the parties are gearing up for a fight. the prime minister setting out a dramatic change in policy. we seem to out a dramatic change in policy. - seem to have defaulted to an approach which will impose on acceptable costs on hard—pressed british families. acceptable costs on hard-pressed british families.— acceptable costs on hard-pressed british families. delaying net-zero taraets. british families. delaying net-zero targets- we _ british families. delaying net-zero targets. we have _ british families. delaying net-zero targets. we have not _ british families. delaying net-zero targets. we have not got - british families. delaying net-zero targets. we have not got a - british families. delaying net-zero targets. we have not got a policy i targets. we have not got a policy ackaue targets. we have not got a policy package to _ targets. we have not got a policy package to meet _ targets. we have not got a policy package to meet the _ targets. we have not got a policy package to meet the legal - targets. we have not got a policy i package to meet the legal challenge the country has set.— the country has set. while keir starmer was — the country has set. while keir starmer was in _ the country has set. while keir starmer was in europe - the country has set. while keir starmer was in europe trying l the country has set. while keir| starmer was in europe trying to the country has set. while keir- starmer was in europe trying to show he can have good relationships with eu leaders. the party promises a different approach to climate change. different approach to climate chance. ~ ., change. when the government fli - -flo -s change. when the government flip-flaps and _ change. when the government flip-flops and changes - change. when the government flip-flops and changes its - change. when the government| flip-flops and changes its mind change. when the government. flip-flops and changes its mind all flip—flops and changes its mind all the time, it is difficult for businesses to make those

investments.— businesses to make those investments. _, . , ., investments. the conference season is now under — investments. the conference season is now under way- — investments. the conference season is now under way. and _ investments. the conference season is now under way. and with - investments. the conference season is now under way. and with more . is now under way. and with more by—elections around the corner, the main question this morning is, has the starting gun being fired on the next general election? on behalf of the government this week, it's grant shapps, the new defence secretary. hot—footing it from his party's conference in bournemouth, the lib dem leader sir ed davey is here to talk to us. and for labour, we'll talk live to darrenjones, the brand new shadow chief secretary to the treasury. hello. well, you'll see i'm not laura. she couldn't be here today so i've stepped in. good morning wherever you're watching across the uk. do let me introduce today's panel. we have racheljohnson, broadcaster and journalist.

yanis varoufakis, left—wing economist and greece's finance minister during that country's credit crisis eight years ago. and craig mackinlay, conservative mp and chair of the net zero scrutiny group. good morning. thank you for being here. we are going to look at some of the front pages. the possible fate of h52 leads some of the front pages this morning. the telegraph says, "axe looms over hs2 after £8bn cost shock", the observer goes with "sunak pushes to axe hs2 link ahead of tory conference". and the indy leads with, "now tory big beasts turn on pm's insane plan to scrap hs2". but the mail goes with something different: "pm will not axe triple lock on pensions", it says. and the times says, "sunak revives plans to slash inheritance tax".

something that is not confirmed by downing street, i should say. is it something, craig mckinlay, you would like to see ahead of the next election?— like to see ahead of the next election? . ., like to see ahead of the next election? . . ., election? yeah, i have written a number of— election? yeah, i have written a number of papers _ election? yeah, i have written a number of papers about - election? yeah, i have written a - number of papers about inheritance tax. just the inherent unfairness about it. ivor was thought if you have cash in the bank you have spent —— | have cash in the bank you have spent —— i have always thought if you have cash in the bank... i would like capital gains tax, whatever it might be, you pay capital gains tax. flint? be, you pay capital gains tax. only 496 of households _ be, you pay capital gains tax. only 496 of households pay. _ be, you pay capital gains tax. only 4% of households pay. you have basically got a married couple with a threshold of about £1 million. you have to have _ a threshold of about £1 million. you have to have a _ a threshold of about £1 million. 7m, have to have a descendant to give that too. it is quite complicated. that is the inherent problem with inheritance tax. you have definitely got a north—south divide. people in the south can pay inheritance tax through no reason other than they have got a property in the south of the country rather than the north. racheljohnson, that is floated in the sunday times. speculation not

confirmed by downing street. other policies have been floated this week. a—level reform, potentially a smoking ban. does it feel like a general election is in the air? the front page — general election is in the air? the front page of _ general election is in the air? the front page of the mail on sunday, when _ front page of the mail on sunday, when rishi — front page of the mail on sunday, when rishi sunak is not flip—flopping now, it becomes the splash _ flip—flopping now, it becomes the splash of— flip—flopping now, it becomes the splash of a sunday newspaper, which -ives splash of a sunday newspaper, which gives some _ splash of a sunday newspaper, which gives some indication that he does seem _ gives some indication that he does seem to _ gives some indication that he does seem to he — gives some indication that he does seem to be changing his mind on a lot of— seem to be changing his mind on a lot of big _ seem to be changing his mind on a lot of big policies. my question is, if he _ lot of big policies. my question is, if he is _ lot of big policies. my question is, if he is setting out the battleground for a general election, how is— battleground for a general election, how is he _ battleground for a general election, how is he going to take the tory party— how is he going to take the tory party with— how is he going to take the tory party with him? obviously he wants to take _ party with him? obviously he wants to take the — party with him? obviously he wants to take the fight to the opposition. but we _ to take the fight to the opposition. but we have seen the big beasts lining _ but we have seen the big beasts lining up— but we have seen the big beasts lining up to oppose his new lines on hsz lining up to oppose his new lines on h52 and _ lining up to oppose his new lines on h52 and net—zero. we saw alok sharma and 2ac— h52 and net—zero. we saw alok sharma and zac goldsmith on net—zero, boris johnson _ and zac goldsmith on net—zero, boris johnson and — and zac goldsmith on net—zero, boris johnson and david cameron opposing what he's _ johnson and david cameron opposing what he's doing hsz. he will have an internal— what he's doing hsz. he will have an internal war— what he's doing hsz. he will have an internal war as well as an external war~ _ internal war as well as an external war~ so _ internal war as well as an external war. so good luck to rishi. yunus, welcome to _ war. so good luck to rishi. yunus, welcome to you. _ war. so good luck to rishi. yunus, welcome to you. a _ war. so good luck to rishi. yunus, welcome to you. a big _ war. so good luck to rishi. yunus, welcome to you. a big week - war. so good luck to rishi. yunus, i welcome to you. a big week because of the pushback of some of those

green commitments.— of the pushback of some of those green commitments. what do you make of it? it green commitments. what do you make of it? it takes — green commitments. what do you make of it? it takes a — green commitments. what do you make of it? it takes a very _ green commitments. what do you make of it? it takes a very special _ of it? it takes a very special combination— of it? it takes a very special combination of— of it? it takes a very special. combination of incompetence of it? it takes a very special - combination of incompetence and cynicism — combination of incompetence and cynicism to — combination of incompetence and cynicism to managed _ combination of incompetence and cynicism to managed to _ combination of incompetence and cynicism to managed to unite - combination of incompetence and cynicism to managed to unite the| combination of incompetence and i cynicism to managed to unite the car industry— cynicism to managed to unite the car industry and — cynicism to managed to unite the car industry and the _ cynicism to managed to unite the car industry and the greens _ cynicism to managed to unite the car industry and the greens against - cynicism to managed to unite the car industry and the greens against you. i industry and the greens against you. rishi sunak— industry and the greens against you. rishi sunak has _ industry and the greens against you. rishi sunak has demonstrated - industry and the greens against you. rishi sunak has demonstrated that. i rishi sunak has demonstrated that. why do— rishi sunak has demonstrated that. why do you — rishi sunak has demonstrated that. why do you say— rishi sunak has demonstrated that. why do you say it— rishi sunak has demonstrated that. why do you say it is— rishi sunak has demonstrated that. why do you say it is cynical? - rishi sunak has demonstrated that. why do you say it is cynical? well, i why do you say it is cynical? well, because it — why do you say it is cynical? well, because it is _ why do you say it is cynical? well, because it is very _ why do you say it is cynical? well, because it is very clear _ why do you say it is cynical? well, because it is very clear that - why do you say it is cynical? well, because it is very clear that this i because it is very clear that this was the — because it is very clear that this was the result _ because it is very clear that this was the result of— because it is very clear that this was the result of the _ because it is very clear that this was the result of the uxbridge i was the result of the uxbridge by-election _ was the result of the uxbridge by—election in _ was the result of the uxbridge by—election in what _ was the result of the uxbridge by—election in what is - was the result of the uxbridge . by—election in what is happening was the result of the uxbridge - by—election in what is happening in the netherlands— by—election in what is happening in the netherlands where _ by—election in what is happening in the netherlands where there - by—election in what is happening in the netherlands where there is - by—election in what is happening in the netherlands where there is a l the netherlands where there is a backlash— the netherlands where there is a backlash from _ the netherlands where there is a backlash from the _ the netherlands where there is a backlash from the climate - the netherlands where there is a | backlash from the climate policy. segments — backlash from the climate policy. segments of _ backlash from the climate policy. segments of the _ backlash from the climate policy. segments of the population. - backlash from the climate policy. segments of the population. a i segments of the population. a desperate _ segments of the population. a desperate prime _ segments of the population. a desperate prime minister- segments of the population. a desperate prime minister is i segments of the population. a i desperate prime minister is trying to appeal— desperate prime minister is trying to appeal to— desperate prime minister is trying to appeal to a _ desperate prime minister is trying to appeal to a particular _ desperate prime minister is trying to appeal to a particular clientele, destroying — to appeal to a particular clientele, destroying all _ to appeal to a particular clientele, destroying all the _ to appeal to a particular clientele, destroying all the capability- to appeal to a particular clientele, destroying all the capability that l destroying all the capability that tory governments _ destroying all the capability that tory governments have - destroying all the capability that tory governments have tried i destroying all the capability that tory governments have tried toi destroying all the capability that i tory governments have tried to build up tory governments have tried to build up regarding — tory governments have tried to build up regarding commitments- tory governments have tried to build up regarding commitments to - up regarding commitments to net-zero _ up regarding commitments to net-zero. ~ up regarding commitments to net-zero— up regarding commitments to net-zero. . ., ., ., net-zero. ok. we are going to get into that of — net-zero. ok. we are going to get into that of this _ net-zero. ok. we are going to get into that of this morning _ net-zero. ok. we are going to get into that of this morning with i net-zero. ok. we are going to get into that of this morning with you | into that of this morning with you on the panel and with our guest today. rishi sunak spent nearly a year

steadying the ship after liz truss's stormy days in office, but now with an election looming he's coming up with a bunch of ideas to try to show you what he really stands for. earlier this week he delayed green targets set out by his old boss borisjohnson when he was pm, and it looks like the hs2 rail project could be scaled back again. the original plan would have connected london to birmingham and then leeds and manchester. in 2021, then leeds and manchester. in 2021, the section from birmingham to leeds was cancelled. they may hardly line might end in west london rather than going all the way to euston. and now the birmingham to manchester bit is in doubt as well. so what is rishi sunak�*s plan? let's ask grant shapps. he's just been made defence secretary, and in the last few years he's been transport, business and net zero. what else, grant shapps — anything we've forgotten? when you are transport secretary in 2022, you launched the most recent plan for hs2, which would have taken

it all the way to manchester. he is the plan you've laid down their going to be delivered in full? morning. the first thing to say is i am reading a lot of this in the newspapers. but there have been no announcements other than the change in net—zero, which does not change the outcome, which is 2050 still. but on hs2 we do have to respond to the budgets was that we have been hit notjust by coronavirus, but by the war in ukraine. any responsible government looks at that and says, does they still stack up for what the country requires in terms of where it is ending its resources and the sequencing? it where it is ending its resources and the sequencing?— the sequencing? it doesn't sound could then? _ the sequencing? it doesn't sound could then? i'm _ the sequencing? it doesn't sound could then? i'm not _ the sequencing? it doesn't sound could then? i'm not actually i the sequencing? it doesn't sound | could then? i'm not actually prove issue any decision. _ could then? i'm not actually prove issue any decision. -- _ could then? i'm not actually prove issue any decision. -- i _ could then? i'm not actually prove issue any decision. -- i am - could then? i'm not actually prove issue any decision. -- i am not i issue any decision. —— i am not actually privy to any decision. you were ut actually privy to any decision. you were put up _ actually privy to any decision. you were put up by — actually privy to any decision. you were put up by the government to talk about the common's plan today. when you asked for a steer, what do they say? i when you asked for a steer, what do the sa ? .., when you asked for a steer, what do the sa ? .. ., when you asked for a steer, what do the sa ? ., ., ., ,, ., they say? i came on to talk about defence. they say? i came on to talk about defence- l — they say? i came on to talk about defence. i can _ they say? i came on to talk about defence. i can certainly _

they say? i came on to talk about defence. i can certainly cover- they say? i came on to talk about | defence. i can certainly cover this. look, yes, the country has invested hugely in faster infrastructure for a particularly hs2 and travel. and there is a large part of it substantially built. i think the sequencing of what happens next is a perfectly legitimate question. when we have been hit with the enormous costs of coronavirus, £400 billion. probably another hundred billion pounds from the war in ukraine. and people rightly will say, there is a balance of money that needs to be spent on health, education, defence and many other things. at what speed do we want to progress various different projects? perfectly proper and responsible. and, by the way, i think a serious comment looking at the long—term future makes these decisions, even when sometimes they are not popular at that moment in the interest of the country at large. the interest of the country at [an e. the interest of the country at larae. �* , the interest of the country at lane, �* , the interest of the country at larae. ~ , , the interest of the country at lare. . , , ., large. ok. as i said, it is not lookin: large. ok. as i said, it is not looking good. _ large. ok. as i said, it is not looking good, is _ large. ok. as i said, it is not looking good, is eight, i large. ok. as i said, it is not looking good, is eight, when large. ok. as i said, it is not- looking good, is eight, when the prime minister doesn't guarantee it will go to manchester? the chancellor said just three days ago

the costs are totally out of control. ~ ., , the costs are totally out of control. ~ . , ..,, , control. we have seen the costs accelerate _ control. we have seen the costs accelerate a _ control. we have seen the costs accelerate a lot, _ control. we have seen the costs accelerate a lot, of _ control. we have seen the costs accelerate a lot, of course. i control. we have seen the costs| accelerate a lot, of course. what are they now _ accelerate a lot, of course. what are they now then? _ accelerate a lot, of course. what are they now then? inflation i accelerate a lot, of course. what are they now then? inflation has| are they now then? inflation has been art are they now then? inflation has been part of _ are they now then? inflation has been part of that. _ are they now then? inflation has been part of that. there - are they now then? inflation has been part of that. there are i are they now then? inflation has i been part of that. there are various estimates. the government wants to check on the costs now post the inflationary picture out of the war inflationary picture out of the war in ukraine. but i have to say it would be irresponsible to simply spend the money, carry on as if nothing had changed, if there has been changed in that fiscal picture. having said that, we spent £33 billion on transport in the north alone since 2010. and we had plans to, for example, build east—west rail, a line between leeds and manchester. so hs2 is not the be all and end all. there are many other plans. i and end all. there are many other lans. ., ~ ., plans. i will talk about the line across the _ plans. i will talk about the line across the pennines _ plans. i will talk about the line across the pennines because l plans. i will talk about the line across the pennines because aj plans. i will talk about the line - across the pennines because a number of people say if you don't carry on with hs2 from birmingham to manchester, it makes the improvements across the impossible. let me come back to that. the chancellor told us the costs are totally out of control. does the

government accept some of the responsibility for the costs being out of control?— responsibility for the costs being out of control? there are a lot of thins out of control? there are a lot of things that _ out of control? there are a lot of things that would _ out of control? there are a lot of things that would have _ out of control? there are a lot of i things that would have contributed. inflation being primary amongst them, which is why we have worked so hard to try to ensure we can get inflation down. that means, by the way, one of the big things you do to stop inflation going higher is not continue to borrow money which is unaffordable, and therefore pushes up unaffordable, and therefore pushes up interest rates, and therefore adds to your debt costs. so, that is why it is important to take all of this. i why it is important to take all of this. , ., �* why it is important to take all of this. , . �* ., this. i understand. but at the government _ this. i understand. but at the government accepting - this. i understand. but at the i government accepting responsibility for the costs going up, or is it all external factors? for the costs going up, or is it all externalfactors? i for the costs going up, or is it all external factors?— for the costs going up, or is it all external factors? i was obviously in char: e external factors? i was obviously in charre of external factors? i was obviously in charge of this _ external factors? i was obviously in charge of this project. _ external factors? i was obviously in charge of this project. and - external factors? i was obviously in | charge of this project. and watching very carefully, what we saw a lot of the time were bids that had gone and increasing over a period of time, for example, because of environmental considerations, which made them more expensive to complete various different parts of the

project. i5 various different parts of the ro'ect. , ., various different parts of the ro'ect. , . ., .. , ,., project. is ligament accepting some responsibility _ project. is ligament accepting some responsibility for _ project. is ligament accepting some responsibility for the _ project. is ligament accepting some responsibility for the costs - project. is ligament accepting some responsibility for the costs going i responsibility for the costs going up? —— is the government accepting some responsible to? up? -- is the government accepting some responsible to?— some responsible to? governments take responsibility. _ some responsible to? governments take responsibility. for— some responsible to? governments take responsibility. for everything i take responsibility. for everything it does. things like an unexpected shockin it does. things like an unexpected shock in inflation due to the war and the energy crisis are beyond the government's job. and the energy crisis are beyond the government'sjob. which is now what we are responding to quite properly. the chairman of business london says, the general chopping and changing is a big reason why the costs have risen over the past decade. he is an example. the pause earlier this year at the work and euston. firms at to lay off or redeploy hundreds of workers. that costs money. redeploy hundreds of workers. that costs money-— costs money. every economist will tell ou costs money. every economist will tell you there _ costs money. every economist will tell you there is _ costs money. every economist will tell you there is a _ costs money. every economist will tell you there is a thing _ costs money. every economist will tell you there is a thing called i costs money. every economist will tell you there is a thing called a i tell you there is a thing called a sunk cost, where all this money is being spent. but he says, in that case we need to carry on spending regardless. that is not a responsible thing for a comment to do. i understand it is always easy for those who aren't having to make

the payoff between health, education, defence etc, tojust say, carry on spending as if there is more —— no tomorrow. we have to be more —— no tomorrow. we have to be more responsible. more -- no tomorrow. we have to be more responsible-— more responsible. have you not been resonsible more responsible. have you not been responsible until _ more responsible. have you not been responsible until now _ more responsible. have you not been responsible until now then? - more responsible. have you not been responsible until now then? yes, i more responsible. have you not beenj responsible until now then? yes, h52 responsible until now then? yes, hs2 runs that project, but a pub in a transporter was seated?- runs that project, but a pub in a transporter was seated? yes, the department _ transporter was seated? yes, the department for — transporter was seated? yes, the department for transport - transporter was seated? yes, the department for transport does i transporter was seated? yes, the i department for transport does that. but as i mentioned, we have seen very high global inflation in a way that no government could have predicted, adding to the costs. that is primarily what drives this. right. andy street, you will know him well, conservative mayor of the west midlands, he says, this would be a disaster for the country of birmingham to manchester does not go ahead. leaving us with the most expensive white elephant in uk history. i5 expensive white elephant in uk histo . , ., , ., ., history. is he wrong? first of all, the bit to birmingham... - history. is he wrong? first of all, the bit to birmingham... i - history. is he wrong? first of all, the bit to birmingham... i am i history. is he wrong? first of all, i the bit to birmingham... i am asking about manchester— the bit to birmingham... i am asking about manchester -- _ the bit to birmingham... i am asking about manchester -- birmingham i the bit to birmingham... i am asking about manchester -- birmingham to | about manchester —— birmingham to manchester. the about manchester -- birmingham to manchester-—

manchester. the first bid has not been constructed. _ manchester. the first bid has not been constructed. birmingham . manchester. the first bid has not| been constructed. birmingham to manchester is on a slower timetable. hang on a minute. you are not answering the point. andy street says if you don't go from birmingham to manchester it would be a disaster. i5 to manchester it would be a disaster. , to manchester it would be a disaster-— to manchester it would be a disaster. , g , disaster. is he right? my point is we are rather— disaster. is he right? my point is we are ratherjumping _ disaster. is he right? my point is we are ratherjumping the i disaster. is he right? my point is we are ratherjumping the gun i we are ratherjumping the gun because no decision has been made, no announcement has been made. we are talking off the back of stories that have been in the papers. although i am actually asking about the impact. how about another conservative? as we bring hs2 to manchester, the investment will bring communities together, create jobs, generate prosperity and opportunity across the north and midlands. you know who said that, didn't you? the midlands. you know who said that, didn't ou? ' ~ midlands. you know who said that, didn't you?— didn't you? the 96 billion is not about hs2- _ didn't you? the 96 billion is not about h52. that _ didn't you? the 96 billion is not about h52. that was _ didn't you? the 96 billion is not about h52. that was you. it i didn't you? the 96 billion is not about h52. that was you. it is l didn't you? the 96 billion is not i about h52. that was you. it is about the integrated _ about h52. that was you. it is about the integrated rail— about h52. that was you. it is about the integrated rail plan. _ about h52. that was you. it is about the integrated rail plan. and - about h52. that was you. it is about the integrated rail plan. and many. the integrated rail plan. and many other development in the north. as i've already mentioned, we have already spent record amounts on infrastructure in the north. it says as we bring _ infrastructure in the north. it says as we bring hs2 — infrastructure in the north. it says as we bring h52 to _ infrastructure in the north. it says as we bring h52 to manchester, i infrastructure in the north. it says i as we bring h52 to manchester, that as we bring hs2 to manchester, that is what you said? part as we bring h52 to manchester, that is what you said?— is what you said? part of that is hs2. a is what you said? part of that is hs2- a large — is what you said? part of that is h52. a large chunk _ is what you said? part of that is h52. a large chunk of _ is what you said? part of that is

h52. a large chunk of it - is what you said? part of that is h52. a large chunk of it is i is what you said? part of that is i h52. a large chunk of it is nothing hs2. a large chunk of it is nothing to do with hs2. the £96 billion is an integrated rail plan which does much more for birmingham, for the east midlands and up to leeds and across manchester. but east midlands and up to leeds and across manchester.— east midlands and up to leeds and across manchester. but if it doesn't to across manchester. but if it doesn't no ahead, across manchester. but if it doesn't go ahead. isn't _ across manchester. but if it doesn't go ahead, isn't it _ across manchester. but if it doesn't go ahead, isn't it logical— across manchester. but if it doesn't go ahead, isn't it logical then i across manchester. but if it doesn't go ahead, isn't it logical then to i go ahead, isn't it logical then to suggest the opposite of what you promised will happen, that cancelling hs2 to manchester means people in the north of england don't get the prosperity and the investment you personally promised them? i investment you personally promised them? ., �* ., ., investment you personally promised them? ., ., ., them? i don't agree with that at all. we them? i don't agree with that at all- we have _ them? i don't agree with that at all. we have done _ them? i don't agree with that at all. we have done so _ them? i don't agree with that at all. we have done so much i them? i don't agree with that at all. we have done so much to i them? i don't agree with that at i all. we have done so much to level up, including more expenditure on transport, particularly rail in the north, than any government previously. we are committed still to spending money on our infrastructure, particularly our rail infrastructure, which has a massive budget other than just hs2. how are you going to do that, across the pennines without hs2? the how are you going to do that, across the pennines without h52?_ the pennines without h52? the two thins are the pennines without h52? the two things are independent. _ the pennines without h52? the two things are independent. that i the pennines without h52? the two things are independent. that is - things are independent. that is effectively h53 across the pennines.

you have to make decisions on whether you're going to invite —— invest in local transport schemes, which may be helpfulfor invest in local transport schemes, which may be helpful for people commuting. obviously the large things like hsz, the biggest construction project in europe, soaking up a lot of that money. any government has to make those decisions. i was involved previously. decisions. i was involved previously-— decisions. i was involved reviousl. , , ., decisions. i was involved reviousl. ,, ., , previously. this is what your bill said when _ previously. this is what your bill said when you — previously. this is what your bill said when you laid _ previously. this is what your bill said when you laid it _ previously. this is what your bill said when you laid it down - previously. this is what your bill said when you laid it down for. previously. this is what your bill. said when you laid it down for the un transport secretary. part of it will be used for northern powerhouse rail, services between leeds, manchester and liverpool. people in the midlands and the north now say that trans— pennine improvements will not be able to happen if hs2 birmingham to manchester doesn't go ahead. are you saying it can? fine. ahead. are you saying it can? one, no decision — ahead. are you saying it can? one, no decision on _ ahead. are you saying it can? one, no decision on h52 _ ahead. are you saying it can? one, no decision on h52 yet. _ ahead. are you saying it can? one, no decision on h52 yet. two, - ahead. are you saying it can? our no decision on hsz yet. two, we are no decision on hs2 yet. two, we are not talking about the northern powerhouse rail. but not talking about the northern powerhouse rail.— not talking about the northern powerhouse rail. but the two are linked. powerhouse rail. but the two are linked- all _ powerhouse rail. but the two are linked. all railway _ powerhouse rail. but the two are linked. all railway lines _ powerhouse rail. but the two are linked. all railway lines are - powerhouse rail. but the two are | linked. all railway lines are linked ultimately- _ linked. all railway lines are linked ultimately. that _ linked. all railway lines are linked ultimately. that is _ linked. all railway lines are linked ultimately. that is not _ linked. all railway lines are linked ultimately. that is not what - linked. all railway lines are linked ultimately. that is not what we i linked. all railway lines are linked | ultimately. that is not what we are talking about here and it is conflating two separate issues. pare conflating two separate issues. are ou sa inc conflating two separate issues. are you saying the improvements can go ahead on the northern powerhouse

rail even if hs2 manchester —— birmingham to manchester doesn't? you will forgive me, i'm not a transport secretary. the point i'm trying to make is that every government has to look at the overall budgets and then make serious decisions which go beyond the sort of back—and—forth like this, to say, is this affordable under current circumstances? i'm absolutely confident, for example that when those statements were made, no one knew we would be in a war in europe right now. all of the consequences, all of the concert —— cost and all of the inflation. any comment that doesn't go back and look at it is crazy. if comment that doesn't go back and look at it is crazy.— look at it is crazy. if you do scrap it it would _ look at it is crazy. if you do scrap it it would free _ look at it is crazy. if you do scrap it it would free up _ look at it is crazy. if you do scrap it it would free up money - look at it is crazy. if you do scrap it it would free up money for- look at it is crazy. if you do scrap it it would free up money for tax| it it would free up money for tax cuts before the next election. is that what is going on? ida. cuts before the next election. is that what is going on? no, again i am not here _ that what is going on? no, again i am not here to _ that what is going on? no, again i am not here to announce - that what is going on? no, again i am not here to announce a - that what is going on? no, again i. am not here to announce a budgetary for the next election. you am not here to announce a budgetary for the next election.— for the next election. you are in cabinet and _ for the next election. you are in cabinet and part _ for the next election. you are in cabinet and part of— for the next election. you are in cabinet and part of these - cabinet and part of these discussions. i cabinet and part of these discussions.— cabinet and part of these discussions. . ., discussions. i am dealing with defence. i'm _ discussions. i am dealing with defence. i'm happy _ discussions. i am dealing with defence. i'm happy to - discussions. i am dealing with defence. i'm happy to cover i discussions. i am dealing with - defence. i'm happy to cover these issues off. the government will come

up issues off. the government will come up with its plant in due course but you will have to wait.— you will have to wait. let's talk about what _ you will have to wait. let's talk about what rishi _ you will have to wait. let's talk about what rishi sunak - you will have to wait. let's talk about what rishi sunak did - you will have to wait. let's talk - about what rishi sunak did announce last week, pushing back some of the deadlines on various green measures. one of them the deadline on banning the sale of new petrol and diesel cars. do you back that?- cars. do you back that? entirely. but i want _ cars. do you back that? entirely. but i want to _ cars. do you back that? entirely. but i want to correct _ cars. do you back that? entirely. but i want to correct something l cars. do you back that? entirely. . but i want to correct something that has got out there. we have already exceeded all of our urban budgets. we have the leading position in the g7 in terms of the amount of carbon we produce. that so—called pushed back to 2035 was always the ending for the sale of petrol and diesel cars. what has been raised in this discussion is that what has been moved is the cut—off in 2030, were all cars would have to be hybrid to be sold. but they were always allowed to be sold, petrol and diesel, if they were hybrid, through to 2030. ., diesel, if they were hybrid, through to 2030. . , ., ., diesel, if they were hybrid, through to 2030. ., , ., ., diesel, if they were hybrid, through t02030. ., , ., ., to 2030. that is not what you said in march. to 2030. that is not what you said in march- you _ to 2030. that is not what you said in march. you said, _ to 2030. that is not what you said in march. you said, we _ to 2030. that is not what you said in march. you said, we have - in march. you said, we have set our path, which is by 2030, we will see the end of the sale of petrol and diesel. we will always be more

forward leaning on this stuff from the eu. , ., ., , _ the eu. pure petrol and diesel by 2030, that — the eu. pure petrol and diesel by 2030, that was _ the eu. pure petrol and diesel by 2030, that was always _ the eu. pure petrol and diesel by 2030, that was always the - the eu. pure petrol and diesel by| 2030, that was always the policy. 2035 has always been the final phase out. what we've discovered is that we are running ahead... i out. what we've discovered is that we are running ahead...— we are running ahead... i don't thinkthat _ we are running ahead... i don't think that is — we are running ahead... i don't think that is right. _ we are running ahead... i don't think that is right. 2030 - we are running ahead... i don't think that is right. 2030 was i we are running ahead... i don't. think that is right. 2030 was when the ban on new petrol and diesel was coming in? the ban on new petrol and diesel was comint in? ., , the ban on new petrol and diesel was comint in? . , . the ban on new petrol and diesel was comint in? ., , . ::;~,:: coming in? that is incorrect. 2030 was the date _ coming in? that is incorrect. 2030 was the date at _ coming in? that is incorrect. 2030 was the date at which _ coming in? that is incorrect. 2030 was the date at which you - coming in? that is incorrect. 2030 was the date at which you would . coming in? that is incorrect. 2030 i was the date at which you would have to sell a hybrid car but it could still have petrol and diesel internal combustion engine. 2035 is when it would end entirely. that is still the date. what has changed is the sequencing. so does 2030, in 2030 will still be able to sell a nonhybrid car under the current plans. that is the change. really what we have discovered, to answer the wider question, is we have been moving ahead, way ahead, of the rest of europe. faster than greece, faster than france, faster than germany. in faster than france, faster than german . , faster than france, faster than germany-— faster than france, faster than german . g . . . . germany. in june, the climate change committee. — germany. in june, the climate change committee, independent _ germany. in june, the climate change committee, independent advisers i germany. in june, the climate change committee, independent advisers to i committee, independent advisers to the government, before rishi sunak announced the measures this week,

was questioning whether 2050, the net—zero target could be met? that net-zero target could be met? that is theiriob- — net-zero target could be met? that is theiriob- we _ net-zero target could be met? that is theirjob. we set _ net—zero target could be met? “inst is theirjob. we set them up to question those things. [30 is theirjob. we set them up to question those things.- is theirjob. we set them up to question those things. do you not listen to them? _ question those things. do you not listen to them? we _ question those things. do you not listen to them? we certainly i question those things. do you not listen to them? we certainly do. | question those things. do you not i listen to them? we certainly do. we have not only _ listen to them? we certainly do. we have not only met _ listen to them? we certainly do. we have not only met but _ listen to them? we certainly do. we have not only met but exceeded i listen to them? we certainly do. we have not only met but exceeded are | have not only met but exceeded are my first carbon budget, or second, third, on track for fourth and fifth. we are now working on the sixth budget, which takes us through to 2037. in that time we have already identified, even after these changes, to give some relief to families, 90% of some of the things we need to do. by 2037. i'm confident we'll get there as well. we are way behind the rest of europe when it comes to heat pumps and insulation? we when it comes to heat pumps and insulation?— insulation? we are way behind on reducin: insulation? we are way behind on reducing carbon _ insulation? we are way behind on reducing carbon is. _ insulation? we are way behind on reducing carbon is. and _ insulation? we are way behind on reducing carbon is. and you i insulation? we are way behind on reducing carbon is. and you are l reducing carbon is. and you are right on heat pumps and insulation. it is difficult because of our old housing stock to do it. that's why again we want to allow more time so we are not penalising households. more time? you have been in power for 13 years. if we started earlier people might have lower energy bills. ~ . , ., people might have lower energy bills. ~ . . , bills. what you imagine the number of homes that _

bills. what you imagine the number of homes that were _ bills. what you imagine the number of homes that were insulated i bills. what you imagine the number of homes that were insulated back i bills. what you imagine the number| of homes that were insulated back in 2010? most people won't know. only 14%. to date is approaching 50%. that is because of the government? yes, because we put billions of pounds into doing that. we have made huge progress. we are not prepared to say to every household, within a couple of years, which is what the policy could have ended up with, we have never confirmed that timetable, it would have ended up saying the ban on gas boilers means that perhaps an average home would perhaps an average home would perhaps spend £8,000 and having to rip out their gas boiler. if people want to vote for that, the opposition still say that is what they want to do. we will meet our 2050 commitments and give families a bit of a break and enable them to change the boilers as time comes rather than force the pace, which is not realistic. rather than force the pace, which is not realistio— not realistic. ok. 24 days you have been defence _ not realistic. ok. 24 days you have been defence secretary. _ not realistic. ok. 24 days you have been defence secretary. i- not realistic. ok. 24 days you have been defence secretary. i wanted. not realistic. ok. 24 days you have l been defence secretary. i wanted to ask you, if you're a republican president is elected on a ticket to pull all us support from ukraine, what with the uk do? i pull all us support from ukraine, what with the uk do?— pull all us support from ukraine, what with the uk do? i have been, in that short period _ what with the uk do? i have been, in that short period of— what with the uk do? i have been, in that short period of time, _

what with the uk do? i have been, in that short period of time, i _ what with the uk do? i have been, in that short period of time, i had i what with the uk do? i have been, in that short period of time, i had to i that short period of time, i had to meet my ukrainian opposite number, the defence secretary, actually in germany, with 50 nations who are backing ukraine. you germany, with 50 nations who are backing ukraine.— backing ukraine. you could do it without the _ backing ukraine. you could do it without the us _ backing ukraine. you could do it without the us to _ backing ukraine. you could do it without the us to first _ backing ukraine. you could do it without the us to first of - backing ukraine. you could do it without the us to first of all, i backing ukraine. you could do it| without the us to first of all, that is a wild and the line before we see what happens. but you must be having this conversation now? we what happens. but you must be having this conversation now?— this conversation now? we will carry on standing — this conversation now? we will carry on standing shoulder _ this conversation now? we will carry on standing shoulder to _ this conversation now? we will carry on standing shoulder to shoulder- on standing shoulder to shoulder with our rent in ukraine. we know the history of europe. we know what happens when we allow a tyrant to invade a neighbour and then continue westward. it is absolutely essential that putin is unable to walk into a democratic neighbour without consequences. that is why britain has stood firm and we will continue to do so. ., ,, has stood firm and we will continue to do so. . i. .. has stood firm and we will continue to do so. . i. ., ., to do so. can you do it without the us, the to do so. can you do it without the us, the biggest — to do so. can you do it without the us, the biggest downer _ to do so. can you do it without the us, the biggest downer when i to do so. can you do it without the us, the biggest downer when it i to do so. can you do it without the i us, the biggest downer when it comes to humanitarian and legal aid? == to humanitarian and legal aid? -- dollar. i to humanitarian and legal aid? » dollar. i believe the american seat in their interest in the world pass interests to ensure that ukraine

remains a democratic nation. —— world pass next interest. it is quite a speck of the point you are making. the point i would make is we will stand shoulder to shoulder with our rent in ukraine. i havejust announced tens of thousands of pounds more in ammunition. we have already given them 300,000 rounds and a whole plethora of other pieces of kit, and training, by the end of this year we will have trained 30,000 ukrainian troops here in the uk as part of an international effort. so, uk as part of an international effort. $0, or uk as part of an international effort. so, orsupport is watertight. it is very important that putin does not benefit from invading his neighbour.- that putin does not benefit from invading his neighbour. thank you very much- _ invading his neighbour. thank you very much. grant _ invading his neighbour. thank you very much. grant shapps, - invading his neighbour. thank you | very much. grant shapps, defence secretary, thank you for being with us and talking about those issues. what do you think? we'd love to hear your thoughts. you can contact us by e—mail, or on socials. we'll try to share some of the conversation later. if you want to read the headlines as the

programme on false, just go to the live page, the bbc live page, the addresses there. —— unfolds. so what do our panel think? grant shapps talking about continuing to be committed to ukraine irrespective of what happens in the us presidential election. do you think the us has the right policy? you think the us has the right oli ? , ., you think the us has the right oli ? , . , . . you think the us has the right oli ? . .., . policy? there is a strategic void at the heart of _ policy? there is a strategic void at the heart of our _ policy? there is a strategic void at the heart of our thinking - policy? there is a strategic void at the heart of our thinking about i policy? there is a strategic void at| the heart of our thinking about the war in— the heart of our thinking about the war in ukraine _ the heart of our thinking about the war in ukraine that— the heart of our thinking about the war in ukraine that really- the heart of our thinking about the war in ukraine that really worries i war in ukraine that really worries me _ war in ukraine that really worries me. ~ . , war in ukraine that really worries me. . . , . war in ukraine that really worries me-_ well. - war in ukraine that really worries me._ well, what i me. which is what? well, what exactly is _ me. which is what? well, what exactly is the — me. which is what? well, what exactly is the strategic - me. which is what? well, what exactly is the strategic end? i me. which is what? well, what i exactly is the strategic end? when i hear president _ exactly is the strategic end? when i hear president biden_ exactly is the strategic end? when i hear president biden talk— exactly is the strategic end? when i hear president biden talk about i hear president biden talk about dragging — hear president biden talk about dragging putin. _ hear president biden talk about dragging putin, whom - hear president biden talk about dragging putin, whom i- hear president biden talk about dragging putin, whom i have. dragging putin, whom i have characterised _ dragging putin, whom i have characterised a _ dragging putin, whom i have characterised a war- dragging putin, whom i have characterised a war criminall dragging putin, whom i have- characterised a war criminal backin 2001. _ characterised a war criminal backin 2001, so— characterised a war criminal backin 2001, so let — characterised a war criminal backin 2001, so let me _ characterised a war criminal backin 2001, so let me be _ characterised a war criminal backin 2001, so let me be clear— characterised a war criminal backin 2001, so let me be clear regarding my position. — 2001, so let me be clear regarding my position. but _ 2001, so let me be clear regarding my position, but when _ 2001, so let me be clear regarding my position, but when he - 2001, so let me be clear regarding my position, but when he says- 2001, so let me be clear regarding my position, but when he says hei 2001, so let me be clear regardingi my position, but when he says he is going _ my position, but when he says he is going to _ my position, but when he says he is going to drag — my position, but when he says he is going to drag him _ my position, but when he says he is going to drag him to— my position, but when he says he is going to drag him to the _ going to drag him to the international— going to drag him to the international court, i going to drag him to the international court, thatj going to drag him to the - international court, that means regime — international court, that means regime change _ international court, that means regime change. so— international court, that means regime change. so is— international court, that means regime change. so is the - international court, that means. regime change. so is the objective of the _ regime change. so is the objective of the west— regime change. so is the objective of the west not _ regime change. so is the objective of the west not only _ regime change. so is the objective of the west not only the _ regime change. so is the objective of the west not only the complete | of the west not only the complete defeat _ of the west not only the complete defeat of — of the west not only the complete defeat of russia _

of the west not only the complete defeat of russia on _ of the west not only the complete defeat of russia on the _ of the west not only the complete defeat of russia on the ground, i of the west not only the complete i defeat of russia on the ground, but also regime — defeat of russia on the ground, but also regime change? _ defeat of russia on the ground, but also regime change? what- defeat of russia on the ground, but also regime change?— also regime change? what do you think it should _ also regime change? what do you think it should be? _ also regime change? what do you think it should be? well, - also regime change? what do you think it should be? well, we i also regime change? what do you i think it should be? well, we haven't done very well— think it should be? well, we haven't done very well with _ think it should be? well, we haven't done very well with regime - think it should be? well, we haven't done very well with regime change i think it should be? well, we haven't| done very well with regime change in iraq, afghanistan, _ done very well with regime change in iraq, afghanistan, libya. _ done very well with regime change in iraq, afghanistan, libya. we - done very well with regime change in iraq, afghanistan, libya. we have. done very well with regime change in iraq, afghanistan, libya. we have a. iraq, afghanistan, libya. we have a bad record — iraq, afghanistan, libya. we have a bad record i— iraq, afghanistan, libya. we have a bad record. ivery_ iraq, afghanistan, libya. we have a bad record. i very much— iraq, afghanistan, libya. we have a bad record. i very much fear- iraq, afghanistan, libya. we have a bad record. i very much fear if- bad record. i very much fear if there — bad record. i very much fear if there is— bad record. i very much fear if there is a _ bad record. i very much fear if there is a regime _ bad record. i very much fear if there is a regime change i bad record. i very much fear if there is a regime change in. bad record. i very much fear if- there is a regime change in russia it will— there is a regime change in russia it will be _ there is a regime change in russia it will be for— there is a regime change in russia it will be for the _ there is a regime change in russia it will be for the worse. _ there is a regime change in russia it will be for the worse. what i it will be for the worse. what should the — it will be for the worse. what should the strategy - it will be for the worse. what should the strategy be? i it will be for the worse. what should the strategy be? as i it will be for the worse. what i should the strategy be? as far as i'm concerned _ should the strategy be? as far as i'm concerned the _ should the strategy be? as far as i'm concerned the number- should the strategy be? as far as i'm concerned the number one i i'm concerned the number one objective — i'm concerned the number one objective should _ i'm concerned the number one objective should be _ i'm concerned the number one objective should be to- i'm concerned the number one objective should be to return l i'm concerned the number onei objective should be to return to i'm concerned the number one i objective should be to return to the status _ objective should be to return to the status quo — objective should be to return to the status quo before _ objective should be to return to the status quo before the _ objective should be to return to the status quo before the 22nd - objective should be to return to the status quo before the 22nd of- status quo before the 22nd of february _ status quo before the 22nd of february 2022. _ status quo before the 22nd of february 2022.— status quo before the 22nd of februa 2022. . ., . february 2022. hang on, so reward president putin _ february 2022. hang on, so reward president putin with _ february 2022. hang on, so reward president putin with crimea - february 2022. hang on, so reward president putin with crimea and i february 2022. hang on, so reward| president putin with crimea and the east of the country? ihla. president putin with crimea and the east of the country?— east of the country? no, the west did not to east of the country? no, the west did not go to _ east of the country? no, the west did not go to war, _ east of the country? no, the west did not go to war, did _ east of the country? no, the west did not go to war, did not - east of the country? no, the west did not go to war, did not support| did not go to war, did not support the war— did not go to war, did not support the war against _ did not go to war, did not support the war against russia, _ did not go to war, did not support the war against russia, before i did not go to war, did not support| the war against russia, before the 22nd _ the war against russia, before the 22nd of— the war against russia, before the 22nd of february, _ the war against russia, before the 22nd of february, 2022. _ the war against russia, before the 22nd of february, 2022. so- the war against russia, before the 22nd of february, 2022. so for- the war against russia, before the| 22nd of february, 2022. so for him it would _ 22nd of february, 2022. so for him it would be — 22nd of february, 2022. so for him it would be a — 22nd of february, 2022. so for him it would be a major— 22nd of february, 2022. so for him it would be a major defeat - 22nd of february, 2022. so for him it would be a major defeat if- 22nd of february, 2022. so for him it would be a major defeat if he i it would be a major defeat if he loses _ it would be a major defeat if he loses marry— it would be a major defeat if he loses marry you _ it would be a major defeat if he loses marry you pull— it would be a major defeat if he loses marry you pull and - it would be a major defeat if he loses marry you pull and he i it would be a major defeat if he i loses marry you pull and he goes back _ loses marry you pull and he goes back... ., loses marry you pull and he goes back... . ., ., back... craig mckinlay, or do you think of ukrainian _ back... craig mckinlay, or do you think of ukrainian -- _ back... craig mckinlay, or do you think of ukrainian -- what i back... craig mckinlay, or do you think of ukrainian -- what you i back... craig mckinlay, or do you i think of ukrainian -- what you think think of ukrainian —— what you think ukrainian people would make of that

idea? it’s ukrainian people would make of that idea? �* , ., ukrainian people would make of that idea? �*, . . ., ukrainian people would make of that idea? �*, . . . ., , idea? it's ideal. what would be the better outcome _ idea? it's ideal. what would be the better outcome to _ idea? it's ideal. what would be the better outcome to stop _ idea? it's ideal. what would be the better outcome to stop the - idea? it's ideal. what would be the better outcome to stop the war, i idea? it's ideal. what would be the i better outcome to stop the war, the deprivation, — better outcome to stop the war, the deprivation, the deaths? these are deaths _ deprivation, the deaths? these are deaths we — deprivation, the deaths? these are deaths we had not seen on this scale in europe _ deaths we had not seen on this scale in europe since the second world war~ _ in europe since the second world war~ what — in europe since the second world war. what is america going to do? it is usually— war. what is america going to do? it is usually the linchpin. i don't think— is usually the linchpin. i don't think america will abandon this. i think— think america will abandon this. i think it _ think america will abandon this. i think it will — think america will abandon this. i think it will stick with it. the choice — think it will stick with it. the choice facing the west is, do we do that bit— choice facing the west is, do we do that bit more to actually make sure ukraine _ that bit more to actually make sure ukraine wins, or do we sort of allow this war— ukraine wins, or do we sort of allow this war to— ukraine wins, or do we sort of allow this war to continue? what worries me more _ this war to continue? what worries me more than anything, bit like balkan — me more than anything, bit like balkan wars, the first six months, front— balkan wars, the first six months, front page. — balkan wars, the first six months, front page, front page, that goes to the second — front page, front page, that goes to the second page, fourth page will stop i_ the second page, fourth page will stop i feel we are going up that route _ stop i feel we are going up that route now. poland is unhappy because of rows— route now. poland is unhappy because of rows about grain. it feels like the coalition isjust a little bit fractious— the coalition isjust a little bit fractious now. the coalition is 'ust a little bit fractious now.— the coalition is 'ust a little bit fractious now. how ukraine win. define victory? _ fractious now. how ukraine win. define victory? we _ fractious now. how ukraine win. define victory? we seem - fractious now. how ukraine win. define victory? we seem to i fractious now. how ukraine win.

define victory? we seem to be i fractious now. how ukraine win. - define victory? we seem to be doing a lot of— define victory? we seem to be doing a lot of the _ define victory? we seem to be doing a lot of the heavy lifting in ukraine~ _ a lot of the heavy lifting in ukraine-— a lot of the heavy lifting in ukraine. ., «a, ., , ukraine. for many ukrainians, winnina ukraine. for many ukrainians, winning is _ ukraine. for many ukrainians, winning is pushing _ ukraine. for many ukrainians, winning is pushing out - ukraine. for many ukrainians, winning is pushing out of - ukraine. for many ukrainians, - winning is pushing out of ukraine. yes, but what does that mean? that means an yes, but what does that mean? means an independent yes, but what does that mean? that means an independent ukraine. yes, but what does that mean?- means an independent ukraine. that means an independent ukraine. that means get them out of the whole of ukraine. ., , , , ., ukraine. yanis suggested it would mean not just _ ukraine. yanis suggested it would mean notjust regime _ ukraine. yanis suggested it would mean notjust regime change - ukraine. yanis suggested it would mean notjust regime change in i mean notjust regime change in russia, it would mean regime change in ukraine. they were not accept any concession by president zelensky when it comes to crimea. {line concession by president zelensky when it comes to crimea.- concession by president zelensky when it comes to crimea. one of the concerns i have _ when it comes to crimea. one of the concerns i have is _ when it comes to crimea. one of the concerns i have is what _ when it comes to crimea. one of the concerns i have is what happens - when it comes to crimea. one of the concerns i have is what happens to l concerns i have is what happens to ukraine _ concerns i have is what happens to ukraine after— concerns i have is what happens to ukraine after victory? _ concerns i have is what happens to ukraine after victory? like - concerns i have is what happens to ukraine after victory? like it's- concerns i have is what happens to ukraine after victory? like it's not| ukraine after victory? like it's not forget _ ukraine after victory? like it's not forget that— ukraine after victory? like it's not forget that war _ ukraine after victory? like it's not forget that war concentrates - ukraine after victory? like it's not forget that war concentrates the i forget that war concentrates the mind _ forget that war concentrates the mind and — forget that war concentrates the mind and creates _ forget that war concentrates the mind and creates a _ forget that war concentrates the mind and creates a huge - forget that war concentrates the l mind and creates a huge collision. think— mind and creates a huge collision. think of— mind and creates a huge collision. think of the — mind and creates a huge collision. think of the mujahedin. _ mind and creates a huge collision. think of the mujahedin. the - mind and creates a huge collision. i think of the mujahedin. the moment they won _ think of the mujahedin. the moment they won they— think of the mujahedin. the moment they won they started _ think of the mujahedin. the moment they won they started fighting - think of the mujahedin. the moment they won they started fighting one i they won they started fighting one another~ _ they won they started fighting one another~ my— they won they started fighting one another. my concern _ they won they started fighting one another. my concern is _ they won they started fighting one another. my concern is that - they won they started fighting one another. my concern is that we - another. my concern is that we should — another. my concern is that we should minimise _ another. my concern is that we should minimise deaths- another. my concern is that we should minimise deaths and i another. my concern is that we i should minimise deaths and have another. my concern is that we - should minimise deaths and have a coherent— should minimise deaths and have a coherent plan— should minimise deaths and have a coherent plan for— should minimise deaths and have a coherent plan for rebuilding - coherent plan for rebuilding

ukraine _ coherent plan for rebuilding ukraine. personally, - coherent plan for rebuilding ukraine. personally, i- coherent plan for rebuildingl ukraine. personally, iwould coherent plan for rebuilding - ukraine. personally, iwould like coherent plan for rebuilding - ukraine. personally, i would like to see the _ ukraine. personally, i would like to see the question _ ukraine. personally, i would like to see the question of— ukraine. personally, i would like to see the question of crimea - ukraine. personally, i would like to see the question of crimea going. ukraine. personally, i would like to| see the question of crimea going to the united — see the question of crimea going to the united nations. _ see the question of crimea going to the united nations. i— see the question of crimea going to the united nations. i come - see the question of crimea going to the united nations. i come from . the united nations. i come from greece — the united nations. i come from greece this _ the united nations. i come from greece. this question— the united nations. i come from greece. this question has- the united nations. i come from greece. this question has beenl greece. this question has been discussed — greece. this question has been discussed for— greece. this question has been discussed for decades. - greece. this question has been discussed for decades.- greece. this question has been discussed for decades. rachel, you voted green _ discussed for decades. rachel, you voted green at _ discussed for decades. rachel, you voted green at the _ discussed for decades. rachel, you voted green at the last _ discussed for decades. rachel, you voted green at the last election, i discussed for decades. rachel, you voted green at the last election, is| voted green at the last election, is that right? t voted green at the last election, is that riuht? ., ., ., voted green at the last election, is that riuht? . ., ., , that right? i did admit that on my lbc show last _ that right? i did admit that on my lbc show last week. _ that right? i did admit that on my lbc show last week. what - that right? i did admit that on my lbc show last week. what did - that right? i did admit that on my| lbc show last week. what did you make of the _ lbc show last week. what did you make of the announcement - lbc show last week. what did you make of the announcement from | lbc show last week. what did you - make of the announcement from rishi sunak last week? ifelt make of the announcement from rishi sunak last week? i felt quite confused by what grant shapps was saying about the announcement because my understanding is... the petrol and diesel car deadline pushed back to 2035. what does it tell you about rishi sunak�*s strategy as we head towards an election? it strategy as we head towards an election? , , ., , election? it tells us that rishi sunak is going _ election? it tells us that rishi sunak is going to _ election? it tells us that rishi sunak is going to make... - election? it tells us that rishi| sunak is going to make... the election? it tells us that rishi - sunak is going to make... the like turn he stood in front of downing street spoke of long—term decisions for the future. i thought, no, street spoke of long—term decisions for the future. ithought, no, we are making short—term decisions for are making short—term decisions for a darker future when are making short—term decisions for a darkerfuture when it are making short—term decisions for a darker future when it comes to transport infrastructure, when it comes to net—zero, all these things. these are populist measures. he is

equating green with expensive, which is wrong. green is going to be very good for the economy if they grip it. this is what i felt. irate good for the economy if they grip it. this is what i felt.— it. this is what i felt. we haven't not a it. this is what i felt. we haven't got a decision — it. this is what i felt. we haven't got a decision on _ it. this is what i felt. we haven't got a decision on h52, _ it. this is what i felt. we haven't got a decision on h52, does - it. this is what i felt. we haven't got a decision on h52, does it i it. this is what i felt. we haven't - got a decision on h52, does it sound got a decision on hs2, does it sound like... ht got a decision on h52, does it sound like... �* ., ., got a decision on h52, does it sound like- - -_ does - got a decision on h52, does it sound like. . ._ does it. like... it didn't feel good. does it feel like rishi _ like... it didn't feel good. does it feel like rishi sunak— like... it didn't feel good. does it feel like rishi sunak is _ like... it didn't feel good. does it feel like rishi sunak is unpicking| feel like rishi sunak is unpicking some of your brother's legacy? actually, hs2 is not his legacy. it was a labour project. i do think we need better transport infrastructure in this country. there is no point kicking the can and making future generations pay for these big decisions. these decisions are hard, they should be taken now. if you do sir —— deferred these decisions, it costs more in the long run. sir -- deferred these decisions, it costs more in the long run. that's true, costs more in the long run. that's true. isn't — costs more in the long run. that's true. isn't it. _ costs more in the long run. that's true, isn't it, craig _ costs more in the long run. that's true, isn't it, craig mckinlay? - costs more in the long run. that's true, isn't it, craig mckinlay? i. true, isn't it, craig mckinlay? i was i was against hsz from day one. it was _ was i was against hsz from day one. it was to— was i was against hsz from day one. it was to london centric. what was i was against h52 from day one. it was to london centric.— it was to london centric. what you mean, it it was to london centric. what you mean. it was _ it was to london centric. what you mean, it was going _ it was to london centric. what you mean, it was going from _ it was to london centric. what you mean, it was going from london i it was to london centric. what you | mean, it was going from london to birmingham to leeds to manchester?

those bits, fully in favour of. it should — those bits, fully in favour of. it should have been a project connecting the pennine route. i don't _ connecting the pennine route. i don't ever— connecting the pennine route. i don't ever think that london needed that extra _ don't ever think that london needed that extra connection. you don't ever think that london needed that extra connection.— that extra connection. you backed the birmingham _ that extra connection. you backed the birmingham to _ that extra connection. you backed the birmingham to manchester. that extra connection. you backed - the birmingham to manchester route? if the london bid finishes an old oak common, current right frankly, the whole _ oak common, current right frankly, the whole thing is looking shabby. the old _ the whole thing is looking shabby. the old spreadsheet we sang for every— the old spreadsheet we sang for every pound spent, every £2.40, it is now— every pound spent, every £2.40, it is now down— every pound spent, every £2.40, it is now down to 90 p. how an earth can a _ is now down to 90 p. how an earth can a project. _ is now down to 90 p. how an earth can a project, first valued at 33 billion, — can a project, first valued at 33 billion, how has that escalated 200? we have _ billion, how has that escalated 200? we have now got potential for another— we have now got potential for another 8 billion overlay. genes have _ another 8 billion overlay. genes have to — another 8 billion overlay. genes have to hit _ another 8 billion overlay. genes have to hit reality one day. that is exactly _ have to hit reality one day. that is exactly what is part of the reason behind _ exactly what is part of the reason behind the car ban and the oil and -as behind the car ban and the oil and gas ban _ behind the car ban and the oil and gas ban it— behind the car ban and the oil and gas ban. it is a reality. it is pragmatism. we will hear more of that _ pragmatism. we will hear more of that. ., ., ., true, how do you get growth if you're cutting back on spending on infrastructure? you you're cutting back on spending on infrastructure?—

infrastructure? you 'ust shouldn't. i come from h infrastructure? you just shouldn't. i come from outside, _ infrastructure? you just shouldn't. i come from outside, i _ infrastructure? you just shouldn't. i come from outside, i don't - infrastructure? you just shouldn't. i come from outside, i don't have| i come from outside, i don't have skin in the game here. on the outside, britain is looking like a country that is becoming very introverted. and unable to pursue a large—scale modernisation scheme. you had this plan for hs2. the way it looks from the outside... it you had this plan for h52. the way it looks from the outside. . .- it looks from the outside... it was sunported — it looks from the outside... it was supported financially _ it looks from the outside... it was supported financially by _ it looks from the outside... it was supported financially by the - it looks from the outside... it was supported financially by the eu, l supported financially by the eu, don't _ supported financially by the eu, don't forget _ there is no doubt the state can support the building of proper railway infrastructure. you can if you put your mind to it. but it is also a question of credibility. when the government says they need to look at the knees, just get on and build it otherwise you are simply... penny—pinching has its place. irate build it otherwise you are simply... penny-pinching has its place. we are talkin: penny-pinching has its place. we are talking about — penny-pinching has its place. we are talking about billions _ penny-pinching has its place. we are talking about billions and _ penny-pinching has its place. we are talking about billions and billions. . talking about billions and billions. all the great modernising project of the 19th century, they cost a lot more money than here. the railways in the united states bankrupted all the railway companies, but you left

behind in infrastructure on which the modern world has been built. j the modern world has been built. i think that money could be better spent _ think that money could be better spent on — think that money could be better spent on smaller infrastructure praiects — spent on smaller infrastructure projects. look at the lower thames crossing _ projects. look at the lower thames crossing. we have been talking about it for 20 _ crossing. we have been talking about it for 20 years, we are in the fourth — it for 20 years, we are in the fourth iteration of the consultation period. _ fourth iteration of the consultation period, and not one bit of turf has been _ period, and not one bit of turf has been dug — period, and not one bit of turf has been dug. but period, and not one bit of turf has been dun. �* .,, period, and not one bit of turf has been duu.�* , period, and not one bit of turf has been duu.�* i. period, and not one bit of turf has beendu.�* i. been dug. but as andy street says, ou're been dug. but as andy street says, you're conservative _ been dug. but as andy street says, you're conservative colleague... i you're conservative colleague... that is more economically valuable... the - valuable... the conservative mayor of the valuable... — the conservative mayor of the west midlands andy street says if you don't carry this on now, you have a white elephant for old oak common to birmingham. we don't need that. j birmingham. we don't need that. i agree. birmingham. we don't need that. i agree- but — birmingham. we don't need that. i agree- but we _ birmingham. we don't need that. i agree. but we have _ birmingham. we don't need that. i agree. but we have spent - birmingham. we don't need that. i agree. but we have spent the - birmingham. we don't need that. i i agree. but we have spent the money. just no on agree. but we have spent the money. just go on to — agree. but we have spent the money. just go on to greater _ agree. but we have spent the money. just go on to greater manchester - just go on to greater manchester then, — just go on to greater manchester then, otherwise _ just go on to greater manchester then, otherwise don't _ just go on to greater manchester then, otherwise don't do - just go on to greater manchester then, otherwise don't do it. - just go on to greater manchester then, otherwise don't do it. i- then, otherwise don't do it. really struggle with this. then, otherwise don't do it. i i really struggle with this. it has then, otherwise don't do it. i - really struggle with this. it has to no to really struggle with this. it has to go to manchester— really struggle with this. it has to go to manchester otherwise - really struggle with this. it has to go to manchester otherwise you i really struggle with this. it has to - go to manchester otherwise you might as weit— go to manchester otherwise you might as well ended — go to manchester otherwise you might as well ended at — go to manchester otherwise you might as well ended at watford. _ go to manchester otherwise you might as well ended at watford.— as well ended at watford. whose responsibility _ as well ended at watford. whose responsibility will _ as well ended at watford. whose responsibility will it _ as well ended at watford. whose responsibility will it be _ as well ended at watford. whose responsibility will it be if - as well ended at watford. whose responsibility will it be if this - responsibility will it be if this extra bit is scrapped. it wasn't an extra bit is scrapped. it wasn't an extra bit, extra bit is scrapped. it wasn't an extra hit, it was integral at the beginning, if this bit is scrapped and we have what is described as a white elephant by some

conservatives?- white elephant by some conservatives? ~ ., , white elephant by some conservatives? ., , conservatives? we cannot 'ust keep sendina. conservatives? we cannot 'ust keep spending. so— conservatives? we cannot 'ust keep spending. so what h conservatives? we cannot 'ust keep spending. so what is _ conservatives? we cannot 'ust keep spending. so what is the h conservatives? we cannotjust keep spending. so what is the answer- conservatives? we cannotjust keep spending. so what is the answer to | spending. so what is the answer to the question? _ spending. so what is the answer to the question? my _ spending. so what is the answer to the question? my daughter - spending. so what is the answer to the question? my daughter will - spending. so what is the answer to the question? my daughter will be | the question? my daughter will be -a in: . .. the question? my daughter will be paying- -- whose — the question? my daughter will be paying... whose responsibility - the question? my daughter will be paying... whose responsibility if l the question? my daughter will be paying... whose responsibility if it is a waste paying. .. whose responsibility if it is a waste of— paying... whose responsibility if it is a waste of money? _ paying... whose responsibility if it is a waste of money? it _ paying. .. whose responsibility if it is a waste of money? it will- paying... whose responsibility if it is a waste of money? it will be - paying... whose responsibility if it| is a waste of money? it will be h52 limited for — is a waste of money? it will be h52 limited for not _ is a waste of money? it will be h52 limited for not managing _ is a waste of money? it will be h52 limited for not managing it - limited for not managing it properly. limited for not managing it properly-— properly. overseen by the government. _ properly. overseen by the government. they - properly. overseen by the government. they have i properly. overseen by the l government. they have not properly. overseen by the _ government. they have not managed this well. government. they have not managed this well- the — government. they have not managed this well. the political _ government. they have not managed this well. the political vision - government. they have not managed this well. the political vision is - this well. the political vision is there. — this well. the political vision is there. but— this well. the political vision is there, but it is the responsibility of an— there, but it is the responsibility of an agent that has been appointed to do this _ of an agent that has been appointed to do thisjob. with of an agent that has been appointed to do this job-— to do this job. with all this subtracting, _ to do this job. with all this subtracting, you _ to do this job. with all this subtracting, you have - to do this job. with all this subtracting, you have that| subtracting, you have that de—professionalisation. you no longer have after years of subcontracting, within the civil service, the capacity to design, plan and see through large modernisation projects. you end up with contractors working for private companies talking to contractors working for the government, and nobody being in a position to advise the government on what they should

be doing. the the government on what they should be doinu. , ,., ., be doing. the department for transport _ be doing. the department for transport oversees _ be doing. the department for transport oversees h52, - be doing. the department for transport oversees h52, it. be doing. the department for- transport oversees h52, it doesn't transport oversees hs2, it doesn't operate in a vacuum. we will pause there. we will be back with you very, very shortly. now, in the last general election the liberal democrats won just 11 seats. the leader, jo swinson, lost hers. it was a dismal time for the party. but since then they've had four byelection victories, all of them in what were conservative seats. here's a reminder of their leader ed davey�*s approach to campaigning. three, two, one... cheering when a really powerful strong orange force goes against a blue wall, let me show you this. cheering their party conference started yesterday in bournemouth, but ed davey has come up to join us today.

thank you very much for being here. can we start with the word cloud, please, done by the public opinion research group. they asked this question, we will show it to our viewers now. what does ed davey stand for? there it is. they have got absolutely no idea. how do explain that? i’m they have got absolutely no idea. how do explain that?— they have got absolutely no idea. how do explain that? i'm glad i'm here to be — how do explain that? i'm glad i'm here to be able _ how do explain that? i'm glad i'm here to be able to _ how do explain that? i'm glad i'm here to be able to explain - how do explain that? i'm glad i'm here to be able to explain it. - how do explain that? i'm glad i'm here to be able to explain it. it. how do explain that? i'm glad i'm here to be able to explain it. it is| here to be able to explain it. it is about, for example, improving the health service and care system. it is about helping people with the cost of living. they are really struggling with mortgages and rents. they need the party to say how they will help them. it is on the environment when we have led the campaign against the awful sewage dumping. we are getting our ideas. what like you have been leader for three years and they have got no clue. we have been winning by—elections, as your piece showed. where we have had success in conservative happens, people have been switching to us. i'm proud of

what my colleagues have been doing up what my colleagues have been doing up and down the country, because it is notjust in those by—elections that you showed where we were persuading lifelong conservatives to vote for us. it is also winning council elections across the whole united kingdom where we have been defying what our opponents and people have said about us and winning, because people have been hearing our message. they don't say, don't know, they say, yes, please. let's have a look in a bit more detail at your policies. housing, a massive issue for renters, for people wanting to buy. in 2021, your party said that your policy was aiming to build 380,000 new homes a year. this year, you scrapped that target, you said you were going to focus instead on council housing and social housing, and you are committing to 150,000 of those homes a year. is that enough? irate committing to 150,000 of those homes a year. is that enough?— a year. is that enough? we were debatina a year. is that enough? we were debating this _ a year. is that enough? we were debating this on _ a year. is that enough? we were debating this on monday - a year. is that enough? we were debating this on monday in - debating this on monday in bournemouth, exactly this issue. what you think? irate bournemouth, exactly this issue.

what you think?— bournemouth, exactly this issue. what you think? we do need a target for social housing. _ what you think? we do need a target for social housing. wise _ what you think? we do need a target for social housing. wise 150,000 - for social housing. wise 150,000 enouuh? for social housing. wise 150,000 enough? that — for social housing. wise 150,000 enough? that is _ for social housing. wise 150,000 enough? that is on _ for social housing. wise 150,000 enough? that is on social - for social housing. wise 150,000 i enough? that is on social housing. we want to — enough? that is on social housing. we want to build _ enough? that is on social housing. we want to build more _ enough? that is on social housing. we want to build more houses - we want to build more houses with the private sector, but on social housing, i'm glad you picked that up. my wife is a cancer in my constituency, and she has got the lead on housing and the council, and she is now developing the largest council house building project we have had for over 40 years, and it is that sort of investment in local communities to provide affordable housing that the liberal democrats stand for. �* . housing that the liberal democrats stand for. �* , ., housing that the liberal democrats standfor. �* , ., ., , stand for. because a housing federation — stand for. because a housing federation says, _ stand for. because a housing federation says, we - stand for. because a housing federation says, we need - stand for. because a housing - federation says, we need 300,000 homes a year, and government targets are needed to focus private developers' mines to make that happen. irate developers' mines to make that ha en. ~ . developers' mines to make that ha en, . ., ., developers' mines to make that ha--en. ~ ., ., ., developers' mines to make that ha--en. . ., ., ., ., ., happen. we have a target on social housina , happen. we have a target on social housing. which _ happen. we have a target on social housing, which is _ happen. we have a target on social housing, which is not _ happen. we have a target on social housing, which is not being - happen. we have a target on social housing, which is not being built i happen. we have a target on social housing, which is not being built atj housing, which is not being built at the moment. it is important to make the point that we have a target on social housing because that has been a sector that has seen no where near enough investment for many years. and if you don't qualify for social housing? and if you don't qualify for social housina ? . and if you don't qualify for social housina ? , ., ., i. .,

housing? first of all, if you do build council _ housing? first of all, if you do build council houses, - housing? first of all, if you do build council houses, and - housing? first of all, if you do build council houses, and this| housing? first of all, if you do i build council houses, and this is often not understood, you free up a lot of houses in the private rental sector. , . ~ . lot of houses in the private rental sector-_ yes. - lot of houses in the private rental sector._ yes, this l lot of houses in the private rental| sector._ yes, this is sector. just like that? yes, this is a problem — sector. just like that? yes, this is a problem across _ sector. just like that? yes, this is a problem across the _ sector. just like that? yes, this is a problem across the whole - sector. just like that? yes, this is i a problem across the whole country. councils over recent years have had to because they have not had enough council houses put people who needed housing in the private rented sector. and we have now seen the private rented sector contract because of conservative policies. councils are now spending huge amounts of money over budget putting people in temporary accommodation in hotels. so our policy was obviously really good value for money providing proper council houses so councils could harass people. i councils could harass people. i understand why you are focusing on council houses. let me ask the question. why have you got rid of a 300,000 target? taste question. why have you got rid of a 300,000 target?— 300,000 target? we think that to - -down 300,000 target? we think that top-down targets _ 300,000 target? we think that top-down targets lead - 300,000 target? we think that top-down targets lead to - 300,000 target? we think that i top-down targets lead to develop 300,000 target? we think that - top-down targets lead to develop a top—down targets lead to develop a led approaches, and what you see we develop at led approaches, you see the wrong houses being built on the wrong places. don't take my word for it, that is what theresa may said. and our approach, and it has been

tried and it has worked on as a community led approach. itruthat tried and it has worked on as a community led approach. what does that mean? — community led approach. what does that mean? you _ community led approach. what does that mean? you have _ community led approach. what does that mean? you have things - community led approach. what does that mean? you have things like - that mean? you have things like local neighbourhood _ that mean? you have things like local neighbourhood plans. - that mean? you have things like local neighbourhood plans. we i local neighbourhood plans. we legislated for those. to the community can object to planning? the communities involved at the whole stage. which means they can object and stop houses being built. and they can in the developer led model, but in the community led model, but in the community led model corn you take them with you. let me explain why it has worked so well. it results in houses people want in the places they want with the infrastructure they want. so often you hear that people are objecting not to houses, but they objecting not to houses, but they object to the fact that there aren't enough gps, not enough schools, that the infrastructure can't take the new homes. so you're notjust thinking about houses, you are thinking about houses, you are thinking about houses, you are thinking about the whole community infrastructure, and that is what has been missing and that is what we are keen to employ. 50 been missing and that is what we are keen to employ-— keen to employ. so is what you are sa inc , keen to employ. so is what you are saying. really. _ keen to employ. so is what you are saying, really, this _ keen to employ. so is what you are saying, really, this policy _ keen to employ. so is what you are saying, really, this policy is - keen to employ. so is what you are saying, really, this policy is about i saying, really, this policy is about appealing to conservative voters in conservative constituencies that you are targeting in the next election?

i think our policies on the health service and the environment two i’m service and the environment two i'm askin: service and the environment two i'm asking about housing in conservative constituencies. i asking about housing in conservative constituencies.— constituencies. i think they are --oular constituencies. i think they are popular amongst _ constituencies. i think they are popular amongst many - constituencies. i think they are | popular amongst many people. constituencies. i think they are i popular amongst many people. i constituencies. i think they are - popular amongst many people. i think our council house building project. i'm asking you, you keep talking about council housing, but the lib dems have had success campaigning in conservative constituencies where you campaigned against local housing development. is that what this is about? it development. is that what this is about? . development. is that what this is about? , ., , , ., development. is that what this is about? , , ., ., about? it is absolutely not about that. about? it is absolutely not about that- what _ about? it is absolutely not about that. what we _ about? it is absolutely not about that. what we said _ about? it is absolutely not about that. what we said for _ about? it is absolutely not about that. what we said for example i about? it is absolutely not about| that. what we said for example in the chesham and amersham by—election that we won, and people said we were against the houses then, but what we were against was developer led models, and i can't stress this enough. when you take communities with you, you do see more houses being built. don't take my word for it, there was a report done by the government department responsible which showed that the neighbourhood planning that the liberal democrats wanted and what they want now leads to more houses being built... you like but they _ to more houses being built... you like but they have _ to more houses being built... you like but they have the support they

need from local people. let's talk about relations with the eu. in 2019, you branded yourself, the lib dems, as the stop brexit party. you know you say people on the doorstep are not talking about it. are you going to go quiet on it as well? taste going to go quiet on it as well? we are going to go quiet on it as well? , are talking a lot about it at conference, quite rightly. we rightly did fight against brexit, and we voted against the trade deal that boris johnson and we voted against the trade deal that borisjohnson bought, it was a disastrous deal. we voted against it because we knew it would damage the economy. i’m because we knew it would damage the econom . �* . ~' because we knew it would damage the econom . �* ., ~ ., because we knew it would damage the econom. �* ., ~ ., because we knew it would damage the econom . �* ., ~ ., ., . ., economy. i'm talking about now. what is the position — economy. i'm talking about now. what is the position now _ economy. i'm talking about now. what is the position now quite _ economy. i'm talking about now. what is the position now quite yellow - economy. i'm talking about now. what is the position now quite yellow it - is the position now quite yellow it is the position now quite yellow it is because of that history that i'm very happy to tell you that we remain very pro—european. we want britain to be at the heart of europe, but we are also deeply realistic about what is going to have to be done to enable us to improve our our relations with europe, and unfortunately this conservative government have so soured our relations, european politicians don't trust the uk any more, and that is a very sad position, and it is against the

national interest. so the next government has got to engage with europe in a way that this isn't doing. new so so the lib dems support membership of the eu? taste so the lib dems support membership of the eu? ~ ., , . ., ., of the eu? we have been clear that britain should _ of the eu? we have been clear that britain should be _ of the eu? we have been clear that britain should be at _ of the eu? we have been clear that britain should be at the _ of the eu? we have been clear that britain should be at the heart - of the eu? we have been clear that britain should be at the heart of- britain should be at the heart of europe... britain should be at the heart of euroe... , ., ., ., europe... does that mean re'oining? we need to — europe... does that mean re'oining? we need to rebuild * europe... does that mean re'oining? we need to rebuild those h we need to rebuild those relationships. european politicians are not listening to the uk, and thatis are not listening to the uk, and that is damaging our industry... abate that is damaging our industry... are ou that is damaging our industry... are you deflected from the question? do you deflected from the question? do you think that the lib dems position is that you want to rejoin the eu? that is not on the table. but is that you want to rejoin the eu? that is not on the table.— that is not on the table. but i'm askin: that is not on the table. but i'm asking you _ that is not on the table. but i'm asking you what _ that is not on the table. but i'm asking you what your _ that is not on the table. but i'm asking you what your policy - that is not on the table. but i'm asking you what your policy is. i that is not on the table. but i'm i asking you what your policy is. and in our manifesto _ asking you what your policy is. jifuc in our manifesto being debated at bournemouth, we are looking at what has got to be done over the next five years to strengthen our economy, to strengthen our security, because we are not cooperated with europe as we should be in tackling crime, so i really want to, the liberal democrats really want us to

completely rebuild that trust, rebuild that relationship, so that we can be at the heart of europe. that is going to take time. we have to take the british people with us, we have to convince european politicians that we are serious, because they feel very let down, and it is damaging our economy so badly that we are going to have to take time to mend that. bind that we are going to have to take time to mend that.— that we are going to have to take time to mend that. and some of your su orters time to mend that. and some of your supporters feel _ time to mend that. and some of your supporters feel let _ time to mend that. and some of your supporters feel let down _ time to mend that. and some of your supporters feel let down because - supporters feel let down because they want you to be absolutely clear that we, the lib dems, will rejoin europe. maximise public support for rejoining the eu. i europe. maximise public support for rejoining the eu.— rejoining the eu. i think when --eole rejoining the eu. i think when people hear— rejoining the eu. i think when people hear our _ rejoining the eu. i think when people hear our policies, - rejoining the eu. i think when| people hear our policies, they really get that we are the pro—european party. we are the only party, and i think this is really fat... . , ., party, and i think this is really fat... . , party, and i think this is really fat... ., , party, and i think this is really fat... . , ., fat... can you 'ust say out loud, es, fat... can you 'ust say out loud, yes, the — fat... can you 'ust say out loud, yes, the m, — fat... can you just say out loud, yes, the lib dems _ fat... can you just say out loud, yes, the lib dems want - fat... can you just say out loud, yes, the lib dems want to - fat... can you just say out loud, | yes, the lib dems want to rejoin fat... can you just say out loud, - yes, the lib dems want to rejoin the eu. you won't say the words, it is so weird. it eu. you won't say the words, it is so weird. . eu. you won't say the words, it is so weird. , ., ., ., so weird. it is not weird at all. i'm focusing — so weird. it is not weird at all. i'm focusing on _ so weird. it is not weird at all. i'm focusing on how— so weird. it is not weird at all. i'm focusing on how we - so weird. it is not weird at all. | i'm focusing on how we rebuild so weird. it is not weird at all. - i'm focusing on how we rebuild the relationship, and it is a four stage

relationship... taste relationship, and it is a four stage relationship. . .— relationship, and it is a four stage relationship... we haven't got time for stages- — relationship... we haven't got time for stages. coming _ relationship... we haven't got time for stages. coming to _ relationship... we haven't got time for stages. coming to the - relationship... we haven't got time for stages. coming to the end - relationship... we haven't got time for stages. coming to the end of. relationship... we haven't got time | for stages. coming to the end of our conversation, you are in coalition government with the conservatives in 2010, you are a minister, cabinet secretary, that was five years and it cost you massively on the 2015 election. you have already said you wouldn't do a deal with the tories ever again as far as i can see. what about a potential deal with labour in the scenario of a hung parliament?— in the scenario of a hung parliament? in the scenario of a hung arliament? ., ., ., parliament? you are right to say that there _ parliament? you are right to say that there is _ parliament? you are right to say that there is no _ parliament? you are right to say that there is no way _ parliament? you are right to say that there is no way we - parliament? you are right to say that there is no way we could . parliament? you are right to say i that there is no way we could deal with the conservatives. i’m that there is no way we could deal with the conservatives. i'm asking about labour— with the conservatives. i'm asking about labour now. _ with the conservatives. i'm asking about labour now. they _ with the conservatives. i'm asking about labour now. they have - with the conservatives. i'm asking i about labour now. they have ruined our country- — about labour now. they have ruined our country- i— about labour now. they have ruined our country. i thought _ about labour now. they have ruined our country. i thought that - about labour now. they have ruined our country. i thought that all- about labour now. they have ruined our country. i thought that all my i our country. i thought that all my life, ifought them... you our country. i thought that all my life, i fought them. . ._ life, i fought them... you are in government _ life, i fought them... you are in government with _ life, i fought them... you are in government with some. - life, i fought them... you are in government with some. and - life, i fought them... you are in government with some. and we j life, i fought them... you are in - government with some. and we fought them in government _ government with some. and we fought them in government every _ government with some. and we fought them in government every day. - government with some. and we fought them in government every day. we - them in government every day. we managed to make britain a world leader in offshore wind. let’s managed to make britain a world leader in offshore wind.— leader in offshore wind. let's not no leader in offshore wind. let's not to over leader in offshore wind. let's not go over 13 _ leader in offshore wind. let's not go over 13 years _ leader in offshore wind. let's not go over 13 years ago. _ leader in offshore wind. let's not go over 13 years ago. at - leader in offshore wind. let's not go over 13 years ago. at the - leader in offshore wind. let's not - go over 13 years ago. at the moment i'm focused _ go over 13 years ago. at the moment i'm focused on — go over 13 years ago. at the moment i'm focused on removing _ go over 13 years ago. at the moment i'm focused on removing lots - go over 13 years ago. at the moment i'm focused on removing lots of- i'm focused on removing lots of conservative mps and electing as many liberal democrat mps as we can, thatis many liberal democrat mps as we can, that is what we are focusing on the nhs, the cost of living, the environment.— nhs, the cost of living, the environment. . ., ., ., environment. would you go into coalition government _

environment. would you go into coalition government with - environment. would you go into i coalition government with labour? one thing i've noticed in politics... one thing i've noticed in politics- - -_ one thing i've noticed in politics. . . one thing i've noticed in olitics... �* ., . politics... one thing i've noticed is ou politics... one thing i've noticed is you are _ politics... one thing i've noticed is you are not — politics... one thing i've noticed is you are not wanting _ politics... one thing i've noticed is you are not wanting to - politics... one thing i've noticedj is you are not wanting to answer this question. i is you are not wanting to answer this question-— this question. i have looked at a lot of liberal _ this question. i have looked at a lot of liberal democrat - this question. i have looked at a lot of liberal democrat leaders, | this question. i have looked at a - lot of liberal democrat leaders, and when they focus on the question, they lose focus on the task at hand, and the task i set myself when i became the leader was to beat as many conservative mps as possible and get them out of government, and thatis and get them out of government, and that is what i'm going to focus on. i'm not going to be distracted. and the more liberal democrat mps we have in the next parliament, the more influential we can be. more influentialwe can be. thank ou ve more influentialwe can be. thank you very much- — now let's hear from the labour party, and this week we're joined by darren jones. he'sjust been appointed to the shadow cabinet as shadow chief secretary to the treasury. but he's better known, and even went viral on tiktok, for his forensic questioning of ministers and business leaders when he was chair of the commons business select committee. let's have a quick look at his interrogation style. you in this mess because you don't

know what you're doing, or are you just a shameless criminal? you are hurting the country, prime minister. do you recognise the systemwide failure that is currently taking place at royal male is white —— at royal mail? today i'll be asking the questions, though! thanks forjoining us. we wa nt we want to see the railway being built, this is obviously hs2, but we have to look at the cost of everything we do. the next day, your shadow ministry, said we will build hsz shadow ministry, said we will build hs2 in full, and we will build northern powerhouse rail in full. on friday, your shadow chancellor rachel reeves said, i would like to see hs2 delivered in full, but we need to see what those costs are. are you able to clear this up? absolutely. the labour party would love to see hs2 built including the connection to leeds, we've long said

that. but you'll recognise the reason we're talking about this is because of leaks from the government. we don't have any decision yet from tory ministers. we just heard from the former transport secretary, he has no idea what's going on and he's a member of the government and cabinet. so, this is responding to leaks and rumours without any information being made available about where the project is at the moment. 50 available about where the pro'ect is at the momentfi at the moment. so is nick thomas-symonds - at the moment. so is nick thomas-symonds right, i at the moment. so is nicki thomas-symonds right, we at the moment. so is nick - thomas-symonds right, we will at the moment. so is nick _ thomas-symonds right, we will build thomas—symonds right, we will build it full? taste thomas-symonds right, we will build it full? . ., ~ ., , he it full? we would like to see it. he said, we it full? we would like to see it. he said. we will— it full? we would like to see it. he said, we will build _ it full? we would like to see it. he said, we will build which _ it full? we would like to see it. he said, we will build which is - it full? we would like to see it. he said, we will build which is to - it full? we would like to see it. he said, we will build which is to win. | said, we will build which is to win. yellow he means he would like the government to build it. no, he means labour will build it. i’ere government to build it. no, he means labour will build it.— labour will build it. i've spoken to nick and he _ labour will build it. i've spoken to nick and he was _ labour will build it. i've spoken to nick and he was very _ labour will build it. i've spoken to nick and he was very clear - labour will build it. i've spoken to nick and he was very clear that i labour will build it. i've spoken to| nick and he was very clear that we are supportive of hs2 being built. what we are responding to room and leak. this is a really important infrastructure project. what i say on your show matters because labour party hope to be in government next

year. when not going to make decisions about national infrastructure projects that involve tens of billions of pounds without all of the information being available. you and i have the same information that's been leaked from the government, we need to see the costs. ., ., ., , ., costs. the information is out there, the books. — costs. the information is out there, the books. the _ costs. the information is out there, the books, the obr _ costs. the information is out there, the books, the obr have _ costs. the information is out there, the books, the obr have got - costs. the information is out there, the books, the obr have got the i the books, the obr have got the figures of the projections of growth and the rest of it. the figures of the projections of growth and the rest of it.— and the rest of it. the costs are not out there, _ and the rest of it. the costs are not out there, we _ and the rest of it. the costs are not out there, we don't - and the rest of it. the costs are not out there, we don't know i and the rest of it. the costs are i not out there, we don't know what the cost overrun is, we don't know which bits are costing how much extra money, we don't even know what the conservatives in government are going to do about or extensions. we can't answer questions until they do so. 50 can't answer questions until they do so. ., ., , can't answer questions until they do so, ., ., , ., can't answer questions until they do so. ., ., , ., ., ., so. so do voters have a right to know what _ so. so do voters have a right to know what labour _ so. so do voters have a right to know what labour would - so. so do voters have a right to know what labour would do i so. so do voters have a right to i know what labour would do about the h52 know what labour would do about the hsz bid know what labour would do about the hs2 bid from birmingham to manchester before the election? absolutely. when the government makes a decision and publishes it we will consider it properly and announce it in a professional way. right. you're creating uncertainty, then. �* . right. you're creating uncertainty, then. �*, ., , then. it's the conservatives creatin: then. it's the conservatives creating uncertainty - then. it's the conservatives creating uncertainty and i then. it's the conservatives i creating uncertainty and that's then. it's the conservatives - creating uncertainty and that's why they have to answer the questions. i was pleased to asked grant shapps

these questions but it's reflective of the chaos that only rishi sunak seems to know what's going on three leak, rumour. that's not how you run a government. leak, rumour. that's not how you run a government-— a government. let's talk about what the im act a government. let's talk about what the impact might — a government. let's talk about what the impact might be _ a government. let's talk about what the impact might be if— a government. let's talk about what the impact might be if that - a government. let's talk about what the impact might be if that leg i a government. let's talk about what the impact might be if that leg of i the impact might be if that leg of h52 the impact might be if that leg of hs2 doesn't go ahead because both labour and the government has said it will create thousands and thousands ofjobs, it will make towns and cities in those key areas more attractive to business, it would boost economic growth. andy street says that's already happening. so, if you make a decision that you wouldn't go ahead with it either if you won the election, thosejobs with it either if you won the election, those jobs won't exist, that growth won't happen, correct? i that growth won't happen, correct? i understand why mayors, conservative and labour in the north, calling for this project to be built. that's why labour has said it would like to see it built but it's the conservatives who announced this 11 years ago, have allowed it to get completely out of hand are not published information to answer the questions. so what are the costs of not building it?— so what are the costs of not

buildint it? ~ ., , , building it? we don't know because the government _ building it? we don't know because the government hasn't _ building it? we don't know because the government hasn't published i the government hasn't published information. i'm happy to come back when we've got the information and can give a professional answer. any party that serious about government will not announce policy on tv on the basis of rumour and leaks. we'll make decisions in a professional way. hf make decisions in a professional wa . , ., make decisions in a professional wa . y ., . make decisions in a professional wa . , ., . ., make decisions in a professional wa . . ., ., make decisions in a professional wa. . ., way. if you decide not to continue the project _ way. if you decide not to continue the project then _ way. if you decide not to continue the project then you _ way. if you decide not to continue the project then you would - way. if you decide not to continue the project then you would be i way. if you decide not to continue i the project then you would be guilty of the great rail betrayal, which is what your shadow transport secretary accused the government of last week. well, we haven't made a decision because it's not for us to make the decision. ~ , because it's not for us to make the decision. . , ., , ., because it's not for us to make the decision. . , ., y., ., , because it's not for us to make the decision. . , ., ., , ., ., decision. why do you always wait for what the conservatives _ decision. why do you always wait for what the conservatives decide? i what the conservatives decide? whether it's hs2, triple—lock, before making your own decisions? because you need the information. there is no point assuming what the answers to questions will be when we don't have all of the information. sometimes it's about principles. i sometimes it's about principles. i agree but this is about tens of billions of pounds, the economic impact assessment a different parts of the country, rail projects. what i'm not going to do answer hypothetical questions. it has an

impact for the workers building this railway, for local communities, regional mayors. labour party is a serious party preparing for government and were going to do it in the proper way. flan government and were going to do it in the properway— in the proper way. can i ask about what kind of— in the proper way. can i ask about what kind of relationship - in the proper way. can i ask about what kind of relationship labour. in the proper way. can i ask about j what kind of relationship labour is in government would want with the eu? sir keir starmer says the brexit deal borisjohnson got wasn't a good deal borisjohnson got wasn't a good deal and when it comes up for review he says we will attempt to get a much better dealfor the uk. what does a better deal look like to you? well, that current trading relationship has not yet been fully implemented and the conservatives have already had to negotiate add—ons. the windsor framework on the horizon and other things. so what would a better deal look like? there are things we would want to negotiate around security cooperation, further science and research cooperation which we think is in the interest of business and wear at all possible to make it easierfor wear at all possible to make it easier for businesses to be able to sell their goods and services into the eu. d0 sell their goods and services into the eu. ,., ., . ., the eu. do you have evidence to su: est the eu. do you have evidence to suggest that _ the eu. do you have evidence to suggest that you _ the eu. do you have evidence to suggest that you would - the eu. do you have evidence to suggest that you would be i the eu. do you have evidence to | suggest that you would be willing the eu. do you have evidence to i suggest that you would be willing to give us what you call a better deal?

the eu is pretty annoyed with the british government. that the eu is pretty annoyed with the british government.— the eu is pretty annoyed with the british government. not about the trade and cooperation _ british government. not about the trade and cooperation agreement. | trade and cooperation agreement. they actually say it's a very good agreement as it is now.- they actually say it's a very good agreement as it is now. they would sa that agreement as it is now. they would say that because _ agreement as it is now. they would say that because they _ agreement as it is now. they would say that because they got _ agreement as it is now. they would say that because they got a - agreement as it is now. they would say that because they got a better. say that because they got a better deal than we did under boris johnson's deal. 50 deal than we did under boris johnson's deal.— deal than we did under boris johnson's deal. , ., �* ., , johnson's deal. so they won't really be u- for johnson's deal. so they won't really be up for changing _ johnson's deal. so they won't really be up for changing at. _ johnson's deal. so they won't really be up for changing at. we've - johnson's deal. so they won't really be up for changing at. we've got i johnson's deal. so they won't really be up for changing at. we've got to | be up for changing at. we've got to reset the relationship _ be up for changing at. we've got to reset the relationship because i be up for changing at. we've got to reset the relationship because of i reset the relationship because of the way the conservatives have handled it. that's why keir starmer was with president macron in paris last week, because we have to show that as a country outside of the eu and labour is not rejoining the eu, labour is not going to let the country rejoin the eu in the next parliament. we've got to have a better working relationship in the interest of the european economy where we can add value and in the interest of the uk economy. ierhtheztt interest of the uk economy. what would ou interest of the uk economy. what would you be _ interest of the uk economy. what would you be willing _ interest of the uk economy. what would you be willing to _ interest of the uk economy. what would you be willing to accept in return for that close relationship? there are some things that are in our mutual interest. for example, many european member states are interested in our capacity to produce hydrogen, electricity and connectors, work on offshore wind

turbines in the north sea. when i go to brussels, which i have done a lot, there are lots of eu countries that want to work with the uk on projects of mutual interest but because of the relationship in the very thin trading agreement boris johnson signed up to, they are not able to do so. you johnson signed up to, they are not able to do so-_ able to do so. you could alienate those people _ able to do so. you could alienate those people who _ able to do so. you could alienate those people who wanted - able to do so. you could alienatej those people who wanted brexit, able to do so. you could alienate i those people who wanted brexit, who voted for it, who you will need to voted for it, who you will need to vote for you at the next election. if the conservative party that made promises to people about the benefits of their brexit negotiations. it's the conservatives that negotiated a trade agreement that's not good enough. tt’s that negotiated a trade agreement that's not good enough.— that's not good enough. it's you suggesting _ that's not good enough. it's you suggesting a — that's not good enough. it's you suggesting a closer _ that's not good enough. it's you suggesting a closer relationshipj that's not good enough. it's you i suggesting a closer relationship in some kind of quid pro quo and that could alienate people. t some kind of quid pro quo and that could alienate people.— could alienate people. i think most --eole, could alienate people. i think most people. whether — could alienate people. i think most people, whether they _ could alienate people. i think most people, whether they voted - could alienate people. i think most people, whether they voted for i people, whether they voted for brexit or not, recognise it's in the interest of british business to be able to sell things they make to customers in europe. that's an entirely different to us being in the eu. labour is not saying will be part of it. but we want to make it easier for british business to sell things to european customers. [30

easier for british business to sell things to european customers. do you understand why _ things to european customers. do you understand why some _ things to european customers. do you understand why some voters - things to european customers. do you understand why some voters might i things to european customers. do you| understand why some voters might not trust what sir keir starmer says about brexit because he's changed his position so much over the last few years?— few years? keir starmer had a ersonal few years? keir starmer had a personal view _ few years? keir starmer had a personal view which _ few years? keir starmer had a personal view which is - few years? keir starmer had a personal view which is the i few years? keir starmer had a | personal view which is the view few years? keir starmer had a i personal view which is the view of the labour party in the past. we lost an election in 2019 very significantly. the labour party has changed under keir starmer, its listening... 50 changed under keir starmer, its listening- - -_ listening... so he's changed his principles? _ listening... so he's changed his principles? it's _ listening... so he's changed his principles? it's not _ listening... so he's changed his principles? it's not about i principles? it's not about principles. _ principles? it's not about principles, it's _ principles? it's not about principles, it's about - principles? it's not about l principles, it's about acting principles? it's not about - principles, it's about acting in the best interest of the country. no political party are saying for the next election they will take the uk back into the eu because practically it's not a viable option on the table. ,, . it's not a viable option on the table. i. . it's not a viable option on the table-_ no- i it's not a viable option on the table. . no. �* , table. do you want to? no. because ou voted table. do you want to? no. because you voted remain _ table. do you want to? no. because you voted remain and _ table. do you want to? no. because you voted remain and all _ table. do you want to? no. because you voted remain and all the - table. do you want to? no. because you voted remain and all the rest i table. do you want to? no. because you voted remain and all the rest of| you voted remain and all the rest of it. h you voted remain and all the rest of it. �* . ., , ., , you voted remain and all the rest of it. i did. but that option is not on the table either _ it. i did. but that option is not on the table either for _ it. i did. but that option is not on the table either for a _ it. i did. but that option is not on the table either for a uk - it. i did. but that option is not on the table either for a uk or- it. i did. but that option is not on the table either for a uk or the i it. i did. but that option is not on i the table either for a uk or the eu. the table eitherfor a uk or the eu. thank you very much for being with us today. darrenjones, shadow chief secretary to the treasury. it's nearly ten o'clock and we've had a very full programme today, but let me take you back to earlier

in the show when we asked grant shapps about hsz. is this affordable under current circumstances? i'm absolutely confident for example that when those statements were made nobody knew we would be in a war in europe right now. all of the consequences, all of the costs and inflation. any government that doesn't go back and look at it is crazy. thank you for getting in touch, and lots of you have been emailing. matthew walker says: when hsi has been completed in the south east in full, how can elected officials do this to the north and midlands? thanks everyone for getting in touch.

the lib dems, you were once a member of their party. their position on the eu, how do you read it? ed davey made it sound — the eu, how do you read it? ed davey made it sound like _ the eu, how do you read it? ed davey made it sound like he _ the eu, how do you read it? ed davey made it sound like he was _ the eu, how do you read it? ed davey made it sound like he was going - the eu, how do you read it? ed davey made it sound like he was going to i made it sound like he was going to give us a four stage explanation of the lib dem policy on the eu, phase one, phase two. ijust think having listened to ed davey and to the new shadow chief secretary, i just feel there is a really open goal for going into the next election for any party that's brave enough to do this. don't say we will not rejoin the eu. we will notjoin the eu but we don't want the thin trading relationship, therefore we will go back... to the argument of 2019, we will rejoin in some way the customs union and the single market. that way they can say the top line is we are not rejoining but they can sort it out. i are not re'oining but they can sort it out. .., ., are not re'oining but they can sort

it out. ., ., it out. i campaigned for the norway lus it out. i campaigned for the norway plus solution _ it out. i campaigned for the norway plus solution after— it out. i campaigned for the norway plus solution after brexit _ it out. i campaigned for the norway plus solution after brexit because l it out. i campaigned for the norway plus solution after brexit because i | plus solution after brexit because i thought— plus solution after brexit because i thought it — plus solution after brexit because i thought it would respect the verdict of the _ thought it would respect the verdict of the referendum, because we would be out _ of the referendum, because we would be out of— of the referendum, because we would be out of the eu, while creating a small_ be out of the eu, while creating a small sea — be out of the eu, while creating a small sea conservative period of ten or 15 years _ small sea conservative period of ten or 15 years during which we would be in the _ or 15 years during which we would be in the single — or 15 years during which we would be in the single market in customs union— in the single market in customs union and — in the single market in customs union and give you an opportunity to the john— union and give you an opportunity to the john simm government which is to have a _ the john simm government which is to have a plan— the john simm government which is to have a plan for brexit. if the john simm government which is to have a plan for brexit.— have a plan for brexit. if you're in the single — have a plan for brexit. if you're in the single market _ have a plan for brexit. if you're in the single market and _ have a plan for brexit. if you're in the single market and customs i have a plan for brexit. if you're in . the single market and customs union you're _ the single market and customs union you're pretty— the single market and customs union you're pretty much _ the single market and customs union you're pretty much in _ the single market and customs union you're pretty much in the _ the single market and customs union you're pretty much in the eu - the single market and customs union you're pretty much in the eu with - the single market and customs union you're pretty much in the eu with no| you're pretty much in the eu with no say whatsoever _ you're pretty much in the eu with no say whatsoever stop _ you're pretty much in the eu with no say whatsoever stop the _ you're pretty much in the eu with no say whatsoever stop the agreementl you're pretty much in the eu with no. say whatsoever stop the agreement is deemed _ say whatsoever stop the agreement is deemed to _ say whatsoever stop the agreement is deemed to be — say whatsoever stop the agreement is deemed to be best— say whatsoever stop the agreement is deemed to be best in— say whatsoever stop the agreement is deemed to be best in class— say whatsoever stop the agreement is deemed to be best in class for- say whatsoever stop the agreement is deemed to be best in class for trade l deemed to be best in class for trade and i_ deemed to be best in class for trade and i trade — deemed to be best in class for trade and i trade has _ deemed to be best in class for trade and i trade has increased _ deemed to be best in class for trade and i trade has increased now- deemed to be best in class for trade and i trade has increased now than. and i trade has increased now than back before — and i trade has increased now than back before covid _ and i trade has increased now than back before covid times. _ and i trade has increased now than back before covid times.— and i trade has increased now than back before covid times. cross talk. we are not in — back before covid times. cross talk. we are not in recession, _ back before covid times. cross talk. we are not in recession, germany - back before covid times. cross talk. we are not in recession, germany is i we are not in recession, germany is in recession— we are not in recession, germany is in recession stop _ we are not in recession, germany is in recession stop you _ we are not in recession, germany is in recession stop you do _ we are not in recession, germany is in recession stop you do not- we are not in recession, germany is in recession stop you do not have i we are not in recession, germany is in recession stop you do not have ai in recession stop you do not have a single _ in recession stop you do not have a single trade — in recession stop you do not have a single trade agreement _ in recession stop you do not have a single trade agreement that's i in recession stop you do not have a single trade agreement that's its i single trade agreement that's its salt _ single trade agreement that's its salt. ., ., ., ,, .,

salt. you cannot do h52, you have absolutely — salt. you cannot do h52, you have absolutely no _ salt. you cannot do h52, you have absolutely no plan. _ salt. you cannot do h52, you have absolutely no plan. cross i salt. you cannot do h52, you have absolutely no plan. cross talk. if ou talk absolutely no plan. cross talk. if you talk over— absolutely no plan. cross talk. if you talk over each _ absolutely no plan. cross talk. if you talk over each other _ absolutely no plan. cross talk. if you talk over each other no i absolutely no plan. cross talk. if you talk over each other no one i absolutely no plan. cross talk. if| you talk over each other no one can hear what you're saying. it’s you talk over each other no one can hear what you're saying.— hear what you're saying. it's very sim - le. hear what you're saying. it's very simple- there — hear what you're saying. it's very simple. there is _ hear what you're saying. it's very simple. there is still _ hear what you're saying. it's very simple. there is still no - hear what you're saying. it's very simple. there is still no plan i hear what you're saying. it's very simple. there is still no plan for| simple. there is still no plan for making — simple. there is still no plan for making brexit work and there is no plan by— making brexit work and there is no plan by labour for making... gr making brexit work and there is no plan by labour for making... or the lib dems- — plan by labour for making... or the lib dems. so. _ plan by labour for making... or the lib dems. so, a _ plan by labour for making... or the lib dems. so, a norway— plan by labour for making... or the lib dems. so, a norway plus i lib dems. so, a norway plus agreement— lib dems. so, a norway plus agreement would _ lib dems. so, a norway plus agreement would be i lib dems. so, a norway plus agreement would be a i lib dems. so, a norway plus i agreement would be a halfway house that would give you time to plan for hard brexit, soft brexit, whatever kind of— hard brexit, soft brexit, whatever kind of brexit you want. it is safe small— kind of brexit you want. it is safe small c_ kind of brexit you want. it is safe small c conservative solution. keir starmer says _ small c conservative solution. keir starmer says it's _ small c conservative solution. keir starmer says it's a _ small c conservative solution. lie: " starmer says it's a thin small c conservative solution. iris: " starmer says it's a thin brexit small c conservative solution. k9 :' starmer says it's a thin brexit and he's going to deliver a fat brexit. my he's going to deliver a fat brexit. my position is we want to get brexit and there is no such thing. i my position is we want to get brexit and there is no such thing.- and there is no such thing. i would sa we've and there is no such thing. i would say we've got _ and there is no such thing. i would say we've got a — and there is no such thing. i would say we've got a pretty _ and there is no such thing. i would say we've got a pretty good i and there is no such thing. i would| say we've got a pretty good brexit. the tca _ say we've got a pretty good brexit. the tca is — say we've got a pretty good brexit. the tca is a — say we've got a pretty good brexit. the tca is a good _ say we've got a pretty good brexit. the tca is a good deal, _ say we've got a pretty good brexit. the tca is a good deal, it's - say we've got a pretty good brexit. the tca is a good deal, it's not i the tca is a good deal, it's not perfect, — the tca is a good deal, it's not perfect, im— the tca is a good deal, it's not perfect, i'm annoyed _ the tca is a good deal, it's not perfect, i'm annoyed about i the tca is a good deal, it's not i perfect, i'm annoyed about what's happened — perfect, i'm annoyed about what's happened in— perfect, i'm annoyed about what's happened in northern _ perfect, i'm annoyed about what's happened in northern ireland, i perfect, i'm annoyed about what's happened in northern ireland, the windsor— happened in northern ireland, the windsor framework— happened in northern ireland, the windsor framework in _ happened in northern ireland, the windsor framework in my - happened in northern ireland, the windsor framework in my view, . happened in northern ireland, the windsor framework in my view, i i windsor framework in my view, i voted _ windsor framework in my view, i voted against _ windsor framework in my view, i voted against it, _ windsor framework in my view, i voted against it, is— windsor framework in my view, i voted against it, is not—

voted against it, is not satisfactory _ voted against it, is not satisfactory to - voted against it, is not satisfactory to leave i voted against it, is not satisfactory to leave a | voted against it, is not. satisfactory to leave a bit voted against it, is not- satisfactory to leave a bit of the uk in _ satisfactory to leave a bit of the uk in an— satisfactory to leave a bit of the uk in an in— satisfactory to leave a bit of the uk in an in and _ satisfactory to leave a bit of the uk in an in and out— satisfactory to leave a bit of the uk in an in and out situation. i satisfactory to leave a bit of the uk in an in and out situation. gill uk in an in and out situation. whole other programme could uk in an in and out situation.- whole other programme could be uk in an in and out situation- whole other programme could be to that. that's all we've got time for. thanks to you, my panel, for coming on today, and thanks to all of you for watching. if you want more, i'll be taking laura's place on the weekend newscast with paddy o'connell. that will be available on bbc sounds from lunchtime. part three of laura's documentary state of chaos is on bbc one tomorrow at nine, or on iplayerfrom first thing in the morning. and as ever there's lots to chew over on the bbc news website. have a lovely rest of your sunday. thank you for watching. goodbye.

live from london, this is bbc news. the fate of ethnic armenians in disputed nagorno—karabakh is hanging in the balance, as their leaders say most will likely leave their historic homeland now controlled by azerbaijan. defence secretary geoff grant shapps tells the bbc it would be crazy not to reconsider how the hs2 rail line proceeds. and, nasa awaits the return of a spacecraft carrying asteroid dust that could reveal new details about how the planets were formed. after travelling billions of miles through space, the capsule is going to land somewhere over here in the utah desert come rain or shine.