you're watching bbc news. the latest news and headlines are at the top of the hour, after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. the scale and brutality of hamas�*s assault on israel has stirred the country to its core. more than 1,200 israeli men, women and children were killed. around 150 are now hostages. there is anguish and grief and there is fury — a determination that this time hamas, which has ruled gaza for 16 years, must be destroyed. already, neighbourhoods in gaza have

been reduced to rubble. more than 1,000 palestinians, including many children, have been killed. my guest is former israeli prime minister ehud barak. unimaginable horror has been unleashed. where will it end? ehud barak, in tel aviv, welcome to hardtalk. you have fought in many of israel's wars. you've led the country as prime minister. have you ever experienced a mood in the country as you see it and feel it right now?

this is the most severe blow that israel suffered since its establishment some 75 years ago. and the death toll of a devastating 1,200 within the first 2a, 30 hours, it's something that never happened in our history. and in this case, it's not a war. these are notjust soldiers. there are many citizens, many civilians, women, young babies, elderly people, even some holocaust survivors. and we still have 150, so to speak, in their hands. so it's very tough. great, huge failure of our early warning system, of our operational system. but we, the israelis, we are a defiant kind of species. we know how to unite under pressure.

and i'm confident that we will win this battle once again. and we are fighting now, we have a war on the hamas, we intend to paralyse it. any kind of military or operational capability. this is notjust a fight against israel. it's a barbarian, murderous terror of the like of daesh, as we called it, the middle east isis. in the course of that answer, you referred to what is evident — a massive intelligence and security failure in israel. is it incumbent on israel to address that failure now? there are some immediate lessons or consequences, taken within hours. but any profound clarification of what exactly happened will have

to wait until this clash either ends or declines to a level that enables this investigation. it's...|t's very painful. it's extremely painful and quite shocked. but i can tell you with a sense of proportion, israel is strong enough to fight the hamas, and even if it spread over to hezbollah, and even if some dormant cells will wake up injudea and samaria, or some iranian agents will try to killjews abroad, israel is strong. there is no existential threat to israel and we will win. when binyamin netanyahu, in that first day of reaction to hamas�*s brutal assault, netanyahu said, "israel is at war.

this is a war that we will fight to the end. we will destroy hamas and it will change the middle east forever." but to fight and win that kind of a war, israel needs to trust its leadership. do you trust mr netanyahu to lead israel in this war? look, it is not a secret that i'm probably the harshest critic on the public arena of netanyahu, and very deeply involved in the protests. but this terrible disaster basically united us. i don't think that it's proper to deal now with my personal assessment of neta nyahu. he carries with him certain doubts, because in a certain way, he's responsible. he was at the top of the hierarchy during the last ten months. and he was warned more than once by professionals

in the intelligence, in the defence forces, that this judicial reform that he calls it, the reform, quote unquote, we call it a judicial coup d'etat, that the responses within the public are risking the security of israel, and he basically ignored it. so there is some responsibility, but we have a responsibility on him. and just in the last few hours, he added to his cabinet, which is basically very weak one as of now, he added gantz and eisenkot, the two gentlemen who are serious, serious professionals, and it makes it a little bit better. as you say, in the last few hours, we've learned that there is going to be an emergency government, a war management threesome at the top of that government, which will include benny gantz, leader of one of the opposition parties, the national unity party.

so, complete siege, the defence minister says, of gaza. no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel allowed into that territory of 2.3 million people. is that acceptable? for the time being, it's acceptable. i don't think that's a policy to the end of time. and every statement, every operation during such a war, which has both tactical and somewhat more strategic intentions, and a lot to do with the perception of the situation. at this stage, i fully back this step, facing the atrocities of these crimes against humanity. what happened is unbelievable, i don't even want to dive into it right now. for the time being, it's ok. and time will tell how it continues, dependent on other things.

we in the outside world, we have seen the extent of the brutality, the nature of the atrocities committed by hamas on israeli soil. we have seen that. but what we also see and hear now, and it has to be said, and i'm sure you see it and think about it, too, is that gaza's hospitals are already running out of vital supplies of anaesthetics, medicines, airway tubes for children. we know that the death toll in gaza has already passed 1,000, and that includes many children. and the question obviously has to be asked. this looks like collective punishment of a people in pursuit of a particular group. and there are international laws and norms which say that civilians cannot be targeted in

pursuit of waraims. you know, that's the difference between hamas and the state of israel. we are part of the enlightened world. the difference is that they came deliberately in order to cruelly slain...slaughter, basically, innocent civilians. when you fight against terror which deliberately deploy itself within civilian society, there is certain amount, sometimes painful, but part of reality of collateral damage, people, the civilians, are sometimes killed as a result of it. yeah, the evidence doesn't speak to israel right now making a distinction between hitting hamas and hitting civilian targets. we've seen that 18 unrwa schools run by the un, and acting as shelters for civilians, have already been damaged in the bombing. and we know from the idf

spokesman that, right now, as he put it, this bombing is about causing damage. it is not about precision. the reality is that every target that where a bomb is launched at is a target that has to do with hamas. in all targets, even certain neighbourhoods is going to be attacked to get rid of the hamas deployment within it, the idf issue, several hours before then, a general kind of announcement to the public to leave these areas. probably, if deliberately, hamas headquarters try to get immunity through deploying their offices or some installation or rocket—launching kind of operations close to schools. it becomes a kind of a danger to whoever is in the school.

and we basically announced many times since the beginning, some 100 hours ago, everyone to know that if you have any hamas installation or operation in your immediate vicinity, get out of there. because every operation and activity and office or housing of hamas people is a target, and we will hit it. i have no doubt that humanitary kind of materials to treat wounded people in hospitals will not be blocked by israel. well, they are being blocked right now. and when you tell me that people must get out, i'm wondering where they get out to, in one of the most densely populated places on earth, where it seems neighbourhoods across the strip are currently being

targeted with ferocious bombardment. and when we know that israeli tanks are massing on the boundary fence and it seems inevitable they will go in, where are these people supposed to go? look, there is still enough places in gaza which are not in the immediate vicinity. and if you look at a picture, you might see that probably 99% of the buildings in the city of gaza are still standing on their place. and those who are hitted are those where we know from our intelligence, and i'm sure that people who are living there know from what they see every day, that they are deployments of hamas. if i may, mr barak, you're an experienced politician as well as a military man. you know that, in the course of the next hours, days and weeks, as that palestinian death toll

rises, and it's already gone beyond 1,000, you know that, for all of the massive sympathy that is felt for israel around the world, there will also be a clear line from many in the european union, from europe, from the united nations and elsewhere, saying israel must adhere to the basics of international law when it comes to protecting civilians. so my question to you is, at what point are the politicians of israel going to have to say to themselves, this death toll as it rises is becoming unacceptable? look, i'm confident that the new kind of inner cabinet, i'm confident they understand without having a need to listen to this programme, or to you, or to me, they are fully aware of the international law and they understand the dynamic that

you have just described. and i'm confident it will be taken into account. but having said that, i can tell you that you have to think on what would have happened in any european country if they have isis or daesh operation on a huge scale, not on the other side of the world or thousands of miles apart, but on their... half a mile from their border and operating inside their population. i cannot ignore that there will be human suffering there. it should be taken the context, we cannot afford stopping before it become clear and inevitable that hamas won't be able, not just for the next two years, but the next 20 years, to repeat such a disastrous attack

as the last one, just last saturday. there is one other complicating factor in the military operation that we've begun to discuss. that is the fact that we believe around 150 israelis, including children, women and men, are currently held captive inside the gaza strip by hamas. i want to read to you words reportedly said by mr smotrich, a far right member of netanyahu's cabinet, who said a couple of days ago regarding the hostages, "we have to be cruel now and not consider the captives overmuch." as a military man and a politician in israel, are those words difficult but true? or is that actually misrepresenting the hostages as a factor?

this is a marginal messianic nut that netanyahu, for reasons that i can... i know, but i cannot really accept, brought into his his government — this smotrich, together with his partner ben—gvir. and i'm fully confident that... what about what he said about the hostages? does the israeli army effectively have to ignore the reality of those captives and their fate when it is prosecuting this military operation? after the entering into the inner cabinet of gantz and eisenkot, two former heads of the israeli defence forces and one of them even former minister of defence, i'm confident that every cabinet meeting — and smotrich want to be part of this inner cabinet —

will take these constraints, basically, even without smotrich's statement, it's still a very subtle constraint on our operation, and it will be taken into account seriously. does the coming ground force invasion, and i'm assuming it's going to happen because those tanks are gathered on the edge of gaza for a very clear reason, and netanyahu's stated aim is the complete destruction of hamas... does that ground invasion, to you, mean there is bound to be a long—term military reoccupation of gaza? you know, you put yourfinger, stephen, on the real, real constraints on the whole operation. one is following the international law. another is the hostages. and third one is what to do once you take over the gaza strip.

the israeli armed forces, ground forces... and i cannot accept the idea that it's inevitable, nothing is inevitable, but it's very highly probable that, at a certain point, we will enter into the gaza. israel can take over the main part of the gaza strip, except the city itself, probably within two days. and if they have to go into the heavily built area of the city itself, it might take probably a week or ten days. and then to clean it from every spot where the hamas left their infrastructure, probably another four weeks. so within five to six weeks, i believe the whole area could be under our control. and there is a question that the inner cabinet will have to contemplate seriously if it decides to enter.

in fact, it had to contemplate it before it actually entered, ordered the incursion into the strip. what is the next step? what are we going to do with it? the ideal situation is that israel will pass the torch of control of this area, once it's clearfrom hamas, to certain arab force made from egyptians, emiratis, moroccans, qataris, who will keep an order and arrange bringing back the palestinian authority, namely abu mazen, to control it. but that's idealistic picture. i...i'm farfrom being sure that it's possible, and we'll have to consider what to do next. yeah, it clearly matters a great deal, what next. and i want to actually end on the bigger picture, if i may. i was reporting on you when you tried to make

peace with yasser arafat, based on a two—state solution, at the beginning of this century. you failed. but the truth is that we still have two peoples locked in close proximity on one strip of land between the mediterranean sea and the jordan river. you believed in territorial compromise then. you did not believe in permanent military occupation. you did not believe in the expansion ofjewish settlements. so i ask you right now — how does this end? netanyahu talks about changing the middle east forever. but in your view, how does israel ensure long—term peace and security now? i'm not against changing the middle east forever in the right direction. there might be a dispute about what the right direction looks like. but at least the first step are fully agreed among israel — they need to destroy.

it's not taking revenge, just to make this behaviour erased and eliminated from the region. for sure, from israel. i do not swear that our experience with hamas will cancel the possibility of emergence of such daesh—like, or nazi—like if you want, behaviour on our part or other part of the world. but we cannot accept it in our neighbourhood. so basically we agree on what has to be done now. we have to kind of paralyse any possibility of hamas, the terror, murderous, barbarian organisation, to stand once again. and this is it. now, even the military — before we go to the political vision for the long—term — even the military part of it might not end in gaza. even during an incursion into gaza, if it happens,

or even without incursion into gaza, it might deteriorate in the north with hezbollah, and probably the iranians might be interested. you know, some people say that even the disaster in saturday was aimed at blocking the way for the triangular political deal between america... the united states, saudi arabia and israel. and this triangular deal is delayed for the foreseeable future. it can deteriorate into two fronts, into a clash in gaza, at the same time with the hezbollah. and i do not recommend... isn't the simple truth, mr barak, and we're almost out of time, but isn't the simple truth, just very briefly, that israel has contemplated living without a peace with the palestinians, of turning the palestinians somehow into a sideshow and making peace with all the other arabs? it is quite clear now, that won't work. and to be honest with you...

you, in your heart of hearts, have surely known for a long time that won't work. ok, so it's a grave mistake of the present government and in a way of the right political side, the right wing in israel. but as i mentioned, it's not the issue right now. this dispute will have to be decided after this effort to paralyse the hamas has been successful. and i still stick to everything that i believed in. i'm confident that we will have at the end... it might take a long time, it's not practical immediately... when i left camp david that you have mentioned, i said five, 15 or 50 — five—zero — years, when the time come to have an agreement, it will be about two—state solution, about about keeping 80% of the settlers within several percent of the whole area,

and having an independent israel well secure with all its strategic assets, side by side with a demilitarised, viable palestinian state. that's the vision. it's not actually ourjob now. and when it become practical, i will be ready to give you another interview. all right. ehud barak, thank you for joining me from tel aviv. we need to leave it there. thank you. hello. the outlook for the next few days

as we look towards the weekend will bring quite a lot of sunshine, but, with that, a decidedly chilly feel — some chilly days and some cold nights. some places will see their first frosts of the season. there will be a few showers around. some of those could be wintry over high ground in the north. during today, southern parts have seen cloud and some outbreaks of rain. that was how it looked in hastings. and some really heavy rain is on the way for friday in association with this area of low pressure, this frontal system, pushing up from the south. turning really wet overnight across parts of england and wales. there could be enough rain in places for some flooding. but some mild air will be pushing up with this weather system, so overnight lows across the southern half of the uk in double digits. further north a little bit chillier, but not as cold as it was last night because it will be quite breezy, and there will be this little weather front bringing some cloud and some splashes of rain. so, for tomorrow, outbreaks of rain particularly across parts of england and wales, although there will be some sunny gaps. turning really quite windy across central and southern parts

and also very windy up to the north. sunny spells and showers for scotland and for northern ireland. here, getting into some chilly air, 10—13 celsius. some mild or even warm conditions further south — it could get to 20 celsius in london, but that will not last into the weekend. now, we will see gales during friday night across northern parts of scotland, but it's the wind direction that brings the real change in the feel of things. these north—westerly winds bringing colder weather southwards across all parts of the country. now, that said, there will be quite a lot of sunshine around on saturday, but showers in areas exposed to that north—westerly wind and those showers turning wintry over high ground in scotland. temperatures of 7 celsius in stornoway, 1a celsius in london and in plymouth. on saturday night, there will still be a few showers. we could see snow down to say 200 or 300 meters above sea level across parts of scotland. under largely clear skies with the winds easing, it's going to be a cold night. many places getting close to freezing, some places

getting below freezing. a touch of frost for quite a few locations, i think, on sunday morning. but a mostly fine and sunny day, not as many showers. the winds will be lighter, but it will still feel rather chilly. temperatures for most between 8—13 celsius.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm arunoday mukharji. let's get you the headlines the gaza health ministry says more than 15—hundred people have now been killed in israeli airstrikes. israel warns the siege of gaza will not end until its hostages are released, as power and clean water start to run out. and the us secretary of state meets survivors of saturday's attacks, saying hamas is intentionally putting civilians in harm's way. live from our studio in singapore. this is bbc news. welcome to the programme. starting with the latest

from the gaza health ministry