a very good morning, welcome to the nation's phone in. a good one this morning, a slice of contemporary life. we need to hearfrom morning, a slice of contemporary life. we need to hear from you, morning, a slice of contemporary life. we need to hearfrom you, i'll be too quick to go on the second? uk workers are taking more sick days than at any other point in the last decade. what is going on? is that you? what is your diagnosis of this? why is this happening in a country not great for our notoriously low productivity, and not great for you. public sector absence is significantly higher. what does that tell us? inevitably, what about the

self—employed? somebody told me this morning who is self—employed but self—employed never go off sick, they can't afford it. is that you or a myth? looking at the texts, some are saying it is freeloading, it is chancing your arm. there are multiple reasons, mental health, stress, cost of living crisis, covid, long covid, which can be devastating. i'll be too quick to go on the say? get in touch. —— are we too sick? nick hatfield has the news. workers

in the uk are estimated to be taking more sick days than at any point in the last decade. the chartered institute of personnel and development stress, cost of living pressures on my a hospital trust failed to centre 2a,000 letters from senior doctors to patients and gps, blaming a computer error. newcastle hospital says the problem goes back to 2018. the nhs wants regulation patient safety. home secretary suella braverman is expected to say the 1958 un refugee convention might not be fit for the modern age. in a speech in washington she will argue it was an incredible achievement that shifts in the interpretation has led to increased numbers being defined as refugees. hundreds of schools in scotland have closed due to a strike by support staff. the walk—out by unison members affects 24

walk—out by unison members affects 2a council areas. good morning, more of us are on the sick than at any time since 2010. what was it about 2010? lots of factors. stress, mental health, covid, long covid, the cost of living crisis and all of that, for want of a better word, stuff going on in the world. this is according to new research by the chartered institute for personnel and development, to whom we will speak in a moment. covid, one of the organisations responding to the research said 50% of employees have had covid over the last 12 months, covid or long covid. long covid symptoms last 12 weeks or more and

if you have that right now and you are listening or watching, my sympathies, i know people going through that. the main cause of long—term absence is mental ill health, that is a big, big issue. let's talk to rachel, a senior well being advisor for the aforementioned capd. good morning. tell us more about this. i guess the question is, why now? about this. i guess the question is, wh now? . , ~ , , ., about this. i guess the question is, wh now? . , , ., ~ why now? that is the key question. a bi “um in why now? that is the key question. a big jump in sickness _ why now? that is the key question. a big jump in sickness absence - why now? that is the key question. a big jump in sickness absence levels i big jump in sickness absence levels and when i looked back even further it is 15 years since we have seen absence levels this high. 0n it is 15 years since we have seen absence levels this high. on average now 7.8 days per employee per year, before the pandemic we reported 5.8 days, that is two whole days more per employee, so a really big jump.

when we look at the causes, according to research findings, you've already mentioned mental ill—health, that is by far the main cause of long—term absence, four weeks or more. it is also a cause of short—term absence. also stress, that was seen as a really major factor. you also mention to other issues and i think we need to look at the broader context too it is a complex picture, lots of people and organisations have had a very challenging time over the last three years. 0bviously challenging time over the last three years. obviously the pandemic, covid is still very pleasant —— very present, but also there is a cost of living crisis, lots of economic turbulence, we have had war, there is a lot going on in the outside world affecting people.- is a lot going on in the outside world affecting people. there is some awful _ world affecting people. there is some awful stuff. _ world affecting people. there is some awful stuff. turn - world affecting people. there is some awful stuff. turn on - world affecting people. there is some awful stuff. turn on the i world affecting people. there is| some awful stuff. turn on the tv world affecting people. there is - some awful stuff. turn on the tv or radio and it feels a bit all

enveloping, so there was that, and there are more personal issues. what is stress? it there are more personal issues. what is stress? , ~ ., ., is stress? it is linked to mental ill health and _ is stress? it is linked to mental ill health and mental _ is stress? it is linked to mental| ill health and mental well-being is stress? it is linked to mental- ill health and mentalwell-being but ill health and mental well—being but it is different. the health and safety executive, the regulator for stress, they have all the great tools to help organisations manage workplace stress, they define it as excess pressure. we all have pressure in our lives, but it is normal, if it is at a controllable level we react and control and perform under pressure but if it goes on for prolonged amounts of time you get turnout, we have seen quite a bit of research around burnout for some people in the nhs, front line roles. you can also then have mental health issues too like anxiety and depression. lots of physical symptoms from stress too.

you feel it in the stomach when it is really bad. any figures for the self—employed? i think there is a little bit of kickback from the freelancers on this.— little bit of kickback from the freelancers on this. there are a few million peeple _ freelancers on this. there are a few million people who _ freelancers on this. there are a few million people who are _ million people who are self—employed. million people who are self-employed.- million people who are self-employed. if million people who are self-emlo ed. , ., , m self-employed. tiny money. if they are off sick — self-employed. tiny money. if they are off sick they _ self-employed. tiny money. if they are off sick they don't _ self-employed. tiny money. if they are off sick they don't really - self-employed. tiny money. if they are off sick they don't really get - are off sick they don't really get anything, they are not entitled to statutory sick pay like all workers are in the uk. our survey findings do not cover the self—employed because they are looking at organisations that you have highlighted a really important gap in terms of what we provide in this country for people who are self—employed. we need longer term reform to make sure they can access support and financial support when

they are not well and cannot work. it is not good for anybody to work when they are unwell. i it is not good for anybody to work when they are unwell.— when they are unwell. i suppose another yardstick, _ when they are unwell. i suppose another yardstick, cynics - when they are unwell. i suppose another yardstick, cynics mightl when they are unwell. i suppose i another yardstick, cynics might say if the self—employed can push on through, why can't other people? and just picking up on what people are saying, why is it particularly bad in the public sector? cynics via say that more time off is allowed. we alwa s that more time off is allowed. - always get that type of commentary around the difference in public and private sector absence. i will around the difference in public and private sector absence.— private sector absence. i will show ou m private sector absence. i will show you my text _ private sector absence. i will show you my text console _ private sector absence. i will show you my text console some - private sector absence. i will show you my text console some time, l private sector absence. i will show you my text console some time, i | you my text console some time, i will take a screen grab. all sorts of opinions coming in and that is a significant part. it is of opinions coming in and that is a significant part-— significant part. it is good to have oinions significant part. it is good to have opinions coming _ significant part. it is good to have opinions coming in _ significant part. it is good to have opinions coming in and _ significant part. it is good to have opinions coming in and to - significant part. it is good to have opinions coming in and to really l opinions coming in and to really discuss the issue. public sector sickness absence has always been higher and this time it is almost

double, actually, that of the private sector, around 10.5 days on average per employee. to put that in context, firstly absence is normally higher in larger organisations, that those who private sector too, and there are lots of organisations in there are lots of organisations in the public sector. also there is an awful lot of front line roles. if you think how front line workers have really stepped up during the pandemic and experienced quite a lot of pressure and stress in their jobs. we have workforce shortages in areas of the public sector like the nhs, that can lead to increased stress. and so on, at work. i can't imaaine stress. and so on, at work. i can't imagine the _ stress. and so on, at work. i can't imagine the stress _ stress. and so on, at work. i can't imagine the stress working - stress. and so on, at work. i can't imagine the stress working in - stress. and so on, at work. i can't imagine the stress working in the | imagine the stress working in the overpriced nhs too. there was covid and now there are all the pressure is bearing down on the national health service —— i cannot imagine

working in the states nhs. we will soon bejoined by a psychologist and author. is there enough concentration on well—being in the workplace for the workers? contact us using the details on screen, let's see what is happening in your environment. richard from newport, how are you doing? all newport, how are you doing? fill right, how are you? newport, how are you doing? all right, how are you? i'm - newport, how are you doing? all right, how are you? i'm fine. - newport, how are you doing? all i right, how are you? i'm fine. what do ou right, how are you? i'm fine. what do you think _ right, how are you? i'm fine. what do you think of _ right, how are you? i'm fine. what do you think of this? _ right, how are you? i'm fine. what do you think of this? i _ right, how are you? i'm fine. what do you think of this? i have - right, how are you? i'm fine. what| do you think of this? i have worked full time but _ do you think of this? i have worked full time but a _ do you think of this? i have worked full time but a zero-hours - do you think of this? i have worked full time but a zero-hours contract| full time but a zero—hours contract and last year i was diagnosed with cancer, part of the treatment with radiotherapy every day, which could have been accommodated for the first thing in the morning because i needed to continue to work, but for whatever reason it was getting later and later in the morning that i had to go to the hospital, so being

zero—hours with no sick pay i decided to go to work rather than take up the treatment, i couldn't afford not to. take up the treatment, i couldn't afford not to-_ take up the treatment, i couldn't| afford not to._ the afford not to. that is terrible. the other thing _ afford not to. that is terrible. the other thing that _ afford not to. that is terrible. the other thing that really _ afford not to. that is terrible. the other thing that really annoys - afford not to. that is terrible. the | other thing that really annoys me, in effect i am self employed even though i have been there for two years full—time. if i was living in rented accommodation i would have had help with the rent. i own my property, my mortgage has increased from 352/1200 pounds a month. i simply have to work. —— has increased from £350 to £1200 a month. ~ ., , increased from £350 to £1200 a month. ~ . , i. increased from £350 to £1200 a month. . . , y., ., increased from £350 to £1200 a month. . . , ., . month. what is your work? a girl i drive for a — month. what is your work? a girl i drive for a living. _ month. what is your work? a girl i drive for a living. i _ month. what is your work? a girl i drive for a living. i am _ month. what is your work? a girl i drive for a living. i am on - month. what is your work? a girl i drive for a living. i am on my -- i l drive for a living. i am on my -- i t for drive for a living. i am on my -- i try for a — drive for a living. i am on my -- i try for a living. — drive for a living. i am on my -- i try for a living. i— drive for a living. i am on my -- i try for a living, i am _ drive for a living. i am on my -- i try for a living, i am on _ drive for a living. i am on my -- i try for a living, i am on my - drive for a living. i am on my -- i try for a living, i am on my way i drive for a living. i am on my —— i try for a living, i am on my way to scotland — try for a living, i am on my way to scotland as— try for a living, i am on my way to scotland as we speak, but i had stooped — scotland as we speak, but i had stopped for now.— scotland as we speak, but i had stopped for now. how are you at the moment? as —

stopped for now. how are you at the moment? as far _ stopped for now. how are you at the moment? as far as _ stopped for now. how are you at the moment? as far as i _ stopped for now. how are you at the moment? as far as i know, - stopped for now. how are you at the moment? as far as i know, i'm - stopped for now. how are you at the moment? as far as i know, i'm fine, i have moment? as far as i know, i'm fine, i have three — moment? as far as i know, i'm fine, i have three monthly _ moment? as far as i know, i'm fine, i have three monthly reviews - moment? as far as i know, i'm fine, i have three monthly reviews over. i have three monthly reviews over the telephone, but who knows without proper diagnosis? i suppose i have buried my head in the sand and as far as i know i am fine at the moment, that is the best i can say. but you have had to work in the situation that you have the terrible nagging worry about things and you probably have not been feeling terribly well?— probably have not been feeling terribl well? . , ., terribly well? that is true, i have had to- -- — terribly well? that is true, i have had to- -- i _ terribly well? that is true, i have had to... i would _ terribly well? that is true, i have had to... i would not _ terribly well? that is true, i have had to... i would not say - terribly well? that is true, i have had to... i would not say force i had to... i would not say force myself, i'm fortunate i really love myself, i'm fortunate i really love myjob, but i really don't have a choice so i have to accept things the way they are and just get on with it. if i was to get help with my mortgage and sick pay then i would probably be one of those figures, one of those people pushing the figures up. that's because i have no choice, i had to accept the situation as it is.—

situation as it is. julie is with us, situation as it is. julie is with us. what _ situation as it is. julie is with us. what an _ situation as it is. julie is with us, what an important i situation as it is. julie is with us, what an important call. | situation as it is. julie is with i us, what an important call. hi, julie. and richard, health—wise, i hope your recovery continues and you get everything worked out and the timing is work out for you and i hope the journey to scotland is good. richard it newport. julie, where are you?— good. richard it newport. julie, | where are you?_ i good. richard it newport. julie, i where are you?_ i am where are you? herefordshire. i am not sure if— where are you? herefordshire. i am not sure if it — where are you? herefordshire. i am not sure if it is _ where are you? herefordshire. i am not sure if it is a _ where are you? herefordshire. i am not sure if it is a brilliant _ where are you? herefordshire. i am not sure if it is a brilliant line, i not sure if it is a brilliant line, carry on and i will try to get you. it never is. carry on and i will try to get you. it never is— it never is. we will endeavour to net a it never is. we will endeavour to get a better _ it never is. we will endeavour to get a better line. _ it never is. we will endeavour to get a better line. matt _ it never is. we will endeavour to get a better line. matt in - it never is. we will endeavour to | get a better line. matt in norfolk. i am a lazy person, i will happily admit, but i find sometimes, particularly at work, if there is something i'm not looking forward

to... i had twojobs at my first part—timejob is at to... i had twojobs at my first part—time job is at times quite stressful, and if there was something i am not looking forward to in the week then i find it quite easy to say, actually, my mental health isn't very good today, do you mind if i don't come in and do that thing? i don't know, listening to your previous caller who had to go into work, i sometimes feel quite guilty about that but, yeah, it can be an easy excuse. there are times when i guess, yeah, my mental health isn't great and i have to be aware of that, but it is a bit of an easy excuse for me, i think. we don't hear from _ excuse for me, i think. we don't hear from nearly _ excuse for me, i think. we don't hear from nearly enough - excuse for me, i think. we don't hear from nearly enough lazy i excuse for me, i think. we don't i hear from nearly enough lazy people on the phone, self confessed, that it's quite something to say.- it's quite something to say. yeah. yeah. i it's quite something to say. yeah. yeah- idon't_ it's quite something to say. yeah. yeah. i don't say _ it's quite something to say. yeah. yeah. i don't say a _ it's quite something to say. yeah.

yeah. i don't say a patch - it's quite something to say. yeah. yeah. i don't say a patch often, i yeah. i don't say a patch often, because i guess i am not overly proud of it. sometimes i do sometimes i claim it as a label, if you want something done quickly, get a lazy person to do it —— i don't say it that often. but sometimes it is something that i have had throughout my whole life, my school and work life. but throughout my whole life, my school and work life-— and work life. but there is a substantive _ and work life. but there is a substantive point _ and work life. but there is a substantive point here i and work life. but there is a | substantive point here which and work life. but there is a i substantive point here which is and work life. but there is a - substantive point here which is you think it is too easy and people will too readily believe you when you provide an excuse?— too readily believe you when you provide an excuse? sometimes, yes. particularly when _ provide an excuse? sometimes, yes. particularly when you _ provide an excuse? sometimes, yes. particularly when you say _ provide an excuse? sometimes, yes. particularly when you say mental i particularly when you say mental health. because there has been so much stigma that we are rightly removing, i think some people are too easy to not question it, because you don't necessarily had to prove it in the same way as sickness and diarrhoea or whatever.— diarrhoea or whatever. thanks for that. diarrhoea or whatever. thanks for that- doctor _ diarrhoea or whatever. thanks for that. doctor audrey _

diarrhoea or whatever. thanks for that. doctor audrey tan, - diarrhoea or whatever. thanks for that. doctor audrey tan, good i that. doctoraudrey tan, good morning. that. doctor audrey tan, good morninu. ., that. doctor audrey tan, good morninu. . ., . i] morning. thanks for having me. i will thank you _ morning. thanks for having me. i will thank you to _ morning. thanks for having me. i will thank you to react _ morning. thanks for having me. i will thank you to react to - morning. thanks for having me. i will thank you to react to what i morning. thanks for having me. i | will thank you to react to what we just heard. will thank you to react to what we 'ust heard. ., will thank you to react to what we just heard-— will thank you to react to what we 'ust heard. ., ., , ., ,, , ., just heard. your last caller makes a ve aood just heard. your last caller makes a very good point _ just heard. your last caller makes a very good point in _ just heard. your last caller makes a very good point in there _ just heard. your last caller makes a very good point in there can - just heard. your last caller makes a very good point in there can be i very good point in there can be many secondary— very good point in there can be many secondary gains of being able to claim _ secondary gains of being able to claim mental ill—health and have an excuse _ claim mental ill—health and have an excuse or— claim mental ill—health and have an excuse or a — claim mental ill—health and have an excuse or a reason that other people don't _ excuse or a reason that other people don't question because we are not really— don't question because we are not really sure — don't question because we are not really sure whether we can or what we need _ really sure whether we can or what we need to— really sure whether we can or what we need to be able to say. that is why organisations are looking into doing _ why organisations are looking into doing things like a well be able to say. doing things like a well be able to say that — doing things like a well be able to say. that is why organisations are looking _ say. that is why organisations are looking into doing things like a well—being appraisal whereby people well— being appraisal whereby people are rust, _ well—being appraisal whereby people are rust, how do you manage your mental— are rust, how do you manage your mental health —— whereby people are asked. _ mental health —— whereby people are asked. how— mental health —— whereby people are asked, how do you manage your mental health. _ asked, how do you manage your mental health. you _ asked, how do you manage your mental health, you are almost asked to talk about— health, you are almost asked to talk about how— health, you are almost asked to talk about how you manage things that you put those _ about how you manage things that you put those into process. your other caller— put those into process. your other caller richard spoke about being ill and missing appointments, this is a

bil and missing appointments, this is a big issue _ and missing appointments, this is a big issue known as financial toxicity _ big issue known as financial toxici . ., , ., big issue known as financial toxici . ., ., ~ ., , toxicity. he has to work otherwise the rate no _ toxicity. he has to work otherwise the rate no money _ toxicity. he has to work otherwise the rate no money coming - toxicity. he has to work otherwise the rate no money coming in i toxicity. he has to work otherwise the rate no money coming in and| toxicity. he has to work otherwise i the rate no money coming in and his rent has soared, it is heartbreaking. —— otherwise there is no money coming in. it heartbreaking. -- otherwise there is no money coming in.— no money coming in. it has been looked at cancer _ no money coming in. it has been looked at cancer patients - no money coming in. it has beenl looked at cancer patients because no money coming in. it has been i looked at cancer patients because of the cost _ looked at cancer patients because of the cost of _ looked at cancer patients because of the cost of cancer treatment in the usa, _ the cost of cancer treatment in the usa, people are missing appointments because _ usa, people are missing appointments because they cannot get somebody to cover all— because they cannot get somebody to cover all they had caregiving responsibilities, orthey are cover all they had caregiving responsibilities, or they are taking less medicine or the treatment plan is too _ less medicine or the treatment plan is too expensive so they are forgoing _ is too expensive so they are forgoing it, it is making people sicker~ — forgoing it, it is making people sicker. hospitals and doctors are being _ sicker. hospitals and doctors are being told — sicker. hospitals and doctors are being told to focus on prevention, when _ being told to focus on prevention, when a _ being told to focus on prevention, when a service is so overstrained as it is and _ when a service is so overstrained as it is and appointments are being cancelled — it is and appointments are being cancelled and people are going on strike, _ cancelled and people are going on strike, how do we focus on prevention? | strike, how do we focus on prevention?— strike, how do we focus on revention? . ., ., ., , prevention? i will come to the last thin on a prevention? i will come to the last thing on a second _ prevention? i will come to the last thing on a second but _ prevention? i will come to the last thing on a second but you - prevention? i will come to the last thing on a second but you are i prevention? i will come to the last| thing on a second but you are right to identify the multiplicity of issues. the reason i am coming in is

we have a caller who does not have so long, i want to go to him now, rather in plymouth. you had suffered real burnout? —— rob in plymouth. twice in the last 12 years. i am not at the same pace any more, if anyone is listening i don't want them to think is the same place. i worked at a place over the last 12 years and twice my workload with such i ended up twice my workload with such i ended up breaking down in tears in the building and having to go off sick for a lengthy period with stress. were you being unreasonably pushed to go above and beyond what you should have had to do? it to go above and beyond what you should have had to do?— should have had to do? it was a department _ should have had to do? it was a department which _ should have had to do? it was a department which a _ should have had to do? it was a department which a chat - should have had to do? it was a department which a chat about| should have had to do? it was a i department which a chat about 300 students, i'm a teacher, i was a manager in a teaching establishment, the department had about 300

students and i was managing about 50 staff and i got to the stage where i had about a thousand students and i was managing 43 staff, no extra support and nothing else. it is partly how the public sector is funded, it is so minimalist, and partly managersjust funded, it is so minimalist, and partly managers just trying to squeeze as much as possible out of view all of the time.— view all of the time. when we discuss schools, _ view all of the time. when we discuss schools, education, i discuss schools, education, teaching, i am so in awe of teachers given the workload they have, they had to go beyond the call of duty and i can't imagine how stressful that can and must be. and and i can't imagine how stressful that can and must be.— that can and must be. and as a manauer that can and must be. and as a manager you — that can and must be. and as a manager you see _ that can and must be. and as a manager you see the _ that can and must be. and as a manager you see the stress i that can and must be. and as a manager you see the stress on| that can and must be. and as a i manager you see the stress on your staff and you try to do something about it and there is nothing you can do most of the time other than doing more work yourself. that is

the pressure you are being put under. i don't know whether it is due to budget, due to bad management, but it is very difficult to work in education without ending up to work in education without ending up feeling like you have to just break down and stop half of the time. . ~' ,, break down and stop half of the time. . ,, i. .,, break down and stop half of the time._ audrey? time. thank you, rob. audrey? absolutely- _ time. thank you, rob. audrey? absolutely. my _ time. thank you, rob. audrey? absolutely. my phd _ time. thank you, rob. audrey? absolutely. my phd in - time. thank you, rob. audrey? absolutely. my phd in 2012 - time. thank you, rob. audrey? absolutely. my phd in 2012 was time. thank you, rob. audrey? i absolutely. my phd in 2012 was on front line _ absolutely. my phd in 2012 was on front line workers including teachers, i was a teacher myself, and one _ teachers, i was a teacher myself, and one of— teachers, i was a teacher myself, and one of the factors of burnout is the expectations placed on teachers to be inspiring and motivational when _ to be inspiring and motivational when they have had the most awful day and _ when they have had the most awful day and one of the key findings i saw was — day and one of the key findings i saw was many people went into teaching — saw was many people went into teaching as a calling, they wanted to help _ teaching as a calling, they wanted to help and inspire, but the extra pressures— to help and inspire, but the extra pressures they were being put under were taken— pressures they were being put under were taken away from all of those positive _ were taken away from all of those positive elements. unfortunately there _ positive elements. unfortunately there was a mismatch of understanding from people at the top. understanding from people at the too on— understanding from people at the top. 0n the one hand it would be

things— top. 0n the one hand it would be things like — top. 0n the one hand it would be things like it is ok, we will do lunchtime _ things like it is ok, we will do lunchtime yoga or get an ice cream van: _ lunchtime yoga or get an ice cream van. these — lunchtime yoga or get an ice cream van, these are short—term fixes that were _ van, these are short—term fixes that were not— van, these are short—term fixes that were not what people needed. they needed _ were not what people needed. they needed a _ were not what people needed. they needed a place to vent, there were some _ needed a place to vent, there were some staff— needed a place to vent, there were some staff rooms where children could _ some staff rooms where children could just — some staff rooms where children could just pass through without any form of— could just pass through without any form of privacy. the could just pass through without any form of privacy-— could just pass through without any form of privacy. the amount of work that teachers. _ form of privacy. the amount of work that teachers, for _ form of privacy. the amount of work that teachers, for example, - form of privacy. the amount of work that teachers, for example, if i form of privacy. the amount of work that teachers, for example, if we i that teachers, for example, if we are talking about the public sector, and of course this applies to so many self—employed people who have constant anxiety, but the amount of work teachers had to take home with them, for example, the pressure on people in that sector in the public sector, but goodness only knows what people working in the nhs, given the current strange in that great institution, are under, and goodness knows what psychological issues they take to hand —— take home too. and the police, we have been discussing the police, we have been discussing the police, we have been discussing the police this week and what they

had to put up with and deal with on the front line. the had to put up with and deal with on the front line.— the front line. the problem is that the front line. the problem is that the nhs hopes. — the front line. the problem is that the nhs hopes, which _ the front line. the problem is that the nhs hopes, which are - the front line. the problem is that the nhs hopes, which are there i the front line. the problem is that | the nhs hopes, which are there to support— the nhs hopes, which are there to support the emotional well—being, to -ive support the emotional well—being, to give people a safe space to talk about _ give people a safe space to talk about some of these issues, have been _ about some of these issues, have been taken — about some of these issues, have been taken away —— the nhs hubs. research— been taken away —— the nhs hubs. research at— been taken away —— the nhs hubs. research at the british psychological society has found there _ psychological society has found there is — psychological society has found there is a — psychological society has found there is a misunderstanding between there is a misunderstanding between the top _ there is a misunderstanding between the top level of management at the workers _ the top level of management at the workers themselves on well—being policies _ workers themselves on well—being policies. well—being for many people is a bit _ policies. well—being for many people is a bit of— policies. well—being for many people is a bit of a _ policies. well—being for many people is a bit of a checkbox, it is a bit of somebody came in to train you on this _ of somebody came in to train you on this this— of somebody came in to train you on this this is— of somebody came in to train you on this. this is my personal issue, i deliver— this. this is my personal issue, i deliver how— this. this is my personal issue, i deliver how we can look after ourselves, but putting the onus on the person. — ourselves, but putting the onus on the person, we can have tools and ways _ the person, we can have tools and ways of— the person, we can have tools and ways of dealing with low—level stress — ways of dealing with low—level stress and anxiety and burnout but if i stress and anxiety and burnout but if i send _ stress and anxiety and burnout but if i send somebody straight back to the toxic— if i send somebody straight back to the toxic environment that is not being _ the toxic environment that is not being changed, there needs to be a systemic— being changed, there needs to be a systemic change before anything happens — systemic change before anything happens. let systemic change before anything ha ens. , , ,

happens. let me be the devils advocate. _ happens. let me be the devils advocate, satan's _ happens. let me be the devils advocate, satan's solicitor. i i happens. let me be the devils i advocate, satan's solicitor. i can hear some people saying this, watching at home, listening at home, we didn't have well—being causes or people coming in in my day and we turned up for work. just people coming in in my day and we turned up for work.— people coming in in my day and we turned up for work. just because you tolerated it at _ turned up for work. just because you tolerated it at that _ turned up for work. just because you tolerated it at that point _ turned up for work. just because you tolerated it at that point and - turned up for work. just because you tolerated it at that point and you i tolerated it at that point and you coped _ tolerated it at that point and you coped for — tolerated it at that point and you coped for it does not make it ok. she in_ coped for it does not make it ok. she in hertfordshire, i will be with you, but i think we havejulie in leinster. —— sheena in hertfordshire. this sounds like a much better line, julie.- hertfordshire. this sounds like a much better line, julie. from the self-employed — much better line, julie. from the self-employed point _ much better line, julie. from the self-employed point of _ much better line, julie. from the self-employed point of view, i much better line, julie. from the i self-employed point of view, richard self—employed point of view, richard from newport, i know exactly how he felt. 18 months ago i was diagnosed with breast cancer, which was a shock to the system at the best of times. me and my husband are self—employed. i went through surgery, needed time off because it is quite intrusive, then i had a

choice of radiotherapy and i thought i'd best do the five—day intense because otherwise it is another month off work, which i did. basically the radiotherapy ruined all the reconstruction that was done. so now, one year later, i am having to go for more reconstruction, having to have more time off, instead of having three weeks off, but at the time it was, i'd best get back to work, it is coming up christmas in a few months, because we don't get any help. we have a mortgage, there seems to be nothing out there. we had savings because both my parents died in the last couple of years, so we had some inheritance, but that was for retirement, as we saw it, because we don't have private pensions, we have never had enough money to put extra in a pension, so that has been eaten away at because we are self—employed

and i have been ill. paar away at because we are self-employed and i have been ill.— and i have been ill. poor you, my heart goes _ and i have been ill. poor you, my heart goes out — and i have been ill. poor you, my heart goes out to _ and i have been ill. poor you, my heart goes out to you, _ and i have been ill. poor you, my heart goes out to you, what i and i have been ill. poor you, my heart goes out to you, what you | and i have been ill. poor you, my- heart goes out to you, what you have been through is terrible. what is the phrase i used earlier, you just have to push on through, and it is so difficult. i have to push on through, and it is so difficult-— so difficult. i have gone back to work after _ so difficult. i have gone back to work after trying _ so difficult. i have gone back to work after trying this _ so difficult. i have gone back to work after trying this new... it| so difficult. i have gone back to | work after trying this new... it is called lipofill, that has not worked either, i went for that because it was only four weeks off. i am going backin was only four weeks off. i am going back in november, they want to do another six to eight hour reconstruction operation which is probably two months off work. i had to think do i go through with that or leave it as it is and not bother, for the sake of money. our mortgage is nothing like his but it has gone up is nothing like his but it has gone up £120 a month and you have to find the extra money, plus the electric at such a. my husband puts �*s job it's probably the worst one this

summer, he has been a window cleaner for 40 years it has been a bad summer, so you are dipping into your little fund every time and there is no way of making it up any more. it very difficult. really difficult. what do you do, if i may ask? i am a artner in what do you do, if i may ask? i am a partner in my — what do you do, if i may ask? i am a partner in my husband's _ what do you do, if i may ask? i am a partner in my husband's business i what do you do, if i may ask? i am a| partner in my husband's business but i do the inside cleaning, i do domestic cleaning, privately. and i do the inside cleaning, i do domestic cleaning, privately. and it is the question _ domestic cleaning, privately. and it is the question i _ domestic cleaning, privately. and it is the question i asked _ domestic cleaning, privately. and it is the question i asked richard, i is the question i asked richard, when you are working, down on your knees and doing all that cleaning and stretching and bending and all of the stuff we all have to do when we clean, and you are worrying about all this other stuff, it is desperate?— all this other stuff, it is deserate? . . , , ., . desperate? plus i have lymphoedema too, which desperate? plus i have lymphoedema too. which is — desperate? plus i have lymphoedema too, which is very _ desperate? plus i have lymphoedema too, which is very painful, _ desperate? plus i have lymphoedema too, which is very painful, so - desperate? plus i have lymphoedema too, which is very painful, so at i too, which is very painful, so at the end of the day i have had to cut back, i can't do what i used to. as the medication they have put me on causes your joints to

the medication they have put me on causes yourjoints to permanently ache, it causes me to have trigger finger in my right hand, and i'm right—handed, iam finger in my right hand, and i'm right—handed, i am struggling through that. they want me to have an operation on my finger but it will have to wait for another day. very, very hard. julie, you had said it all, thank you. i wish you all the best. sheena in watford, good morning. what do you reckon? who; the best. sheena in watford, good morning. what do you reckon? why is this happening? _ morning. what do you reckon? why is this happening? why _ morning. what do you reckon? why is this happening? why are _ morning. what do you reckon? why is this happening? why are people i this happening? why are people taking _ this happening? why are people taking more _ this happening? why are people taking more time _ this happening? why are people taking more time off? _ this happening? why are people taking more time off? more. this happening? why are people taking more time off?— this happening? why are people taking more time off? more sick days than any point _ taking more time off? more sick days than any point in _ taking more time off? more sick days than any point in the _ taking more time off? more sick days than any point in the last _ taking more time off? more sick days than any point in the last decade? i than any point in the last decade? my than any point in the last decade? my company does not actually give any sick leave. _ my company does not actually give any sick leave, so _ my company does not actually give any sick leave, so if— my company does not actually give any sick leave, so if i— my company does not actually give any sick leave, so if i fall— my company does not actually give any sick leave, so if i fall ill- my company does not actually give any sick leave, so if i fall ill it i any sick leave, so if i fall ill it needs— any sick leave, so if i fall ill it needs to _ any sick leave, so if i fall ill it needs to come _ any sick leave, so if i fall ill it needs to come from - any sick leave, so if i fall ill it needs to come from my- any sick leave, so if i fall ill it needs to come from my set i any sick leave, so if i fall ill it - needs to come from my set vacation, or i needs to come from my set vacation, or i need _ needs to come from my set vacation, or i need to _ needs to come from my set vacation, or i need to buy— needs to come from my set vacation, or i need to buy holiday _ needs to come from my set vacation, or i need to buy holiday days, - needs to come from my set vacation, or i need to buy holiday days, i- or i need to buy holiday days, i basically— or i need to buy holiday days, i basically need _ or i need to buy holiday days, i basically need to _ or i need to buy holiday days, i basically need to buy _ or i need to buy holiday days, i basically need to buy that. in l or i need to buy holiday days, i. basically need to buy that. in my previous— basically need to buy that. in my previousjob _ basically need to buy that. in my previousjob it_ basically need to buy that. in my previous job it was _ basically need to buy that. in my previous job it was very - basically need to buy that. in myl previous job it was very stressful, i was _ previous job it was very stressful, i was in _

previous job it was very stressful, i was in the — previous job it was very stressful, i was in the media, _ previous job it was very stressful, i was in the media, i— previous job it was very stressful, i was in the media, i was- previous job it was very stressful, i was in the media, i was falling l i was in the media, i was falling ill a i was in the media, i was falling ill 6 lot, — i was in the media, i was falling ill 6 lot, i— i was in the media, i was falling ill 6 lot, i got _ i was in the media, i was falling ill a lot, i got sick— i was in the media, i was falling ill a lot, i got sick days, - i was in the media, i was falling ill a lot, i got sick days, and - i was in the media, i was falling ill a lot, i got sick days, and i. ill a lot, i got sick days, and i really— ill a lot, i got sick days, and i really have _ ill a lot, i got sick days, and i really have not _ ill a lot, i got sick days, and i really have not taken - ill a lot, i got sick days, and i really have not taken any- ill a lot, i got sick days, and ii really have not taken any sick ill a lot, i got sick days, and i- really have not taken any sick days in this_ really have not taken any sick days in this new— really have not taken any sick days in this new company _ really have not taken any sick days in this new company because - really have not taken any sick days in this new company because i'm l really have not taken any sick days . in this new company because i'm not wanting _ in this new company because i'm not wanting to _ in this new company because i'm not wanting to have _ in this new company because i'm not wanting to have to _ in this new company because i'm not wanting to have to buy— in this new company because i'm not wanting to have to buy the _ in this new company because i'm not wanting to have to buy the holiday. i wanting to have to buy the holiday. ithink— wanting to have to buy the holiday. i think a _ wanting to have to buy the holiday. i think a tot — wanting to have to buy the holiday. i think a tot of— wanting to have to buy the holiday. i think a lot of people _ wanting to have to buy the holiday. i think a lot of people had - wanting to have to buy the holiday. i think a lot of people had stress. i think a lot of people had stress and it— i think a lot of people had stress and it is— i think a lot of people had stress and it is really— i think a lot of people had stress and it is really hard _ i think a lot of people had stress and it is really hard to _ i think a lot of people had stress and it is really hard to manage. i and it is really hard to manage. from _ and it is really hard to manage. from my— and it is really hard to manage. from my point _ and it is really hard to manage. from my point of— and it is really hard to manage. from my point of view - and it is really hard to manage. from my point of view i - and it is really hard to manage. from my point of view i feel- and it is really hard to manage. from my point of view i feel i. and it is really hard to manage. i from my point of view i feel i am not able — from my point of view i feel i am not able to— from my point of view i feel i am not able to take _ from my point of view i feel i am not able to take sick _ from my point of view i feel i am not able to take sick leave - from my point of view i feel i am not able to take sick leave at - from my point of view i feel i ami not able to take sick leave at this point _ not able to take sick leave at this point through _ not able to take sick leave at this point. through my— not able to take sick leave at this point. through my private - not able to take sick leave at this - point. through my private insurance, i point. through my private insurance, iusuatty— point. through my private insurance, iusuatty go _ point. through my private insurance, iusuatty go for — point. through my private insurance, i usually go for appointments - point. through my private insurance, i usually go for appointments on - point. through my private insurance, i usually go for appointments on the | i usually go for appointments on the weekend~ _ i usually go for appointments on the weekend~ my— i usually go for appointments on the weekend. my attitude _ i usually go for appointments on the weekend. my attitude is _ i usually go for appointments on the weekend. my attitude is i— i usually go for appointments on the weekend. my attitude is i am - i usually go for appointments on the weekend. my attitude is i am just i weekend. my attitude is i am just happy— weekend. my attitude is i am just happy to— weekend. my attitude is i am just happy to be — weekend. my attitude is i am just happy to be working. _ weekend. my attitude is i am just happy to be working. bul- weekend. my attitude is i am “ust happy to be workingi happy to be working. but you sometimes — happy to be working. but you sometimes have _ happy to be working. but you sometimes have to _ happy to be working. but you sometimes have to just - happy to be working. but you sometimes have to just grit l happy to be working. but you i sometimes have to just grit your teeth and do it? i sometimes have to 'ust grit your teeth and do it?— sometimes have to 'ust grit your teeth and do it? i have had a career break, so teeth and do it? i have had a career break. so being _ teeth and do it? i have had a career break, so being at _ teeth and do it? i have had a career break, so being at work— teeth and do it? i have had a career break, so being at work is - teeth and do it? i have had a career break, so being at work is less - break, so being at work is less stressfut— break, so being at work is less stressful because _ break, so being at work is less stressful because looking - break, so being at work is less stressful because looking for l break, so being at work is less stressful because looking for a break, so being at work is less - stressful because looking for a job was more — stressful because looking for a job was more stressful— stressful because looking for a job was more stressful than _ stressful because looking for a job was more stressful than being - stressful because looking for a job was more stressful than being in. stressful because looking for a jobj was more stressful than being in a 'ob. was more stressful than being in a job i_ was more stressful than being in a job ithink— was more stressful than being in a job i think it — was more stressful than being in a job i think it is _ was more stressful than being in a job. i think it is probably— was more stressful than being in a job. i think it is probably i- job. i think it is probably i obviously— job. i think it is probably i obviously prioritise - job. i think it is probably i obviously prioritise my i job. i think it is probably i- obviously prioritise my mental health— obviously prioritise my mental health but— obviously prioritise my mental heatth but i— obviously prioritise my mental health but i think— obviously prioritise my mental health but i think a _ obviously prioritise my mental health but i think a lot- obviously prioritise my mental health but i think a lot of- obviously prioritise my mental. health but i think a lot of people, because — health but i think a lot of people, because of— health but i think a lot of people, because of the _

health but i think a lot of people, because of the fact _ health but i think a lot of people, because of the fact that - health but i think a lot of people, because of the fact that i- health but i think a lot of people, because of the fact that i don't i because of the fact that i don't have _ because of the fact that i don't have any— because of the fact that i don't have any sick— because of the fact that i don't have any sick days _ because of the fact that i don't have any sick days to - because of the fact that i don't have any sick days to take - because of the fact that i don't i have any sick days to take unless i'm have any sick days to take unless i'm really — have any sick days to take unless i'm really sick, _ have any sick days to take unless i'm really sick, because - have any sick days to take unless i'm really sick, because i- have any sick days to take unless i'm really sick, because i work. have any sick days to take unless i i'm really sick, because i work from home _ i'm really sick, because i work from home and _ i'm really sick, because i work from home and i— i'm really sick, because i work from home and i manage... _ i'm really sick, because i work from home and i manage... i— i'm really sick, because i work from home and i manage... i take - i'm really sick, because i work from home and i manage... i take a - i'm really sick, because i work from i home and i manage... itake a break when— home and i manage... itake a break wheni— home and i manage... itake a break when i want— home and i manage... itake a break when i want and _ home and i manage... itake a break when i want and i— home and i manage... itake a break when i want and i kind _ home and i manage... itake a break when i want and i kind of— home and i manage... itake a break when i want and i kind of work- when i want and i kind of work around— when i want and i kind of work around my— when i want and i kind of work around my family— when i want and i kind of work around my family and- when i want and i kind of work around my family and what . when i want and i kind of work around my family and what i l when i want and i kind of work- around my family and what i need to do. . . around my family and what i need to do. . , , . , , , �* do. that is the phrase, unless i'm really sick- _ do. that is the phrase, unless i'm really sick. different _ do. that is the phrase, unless i'm really sick. different people, - really sick. different people, different definitions. let me put that to audrey tang. some companies less generous than others? that that to audrey tang. some companies less generous than others?— less generous than others? that is the problem _ less generous than others? that is the problem when _ less generous than others? that is the problem when it _ less generous than others? that is the problem when it comes - less generous than others? that is the problem when it comes to - less generous than others? that is. the problem when it comes to being able to set your own rules, there is no real structure as to what counts is really sick and what is just sick, and sometimes people had to make their own decisions, which is even worse, because people want to succeed. work is an opportunity to get praise, improve your skills, meet other people and actually boost your life, but the problem is if it is not supported, with all the other

pressures, and the landscape is changing and if the systems do not support that because they are functioning on a 19505 style workplace, it will not help people. this is why i think a bigger reform or restructure needs to happen. i or restructure needs to happen. i will do some text in a minute, loads of them, it is notjust the work you are doing but the people you are working with. you might not be in a very... conducive, genial environment. in very... conducive, genial environment.— very... conducive, genial environment. �* . environment. in 1959, i've 'ust delivered�* environment. in 1959, i've 'ust delivered a fi environment. in 1959, i've 'ust delivered a session, �* environment. in 1959, i'vejust delivered a session, hertzberg environment. in 1959, i'vejust- delivered a session, hertzberg said you needed to have five salary, managers who supported you but were not micromanaging, and healthy relationships were part of that. as well as achievement and opportunities to grow. good colleagues. _ opportunities to grow. good colleagues. the _ opportunities to grow. good colleagues. the practical. opportunities to grow. good i colleagues. the practical steps opportunities to grow. good - colleagues. the practical steps that were as important _ colleagues. the practical steps that were as important as _ colleagues. the practical steps that were as important as the _ colleagues. the practical steps that were as important as the more - were as important as the more motivational, psychological ones. if thatis motivational, psychological ones. if that is the case then more people

find a greater deal of satisfaction. when it comes to who you are working with and it can be who you report to, is the situation psychologically safe or will you be blamed if you raise an issue? will you be made about cats? alternatively the people you are working with, you can get people who you might have a personality clash with all they might frustrate you in some way, you might frustrate you in some way, you might frustrate you in some way, you might frustrate them, healthy relationships are so important in well—being generally. up up it has been long known that we leave our managers rather than leaving the profession, as it were, so we'll leave one job and not leave the field. but in terms of our relationships at work, they can be communities of copan, a real help to us, but they can also be a reason we think, i don't want to be here any more. white matter more than and progressive workplaces, college you get on with, and not the office

sniping that some people sometimes complain of. let me do some text here. this complain of. let me do some text here. �* . , complain of. let me do some text here. a . complain of. let me do some text here. a , ., , here. as i say, big volumes. good mornina, here. as i say, big volumes. good morning. nicky- — here. as i say, big volumes. good morning, nicky. good— here. as i say, big volumes. good morning, nicky. good morning. i here. as i say, big volumes. good morning, nicky. good morning. ll morning, nicky. good morning. i always tell young people and anyone else that is a company says they have a yoga class, do not work there. we are doing this so you don't leave the building and go to your choice of yoga class. i have similarfeelings your choice of yoga class. i have similar feelings about companies that describe themselves as a family. that is from gavin. thank you. listen, right. i family. that is from gavin. thank you. listen, right. lam a gp family. that is from gavin. thank you. listen, right. i am a gp and see lots of sickness and time off work. some of the issues are patients of long waiting lists for operations or outpatient clinics, waiting for hospital treatment to get better. patients with mental health problems are also waiting for ages for treatment. this is definitely more mental health issues, often due to work, home or family stress. far more now

post—pandemic when patients are iugghng post—pandemic when patients are juggling a lot of life stresses and work is often the first thing to go. we have had a lot of sickness in our practice. stress, covid and more serious illness like cancer. we can signpost to practitioner support, but they still come into a stressful work environment, and we know it will not change due to the current state of the nhs. that is from finello. sorry i can't call them, because i am doing appraisals on nurses. thanks for that. hello, team. can you ask people who call in and admit time off, do they not feel guilty letting their colleagues down who might need to fill in or pick up their work in? that is from viv. i was a contractor in a public service, self employed in the public sector. i was reticent about taking leave, let alone sickness, but the full—time staff were very different. the team had been hit with serious problems, and staff began going off with stress and sickness. this became so severe, over half the team were offered the same illness. some

were offered the same illness. some were legitimate, but some were clearlyjumping on the bandwagon. i will do one more. mental health and stress is the new bad back. that is from tony. i will do one more. rude not to. mental health is... hang on, i was self—employed in my younger days, nevertook hang on, i was self—employed in my younger days, never took a day off sick. i have recently finished in the public sector after 11 years and only took five days off due to covid. in my opinion, sick pay should only be paid to the public sector salary jobs after five days with a sick note from the doctor. statistics don't lie. what a selection! more to come. what is the time? 9:34am. join us after the news. bbc radio 5 live. the voice the uk. listen— bbc radio 5 live. the voice the uk. listen on— bbc radio 5 live. the voice the uk. listen on bbc— bbc radio 5 live. the voice the uk. listen on bbc sounds _ bbc radio 5 live. the voice the uk. listen on bbc sounds and - bbc radio 5 live. the voice the uk. listen on bbc sounds and watch . listen on bbc sounds and watch iptayer — here is the news in the sport. thank you, nicky. a5 here is the news in the sport. thank you, nicky. as we have been

hearing of uk workers have been taking more sick days and at any time in the last decade. the chartered institute of personnel and development is blaming stress, covid and the cost of living crisis. home secretary suella braverman is to question whether the un's 1951 to question whether the un'51951 refugee convention is fit for our modern age. she is making a speech in washington, dc later. hundreds of schools in scotland are closed because of a strike over pay by support staff. the three day work—out, involving kitchen workers, classroom assistants and cleaners, effects 2a council areas. and water companies have been told to pay £114 million back to customers after failing to meet key targets. the industry regulator 0fwat says firms are falling short on leakages, supply and reducing pollution. let's get the sport now. thanks, nick. good morning. being the manager sarina wiegman says it will feet— the manager sarina wiegman says it will feel special but strange to face a — will feel special but strange to face a home country the netherlands and the _ face a home country the netherlands and the women's nations league later tonight _ and the women's nations league later tonight it _ and the women's nations league later tonight. it is the first time she

has returned with england. england striker— has returned with england. england striker alessia rousseau is also available — striker alessia rousseau is also available after being rested against scotland _ available after being rested against scotland last week. in the nowjoint top of— scotland last week. in the nowjoint top of their— scotland last week. in the nowjoint top of their group. former scotland and everton striker duncan _ former scotland and everton striker duncan ferguson will be the new inverness— duncan ferguson will be the new inverness caledonian thistle manager. he left forest green rovers injuty_ manager. he left forest green rovers injuly following just manager. he left forest green rovers in july following just one win in 18 games— in july following just one win in 18 games in— in july following just one win in 18 games in charge after which they were _ games in charge after which they were relegated from league 1. and in— were relegated from league 1. and in cricket, england's assistant coach _ and in cricket, england's assistant coach markus trescothick says freddie — coach markus trescothick says freddie flintoff has sprinkled gold dust on— freddie flintoff has sprinkled gold dust on the team. he has been recovering _ dust on the team. he has been recovering from a serious car accident _ recovering from a serious car accident filming top gear. he joined antand _ accident filming top gear. he joined england as a mentor in the 0d! series— england as a mentor in the 0d! series against ireland. trescothick says they— series against ireland. trescothick says they will be keen on him doing it again _ says they will be keen on him doing it again you — says they will be keen on him doing it again. you can listen to ball by ball commentary of the third 0di on five tive _ ball commentary of the third 0di on five live sports extra from 12:15pm. antand _ five live sports extra from 12:15pm. england lead 1—0. say— england lead 1—0. say play bbc news to most smart speakers, — say play bbc news to most smart speakers, and— say play bbc news to most smart speakers, and you _ say play bbc news to most smart speakers, and you will— say play bbc news to most smart speakers, and you will get - say play bbc news to most smart speakers, and you will get the i speakers, and you will get the latest — speakers, and you will get the latest headlines— speakers, and you will get the latest headlines and _ speakers, and you will get the latest headlines and in—depthl latest headlines and in—depth reports — latest headlines and in—depth reports on _ latest headlines and in—depth reports on international, - latest headlines and in—depth - reports on international, national and tocat— reports on international, national and local stories _ reports on international, national and local stories that _ reports on international, national and local stories that matter- reports on international, national and local stories that matter to l and local stories that matter to you _

you. for. you~ - for your you. — for your news, you _ for your news, when you — for your news, when you you. — for your news, when you want you. for your news, when you want it, 'ust for your news, when you want it, just say— for your news, when you want it, just say ptay _ for your news, when you want it, just say ptay bbc _ for your news, when you want it, just say play bbc news. - nicky campbell. listen on bbc sounds and watch on iplayer. good morning. are we too quick to be on the sick? that is what we are discussing this morning. uk workers are taking more sick days than at any point in the past decade. right back with that. let me tell you what is coming up at ten o'clock videos on bbc news and bbc two. the latest national and international news. on the radio with me, we have got, five live, of course, and bbc sounds, a really interesting one, because home secretary suella braverman is going to address this issue in a speech in washington today to a centre—right think tank. she says it is time to review and united nations 1951 refugee convention and ask if it is

fit for our modern age. it was drawn up, of course, in the aftermath of world war ii, 1951, the holocaust, a devastating war which ravaged europe. she says, orwill say, there are vast swathes of the world where it is extremely difficult to be gay or be a woman, where individuals are being persecuted. is it right we offer sanctuary? we will not be able to sustain an asylum system if, in effect, simply being gay or a woman orfearful of effect, simply being gay or a woman or fearful of discrimination in your country of origin is sufficient to qualify for a protection. really interesting. where do you think the line should be drawn? the question at ten on the radio, what makes a refugee? call for free. 0r text. being a text will be charged at your standard message

rate. and she says that... are one of the statistics on one think has come up with is, if we go by the criteria of the 1951 refugee convention, 780 million people would qualify for refugee status. that is coming up at 10am. and nick in poole talking about are we too quick to go on the sick humour can also, sally, and tom in bristol. good to have you all on. tom in bristol, business psychologist. how interesting. what do you make of these figures give a there are a number of points i would like to pick out. the show is titled, are way too quick to go on the sick? my counter to that is really just to try and understand it. ithink it is really just to try and understand it. i think it is complex. i think the question is, have we previously

been too slow not to go? in the spirit of rhyming. and i think there is an issue here that needs to be considered. we talk about absenteeism, the construct of presenteeism, which is people turning up to work when they are probably not really fit to work, so they are not realising their potential and their capacity when they are in work anyway. and looking at the figures, i think it is particularly interesting that we see greater rates of absenteeism in the workforce within the public service sector, and that points to me to wider systemic issues. i think it's very easy to highlight individuals and say they just very easy to highlight individuals and say theyjust need to roll up their sleeves and toughed it out. i think resilience a5 a term is misunderstood, this kind of idea of stiff upper lip and get on with it is really unhelpful. but particularly within the context of the public service sector, we see

massive recruitment crisis across health and education in particular, and the impact of that on the individuals who are in positions within those areas is massively pressurised, because they are already working with scant resource to be able to do theirjobs effectively, and there is an inevitability that when you are carrying probably more than the workload of one, that the net result is that people are going to become unwell. so i think reducing the conversation to one where it is a matter of individual choice doesn't really adequately reflect the real challenges, notjust post covid, but some of the wider systemic issues, particularly within the public service sector, which relate to recruitment and retention, and also, really quite significant underfunding. and if you look at that within the health service

sector specifically, we are talking about people being not well enough to work. the health sector is one example within the public sector, it is massively under resourced at the moment, so people aren't able to access the kind of help that they need, whether that be physiological health support for physical health conditions or, indeed, mental health conditions. and the mental health service sector in this country at the moment is absolutely on its knees, and employees are increasingly expected to pick up the can with that, and that creates huge systemic pressure, so that is kind of really the context that i am coming from in terms of the work that i do, with all of these bits and pieces that contribute to this situation. i and pieces that contribute to this situation. ., and pieces that contribute to this situation. . ., , and pieces that contribute to this situation. . . , , .~' and pieces that contribute to this situation. . . , , _ ., situation. i am really struck by two slow not to — situation. i am really struck by two slow not to go- _ situation. i am really struck by two slow not to go. these _ situation. i am really struck by two slow not to go. these are - situation. i am really struck by two slow not to go. these are really i slow not to go. these are really significant points. there is a debate about resourcing a5 significant points. there is a debate about resourcing as well that we will not get into. —— too slow

not to go. i think you will be really interested in sally, not her really interested in sally, not her real name, in the south—east. you are off at the moment, i think i am right in saying, sally. good morning to you.— am right in saying, sally. good morning to you. am right in saying, sally. good mornin: to ou. ., morning to you. good morning, nicky. wh so?! morning to you. good morning, nicky. why so? i am — morning to you. good morning, nicky. why so? i am never— morning to you. good morning, nicky. why so? i am never off _ morning to you. good morning, nicky. why so? i am never off work, - morning to you. good morning, nicky. why so? i am never off work, and - morning to you. good morning, nicky. why so? i am never off work, and it i why so? i am never off work, and it is ironic, why so? i am never off work, and it is ironic. i — why so? i am never off work, and it is ironic, i turned _ why so? i am never off work, and it is ironic, i turned on _ why so? i am never off work, and it is ironic, i turned on this _ why so? i am never off work, and it is ironic, i turned on this morning . is ironic, i turned on this morning and you _ is ironic, i turned on this morning and you have _ is ironic, i turned on this morning and you have got this subject coming up, so _ and you have got this subject coming up, so actually, it has been quite a relief— up, so actually, it has been quite a relief for— up, so actually, it has been quite a relief for me — up, so actually, it has been quite a relief for me to realise how much you are _ relief for me to realise how much you are helping, actually, by listening _ you are helping, actually, by listening to all of this. i think i have _ listening to all of this. i think i have got— listening to all of this. i think i have got quite a specialised position— have got quite a specialised position in an inner school, and it has got _ position in an inner school, and it has got a — position in an inner school, and it has got a very toxic environment, and it— has got a very toxic environment, and it has— has got a very toxic environment, and it hasjust become... it became unmanageable this week, but there have been— unmanageable this week, but there have been comments from management in the past _ have been comments from management in the past that say all the schools are like _ in the past that say all the schools are like this. they are all like this, — are like this. they are all like this, you _ are like this. they are all like this, you know, everyone is under pressure —

this, you know, everyone is under pressure so— this, you know, everyone is under pressure. so it seems that there is an excuse — pressure. so it seems that there is an excuse that we have got to bear out. an excuse that we have got to bear out so _ an excuse that we have got to bear out so here — an excuse that we have got to bear out. so here is actually going to change — out. so here is actually going to change it? — out. so here is actually going to change it? who is actually going to step in— change it? who is actually going to step in and — change it? who is actually going to step in and help? because, you know, it means _ step in and help? because, you know, it means we _ step in and help? because, you know, it means we will never go forward. and, _ it means we will never go forward. and. yes, — it means we will never go forward. and. yes, i— it means we will never go forward. and, yes, iam replaceable, iam. but that— and, yes, iam replaceable, iam. but that takes time. it takes time to go— but that takes time. it takes time to go through the system, if i am going _ to go through the system, if i am going to — to go through the system, if i am going to be — to go through the system, if i am going to be replaced, and the turnover— going to be replaced, and the turnover is so high within schools, and, _ turnover is so high within schools, and. you _ turnover is so high within schools, and, you know, the people that suffer— and, you know, the people that suffer in— and, you know, the people that suffer in the end are the actual chitdren~ — suffer in the end are the actual children. and i know there are things— children. and i know there are things that can't happen in that school— things that can't happen in that school now because i am not there this week— school now because i am not there this week will stop but, you know, i had to— this week will stop but, you know, i had to reach— this week will stop but, you know, i had to reach out to all the services that i_ had to reach out to all the services that i can — had to reach out to all the services that i can do — had to reach out to all the services that i can do this weekjust to keep myself— that i can do this weekjust to keep myself 0k~ — that i can do this weekjust to keep myself 0k. and there are genuine peopte _ myself 0k. and there are genuine people like myself are generally off sick, and _ people like myself are generally off sick, and they are put into a stigmatised category then for being off. ~ ., stigmatised category then for being off. . ., ., , ., stigmatised category then for being off. . . . , off. what about supportive colleagues? _ off. what about supportive colleagues? well, -

off. what about supportive colleagues? well, i - off. what about supportive colleagues? well, i think. off. what about supportive | colleagues? well, i think it off. what about supportive - colleagues? well, i think it goes... there isn't — colleagues? well, i think it goes... there isn't time _ colleagues? well, i think it goes... there isn't time to _ colleagues? well, i think it goes... there isn't time to have _ colleagues? well, i think it goes... there isn't time to have that, - colleagues? well, i think it goes... there isn't time to have that, and i j there isn't time to have that, and i think— there isn't time to have that, and i think it's _ there isn't time to have that, and i think it's so — there isn't time to have that, and i think it's so busy within the school that they— think it's so busy within the school that they can't, and i have reached out quite _ that they can't, and i have reached out quite a — that they can't, and i have reached out quite a few times, and in the end, _ out quite a few times, and in the end. with — out quite a few times, and in the end, with what was going on, and then— end, with what was going on, and then in— end, with what was going on, and then in the — end, with what was going on, and then in the end, it came to a point where— then in the end, it came to a point where i_ then in the end, it came to a point where ijust— then in the end, it came to a point where ijust couldn't cope any more, i where ijust couldn't cope any more, i had _ where ijust couldn't cope any more, i had to— where ijust couldn't cope any more, i had to go — where ijust couldn't cope any more, i had to go. and it is only now that they have — i had to go. and it is only now that they have had to look at it.- they have had to look at it. well, i am really pleased _ they have had to look at it. well, i am really pleased you _ they have had to look at it. well, i am really pleased you got - they have had to look at it. well, i am really pleased you got in - they have had to look at it. well, i | am really pleased you got in touch, and even more pleased that you found this useful, this conversation, and i suppose these figures will come as absolutely no surprise to you at the moment, given the pressures being brought to bear on so many people and organisations, for so many reasons as well. how are you feeling in yourself, as my granny would have said, right now? you know, as i say, i think people have _ you know, as i say, i think people have got— you know, as i say, i think people have got to — you know, as i say, i think people have got to talk more. they have got to talk— have got to talk more. they have got to talk more — have got to talk more. they have got to talk more. and i think there needs— to talk more. and i think there needs to — to talk more. and i think there needs to be that openness, and you need _ needs to be that openness, and you need to— needs to be that openness, and you need to try— needs to be that openness, and you need to try and... the early warning signs— need to try and... the early warning signs need _ need to try and... the early warning signs need to — need to try and... the early warning signs need to be seen and recognised, i think,

signs need to be seen and recognised, ithink, and if that means— recognised, ithink, and if that means more specialised roles in organisations, then maybe we should look organisations, then maybe we should took at _ organisations, then maybe we should look at that. because, you know, life is— look at that. because, you know, life is tough — look at that. because, you know, life is tough anyway at the moment, so what _ life is tough anyway at the moment, so what happens with this added pressure. — so what happens with this added pressure, and people want theirjob, they enjoy— pressure, and people want theirjob, they enjoy theirjob and they want to help _ they enjoy theirjob and they want to help and come home feeling we have done — to help and come home feeling we have done a good job. most people would _ have done a good job. most people would like — have done a good job. most people would like that. tom _ would like that. tom in bristol, do you want to come back on that? something about what sally said struck me, we need to talk more. sally said struck me, we need to talk more-— sally said struck me, we need to talk more. , ., . . , talk more. yes, i do, and actually, a lot of the — talk more. yes, i do, and actually, a lot of the work _ talk more. yes, i do, and actually, a lot of the work i _ talk more. yes, i do, and actually, a lot of the work i do _ talk more. yes, i do, and actually, a lot of the work i do is _ talk more. yes, i do, and actually, a lot of the work i do is within - a lot of the work i do is within education, so sally, one thing i would say listening to you is, someone like you, from what you have just articulated, probably aren't as easily replaceable a5 just articulated, probably aren't as easily replaceable as you think. and i think the education sector is highly, highly pressurised. and i think some of the targets by which schools are measured and massively

unhelpful. i think we are talking about non—attendance of employees, but within the education sector at the moment, we've got record levels of non—of children, which is kind of really part of, i think, what sally is probably experiencing within her workplace, where what we are measuring people by our very fixed performance targets, so within the context of schools, it's about getting children in 90% of the time. it's about a fixed number of gcse5. and actually, that adds a huge amount of pressure, because schools are being judged by criteria that might not be as individualised a5 might not be as individualised as they need to be to recognise local context, to recognise where schools are in the communities they are serving, and that can put pressure on management, because people are judged by criteria that they have very little control over, and within

the specific context of education, we have the tragic case of ruth perry, the primary school head teacher in redding who sadly ended her life by suicide, and that gives us a very real indication, particularly within education and the public service sector, of this disconnect between policy at a central government level, and the workplace that people are expected to move on. just to conclude, that is the kind of systemic change that must happen, nicky. these are complex issues that aren't helped by reducing them to kind of simplistic perspectives, and i really feel that is where we are at the moment. it needs bolder, more courageous leadership to recognise that these are long—term and complex issues that must be addressed. if are long—term and complex issues that must be addressed. iii are long-term and complex issues that must be addressed.— are long-term and complex issues that must be addressed. if i may, i think we are _ that must be addressed. if i may, i think we are getting _ that must be addressed. if i may, i think we are getting a _ that must be addressed. if i may, i think we are getting a real - that must be addressed. if i may, i think we are getting a real sense . that must be addressed. if i may, i | think we are getting a real sense of that from the panoply of colours and textures this morning. thank you so much, tom, business psychologist.

got in touch with us, as has ross in telford and julie in chillingham. ross, in a minute. julie, what is happening with you at the minute? i am in a similar situation to a couple — i am in a similar situation to a couple of— i am in a similar situation to a couple of people you have heard. i have _ couple of people you have heard. i have got— couple of people you have heard. i have got non—hodgkin's, and i don't -et have got non—hodgkin's, and i don't get sick— have got non—hodgkin's, and i don't get sick pay. — have got non—hodgkin's, and i don't get sick pay, so much like i was saying. — get sick pay, so much like i was saying. my— get sick pay, so much like i was saying, my appointments are quite often _ saying, my appointments are quite often on _ saying, my appointments are quite often on the phone. every four months. — often on the phone. every four months. i_ often on the phone. every four months, i have a phone call rather than _ months, i have a phone call rather than take — months, i have a phone call rather than take time off to go to the appointment. sol than take time off to go to the appointment. so i don't get proper checkups — appointment. so i don't get proper checkups. because ijust feel like, you know. — checkups. because ijust feel like, you know, your bills fall behind, everything. it really affects you when _ everything. it really affects you when you — everything. it really affects you when you have to have a day or two off. and it's off. - and it's a off. — and it's a vicious cycle as off. and it's a vicious cycle as well, because then your mental well—being, your stress levels soar, and that is not good for your health, and one thing it's another thing worse. know, exactly. a few years ago, i

worked _ know, exactly. a few years ago, i worked in — know, exactly. a few years ago, i worked in a — know, exactly. a few years ago, i worked in a care home when we did -et worked in a care home when we did get sick— worked in a care home when we did get sick pay. — worked in a care home when we did get sick pay, and when i was having my chemotherapy and everything, it is a godsend. you know, it is less stress _ is a godsend. you know, it is less stress on — is a godsend. you know, it is less stress on you. you are not thinking about— stress on you. you are not thinking about your— stress on you. you are not thinking about your bills quite so much, and you are _ about your bills quite so much, and you are just— about your bills quite so much, and you are just thinking about getting well. whereas now, i am thinking, do i well. whereas now, i am thinking, do | -o well. whereas now, i am thinking, do i go to— well. whereas now, i am thinking, do i go to the _ well. whereas now, i am thinking, do i go to the appointment or do i go to work? — i go to the appointment or do i go to work? and it is all right for people — to work? and it is all right for people to _ to work? and it is all right for people to say, your health is more important. — people to say, your health is more important, but it is... you do really— important, but it is... you do really think— important, but it is... you do really think about your mortgage and your bills. _ really think about your mortgage and our bills. �* u. . really think about your mortgage and our bills. �* .., , i. really think about your mortgage and our bills. �* , ., �* really think about your mortgage and ourbills. , your bills. because if you don't pay our your bills. because if you don't pay your mortgage. — your bills. because if you don't pay your mortgage. you _ your bills. because if you don't pay your mortgage, you can't - your bills. because if you don't pay your mortgage, you can't meet - your bills. because if you don't pay| your mortgage, you can't meet your bills, your health deteriorates a5 bills, your health deteriorates as well, so... bills, your health deteriorates as well. so- - -_ bills, your health deteriorates as well, so. . ._ all. well, so... exactly, exactly. all the best to _ well, so... exactly, exactly. all the best to you, _ well, so... exactly, exactly. all the best to you, and _ well, so... exactly, exactly. all the best to you, and i - well, so... exactly, exactly. all the best to you, and i hope - the best to you, and i hope everything gets better and works out. anna in helmsley, good morning. good morning, hi. ihlice out. anna in helmsley, good morning. good morning, hi.— good morning, hi. nice to talk to ou. so, good morning, hi. nice to talk to you- so. what — good morning, hi. nice to talk to you. so, what is _ good morning, hi. nice to talk to you. so, what is happening - good morning, hi. nice to talk to you. so, what is happening withl good morning, hi. nice to talk to - you. so, what is happening with you? i used to working the local authority, and we were called in to authority, and we were called in to a meeting one day by our manager. no

idea what it was about. and she sat us down and said, we have got an issue with the department, and she said, we have been told we are not taking enough sick days stop they assume we are not working hard enough. they said, can you all take two sick days, please. i was staggered. i came from private industry previously, before the public sector. and they all happily agreed to do it. and for me, that just goes against everything i believe in. so i wondered, really, how reflective the figures are for true sick leave. figs how reflective the figures are for true sick leave.— true sick leave. as ever, i am a little bit slow _ true sick leave. as ever, i am a little bit slow and _ true sick leave. as ever, i am a little bit slow and the _ true sick leave. as ever, i am a little bit slow and the uptake i true sick leave. as ever, i am a - little bit slow and the uptake here. i don't understand the... you know, it might be completely obtuse, stupid, but what is the connection between not taking enough sick pay and the inference that you are not working hard enough?— working hard enough? well, they think ou

working hard enough? well, they think you should _ working hard enough? well, they think you should be _ working hard enough? well, they think you should be more - working hard enough? well, they i think you should be more stressed. other departments had higher sich rates, so they were suggesting we have got it too easy. cit}. rates, so they were suggesting we have got it too easy.— rates, so they were suggesting we have got it too easy. 00, ok. i got there! well. _ have got it too easy. 00, ok. i got there! well, that _ have got it too easy. 00, ok. i got there! well, that is _ have got it too easy. 00, ok. i got there! well, that is extraordinary! | there! well, that is extraordinary! i know. this is what i thought. and this was a long time ago, but it still sticks with me, and i message this morning, because it incensed me so much. yes, you are not being driven enough! nose to the grindstone! it is not close enough to the grindstone. and you are not taking sick days, which proves you are not working hard enough! this is sliehtl are not working hard enough! this is slightly dickensian, _ are not working hard enough! this is slightly dickensian, isn't _ are not working hard enough! this is slightly dickensian, isn't it?! - are not working hard enough! this is slightly dickensian, isn't it?! it - slightly dickensian, isn't it?! it is rather! wow! _ slightly dickensian, isn't it?! it is rather! wow! ross _ slightly dickensian, isn't it?! it is rather! wow! ross in - slightly dickensian, isn't it?! it| is rather! wow! ross in telford, aood is rather! wow! ross in telford, good morning- _ is rather! wow! ross in telford, good morning. morning, - is rather! wow! ross in telford, good morning. morning, nicky. | is rather! wow! ross in telford, - good morning. morning, nicky. how are ou good morning. morning, nicky. how are you doing? _ good morning. morning, nicky. how are you doing? i— good morning. morning, nicky. how are you doing? i am _ good morning. morning, nicky. how are you doing? i am well— good morning. morning, nicky. how are you doing? i am well thank- good morning. morning, nicky. how are you doing? i am well thank you. | are you doing? i am well thank you. more importantly, _ are you doing? i am well thank you. more importantly, how— are you doing? i am well thank you. more importantly, how are - are you doing? i am well thank you. more importantly, how are you - are you doing? i am well thank you. i more importantly, how are you doing? not too bad, thank you. ifound it not too bad, thank you. i found it quite _ not too bad, thank you. i found it quite interesting that while we have -ot quite interesting that while we have got rising _ quite interesting that while we have got rising sickness, that we have also got — got rising sickness, that we have also got a — got rising sickness, that we have also got a feeling, underfunded health— also got a feeling, underfunded health and social care system, we

have _ health and social care system, we have got — health and social care system, we have got a — health and social care system, we have got a cost of living crisis where — have got a cost of living crisis where we _ have got a cost of living crisis where we know people are cutting down _ where we know people are cutting down on _ where we know people are cutting down on essentials like heating their— down on essentials like heating their homes, and skipping meals. now. _ their homes, and skipping meals. now. we — their homes, and skipping meals. now, we were told last winter that obviously. — now, we were told last winter that obviously, people turning off the heat in _ obviously, people turning off the heat in their home would lead to sickness. — heat in their home would lead to sickness. we know that skipping meals _ sickness. we know that skipping meals leads to sickness. and yet we are not— meals leads to sickness. and yet we are not putting the two things together. and there are historic precedents for things like this, where — precedents for things like this, where governments and societies have not looked _ where governments and societies have not looked after people. i mean, the reason _ not looked after people. i mean, the reason we _ not looked after people. i mean, the reason we had school meals in this country— reason we had school meals in this country was — reason we had school meals in this country was because after the boer war the _ country was because after the boer war the government and army were so appalled _ war the government and army were so appalled by— war the government and army were so appalled by the malnutrition of recruits — appalled by the malnutrition of recruits that they realised they had to feed _ recruits that they realised they had to feed the population in order to have _ to feed the population in order to have a _ to feed the population in order to have a strong population. and yet we are going _ have a strong population. and yet we are going backwards. it is madness. it is are going backwards. it is madness. it is crazy— are going backwards. it is madness. it is crazy that these things are not being — it is crazy that these things are not being logically put together and realising _ not being logically put together and realising that, you know, if you have _ realising that, you know, if you have a — realising that, you know, if you have a healthy, happy workforce, they are — have a healthy, happy workforce, they are not going to call in sick. if they are not going to call in sick. if you _ they are not going to call in sick. if you can— they are not going to call in sick. if you can get a doctor present a appointment and you could see someone — appointment and you could see someone on the day or within 48 hours. _ someone on the day or within 48 hours, people aren't going to be set for as— hours, people aren't going to be set for as long — hours, people aren't going to be set

for as long. and it'sjust remarkable that these things just don't... _ remarkable that these things just don't... no— remarkable that these things just don't... no one seems to be joining up don't... no one seems to be joining up the _ don't... no one seems to be joining up the dots. — don't... no one seems to be joining up the dots, and it is baffling, absolutely baffling. an _ absolutely baffling. an army marches on its stomach. not to be well fed. bonaparte or somebody said that. excellent, thank you. surge in nottingham. matthew percival in a second, cbi director of future of work and skills. that will be interesting. he is coming up. morning, matthew. first off, surge in nottingham. what would you like to say to assume a —— serge. whatever you would like to say, we would like to hear it. i think the laws in the country now for people who providejobs, we are being targeted for who provide 'obs, we are being tareeted ., . . . targeted for whatever reason. if a erson is targeted for whatever reason. if a person is ill. _ targeted for whatever reason. if a person is ill, they _ targeted for whatever reason. if a person is ill, they just _ targeted for whatever reason. if a person is ill, theyjust need - targeted for whatever reason. if a person is ill, theyjust need to - person is ill, theyjust need to pick up the phone. you can track them, you can't do anything about it. you have to cope with that. and if i can cope with that, i no longer need them. —— mike if i can cope without them. i have several chip

shops, eventually li5t without them. i have several chip shops, eventually list them all out, and i have gone down to just having and i have gone down to just having a fish and chip van, where me and my wife run it, we don't let anybody down, and even when we are ill a little bit, we still do ourjob. and if we are ill, which a lady usually is due to some arthritis,, she still gets up and goes to work with me. sir, you know, you are freelance. so why do you think, from your perspective, that uk workers are taking the sick days than at any other point in the last decade? truth? other point in the last decade? why is because other point in the last decade? tarry is because when they other point in the last decade? hisrg is because when they do phone in sick, they already have money there. the government is paying them more than enough money to stay home. i have another business in india. we don't get sick where people ringing

up don't get sick where people ringing up sick, because they know if they're off, that's coming off their wage. there is no one to argue with. you have more than a few days off, you are replaced. wow. it is the nation has a microphone in. everybody is welcome. lots to get into here, matthew percival, cbi director of work and skills. good morning.— percival, cbi director of work and skills. good morning. good morning. what is your— skills. good morning. good morning. what is your diagnosis _ skills. good morning. good morning. what is your diagnosis of _ skills. good morning. good morning. what is your diagnosis of this - what is your diagnosis of this statistic? is what is your diagnosis of this statistic? . ., what is your diagnosis of this statistic? , ., ., ., , . statistic? is not going to be a surrise statistic? is not going to be a surprise to — statistic? is not going to be a surprise to business - statistic? is not going to be a surprise to business leaders. statistic? is not going to be a - surprise to business leaders across the country to see the results of the country to see the results of the survey, because it is what they are seeing in their workplaces day in and day out. i was with some small businesses up in sheffield last week, and two different businesses gamy different examples of the sort of impact. one of them talk to me about the impact that the number of people off who are waiting for operations as having, but another talk to me about how they have recently started offering private medical insurance to their staff to try and help them, because they acknowledge it is becoming a

real economic issue if their workers are off sick, and it's all accentuated by this issue of worker shortages and the difficulty in hiring people. the more people who are out of work sick, the more difficult it is to be able to meet what your customers need from you and to grow, and so more and more businesses, we are seeing, are looking at what they can do to play a proactive role in helping people stay healthy, rather than only address the problem after people are off sick. there are a lot of issues here, though, aren't there, coming into play? it is a perfect storm... i hate that phrase. it is a terrible storm. but there is an awful lot going on?— storm. but there is an awful lot eoein on? . . ., ., ,, , going on? there are a lot of issues eoein on, going on? there are a lot of issues going on. but _ going on? there are a lot of issues going on, but some _ going on? there are a lot of issues going on, but some of _ going on? there are a lot of issues going on, but some of them, - going on? there are a lot of issues i going on, but some of them, though, are messages that employers can play are messages that employers can play a more positive role than they are at the moment, and there are things government can do that can also help them to do more. so, for example, one of our pieces of analysis suggests that we could help to reduce sickness absence by between

ten and 20% by employers taking a more proactive role and thinking about it in that keeping healthy space, ratherthan about it in that keeping healthy space, rather than dealing with it after somebody is off sick. and in our submission to the chancellor ahead of the autumn statement coming up, we have said that we want to address a problem where some people have to turn down health benefits that their employers are willing to offer them because they are taxable benefits. so some workers are facing a choice between having to take a hit to their pay or being able to access something like an employee assistance programme. what do you do, matthew? pushed on through, orsay, i what do you do, matthew? pushed on through, orsay, lam notable what do you do, matthew? pushed on through, or say, i am not able to go to work today? i through, or say, i am not able to go to work today?— to work today? i am in an office base jump. _ to work today? i am in an office base jump. so _ to work today? i am in an office base jump, so we _ to work today? i am in an office base jump, so we have - to work today? i am in an office base jump, so we have a - to work today? i am in an office | basejump, so we have a middle ground as well. yes, occasionally there is the pushing through if you are feeling not quite 100%. but at the same time, i am fortunate enough to be in a position where if i am not too sick to but can potentially

spread a cough or cold to colleagues, then i will work from home for the day. that is an option available to everybody, but it is something we have seen changed quite a bit in office—based environments where people can work in different ways. are there steps we can all take to help avoid spreading illnesses to our colleagues? queue very much. — illnesses to our colleagues? queue very much, matthew— illnesses to our colleagues? queue very much, matthew percival, - illnesses to our colleagues? queue very much, matthew percival, and | very much, matthew percival, and everyone. we will continue this conversation after 10am aren't five live. i will ask what makes a refugee. time to say goodbye to viewers on bbc news and bbc two.

live from london, this is bbc news. thousands flee nagorno—karabakh a5 armenia says an explosion at a fuel depot has killed 20 people and injured 200 more. a5 france withdraws its ambassador and ceases military co—operation with niger, the bbc gets rare access and gathers reactions from the ground. friday prayers have been held here right outside the french military base. hundreds of people are in attendance. in today's sermon it was said that in a divorce between a man and woman, take time. justin trudeau says honouring a former nazi soldier in parliament last week was deeply embarrassing for all canadians. and london police say they're investigating allegations of sexual offences involving comedian russell brand.

hello.