welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. my guest is pakistan's caretaker prime minister, anwaar—ul—haq kakar, who's on a visit here in london. in august, he was put in charge of the pakistani government until elections are held in the new year. this comes at a time of extreme political turmoil, huge economic challenges and growing insecurity. does he have what it takes to steer the country through its current difficulties? and can he stand up to the power of the military? anwaar—ul—haq kakar, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. thank you for having me.

so, do you have what it takes to steer pakistan through these really tough times? well, definitely. we are committed to steer pakistan out of these challenging and difficult times. and for that, the laws of the country are there to guide us, help us and enable us to do the right thing. and that's what we're going to do. doing the right thing really means a priority for you is to ensure that the elections in january for the national assembly are free and fair. how confident are you that they will be? i'm pretty much confident that they're going to be free and fair. whatever the objective tests are by any international observer or international media or domestic media or domestic observers, those indicators which does determine any sort of

transparent and independent elections in that region, i'm pretty much confident that we're going to acquire and achieve that. but, look, i have to put it to you that you've got the very popular opposition politician of the pti — the pakistan tehreek—e—insaf party, imran khan — in prison on corruption charges that he denies. you've also got the expected return in october of another very popular politician, nawaz sharif, three times premier in the past. and now, there is the possibility also that corruption charges might be brought against his younger brother, shahbaz sharif — who, until you became caretaker prime minister, was prime minister of pakistan. that means that you have these three principal politicians who may be barred — or, in imran khan's case, is definitely barred — from running for election.

well, if any of these individuals, they are barred from the elections, that would not be out of the executive decision of the caretaker government. that can be a possible judicial outcome for any of these individuals, of which i am not privy to whether we are heading towards that direction or not. but we know imran khan has been given a five—year ban from holding public office. crosstalk. we know that nawaz sharif in 2017, when he was found guilty of corruption charges — that he denies — was given a lifetime ban from running for office. so, we know that these two very popular politicians are not going to be able to stand in these elections. i agree. it's a problem. i agree. if it is a problem, we need to do legislation in the parliament if someone does not agree that there should be such judicial outcomes. i, as a caretaker government, cannot undo such judicial

outcomes, although i might agree with those positions or disagree with those positions. what i am referring to over here is that if such a situation occurs — because even in the fate of mr imran khan is not even final, there are judicial remedies available to him. the appellate courts are there. so, if once it's realised and all the options are utilised judicially, then yes... so, he could... imran khan... there is a possibility that he may be legally barred from that process, which is beyond the control of the caretaker government. well, you say that, but let me tell you what fatima haddad from imran khan's pti party says. she says, "no level playing field exists for the pti. "the caretaker government —" that's you — "is talking "about accountability and other long—term plans instead "of making arrangements

for fair polls". she said, "making arrangements for fair polls is something "that you should be held accountable for, "you are responsible for". well, that's exactly what we are doing. pakistan tehreek—e—insaf as a political party is not barred to participate. no, but imran khan, as things stand, the leader of the pti party cannot stand. if an individual is charged with riots, vandalism, putting arson to different buildings and instigating people for violence and if there are laws of the land to counter and curtail that behaviour lawfully through courts, how on earth — i am surprised that i'm being set responsible that we have encouraged such an outcome to oust him from the process. are you saying he's done that? are you saying that imran khan has done that?

i'm not suggesting that he has done it. that has to be decided by the courts, and that's what courts are doing. what we should allow here, the courts to do theirjob. either me or anyone else commenting or premature comments on the eventuality of what happens to mr imran khan, i think would be pre—emptive. all right, let me just ask you about nawaz sharif because as i said, he was disqualified in 2017 from holding office for life for corruption, given a seven—year jail sentence that was suspended on medical grounds. could he be arrested if and when he returns to pakistan in october? well, that's, again, a question to be deliberated by the law enforcement agencies. that is the local police authorities, that is what sort ofjudicial remedies he has at his hand, whether he gets a protective bail or not, so these are all speculative situations. but he could be arrested as soon as he lands? i don't know. he could be set free.

either way. so, this is not something about which i am certain what's going to happen. but it means, mr kakar, that you are presiding over very turbulent times in pakistan. we've seen the protests on the streets when imran khan was arrested on these corruption charges — that he denies and says are trumped up. they sparked nationwide protests. we saw 1,400 arrests. there were deaths, also. this means that there's a great deal of instability in the country. nawaz sharif, again, very popular. suppose he is arrested when he arrives, as you've said is a possibility. that could also spark outrage. are you not really worried? well, i think we are learning in pakistan that political process has a part and

an aspect to agitation, and agitations are usually translated in a manner which should be acceptable to the democratic norms. and if they defy those norms, the laws are there to curb and control and limit that kind of behaviour. but i asked you if you are worried, as caretaker prime minister of pakistan, that political violence could be ignited in the country for the reasons i've outlined. i do not foresee such a behaviour. rather, i see now the people are rallying people in the support for the political and electoral process. they would be more interested to participate in the forthcoming elections and get their returned candidatures to the parliament, rather than going on the agitative politics. all right. so, imran khan, before

he was arrested in august, told this programme, hardtalk, that he has accused the military of orchestrating his downfall — and that's something, of course, the military denies. but he says that the goal of the military is to eventually crush his party. well, that has to be clarified, defended and responded by the pti. i do not see... that's his party. ..an element of truth in all these accusations. because we have observed they have worked hand in glove with the same military which he accuses. but he fell out with them. and, well, that's how the issue of credibility comes, that whether — what do i believe, the military which worked hand in glove with his governance model in which he used to famously claim and take credit for that hybrid arrangement.

and then, when he lost the parliamentary support and he tried to manage that support in the parliament, which probably they couldn't and he couldn't. right. but the point he's making... and then shifting the onus to the military, it's for your audience to judge whether it's a fair and credible sort of accusation or not. but you would — it sounds like you are defending the military and, as you know, there are many in pakistan who basically say you are there as a choice of the military. you studied at the national defence university, you have close ties with the military. i'll give you a flavour of what people are saying. political analyst khalid mahmood rasool says you are undoubtedly a choice of the establishment — that's meaning the army. another person, huma baqai, a karachi—based political commentator, "it is likely that kakar was 200% the choice "of the establishment".

it means you're the military�*s man and while you're minding the government in pakistan, you will basically do their bidding. let me respond to this in a way that, first of all, pakistan's military and its role in politics — always the so—called civil military relationship — is discussed at length in different levels. i have a view that, what are the reasons for this imbalance in the civil—military relationship? and due to that analysis, due to that position, which i have always taken publicly, people do view me as someone who is quite close to the military establishment. what happens... are you? ..as a result of that label, that you lose the merit of that argument in which we analyse what is wrong with our governance structure.

and in my opinion, the issue is that the civil institutions, when they are assigned to deliver on the account of the governance, they fail, and they have deteriorated their capacity in the last four or five decades and by design or default, on the other hand, the military as an organisation has gained strength. so, whenever a challenge occurs on the account of the governance, the government has to rely on that military. so, you're basically saying that the military is very strong in pakistan but with justifiable reasons because you say the civilians are not up to it, basically. well... that sounds like what you're saying. well, pragmatically, of course, yes. that's what exactly i'm saying. so you are the military man, then, in pakistan. iam not... you are their choice. i am not being apologetic. i am not being trying to create the impression otherwise. i'm just trying to illustrate

the reasons that why do people think that way. my reason is if you go for this assessment and analysis, and if people get into this label theory that he is civilians' man or he's the military�*s man... yeah, but you've just said it, you've just agreed with that analysis. i mean, i tell you what — you know, this is a view, aqil shah, a researcher in pakistani politics, says something which a lot of people subscribe to — "regardless of who holds the reins of government "in islamabad, the capital, the military has always been "and continues to be the de facto arbiter of politics "in the country". that's true. so, that means the army is in charge of the government and not you, as the caretaker prime minister. well, this is a perception which is consistently being repeated by many analysts in pakistan. this was the perception of mr khan when he was in the government — that he's the military�*s man. this was the perception about mr zardari when he returned to the power in 2008.

that's asif ali zardari of the pakistan people's party you're referring to. and this was the perception about three—time prime minister nawaz sharif. so, this is all consistent... but it's true, though! ..and nothing new. yeah, but it's — yeah, as the saying goes, most countries have armies but in pakistan, the army has a state. well, that is — i would strongly dispute this statement. this is not the case, particularly in pakistan's context. yes, what we have over there is that there is a vacuum in the governance structure and that vacuum is at times... filled by the military. ..filled by the military. so, they do have a sphere of influence. 0k. is this getting worse, though, in pakistan? because there are two draconian laws which have been tabled in the national assembly in september, proposed amendments to the centuries—old 0fficial secrets act, which would give the security intelligence services greater powers over suspected breaches of official secrets. and it's seen as unacceptable,

these proposed amendments. what's your view on those? is it something you would welcome, which would strengthen the army and the intelligence services? i think so. in the context in the region, where we have got kind of security challenges. don't forget that we are a country who has lost almost 90,000 individuals. it's tragic. it's not draconian. these were required even at the beginning when we joined the so—called war on terror, which we didn't do. and now, when we have lost almost 90,000 individuals, and nato, isaf, us, they have all left the region and we have to take the remaining mess on our own, so we do need some legislative backing to do the job. 0k. will that legislative backing, though, really help you get greater security in pakistan? i'll tell you what one senator has said, cos,

as you know, this has triggered a lot of heated debate in your parliament. senator mushtaq ahmed of the jamaat—e—islami has warned that these amendments will have an impact on human rights, individual rights and press freedoms across the country. they are seen as draconian laws which are being drawn up in haste. he has a point, as many others do. well, there were very few at the floor of the parliament who did raise... senator mushtaq being probably a minority in that. these laws have been passed and deliberated by the majority of the parliamentarians in pakistan. these laws have not been passed by the ghq or it has not been passed through an executive order. the parliament of pakistan has deliberated on that, both the houses — the national assembly and the senate — and after those deliberations, they have concluded it, and now they are the law of the land. and i, as a caretaker

government, i abide by them and support them. so you don't think they'll result in an erosion of civic rights? cos a lot of people have said that this is part of a trend which we have observed in pakistan over the last few yea rs. it's a challenge when it comes to the security and the civil liberties, how do you strike a balance between the two? if the right to life is challenged, how do you respond to that? do you prefer civil liberty or do you give a preference to the right to life? you're referring to the security situation in pakistan. and of course, you are in a tough neighbourhood, you have a 2,600—kilometre border with afghanistan, and we have seen an increase in attacks of 79% by militants across that border, which is a staggering increase. and most of those are in baluchistan, south—west pakistan, which is, of course, where you were born, one of the worst affected areas. pakistan... the pakistani taliban and also islamic state have a presence there.

so, what can you do to stop the killings and the attacks that are going on? one aspect is, of course, kinetics, which is the application of the force when you do see such challenges. and pakistan's military and paramilitary are doing a fantasticjob to counter these attacks. we are focusing and planning to have more effective counterinsurgencies operations. but at the same time, we are facing a challenge of these renowned...these renewed attacks due to some added gadgetry which has been left by uk, and us, and the nato forces. not as a conspiracy theory, but which was given actually to help our national army. you have made the argument, but you know that the us defence department estimated in a report last year

that the us military removed or destroyed nearly all major equipment used by us troops in afghanistan throughout the drawdown period from the country in 2021, and other equipment was disabled so it could not be used. is that report wrong? is the us department wrong? as far as i remember, there was an afghan national army of almost 300,000 people, and they probably were equipped not with toys. they were equipped with arms, night—vision goggles, so on and so forth. and within 48 hours, we saw the disappearance of those 300,000 individuals. where did those small arms go? did this report suggest, insinuate something about that? well... no. let me tell you what the taliban chief spokesperson in afghanistan says. no, what i'm trying to... yeah.

and then we see all these small arms in the black market. all right. so you've got the taliban government in afghanistan. their chief spokesman, zabihullah mujahid, says pakistani officials are once again blaming afghans instead of strengthening the security of their country. and he says that the afghan taliban are opposed to any attack on pakistan. so, again, you are... you should be strengthening the security of your country rather than trying to find reasons from outside. we are not trying to find the reasons outside. we are just trying to focus on the facts where the external factors for any insurgency, if it is exhibited, it needs to be exposed. but these are not external. i mean, brigadier saad muhammad, a former defence attache for pakistan to afghanistan, says 90% of the attacks are linked to the ttp — that's the pakistan taliban. yes. yeah, exactly. the ttp's residual place is on afghan soil. this is what we are referring.

but it's the pakistani taliban, so you should be dealing with it. of course. we are dealing with it. we are dealing with them on our own soil. and the asylum and the refuge which they have taken on afghan soil is part of the problem. all right. another big issue that you have to deal with is the economic challenge in pakistan. you've got inflation at about 35%, very sluggish growth, low gdp atjust about 0.3%, low per capita income, the industrial sector is contracting, millions unemployed. i could go on and on. what can you do about this? well, first of all, we have to prioritise. and as you have said it yourself, there are so many wrongs with our economy that all of it cannot be addressed within this small stint of, let's say, two months or three months. we are trying to take some administrative measures where we have had a crackdown on illegal currency trade, which has stabilised the rupee against the dollar. we are doing strong crackdowns

on hoardings which will bring and which has brought a lot of inflation under control. you've got to take fairly draconian economic measures in a country which the people are saying, we can't take any more. you saw how the surge in electricity costs triggered nationwide protests in september, and part of your imf bailout meant you had to remove the energy subsidies. people can't take the pain. well, that's true. it's extremely painful for the people. but what we have done over here is that we have prioritised that we will go for the privatisation of state—owned entities, these all subsidised groups where we are doing the transmission of the energy. we want to get rid of that business. probably pakistan airline, steel mills, these are all

on the cards. we are doing, trying to do privatisation swiftly, as much as we can. all right. finally, when you were appointed caretaker prime minister in august at such a tumultuous time in pakistan's recent history, one senator, ali zafar, tweeted, "kakar believes in the politics of cooperation, "not confrontation". how confident are you that you can soothe the tensions in pakistan? well, to be honest with you, i don't want to be that ambitious. i'm not a larger than life figure. what i feel is that out of conviction, i should contribute as being a saner voice in our politics and try to contribute as a citizen for a discourse which is in the best interest of the 240 million people. less toxic, more logic, more on merit.

that is what is required, that is what is needed, and that's where the destiny of pakistan should lie. anwaar—ul—haq kakar, caretaker prime minister of pakistan, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. after all the cloud around on thursday and the heavy overnight rain, friday looks to be dry and brighter for many of us, thanks to a ridge of high pressure some good sunny spells around to start the day but there will be some showers developing mainly in the north and west of the uk and these will be most frequent across the north and west

of scotland, close to this area of low pressure. a squeeze on the isobars here so another windy day to come across scotland with gales here and later went further south. there could be a weather front clearing the far south—east through the morning. it will do so and then there is plenty of sunshine around. winds more of a feature further north and here is where we will see most of the showers with some of them heavy and thundery and blustery and gales up to 55 miles an hour. in the south, showers peppering western coastal areas otherwise it is mainly dry. 20 degrees in the south—east, not quite as warm and humid as it has been. a fresher feel to things. as we head through friday night with the slightly cooler air mass, clear skies and winds turning lighter for a while we will see mist and fog develop and it will also be a chilly night to come. single figure values across the board, as low as three orfour degrees across rural aberdeenshire. as we head into the weekend we have high pressure bringing fine and settled weather to start with and this next frontal system will sweep into central western and northern areas through the day. so we start chilly and dry

with sunshine, early mist and fog clearing, and then the sunshine will become hazy as the frontal system moves in. but most of the rain will be across northern ireland and wales, northern england pushing into southern scotland. the far north of scotland, southern south—east england should stay dry with sunshine albeit hazy at times. 20 degrees and mid—teens where we have wind and rain. into sunday it looks like that front clears its way into the north sea and we will have a hang back with the weather front across england and wales. sunday probably a bit cloudier for england and wales with splashes of rain through the morning. brightening up in the afternoon and brighter sunshine, a couple of showers in the north and west of scotland here the mid— high teens but warmer and muggier across south, up to 23 degrees. it is mixed into the new week and it will start off unsettled with settling down around the middle part of the week and we will start to see showers across northern areas

by the end of the week and it stays fine and settled in the south.

live from london, this is bbc news. police in the netherlands have arrested a man after two shootings in rotterdam.

at least three people died in the attacks. the 15—year—old girl stabbed to death on her way to school in south london yesterday has been named as elianne andam. police are questioning a 17—year—old boy. and the summer blockbuster, barbie, has made its way to russia, where moviegoers are flocking to unofficial screenings. hello, i'm mark lobel. police in the netherlands have arrested a man after two shootings in rotterdam. at least three people died in the attacks at a house and a medical centre. dutch police said the gunman was known to them. he was convicted of animal cruelty two years ago. anna holligan is in rotterdam and has sent this update. the suspect has been named tonight by the justice department as fouad l, a student.