japan — the bullet train, france — the tgv network, england — hsz, stuck on a turntable. why do we find infrastructure projects so tortuous?

the government, yet again, is considering putting hs2 ina siding. was it destined to fail from the start? we'll be joined by a former senior executive in network rail, a former chief scientific advisor to the department of transport,and a leading member of the indepdendent review into hsz, who resiled from the report's conclusion that hs2 should go ahead describing it as "the wrong and expensive solution". also tonight, old kosovan serbian emnity flares up into a gun battle in which at least four die — are the two countries�* chances ofjoining the eu fading fast? we'll be speaking to the kosovan interior minister, also tonight, hang on to your hats... from police boxes to deloreans,

we love a time travel story. steven steve n m offat steven moffat is here to tell us how he does it. good evening. hsz. it's hard to think of a "grand project" so bedevilled from the get go — the channel tunnel, wildly over budget, was an eventual success story, linking us under the sea to europe, but we are having trouble linking london to birmingham, never mind manchester. so much trouble, that rishi sunak is considering cutting off the northern leg completely, something borisjohnson called "total treasury—driven nonsense." and that it was the height of insanity to announce the potential axing of hs2just before the party conference in manchester. andy street, the influential tory mayor of the west midlands has also been vocal in his opposition to sending hs2 off the rails again — after all, in 2021, the planned eastern leg between birmingham and leeds was axed. so is hs2 going to become a symbol of british failure? here's ben.

the chancellor, jeremy hunt, says hs2�*s costs are out of control and the former transport secretary, grant shapps, says it would be crazy for the government not to be reconsidering proceeding with the project because of that. are they right, or would stopping or pausing construction at this stage represent a false economy? let's start with the costs. you can see from the official estimates how they've risen over the past decade, up from £45 billion in 2011 to more than £80 billion in 2019. and an independent review in 2019 suggested more than £100 billion. and that's indeed what, despite cuts in recent years, the latest official estimate is expected to confirm. so what does this do to the value for money of the transport project? this shows the official estimates of the benefit cost ratio of the scheme. over time, anything above one means that benefits are greater than costs, and you can see that the ratio has been above one, but using the £100 billion

estimate takes it below. so, in the government's own criteria, that would be poor value for money. so why have costs spiralled and does the uk have a particular problem with infrastructure costs? the answer appears to be yes. let's show it through our global tracker lens. this shows estimates from the financial times of the cost of building a mile of rail track based on recent rail projects. the uk at £262 million per mile, is farahead ofjapan, italy, france and germany. so why the difference? well, experts say one reason seems to be the uk's planning system and the power of local lobby groups. than many international high speed rail projects. and part of that tunnelling is to avoid objections from local people who don't want their views spoiled.

don't want something cutting off access to a field or something. the problem is that's very expensive and that can really add costs to a project. but another broader factor is the stop start nature of government spending on infrastructure projects in this country. to take one example, this shows the number of kilometres of track being electrified in germany, a constant rate of around 200 kilometres per year. yet this shows the rate in the uk. as you can see, a pattern of feast and famine. that lack of consistency adds to costs by eroding skills in the infrastructure construction industry. the skills you need to build major infrastructure are very specialised. they require quite in—depth training. but what incentive do you have to acquire those skills if you might have one project where you're going to be used on, but you don't know if there's going to be a third, fourth, fifth project that as a result means that people don't train or, when they do train, those skills get atrophied.

so the government can legitimately make the case on pure economic grounds that hs2 is looking like poor value for public money and point out that it's what's known as a sunk cost fallacy. to argue that simply because so much has been spent so far, it would be a waste of money not to carry on. it's true the money could be allocated to other transport projects which are better value for public money, like an east—west line in the north of england known as northern powerhouse rail, or improving existing rail and road infrastructure. yet there are other important economic considerations to the parts of the hs2 project that are apparently under threat. the birmingham—manchester leg are the very bits of a higher estimated value for money and there are wider economic costs, as we've seen associated with government starting and stopping big transport infrastructure projects. and nick's here to give us the latest from westminster. what's going on? today, rishi sunak wasn't exactly sounding like hs2�*s greatest fan

forced up he was asked about the speculation over a delay or scrapping of the second leg from birmingham to manchester and he said is committed to levelling up, which is committed to levelling up, which is obviously the entire theme of h52, but is obviously the entire theme of hs2, but he said thatjust about big rail projects, it could be improved local bus services in dealing with the potholes. it really does look like this prime minister is going to need some very serious convincing to allow that blow me at a manchester leg to go ahead as planned. what we know is that he and the chancellor, jeremy hunt, are taking a very good look at the close of this ahead of the autumn spending round. why have the autumn spending round. why have the costs written? there is the reason ben is talking about, infrastructure projects in this country, costs always go up, we have a dramatic inflation and there is the legacy of the pandemic on our public finances. but it rather feels that we have a government of two chancellors, the current chancellor and the former chancellor, who

perhaps hasn't given up those habits of being very careful with the pennies, which means perhaps we don't have the normal dynamic at the top of a cabinet which is you have the prime minister saying, i want my vision and the chancellor saying, careful and watch the pennies, and you slightly feel that, into that space, george osborne and michael heseltine watched today, filling in that prime ministerial hole and saying, if you cancelled the second leg, it would amount to gross act of vandalism. 0ther conservative mps are very supportive of delay and say, why can't we spend the money on the northern powerhouse rail, the line from leeds to manchester to liverpool, which also was promising, if you don't have the birmingham to magister leg, that wouldn't work. joining me now is lord tony berkeley, a labour peer and a leading hs2 critic, professor rod smith, a former chief scientific advisor to the department for transport and professor of railway engineering, and anna—jane hunter, a rail operations expert and former director at network rail.

thank you very much for coming in. we invented rail travel. it's hard to imagine that now. why do we find it so hard with grand projects, financially, attention span, management problems? where does the main problem life? is management problems? where does the main problem life?— main problem life? is almost impossible — main problem life? is almost impossible to _ main problem life? is almost impossible to put _ main problem life? is almost impossible to put one - main problem life? is almost impossible to put one fingerl main problem life? is almost l impossible to put one finger on main problem life? is almost - impossible to put one finger on the main problem. however, we have made an abject failure of winning hearts and minds on this project. to me, thatis and minds on this project. to me, that is the biggest single thing that is the biggest single thing that should have been happening for the there is a sign at the shin cancel, the high bullet train station in tokyo, which said, this railway is a product of the wisdom and foresight of the japanese people. and that's very inclusive argument, people get behind that point. we haven't begun to explain the possibilities at advantages and remodelling of the country that a high—speed railway system could

bring the it's not too late. we could start doing that now but it needs a big effort to overcome the doubters. it needs a big effort to overcome the doubters. ., , . ., , ., doubters. it would be crazy to live that [en ? doubters. it would be crazy to live that leg? it _ doubters. it would be crazy to live that leg? it would be _ doubters. it would be crazy to live that leg? it would be crazy. - that leg? it would be crazy. for once i completely _ that leg? it would be crazy. for once i completely agree - that leg? it would be crazy. for once i completely agree with i that leg? it would be crazy. for. once i completely agree with boris johnson and i never thought i would say that. but johnson and i never thought i would sa that. �* , , , ~ johnson and i never thought i would sa that. , , , say that. but is this the sunk cost falla at say that. but is this the sunk cost fallacy at work? _ say that. but is this the sunk cost fallacy at work? nick _ say that. but is this the sunk cost fallacy at work? nick i'm - say that. but is this the sunk cost fallacy at work? nick i'm afraid i l fallacy at work? nick i'm afraid i don't agree with rod, i have great respect for his views but, in this case, we have a project where the cost, i believe, is case, we have a pro'ect where the cost, i believe,— cost, i believe, is now 180 billion, was the 100 _ cost, i believe, is now 180 billion, was the 100 you _ cost, i believe, is now 180 billion, was the 100 you quoted, - cost, i believe, is now 180 billion, was the 100 you quoted, and - cost, i believe, is now 180 billion, was the 100 you quoted, and it i was the 100 you quoted, and it doesn't — was the 100 you quoted, and it doesn't actually deliver what all these _ doesn't actually deliver what all these people in the north are now shouting — these people in the north are now shouting that it should deliver, because — shouting that it should deliver, because the railways in the north are in_ because the railways in the north are in a _ because the railways in the north are in a very— because the railways in the north are in a very bad state, as one contributor _ are in a very bad state, as one contributor said. my view is that the railways in the north and the midlands — the railways in the north and the midlands should be improved with perhaps— midlands should be improved with perhaps 50 billion of this 180 two

the level— perhaps 50 billion of this 180 two the level that we have in the south it for— the level that we have in the south it for so— the level that we have in the south it for so long. lots more electrification, lots more reliability.— electrification, lots more reliabili . �* , �* ., , reliability. but isn't a bigger oint reliability. but isn't a bigger point that — reliability. but isn't a bigger point that we _ reliability. but isn't a bigger point that we are, _ reliability. but isn't a bigger point that we are, in - reliability. but isn't a bigger point that we are, in a - reliability. but isn't a bigger i point that we are, in a sense, reliability. but isn't a bigger - point that we are, in a sense, the laughing stock? we can't get it together to make a good plan and, if we think we've got a plan, we can't execute it properly. i we think we've got a plan, we can't execute it properly.— execute it properly. i mean, i criticised those _ execute it properly. i mean, i criticised those who have - criticised those who have been pushing — criticised those who have been pushing this, because i think, to some _ pushing this, because i think, to some extent, it's a vanity project for people — some extent, it's a vanity project for people to get from manchester to london _ for people to get from manchester to london more quickly to dip what is more _ london more quickly to dip what is more important is people being able to get to _ more important is people being able to get to school and college, work sixjohs, _ to get to school and college, work sixjobs, go east, west in the north and the _ sixjobs, go east, west in the north and the midlands, and the money should he — and the midlands, and the money should be spent on that. if they have _ should be spent on that. if they have got the money for both, lovely, but i'm _ have got the money for both, lovely, but i'm not sure we do. we have been prioritising _ but i'm not sure we do. we have been prioritising this vanity project when — prioritising this vanity project when we _ prioritising this vanity project when we can work on the train. it goes _ when we can work on the train. it goes very— when we can work on the train. it goes very fast. but we are not going

to have _ goes very fast. but we are not going to have it— goes very fast. but we are not going to have it for— goes very fast. but we are not going to have it for daily use to get us out of— to have it for daily use to get us out of the car.— out of the car. does the idea of a vanity preject _ out of the car. does the idea of a vanity project chime with - out of the car. does the idea of a | vanity project chime with you? do you think this is what it has been about what you think this is what it has been about whar ., �* you think this is what it has been about wha— about what i don't think it is. i think it's _ about what i don't think it is. i think it's needed. it's - about what i don't think it is. i l think it's needed. it's quite right that the — think it's needed. it's quite right that the north of _ think it's needed. it's quite right that the north of england - think it's needed. it's quite right that the north of england was i that the north of england was in need _ that the north of england was in need investment, _ that the north of england was in need investment, but— that the north of england was in need investment, but i don't. need investment, but i don't accept that we have — need investment, but i don't accept that we have to choose _ need investment, but i don't accept that we have to choose between - need investment, but i don't accept. that we have to choose between being able to _ that we have to choose between being able to travel— that we have to choose between being able to travel in — that we have to choose between being able to travel in and amongst - able to travel in and amongst the great _ able to travel in and amongst the great cities of _ able to travel in and amongst the great cities of the north - able to travel in and amongst thei great cities of the north and being able to— great cities of the north and being able to get out _ great cities of the north and being able to get out of them _ great cities of the north and being able to get out of them and back. able to get out of them and back into them — able to get out of them and back into them to travel _ able to get out of them and back into them to travel south. the i able to get out of them and back i into them to travel south. the uk is really london — into them to travel south. the uk is really london centric and _ into them to travel south. the uk is really london centric and i think - really london centric and i think the north— really london centric and i think the north of england _ really london centric and i think the north of england deserves. really london centric and i thinki the north of england deserves to be a part of— the north of england deserves to be a part of that with _ the north of england deserves to be a part of that with a reliable, - a part of that with a reliable, high speed _ a part of that with a reliable, high speed and better— a part of that with a reliable, high i speed and better capacity delivered railway, and — speed and better capacity delivered railway, and that's what _ speed and better capacity delivered railway, and that's what hsz is- railway, and that's what hsz is about. do _ railway, and that's what h52 is about. ,, ., railway, and that's what h52 is about. i. ., , .,, about. do you agree the problem was we didn't cheerlead _ about. do you agree the problem was we didn't cheerlead in this _ we didn't cheerlead in this country and to bring people on board with the idea of this big rail project that was something to be proud of? either his had an identity crisis from _ either his had an identity crisis from the — either his had an identity crisis from the start, _ either his had an identity crisis from the start, the _ either his had an identity crisis from the start, the focus - either his had an identity crisis from the start, the focus on i either his had an identity crisisl from the start, the focus on the speed _

from the start, the focus on the speed elenrent— from the start, the focus on the speed element was _ from the start, the focus on the speed element was an - from the start, the focus on the speed element was an error - from the start, the focus on the - speed element was an error from the beginning. _ speed element was an error from the beginning. the — speed element was an error from the beginning, the capacity— speed element was an error from the beginning, the capacity element - speed element was an error from the beginning, the capacity element is, l beginning, the capacity element is, i beginning, the capacity element is, ithink. _ beginning, the capacity element is, ithink. far— beginning, the capacity element is, i think, far more _ beginning, the capacity element is, i think, far more important, - beginning, the capacity element is, i think, far more important, and . beginning, the capacity element is, | i think, far more important, and the connectivity — i think, far more important, and the connectivity elements— i think, far more important, and the connectivity elements of— i think, far more important, and the connectivity elements of what - i think, far more important, and the connectivity elements of what it - i think, far more important, and the connectivity elements of what it can| connectivity elements of what it can deliver _ connectivity elements of what it can deliver but — connectivity elements of what it can deliver but it— connectivity elements of what it can deliver. but it became _ connectivity elements of what it can deliver. but it became about- connectivity elements of what it can| deliver. but it became about speed, and that's— deliver. but it became about speed, and that's not— deliver. but it became about speed, and that's not the _ deliver. but it became about speed, and that's not the main— deliver. but it became about speed, and that's not the main thing. - and that's not the main thing. where do ou and that's not the main thing. where do you stand — and that's not the main thing. where do you stand on _ and that's not the main thing. where do you stand on the _ and that's not the main thing. where do you stand on the birmingham - and that's not the main thing. where do you stand on the birmingham to l do you stand on the birmingham to manchester leg?— manchester leg? absolutely, it should be built, _ manchester leg? absolutely, it should be built, the _ manchester leg? absolutely, it should be built, the quicker- manchester leg? absolutely, it| should be built, the quicker the better — should be built, the quicker the better plan. _ should be built, the quicker the better. plan, lord _ should be built, the quicker the better. plan, lord adonis, - should be built, the quicker the better. plan, lord adonis, in. should be built, the quicker the better. plan, lord adonis, in ai better. plan, lord adonis, in a tweet— better. plan, lord adonis, in a tweet today, _ better. plan, lord adonis, in a tweet today, and _ better. plan, lord adonis, in a tweet today, and he _ better. plan, lord adonis, in a tweet today, and he was - better. plan, lord adonis, in a tweet today, and he was an i better. plan, lord adonis, in a . tweet today, and he was an octet of h52, said. — tweet today, and he was an octet of h52, said, thank— tweet today, and he was an octet of h52, said, thank china _ tweet today, and he was an octet of h52, said, thank china has- tweet today, and he was an octet of h52, said, thank china has more . hsz, said, thank china has more than 20,000 _ hsz, said, thank china has more than 20,000 miles— hsz, said, thank china has more than 20,000 miles of— hsz, said, thank china has more than 20,000 miles of high—speed - hsz, said, thank china has more than 20,000 miles of high—speed rail- hsz, said, thank china has more than 20,000 miles of high—speed rail in l 20,000 miles of high—speed rail in the time _ 20,000 miles of high—speed rail in the time it's— 20,000 miles of high—speed rail in the time it's taken _ 20,000 miles of high—speed rail in the time it's taken us— 20,000 miles of high—speed rail in the time it's taken us to _ 20,000 miles of high—speed rail in the time it's taken us to build - 20,000 miles of high—speed rail in the time it's taken us to build 140 i the time it's taken us to build 140 miles _ the time it's taken us to build 140 miles. in— the time it's taken us to build 140 miles. ., _, ., , ., miles. in china, conditions are different. _ miles. in china, conditions are different, planning _ miles. in china, conditions are different, planning is - miles. in china, conditions are different, planning is totally i different, planning is totally different, planning is totally different, but it is extraordinary, 20,000 miles... {th different, but it is extraordinary, 20,000 miles...— 20,000 miles... of the figure is creater 20,000 miles... of the figure is greater than _ 20,000 miles... of the figure is greater than that. _ 20,000 miles... of the figure is greater than that. they - 20,000 miles... of the figure is greater than that. they have - 20,000 miles... of the figure is. greater than that. they have built 40,000 kilometres of railway since 1990. they started from zero with high—speed railways. spain has built 4000 kilometres. countries like

taiwan, korea, pushing head. why are they so different? we have no leadership. we have nobody who has really committed to this. you leadership. we have nobody who has really committed to this.— really committed to this. you mean olitical really committed to this. you mean political leadership _ really committed to this. you mean political leadership or _ really committed to this. you mean political leadership or the _ political leadership or the industry as well? {th political leadership or the industry as well? , ,., .., political leadership or the industry aswell? ., , , as well? of its political leadership and leadership — as well? of its political leadership and leadership from _ as well? of its political leadership and leadership from the _ as well? of its political leadership and leadership from the industry, | and leadership from the industry, the inability of the politicians to say how this project will lead to economic growth. it's a necessary condition for economic growth. bath condition for economic growth. both my colleagues _ condition for economic growth. both my colleagues are _ condition for economic growth. both my colleagues are correct, if we had limited _ my colleagues are correct, if we had limited funding, but the fact remains _ limited funding, but the fact remains we don't appear to have unlimited — remains we don't appear to have unlimited funding so somebody needs to be a _ unlimited funding so somebody needs to be a choice. i think one of the things— to be a choice. i think one of the things that — to be a choice. i think one of the things that has been shown up by hsz is that— things that has been shown up by hsz is that it _ things that has been shown up by hsz is that it would be much better if we had _ is that it would be much better if we had a — is that it would be much better if we had a larger number of smaller projects. _ we had a larger number of smaller projects, electrification all over the place and other improvements to the place and other improvements to the track— the place and other improvements to the track and we should be much better— the track and we should be much better at— the track and we should be much better at controlling them than we

are this _ better at controlling them than we are this massive hsz. isn�*t better at controlling them than we are this massive h52._ are this massive h52. isn't it embarrassing _ are this massive h52. isn't it embarrassing that _ are this massive h52. isn't it embarrassing that we - are this massive h52. isn't it embarrassing that we can't l are this massive h52. isn't it - embarrassing that we can't control it? that we have failed so miserably? it it? that we have failed so miserably?— it? that we have failed so miserabl ? , ., , , it? that we have failed so miserabl ? , ., ,, �*, miserably? it is embarrassing. it's been going — miserably? it is embarrassing. it's been going on _ miserably? it is embarrassing. it's been going on a — miserably? it is embarrassing. it's been going on a long _ miserably? it is embarrassing. it's been going on a long time - miserably? it is embarrassing. it's been going on a long time to - miserably? it is embarrassing. it's been going on a long time to dip l miserably? it is embarrassing. it's i been going on a long time to dip but the problem is, unless we do something now, we are either going to not— something now, we are either going to not have — something now, we are either going to not have any decent railways in the north— to not have any decent railways in the north for over a long time or we are going _ the north for over a long time or we are going to— the north for over a long time or we are going to have to cut some of the h52~ _ what about the idea to delay for seven years, is it reasonable or an economic policy that we will be able to afford it because the price will go up? we had the idea that the specialised training will be lost to us. , . specialised training will be lost to us, , ., ., , specialised training will be lost to us. , ., ., , ., specialised training will be lost to us, , ., ., , ., ., us. the brain drain is a real problem — us. the brain drain is a real problem for— us. the brain drain is a real problem for the _ us. the brain drain is a real problem for the industry i us. the brain drain is a real. problem for the industry and us. the brain drain is a real- problem for the industry and we have had this— problem for the industry and we have had this for— problem for the industry and we have had this for years, _ problem for the industry and we have had this for years, people _ problem for the industry and we have had this for years, people go- had this for years, people go abroad, _ had this for years, people go abroad, to _ had this for years, people go abroad, to other— had this for years, people go abroad, to other industries, i had this for years, people go. abroad, to other industries, and had this for years, people go- abroad, to other industries, and we need _ abroad, to other industries, and we need to— abroad, to other industries, and we need to retain — abroad, to other industries, and we need to retain that _ abroad, to other industries, and we need to retain that talent _ abroad, to other industries, and we need to retain that talent and - abroad, to other industries, and we need to retain that talent and part. need to retain that talent and part of the _ need to retain that talent and part of the h52— need to retain that talent and part of the h52 legacy— need to retain that talent and part of the h52 legacy was _ need to retain that talent and part of the h52 legacy was supposed i need to retain that talent and part| of the h52 legacy was supposed to need to retain that talent and part i of the h52 legacy was supposed to be things— of the h52 legacy was supposed to be things like _ of the h52 legacy was supposed to be things like the — of the h52 legacy was supposed to be things like the national— of the h52 legacy was supposed to be things like the national skills - things like the national skills academy— things like the national skills academy for— things like the national skills academy for rail, _ things like the national skills academy for rail, retaining l things like the national skills i academy for rail, retaining some of

that long-term _ academy for rail, retaining some of that long—term supply— academy for rail, retaining some of that long—term supply chain - that long—term supply chain involvement _ that long—term supply chain involvement and _ that long—term supply chain involvement and they- that long—term supply chain involvement and they needl that long—term supply chain i involvement and they need that, that long—term supply chain - involvement and they need that, they thrive _ involvement and they need that, they thrive on _ involvement and they need that, they thrive on certainty _ involvement and they need that, they thrive on certainty in _ involvement and they need that, they thrive on certainty in the _ involvement and they need that, they thrive on certainty in the supply- thrive on certainty in the supply chain _ thrive on certainty in the supply chain putting _ thrive on certainty in the supply chain. putting it— thrive on certainty in the supply chain. putting it off— thrive on certainty in the supply chain. putting it off for- thrive on certainty in the supply chain. putting it off for seven i chain. putting it off for seven years. — chain. putting it off for seven years. the _ chain. putting it off for seven years, the danger— chain. putting it off for seven years, the danger is- chain. putting it off for seven years, the danger is that i chain. putting it off for seven years, the danger is that the | chain. putting it off for seven - years, the danger is that the money is not _ years, the danger is that the money is not there — years, the danger is that the money is not there and _ years, the danger is that the money is not there and we _ years, the danger is that the money is not there and we lose _ years, the danger is that the money is not there and we lose the - years, the danger is that the money is not there and we lose the skills i is not there and we lose the skills and by— is not there and we lose the skills and by and — is not there and we lose the skills and byand from _ is not there and we lose the skills and by and from business - is not there and we lose the skills and by and from business and i is not there and we lose the skills and by and from business and the supply— and by and from business and the supply chain — and by and from business and the supply chain and _ and by and from business and the supply chain and that _ and by and from business and the supply chain and that would - and by and from business and the supply chain and that would be i and by and from business and the supply chain and that would be ai supply chain and that would be a terrible — supply chain and that would be a terrible outcome. _ supply chain and that would be a terrible outcome. if— supply chain and that would be a terrible outcome.— supply chain and that would be a terrible outcome. if keir starmer was to win _ terrible outcome. if keir starmer was to win the _ terrible outcome. if keir starmer was to win the election, - terrible outcome. if keir starmer was to win the election, what i terrible outcome. if keir starmer i was to win the election, what should he do with hs2?— was to win the election, what should he do with h52? i don't know whether he do with h52? i don't know whether he will have — he do with h52? i don't know whether he will have a — he do with h52? i don't know whether he will have a chance, _ he do with h52? i don't know whether he will have a chance, it _ he do with h52? i don't know whether he will have a chance, it may - he do with h52? i don't know whether he will have a chance, it may be i he will have a chance, it may be done _ he will have a chance, it may be done this— he will have a chance, it may be done this week but if he wins the election. — done this week but if he wins the election, the first thing i would do is to cancel— election, the first thing i would do is to cancel the section from old 0ak common to euston, which is valued _ 0ak common to euston, which is valued at — 0ak common to euston, which is valued at about 12 billion, and i would — valued at about 12 billion, and i would put — valued at about 12 billion, and i would put that money in the first bit of— would put that money in the first bit of linking manchester to leeds, probably— bit of linking manchester to leeds, probably through bradford, to give a real boost— probably through bradford, to give a real boost to the railways in the north— real boost to the railways in the north and — real boost to the railways in the north and they need the linkjust as much _ north and they need the linkjust as much as— north and they need the linkjust as much as anyone else but it has to be done _ much as anyone else but it has to be done much _ much as anyone else but it has to be done much more efficiently and cheaply— done much more efficiently and cheaply and i suggested smaller projects— cheaply and i suggested smaller projects are much more likely to achieve — projects are much more likely to achieve that.—

projects are much more likely to achieve that. i achieve that. what do you think? i a . ree with achieve that. what do you think? i agree with a _ achieve that. what do you think? i agree with a point _ achieve that. what do you think? i agree with a point about _ achieve that. what do you think? i l agree with a point about continuity, it's extremely ponton thing, continuity and stability. i agree with tony about the need to abandon going right into all city centres, it's crazy going to euston, particularly with 15 new platforms pulled white as the japanese high—speed train operate off five and we need 15? it's crazy. —— why does point to some of the design and thinking, why do we need to build stations that are architectural gems now? that can come later. we need efficiency and a proper design to move people and we don't need to go to the old city centres. just move people and we don't need to go to the old city centres.— to the old city centres. just before we finish, if we _ to the old city centres. just before we finish, if we delay, _ to the old city centres. just before we finish, if we delay, which is i we finish, if we delay, which is very possible, you have the japanese building maglev trains which a go at 350 kph but how much behind the technology will we be if we wait?

the japanese are having problems with the high—speed project, political... with the high-speed pro'ect, political. . .fi with the high-speed pro'ect, olitical... . ., _, , political... and other countries are, to political... and other countries are. to be _ political... and other countries are, to be fair. _ political... and other countries are, to be fair. they _ political... and other countries are, to be fair. they are, i political... and other countries are, to be fair. they are, but l political... and other countries i are, to be fair. they are, but this whole business _ are, to be fair. they are, but this whole business of _ are, to be fair. they are, but this whole business of driving - are, to be fair. they are, but this whole business of driving the i whole business of driving the economy through good transport links is extremely important but as i repeat, it is necessary but not in itself sufficient. it needs leadership and foresight and planning. leadership and foresight and ”lannin. . ~ leadership and foresight and ”lannin. ., ,, ., leadership and foresight and ”lannin _ ., ~' a, ., , leadership and foresight and ”lannin . ., ~' a, ., , . planning. rank you all very much indeed, planning. rank you all very much indeed. i'm _ planning. rank you all very much indeed, i'm afraid _ planning. rank you all very much indeed, i'm afraid we _ planning. rank you all very much indeed, i'm afraid we have i planning. rank you all very much indeed, i'm afraid we have run i planning. rank you all very much. indeed, i'm afraid we have run out of time. —— thank you. a fatal gun battle between kosovan police and 30 heavily armed serbs who barricaded themselves into an orthodox monastery in northern kosovo on sunday, in which at least four died, was one of the worst clashes since kosovo declared independence from serbia in 2008. kosovo, which has a majority ethnic albanian population, is an independent country but is not recognised as such by russia, which has close ties to serbia. but both kosovo and serbia want to join the eu, and the eu foreign policy chief,

josep borrell, has made it clear that, with the escalation of violence, rather that the normalisation required, neither kosovo nor serbia have an eu future. here's emir. a siege at the monastery. inside, 30 heavily armed men, barricaded, take on kosovo police in a lethal shoot—out. now, a police officer and three of the gunmen are dead. the latest in an interminable conflict where a peaceful resolution seems as distant as ever. today on tv, kosovo's government displayed the confiscated arsenal. among the gunmen's hardware, serbian flagged body armour. but was the hand of belgrade involved? translation:

0rganised crime, with political, financial and logistical support from belgrade, is attacking our state. in this battle, we defend the rule of law, protect and preserve all citizens and an independent kosovo. we have seen a build—up of military forces along serbia's border with kosovo. we have seen attacks even on nato troops by gangs that were clearly armed and prepared by the serbian security services. that's why i'm saying this is part of a pattern. it's an escalatory pattern to test the international community. two nationalist leaders with red lines. out of a population of 2 million, kosovo's ethnic serbs make up just 6% of its population. they are insistent to defend their rights, their claim to what they see as their historic homeland. and they are supported by serbia's government next door, whose president spoke in strident language after yesterday's shooting. translation: we will never recognise an independent kosovo. _ you can kill us all. you can do whatever you want. serbia will never recognise an independent kosovo.

the 1998 uprising by ethnic albanian rebels against the serbian government precipitated modern day kosovo, but the brutal response by belgrade prompted nato intervention. now, alongside ethnic serbs, because of the's 92% of ethnic albanians also share their land with nearly 5000 peacekeeping troops. earlier this ear, 5000 peacekeeping troops. earlier this year, kosovo _ 5000 peacekeeping troops. earlier this year, kosovo provoked - 5000 peacekeeping troops. earlierl this year, kosovo provoked violence and even the ire of western ally installing ethnic albanian mayors majority serb north. a serb boycott of the election that led to a turnout of just 3%. of the election that led to a turnout ofjust 3%.- of the election that led to a turnout ofjust 3%. of the election that led to a turnout of 'ust 3%. ., , ., ., , ., turnout of 'ust 3%. kosovo needs to hold a turnout ofjust 3%. kosovo needs to hold a new — turnout ofjust 3%. kosovo needs to hold a new round _ turnout ofjust 3%. kosovo needs to hold a new round of _ turnout ofjust 3%. kosovo needs to hold a new round of elections i turnout ofjust 3%. kosovo needs to hold a new round of elections in i turnout ofjust 3%. kosovo needs to hold a new round of elections in the north and that means that serbian political representatives must take part in these rounds of elections so the elected mayors ultimately can have legitimacy and these municipalities can operate in a normal way. municipalities can operate in a normal way-— municipalities can operate in a normal way. municipalities can operate in a normal wa . , . ., normal way. the independence of kosovo from _ normal way. the independence of kosovo from serbia _ normal way. the independence of kosovo from serbia is _ normal way. the independence of kosovo from serbia is recognised| normal way. the independence of i kosovo from serbia is recognised by around 100 countries including the us and most western countries put on

the serbian side are china and russia who some fear may see a benefit in a destabilised balkans. you have a situation where kosovo and serbia agree on something or verbally accept a deal, implement nothing in practice or do the exact opposite of what was agreed and nobody is sanctioned. there are no consequences for failing to do what they committed to doing and for as long as that is the case, i believe both sides will be pushing as far as can. fix. both sides will be pushing as far as can, �* , ., both sides will be pushing as far as can. . , ., .,. . can. a shoot-out in a church disturbs _ can. a shoot-out in a church disturbs memories - can. a shoot-out in a church disturbs memories of- can. a shoot-out in a church disturbs memories of past i can. a shoot-out in a church - disturbs memories of past violence. the fear now is that without a short response, it could foreshadow worse. we're now with xhelal svecla, the minister of internal affairs of kosovo. thank you forjoining us this evening. can we go back to one of the reasons for the mutual distrust just now, which was the installation

of kosovan albanian mayors in areas that were majority serb. was that now, as the west seems to think, as france, italy and germany, a mistake?— mistake? well, no, it's not a mistake- _ mistake? well, no, it's not a mistake. actually, _ mistake? well, no, it's not a mistake. actually, we - mistake. actually, we held elections, municipal elections, after the mayors resigned. and all these elections were monitored and declared legal and valid from international monitors. the issue is the small legitimacy, as you mentioned it, 3% of inhabitants of these municipalities participated in elections and this is due to attempt of serbia and instrument in these municipalities to condition the

central government agreeing something which is not in the interests of kosovo, and which is absolutely undemocratic and unjust. for the majority of people of kosovo. for the ma'ority of people of kosovo. �* .., , for the ma'ority of people of kosovo. �* , ., , kosovo. because of course the kosovan serbs _ kosovo. because of course the kosovan serbs stayed - kosovo. because of course the kosovan serbs stayed at i kosovo. because of course the | kosovan serbs stayed at home, kosovo. because of course the i kosovan serbs stayed at home, they did not take part in the election so therefore that was the reason for putting in the kosovan albanian mayors. putting in the kosovan albanian ma ors. , . , putting in the kosovan albanian ma ors. , ., , , ., mayors. yes, and we must understand that our citizens _ mayors. yes, and we must understand that our citizens in _ mayors. yes, and we must understand that our citizens in these _ mayors. yes, and we must understand that our citizens in these four- that our citizens in these four municipalities are under tremendous pressure from these gangs that you mentioned earlier and directly from the government of serbia.- mentioned earlier and directly from the government of serbia. there is a deteriorating — the government of serbia. there is a deteriorating situation _ the government of serbia. there is a deteriorating situation at _ the government of serbia. there is a deteriorating situation at the - deteriorating situation at the weekend, in a way that culminated in the attack in the monastery and there are differing accounts of what happened but what is your version?

yesterday early morning, the police patrol in normal duty, was attacked, it was police officers from public order unit with soft course, doing random patrolling, was attacked. and in this attack, one of the police officers unfortunately died, another was wounded. after that, we have sent other units to extract the wounded police officers. at the time, we did not know that we already had one casualty. we have seen two trucks that blocked the road and then attacks on other police units continued. and it lasted for almost a day. do you fear

a return to — lasted for almost a day. do you fear a return to the _ lasted for almost a day. do you fear a return to the horrific— lasted for almost a day. do you fear a return to the horrific violence i lasted for almost a day. do you fear a return to the horrific violence of. a return to the horrific violence of the late 90s, or is there a way back to the negotiating table?— to the negotiating table? there is a wa back to the negotiating table? there is a way back to — to the negotiating table? there is a way back to negotiations. _ way back to negotiations. 0bviously what we want to do is make sure that everyone feels safe, that we provide rule of law and security for every citizen, regardless of ethnicity or any other diversity. unfortunately, serbia thinks that by asserting violent, terrorist acts, they can change the situation on the ground, which means they can put that on the table of negotiations. we should not forget that we had agreement in

brussels and also an actual agreement of implementation in north macedonia in which we agreed on these terms of agreement. i'm so sor , these terms of agreement. i'm so sorry. but — these terms of agreement. i'm so sorry. but we _ these terms of agreement. i'm so sorry, but we have _ these terms of agreement. i'm so sorry, but we have run _ these terms of agreement. i'm so sorry, but we have run out - these terms of agreement. i'm so sorry, but we have run out of i these terms of agreement. i'm so l sorry, but we have run out of time, i will have to stop you there. thank you very much indeed. just a word about tomorrow night's newsnight, when we will have the first of three films made by mark urban and his producer, louis harris—white, from the front line in ukraine. they spend two weeks with the regular soldiers of the 24th mechanised brigade to find some extraordinary stories of life and death. explosion. where was the incoming? there. oh, yeah. the raw emotion of this war and its consequences could not be more stark.

choral singing. that is tomorrow night. for years, we've been compelled by the idea of time travel — the chance to visit the past, pop into the future and even slip sideways into parallel universes where every decision ever made is played out. people have boggled over the potential consequences of altering history and the moral dilemmas involved, giving far too much thought to killing grandfathers. in a moment, i'll be talking to the lord of the time tale, steven moffat. but first, the bfi begins a time travel season next month and actor he's co—written a book about the many tropes and challenges involved in time travel storytelling. with flashing images, here he is in appointment with dick.

what's that doing there? i didn't write that, but it's my writing. 10:04!? great scot, that toaster�*s sent me an hour into the future! now i'm going to be late! homer simpson. he used a toaster too. but toasters and police boxes aside, surely the most exciting way to time travel, apart from arriving

in the buff... ..is in a delorean. if your explanation for how you time travel is scientific, then you're probably going to use a machine or you're going to use some sort of recognisable technology, something that roots it in a reality we understand. the time machine in george pal�*s the time machine is a beautiful bit of design, but if you haven't got that budget, then you can go for something much more mundane. just walking down an alleyway, you know, like in goodnight sweetheart. the writers of back to the future originally wanted it to be a fridge and then they realised the fridge had to move. i can think that the fridge conversation didn't last that long! the whole thing about time travel is, what will people believe? time travel has slipped the bonds ofjust being a part of sci—fi. i had an accident and i woke up in 1973.

life on mars, which is not ostensibly a comedy, has a lot of comedy in it because of the clash of the two worlds. who the hell are you? gene hunt, your dci, _ and it's1973, almost dinnertime. i'm having 'oops. time wasters, which is about a black jazz band who accidentally find themselves back in the 19205, uses time travel to make a little social commentary about the changing times, about racism, of course. alright? there's a lovely line in it when one of the guys, incredulous that they've time travelled, says... people like us never get to time travel. it's what white people do, like skiing, or brunch. but proper outright farce is actually quite rare. but there is a great one from czechoslovakia. yeah, tomorrow i shall wake up and scald myself with tea. i love that title. yeah, which is fantastic, and a fantastic plot. it's the sort of film that has cult written all over it, you know. it's got twins and then the sort of two sets of them because there's mix up with times and you've got

this problem of dual existence. and you've got nazis. heil hitler! because you can't have two of them in the same place, you then have to kill off, you know, the other person, as it were, your other self. ah, dick, i'm sorry i'm late. what? you made it. this won't do. no, you can't have two of us running about. he's right, you know. come back! making time travel make sense can certainly be a bit of a challenge. the grandfather paradox. what would happen if you went back in time and killed your granddad? would you therefore cease to exist? but if so, surely then your granddad would survive and you'd be back where you started. # you'd better believe it, babe...

there's a self procreation version of this, too, as dominic hyde in this 1980 play for today found out, when he went back in time and became his own great, great grandfather. the truth is, i'm pregnant. how does that affect the future, gilby? at one time, that sort of paradox was at the kernel of most sci—fi stories. it's like, in many time travel stories, there's a warning about not meeting yourself, as if somehow that disrupts the fabric of time. marty, doc, you've got to help us. my toaster sent me into the future, and now there's two of us. great scot! was your toaster somehow travelling at 88 miles per hour? no, it was in my kitchen, making toast. this is heavy. quick, into the delorean.

we're sending you back to your kitchen! ok. make sure you're speeding at 88 miles per hour. are you ready? yes. ok, you should arrive a few moments just before you left. 0h, thanks, doc. hey, don't forget to remind yourself to meet dick at the bfi. ha! he did it! whatever story tropes you decide upon, your twisty, timey—wimey tale has to make sense, because if there is a plot hole, someone is going to find it.

hi, dick? yeah, i want to meet later on about 12:00 at the bfi. what's that doing there? i'm joined now by writer and former doctor who showrunner steven moffat. good evening. writers, even before the christmas carol, talk to a time travel but it was such a leap of imagination originally. somehow we emotionally accept _ imagination originally. somehow we emotionally accept the _ imagination originally. somehow we emotionally accept the idea - imagination originally. somehow we emotionally accept the idea it's i emotionally accept the idea it's possible. we know it isn't because scientists crossly tell us it isn't, and we should follow the scientists because that always works out, but emotionally it feels right. i always feel as though the past are still going on and, if i turn right corner and step through the red door, i can

arrive back. and step through the red door, i can arrive back-— arrive back. does it take a good time travel _ arrive back. does it take a good time travel device _ arrive back. does it take a good time travel device like - arrive back. does it take a good time travel device like a - arrive back. does it take a good i time travel device like a delorean or a tardis? time travel device like a delorean ora tardis? in time travel device like a delorean or a tardis?_ time travel device like a delorean or a tardis? in the time traveller's wife, he or a tardis? in the time traveller's wife. he just _ or a tardis? in the time traveller's wife, he just disappears _ or a tardis? in the time traveller's wife, he just disappears and i or a tardis? in the time traveller'sj wife, he just disappears and sends up wife, he just disappears and sends up naked. there are different ways of doing it. i think the more entertaining once had a ridiculous thing, like a car. plan, given that scientists say it can't happen sorry, folks. why is it such an enduring narrative idea? because we sort of believe _ enduring narrative idea? because we sort of believe it _ enduring narrative idea? because we sort of believe it can. _ enduring narrative idea? because we sort of believe it can. our— enduring narrative idea? because we sort of believe it can. our memories| sort of believe it can. 0ur memories sort of believe it can. 0ur memories sort of believe it can. 0ur memories sort of work that way. we spent a lot of time thinking about the past and the way our memories are stored, the story of our life isn't even in chronological order, it'sjust the story of our life isn't even in chronological order, it's just a mess. thank you are saying we live a lot of time in our memories and therefore what we are trying to

recreate things or therefore what we are trying to recreate thing- therefore what we are trying to recreate thin ., , , ,., . ,, recreate things or bring things back from the distant _ recreate things or bring things back from the distant past? _ recreate things or bring things back from the distant past? whenever. recreate things or bring things back. from the distant past? whenever you talk to somebody, _ from the distant past? whenever you talk to somebody, that _ from the distant past? whenever you talk to somebody, that conversation l talk to somebody, that conversation is overlaid with all the previous time you have spoken to them for the if you go back to a place, you feel haunted by the previous times you were there. i think that's just a function of memory to feels like you could go back. function of memory to feels like you could go back-— could go back. steve nallon was sa in: could go back. steve nallon was saying there _ could go back. steve nallon was saying there is _ could go back. steve nallon was saying there is a _ could go back. steve nallon was saying there is a terrible - could go back. steve nallon was saying there is a terrible danger| saying there is a terrible danger that there are terrible potholes, and when you've been mapping things out in your head, you come up against this idea, if i do that, this is never going to work. if you are doinu this is never going to work. if you are doing a _ this is never going to work. if you are doing a time _ this is never going to work. if you are doing a time travel _ this is never going to work. if you are doing a time travel story, i this is never going to work. if you are doing a time travel story, it's| are doing a time travel story, it's made of potholes. how often does the doctor say, we are too late, you've got a time machine! it's always good to be a problem. time travel is a huge impossibility.— to be a problem. time travel is a huge impossibility. what time travel doesnt huge impossibility. what time travel doesn't exist — huge impossibility. what time travel doesn't exist in _ huge impossibility. what time travel doesn't exist in science _ huge impossibility. what time travel doesn't exist in science fiction. i

doesn't exist in science fiction. look at outlander, for example. fir a look at outlander, for example. or a christmas carol, _ look at outlander, for example. or a christmas carol, or _ look at outlander, for example. (1) — christmas carol, or good night sweetheart, or back to the future of the tip toms midnight garden. we have already accepted time travellers possible. plaque is that because we believe we might be able to go back and meet somebody from our past? fir to go back and meet somebody from our ast? , , ., ., our past? or is this idea that there is something _ our past? or is this idea that there is something magical? _ our past? or is this idea that there is something magical? it _ our past? or is this idea that there is something magical? it appeals l our past? or is this idea that there l is something magical? it appeals to us, i is something magical? it appeals to us. i couldn't— is something magical? it appeals to us, i couldn't say _ is something magical? it appeals to us, i couldn't say why, _ is something magical? it appeals to us, i couldn't say why, but - is something magical? it appeals to us, i couldn't say why, but it - us, i couldn't say why, but it appeals as an idea in the way that being superman, that's strictly for science fiction. i love it dearly, but we don't really think we are going to be able to fly and have x—ray vision. that's strictly comic book. x-ray vision. that's strictly comic book. �* ~ , x-ray vision. that's strictly comic book. �* ~' , ., x-ray vision. that's strictly comic book. �* ~ , ., ., ~ book. i'm thinking in terms of folk tales, particularly _ book. i'm thinking in terms of folk tales, particularly celtic _ book. i'm thinking in terms of folk tales, particularly celtic culture, l tales, particularly celtic culture, the idea of second sight. that is time travel there since. now we come

to steven moffat time travel for the this desire to go back, do you think you will go back in some shape or form two doctor who?— you will go back in some shape or form two doctor who? what, i'll wake u . form two doctor who? what, i'll wake uo tomorrow — form two doctor who? what, i'll wake up tomorrow in cardiff _ form two doctor who? what, i'll wake up tomorrow in cardiff and have - up tomorrow in cardiff and have a production meeting? it's really very recent that i quit doctor who step for me, it feels like... but recent that i quit doctor who step for me, it feels like. . .— recent that i quit doctor who step for me, it feels like... but it must feel like a — for me, it feels like... but it must feel like a long _ for me, it feels like... but it must feel like a long time _ for me, it feels like... but it must feel like a long time in _ for me, it feels like... but it must feel like a long time in time - feel like a long time in time travel years. feel like a long time in time travel ears. , , , ., ._ years. guess, in that way the i adore doctor _ years. guess, in that way the i adore doctor who. _ years. guess, in that way the i adore doctor who. it's - years. guess, in that way the i adore doctor who. it's a - years. guess, in that way the i - adore doctor who. it's a wonderful show but it's in very safe hands. you're not answering my question. politicians don't have to answer your questions! [30 politicians don't have to answer your questions!— politicians don't have to answer your questions! do you still feel the ull your questions! do you still feel the pull of _ your questions! do you still feel the pull of doctor _ your questions! do you still feel the pull of doctor who? - your questions! do you still feel the pull of doctor who? will - your questions! do you still feel| the pull of doctor who? will stay your questions! do you still feel i the pull of doctor who? will stay in touch with russell. _ the pull of doctor who? will stay in touch with russell. of _ the pull of doctor who? will stay in touch with russell. of course - the pull of doctor who? will stay in touch with russell. of course i - the pull of doctor who? will stay in touch with russell. of course i did | touch with russell. of course i did step but that doesn't mean i'm dashing to cardiff on the train tomorrow. is dashing to cardiff on the train tomorrow— dashing to cardiff on the train tomorrow. , . , u, , tomorrow. is a writer, because there

has been news _ tomorrow. is a writer, because there has been news of — tomorrow. is a writer, because there has been news of the _ tomorrow. is a writer, because there has been news of the right _ tomorrow. is a writer, because there has been news of the right to - tomorrow. is a writer, because there has been news of the right to strike. has been news of the right to strike perhaps being