's personal choice. you decide what makes sense for you. and i have never been someone who says we should be coercing people and sort of telling them that this is exactly what they ought to be doing.

i have always been someone... we talked about me being in government. whenever i was in government, i was always very keen on a carrot rather than a stick approach. it's up to every individual to look to see what lifestyle choices they make. but the one thing we do know is there are a lot of people who care about this issue. and they will come to their own conclusions on this. the only other thing that i would just say on this is that the issue on taxing meat, et cetera, none of the stuff was obviously in the net—zero strategy. this wasn't government policy. alok, thank you very much for filling us in and safe travels. thank you so much. chris, thanks to you, too, for keeping me company in the studio. thank you, it's good to be back in a tv studio on a thursday night. and, if you like watching us, you can listen to us every day now, because we're seven days a week, on bbc sounds. and we'll be back here on your tv screens very soon. bye— bye! newscast. newscast from the bbc.

hello. in many parts of the uk, cloud amounts have been increasing during today, signalling a change for the rest of the weekend. some warmer but wetter and windier weather on the way. it's all thanks to a weather system that contains the remnants of what was hurricane nigel. certainly not a hurricane any more but providing an injection of tropical moisture into this area of low pressure. some very heavy rain across some western areas as we head through tonight. further pulses of rain returning to the south west of england and wales later on, quite windy for a time, particularly around western coasts and much, much milder than it was last night. by the end of the night, we will be between 10 and 16 degrees. sunday morning starting on a mild note but with low pressure firmly in charge, a couple of different frontal

systems which will provide some outbreaks of very heavy rain. this rain tending to affect western and northern parts of the country, so western england, wales, northern ireland, western scotland seeing some outbreaks of rain. further south and east, more in the way of dry weather, some spells of sunshine and, actually, with the southerly winds it is going to feel pretty warm in the south—east corner. large swathes actually of england and wales up to 20 or 21 degrees, even further north could see 18, 19, 20 across some northern parts of scotland. as we head through sunday evening, this band of very heavy, squally rain pushing across south—west england and wales. northern ireland very wet for a time and that rain really setting in across scotland, perhaps enough rain for some flooding and disruption. gusts of wind of 50 or 60 mph. through sunday night into monday, that frontal system sweeps away eastwards but low pressure will still be firmly in charge of our weather, so for monday, yes, there will be spells of sunshine, i think parts of england and wales will stay dry but northern ireland and scotland seeing some pretty hefty showers, it stays quite windy. temperatures of 15 to 22 degrees, so broadly speaking above the norm

for the time of year. then as we head towards the middle part of the week we will have to keep a close eye on this one. a developing area of low pressure. huge uncertainty aboutjust how deep this low might become, exactly where it will move across the uk, but the chance for some very heavy rain and possibly some very strong winds around the middle part of the week. broadly speaking, a very unsettled week ahead.

live from london. this is bbc news. following friday's missile strike on russia's black sea fleet headquarters in occupied crimea — ukraine's military intelligence chief claims russian commanders are among those injured. help is here — the red cross delivers seventy tonnes of aid to nagorno karabakh for the first time since azerbaijan captured the disputed territory five days ago. and in the uk — borisjohnson urges the government not to scale back plans to build the hs2 high speed rail link — amid speculation part of the route could be axed.

hello, i'm rich preson. ukraine says russian commanders were among those injured in friday's missile strikes on the headquarters of russia's black sea fleet in occupied crimea. the building in sevastopol appears to have been hit by at least two missiles, causing extensive damage. there are reports that the missiles used were storm shadow missiles — supplied by britain and france. it comes as reports in us media suggest america is planning to give ukraine more advanced, longer—range missiles to help with its ongoing counteroffensive against russia. the international red cross says it's managed to deliver seventy tonnes of relief aid to the disputed enclave nagorno karabakh — for the first time since azerbaijan captured the territory in a lightning operation five days ago. tens of thousands of armenians have sought refuge

in the main city stepanakert, where food and medicine