my guest is montenegro's president, jakov milatovic. his country is in nate and he's seeking rapid eu membership. but could regional instability and outside meddling thwart his ambition? presidentjakov milatovic, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. it's a great pleasure to have you. you have made it quite clear your overriding political ambition and aim is to get montenegro into the eu within the next five years.

but it's not going well, is it? exactly. i think that that is why i have entered montenegrin politics a few years ago, to bring the country to the eu, and this is what i am doing on a daily basis, pushing for it. i think that all the good things are not easy. and in that way, we are trying our best. but pushing for it is one thing, promising your people that within a term — a five—year term — you can deliver it is quite another. and surely you have made a promise that you can't keep. no, that's not really true. i think that we can keep the promise and i think that having montenegro into the eu within the next five years is a very realistic thing to do. i think that montenegro has been negotiating with the eu for the last ten years. we have been, out of all the candidate countries, the frontrunner. montenegro is the only country without any big problems with their neighbours in the western balkans, which

is a rare thing in our region. as i understand it, right now, montenegro is negotiating across the 33 chapters which are necessary to deliver eu membership. you've got to achieve all of the targets. at the moment, the eu is minded to say that only three — that is 10% of them, or less — are actually being achieved by montenegro. and to quote the most recent eu commission report, your membership process has, quote, "stalled". i think that a number of things have happened in a positive way over the last few years, particularly after the political change which happened in the country following the parliamentary elections in 2020. i think that, you know, that was a crucial thing for democratic development of montenegro. and i think that in 2020, indeed, the country has entered a new era of democratic as well as economic development. montenegro was the only country in eastern europe that

didn't really change the government before 2020. and the pace of reforms in terms of rule of law, as well as economic progress, over the last few years is significant. yeah, but it was in late 2022 that the commission concluded that your process of membership had "stalled". and they pointed to a whole raft of different concerns, from — just to pick out a couple — deep concern about the independence of the media landscape in montenegro, deep concern about the rule of law, about the impact of organised crime. "corrosive", they called it. these are things that you've had years to tackle — not you personally, but the system in montenegro — and you've consistently failed to tackle. well, exactly. and this is why i think that the change that happened in 2020 was absolutely crucial for everything else which is now happening. and as you know, all the reports are past—looking. so what we have been experiencing over the last two or three years, there has been a massive clean—up

of ourjudiciary. a number of people who were, according to those reports also, as well as according to the evidence that we got in the recent time from europol, from fbi, part of the organised crime and corruption were taken out from thejudiciary. and what we are now doing as a society is try to find the political consensus to appoint new, clean people with the integrity that would really push forward the reforms when it comes to the rule of law... but why should i believe your assurances when just a couple of months ago, it was revealed that organised criminals had dug a tunnel from an apartment building right into the high court, which one can only assume they were using to get important documents out of the high court and into their own possession? right, and i think that's exactly why we need now political consensus in the country, which i think is going to happen by the end of the year, which will lead

to the appointment of a number of people with integrity, clean people, who are going to make sure that ourjudiciary never again is in the state as it used to be a few years ago. so that's why i'm in politics. and, you know, everything basically depends on a political change that happened in the country... it does, and you're head of state, you are the president, but you can't necessarily ensure that a new, clean government is formed because your political associate in your party, the europe now party, is trying to form a government. he's been trying for many weeks. and it is frankly a real mess. well... you don't have a government right now. well, i think that the government...will happen next week, which is good news. and i think that the prime minister—designate, so the future prime minister, is the person who fully shares all the values that i share as well. so he is a pro—euro—atlantic person, well—educated in the west, and the person who is really pushing

hard for the rule of law as well as economic convergence of montenegro. this is why both him and myself have returned back to montenegro and have entered the country's politics, really with this hope that montenegro uses its potential, its full potential, and becomes the member of the eu, as i said, within the next five years. interesting you use that phrase "euro—atlantic" to describe your colleague and your prime minister. some people characterised your presidential election victory as, in effect, a victory for president vucic in serbia. so, do you look first to serbia or to brussels? well, of course, i think that what is there to say is that i'm very clear about the foreign policy objectives of montenegro from day one, and i see them through the three pillars. so, number one is even more credible nato membership of montenegro, which, as you may know, is a member

of nato since 2017. number two, and this is very important, is a faster eu accession — not the fake one, but a true one. and i think, you know, this is where i am also very pushy when it comes to the reform agenda of montenegro. i think that montenegro should do its own homework as well, but i think that brussels also should understand that the process of the accession is not only a technical process, it's a political and geopolitical process. and number three, and going back to your question, i think that montenegro should have as best as possible relations with all its neighbours, including serbia. as you know, serbia is the biggest economy in the western balkans. it's montenegro�*s biggest tourism market. and what i'm really trying to make as my foreign policy is to establish normalised links between montenegro and serbia, which haven't been the case over the last few years, not only with serbia, but also with kosovo, with bosnia and herzegovina,

with albania, with north macedonia, and, really, you know, promote montenegro as a stable anchor that could also promote stability and prosperity for the rest of the region as well. but, mr president, we know that president vucic of serbia is regarded as an ally, a friend, a trading partner of vladimir putin. and we also know that the united states right now looks at the efforts to form a government in your country, and they worry that pro—serb parties are going to be a part of the ruling coalition. now, you are the president, you look at the efforts to form a government. are you worried that there is going to be a very strong pro—serb element in the government in montenegro? i mean, listen, iwas very clear and, you know, exactly the things that i said with respect to the foreign policy of montenegro, i'm expecting those things to be implemented by the next government. and i'm absolutely sure that the prime minister—designate,

so the future prime minister, will be on the same path and with the same track record as the one that i'm now describing. why do you think the americans are so worried, then? to quote the us ambassador in podgorica, judy reinke, she said... just a week or two ago, she said, "we are very concerned over reports that the new governing coalition may contain parties and leaders who actively oppose" these euro—atlantic values that you talk of. what i can tell you as a fact is that ever since people like myself and mr spajic, the next prime minister, entered the country's politics, the public support for nato membership significantly increased. the public support for the eu accession is at about 80%. so what we are actually seeing by the fact — by de facto — in montenegro is the opposite, that the euro—atlantic vision of montenegro has been increasingly getting the support from the people.

but ijust wonder if you are a little bit frightened of serbia. i mean, what, 30% of your population would probably identify themselves as ethnic serbs. and we also know that the serbs, they can get very angry with you. just to quote the serbian defence minister in august, he talked about his dislike of the fact that you have consistently recognised the independence of kosovo as a nation state. you've recognised the international tribunal�*s verdict that, for example, serbia committed an act of genocide in srebrenica. the serbs hate all of this. and the defence minister said that neighbouring states — such as montenegro — should realise that their position "will cause a harsh reaction, just like in ukraine". are you worried about that kind of language? serbia is the biggest, individually, the biggest economic partner of montenegro, and it's the biggest tourism market for montenegro.

so, you know, you can imagine that we obviously care to have as best as possible links with serbia as a good neighbour. you mean you can't afford to upset them. but, at the same time, what we are really trying very hard is to be the next member of the eu. and this is why i think the story of montenegro becoming the next member of the eu is much bigger than montenegro, because it can really be this positive signal to the rest of the region as well, to the countries of eastern europe, such as ukraine, moldova, even georgia, that the reforms pay off. and this is the story that i'm trying to promote, and this is the story that i am really, you know, on a daily basis, fighting for montenegro, because it makes sense within the next few years to become a member of the eu. and i think that's really important to understand, also in brussels, as well as in a number of other european capitals. regional tensions do impact your relatively small nation in the balkans. in recent months, we've seen very heightened tension

between kosovo and serbia. there have been acts of violence in northern kosovo, which the kosovan government blames directly on meddling by aleksandar vucic�*s government, a charge that he denies. but nonetheless, the violence has been serious. there is talk of the possibility of an explosion of violence in kosovo. when it comes down to it, whose side are you on? who do you believe is causing this? is it serbian meddling and interference, or has mr kurti failed to recognise the rights of serbs in kosovo? well, i mean, from the very day one, i was very clear about it. we are very much supportive of the normalisation of the links, of the relationship between serbia and kosovo. and we are supportive of the dialogue between belgrade and pristina, under the umbrella of the european union. we are very worried that, you know, of everything that happened, especially in the recent months. as a tourism—driven economy, montenegro wants to live

in a neighbourhood which is prosperous and peaceful. i think that we are doing our best to promote peace and to promote security in the rest of the region. montenegro is present through the kfor in kosovo, and i'm speaking both with president vucic, as well as the president of kosovo, mrs 0smani. i'm very happy that both of them came to podgorica for the day of my inauguration. and i think that montenegro can indeed be this sort of mediator and help the two countries to sort out not the recent dispute that they are having, but, really, you know, a centuries—long... indeed, it's long running. in your opinion, how close are we right now to a new round of significant violence, maybe even a new balkan war?

well, i think that, you know, obviously, the tensions are there. i don't think that... you know, i think that all the sides should really, you know, do their best to de—escalate things. and i'm glad to see that both serbia as well as kosovo over the few last days have done so. you know, i don't really worry that there can be another war in the balkans because that would really be a tragic thing. and montenegro is doing everything we can to obviously avoid that scenario. i think that by being a member of nato ever since 2017, montenegro also has promoted security and prosperity in the region of the western balkans. however, i think that, you know, both sides really need to go back to the table, to the dialogue, which is, as you know, being done through the umbrella

of the european union. and i think that's the way forward. so you hope that that bilateral relationship can be improved. but there's a broader geopolitical horizon here which involves moscow and involves vladimir putin, because there is doubtless... there is concern in the west that russia is meddling and seeking destabilisation in the balkans. do you believe that russia right now is meddling in the politics of montenegro? i mean, montenegro is a member of nato over the last six years. and, you know, even if russia is trying to do that, i think now, with the membership within nato, it's much more difficult to do so. are you sure about that? look at the reporting from the eu, which specifically, even in the last year, has expressed concern about the vulnerability of montenegro to russian intelligence and cyber activity. montenegro was called upon by the eu to make significant systematic efforts

to identify and dismantle disinformation factories, which clearly the implication was were being run from russia. i think that, you know, there are obviously challenges and perhaps even the biggest one are within the cyber world. i think we are getting, as a country, support and help from a number of partners and countries with whom we are aligned. just to be clear, it was before you took office as president, but in late august of 2022, there was a very serious cyber attack. exactly. yeah. the defence minister said it was a sophisticated attack, definitely not carried out by individuals. your intelligence agencies believed that the finger of blame could be pointed at russia. do you believe that could happen again? are you still vulnerable? i think that we are now less vulnerable than we used to be a few years ago, and also as a result of the support that we are getting from nato allies. as a result of the support

that we are, for instance, currently getting from france and slovenia, we are developing a cybersecurity centre in montenegro with the mentioned support. and i think that all of those actions are making montenegro much more resilient towards the aspects that you mentioned. i think there are challenges, as there are challenges in a number of other countries of the world. well, there are also challenges for you when it comes to russia because you still have a significant economic reliance on russia. i know you have supported eu sanctions against russia, but look at the facts. 7,410 work permits were issued to russians in montenegro this year. russia, in terms of its private investments in montenegro, i think runs very close to serbia as the biggest investor in montenegro this year, according to the central bank. so despite your public sort of adherence to sanctions, the reality is, you're tied

to the russian economy. well, i mean, you know, much less so than we used to be a few years ago. so, for instance, when i became an economy minister, which was the role that i was doing before i became the president, russian tourists accounted for about 25% of our overall tourism market. however, today, they're accounting only for about 10%. so we have done a lot of diversifying away from russia over the last few years. but one thing that i really want to stress out, russia is a big country and there is a big difference between russia and the regime in moscow, right? and i'm sure that there are a number of russians in london. i lived in london. i know that there are many of them here as well. but, you know, we should not reallyjudge the whole country and the whole society. nonetheless, you want to be an eu member state and the eu is intent on economically isolating russia. so the question is,

are you or are you not? well, of course that we are. you know, from the very day one, we are imposing all the sanctions towards russia in the same way as the eu is doing. let me also remind you that over the last ten years, montenegro has been fully aligning its foreign security policy with the one of the eu. ah. well, that's an interesting point, too. fully aligning. fully aligning? because montenegro, of all countries in europe, has been absolutely enthusiastic about tying itself to china's belt and road initiative. i mean, you, in your most signature public investment of recent years, took a billion—dollars—worth of chinese investment, with the chinese building your extravagant highway that only runs for a1km, but cost a billion dollars. why are you making those strategic choices? right. well, you know, that's a question for the previous government. and, you know, ithink one of the flaws of the previous government was going into big,

massive construction projects without a clear public procurement, you know, tendering and everything else, that should have made all those projects a bit more transparent. almost bankrupting the country. and you're an economist. you know how much damage it did. yeah, absolutely. but the thing is, apparently the country is still considering taking another chinese investment to build another road. i mean, have you not learned the lessons? not really. what we are now trying to do is, you know, the chinese have indeed financed and constructed a big piece of the road in montenegro, which was signed by the previous government in 2015. what the new government, you know, the one where i also took part in, did do is diversify away from the financing. and actually, even today when i'm in london, i'm going to be speaking to institutions such as the ebrd... the european bank for reconstruction and development. ..for the financing of the next stages of the highway.

to be clear, then, you are very clearly sending a message — we are cutting our economic ties with china. is that your message? i mean, listen, you know, i think that "cutting" is too heavy a word. i think that montenegro, at the end of the day, is a small, open economy, and we shouldn't really be cutting ties with any countries in the world. what i am fighting for are the clear tendering processes in which the best and the brightest at the end win the tenders, and that's exactly why i think that things should be done in this way. so if the chinese are the ones who provide the best offer, i think it's fine if they get the deal as well. what ultimately matters are the processes and the way you publicly tender, you know, big construction deals.

and i think, you know, that's exactly the value that i'm promoting here. i think that... mr president... just... with another sentence... i think it's very important to bring on the european support when it comes to the construction of the highways in montenegro because of very cheap loans that are there, especially from the ebrd, from the eib, from other different european institutions. i understand you are seeking to now finance from within europe. i understand that. just a last question, because we must end. it's about going back to the eu. it's about the reality of where you are right now. europe's really very preoccupied with the ukraine war. and as a result, there is talk of speeding ukraine's membership of the european union. right. you've been a candidate member for more than a decade. how would you feel if ukraine were given a fast track to eu membership, and montenegro sat on the sidelines? we were very happy

with ukraine getting a candidacy status last year. and i think that, you know, if there is even one positive thing in this tragedy of the russian aggression on ukraine is that brussels finally got a wake—up call. and i think that, you know, the accession process really became a bit more political and geopolitical. i think that the future is european, both for montenegro and for ukraine. and i think that currently montenegro is by far the frontrunner in comparison to all other candidate countries because of a number of things that i have already mentioned. president milatovic, we have to end there, but i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you very much.

hello, there. let's take a look at the weather for the week ahead — what's coming up with our weather over the next ten days or so. on tuesday, we saw some sunshine but also some outbreaks of rain, and certainly some more wet weather to come in the forecast through the rest of this week and into next week. you can see the jet stream running to the south of us, allowing areas of low pressure to work in off the atlantic with their associated fronts, bringing showery outbreaks of rain that will be heavy and persistent at times. and you can see on the rainfall accumulation chart there, some of that wet weather really totting up through parts of eastern scotland and across parts of south wales and south—west england as well. so the potential for some further issues with flooding in the coming days. on wednesday, the overnight rain will clear first thing away from the south—east, then some sunshine through the midlands and wales, extending its way towards east anglia. cloudier conditions across the north of england,

certainly through scotland, with outbreaks of rain pushing in through angus and aberdeenshire, coming in off the north sea there. variable cloud and some brightness for northern ireland. but through wednesday evening and night, a weatherfront bringing outbreaks of rain here, in towards parts of wales and towards cumbria, in towards the midlands by the end of the night. so we're left with that band of rain from around sort of liverpool to london as we start the day on thursday. so to thursday. and once again it is unsettled. we've got that broad area of low pressure out to our west, bringing weather fronts and rain our way, and winds just beginning to strengthen on its southern flank as well. so through thursday, we've got the overnight rain pushing towards the north—east and then becoming confined to the north—east of england, eastern scotland as well, where it will be cloudy. elsewhere, through much of the midlands, east anglia and in towards wales, drier with some sunshine. hefty downpours likely, though, through parts of the south—east of england. and that low pressure still with us on friday with further weather fronts, further outbreaks of rain.

in between them there will be some brighter skies. but that wet weather unwelcome, certainly in the areas that we've had so much flooding in recent days. so through the course of friday, you can see we've got showery outbreaks of rain. some of those showers will penetrate inland, but at times clumping together to give a longer spell of wet weather. temperatures around nine degrees in shetland to the mid—teens towards the channel islands. into the weekend, you can see the jet stream just changing shape somewhat, allowing this area of low pressure to scoot northwards as we head through towards sunday. so the potential for some very heavy rain once again across eastern scotland. on saturday, though, it's an unsettled picture. there'll be some sunshine. there'll also be some showers or longer spells of rain. a keen east wind bringing some wet weather in towards eastern scotland. once again, drier in the west, a mixture of conditions through northern ireland with some brighter skies and a rash of showers. and then as we head in towards sunday, you remember thatjet stream working its way northwards, allowing this system to work northwards as well. and with the winds coming

in from the north, that rain could well become stagnated through central and eastern scotland. that could cause some issues. it's certainly one to watch. elsewhere it's unsettled. with the cold winds coming in the north, temperatures somewhat struggling, eight degrees there in lerwick. and into next week, well, whilst that low pressure departs towards scandinavia, actually, yeah, high pressure is nearby but that jet stream just keeps on feeding in areas of low pressure to our shores once again. so it remains unsettled into this coming weekend and into the start of next week, too, with showers or longer spells of rain at times, which are likely to persist. that's the forecast for now.

live from london, this is bbc news. there are growing calls for a humanitarian pause on hostilities in gaza, so that aid can be let in. 42 states in the us are suing facebook and instagram's parent company meta for "addictive features aimed at kids and teens". and astronomers in the uk have made the biggest ever computer model showing the evolution of the universe, all the way from the big bang to the present day. hello, i'm sally bundock. there are growing calls

for a humanitarian pause in the fighting between israel and hamas so that adequate aid can be let into gaza. israel has allowed food, water and medicine into the territory, but isn't allowing fuel supplies, over fears they'll end up in the hands of hamas. the us secretary of state, antony blinken, has proposed a temporary lull in hostilities. the war between israel and hamas is having repercussions in every corner of this volatile region. 0ur international editor jeremy bowen sent this report, and a warning, it contains some distressing images. after the doctors had examined yocheved lifschitz, she came out of the hospital in tel aviv saying she went through hell in gaza, from the moment hamas took her as a hostage. translation: l was laying - on a motorcycle, my body on one side and my legs on the other,

and the hamas men beat me on the way.