good morning. welcome to the nation's phone in. we really wa nt we really want to hear from you, this morning. it is your chance to express your view on and experience the big story of the day. knives. is your teen safe? horror at the tragic death of a 15—year—old girl on her way to school in croydon, south london, yesterday. it isn't just a it isn'tjust a croydon or london problem, it is a national problem. witnesses have described how she was stabbed with a foot—long knife. a 17—year—old boy has been arrested. as you know, we can't go into the details of that case. but we can talk about the issue. one of the cards left near the attack said," sorry we live in this crazy world, this makes no sense". can you or we

make sense of it, any sense of it? what conversations have you had with your teenagers about this? how do we stop young people carrying lethal weapons and what do we need to do to stop more young people being killed? i want to hear from young people, parents, police, politicians, teachers, community workers. get in touch with your experience. it's a huge issue. we're going to talk about it for the next two hours. knives — is your teen safe? good morning, here's the news. thanks, nikki. a 15—year—old girl who was killed on her way to school has been described as having a bright future. flowers and cards have been placed near the scene of her stabbing

in croydon, south london. police are continuing to question a 17—year—old boy in connection with her death. a bbc investigation has found over 150 reports of police officers misusing their body—worn cameras. in some cases, they're being switched off when force is used. in others, footage is being shared on social media. the officer in charge of the cameras says the majority of recordings show good practice. a major study suggests a significant number of the uk's wildlife species are at risk of dying out. the state of nature paper assessed 10,000 species of plants, mammals, insects, birds and amphibians and found that 16% were threatened with extinction. the government says it's committed to increasing the amount of habitat for nature to thrive. pharmacists say millions of people wrongly believe they are allergic to penicillin, which could mean they take longer to recover after an infection. about 4 million people in the uk have the drug allergy on their medical record, but when tested 90% of them are not allergic. the royal pharmaceutical society says many people confuse antibiotic side—effects with an allergic reaction.

it does just seem nonsensical to so many of us, doesn't it? kids carrying these horrible, lethal, disgusting weapons. recently, the home secretary, suella braverman, was talking about this and she wrote to constables of all 43 police forces in england and wales to give them backing on what she described as common—sense policing. the whole issue of stop and search came up. that will come up in our conversation, this morning. gangs, what is a gang? recent data suggests that the majority of knife crime is not gang—related. why? why are young

people carrying these weapons and carrying out these acts of violence? on each other. yet another tragic death in a litany of tragic deaths. puja kanda joins us. her son was murdered in 2022 who ordered a ninja blade online. the person who murdered her son. we also have someone who used to carry a knife themselves 15 years ago. call me on 08085 909693, text 85058. tell us your thoughts on this, your experiences of it and also an overview, you know, looking on from afar. everybody is welcome on this, it is such an important national conversation to have on a national phone in. puja, iam heartbroken,

one of the top cops described this as every parent's worst nightmare. pooja, welcome to the nation's phone in, what is that nightmare like? good morning, everyone. i can't say good morning, because... every day. it is like a living nightmare, the pain is constant, losing the way i lost ronan, you get nightmares sleeping, waking up. it is indigestable pain. it is at the core of your heart and in your soul, screaming for your child. and i know there is another mother now in croydon crying for her daughter, her child and i know her pain. ifeel it. child and i know her pain. i feel it. ~ , ., ., , , .,

it. when you heard the news, you must have — it. when you heard the news, you must have had... _ it. when you heard the news, you must have had... i _ it. when you heard the news, you must have had... i mean, - it. when you heard the news, you must have had... i mean, it- it. when you heard the news, you must have had... i mean, it is- it. when you heard the news, you. must have had... i mean, it is with you all the time, it never leaves you, but all these thoughts and that intense pain must have come flooding back to you. what happened to your son? ., . . , , back to you. what happened to your son? ., . ., , . ~' back to you. what happened to your son? ., ., , ., ~ ., , son? ronan was 'ust walking outside the house, son? ronan wasjust walking outside the house, coming _ son? ronan wasjust walking outside the house, coming back— son? ronan wasjust walking outside the house, coming back from - son? ronan wasjust walking outside the house, coming back from his- the house, coming back from his friends house only two doors away. he was nearly home when the murderers came behind him and, without him knowing, they stabbed him in his heart and without him knowing, they stabbed him in his heartand in without him knowing, they stabbed him in his heart and in his stomach. 20 centimetres and 17 centimetres deep inside. ronan didn't stand a chance. knowing what happened to him this way, he tried to make it to home with what he's just gone

through. he didn't. hejust collapsed on the road. he bled to death. the child of mine didn't stand a chance at all, he didn't stand a chance at all, he didn't stand a chance to... he wouldn't have survived the way he was murdered, he wouldn't have survived the wound is because of the sword is... the penetration of the sword was so deep inside his body, deep inside his heart. it went through his heart. he wouldn't have survived that. and... because this wasn't actually for somebody else's child, this was a mistaken identity. and i can't keep getting why they have to leave the house... why would they leave the house... why would they leave the house with swords? even the judge

said that, you left the house with a sword with the intention to kill. you just killed accidentally somebody else, you killed accidentally, another child. who had nothing to do with you. nothing to do with your agenda. nothing to do with your... money. but you just killed... taken a child's life over mistaken identity but you left the house with intentions to kill. they did. and they took my son's life. fix, did. and they took my son's life. a sword?! how they were running behind him... no, i'm saying a sword, the weapon, the weapon, a sword?— no, i'm saying a sword, the weapon, the weapon, a sword? yeah. i saw the weaon the weapon, a sword? yeah. i saw the weapon for— the weapon, a sword? yeah. i saw the weapon for the — the weapon, a sword? yeah. i saw the weapon for the first _ the weapon, a sword? yeah. i saw the weapon for the first time _ the weapon, a sword? yeah. i saw the weapon for the first time in _ the weapon, a sword? yeah. i saw the weapon for the first time in the - weapon for the first time in the court. i collapsed. weapon for the first time in the court. icollapsed. i weapon for the first time in the court. i collapsed. i collapsed.

knowing that dangerous, long sword... when i was told for the first time there is a dangerous machete, i looked on the internet trying to show what a machete looks like —— trying to search. i had never seen a machete because i have no need for machetes, me and my children don't need to look for these things and i got all kinds of shapes. they look so ugly. dangerous. lethal. and when i saw for the first time the shape and the... how long the sword was, i collapsed. in the... court. knowing this went through my son. my son didn't stand a chance. i knew it. ronan wouldn't stand a chance. because the whole of the sword went in heart here. —— went in his heart

here. in heart here. -- went in his heart here. ., ., ., �* , here. tell me about ronan. i've been readin: here. tell me about ronan. i've been reading this — here. tell me about ronan. i've been reading this morning _ here. tell me about ronan. i've been reading this morning about _ here. tell me about ronan. i've been reading this morning about him, - here. tell me about ronan. i've been reading this morning about him, he l reading this morning about him, he sounds like a wonderful young man. absolutely. talking about him... you can tell what a wonderful, loving, caring son of mine... he made me laugh. he was an imitator. we all had such a great bond. we actually played articulate together. we spend christmases together. we actually spend time with each other. we spend. ronan made us laugh, he was the glue and the soul of the family. he was so humble, caring, that i even, today, get messages from random people telling me the stories of how ronan has impacted their life

at school. how much he helped them at school. how much he helped them at school. how much he helped them at school. and how he protected them from getting bullied at school. knowing that's my son makes me very proud of him. i am proud of ronan. he had morals and values and he showed them to everyone. why are these kids leaving home with these weapons? it's the culture. it's the culture around knife crime. ugly... the bigger the knife, you look cool. you carry it, you look cool look cool. you carry it, you look cool. you just have to... looking at the sword, that word was used on ronan and other machetes and other

swords and knives. because the murder of ronan, he didn'tjust buy one sword, he bought up to 25. these kids are not thinking of what it can do to otherfamilies. kids are not thinking of what it can do to other families. to their own families. it's a culture around it. yeah. and they're not thinking about something else, as well. they're not thinking about the fact that, and, obviously, it's secondary but it is something that will affect their lives forever, they're not thinking about the fact that this will have... far—reaching, momentous consequences on their own lives. they will be sent to prison. that life ending moment is life changing for them. why don't they understand

that? why don't they understand the consequences? obviously... what you say so powerfully and directly and truly, the consequences to families, families are being ripped apart, lives that they've changed forever, such as yours, and you are speaking brilliantly, but why don't they realise that they are finished, as well? i realise that they are finished, as well? , ., ., , ., ., realise that they are finished, as well? ., , ., , well? i give you a very good example here. the moment the sentencing was told for my... for the murderers of my son, one of the murder raised his hands to his family and gave a thumbs up to his family like that, like he'sjust won thumbs up to his family like that, like he's just won an award. when i looked at the murderer, he was doing this to his parents and was, like, no guilt, no... there is no guilt, no guilt, no... there is no guilt, no remorse. he's taken a life of a

16—year—old. he didn't mean to take and yet he is raising his hand, saying it's all right. that's because the parenting is going wrong somewhere. they are not scared. i mean, he was doing his gcses in the jail, he was re—taking his exams in the jail. so, whatever he was doing outside, he's still getting to do them in the jail. his other murderer is still with him. he's still got a friend that was outside in the same jail with him. what difference it has made in his life... his name is everywhere. there is no remorse he has shown. i really don't know why they are not scared, why are they not scared to go to jail?

have you... how long was he sent to jailfor? have you... how long was he sent to “ail for? ., , , have you... how long was he sent to “ail for? . , , ., ' ~ have you... how long was he sent to “ailfor? , ., ' ~y ., , jail for? one was sent for 16 years. and the other _ jail for? one was sent for 16 years. and the other one _ jail for? one was sent for 16 years. and the other one was _ jail for? one was sent for 16 years. and the other one was sent - jail for? one was sent for 16 years. and the other one was sent for - jail for? one was sent for 16 years. and the other one was sent for 18. and the other one was sent for 18 years, who... prabjeet veadhesa was 18 years. years, who... prab'eet veadhesa was 18 ears. ., ., years, who... prab'eet veadhesa was 18 yeah at - years, who... prab'eet veadhesa was 18 yeah at thel 18 years. how old were they? at the time of murder— 18 years. how old were they? at the time of murder they _ 18 years. how old were they? at the time of murder they were _ 18 years. how old were they? at the time of murder they were both - 18 years. how old were they? at the time of murder they were both 16. l time of murder they were both 16. oh. would you consider if they considered it, would you consider meeting them, restorative justice? try and get into their heads? you will never get _ try and get into their heads? vm. will never get into their head. i have seen it. they didn't show no remorse.

there is no way trying to get into their head. they have already committed the crime. if you want to get into somebody�*s head, if you want to give that time and effort, we need to do that to somebody who is going to do the crime before. reach them before. once they've committed the crime, they have done the worst of all. trying to help them... once he raised his thumbs, his hands, like that, the parents should have been saying, "no, you put the hand down". his parents should have been saying, "put your head down, you just kill that mother's child", which i would have done if my son did that —— you just killed. but they didn't. so, trying to get into their head... it is not important any more. what is important any more. what is important is get into the heads of the youth who might commit crime.

now. . . the youth who might commit crime. now. ., ., ., ., , ., now. yeah, i want to... yeah, yeah. what was — now. yeah, i want to... yeah, yeah. what was the _ now. yeah, i want to... yeah, yeah. what was the parents' _ now. yeah, i want to... yeah, yeah. what was the parents' reaction? - now. yeah, i want to... yeah, yeah. what was the parents' reaction? did | what was the parents' reaction? did you clock that?— what was the parents' reaction? did you clock that? when the parents... she raised her— you clock that? when the parents... she raised her hands _ you clock that? when the parents... she raised her hands like _ you clock that? when the parents... she raised her hands like that. - you clock that? when the parents... she raised her hands like that. she l she raised her hands like that. she said, "it's ok". she was crying. just before the sentencing. was going to be announced. all the way through, she had not shed a tear. butjust before the sentencing, she cried. those tears that she cried, i cried. those tears that she cried, i cried every single second of my life. and what do you want to happen, what's your campaign? mr; and what do you want to happen, what's your campaign? my campaign is about banning — what's your campaign? my campaign is about banning all— what's your campaign? my campaign is about banning all the _ what's your campaign? my campaign is about banning all the bladed _ about banning all the bladed articles online. all the dangerous weapons to be banned online. the

murderers were able to, they were 16, collect these dangerous, lethal weapons. so easily. that's what's happening. the murderer prabjeet veadhesa collected up to 25 machetes, swords and knives, i want them banned from online sale. we them banned from online sale. i've not a text them banned from online sale. i've got a text for _ them banned from online sale. i've got a text for you, pooja. ijust wanted to say that pooja is a national treasure. she has been so composed for her son, and she has just lost her baby boy. she's just lost her baby boy. parents have got to start stepping up, igotan i got an 18—month—old baby boy, what advice can any responsible parent give me? as if parents are not aware of what their children are doing. rip ronan. that is from

darren in hertfordshire. tom in cardigan, thanks for getting in touch. you are in rural wales. and sarah in stockport coming and sarah worked in the care system and a great bit of experience to bring to the table. tom, there are so many mums and dads who are in that situation that was so powerfully expressed by pooja. what do we do? remaining inquisitive with your children — remaining inquisitive with your children. unfortunately, social media — children. unfortunately, social media is— children. unfortunately, social media is a _ children. unfortunately, social media is a massive influence for young _ media is a massive influence for young kids — media is a massive influence for young kids these days. so, try and be young kids these days. so, try and he as— young kids these days. so, try and be as involved in their life as possible _ be as involved in their life as possible. if you've got any concerns, obviously, get in touch with police — concerns, obviously, get in touch with police and social services is all i with police and social services is all i can— with police and social services is all i can plead, really. find with police and social services is alli can plead, really.— alli can plead, really. and what about your— alli can plead, really. and what about your own _ alli can plead, really. and what about your own experience? - alli can plead, really. and what about your own experience? i l all i can plead, really. and what - about your own experience? i mean, everyone thinks this is in a city, you know, this is london,

birmingham, glasgow, manchester. you are calling us from rural west wales, one of the most beautiful parts of britain.— wales, one of the most beautiful parts of britain. yeah, absolutely. it is rife everywhere, _ parts of britain. yeah, absolutely. it is rife everywhere, really. - it is rife everywhere, really. children _ it is rife everywhere, really. children are being exploited, unfortunately, by gangs, but by horrible — unfortunately, by gangs, but by horrible people. so, you know, it is not horrible people. so, you know, it is noiiust_ horrible people. so, you know, it is notjust london. there are criminal gangs _ notjust london. there are criminal gangs all— notjust london. there are criminal gangs all around. that is what they are getting dragged into, unfortunately.— are getting dragged into, unfortunately. are getting dragged into, unfortunatel. ., ., ., unfortunately. sarah, what would you like to say? — unfortunately. sarah, what would you like to say? i— unfortunately. sarah, what would you like to say? i would _ unfortunately. sarah, what would you like to say? i would just _ unfortunately. sarah, what would you like to say? i would just like - unfortunately. sarah, what would you like to say? i would just like to - like to say? i would 'ust like to sa that like to say? i would 'ust like to say that its h like to say? i would 'ust like to say that it's not _ like to say? i would just like to say that it's not really - like to say? i would just like to say that it's not really a - like to say? i would just like to say that it's not really a new. say that it's not really a new problem. _ say that it's not really a new problem, this— say that it's not really a new problem, this knife - say that it's not really a new problem, this knife crime i say that it's not really a new. problem, this knife crime issue. say that it's not really a new- problem, this knife crime issue. i think— problem, this knife crime issue. i think the — problem, this knife crime issue. i think the government _ problem, this knife crime issue. i think the government are - think the government are highlighting _ think the government are highlighting it— think the government are highlighting it a - think the government are highlighting it a lot - think the government are highlighting it a lot at - think the government arej highlighting it a lot at the think the government are - highlighting it a lot at the minute because — highlighting it a lot at the minute because of— highlighting it a lot at the minute because of the _ highlighting it a lot at the minute because of the number— highlighting it a lot at the minute because of the number of- highlighting it a lot at the minute l because of the number of incidents there _ because of the number of incidents there is _ because of the number of incidents there is but— because of the number of incidents there is but i _ because of the number of incidents there is. but i used _ because of the number of incidents there is. but i used to— because of the number of incidents there is. but i used to work- because of the number of incidents there is. but i used to work in- because of the number of incidents there is. but i used to work in the i there is. but i used to work in the care _ there is. but i used to work in the care system — there is. but i used to work in the care system and _ there is. but i used to work in the care system and i— there is. but i used to work in the care system and i worked - there is. but i used to work in the care system and i worked in- there is. but i used to work in the care system and i worked in the l there is. but i used to work in the i care system and i worked in the care system _ care system and i worked in the care system from — care system and i worked in the care system from 2009 _ care system and i worked in the care system from 2009 until— care system and i worked in the care system from 2009 until 2020. - care system and i worked in the care i system from 2009 until 2020. back in 2009. _ system from 2009 until 2020. back in 2009. we _ system from 2009 until 2020. back in 2009. we were — system from 2009 until 2020. back in 2009, we were having _ system from 2009 until 2020. back in 2009, we were having to— system from 2009 until 2020. back in 2009, we were having to remove - 2009, we were having to remove knives. _ 2009, we were having to remove knives, machetes, _ 2009, we were having to remove knives, machetes, from - 2009, we were having to remove knives, machetes, from young i 2009, we were having to remove - knives, machetes, from young people. a lot of— knives, machetes, from young people. a lot of it. _ knives, machetes, from young people. a lot of it. i_

knives, machetes, from young people. a lot of it, ithink, _ knives, machetes, from young people. a lot of it, i think, as— knives, machetes, from young people. a lot of it, i think, as well, _ knives, machetes, from young people. a lot of it, i think, as well, is- a lot of it, i think, as well, is it's_ a lot of it, i think, as well, is it's all— a lot of it, i think, as well, is it's all dependent— a lot of it, i think, as well, is it's all dependent on - a lot of it, i think, as well, is it's all dependent on where l a lot of it, i think, as well, is- it's all dependent on where these young _ it's all dependent on where these young people _ it's all dependent on where these young people grow— it's all dependent on where these young people grow up _ it's all dependent on where these young people grow up. i- it's all dependent on where these i young people grow up. i appreciate it can _ young people grow up. i appreciate it can happen— young people grow up. i appreciate it can happen in— young people grow up. i appreciate it can happen in rural— young people grow up. i appreciate it can happen in rural places, - young people grow up. i appreciate it can happen in rural places, but. young people grow up. i appreciate it can happen in rural places, but a| it can happen in rural places, but a lot of— it can happen in rural places, but a lot of it _ it can happen in rural places, but a lot of it with — it can happen in rural places, but a lot of it with these _ it can happen in rural places, but a lot of it with these young - it can happen in rural places, but a lot of it with these young people . it can happen in rural places, but a lot of it with these young people itj lot of it with these young people it is also _ lot of it with these young people it is also about — lot of it with these young people it is also about survival _ lot of it with these young people it is also about survival on _ lot of it with these young people it is also about survival on the - is also about survival on the streets _ is also about survival on the streets it_ is also about survival on the streets. if they— is also about survival on the streets. if they don't - is also about survival on the streets. if they don't walk . is also about survival on the - streets. if they don't walk around and carry— streets. if they don't walk around and carry a — streets. if they don't walk around and carry a knife, _ streets. if they don't walk around and carry a knife, they've - streets. if they don't walk around and carry a knife, they've got- streets. if they don't walk around and carry a knife, they've got nol and carry a knife, they've got no protection — and carry a knife, they've got no protection if— and carry a knife, they've got no protection if anyone _ and carry a knife, they've got no protection if anyone wants - and carry a knife, they've got no protection if anyone wants to . and carry a knife, they've got no. protection if anyone wants to attack them _ protection if anyone wants to attack them does— protection if anyone wants to attack them does that _ protection if anyone wants to attack them. does that make _ protection if anyone wants to attack them. does that make sense? - protection if anyone wants to attack them. does that make sense? yes, it's what a — them. does that make sense? yes, it's what a lot _ them. does that make sense? yes, it's what a lot of _ them. does that make sense? yes, it's what a lot of the _ them. does that make sense? yes, it's what a lot of the criminal... - them. does that make sense? yes, it's what a lot of the criminal... i i it's what a lot of the criminal... i can't say criminological research has said. pooja, hopefully you are still with us because i would love for you to comment on that. young people carrying these knives because they feel they have to carry these knives and these lethal weapons in order to protect themselves. because others carry — order to protect themselves. because others carry them- — order to protect themselves. because others carry them. exactly. _ order to protect themselves. because others carry them. exactly. there's i others carry them. exactly. there's a kind of arms _ others carry them. exactly. there's a kind of arms race _ others carry them. exactly. there's a kind of arms race going _ others carry them. exactly. there's a kind of arms race going on. - others carry them. exactly. there's| a kind of arms race going on. yeah. i think a kind of arms race going on. yeah. i think the — a kind of arms race going on. yeah. i think the protection _ a kind of arms race going on. yeah. i think the protection for _ a kind of arms race going on. yeah. i think the protection for them - a kind of arms race going on. yeah. i think the protection for them self | i think the protection for them self is just why do they need protection? we need to establish why they need protection? why they say they need protection? why they say they need protection? what do they need protection? what do they need

protection from? unfortunately, that's the way — protection from? unfortunately, that's the way the _ protection from? unfortunately, that's the way the streets - protection from? unfortunately, that's the way the streets are i that's the way the streets are nowadays _ that's the way the streets are nowadays because _ that's the way the streets are nowadays because you've - that's the way the streets are nowadays because you've gotj that's the way the streets are i nowadays because you've got a that's the way the streets are - nowadays because you've got a lot ofm _ nowadays because you've got a lot ofm deprived _ nowadays because you've got a lot of... deprived areas. _ nowadays because you've got a lot of... deprived areas. obviously, . of... deprived areas. obviously, going— of... deprived areas. obviously, going back— of... deprived areas. obviously, going back from _ of... deprived areas. obviously, going back from what _ of... deprived areas. obviously, going back from what the - of... deprived areas. obviously, going back from what the last i of... deprived areas. obviously, - going back from what the last person said in— going back from what the last person said in relation— going back from what the last person said in relation to _ going back from what the last person said in relation to criminal— going back from what the last person said in relation to criminal gangs, - said in relation to criminal gangs, grooming — said in relation to criminal gangs, grooming these _ said in relation to criminal gangs, grooming these young _ said in relation to criminal gangs, grooming these young people, i said in relation to criminal gangs, grooming these young people, as well, _ grooming these young people, as well, that's— grooming these young people, as well, that's a _ grooming these young people, as well, that's a massive _ grooming these young people, as well, that's a massive issue. - grooming these young people, as well, that's a massive issue. and| well, that's a massive issue. and the people — well, that's a massive issue. and the people that _ well, that's a massive issue. and the people that are _ well, that's a massive issue. and the people that are grooming - well, that's a massive issue. and i the people that are grooming these young _ the people that are grooming these young people. _ the people that are grooming these young people they— the people that are grooming these young people, they tend _ the people that are grooming these young people, they tend to - the people that are grooming these young people, they tend to know i the people that are grooming these. young people, they tend to know the kind of— young people, they tend to know the kind of kids _ young people, they tend to know the kind of kids that _ young people, they tend to know the kind of kids that they _ young people, they tend to know the kind of kids that they need _ young people, they tend to know the kind of kids that they need to - young people, they tend to know the kind of kids that they need to hone . kind of kids that they need to hone in on _ kind of kids that they need to hone in on as— kind of kids that they need to hone in on as welt _ kind of kids that they need to hone in on. as well. if— kind of kids that they need to hone in on. as well. if that _ kind of kids that they need to hone in on. as well. if that makes - kind of kids that they need to hone. in on. as well. if that makes sense? young _ in on. as well. if that makes sense? young people — in on. as well. if that makes sense? young people that _ in on. as well. if that makes sense? young people that might— in on. as well. if that makes sense? young people that might seem - young people that might seem vulnerable. _ young people that might seem vulnerable, they— young people that might seem vulnerable, they might - young people that might seem vulnerable, they might not - young people that might seem vulnerable, they might not bel young people that might seem i vulnerable, they might not be in school, — vulnerable, they might not be in school, they— vulnerable, they might not be in school, they might _ vulnerable, they might not be in school, they might be _ vulnerable, they might not be in school, they might be smoking i vulnerable, they might not be in| school, they might be smoking a vulnerable, they might not be in - school, they might be smoking a bit of weed, _ school, they might be smoking a bit of weed, they— school, they might be smoking a bit of weed, they might _ school, they might be smoking a bit of weed, they might be _ school, they might be smoking a bit of weed, they might be involved - school, they might be smoking a bit of weed, they might be involved in. school, they might be smoking a bit| of weed, they might be involved in a bit of— of weed, they might be involved in a bit of criminal— of weed, they might be involved in a bit of criminal activity. _ of weed, they might be involved in a bit of criminal activity. as _ of weed, they might be involved in a bit of criminal activity. as well, - bit of criminal activity. as well, conformity, _ bit of criminal activity. as well, conformity, that _ bit of criminal activity. as well, conformity, that is— bit of criminal activity. as well, conformity, that is a _ bit of criminal activity. as well, conformity, that is a massive . bit of criminal activity. as well, - conformity, that is a massive thing. survival— conformity, that is a massive thing. survival on— conformity, that is a massive thing. survival on the _ conformity, that is a massive thing. survival on the streets. _ conformity, that is a massive thing. survival on the streets. a _ conformity, that is a massive thing. survival on the streets. a lot - conformity, that is a massive thing. survival on the streets. a lot of - survival on the streets. a lot of them _ survival on the streets. a lot of them feel— survival on the streets. a lot of them feel that _ survival on the streets. a lot of them feel that they— survival on the streets. a lot of them feel that they have - survival on the streets. a lot of them feel that they have to - survival on the streets. a lot of. them feel that they have to carry these _ them feel that they have to carry these knives— them feel that they have to carry these knives to _ them feel that they have to carry these knives to conform - them feel that they have to carry these knives to conform or- them feel that they have to carry i these knives to conform or protect themselves — these knives to conform or protect themselves-— these knives to conform or protect themselves. , ., .., , themselves. ok. if they are carrying a knife, themselves. ok. if they are carrying a knife. which _ themselves. ok. if they are carrying a knife, which i _ themselves. ok. if they are carrying a knife, which i understand - themselves. ok. if they are carrying a knife, which i understand what - themselves. ok. if they are carrying|

a knife, which i understand what you are saying, but, at the same time, they might get stabbed by their own lives. they are actually carrying a knife that can kill themselves. and maybe youth clubs need to be open to deter that. maybe youth clubs need to be open to deterthat. i maybe youth clubs need to be open to deter that. i agree we need to work on the culture of these knife crimes. i totally agree with that. and also, as well, i think, like, going _ and also, as well, i think, like, going back— and also, as well, i think, like, going back to— and also, as well, i think, like, going back to a _ and also, as well, i think, like, going back to a point _ and also, as well, i think, like, - going back to a point somebody made about— going back to a point somebody made about the _ going back to a point somebody made about the consequences, _ going back to a point somebody made about the consequences, like, - going back to a point somebody made about the consequences, like, if- going back to a point somebody made about the consequences, like, if you i about the consequences, like, if you do actually— about the consequences, like, if you do actually hurt _ about the consequences, like, if you do actually hurt someone _ about the consequences, like, if you do actually hurt someone or- about the consequences, like, if you do actually hurt someone or you - do actually hurt someone or you murder— do actually hurt someone or you murder someone, _ do actually hurt someone or you murder someone, the _ murder someone, the consequences for everybody— murder someone, the consequences for everybody and _ murder someone, the consequences for everybody and the — murder someone, the consequences for everybody and the consequences - murder someone, the consequences for everybody and the consequences on - everybody and the consequences on the young _ everybody and the consequences on the young person _ everybody and the consequences on the young person carrying _ everybody and the consequences on the young person carrying the - everybody and the consequences on| the young person carrying the knife, as welt _ the young person carrying the knife, as well~ i_ the young person carrying the knife, as welt ithink— the young person carrying the knife, as well. i think more _ the young person carrying the knife, as well. i think more needs - the young person carrying the knife, as well. i think more needs to - the young person carrying the knife, as well. i think more needs to be . as well. i think more needs to be done, _ as well. i think more needs to be done you — as well. i think more needs to be done. you know. _ as well. i think more needs to be done, you know, restorative - as well. i think more needs to be . done, you know, restorative justice as welt _ done, you know, restorative justice as welt getting _ done, you know, restorative justice as well. getting these _ done, you know, restorative justice as well. getting these teens - done, you know, restorative justice as well. getting these teens to - as well. getting these teens to understand _ as well. getting these teens to understand what— as well. getting these teens to understand what they - as well. getting these teens to understand what they are - as well. getting these teens to. understand what they are doing. as well. getting these teens to - understand what they are doing. they are not— understand what they are doing. they are not thinking — understand what they are doing. they are not thinking ten _ understand what they are doing. they are not thinking ten years _ understand what they are doing. they are not thinking ten years down - understand what they are doing. they are not thinking ten years down the l are not thinking ten years down the line how— are not thinking ten years down the line how it— are not thinking ten years down the line how it will— are not thinking ten years down the line how it will affect _ are not thinking ten years down the line how it will affect their- are not thinking ten years down the line how it will affect their lives. . line how it will affect their lives. ithink— line how it will affect their lives. i think they— line how it will affect their lives. i think they need _ line how it will affect their lives. i think they need to _ line how it will affect their lives. i think they need to look- line how it will affect their lives. i think they need to look at - line how it will affect their lives. i i think they need to look at working around _ i think they need to look at working around that — i think they need to look at working around that i— i think they need to look at working around that. i don't _ i think they need to look at working around that. i don't know— i think they need to look at working around that. i don't know if- i think they need to look at working around that. i don't know if they. i think they need to look at working around that. i don't know if they doj around that. i don't know if they do it around that. idon't know if they do it but— around that. i don't know if they do it but going — around that. idon't know if they do it but going into—

around that. i don't know if they do it but going into schools _ around that. idon't know if they do it but going into schools or- around that. i don't know if they do it but going into schools or into - it but going into schools or into organisations— it but going into schools or into organisations where _ it but going into schools or into organisations where young - it but going into schools or into i organisations where young people are, organisations where young people are to _ organisations where young people are to highlight— organisations where young people are, to highlight this _ organisations where young people are, to highlight this problem. - organisations where young people are, to highlight this problem. if. organisations where young people are, to highlight this problem. if [j are, to highlight this problem. ifi could are, to highlight this problem. could come in there quickly, you know. _ could come in there quickly, you know, there are support services out there, _ know, there are support services out there. it's _ know, there are support services out there, it'sjust that know, there are support services out there, it's just that we need to get people _ there, it's just that we need to get people to — there, it's just that we need to get people to reach out to them. youth justice _ people to reach out to them. youth justice services are fantastic up and down — justice services are fantastic up and down the country. obviously, social— and down the country. obviously, social services. if you do have concerns, _ social services. if you do have concerns, get in touch. you know, we have _ concerns, get in touch. you know, we have those _ concerns, get in touch. you know, we have those specialist support available for parents and for young people _ available for parents and for young people particularly. a lot available for parents and for young people particularly.— people particularly. a lot of the outh people particularly. a lot of the youth services, _ people particularly. a lot of the youth services, though, - people particularly. a lot of the youth services, though, they i people particularly. a lot of the i youth services, though, they don't want _ youth services, though, they don't want to— youth services, though, they don't want to engage _ youth services, though, they don't want to engage in— youth services, though, they don't want to engage in the _ youth services, though, they don't want to engage in the services, i want to engage in the services, these _ want to engage in the services, these young _ want to engage in the services, these young people. _ want to engage in the services, these young people. no. - want to engage in the services, these young people. no. that's want to engage in the services, - these young people. no. that's the issue these young people. that's the issue you've got. maybe these young people.- that's the issue you've got. maybe if- these young people. that's the issue you've got. maybe if you - issue you've got. maybe if you tackle — issue you've got. maybe if you tackle it — issue you've got. maybe if you tackle it with _ issue you've got. maybe if you tackle it with the _ issue you've got. maybe if you tackle it with the parents, - issue you've got. maybe if you tackle it with the parents, get| issue you've got. maybe if you . tackle it with the parents, get the parents _ tackle it with the parents, get the parents or— tackle it with the parents, get the parents or the _ tackle it with the parents, get the parents or the carers— tackle it with the parents, get the parents or the carers on- tackle it with the parents, get the parents or the carers on board. i parents or the carers on board. yeah, _ parents or the carers on board. yeah, absolutely. _ parents or the carers on board. yeah, absolutely. that - parents or the carers on board. yeah, absolutely. that is i parents or the carers on board. yeah, absolutely. that is suchl parents or the carers on board. i yeah, absolutely. that is such an important — yeah, absolutely. that is such an important part. because they are the caregivers _ important part. because they are the caregivers and responsible. we urge them _ caregivers and responsible. we urge them to— caregivers and responsible. we urge them to reach out. if they are concerned, report it to the right people — concerned, report it to the right --eole. �* , , concerned, report it to the right --eole. v , concerned, report it to the right --eole. �*, , ., , people. it's 'ust so sad. it really is. and

people. it'sjust so sad. it really is- and tom _ people. it'sjust so sad. it really is. and tom noble _ people. it'sjust so sad. it really is. and tom noble from - people. it'sjust so sad. it really is. and tom noble from the i people. it'sjust so sad. it really i is. and tom noble from the charity guidint is. and tom noble from the charity guiding young _ is. and tom noble from the charity guiding young minds, _ is. and tom noble from the charity guiding young minds, he _ is. and tom noble from the charity guiding young minds, he used i is. and tom noble from the charity guiding young minds, he used to i guiding young minds, he used to carry a knife 15 years ago and he talks to people carrying knives. good morning. bill talks to people carrying knives. good morning.— talks to people carrying knives. i good morning._ i'm good morning. all right, nick. i'm lookint at good morning. all right, nick. i'm looking at research _ good morning. all right, nick. i'm looking at research done - good morning. all right, nick. i'm looking at research done in - good morning. all right, nick. i'm| looking at research done in london relating to the aspect of this that we have been concentrating on, the kind of arms race and why do people carry them, the majority of research carried into weapon carrying has pointed to self defence and protection as a key reason why young people carry knives. significantly, protecting themselves from others carrying weapons was considered to outweigh the risk of being caught by police, which is the port made —— point made by serin stockport. we recognise the decision to carry knives is often more complex and in many cases, knives are not carried for protection but to intimidate others. facilitate robbery, deliberately injure or kill or simply for perceived power and the status, as well. why did you carry

one, anton? status, as well. why did you carry one. anton?— status, as well. why did you carry one, anton? ., ,., .., ., one, anton? the reason i carried one was to fit in- — my friends did it and it worked. when _ my friends did it and it worked. when i — my friends did it and it worked. when i carried it, it was not banned _ when i carried it, it was not banned. knife carrying was not illegal, — banned. knife carrying was not illegal, to _ banned. knife carrying was not illegal, to carry a knife. to be fair, — illegal, to carry a knife. to be fair, in — illegal, to carry a knife. to be fair, in the _ illegal, to carry a knife. to be fair, in the generation that i got brought— fair, in the generation that i got brought up in, a lot of females carried — brought up in, a lot of females carried knives back then as well. yeah, _ carried knives back then as well. yeah, it— carried knives back then as well. yeah, it is— carried knives back then as well. yeah, it is notjust a male problem. it's yeah, it is notjust a male problem. it's not _ yeah, it is notjust a male problem. it's notjust— yeah, it is notjust a male problem. it's notjust men _ yeah, it is notjust a male problem. it's notjust men, females- yeah, it is notjust a male problem. it's notjust men, females used i yeah, it is notjust a male problem. it's notjust men, females used to i it's notjust men, females used to carry— it's notjust men, females used to carry it _ it's notjust men, females used to carry it a lot _ it's notjust men, females used to carry it a lot. it was for protection but also it was... it's like if_ protection but also it was... it's like if you — protection but also it was... it's like if you didn't carry it, you felt — like if you didn't carry it, you felt naked, you felt like you didn't~~ _ felt naked, you felt like you didn't... you couldn't protect yourself _ didn't... you couldn't protect yourself. but you can protect yourself _ yourself. but you can protect yourself. it's all in the mindset of the mind — yourself. it's all in the mindset of the mind. but when you're involved in certain— the mind. but when you're involved in certain things, either streets... you put _ in certain things, either streets... you put yourself at high risk. so, at any— you put yourself at high risk. so, at any moment, you've got people

that dont— at any moment, you've got people that don't like you who could come and challenge you and put you in a situation _ and challenge you and put you in a situation that will destroy your credibility and your respect. so, i think— credibility and your respect. so, i think why— credibility and your respect. so, i think why i — credibility and your respect. so, i think why i carried it was due to trying _ think why i carried it was due to trying to— think why i carried it was due to trying to belong. think why i carried it was due to trying to belong-— think why i carried it was due to trying to belong. yeah, that goes back to the _ trying to belong. yeah, that goes back to the conformity _ trying to belong. yeah, that goes back to the conformity point, i trying to belong. yeah, that goes back to the conformity point, as i back to the conformity point, as well, _ back to the conformity point, as well, doesn't— back to the conformity point, as well, doesn't it? _ back to the conformity point, as well, doesn't it?— back to the conformity point, as well, doesn't it? yeah. anton, what does" respect" _ well, doesn't it? yeah. anton, what does" respect" mean? _ respect that i thought it was was the more — respect that i thought it was was the more you do for your friends and your group— the more you do for your friends and your group and you stand by them, even— your group and you stand by them, even if— your group and you stand by them, even if you — your group and you stand by them, even if you get yourself in a situation _ even if you get yourself in a situation where you may lose your life and _ situation where you may lose your life and you — situation where you may lose your life and you stick up for your friends, _ life and you stick up for your friends, your respect grows within your group— friends, your respect grows within your group of friends. but the respect now that i speak to young _ but the respect now that i speak to young people, that ain't respect. respect— young people, that ain't respect. respect is— young people, that ain't respect. respect is where you honour the

community. where you don't lie to your friends' — community. where you don't lie to your friends' parents that they are going _ your friends' parents that they are going out— your friends' parents that they are going out to a party when your friends' — going out to a party when your friends' family say they shouldn't lo. friends' family say they shouldn't go. respect is something you do for yourself— go. respect is something you do for yourself that you could give to others — yourself that you could give to others a _ yourself that you could give to others. a lot of these young people these _ others. a lot of these young people these days — others. a lot of these young people these days don't respect themselves. because _ these days don't respect themselves. because they ain't been taught to respect _ because they ain't been taught to respect themselves. they've been taught— respect themselves. they've been taught to — respect themselves. they've been taught to show respect is earned and given _ taught to show respect is earned and given but— taught to show respect is earned and given... but if it is earned and given — given... but if it is earned and given if— given... but if it is earned and given, if you can't respect yourself first, _ given, if you can't respect yourself first, you — given, if you can't respect yourself first, you ain't even earned the respect — first, you ain't even earned the respect yet for yourself. so, how is somebody— respect yet for yourself. so, how is somebody else supposed to earn the respect _ somebody else supposed to earn the respect for— somebody else supposed to earn the respect for the person? i think these — respect for the person? i think these kids— respect for the person? i think these kids need a lot of mentoring. they've _ these kids need a lot of mentoring. they've been left alone. that's because — they've been left alone. that's because of society, not a parents have _ because of society, not a parents have to _ because of society, not a parents have to work all the time. they can't _ have to work all the time. they can't keep— have to work all the time. they can't keep an eye on their kids, what _ can't keep an eye on their kids, what they're doing —— a lot of parents — what they're doing —— a lot of parents have to work all the time.

social— parents have to work all the time. social media is 24—7 in the kids' heads — social media is 24—7 in the kids' heads. there's lots of things that happen— heads. there's lots of things that happen on— heads. there's lots of things that happen on social media that gets into their— happen on social media that gets into their heads and that's because their parents, because of society, where _ their parents, because of society, where parents have to survive. and if they— where parents have to survive. and if they don't... if they are always with— if they don't... if they are always with their— if they don't... if they are always with their kids, they can't feed them, — with their kids, they can't feed them, they can't but electric in, they— them, they can't but electric in, they can't— them, they can't but electric in, they can't put gas in. it's very challenging, very challenging error that these young people are in. two very challenging era. what that these young people are in. two very challenging era.— very challenging era. what kind of violence did _ very challenging era. what kind of violence did you _ very challenging era. what kind of violence did you see _ very challenging era. what kind of violence did you see or _ very challenging era. what kind of. violence did you see or experience? i saw a lot. i saw a lot with my friends — i saw a lot. i saw a lot with my friends getting beaten up, bullied, taken _ friends getting beaten up, bullied, taken. held hostage. myself, i got chased out of buildings, chased out of clubs. i think— buildings, chased out of clubs. i think with — buildings, chased out of clubs. i think with young people, they think that when_ think with young people, they think that when you are involved in a

gang. — that when you are involved in a gang. you _ that when you are involved in a gang, you are more safe that you are not, gang, you are more safe that you are not. you _ gang, you are more safe that you are not. you are — gang, you are more safe that you are not, you are more at risk. you are more _ not, you are more at risk. you are more at _ not, you are more at risk. you are more at risk— not, you are more at risk. you are more at risk to— not, you are more at risk. you are more at risk to yourself and to others — more at risk to yourself and to others around you. sometimes you are with friends _ others around you. sometimes you are with friends that are not even involved _ with friends that are not even involved but you just being there is putting _ involved but you just being there is putting them at risk to you. at risk for them _ putting them at risk to you. at risk for them just to be with you. i don't — for them just to be with you. i don't think— for them just to be with you. i don't think these young people understand that they have a target on their— understand that they have a target on their back and the target could be with— on their back and the target could be with them for the rest of their life and _ be with them for the rest of their life and even when they have kids, some _ life and even when they have kids, some kids — life and even when they have kids, some kids carry the father's name and whatever you do can go on to your— and whatever you do can go on to your kids — and whatever you do can go on to your kids. and the kids even want to be in _ your kids. and the kids even want to be in these — your kids. and the kids even want to be in these circles. sometimes these troubles— be in these circles. sometimes these troubles that these kids are getting into now— troubles that these kids are getting into now is — troubles that these kids are getting into now is generational. that never -ot into now is generational. that never got sorted — into now is generational. that never got sorted. no mediation happened, never— got sorted. no mediation happened, never got _ got sorted. no mediation happened, never got resolved and now the kids are picking — never got resolved and now the kids are picking it up, picking up a fight — are picking it up, picking up a fight that— are picking it up, picking up a fight that they never should have been _ fight that they never should have been in — fight that they never should have been in. that's what happened to us, really _ been in. that's what happened to us, really we _ been in. that's what happened to us, really. we got put into a fight that we had _ really. we got put into a fight that we had to— really. we got put into a fight that we had to pick up the sword and

fight _ we had to pick up the sword and fitht. , i. yeah. once you are around a certain kind of— yeah. once you are around a certain kind of people that speak the same and they— kind of people that speak the same and they are always around you, your mindset— and they are always around you, your mindset changes to how they think and what _ mindset changes to how they think and what they say becomes right. this is— and what they say becomes right. this is why— and what they say becomes right. this is why i say to young people, you need — this is why i say to young people, you need to — this is why i say to young people, you need to analyse your friendship circle _ you need to analyse your friendship circle if— you need to analyse your friendship circle if all— you need to analyse your friendship circle. if all of your friends are saying — circle. if all of your friends are saying the _ circle. if all of your friends are saying the same stuff, there is something wrong. they should be friends _ something wrong. they should be friends that disagree, there has to be a disagreement. that friends that disagree, there has to be a disagreement.— be a disagreement. that is a profound _ be a disagreement. that is a profound thought _ be a disagreement. that is a profound thought and - be a disagreement. that is a profound thought and it i be a disagreement. that is a i profound thought and it applies to everybody in the world. what is the difference between a friendship group, as you put it, and a gang? at, group, as you put it, and a gang? a friendship group, they want the best

for friends _ friendship group, they want the best for friends and who loves them, family. — for friends and who loves them, family, mums, father, cousins, anything — family, mums, father, cousins, anything like that, a friendship circle — anything like that, a friendship circle you _ anything like that, a friendship circle, you want the best for a person— circle, you want the best for a person and _ circle, you want the best for a person and those around them. a gang is a friendship circle that wants to find a _ is a friendship circle that wants to find a belonging, feels rejected from _ find a belonging, feels rejected from the — find a belonging, feels rejected from the community and rejected from the home _ from the community and rejected from the home and they want to find a piece _ the home and they want to find a piece but— the home and they want to find a piece. but broken people cannot mend each other~ _ piece. but broken people cannot mend each other. only a healed person can mend _ each other. only a healed person can mend a _ each other. only a healed person can mend a person. it is trauma bonding. a lot _ mend a person. it is trauma bonding. a lot of— mend a person. it is trauma bonding. a lot of the _ mend a person. it is trauma bonding. a lot of the gangs or trauma bonding _ a lot of the gangs or trauma bonding. they relate to, i have not -ot bonding. they relate to, i have not got a _ bonding. they relate to, i have not got a father, my mum takes drugs, my mum _ got a father, my mum takes drugs, my mum and _ got a father, my mum takes drugs, my mum and dad _ got a father, my mum takes drugs, my mum and dad always work and neglect me and _ mum and dad always work and neglect me and don't give me attention, never— me and don't give me attention, never come _ me and don't give me attention, never come to my football games. all of those _ never come to my football games. all of those stuff forms into hurt. a gang _ of those stuff forms into hurt. a gang is— of those stuff forms into hurt. a gang is a — of those stuff forms into hurt. a gang is a hurt form of friendship that is— gang is a hurt form of friendship that is trying to find healing that hurts _ that is trying to find healing that hurts other people to find healing.

it never works. itjust makes your hurt _ it never works. itjust makes your hurt worse — it never works. it 'ust makes your hurt worse.— it never works. it 'ust makes your hurt worse. ., ., . hurt worse. one more thought. we touched on — hurt worse. one more thought. we touched on this _ hurt worse. one more thought. we touched on this earlier— hurt worse. one more thought. we touched on this earlier on. - hurt worse. one more thought. we touched on this earlier on. why i touched on this earlier on. why don't they realise that they could be sent to prison for 16 years? prison, if you see prison now, it is showboat, — prison, if you see prison now, it is showboat, come in here, he will be all right, _ showboat, come in here, he will be all right, you — showboat, come in here, he will be all right, you can get anything in here _ all right, you can get anything in here, there is nothing that i cannot -et here, there is nothing that i cannot get in _ here, there is nothing that i cannot get in prison— here, there is nothing that i cannot get in prison that they can do outside _ get in prison that they can do outside. the young people and adults iwork— outside. the young people and adults i work with— outside. the young people and adults i work with in prison now, when you sit down _ i work with in prison now, when you sit down and — i work with in prison now, when you sit down and talk with them, it is not what — sit down and talk with them, it is not what they thought it is. boredom, isolation, doing the same thing _ boredom, isolation, doing the same thing over— boredom, isolation, doing the same thing over and over boredom, isolation, doing the same thing overand overagain boredom, isolation, doing the same thing over and over again because you have — thing over and over again because you have two, the deepest part that hurts _ you have two, the deepest part that hurts a _ you have two, the deepest part that hurts a person in prison is when people — hurts a person in prison is when people come to visit and they have

to leave _ people come to visit and they have to leave and they have no control over— to leave and they have no control over when — to leave and they have no control over when the person has to leave them _ over when the person has to leave them i_ over when the person has to leave them. i think these young people, they are _ them. i think these young people, they are being captured, like grooming. county lines. it is an illusion — grooming. county lines. it is an illusion. they showboat it is good but when — illusion. they showboat it is good but when they get into it, every kid that gets _ but when they get into it, every kid that gets into it, they don't like it at all~ — that gets into it, they don't like it at all. that is what jail is. it is like — it at all. that is what jail is. it is like a — it at all. that is what jail is. it is like a honey trap. it is gloating, you will be all right in there — gloating, you will be all right in there. once they go in, they don't like it _ there. once they go in, they don't like it they— there. once they go in, they don't like it. they would not wish it on their— like it. they would not wish it on their friends. this is why they speak— their friends. this is why they speak to _ their friends. this is why they speak to their friends to say, don't come _ speak to their friends to say, don't come in _ speak to their friends to say, don't come in here, stop what you're doing. — come in here, stop what you're doing. it's _ come in here, stop what you're doing, it's not worth it. i did a talk— doing, it's not worth it. i did a talk with— doing, it's not worth it. i did a talk with lifers, every single one and a _ talk with lifers, every single one and a hurt — talk with lifers, every single one and a hurt place, when i did a scenario— and a hurt place, when i did a scenario with them to speak to their old selves. — scenario with them to speak to their old selves, the worst they were speaking — old selves, the worst they were speaking to their old self is, i should — speaking to their old self is, i should never did that, i don't know why i_ should never did that, i don't know why i did _ should never did that, i don't know why i did that, i wish i had people

around _ why i did that, i wish i had people around me — why i did that, i wish i had people around me that could have corrected me, around me that could have corrected me should — around me that could have corrected me, should have never had friends around _ me, should have never had friends around me — me, should have never had friends around me that gloated me to do wrong, _ around me that gloated me to do wrong, i— around me that gloated me to do wrong, i needed someone to tell me no, a _ wrong, i needed someone to tell me no, a parent— wrong, i needed someone to tell me no, a parent strong enough to say, you're — no, a parent strong enough to say, you're not— no, a parent strong enough to say, you're not going out, that kind of stuff _ you're not going out, that kind of stuff yeah, _ you're not going out, that kind of stuff. yeah, very deep.— you're not going out, that kind of stuff. yeah, very deep. thanks very much, stuff. yeah, very deep. thanks very much. anton _ stuff. yeah, very deep. thanks very much, anton noble. _ stuff. yeah, very deep. thanks very much, anton noble. broken - stuff. yeah, very deep. thanks very much, anton noble. broken peoplej much, anton noble. broken people cannot hear each other. let me do some text, a bit late for the news, but i want to reflect on what some people are saying. i cannot thank you enough, pooja kanda. born in cardigan commissariat in stockport, strong contributions. my son was held up by two people in east croydon with a machete. lucky they did not stab him. they took his coat. police went after them but they were out run. they are on the loose doing it to more people. another, i am shocked to hear what happened in croydon yesterday, i have kids in university using public

transport and often coming home late, how are we going to live a normal life from now on? this lady is correct, i live in croydon with teenagers, all about culture, the parents haven't done enough to nurture their kids. thanks for that as well. here is the news. thank you, nicky. investigations are continuing into the fatal stabbing of a 15—year—old girl on her way to school yesterday in south london. the girl, who witnesses say was stabbed in the neck with a large knife, was described as having a bright future. a 17—year—old boy is being questioned. a bbc investigation has found over 150 reports of police officers misusing their body—worn cameras. in some cases, they're being

switched off when force is used. in others, footage is being shared on social media. the officer in charge of the cameras says the majority of recordings show good practice. an independent health think—tank is calling for nhs workers in england to have their student loans written off after ten years of service. the idea has been put forward by the nuffield trust to try to retain staff. the government has rejected the suggestion, saying support is already in place. national grid says the risk of electricity blackouts is much lower this winter compared with last year. it says it's due to increased generation and managing demand, although it's still planning to offer incentives to households to decrease electricity use at peak times. jon wilkinson has your sport. mauricio pochettino says it's about time chelsea's season had a turning point after their 1—0 win over brighton in the third round of the efl cup. they'd won just three of 21 games spanning two seasons before last night's victory. newcastle's win against manchester city sets up

a fourth—round match with manchester united _ west ham will play arsenal, bournemouth take on liverpool, and everton will host burnley, amongst the other ties. the scottish league cup semifinals have also been confirmed. it'll be hearts against rangers, and hibernian against aberdeen, after last night's games. and we'll find out the ryder cup foursomes pairings at the end of this afternoon's opening ceremony in rome. it all starts at three. our coverage starts in 5 live breakfast tomorrow morning.

what a first segment of the programme, extraordinary. ten o'clock, we are discussing knife crime until ten o'clock on the radio and telly. at ten, for viewers on bbc two and bbc news, we'll bring you the latest national and international news. we will carry on our discussion. are our teens safe? thanks again to all of our contributors and those who got in touch in the first part of the programme. pooja kanda, a mum who will not give up, her son ronan who will not give up, her son ronan who was 15. she is determined to stop the knives being sold online. really central to the proliferation of these lethal instruments.

15—year—old brotherjermaine was stabbed in croydon in 2017, now works in schools alongside the met police. hello to you. croydon, lots of people texting us about that particular part of london as well. patrick greene another guest, chief executive of a trust. patrick in hertfordshire. i will continue first, patrick, you got in touch and we had to keep you waiting a little, good morning. we had to keep you waiting a little, good morning-— we had to keep you waiting a little, good morning. good morning, nicky. patrick in hertfordshire, _ good morning. good morning, nicky. patrick in hertfordshire, what - good morning. good morning, nicky. patrick in hertfordshire, what is- patrick in hertfordshire, what is your contribution? it is unbearable, unspeakable, isn't it? it is your contribution? it is unbearable, unspeakable, isn't it?— unspeakable, isn't it? it is so depressing. _ unspeakable, isn't it? it is so depressing. i— unspeakable, isn't it? it is so depressing, i am _ unspeakable, isn't it? it is so depressing, i am a _ unspeakable, isn't it? it is so depressing, i am a retired i unspeakable, isn't it? it is so i depressing, i am a retired police officer, nicky. in 2013, iwrote depressing, i am a retired police officer, nicky. in 2013, i wrote to my local mp at the time, robert halfon, because i was opposed to theresa may's trying to water down threatening police officers not to

do stop and search. in my letter, i explained this had been tried in 1998, it failed. i know stop and searches a very emotive subject, but i predicted this would happen. there is no deterrent for these young people because they know they are very rarely going to be stopped, the police now seem to use section 60 which is after the event which is not proactive, it is reactive. i just appeal for people to oppose stop and search tactics to actually look around what is happening and evenif look around what is happening and even if it was stepped up short—term, this is more than stop and search, there has to be more long—term. cuts to services have been a disgrace for all of the young people. i think a lot of young people, like previous callers said, then would never have thought of carrying knives. it was for their

own protection. it is predictable. i am so incensed and sad. my condolences and heart goes out to all of that young people over the last few years, all people, that have... i appeal to people who oppose stop and search. all of the communities, every community. to stop and think about it. we cannot go on like this. this is ridiculous and sad, so sad. it go on like this. this is ridiculous and sad, so sad.— and sad, so sad. it is a complex issue because _ and sad, so sad. it is a complex issue because those _ and sad, so sad. it is a complex issue because those who - and sad, so sad. it is a complex issue because those who are i issue because those who are concerned about stop and search, of whom there are many, they will say it inflames tensions in communities. i agree, nicky. it inflames tensions in communities. iagree, nicky. i it inflames tensions in communities. i agree, nicky. i was a police officer, i was 18 years in london, and anotherforce, but officer, i was 18 years in london, and another force, but at the moment, no one has come up with anything better. it is notjust

about stop and search. neighbourhood policing has been destroyed, by the cuts, where officers and pco is in the local community got to know youngsters before they got involved in this culture. that has been destroyed. theresa may has a lot to answer for. destroyed. theresa may has a lot to answerfor. but destroyed. theresa may has a lot to answer for. but we are where we are at the moment. ijust answer for. but we are where we are at the moment. i just think people... i understand totally what you are saying, but if searches are carried out with respect... i work in east london, hackney, for 12 of my 30 years, stop and search, i never got a complaint because i was respectful, took time. i know people will come on who have had a bad experience. but we cannot go on like this where there is no deterrent for young people to walk around with knives. they ruin their life. they

ruin their life as well. as well as the family's life and the victims. my the family's life and the victims. my condolences and heart goes out to all of the people caught up in this. this isjust the people killed. there are people also badly injured. and, patrick, of course family devastated forever. let me pick up and run with that, deterrent. you lostjermaine, i am so sorry about what happened to your 15—year—old brother. maybe you can tell us about that in a moment. what deterrent... what will deter people? what will stop young people carrying these weapons and doing this? at, 11th stop young people carrying these weapons and doing this?- weapons and doing this? a lot of --eole weapons and doing this? a lot of people have _ weapons and doing this? a lot of people have highlighted - weapons and doing this? a lot of people have highlighted on i weapons and doing this? a lot of people have highlighted on the l weapons and doing this? a lot of i people have highlighted on the show so far— people have highlighted on the show so far there people have highlighted on the show so farthere are people have highlighted on the show so far there are a lot of cuts to youth — so far there are a lot of cuts to youth clubs and certain resources young _ youth clubs and certain resources young people need in order to keep them _ young people need in order to keep them occupied. without that, a lot of young _ them occupied. without that, a lot of young people find other avenues

of young people find other avenues of hanging out with one another and most _ of hanging out with one another and most times, unfortunately, there are older— most times, unfortunately, there are older people, people in circles on the community that will unfortunately take them down the wrong _ unfortunately take them down the wrong route. very easy to get caught up wrong route. very easy to get caught up in _ wrong route. very easy to get caught up in that— wrong route. very easy to get caught up in that lifestyle unfortunately. unless _ up in that lifestyle unfortunately. unless we have more funding, more resources, _ unless we have more funding, more resources, in— unless we have more funding, more resources, in local communities, nothing — resources, in local communities, nothing will _ resources, in local communities, nothing will change.— nothing will change. what about patrick's point _ nothing will change. what about patrick's point about _ nothing will change. what about patrick's point about stop - nothing will change. what about patrick's point about stop and i patrick's point about stop and search? the home secretary suella braveman presented figures recently when she was talking, new data, she said, shows more than 100,000 weapons have been removed from the street since 2019 from a range of tactics, almost half from stop and search, leading to 220,000 arrests, latest data shows serious violence has been driven down by... stop and search significantly successful, she says. should it be ramped up? yes.

search significantly successful, she says. should it be ramped up? yes, i am on. says. should it be ramped up? yes, i am on- and — says. should it be ramped up? yes, i am on. and such, _ says. should it be ramped up? yes, i am on. and such, i— says. should it be ramped up? yes, i am on. and such, i think— says. should it be ramped up? yes, i am on. and such, i think it— says. should it be ramped up? yes, i am on. and such, i think it is- am on. and such, i think it is needed, only way we will protect our young people —— because stop and search. young people carrying weapons down their trouser legs, behind their backs, not small weapons, they are like swords. the only way we are going to be able to protect our young people going to school, just walking out on a weekend, there are a lot of young people walking around with knives down their trouser legs and behind their backs. without police stopping and searching young people... it can be anyone's child targeted, wrong place, wrong time, small encounter, you know, it could be anything, once the knife is out, the young person will use the knife because there is a lot of peer pressure to use it. why are they desensitised to the fact that if they use it they will kill, they will maim, kill somebody,

take a life, why does not matter to them? �* .., , take a life, why does not matter to them? �* , ., ., , take a life, why does not matter to them? �* , ., ., _.,. them? because unfortunately social media does glorify _ them? because unfortunately social media does glorify a _ them? because unfortunately social media does glorify a lot _ them? because unfortunately social media does glorify a lot of- them? because unfortunately social media does glorify a lot of the i media does glorify a lot of the stuff that we don't agree with. you have got platforms which i will not name but contributed to my brother's death. he was not involved in that. social media has a big part to play and that is why our young people are so desensitised by murders and killings. that is the reason why we do what we do at the foundation, we are to bring back that level of empathy and it starts from primary school. ,., , empathy and it starts from primary school. , , ., ., , school. empathy, yeah, that is the word. tell school. empathy, yeah, that is the word- tell me _ school. empathy, yeah, that is the word. tell me about _ school. empathy, yeah, that is the word. tell me about jermaine i school. empathy, yeah, that is the word. tell me about jermaine and | word. tell me aboutjermaine and also, if he would, what happened. mt; also, if he would, what happened. ij�*i brother also, if he would, what happened. ii: brother when also, if he would, what happened. ii brother when he also, if he would, what happened. ii1 brother when he was murdered at 15 years old, jermaine. he was out, summer holidays, regular day, on his way home, around nine, 930. he stopped at a shop. a car came around from another area, still croydon,

another area in croydon, they had knives and weapons in the car, they were looking to target anyone they believed could be in a gang, from the local area, any type of association with another gang, and unfortunatelyjermaine was on his way home and another senseless reason to tell a young person and he was targeted at that point when they saw him. he was the one that got stabbed unfortunately. he was stabbed unfortunately. he was stabbed in his leg, different areas, in his leg was the one that killed him. he did not make it to hospital. please do get in touch with us on this, 85058 untaxed, 08085 909693, keep your comments coming in, they are vital. —— on text. i'm so sorry about what happened, that they must have been the worst day ever. worst da of m have been the worst day ever. worst day of my life _ have been the worst day ever. worst day of my life and — have been the worst day ever. worst day of my life and still _ have been the worst day ever. worst day of my life and still to _ have been the worst day ever. worst day of my life and still to this - have been the worst day ever. i'irr�*st day of my life and still to this day six years in i am still comprehending howl

six years in i am still comprehending how i processed it and manage that, my family managed it. i was the first family member on the scene, i was by myself. a lot of people from the community my family knew, jermaine new. when i was given the news and i sat down in the car at the time to say he has been pronounced dead at the scene, it broke me. i almost was in a bubble, i did not know where i was at. having to call my family members to tell them what happened... yeah, no words that can describe that type of pain and i prayed that no other young person has to go through that and a family has to go through that again and the murder that happened yesterday in croydon absolutely devastating and very triggering. i can only imagine... it devastating and very triggering. i can only imagine. . ._ can only imagine... it must have been. can only imagine... it must have been- but _ can only imagine... it must have been- but it _ can only imagine... it must have been. but it will— can only imagine... it must have been. but it will happen - can only imagine... it must have been. but it will happen again. l can only imagine... it must have l been. but it will happen again. we know it will. been. but it will happen again. we know it will-— been. but it will happen again. we know it will. . ., ., , ., know it will. yeah. i would hope not and i hope — know it will. yeah. i would hope not and i hope that _

know it will. yeah. i would hope not and i hope that you _ know it will. yeah. i would hope not and i hope that you guys _ know it will. yeah. i would hope not and i hope that you guys and - know it will. yeah. i would hope not and i hope that you guys and the . and i hope that you guys and the sizing and having this conversation is so key and the more we have these conversations, the more we can get our voices heard —— and empathising. it should notjust be the families going through that voice is that, should be everyone because it is everyone�*s responsibility because it could be anyone�*s child next. everyone's responsibility because it could be anyone's child next. people often sa , could be anyone's child next. people often say. we _ could be anyone's child next. people often say, we need _ could be anyone's child next. people often say, we need a _ could be anyone's child next. people often say, we need a national - often say, we need a national debate, national conversation. we really do and we are going through to 11 on this. thank you so much. listen to nicola and kieran. but one, nikla, what would you like to say? —— good morning, nicola. my say? -- good morning, nicola. my son, he say? —— good morning, nicola. my son, he has been attacked so many times _ son, he has been attacked so many times he _ son, he has been attacked so many times. he was wearing a stab proof vest to _ times. he was wearing a stab proof vest to leave the house. he was

being _ vest to leave the house. he was being targeted by police saying to him, being targeted by police saying to him. you — being targeted by police saying to him, you have to be in a gang. he was saying. — him, you have to be in a gang. he was saying, no, iam him, you have to be in a gang. he was saying, no, i am terrified to leave _ was saying, no, i am terrified to leave the — was saying, no, i am terrified to leave the house in case i get stuffed~ _ leave the house in case i get stuffed~ -- _ leave the house in case i get stuffed. —— get stabbed. he then got robbed _ stuffed. —— get stabbed. he then got robbed of— stuffed. —— get stabbed. he then got robbed of his stab proof vest. now he will_ robbed of his stab proof vest. now he will not — robbed of his stab proof vest. now he will not leave the house at all. he will_ he will not leave the house at all. he will not — he will not leave the house at all. he will not even go to the shop. he is inside _ he will not even go to the shop. he is inside the — he will not even go to the shop. he is inside the house seven days a week, _ is inside the house seven days a week, 24— is inside the house seven days a week, 24 hours a day, climbing the walls. _ week, 24 hours a day, climbing the walls. but — week, 24 hours a day, climbing the walls, but the fear now, he got dragged — walls, but the fear now, he got dragged into a house at knife—point in harlow— dragged into a house at knife—point in harlow town centre in front of hundreds— in harlow town centre in front of hundreds of shoppers who did absolutely nothing. they let them dra- absolutely nothing. they let them drag him — absolutely nothing. they let them drag him off his bike through a foot tunnel— drag him off his bike through a foot tunnel into— drag him off his bike through a foot tunnel into a house. a few weeks later, _ tunnel into a house. a few weeks later, they— tunnel into a house. a few weeks later, they stabbed somebody to death— later, they stabbed somebody to death in— later, they stabbed somebody to death in the house. when we went to the police _ death in the house. when we went to the police on the day it happened, he was _ the police on the day it happened, he was out — the police on the day it happened, he was out of the police station before — he was out of the police station

before we — he was out of the police station before we had even finished, even though— before we had even finished, even though he — before we had even finished, even though he was... the knife they put to my— though he was... the knife they put to my son's— though he was... the knife they put to my son's throat on him. the police — to my son's throat on him. the police said _ to my son's throat on him. the police said they had nothing. a few weeks _ police said they had nothing. a few weeks later when they stabbed the other— weeks later when they stabbed the other man to death, the police were all over— other man to death, the police were all over it. _ other man to death, the police were allover it. i— other man to death, the police were all over it, i was in hospital than and they— all over it, i was in hospital than and they were ringing me and ringing me and— and they were ringing me and ringing me and ringing me. a bit late now. if me and ringing me. a bit late now. if they— me and ringing me. a bit late now. if they had — me and ringing me. a bit late now. if they had done something about thism _ if they had done something about thism my— if they had done something about this... my son obviously was not the first victim — this... my son obviously was not the first victim. maybe that man would not have _ first victim. maybe that man would not have died a few weeks after. all that happens is that gang goes to prison— that happens is that gang goes to prison and another gang are in their place _ prison and another gang are in their place so. _ prison and another gang are in their place. so, because if you live

especially... teenagers are no more than they— especially... teenagers are no more than they are — especially... teenagers are no more than they are letting on. teenagers —— teenagers, they know more than they're _ —— teenagers, they know more than they're letting on, they don't talk to their— they're letting on, they don't talk to their parents, they are carrying knives. _ to their parents, they are carrying knives, their parents know nothing about— knives, their parents know nothing about it _ knives, their parents know nothing about it because this culture of carrying — about it because this culture of carrying knives... there are kids carrying — carrying knives... there are kids carrying them because they are terrified — carrying them because they are terrified of other kids. then you have _ terrified of other kids. then you have got— terrified of other kids. then you have got the older ones that are controlling the kids that are putting _ controlling the kids that are putting the fear into them even more — putting the fear into them even more. and they're only has to be a little _ more. and they're only has to be a little rumour— more. and they're only has to be a little rumour going around between all of the _ little rumour going around between all of the teenagers, you know, that one has— all of the teenagers, you know, that one has done something, and then they will— one has done something, and then they will be threatened. there are 12—year—olds round here carrying knives _

12—year—olds round here carrying knives. they cannot work because the knife is _ knives. they cannot work because the knife is digging in the leg. adults do not _ knife is digging in the leg. adults do not know what is going on —— they cannot— do not know what is going on —— they cannot walk — do not know what is going on —— they cannot walk. the teenagers are keeping — cannot walk. the teenagers are keeping it— cannot walk. the teenagers are keeping it to themselves. and the culture, _ keeping it to themselves. and the culture, taking, you know, my son, he took— culture, taking, you know, my son, he took a _ culture, taking, you know, my son, he took a knife to soon —— they took a knife _ he took a knife to soon —— they took a knife to— he took a knife to soon —— they took a knife to school when he was 12, threatened — a knife to school when he was 12, threatened him. he was at a boarding school— threatened him. he was at a boarding school for— threatened him. he was at a boarding school for kids with special needs. the reason — school for kids with special needs. the reason i pulled him out at 13 was because the other kids at school had robbed _ was because the other kids at school had robbed him at knife—point in a part of— had robbed him at knife—point in a part of his — had robbed him at knife—point in a part of his bike and everything else~ — part of his bike and everything else~ the _ part of his bike and everything else... the boy even took the knife to school— else... the boy even took the knife to school and the school still wouldn't _ to school and the school still wouldn't have it.— to school and the school still wouldn't have it. nicola that point there, 12-year-olds _ wouldn't have it. nicola that point there, 12-year-olds carrying - wouldn't have it. nicola that point i there, 12-year-olds carrying knives, there, 12—year—olds carrying knives, patrick green, good to have you on, chief executive of that then can

sell a trust, 12—year—olds carrying knives —— pcos. figs sell a trust, 12-year-olds carrying knives -- pcos._ sell a trust, 12-year-olds carrying knives -- pcos. as soon as they hit secondary — knives -- pcos. as soon as they hit secondary school, _ knives -- pcos. as soon as they hit secondary school, it _ knives -- pcos. as soon as they hit secondary school, it changes - secondary school, it changes overnight —— ben kinsella trust. innocent— overnight —— ben kinsella trust. innocent kids, as soon as they start secondary— innocent kids, as soon as they start secondary school, whatever secondary school ~~ _ secondary school, whatever secondary school... �* , ., . , school... because of the influences around them- _ school... because of the influences around them. let _ school... because of the influences around them. let us _ school... because of the influences around them. let us get _ school... because of the influences around them. let us get patrick - around them. let us get patrick green's response to that. i agree with everything _ green's response to that. i agree with everything the _ green's response to that. i agree with everything the caller - green's response to that. i agree with everything the caller has - green's response to that. i agree| with everything the caller hasjust with everything the caller has just said. statistics pack it up. knife carrying is relatively rare below the age of 13, 14, but what we see in terms of the statistics it rapidly increases in 14, 15 and 16 years onwards. that is why work in schools, their work pcos do, getting in early and helping young people —— their work ben kinsella trust do. for young people it is about staying

safe. ,, ., for young people it is about staying safe, ,, ., , for young people it is about staying safe-_ yeah. - for young people it is about staying safe._ yeah, exactly. safe. staying safe... yeah, exactly. as we know. _ safe. staying safe... yeah, exactly. as we know, the _ safe. staying safe... yeah, exactly. as we know, the worst _ safe. staying safe... yeah, exactly. as we know, the worst thing - safe. staying safe... yeah, exactly. as we know, the worst thing you i safe. staying safe... yeah, exactly. | as we know, the worst thing you can do, it increases the risks for yourself and everybody around you. the work we have done, working with 6000 young people, young people who do not feel safe where they live, go to school, where they play, three times more likely to think a knife or protect them than young people who do feel safe. each piece of work here about helping young people, reassure them, helping young people feel safe, putting in practical measures to improve safety. if you do that, you reduce the need or desire for young people to carry a knife. another quick point, we have seen a massive growth in the last ten years fuelled by social media. mentioned earlier on by another caller. it normalises carrying knives, desensitises young people to violence and even glamorises

violence. social media has been a game changer over the last 12 years and the net about the knife protecting he was getting stronger rather than weaker. —— the mess about the knife protecting you. its, about the knife protecting you. a game changer? reaching - about the knife protecting you. a game changer? reaching youngl about the knife protecting you. a - game changer? reaching young people in a way never — game changer? reaching young people in a way never done _ game changer? reaching young people in a way never done before. _ game changer? reaching young people in a way never done before. we - game changer? reaching young people in a way never done before. we are - in a way never done before. we are about to run a workshop and i can guarantee you when we ask then those questions comparing them to the group we were talking to ten years ago, more of those young people now think a knife will protect them. how do we disabuse _ think a knife will protect them. how do we disabuse them of that notion? how do we get the message through that a knife will not protect them? it is about going into schools, like what _ it is about going into schools, like what patrick was saying, about targeting the places where young people _ targeting the places where young people set and where they are most of the _ people set and where they are most of the time. a lot of kids that carry— of the time. a lot of kids that carry knives also are not in schools. _ carry knives also are not in schools, they are in pupil referral units _ schools, they are in pupil referral units as— schools, they are in pupil referral units as well. we need access, we

need _ units as well. we need access, we need to— units as well. we need access, we need to he — units as well. we need access, we need to be allowed access in order to help _ need to be allowed access in order to help young people change their mindset — to help young people change their mindset. another point patrick highlighted, yes, we have 30 statistics telling us young people from the — statistics telling us young people from the ages of 13 upwards carry knives. _ from the ages of 13 upwards carry knives. trut— from the ages of 13 upwards carry knives, but going into primary schools— knives, but going into primary schools and disclosures —— —— we have _ schools and disclosures —— —— we have the — schools and disclosures —— —— we have the statistics. i have spoken to young — have the statistics. i have spoken to young kids saying, i have to carry— to young kids saying, i have to carry a — to young kids saying, i have to carry a knife because my sibling would _ carry a knife because my sibling would have got in trouble if they had got — would have got in trouble if they had got stopped and searched. a lot of pressure — had got stopped and searched. a lot of pressure sits on the shoulders heing _ of pressure sits on the shoulders being responsible for older siblings and peer— being responsible for older siblings and peer pressure around them. i have _ and peer pressure around them. i have had — and peer pressure around them. i have had a — and peer pressure around them. i have had a young... i believe they were _ have had a young... i believe they were ten, — have had a young... i believe they were ten, i— have had a young... i believe they were ten, i have had a ten—year—old tell me _ were ten, i have had a ten—year—old tell me they— were ten, i have had a ten—year—old tell me they have a in the back. —— they— tell me they have a in the back. —— they have — tell me they have a in the back. —— they have a — tell me they have a in the back. —— they have a knife in their bag. that is where _ they have a knife in their bag. that is where we — they have a knife in their bag. that is where we are in society.- is where we are in society. utterly shockin: , is where we are in society. utterly shocking. a _ is where we are in society. utterly shocking, a ten-year-old - is where we are in society. utterly shocking, a ten-year-old with - is where we are in society. utterly shocking, a ten-year-old with a l shocking, a ten—year—old with a knife in their bag. can i say to

viewers on bbc news and bbc news and bbc two, thank you for watching. now the national and international news. we will be carrying on this very important conversation on 5 live, we have two. looking for thoughts as ever on solutions. how do we deal with this? how do we tackle it? we had to pick up the sword and fiht. , i. live from london, this is bbc news. the us says it will work

on an international monitoring team for nagorno—karabakh after azerbaijan took control of the territory during an offensive last week. a bbc investigation finds that uk police officers have been misusing their body worn cameras but the national police chiefs' council maintains the majority of footage highlights good policing. police are investigating a murder as tributes are paid to the 15—year—old girl killed on her way to school in south london. a study suggests a significant number of the uk's wildlife species are at risk of dying out but the government insist it is committed to encouraging nature to thrive. hello and welcome, i'm frankie mccamley. we start with the crisis unfolding in a region disputed by both armenia and azerbaijan.