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tv   Newsnight  BBC News  October 16, 2023 10:30pm-11:11pm BST

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rishi sunak reiterated his support for both thejewish and muslim communities in the uk, and earlier in the day he paid a visit to a jewish school in north london. here's our political editor chris mason. from the horrors in the middle east, to communities here feeling under threat. two schools in london targeted in recent days, by anti—semitic vandalism. as the prime minister visited anotherjewish school in the capital. we've had an appalling rise in anti—semitic incidents over the past week. that is something that is tragic. no young person, none of you should have to deal with hate like that. in parliament this afternoon, heads bowed, a minute's silence. and later rishi sunak told mps of the british victims of hamas�*s slaughter. with a heavy heart, i can inform the house that at least six british
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citizens were killed. a further ten are missing, some of whom are feared to be among the dead. we must support absolutely israel's right to defend itself. this must be done in line with international humanitarian law. this programme continues on bbc one. frantic diplomacy continues, as the world waits for the expected ground operation by israel troops to begin in gaza in response to the hamas massacre. the humanitarian crisis in the gaza strip is becoming desparate, as more than a million people leave their homes and many more men, women and children are killed.
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tonight... when will the border crossing from gaza to egypt be opened, to let people out and humanitarian aid in? the un warns the health system in gaza is "collapsing before our very eyes". iamjust i am just two kilometres from gaza and most of the city has been evacuated ahead of israel's expected a ground offensive. last week, one israeli mother told us about the kidnapping of her son by hamas from that music festival. michal had hope that 20—year—old laor was still alive. now she's received the devastating news that he has been killed by hamas. and she has this message. he was murdered by these monsters and still, i want to ask, i don't
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want any vengeance. i want no vengeance in my name. plus one man who won't leave the north of gaza — a british—palestinian surgeon. he says 40% of those he is treating are children, for burns, blast and crush injuries. the surgical capacity of the hospital was unable to deal with the sheer number of wounded, now 9,000 wounded in ten days. which means that there are hundreds of patients who need surgery, and have not had their surgery yet. and israeli historian yuval noah harari on an horrific week. i hope that israel will emerge from this catastrophe more united, stronger, with a very, very different leadership, and a very different world view. "a tide of humanity" is moving from northern gaza to the south, as more than 2 million palestinians in the gaza strip prepare for an expected ground offensive by israeli troops.
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there are frantic diplomatic talks, firstly to ease what israeli officials have called the "siege" of gaza, where there's a deepening humanitarian crisis — clean water is running out, as are food supplies — and also to try to prevent this conflict spreading across the region. the us secretary of state is still in the region, having postponed going back to the us tonight, and president biden appears to be weighing up an invitation to visit israel. meanwhile, the israeli military says it now knows the identities of 199 people — including children and the elderly — who were taken hostage by hamas in gaza. it says their families have been informed and there is growing anger and frustration among some at a lack of any progress over their fate. meanwhile, prime minister rishi sunak has confirmed six british people were killed in the hamas attack and ten more are missing, including two teenage sisters. from sderot in southern israel, here's emir.
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homes are empty. and shops are closed. on every corner a bomb shelter. but the illusion of security has gone from these streets. it's been ten days since hamas fighters reached sderot. surging in byjeep, shattering the morning quiet. taking dozens of lives, civilians and police with them. the last hamas fighter was found holed up here only midweek. the scars of the attack still visible. and here, the rubble of the police station that became their impromptu base. since the attack began, 75 rocks have hit this town, and nearby more struck today. -- 75 —— 75 rockets. we are less than two miles from gaza, here in sderot. the roads are mostly deserted and its residents have been asked to leave while the army prepares
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for its grounds offensive. the residents we have spoken to have said that it is not they aren't scared to stay, but they can't contemplate leaving their homes, despite the occasional rocket that still hits, and the sound of outgoing artillery fire, rattling windows, and it is difficult to imagine the scenes where those rockets land so close to here. translation: before we were afraid, but now it's a completely _ different type of fear. it has given me huge anxiety. if this time it isn't overfor good i'm not just leaving sderot, i'm leaving israel. most of sderot�*s 30,000 residents have left. for those who stay, food, water, baby wipes are being handed out by this community group. many people from gaza would come to sderot and work. we have heard of ten of thousands who would come here. translation: i've had gazan workmen at my house and i also _ have a neighbourfrom gaza. from gaza? yes, some of his family live there and some of his family live here. do you know where they are now,
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do you think of them? translation: to be honest, i i feel pain for all of the families, for those who had to leave and move to the south of gaza. it is not up to them. hamas controls them. if hamas didn't control them, then they would be safe. they are not safe on their side because of hamas, and we are also not safe because of hamas, but the reasons are different. they want to use them as human shields, and us they want to slaughter. it is not fighter against fighter, it is women and children they kill. streets quiet in sderot, but a few miles from here, there are streets that no longer exist. concrete boulders lifted from a baby's body. israeli airstrikes have killed 254 palestinians in the past 2a hours, the local authorities announced monday evening. over 2,700 gazans have been killed since israel's campaign began — roughly a third of them are children. it is becoming increasingly
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difficult to reach people in gaza by video call, but this woman managed to send us this. i am currently in the city in my grandparents�* house. we have about four other families from our relatives living with us. we only have three bottles of water left, drinking water, and we don't have any running water at the moment, in our sinks. we are sleeping on the floor. there is no electricity and there is no internet. the reception of the phones is very bad as well. the palestinians obviously want and need — we are in desperate need for aid at the moment, to come through the riverjordan, —— through the rafah border. but what we need more, is for this aggression and this genocide and these massacres to stop, and then we can think about aid, because what is the point of water running in my sink and me washing my face if i am going to be
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dead and killed a few minutes after that. back in sderot we find an israeli government spokesperson, and asked him about their campaign in gaza. we told the people where it would be, the war, we told the people where we know the hamas people are. the problem is i am pretty sure that hamas went with these people. the one of the reasons that the borders are closed is also because we don't want our hostages to be taken away from the gaza strip. but if we say that hamas is always with civilians and they go with them, then there is no safe space for a civilian in gaza. no, there will be safe spaces. but how, if we always say there is hamas among the civilians. because i hope that hamas will care for their own civilians. even that i say they are not logical and not rational, at the end of the day, if they want to rule they need people to rule. it does paint a very dire picture to be a civilian in gaza. it feels like what we are learning from this conversation is that there is nowhere safe in gaza for a civilian. and was there a place
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safe here in the region on saturday morning? let us take one step back, and let us think who is behind hamas. iran. the goal of iran is to have chaoses in the region, in order to be the one who is the leader of the region. there is no public proof that iran played a role in co—ordinating the hamas attack, but it is an assertion that israel is keen to repeat. widening this war from an internal one, to a geopolitical conflict. after we left israel, we have gone now to, i think have i lost track, but to six countries in the region — jordan, bahrain, qatar, the united arab emirates. saudi arabia, now here in egypt. and the purpose of seeing all of our partners was first and foremost to listen to them, to hear how they are seeing this crisis, and to look at what we can do together, to deal with many of
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the concerns it's raised. the us is urging calm, but today, the iranian government said the time for political solutions is running out, and war on other fronts is becoming inevitable. textbook fiery threats from iran, but they know carry a new sharpness as its proxy hezbollah continues to launch sporadic rockets into israel. yet what future there can be for relationships between neighbours is not a regional or a political question here, but a personal one. how can you imagine the relationship with the gazans who you knew before, who would come over, how do you imagine that relationship to be in the future? translation: i want and dream l of what we had in the past, a place where we were living together. do you think that is possible, ever, now? no, i don't think so. and that report was produced byjasmin dyer and filmed byjon hughes. us secretary of state antony blinken
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has been back in tel aviv today after a three—day round of diplomacy, trying to prevent the crisis engulfing the region. let's speak to the former british ambassador to afghanistan, saudi arabia, iraq and sudan, sir william patey, and non—resident scholar at the middle east institute hafsa halawa. good evening and thank you for talking to our audience. there would appear to be a number of countries who really want to help de—escalate this. who really want to help de-escalate this. ., , . ., , this. for sure, particularly countries _ this. for sure, particularly countries like _ this. for sure, particularly countries like saudi - this. for sure, particularlyl countries like saudi arabia, this. for sure, particularly - countries like saudi arabia, egypt and jordan. they stand to lose the most from escalation of the crisis. even iran, i think, the saudis have been talking to iran, and crown prince mohammed elsa man was only a phone call with the president because, in recent days and months,
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the saudis have been engaged in some sort of rapprochement with iran. they want to reduce the tensions even before this horrific hamas attack on israel. they can see the possibility of this getting out of control, if hezbollah increases its rocket attacks or carry out their promise to attack israel more seriously if a land invasion of gaza takes place, which seems likely, then the prospect of escalation is very, very real, and the prospect of a wider middle east war with iran attacking ships in the straights of hormuz all in prospect. nobody in the released want to see that. mit? the released want to see that. why won't egypt — the released want to see that. why won't egypt open — the released want to see that. why won't egypt open the rafah crossing to let some people out and let humanitarian aid in? what's going on? i
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humanitarian aid in? what's going on? ., ., ., , , ., on? i mean, arguably, from the eu tian on? i mean, arguably, from the egyptian side. _ on? i mean, arguably, from the egyptian side, they _ on? i mean, arguably, from the egyptian side, they say, - on? i mean, arguably, from the egyptian side, they say, it's - on? i mean, arguably, from the egyptian side, they say, it's notj on? i mean, arguably, from the i egyptian side, they say, it's not on us. egyptian side, they say, it's not on us we _ egyptian side, they say, it's not on us. we agreed when secretary of state _ us. we agreed when secretary of state blinken was in cairo, and they have two— state blinken was in cairo, and they have two major concerns, one is a boundary — have two major concerns, one is a boundary and security concern, and the board _ boundary and security concern, and the board has been shelled for the fourth _ the board has been shelled for the fourth time today since the bombardment today and there are questions — bombardment today and there are questions about the ability to safety— questions about the ability to safely move goods into the gaza side of that— safely move goods into the gaza side of that border and also to move nationats— of that border and also to move nationals out. the second is the big question— nationals out. the second is the big question about mass displacement. the egyptians, the good aliens, qataris. — the egyptians, the good aliens, qataris, turks and others have been defiant _ qataris, turks and others have been defiant in_ qataris, turks and others have been defiant in saying they will not accept — defiant in saying they will not accept or— defiant in saying they will not accept or tolerate any suggestion or attempt _ accept or tolerate any suggestion or attempt to— accept or tolerate any suggestion or attempt to move palestinians in gaza en masse _ attempt to move palestinians in gaza en masse into the sinai peninsula. -- the _ en masse into the sinai peninsula. —— the egyptians, the jordanians. later— —— the egyptians, the jordanians. later statement is the israelis themselves the blocking partner in this trilateral negotiations going on. ~ ., ., ., ,, .,
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this trilateral negotiations going on. what would happen -- have to ha en on. what would happen -- have to happen to — on. what would happen -- have to happen to prompt— on. what would happen -- have to happen to prompt lebanon - on. what would happen -- have to happen to prompt lebanon to - on. what would happen -- have to happen to prompt lebanon to get| happen to prompt lebanon to get involved, to prompt iran to get involved? because that is not leaden getting involved, it is hezbollah, and hezbollah control that part of lebanon. i think the mass displacement of people in gaza a land invasion into gaza, which looks likely, we are already seeing rocket exchanges between hezbollah in southern lebanon and israel northern lebanon. israelis in your report, they are evacuating northern areas, so they are anticipating an escalation in the fighting. if hezbollah don't attack as a result of a land invasion, they will appear to have been bluffing. fir of a land invasion, they will appear to have been bluffing.— to have been bluffing. or they will look weak- — to have been bluffing. or they will look weak. very _ to have been bluffing. or they will look weak. very weak, _ to have been bluffing. or they will look weak. very weak, and - to have been bluffing. or they will look weak. very weak, and iran i to have been bluffing. or they will. look weak. very weak, and iran will want to appear _
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look weak. very weak, and iran will want to appear as _ look weak. very weak, and iran will want to appear as the _ look weak. very weak, and iran will want to appear as the protector - look weak. very weak, and iran will want to appear as the protector of i want to appear as the protector of the palestinians. they also desperate often tried to present themselves like that. that's a factor in the psychology of this. you were in the region during previous violence. how is this different? it previous violence. how is this different?— previous violence. how is this different? , . , different? it feels so much bigger. the scale, different? it feels so much bigger. the scale. not _ different? it feels so much bigger. the scale, notjust _ different? it feels so much bigger. the scale, notjust of— different? it feels so much bigger. the scale, notjust of the - different? it feels so much bigger. the scale, notjust of the violence| the scale, not just of the violence that we've — the scale, not just of the violence that we've seen, the attack, an unprecedented moment but we've never seen in _ unprecedented moment but we've never seen in the _ unprecedented moment but we've never seen in the 56 years of occupation, as well— seen in the 56 years of occupation, as well as — seen in the 56 years of occupation, as well as the scale of the bombardment from israel in the last ei-ht bombardment from israel in the last eight or— bombardment from israel in the last eight or nine days as everybody in the region— eight or nine days as everybody in the region really quite fearful. i've the region really quite fearful. i've never— the region really quite fearful. i've never really felt it in such a way _ i've never really felt it in such a way on — i've never really felt it in such a way on a — i've never really felt it in such a way on a social level. events have been _ way on a social level. events have been cancelled, all kind of cultural events, _ been cancelled, all kind of cultural events, state events across the region _ events, state events across the region are — events, state events across the region are being cancelled. social media _ region are being cancelled. social media is— region are being cancelled. social media is flooded. people are not going _ media is flooded. people are not going out, — media is flooded. people are not going out, they are glued to their phones _ going out, they are glued to their phones and the television. there really— phones and the television. there really is — phones and the television. there
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really is a — phones and the television. there really is a palpable sense of trepidation of what could possibly come. _ trepidation of what could possibly come. as— trepidation of what could possibly come, as this escalates, notjust in the form _ come, as this escalates, notjust in the form of— come, as this escalates, notjust in the form of a — come, as this escalates, notjust in the form of a ground invasion but relaying _ the form of a ground invasion but relaying att— the form of a ground invasion but relaying all the statements and hear on arattic— relaying all the statements and hear on arabic language media we get these _ on arabic language media we get these regular statements from all these _ these regular statements from all these different militia groups. we had a _ these different militia groups. we had a statement this evening on the iranian— had a statement this evening on the iranian foreign minister, claiming there _ iranian foreign minister, claiming there may— iranian foreign minister, claiming there may be pre—emptive strikes against _ there may be pre—emptive strikes against israel, possibly from the gotan— against israel, possibly from the golan heights. and everyone is really— golan heights. and everyone is reallyjust on the edge, absolutely terrified _ reallyjust on the edge, absolutely terrified of how this may escalate, and the _ terrified of how this may escalate, and the sense that really, after the 7th of— and the sense that really, after the 7th of october, the region is possibly— 7th of october, the region is possibly changed for ever. the mention of golan is apposite, because the syrians themselves could use this opportunity, possibly, to try and seize the golan, they could be opportunist about it at the urging of the iranian, so the prospect of escalation are very real, even although antony blinken
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is doing the whole rounds, i understand you were saying president biden maybe visiting israel. stand biden maybe visiting israel. and invitation has _ biden maybe visiting israel. and invitation has been extended. biden maybe visiting israel. and i invitation has been extended. but the, even invitation has been extended. elf the, even the americans will be working hard, in the region with regional allies and players, to try and head off the possibility of this wider conflict, which everybody fears. ~ . , wider conflict, which everybody fears. ~ ., , wider conflict, which everybody fears. ., , ., wider conflict, which everybody fears. ~ ., , ., ., fears. what is the way out of this? well... i know _ fears. what is the way out of this? well... i know it's _ fears. what is the way out of this? well... i know it's a _ fears. what is the way out of this? well... i know it's a massive - well... i know it's a massive question _ well... i know it's a massive question and _ well... i know it's a massive question and i _ well... i know it's a massive question and i won't - well... i know it's a massive question and i won't give - well... i know it's a massive| question and i won't give you well... i know it's a massive - question and i won't give you loads of time to answer it the question and i won't give you loads of time to answer i— of time to answer it the way out would be for— of time to answer it the way out would be for israel _ of time to answer it the way out would be for israel not - of time to answer it the way out would be for israel not the - of time to answer it the way out | would be for israel not the invade gaza but it is not likely, i don't see that happening. the israelis are too far down psychologically they are going to invade gaza. the way out of it would be for hezbollah to exercise some self restraint, that doesn't look likely. i don't know that, then you have the, the arab states urge iran not to use this opportunity to escalate further, but each stage there is all sorts of
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possibility of miscalculation, and thatis possibility of miscalculation, and that is the problem. nobody... lt’s. that is the problem. nobody... it's, does it feel— that is the problem. nobody... it's, does it feel really _ that is the problem. nobody... it's, does it feel really precarious? think it does, mine...- does it feel really precarious? think it does, mine... what do you think? i think it does, mine... what do you think? i am — think it does, mine... what do you think? i am -- _ think it does, mine... what do you think? i am -- absolutely, - think it does, mine... what do you think? i am -- absolutely, part - think it does, mine... what do you think? i am -- absolutely, part ofl think? i am -- absolutely, part of this is also _ think? i am -- absolutely, part of this is also because _ think? i am -- absolutely, part of this is also because there - think? i am -- absolutely, part of this is also because there has - think? i am -- absolutely, part of| this is also because there has been a reat— this is also because there has been a real sense — this is also because there has been a real sense and warnings in our discussion— a real sense and warnings in our discussion for a few years there has been _ discussion for a few years there has been talk— discussion for a few years there has been talk about something exploding, not in _ been talk about something exploding, not in the _ been talk about something exploding, not in the sense i think anyone predicted — not in the sense i think anyone predicted anything like this, our eyes _ predicted anything like this, our eyes were — predicted anything like this, our eyes were on the west bank and what was happening but this idea, the continuing to sideline bypass ignore the question of the palestinian cause — the question of the palestinian cause we — the question of the palestinian cause we was going to cause some kind of— cause we was going to cause some kind of explosion and i think at this point, _ kind of explosion and i think at this point, in the longer term, the immediate — this point, in the longer term, the immediate term i agree with with the ambassador of how to de—escalate is what is _ ambassador of how to de—escalate is what is needed but in the long—term we need _ what is needed but in the long—term we need to— what is needed but in the long—term we need to have an honest and
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thoughtful discussion about occupation because it defines this region— occupation because it defines this region and — occupation because it defines this region and it will continue to until we find _ region and it will continue to until we find a — region and it will continue to until we find a solution for the self determination of the palestinians. thank— determination of the palestinians. thank you — determination of the palestinians. thank you very much both of you. thank you very much both of you. than you for talking to our audience. last week on newsnight, mark went to visit michal helev and david abramos, who live about an hour north ofjerusalem. their 20—year—old son, laor, was at that music festival when it was attacked by hamas. they told mark they had seen evidence that their son had been taken to gaza as a hostage, alive. they have since had some devasting news. we thought he was kidnapped. and we didn't know where he was and we were desperate to find him. ever since then, we've been looking at looking and putting our efforts into finding him until eventually, on wednesday night, we had two soldiers and two social workers come
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to the house and, then in a very, very — sorry — devastating moment, they told us, your son was murdered. that's what we have learnt. that was the most devastating moment in my entire life. and i am so, so sorry for your loss. it is unimaginable for anybody watching you this evening, what you are going through. i don't think i can ever explain this feeling to anyone. it's the worst nightmare i can ever imagine. i could never even imagine ever experiencing anything so horrible. we haven't been able to get
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any more information. we are just trying to gather any information we can, but we don't know when or where or how. we just know that that's what happened. you have a message for politicians, for leaders everywhere. what is it that you want to say to them? my child was murdered by these monsters. and still i want to ask, i don't want any vengeance. i want no vengeance in my name. i am begging the world, don't go into war. go and help those people. the young people and the elders, the children that are growing up now
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and educated to be haters, everything i asked for is that they be taught how to love and heal their wounds and stop this anger and stop this hate. stop killing. killing is not the answer. war isn't the answer. war is not the answer. this is not a solution. we have to find a way to teach these children to love, to teach the young people of the haters to be lovers. we have to bring in more mothers and more healers, to stop, this can't be the answer to the horror, more horror. we can't let this be.
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just a minute. it's hard for me to speak. i'm so sorry. please don't say sorry. there is absolutely no need for you to say sorry. i want the children to be saved. i want the women to be saved. i want to be innocent to be saved. i want our kidnapped people, babies and young people, to be safe, and i'm begging. something huge needs to change in the world. i'm not speaking as a politician. i'm not speaking as a person with any knowledge. i'm speaking as a mother, that the dearest thing in my life,
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my only son, has been taken away from me. i have no more tears left in me. i have nothing left in this world, but the only time i can breathe again is knowing that i have to share my voice and tell people, stop this, don't fight back. let's talk to emir now injerusalem. emir, what are you hearing out of gaza this evening? brute emir, what are you hearing out of gaza this evening?— gaza this evening? we have been heafina gaza this evening? we have been hearing very _ gaza this evening? we have been hearing very desperate _ gaza this evening? we have been hearing very desperate appeals . gaza this evening? we have been i hearing very desperate appeals from the doctors in gaza, shared on social media today, many of them saying they have never witnessed scenes like this in all the round of conflict, in gaza, before, in one video, a doctorfrom a hospital talks about the difficulty in continuing to receive the bodies of children and having to write on the sheets that wraps them, unknown baby
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75, unknown baby 76. the un agency there in gaza has said they have been trying to get fuel in today but haven't been able to, haven't been able to get any aid into gaza since the war began, and one of the un statement we saw today said that some gazans have been so desperate they have resorted to drinking sea water, that is how dire the situation is. god. and do you have any sense of how imminent this ground operation is? ~ ., , , ., how imminent this ground operation is? well, there has been no official u date is? well, there has been no official update from _ is? well, there has been no official update from the _ is? well, there has been no official update from the government, - is? well, there has been no officiall update from the government, about when you know, the ground offensive may begin and you could see from our film, how many of the border towns around the gaza strip have been so fully evacuated, most people have been encouraged to leave but the majority have left, here in
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jerusalem our hotel, like many of the other hotels have been receiving coachloads of israeli families who there been brought there, and i think that gives you a little sense of the urgency by which israel is still planning this ground offensive.— still planning this ground offensive. . ~' , . offensive. thank you very much. thank you _ offensive. thank you very much. thank you emir. _ offensive. thank you very much. thank you emir. talking - offensive. thank you very much. thank you emir. talking to - offensive. thank you very much. thank you emir. talking to us i hamas killed more than 1,400 people in israel. more than 2,700 people in gaza have been killed by israel since the start of the escalation. in gaza, water is running out and there are huge queues at bakeries where bread is rationed to five pieces perfamily. hospitals are close to a complete collapse of services, threatening thousands of lives, says the un. earlier i spoke to professor ghassan abu—sittah, a plastic surgeon who is treating patients in gaza city's largest hospital al shifa, and started by asking him
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whether he is witnessing a complete collapse of services as a result of the war. before the war, the hospital had a capacity of 700 beds, there is probably twice that number of wounded in the hospital, they are in mattresses in the corridors and in the emergency department. today we were told that the water pressure in the hospital is not capable of supporting the sterilisation machines, and we were given gallons of disinfectant to start using when resterilising surgical instruments between cases. the surgical capacity of the hospital was unable to deal with the sheer number of wounded, now 9,000 wounded in ten days. what kind of people are being brought to you? what sort of ages?
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so 40% of all the wounded are children. and they are everything from neo—nates to toddlers, to teenagers. we are about to start our 11th case today, and five of these cases were children, and we have had elderly patients treated. we had an elderly man today, with really quite a large injury to his right thigh. and all of them, especially the children, are being taken out from underneath the rubble of their homes, when their homes were targeted. and as well as the physical injury, i mean, the psychological trauma is, must be horrific? these children are traumatised. and what is everyone more
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devastating is there is a phenomenon we refer to them as wounded children with no surviving family. i saw two yesterday, i saw another, operated on another one today, you know, these kids are facing a bleak future, full of reconstructive surgery, with no—one to be there for them. and how does that make you feel? well, as a parent it is just heart—wrenching. imean... and as a surgeon who does a lot of paediatric reconstructive work, i know the kind of surgeries they are going to need. as their bodies try to grow, they are restricted by the scarring of the initial injury and they need continuous surgery until they are teenagers, and beyond, until they reach adult age. i want to ask you finally about something that you tweeted today. you said that police turned up at yourfamily home in london, where your wife is, where your three
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boys are, why? i don't know. i, i think it's a kind of brutish attempt at harassment, and..., i remain permitted to speak on behalf of my patient, on behalf of my patients, on behalf of the wounded, on behalf of the families that are being destroyed. there are 50 families who have been wiped out of the civil register, which means that the grandparents, the parents and the grandchildren were all killed. the children that i treat, all of this means that it is my duty as a doctor to advocate for my patients and their families and it is my duty to bear witness, kind of carnage that is being committed against them so it would stop, and this
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kind of police tactics, i mean, as if my wife did not have enough to worry about, that she had to endure this today, and it is now been taken up by the lawyers. by your lawyers? yes. i mean, i need to find out why someone thought it was, it would be a good idea for them to show up at my house, and ask my wife which part of the hospital i am in, and why did i go and who paid for my ticket? and which charity do i work for? at this time, at these difficult times my family is, is seeing this bombing unfold, knowing very well that i'm in the midst of it, and so to have them harassed in this way is just bizarre. we contacted the met police about professor abu—sitteh's account and are awaiting a response from them. given the widespread revulsion at hamas's atrocities, israel's "land, sea and air assault" will be on a much greater scale than anything israel has done in previous incursions into gaza.
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the aim? to completely eliminate hamas, the israeli prime minister says. what kind of urban warfare will it be? let's speak to major general rupertjones, who was the deputy commander of the us—led coalition to defeat isis in iraq in 2016 and directly involved in recapturing mosul. lets talk about israel's objectives. prime minister netanyahu said he wants to eliminate hamas. i'm not sure that's possible. truth? wants to eliminate hamas. i'm not sure that's possible.— wants to eliminate hamas. i'm not| sure that's possible._ you sure that's possible. why not? you can't eradicate _ sure that's possible. why not? you can't eradicate the _ sure that's possible. why not? you can't eradicate the whole _ sure that's possible. why not? you can't eradicate the whole thing - sure that's possible. why not? you can't eradicate the whole thing but | can't eradicate the whole thing but you can destroy hamas to the degree they are not an effective fighting force, so they can't mount the sort of attack they launched ten days ago from top to do that, they need to kill or capture as many hamas leaders as possible and hamas fighters. they also need to destroy as much of the infrastructure is possible, the logistics, the bomb
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making facilities hamas have. while doing that, they have to try and rescue the hostages, and they know they need to do that as quickly as possible. time is not on their side. how brutal, bloody and difficult is this going to be? h how brutal, bloody and difficult is this going to be?— this going to be? i think we need to be prepared- _ this going to be? i think we need to be prepared- it's — this going to be? i think we need to be prepared. it's incredibly- be prepared. it's incredibly difficult to stop their almost apocalyptic scenes. there is no harder warfare than fighting in a city, much harder than open countryside to tip everything is accentuated, the metal trips, casualties, suffering, weaponry to stop when we lined up to liberate mosul, iraq it had 100,000 troops in the city was about 1.5 million, so roughly the size we are talking about here for the it took nine months to liberate the city. this shows a densely _ months to liberate the city. this shows a densely populated gaza strip is. 9000 people per square kilometre in the red bit. is. 9000 people per square kilometre
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in the red bit-— in the red bit. that's about double the population _ in the red bit. that's about double the population density _ in the red bit. that's about double the population density of- in the red bit. that's about double i the population density of manchester and people say it's one of the most densely populated place on earth. ln densely populated place on earth. in terms of hamas's advantages, is their home turf and their fortifications.— their home turf and their fortifications. ., ., , , fortifications. the defender always has the advantage. _ fortifications. the defender always has the advantage. it's _ fortifications. the defender always has the advantage. it's their - fortifications. the defender always has the advantage. it's their turf, l has the advantage. it's their turf, their streets, their buildings. in gaza, there is an incredible network of tunnels that allow them to pop up in a building, fight, drop underground and drift off into the night and then pop up somewhere else. an incredible network under gaza. of course, the israelis will wish to destroy as many of those channels as possible. brute wish to destroy as many of those channels as possible._ channels as possible. we talked about the densely _ channels as possible. we talked about the densely populated - channels as possible. we talked - about the densely populated nature of this strip of land. it is going to be civilians who are really going to be civilians who are really going to suffer. riff to be civilians who are really going to suffer. . ., , ., to be civilians who are really going to suffer. _, , ., , , to suffer. of course, that is sadly inevitable- _ to suffer. of course, that is sadly inevitable. it's _ to suffer. of course, that is sadly inevitable. it's always _ to suffer. of course, that is sadly inevitable. it's always ultimately| inevitable. it's always ultimately civilians who are the victims and
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this is why the israelis have encouraged the palestinians to move out of the way, and it's the same region why hamas want them to stay. how must want to hide in among the civilian population in their homes, in their schools. people talk about using them as human shields. i prefer the term, hamas will weaponise the population. the reality is, it's going to be incredibly difficult for the israelis to identify hamas fighters from civilians.— from civilians. some people have compared. _ from civilians. some people have compared, including _ from civilians. some people have compared, including israeli - compared, including israeli politicians, hamas with isil. in terms of your own experience in most, how do you do about differentiating between fighters and innocent civilians? ft is differentiating between fighters and innocent civilians?— innocent civilians? it is incredibly difficult. you _ innocent civilians? it is incredibly difficult. you can't? _ innocent civilians? it is incredibly difficult. you can't? that's the i difficult. you can't? that's the reali . difficult. you can't? that's the reality. civilians _ difficult. you can't? that's the reality. civilians have - difficult. you can't? that's the reality. civilians have to i difficult. you can't? that's the reality. civilians have to try i difficult. you can't? that's the l reality. civilians have to try and get out of the way because, when
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battle is joint, get out of the way because, when battle isjoint, it's almost impossible to tell them apart. hamas may or may not be wearing a uniform but there are parallels between isis and hamas. these are fundamentalists and hamas. these are fundamentalists and they will fight to the death. ls and they will fight to the death. is it possible to say how long it will take to eliminate hamas, to use the words of benjamin netanyahu? legit words of ben'amin netanyahu? all we can sa is words of benjamin netanyahu? all we can say is the — words of benjamin netanyahu? all we can say is the israelis _ words of benjamin netanyahu? all we can say is the israelis will _ words of benjamin netanyahu? all we can say is the israelis will wish - words of benjamin netanyahu? all we can say is the israelis will wish to i can say is the israelis will wish to do it as quickly as possible for the when they launched the offensive, they want to get some degree of surprise, they want to go in as fast as they can, to keep international support, and also because the longer they are in gaza, the more vulnerable to air trips are. do you have any sense — vulnerable to air trips are. do you have any sense of _ vulnerable to air trips are. do you have any sense of when _ vulnerable to air trips are. do you have any sense of when israeli i have any sense of when israeli troops will go in? l have any sense of when israeli troops will go in?— have any sense of when israeli troops will go in? i think it's very hard to tell _ troops will go in? i think it's very hard to tell they _ troops will go in? i think it's very hard to tell theyjust _ troops will go in? i think it's very hard to tell theyjust mobilised i hard to tell theyjust mobilised 300,000 troops. it's hard to comprehend that. getting all those people ready for what to come takes time. they want to make sure they
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are clear what the plan is. they need all their forces in the right place, all the weapons and ammunition. that all takes time. thank you very much. what are the chances of this conflict spreading and, if that happens, who would suffer and who would benefit? is this what hamas wants? it's been designated a terrorist organisation by the uk government and others, and it doesn't want peace and doesn't believe israel should exist. professor yuval noah harari is the bestselling author of sapiens: a brief history of mankind, and is a professor of the department of history at the university ofjerusalem. does he think hamas wants israeli troops to go into gaza? it seems so, because hamas's aim in this entire attack was to destroy any chance for peace in the long—term, between israelis and palestinians, and the more death, the more misery, the more hatred hamas creates, it advances its aims. the background from the hamas attack
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was that we were very close, again, to an important peace treaty in the area, between israel and saudi arabia, which was supposed notjust to normalise relations between israel and the arab world, much of it, but also to alleviate somehow the plight, the misery of palestinians under israeli occupation and restart the peace process, and hamas attacked, to stop that. so again, any more violence and pain it manages to create, it advances its aims. can i ask, what you think will happen after israeli troops have gone in to northern gaza, do you expect them to attempt to eliminate hamas, which is what they say their aim is, and then withdraw? or do you expect them to stay in gaza? i don't know, i can't predict that. i know that israel now is in a double war, fighting a war against the hamas combatants,
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against the hamas terrorists, and also it is in war to protect, to save its own humanity, and its own democratic values, and we need to win both of these wars, notjust one. we should distinguish clearly between the terrorists of hamas, who perpetrated the atrocities and try to destroy any chance for peace, and the palestinian people, who are human beings like us, and deserve to live dignified lives in their homeland, and how to make this distinction, and you know, it is very concrete, hamas is fighting, using palestinian civilians in many cases, as human shields, placing its bases, weapons inside civilian population, and this is — israel should not go down to the level of hamas, and should strive to make this distinction.

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