,of of his material is e-mail. all of this material is directly remic _ e-mail. all of this material is directly remic relevant, - e-mail. all of this material is directly remic relevant, to i e-mail. all of this material is l directly remic relevant, to the pandemic, _ directly remic relevant, to the pandemic, whether— directly remic relevant, to the pandemic, whether it- directly remic relevant, to the pandemic, whether it is- directly remic relevant, to the pandemic, whether it is to - directly remic relevant, to the pandemic, whether it is to do. directly remic relevant, to the . pandemic, whether it is to do with his business— pandemic, whether it is to do with his business in— pandemic, whether it is to do with his business in parliament, - pandemic, whether it is to do with his business in parliament, or- his business in parliament, or number— his business in parliament, or number ten _ his business in parliament, or number ten or— his business in parliament, or number ten or how— his business in parliament, or number ten or how the - his business in parliament, or- number ten or how the government is responding, _ number ten or how the government is responding, it's— number ten or how the government is responding, it's all— number ten or how the government is responding, it's all to _ number ten or how the government is responding, it's all to do _ number ten or how the government is responding, it's all to do with - responding, it's all to do with covid, — responding, it's all to do with covid, isn't_ responding, it's all to do with covid, isn't it? _ responding, it's all to do with covid, isn't it? correct? - responding, it's all to do with covid, isn't it? correct? yes. | responding, it's all to do with - covid, isn't it? correct? yes. could we have _ covid, isn't it? correct? yes. could we have page — covid, isn't it? correct? yes. could we have page 114. _ covid, isn't it? correct? yes. could we have page 114, please? - covid, isn't it? correct? yes. could we have page 114, please? on - covid, isn't it? correct? yes. could we have page 114, please? on thel we have page 114, please? on the 15th of— we have page 114, please? on the 15th of april. _ we have page 114, please? on the 15th of april, 2021, _ we have page 114, please? on the 15th of april, 2021, so— we have page 114, please? on the 15th of april, 2021, sojust - we have page 114, please? on the 15th of april, 2021, so just a - 15th of april, 2021, so just a matter— 15th of april, 2021, so just a matter of— 15th of april, 2021, so just a matter of a _ 15th of april, 2021, so just a matter of a few _ 15th of april, 2021, so just a matter of a few weeks - 15th of april, 2021, so just a | matter of a few weeks before 15th of april, 2021, so just a - matter of a few weeks before mr johnson — matter of a few weeks before mr johnson announced _ matter of a few weeks before mr johnson announced the - matter of a few weeks before mr johnson announced the public. matter of a few weeks before mr - johnson announced the public inquiry to parliament. — johnson announced the public inquiry to parliament, you _ johnson announced the public inquiry to parliament, you turned _ johnson announced the public inquiry to parliament, you turned on- johnson announced the public inquiry to parliament, you turned on the - to parliament, you turned on the disappearing _ to parliament, you turned on the disappearing message _ to parliament, you turned on the disappearing message function l to parliament, you turned on the| disappearing message function in this whatsapp _ disappearing message function in this whatsapp group. _ disappearing message function in this whatsapp group. new- disappearing message function in - this whatsapp group. new messages will disappear — this whatsapp group. new messages will disappear from _ this whatsapp group. new messages will disappear from this _ this whatsapp group. new messages will disappear from this chat - this whatsapp group. new messages will disappear from this chat seven . will disappear from this chat seven days after— will disappear from this chat seven days after they _ will disappear from this chat seven days after they are _ will disappear from this chat seven days after they are sent. _ will disappear from this chat seven days after they are sent. and - will disappear from this chat seven days after they are sent. and if - will disappear from this chat seven days after they are sent. and if we j days after they are sent. and if we look days after they are sent. and if we took at _ days after they are sent. and if we took at the — days after they are sent. and if we look at the bottom _ days after they are sent. and if we look at the bottom of— days after they are sent. and if we look at the bottom of the -

days after they are sent. and if we look at the bottom of the page, i look at the bottom of the page, august— look at the bottom of the page, august 2021, _ look at the bottom of the page, august 2021, and _ look at the bottom of the page, august 2021, and that - look at the bottom of the page, august 2021, and that over - look at the bottom of the page, august 2021, and that over the i look at the bottom of the page, - august 2021, and that over the page 2115, it _ august 2021, and that over the page 2115, it is _ august 2021, and that over the page 2115, it is obvious— august 2021, and that over the page 2115, it is obvious from _ august 2021, and that over the page 2115, it is obvious from the - august 2021, and that over the page 2115, it is obvious from the people . 2115, it is obvious from the people whoioined — 2115, it is obvious from the people who joined and _ 2115, it is obvious from the people who joined and left _ 2115, it is obvious from the people who joined and left that _ 2115, it is obvious from the people who joined and left that the - who joined and left that the whatsapp _ who joined and left that the whatsapp group _ who joined and left that the whatsapp group continued. who joined and left that the - whatsapp group continued. until you left on _ whatsapp group continued. until you left on the _ whatsapp group continued. until you left on the 20th— whatsapp group continued. until you left on the 20th of— whatsapp group continued. until you left on the 20th of march _ whatsapp group continued. until you left on the 20th of march 2022,. - whatsapp group continued. until you left on the 20th of march 2022,. so | left on the 20th of march 2022,. so you are _ left on the 20th of march 2022,. so you are plainly— left on the 20th of march 2022,. so you are plainly discussing _ left on the 20th of march 2022,. so you are plainly discussing covid - you are plainly discussing covid related — you are plainly discussing covid related matters _ you are plainly discussing covid related matters in— you are plainly discussing covid related matters in from - you are plainly discussing covid related matters in from when l you are plainly discussing covid . related matters in from when you turned _ related matters in from when you turned the — related matters in from when you turned the disappearing - related matters in from when you turned the disappearing functionl related matters in from when you l turned the disappearing function on two march — turned the disappearing function on two march 2022 _ turned the disappearing function on two march 2022 when _ turned the disappearing function on two march 2022 when you - turned the disappearing function on two march 2022 when you left. - two march 2022 when you left. correct? — two march 2022 when you left. correct? yes. _ two march 2022 when you left. correct? yes. why— two march 2022 when you left. correct? yes. why did - two march 2022 when you left. correct? yes. why did you - two march 2022 when you left. j correct? yes. why did you turn two march 2022 when you left. i correct? yes. why did you turn on the disappearing _ correct? yes. why did you turn on the disappearing message - correct? yes. why did you turn on| the disappearing message function around _ the disappearing message function around the — the disappearing message function around the time _ the disappearing message function around the time that _ the disappearing message function around the time that the _ the disappearing message function around the time that the prime - around the time that the prime minister— around the time that the prime minister announced _ around the time that the prime minister announced a - around the time that the prime minister announced a public. around the time that the prime - minister announced a public inquiry into the _ minister announced a public inquiry into the covid — minister announced a public inquiry into the covid pandemic. _ minister announced a public inquiry into the covid pandemic. ? - minister announced a public inquiry into the covid pandemic. ? [- minister announced a public inquiry into the covid pandemic.— into the covid pandemic. ? i can ruess into the covid pandemic. ? i can uess i into the covid pandemic. ? i can guess i can _ into the covid pandemic. ? i can guess i can speculate _ into the covid pandemic. ? i can guess i can speculate but - into the covid pandemic. ? i can guess i can speculate but i - into the covid pandemic. ? i can i guess i can speculate but i cannot recall exactly why did so. but as i say, my explanation is that this whatsapp group was very different from any other whatsapp group on my phonein

from any other whatsapp group on my phone in that it was essentially funnelling information into the prime minister and out, and all of that was recorded separately in hard copy or an e—mailform, including the prime minister put my comments. so, that flow of information about dating developments was recorded properly on our systems. now, i cannot, i can speculate as to why might have done it. as i say at the start, i kept all my other whatsapp for the relevant period and handed them over. so i don't believe it was intended to prevent the inquiry from having sight of this. it could, for example, be because i was worried that people screen shutting or using some of the exchanges and leaking them. . . some of the exchanges and leaking them. , ., , ., some of the exchanges and leaking them. , ., . , them. these are your closest colleagues — them. these are your closest colleagues and _ them. these are your closest colleagues and you'd - them. these are your closest i colleagues and you'd obviously them. these are your closest - colleagues and you'd obviously been engaging _ colleagues and you'd obviously been engaging with — colleagues and you'd obviously been engaging with them _ colleagues and you'd obviously been engaging with them in _ colleagues and you'd obviously been engaging with them in this - colleagues and you'd obviously beeni engaging with them in this whatsapp .roup engaging with them in this whatsapp group for— engaging with them in this whatsapp group for many— engaging with them in this whatsapp group for many many— engaging with them in this whatsapp group for many many months. - engaging with them in this whatsapp group for many many months. in - engaging with them in this whatsappl group for many many months. in fact, from the _ group for many many months. in fact, from the 16th — group for many many months. in fact, from the 16th of _ group for many many months. in fact, from the 16th of november— group for many many months. in fact, from the 16th of november 2020 - group for many many months. in fact, from the 16th of november 2020 untilj from the 16th of november 2020 until april 2021 _

from the 16th of november 2020 until april 2021. correct? _ from the 16th of november 2020 until april 2021. correct? yes. _ from the 16th of november 2020 until april 2021. correct? yes. there - from the 16th of november 2020 until april 2021. correct? yes. there was. april 2021. correct? yes. there was no change _ april 2021. correct? yes. there was no change in — april 2021. correct? yes. there was no change in their— april 2021. correct? yes. there was no change in their methods - april 2021. correct? yes. there was no change in their methods by- april 2021. correct? yes. there wasi no change in their methods by which e-maits _ no change in their methods by which emails are — no change in their methods by which e—mails are being _ no change in their methods by which e—mails are being sent— no change in their methods by which e—mails are being sent to _ no change in their methods by which e—mails are being sent to the - no change in their methods by which e—mails are being sent to the prime | e—mails are being sent to the prime minister— e—mails are being sent to the prime ministeror— e—mails are being sent to the prime minister or marked _ e—mails are being sent to the prime ministeror marked in— e—mails are being sent to the prime minister or marked in his _ e—mails are being sent to the prime minister or marked in his inbox - e—mails are being sent to the prime minister or marked in his inbox to. minister or marked in his inbox to the prime — minister or marked in his inbox to the prime minister? _ minister or marked in his inbox to the prime minister? so _ minister or marked in his inbox to the prime minister? so it- minister or marked in his inbox to the prime minister? so it wasn't. the prime minister? so it wasn't that it _ the prime minister? so it wasn't that it was — the prime minister? so it wasn't that it was requiring _ the prime minister? so it wasn't that it was requiring you - the prime minister? so it wasn't that it was requiring you to - the prime minister? so it wasn't that it was requiring you to no. that it was requiring you to no longer— that it was requiring you to no longer engage _ that it was requiring you to no longer engage in— that it was requiring you to no longer engage in these - that it was requiring you to no- longer engage in these whatsapp communications. _ longer engage in these whatsapp communications. you _ longer engage in these whatsapp communications. you just - longer engage in these whatsapp communications. you just turned | longer engage in these whatsapp . communications. you just turned on the disappearing _ communications. you just turned on the disappearing function. _ communications. you just turned on the disappearing function.— the disappearing function. correct. but i didn't. _ the disappearing function. correct. but i didn't, again, _ the disappearing function. correct. but i didn't, again, i— the disappearing function. correct. but i didn't, again, i think- the disappearing function. correct. but i didn't, again, i think i - the disappearing function. correct. but i didn't, again, ithinki can - but i didn't, again, i think i can see what you're pushing at, but i didn't put disappearing function on any of my other whatsapp. the rationale for doing this is unclear. i can't remember that far out. but the updates for the whatsapp group was based on a formal sort of flow of paperwork, and so arguably, all of paperwork, and so arguably, all of that material is still available to the inquiry.

of that material is still available to the inquiry-— of that material is still available totheinuui. _ ., .,, to the inquiry. this whatsapp group is not available _ to the inquiry. this whatsapp group is not available because _ to the inquiry. this whatsapp group is not available because the - is not available because the disappearing _ is not available because the disappearing function- is not available because the disappearing function was l is not available because the - disappearing function was turned on by you _ disappearing function was turned on by you in— disappearing function was turned on by you in april— disappearing function was turned on by you in april 2021. _ disappearing function was turned on by you in april 2021. correct. - disappearing function was turned on by you in april 2021. correct. could i by you in april 2021. correct. could we now— by you in april 2021. correct. could we now then — by you in april 2021. correct. could we now then look _ by you in april 2021. correct. could we now then look please _ by you in april 2021. correct. could we now then look please for - by you in april 2021. correct. could we now then look please for a - by you in april 2021. correct. could - we now then look please for a moment at the _ we now then look please for a moment at the structure — we now then look please for a moment at the structure at _ we now then look please for a moment at the structure at number— we now then look please for a moment at the structure at number ten - we now then look please for a moment at the structure at number ten and - at the structure at number ten and your role? — at the structure at number ten and your role? you _ at the structure at number ten and your role? you are _ at the structure at number ten and your role? you are in _ at the structure at number ten and your role? you are in essence - at the structure at number ten and your role? you are in essence the i your role? you are in essence the director-generat— your role? you are in essence the director—general of— your role? you are in essence the director—general of downing - your role? you are in essence the . director—general of downing street, where _ director—general of downing street, where you _ director—general of downing street, where you not? _ director—general of downing street, where you not? essentially - director—general of downing street, where you not? essentially the - director—general of downing street, | where you not? essentially the head of the _ where you not? essentially the head of the private — where you not? essentially the head of the private office _ where you not? essentially the head of the private office and _ of the private office and responsible _ of the private office and responsible for- of the private office and responsible for the - of the private office and - responsible for the management of the private office and _ responsible for the management of number— responsible for the management of number ten — responsible for the management of number ten as— responsible for the management of number ten as a _ responsible for the management of number ten as a corporate - responsible for the management of number ten as a corporate entity. i number ten as a corporate entity. correct. _ number ten as a corporate entity. correct. woutd _ number ten as a corporate entity. correct, would it— number ten as a corporate entity. correct, would it be _ number ten as a corporate entity. correct, would it be helpful- number ten as a corporate entity. correct, would it be helpful if- number ten as a corporate entity. correct, would it be helpful if i. correct, would it be helpful if i explain the different elements in number ten and explained how number ten worked in its straggly strange hybrid political civil service way? would you mind terribly if ijust ask the — would you mind terribly if ijust ask the questions? _ would you mind terribly if ijust ask the questions? if _ would you mind terribly if ijust ask the questions? if you - would you mind terribly if ijust ask the questions? if you feel. would you mind terribly if ijust i ask the questions? if you feel that there _ ask the questions? if you feel that there is— ask the questions? if you feel that there is evidence _ ask the questions? if you feel that there is evidence that _ ask the questions? if you feel that there is evidence that you -

ask the questions? if you feel that there is evidence that you wish - ask the questions? if you feel that there is evidence that you wish to| there is evidence that you wish to rive there is evidence that you wish to give about— there is evidence that you wish to give about the _ there is evidence that you wish to give about the role _ there is evidence that you wish to give about the role of— there is evidence that you wish to give about the role of number- there is evidence that you wish to give about the role of number 10 i give about the role of number 10 downing — give about the role of number 10 downing street, _ give about the role of number 10 downing street, then— give about the role of number 10 downing street, then you - give about the role of number 10 downing street, then you can. give about the role of number 10 - downing street, then you can answer appropriatety~ — downing street, then you can answer appropriately. in— downing street, then you can answer appropriately. in downing _ downing street, then you can answer appropriately. in downing street, - appropriately. in downing street, there _ appropriately. in downing street, there were — appropriately. in downing street, there were obviously _ appropriately. in downing street, there were obviously a _ appropriately. in downing street, there were obviously a number. appropriately. in downing street, j there were obviously a number of very important _ there were obviously a number of very important but _ there were obviously a number of very important but different - there were obviously a number of . very important but different moving parts, _ very important but different moving parts. yourself— very important but different moving parts. yourself as _ very important but different moving parts, yourself as the _ very important but different moving parts, yourself as the principal - parts, yourself as the principal private — parts, yourself as the principal private secretary, _ parts, yourself as the principal private secretary, the - parts, yourself as the principal private secretary, the civil- parts, yourself as the principal. private secretary, the civil service etement, — private secretary, the civil service element, there _ private secretary, the civil service element, there are _ private secretary, the civil service element, there are other- private secretary, the civil service element, there are other privatel element, there are other private secretaries, _ element, there are other private secretaries, there _ element, there are other private secretaries, there is— element, there are other private secretaries, there is the - element, there are other private secretaries, there is the cabinet| secretaries, there is the cabinet secretary— secretaries, there is the cabinet secretary who _ secretaries, there is the cabinet secretary who have _ secretaries, there is the cabinet secretary who have courses - secretaries, there is the cabinet secretary who have courses as l secretaries, there is the cabinetj secretary who have courses as it says _ secretary who have courses as it says on — secretary who have courses as it says on the _ secretary who have courses as it says on the tin, _ secretary who have courses as it says on the tin, secretary- secretary who have courses as it says on the tin, secretary to - secretary who have courses as it says on the tin, secretary to the j says on the tin, secretary to the cabinet, — says on the tin, secretary to the cabinet, a — says on the tin, secretary to the cabinet, a member— says on the tin, secretary to the cabinet, a member of— says on the tin, secretary to the cabinet, a member of the - says on the tin, secretary to the cabinet, a member of the civil. cabinet, a member of the civil service, — cabinet, a member of the civil service, but— cabinet, a member of the civil service, but also _ cabinet, a member of the civil service, but also advises - cabinet, a member of the civil service, but also advises to i cabinet, a member of the civill service, but also advises to the prime — service, but also advises to the prime minister— service, but also advises to the prime minister who— service, but also advises to the prime minister who were - service, but also advises to the prime minister who were not. prime minister who were not themselves— prime minister who were not themselves civil— prime minister who were not themselves civil servants. is| prime minister who were not - themselves civil servants. is that correct? — themselves civil servants. is that correct? correct. _ themselves civil servants. is that correct? correct. and _ themselves civil servants. is that correct? correct. and they- themselves civil servants. is that . correct? correct. and they included mr dominic— correct? correct. and they included mr dominic cummings? _ correct? correct. and they included mr dominic cummings? correct. i correct? correct. and they included mr dominic cummings? correct. to what _ mr dominic cummings? correct. to what extent, — mr dominic cummings? correct. to what extent, we _ mr dominic cummings? correct. to what extent, we use _ mr dominic cummings? correct. to what extent, we use the _ mr dominic cummings? correct. to what extent, we use the head - mr dominic cummings? correct. to what extent, we use the head of. mr dominic cummings? correct. tol what extent, we use the head of the private _ what extent, we use the head of the private office. — what extent, we use the head of the private office, the _ what extent, we use the head of the private office, the principal- private office, the principal private _ private office, the principal private secretary, - private office, the principal. private secretary, responsible private office, the principal- private secretary, responsible for keeping — private secretary, responsible for keeping the — private secretary, responsible for keeping the prime _ private secretary, responsible for keeping the prime minister- private secretary, responsible for- keeping the prime minister informed as to what _ keeping the prime minister informed as to what was — keeping the prime minister informed as to what was going _ keeping the prime minister informed as to what was going on? _ keeping the prime minister informed as to what was going on? was - keeping the prime minister informed as to what was going on? was it - keeping the prime minister informed as to what was going on? was it a i as to what was going on? was it a function _ as to what was going on? was it a function that — as to what was going on? was it a function that you _ as to what was going on? was it a function that you exclusively- as to what was going on? was it a | function that you exclusively held, or was— function that you exclusively held, or was it _ function that you exclusively held,

or was it a — function that you exclusively held, or was it a function _ function that you exclusively held, or was it a function held _ function that you exclusively held, or was it a function held alongside j or was it a function held alongside other— or was it a function held alongside other civil— or was it a function held alongside other civil servants, _ or was it a function held alongside other civil servants, was _ or was it a function held alongside other civil servants, was it - or was it a function held alongside other civil servants, was it a - other civil servants, was it a divided _ other civil servants, was it a divided function. _ other civil servants, was it a divided function.— other civil servants, was it a divided function. the role of the rivate divided function. the role of the private office, _ divided function. the role of the private office, which _ divided function. the role of the private office, which is - divided function. the role of the private office, which is a - divided function. the role of the private office, which is a team i divided function. the role of the | private office, which is a team of about 20 people, it essentially manages the prime minister's dated a professional existence. its role is to manage the flow of papers between the government machine and the prime minister, to organise the meetings, which people are requesting and trying to put those in the diary at the right time, right period of time and all of those sorts of issues. so, it is server running the professional existence of the prime minister and linking back into the government machine, both in the cabinet office where the cabinet secretary is the lead official, and out into departments. so it is acting, as it were, as connective

tissue between the government machine and the prime minister. mas machine and the prime minister. was there anybody higher than you in terms _ there anybody higher than you in terms of— there anybody higher than you in terms of civil— there anybody higher than you in terms of civil service _ there anybody higher than you in . terms of civil service appointment. did you _ terms of civil service appointment. did you answer? _ terms of civil service appointment. did you answer? i _ terms of civil service appointment. did you answer?— did you answer? i am the senior tracedian did you answer? i am the senior tragedian downing _ did you answer? i am the senior tragedian downing street, - did you answer? i am the senior tragedian downing street, but i did you answer? i am the senior- tragedian downing street, but mark semel and simon case, in downing street the whole time. so, there is a slightly fluid interplay between the cabinet secretary and downing street. n the cabinet secretary and downing street. ~' , ., the cabinet secretary and downing street. ,, , ., ., ., street. i think you attended all the im ortant street. i think you attended all the important meetings. _ street. i think you attended all the important meetings. into - street. i think you attended all the important meetings. into those . street. i think you attended all the i important meetings. into those areas of policy— important meetings. into those areas of policy for _ important meetings. into those areas of policy for which _ important meetings. into those areas of policy for which you _ important meetings. into those areas of policy for which you are _ of policy for which you are responsible. _ of policy for which you are responsible. is— of policy for which you are responsible. is that - of policy for which you are . responsible. is that because of policy for which you are - responsible. is that because there were _ responsible. is that because there were areas— responsible. is that because there were areas of— responsible. is that because there were areas of policy— responsible. is that because there were areas of policy that - responsible. is that because there were areas of policy that you - were areas of policy that you pa rticuta rty _ were areas of policy that you particularly focused - were areas of policy that you particularly focused on, - were areas of policy that you particularly focused on, as l were areas of policy that you - particularly focused on, as opposed to your— particularly focused on, as opposed to your other— particularly focused on, as opposed to your other private _ particularly focused on, as opposed to your other private secretaries, . to your other private secretaries, the other— to your other private secretaries, the other private _ to your other private secretaries, the other private secretaries - to your other private secretaries, the other private secretaries in. the other private secretaries in downing — the other private secretaries in

downing street? _ the other private secretaries in downing street? i— the other private secretaries in downing street?— the other private secretaries in downin: street? �* ., , ., downing street? i didn't really have a core policy — downing street? i didn't really have a core policy responsibility. - downing street? i didn't really have a core policy responsibility. so, - a core policy responsibility. so, different private secretaries manage their relationship differently. some principal private secretaries would have private policy responsibility, but i only had some of the most sensitive intelligence issues which did not go to other people. and you have a team of private secretaries who are covering each of the policy areas. forthe who are covering each of the policy areas. for the purposes of covid, you had imran chaffee who you are seeing after me, and his role was covering public services, so he would cover all public policy issues in his area, and would be the person managing the flow of papers in that area, managing updates, keeping the prime minister abreast of things. i had a slightly broader remit, where i was essentially leading the

private office as a collective entity, managing the relationship with the cabinet office. i also did a number of more bespoke things like managing the relationship with the palace, and i also oversaw the overall administration of the building. in their covid period that becomes much more significant. sol had a wide set of responsibilities and look across the full set of policy issues, but the individual private secretaries who are each individually talented and tend to have a background in the issues they're working on, whether people leading the issue within downing street and basically acting as that connective tissue, even if i was then in some of the meetings. the material shows _ then in some of the meetings. the material shows that you deflated covid _ material shows that you deflated covid at — material shows that you deflated covid at great _ material shows that you deflated covid at great length _ material shows that you deflated covid at great length in - material shows that you deflated covid at great length in the - covid at great length in the whatsapp _ covid at great length in the whatsapp groups - covid at great length in the whatsapp groups to - covid at great length in the whatsapp groups to which i covid at great length in the i whatsapp groups to which you remember, _ whatsapp groups to which you remember, that— whatsapp groups to which you remember, that you _ whatsapp groups to which you remember, that you attendedl whatsapp groups to which you i remember, that you attended a whatsapp groups to which you - remember, that you attended a huge number_ remember, that you attended a huge number of— remember, that you attended a huge number of meetings _ remember, that you attended a huge number of meetings with _ remember, that you attended a huge number of meetings with the -

remember, that you attended a huge number of meetings with the prime i number of meetings with the prime minister_ number of meetings with the prime minister in — number of meetings with the prime minister in relation _ number of meetings with the prime minister in relation to _ number of meetings with the prime minister in relation to covid. - number of meetings with the prime minister in relation to covid. you i minister in relation to covid. you were _ minister in relation to covid. you were privy— minister in relation to covid. you were privy to _ minister in relation to covid. you were privy to the _ minister in relation to covid. you were privy to the debates - minister in relation to covid. you were privy to the debates before| were privy to the debates before cobra, _ were privy to the debates before cobra, the — were privy to the debates before cobra, the debating _ were privy to the debates before cobra, the debating cabinet - were privy to the debates before i cobra, the debating cabinet about covid-19. — cobra, the debating cabinet about covid-19. you _ cobra, the debating cabinet about covid—19, you essentially- cobra, the debating cabinet about covid—19, you essentially tracked i covid—19, you essentially tracked what _ covid—19, you essentially tracked what was — covid—19, you essentially tracked what was going _ covid—19, you essentially tracked what was going on, _ covid—19, you essentially tracked what was going on, did _ covid—19, you essentially tracked what was going on, did you - covid—19, you essentially tracked what was going on, did you not? | covid—19, you essentially tracked . what was going on, did you not? in what was going on, did you not? reality, i think others were much more into the detail of exactly what was happening on covid—19, and i was was happening on covid—i9, and i was indeed present for many of the discussions, but that was to get a broad overview of what was going on. the decision—making processes, the detail of what is happening was being tracked in much more detail by stuart and being tracked in much more detail by stuartand imran. being tracked in much more detail by stuart and imran. you being tracked in much more detail by stuart and imran.— stuart and imran. you must have debated the _ stuart and imran. you must have debated the vital _ stuart and imran. you must have debated the vital decisions - stuart and imran. you must have debated the vital decisions that l debated the vital decisions that were _ debated the vital decisions that were being _ debated the vital decisions that were being taken _ debated the vital decisions that were being taken over- debated the vital decisions that were being taken over the - debated the vital decisions that i were being taken over the course debated the vital decisions that - were being taken over the course of their covid — were being taken over the course of their covid pandemic— were being taken over the course of their covid pandemic with _ were being taken over the course of their covid pandemic with the - were being taken over the course ofi their covid pandemic with the prime mirrister— their covid pandemic with the prime minister and — their covid pandemic with the prime ministerand his— their covid pandemic with the prime minister and his advisers. _ their covid pandemic with the prime minister and his advisers. you - their covid pandemic with the prime minister and his advisers. you are l minister and his advisers. you are him principal— minister and his advisers. you are him principal private _ minister and his advisers. you are him principal private signatory, i him principal private signatory, where — him principal private signatory, where you _ him principal private signatory, where you not? _ him principal private signatory, where you not? the _ him principal private signatory, where you not?— where you not? the closest decisions. _ where you not? the closest

decisions, it _ where you not? the closest decisions, it seems - where you not? the closest decisions, it seems to - where you not? the closest decisions, it seems to me | where you not? the closest i decisions, it seems to me and where you not? the closest - decisions, it seems to me and covid you had world experts who weren't advising on how to handle certain issues. myjob was to make sure that the private office machine was underpinning or making sure that the decisions which needed to go to the prime minister, the meetings, and all the arrangements around the processes were there to enable the prime minister to get the best possible advice from the real experts in covid—i9, and to fear from his ministers or other political advisers, some of the political advisers, some of the political dynamics around those decisions. i was not, political dynamics around those decisions. iwas not, if political dynamics around those decisions. i was not, if that is what you were suggesting there to give the prime minister advice on covid and would have been very uncomfortable to be someone who was taking a position against the expert advice of chris whitty or patrick ballance saw some of the other figures. so it is a very... you have a lot of key players who are providing advice to the prime

minister. the role of the private office, very often, is around choreography and making sure the right people are there at the right time. managing the processes around the prime minister, so preparing for press conferences and parliamentary statements. it is the organisational underpinning for what is going on, but the actual advice to the prime minister came from others. you send notes to the — minister came from others. you send notes to the prime _ minister came from others. you send notes to the prime minister- minister came from others. you send notes to the prime minister which - notes to the prime minister which were _ notes to the prime minister which were put— notes to the prime minister which were put into _ notes to the prime minister which were put into his— notes to the prime minister which were put into his red _ notes to the prime minister which were put into his red box- notes to the prime minister which were put into his red box can - were put into his red box can concerning _ were put into his red box can concerning developments - were put into his red box can concerning developments ini were put into his red box can - concerning developments in relation to the _ concerning developments in relation to the covid-i9_ concerning developments in relation to the covid—19 pandemic, _ concerning developments in relation to the covid—19 pandemic, did - concerning developments in relation to the covid—19 pandemic, did you . to the covid—19 pandemic, did you not? _ to the covid—19 pandemic, did you not? correct _ to the covid—19 pandemic, did you not? correct. did _ to the covid—19 pandemic, did you not? correct. did you _ to the covid—19 pandemic, did you not? correct. did you send - to the covid—19 pandemic, did youl not? correct. did you send e—mails to the _ not? correct. did you send e—mails to the prime — not? correct. did you send e—mails to the prime minister— not? correct. did you send e—mails to the prime minister and - to the prime minister and others expressing — to the prime minister and others expressing views— to the prime minister and others expressing views about - to the prime minister and others expressing views about what - to the prime minister and others. expressing views about what should be done _ expressing views about what should be done about— expressing views about what should be done about the _ expressing views about what should be done about the many— expressing views about what should be done about the many pressing. expressing views about what should be done about the many pressing in shoes— be done about the many pressing in shoes to _ be done about the many pressing in shoes to do — be done about the many pressing in shoes to do with _ be done about the many pressing in shoes to do with the _ be done about the many pressing in shoes to do with the pandemic? - be done about the many pressing in shoes to do with the pandemic? i. shoes to do with the pandemic? [ don't shoes to do with the pandemic? don't remember giving advice shoes to do with the pandemic?” don't remember giving advice on shoes to do with the pandemic?- don't remember giving advice on the sow substance of covid—i9. the role is to enable the flow of information from the department of from the cabinet office or from other parts

of the cabinet system to the prime minister and out again to ensure that that moves quickly and to make sure that to some extent there is an efficient process for managing that. in terms of expressing my views on covid, i don't believe that i did on a regular basis, and i certainly would not have done so formally. i think what we're doing, and i imagine wanting to come back to the different phases in the pandemic, but a lot of what i was doing in the crisis phase is making sure that the private secretaries are structured and able to pick up the various strands of activity coming out of meetings, to drive that through the system and to bring it back to the prime minister and two others for meetings. prime minister and two others for meetinus. . ,, . . , . meetings. imran shafi was a private secretary and _ meetings. imran shafi was a private secretary and you — meetings. imran shafi was a private secretary and you were _ meetings. imran shafi was a private secretary and you were his - meetings. imran shafi was a private secretary and you were his line - secretary and you were his line manager _ secretary and you were his line manager he _ secretary and you were his line manager he of— secretary and you were his line manager. he of course - secretary and you were his line manager. he of course gave i manager. he of course gave his advice — manager. he of course gave his advice to— manager. he of course gave his advice to the _ manager. he of course gave his advice to the prime _ manager. he of course gave his

advice to the prime minister- advice to the prime minister regutarty— advice to the prime minister regularly on _ advice to the prime minister regularly on covid _ advice to the prime minister regularly on covid issues? l advice to the prime minister regularly on covid issues? i| advice to the prime minister- regularly on covid issues? i was nuts _ regularly on covid issues? i was nuts i— regularly on covid issues? i was nuts i was _ regularly on covid issues? i was nuts. i was making _ regularly on covid issues? i was nuts. i was making sure - regularly on covid issues? i was nuts. i was making sure that- regularly on covid issues? i was| nuts. i was making sure that the overall— nuts. i was making sure that the overall machine _ nuts. i was making sure that the overall machine and _ nuts. i was making sure that the overall machine and processes l nuts. i was making sure that the - overall machine and processes were working _ overall machine and processes were working and — overall machine and processes were working and i— overall machine and processes were working and i was— overall machine and processes were working and i was not— overall machine and processes were working and i was not in— overall machine and processes were working and i was not in the - overall machine and processes were working and i was not in the same l working and i was not in the same way abte — working and i was not in the same way able to— working and i was not in the same way able to give _ working and i was not in the same way able to give the _ working and i was not in the same way able to give the same - working and i was not in the same i way able to give the same advice as imran— way able to give the same advice as imran or— way able to give the same advice as imran or stuart. _ way able to give the same advice as imran or stuart. —— _ way able to give the same advice as imran or stuart. —— i— way able to give the same advice as imran or stuart. —— i was— way able to give the same advice as imran or stuart. —— i was knocked. i imran or stuart. —— i was knocked. you _ imran or stuart. —— i was knocked. you are _ imran or stuart. —— i was knocked. you are aware _ imran or stuart. —— i was knocked. you are aware that _ imran or stuart. —— i was knocked. you are aware that he _ imran or stuart. —— i was knocked. you are aware that he was - imran or stuart. —— i was knocked. you are aware that he was too - you are aware that he was too deferentiat— you are aware that he was too deferential to _ you are aware that he was too deferential to the _ you are aware that he was too deferential to the prime - you are aware that he was too . deferential to the prime minister and shied — deferential to the prime minister and shied away— deferential to the prime minister and shied away from _ deferential to the prime minister and shied away from confronting| deferential to the prime minister- and shied away from confronting him with the _ and shied away from confronting him with the hard — and shied away from confronting him with the hard issues. _ and shied away from confronting him with the hard issues. what _ and shied away from confronting him with the hard issues. what would - and shied away from confronting him| with the hard issues. what would you say to _ with the hard issues. what would you say to that? — with the hard issues. what would you say to that? i— with the hard issues. what would you sa to that? . . , with the hard issues. what would you say to that?— say to that? i imagine as part of our evidence _ say to that? i imagine as part of our evidence will _ say to that? i imagine as part of our evidence will come - say to that? i imagine as part of our evidence will come back - say to that? i imagine as part of our evidence will come back to i say to that? i imagine as part of. our evidence will come back to the departure arrangements for mark central. on a number of occasions, where i felt it was necessary and i needed to step in, i give the prime minister very clear advice when i disagreed with him, but those were on issues when i've felt that it was my role as a principal private secretary to step in and give that advice. i can identify three orfour

such examples of that would be helpful. such examples of that would be helful. ., ., , . , helpful. your position is that they all related to _ helpful. your position is that they all related to the _ helpful. your position is that they all related to the organisational l all related to the organisational aspects — all related to the organisational aspects of— all related to the organisational aspects of number— all related to the organisational aspects of number ten, - all related to the organisational aspects of number ten, to- all related to the organisational aspects of number ten, to the. all related to the organisational. aspects of number ten, to the role by which _ aspects of number ten, to the role by which advice _ aspects of number ten, to the role by which advice was _ aspects of number ten, to the role by which advice was given - aspects of number ten, to the role by which advice was given by- aspects of number ten, to the role i by which advice was given by others, how the _ by which advice was given by others, how the system _ by which advice was given by others, how the system work— by which advice was given by others, how the system work to _ by which advice was given by others, how the system work to support - by which advice was given by others, how the system work to support the| how the system work to support the prime _ how the system work to support the prime minister— how the system work to support the prime minister in _ how the system work to support the prime minister in essence. - how the system work to support the prime minister in essence.— prime minister in essence. correct. tell us please _ prime minister in essence. correct. tell us please whether _ prime minister in essence. correct. tell us please whether there - prime minister in essence. correct. tell us please whether there is - prime minister in essence. correct. tell us please whether there is any| tell us please whether there is any basis _ tell us please whether there is any basis to— tell us please whether there is any basis to the — tell us please whether there is any basis to the suggestion _ tell us please whether there is any basis to the suggestion made - tell us please whether there is any basis to the suggestion made by l tell us please whether there is any| basis to the suggestion made by mr cummings— basis to the suggestion made by mr cummings that _ basis to the suggestion made by mr cummings that in _ basis to the suggestion made by mr cummings that in february- basis to the suggestion made by mr cummings that in february and - basis to the suggestion made by mr. cummings that in february and march of 2020 _ cummings that in february and march of 2020 there — cummings that in february and march of 2020 there was _ cummings that in february and march of 2020 there was an _ cummings that in february and march of 2020 there was an untoward - cummings that in february and marchl of 2020 there was an untoward degree of 2020 there was an untoward degree of optimism _ of 2020 there was an untoward degree of optimism bias — of 2020 there was an untoward degree of optimism bias on _ of 2020 there was an untoward degree of optimism bias on the _ of 2020 there was an untoward degree of optimism bias on the part _ of 2020 there was an untoward degree of optimism bias on the part of- of 2020 there was an untoward degree of optimism bias on the part of the - of optimism bias on the part of the prime _ of optimism bias on the part of the prime minister, _ of optimism bias on the part of the prime minister, a _ of optimism bias on the part of the prime minister, a sense _ of optimism bias on the part of the prime minister, a sense of, - of optimism bias on the part of the prime minister, a sense of, the - prime minister, a sense of, the worst— prime minister, a sense of, the worst is— prime minister, a sense of, the worst is not— prime minister, a sense of, the worst is not going _ prime minister, a sense of, the worst is not going to— prime minister, a sense of, the worst is not going to happen, l prime minister, a sense of, the - worst is not going to happen, we may be overreacting — worst is not going to happen, we may be overreacting here, _ worst is not going to happen, we may be overreacting here, it— worst is not going to happen, we may be overreacting here, it could - worst is not going to happen, we may be overreacting here, it could be - be overreacting here, it could be swine _ be overreacting here, it could be swine flu, — be overreacting here, it could be swine flu, there _ be overreacting here, it could be swine flu, there is _ be overreacting here, it could be swine flu, there is nothing - be overreacting here, it could be swine flu, there is nothing to- swine flu, there is nothing to see here, _ swine flu, there is nothing to see here, or— swine flu, there is nothing to see here, or not _ swine flu, there is nothing to see here, or not too _ swine flu, there is nothing to see here, or not too much _ swine flu, there is nothing to see here, or not too much to - swine flu, there is nothing to see here, or not too much to see - swine flu, there is nothing to see i here, or not too much to see here. is here, or not too much to see here. is there _ here, or not too much to see here. is there any— here, or not too much to see here. is there any basis _ here, or not too much to see here. is there any basis for _ here, or not too much to see here. is there any basis for that - is there any basis for that suggestion? _ is there any basis for that suggestion? i— is there any basis for that suggestion?— is there any basis for that su: aestion? ~ i. ., ., ~' is there any basis for that su: aestion? ~ i. ., ., ,, . suggestion? i think if you look at the paperwork — suggestion? i think if you look at the paperwork through _ suggestion? i think if you look at the paperwork through from -

suggestion? i think if you look at - the paperwork through from january, the paperwork through from january, february, march, actually until late february, march, actually until late february, while there are clearly reports coming in identifying some of the risks and challenges around covid—i9, the tone of those communications which i imagine we may wish to come back to was very much that the system was tracking this very carefully, the right processes were in place to manage that, and that whilst they were potentially large challenges ahead, that in a sense, the plans and the preparations were broadly in place, and i think there was a sort of reassuring message coming up into number ten during that period. in terms of the prime ministers perspective, i think he is instinctively optimistic, but i also think that he instinctively believes that as a leader, it is important to project confidence and an ability to deal with things. but i think that

the suggestion you are making is one which is shared notjust as it were by the prime minister but across the centre of government more generally, that in a sense, this is a worrying pandemic in china, it was being tracked quite closely, and the preparations were in place to deal with it if necessary. the preparations were in place to deal with it if necessary.— with it if necessary. the secret is the word bias, _ with it if necessary. the secret is the word bias, the _ with it if necessary. the secret is the word bias, the suggestion i with it if necessary. the secret is the word bias, the suggestion is| the word bias, the suggestion is that there — the word bias, the suggestion is that there was _ the word bias, the suggestion is that there was a _ the word bias, the suggestion is that there was a degree - the word bias, the suggestion is that there was a degree of- the word bias, the suggestion is- that there was a degree of optimism bias, that there was a degree of optimism bias. that _ that there was a degree of optimism bias. that is — that there was a degree of optimism bias. that is say— that there was a degree of optimism bias, that is say that _ that there was a degree of optimism bias, that is say that the _ that there was a degree of optimism bias, that is say that the sunny - bias, that is say that the sunny outlook— bias, that is say that the sunny outlook adopted _ bias, that is say that the sunny outlook adopted by— bias, that is say that the sunny outlook adopted by the - bias, that is say that the sunny outlook adopted by the prime i outlook adopted by the prime minister— outlook adopted by the prime ministerand _ outlook adopted by the prime ministerand perhaps- outlook adopted by the prime minister and perhaps others. outlook adopted by the prime i minister and perhaps others in government— minister and perhaps others in government was— minister and perhaps others in government was not _ minister and perhaps others in government was not justified i minister and perhaps others in. government was notjustified by minister and perhaps others in- government was not justified by the developing — government was not justified by the developing reality, _ government was not justified by the developing reality, by— government was not justified by the developing reality, by the _ government was not justified by the developing reality, by the objective| developing reality, by the objective stated _ developing reality, by the objective stated facts — developing reality, by the objective stated facts i— developing reality, by the ob'ective stated facts.— stated facts. i think your inquiry will be better _ stated facts. i think your inquiry will be better able _ stated facts. i think your inquiry will be better able to _ stated facts. i think your inquiry will be better able to verify - stated facts. i think your inquiry will be better able to verify that j will be better able to verify that than i can. will be better able to verify that than i can-— will be better able to verify that thanlcan. ., than i can. you were mrjohnson's trinci tal than i can. you were mrjohnson's principal private _ than i can. you were mrjohnson's principal private secretary. - than i can. you were mrjohnson's principal private secretary. you i principal private secretary. you must _ principal private secretary. you must have _ principal private secretary. you must have formed _ principal private secretary. you must have formed a _ principal private secretary. you must have formed a view- principal private secretary. you must have formed a view in - principal private secretary. you - must have formed a view in february

and march _ must have formed a view in february and march as— must have formed a view in february and march as to— must have formed a view in february and march as to whether— must have formed a view in february and march as to whether or - must have formed a view in february and march as to whether or not - must have formed a view in february and march as to whether or not the i and march as to whether or not the government— and march as to whether or not the government was _ and march as to whether or not the government was getting _ and march as to whether or not the government was getting on - and march as to whether or not the government was getting on top - and march as to whether or not the government was getting on top of. and march as to whether or not the . government was getting on top of the problem _ government was getting on top of the problem with— government was getting on top of the problem with sufficient _ government was getting on top of the problem with sufficient alacrity, - problem with sufficient alacrity, speed _ problem with sufficient alacrity, speed and — problem with sufficient alacrity, speed and attention _ problem with sufficient alacrity, speed and attention to - problem with sufficient alacrity, speed and attention to detail. l problem with sufficient alacrity, - speed and attention to detail. fromm speed and attention to detail. from the paperwork _ speed and attention to detail. from the paperwork certainly _ speed and attention to detail. the paperwork certainly that i have here, from february there is a note to the prime minister setting out as it were the assessment of the challenges that covid—i9 presented, and that notice produced by a group of the most senior advisers on the issue, plus the direct to the civil contingency secretariat, and that note i can see does seem to be pretty, i wouldn't say reassuring, but gives the sense that the system is gripping the challenge in an appropriate way. and i recognise that after that, within about two or three weeks period, the government is looking at very fundamental interventions, but i would just observe that many of those interventions were not highlighted

or identified in the note at the end of february. so i agree that with the benefit of hindsight, it does appear that we should have been far more vigorously looking in testing our arrangement for what was coming, and that would arguably have made a big difference when the crisis hit. you are referring to a note to the prime _ you are referring to a note to the prime minister— you are referring to a note to the prime minister on _ you are referring to a note to the prime minister on the _ you are referring to a note to the prime minister on the 20th - you are referring to a note to the prime minister on the 20th of- prime minister on the 20th of february. _ prime minister on the 20th of february. and _ prime minister on the 20th of february, and we _ prime minister on the 20th of february, and we will- prime minister on the 20th of february, and we will come . prime minister on the 20th of. february, and we will come back prime minister on the 20th of- february, and we will come back to that in— february, and we will come back to that in due — february, and we will come back to that in due course. _ february, and we will come back to that in due course. what— february, and we will come back to that in due course. what about - that in due course. what about before — that in due course. what about before the _ that in due course. what about before the end _ that in due course. what about before the end of— that in due course. what about before the end of february, . that in due course. what about - before the end of february, though? and putting — before the end of february, though? and putting aside _ before the end of february, though? and putting aside hindsight, - before the end of february, though? and putting aside hindsight, it- before the end of february, though? and putting aside hindsight, it was. and putting aside hindsight, it was apparent, — and putting aside hindsight, it was apparent, wasn't _ and putting aside hindsight, it was apparent, wasn't it, _ and putting aside hindsight, it was apparent, wasn't it, by— and putting aside hindsight, it was apparent, wasn't it, by the - and putting aside hindsight, it was apparent, wasn't it, by the middle| apparent, wasn't it, by the middle of february. — apparent, wasn't it, by the middle of february, that _ apparent, wasn't it, by the middle of february, that there _ apparent, wasn't it, by the middle of february, that there was - of february, that there was sustained _ of february, that there wasl sustained human—to—human transmission _ sustained human—to—human transmission in _ sustained human—to—human transmission in the - sustained human—to—human . transmission in the community sustained human—to—human - transmission in the community in the united _ transmission in the community in the united kingdom, _ transmission in the community in the united kingdom, correct? _ transmission in the community in the united kingdom, correct? correct. it| united kingdom, correct? correct. it was obvious, — united kingdom, correct? correct. it was obvious, because _ united kingdom, correct? correct. it was obvious, because sage - united kingdom, correct? correct. it was obvious, because sage and i was obvious, because sage and through— was obvious, because sage and through the _ was obvious, because sage and through the c50 _ was obvious, because sage and

through the c50 and _ was obvious, because sage and through the c50 and the - was obvious, because sage and - through the c50 and the government, sa-e through the c50 and the government, sage advised — through the c50 and the government, sage advised and _ through the c50 and the government, sage advised and through _ through the c50 and the government, sage advised and through the - through the c50 and the government, sage advised and through the cmo i through the c50 and the government, i sage advised and through the cmo and the csa _ sage advised and through the cmo and the csa the _ sage advised and through the cmo and the csa the government _ sage advised and through the cmo and the csa the government was _ sage advised and through the cmo and the csa the government was aware i the csa the government was aware that the _ the csa the government was aware that the ability— the csa the government was aware that the ability of— the csa the government was aware that the ability of the _ the csa the government was aware that the ability of the state - the csa the government was aware that the ability of the state to i the csa the government was aware that the ability of the state to be i that the ability of the state to be able to _ that the ability of the state to be able to control _ that the ability of the state to be able to control the _ that the ability of the state to be able to control the spread - that the ability of the state to be able to control the spread of i that the ability of the state to be able to control the spread of the | able to control the spread of the virus _ able to control the spread of the virus was — able to control the spread of the virus was very— able to control the spread of the virus was very much _ able to control the spread of the virus was very much weakened. i able to control the spread of the i virus was very much weakened. it was plain that _ virus was very much weakened. it was plain that there — virus was very much weakened. it was plain that there would _ virus was very much weakened. it was plain that there would be _ virus was very much weakened. it was plain that there would be very - virus was very much weakened. it was plain that there would be very real- plain that there would be very real difficulties— plain that there would be very real difficulties in— plain that there would be very real difficulties in controlling _ plain that there would be very real difficulties in controlling the - difficulties in controlling the spread _ difficulties in controlling the spread of— difficulties in controlling the spread of the _ difficulties in controlling the spread of the virus, - difficulties in controlling the| spread of the virus, correct? difficulties in controlling the l spread of the virus, correct? i spread of the virus, correct? defer to yourjudgment. i spread of the virus, correct?- deferto yourjudgment. i haven't defer to yourjudgment. i haven't got the record in front of me. do you recall? i recall the flow of information highlighting the growing problem of covid—i9. in terms of actually the assessment of what that means and what the reality means in terms of the uk government response, that, in a sense, is not the responsibility of the pps. you would expect via advice to be coming in, as we found out two or three weeks later, that we are not prepared to deal with x, y or z and we need to

address it very quickly. you started on those meetings _ address it very quickly. you started on those meetings with _ address it very quickly. you started on those meetings with the - address it very quickly. you started on those meetings with the prime l on those meetings with the prime minister— on those meetings with the prime minister in — on those meetings with the prime minister in early— on those meetings with the prime minister in early and _ on those meetings with the prime minister in early and middle i on those meetings with the prime minister in early and middle and i minister in early and middle and late february. _ minister in early and middle and late february, did _ minister in early and middle and late february, did you _ minister in early and middle and late february, did you not? i minister in early and middle and | late february, did you not? yes. minister in early and middle and i late february, did you not? yes. you sent and _ late february, did you not? yes. you sent and received _ late february, did you not? yes. you sent and received e—mails _ late february, did you not? yes. you sent and received e—mails about i sent and received e—mails about covid-19 — sent and received e—mails about covid-19 in — sent and received e—mails about mad-19 in the _ sent and received e—mails about covid—19 in the early _ sent and received e—mails about covid—19 in the early and - sent and received e—mails about covid—19 in the early and middlej sent and received e—mails about i covid—19 in the early and middle and late part _ covid—19 in the early and middle and late part of— covid—19 in the early and middle and late part of february, _ covid—19 in the early and middle and late part of february, did _ covid—19 in the early and middle and late part of february, did you - covid—19 in the early and middle and late part of february, did you not? l late part of february, did you not? yes~ _ late part of february, did you not? yes~ so— late part of february, did you not? yes~ so you — late part of february, did you not? yes. so you must _ late part of february, did you not? yes. so you must have _ late part of february, did you not? yes. so you must have min- late part of february, did you not? yes. so you must have min awarei late part of february, did you not? i yes. so you must have min aware of what _ yes. so you must have min aware of what the _ yes. so you must have min aware of what the status _ yes. so you must have min aware of what the status of— yes. so you must have min aware of what the status of the _ yes. so you must have min aware of what the status of the crisis - yes. so you must have min aware of what the status of the crisis was, i what the status of the crisis was, the fact— what the status of the crisis was, the fact that _ what the status of the crisis was, the fact that it _ what the status of the crisis was, the fact that it had _ what the status of the crisis was, the fact that it had already - what the status of the crisis was, i the fact that it had already started to spread — the fact that it had already started to spread in— the fact that it had already started to spread in the _ the fact that it had already started to spread in the united _ the fact that it had already started to spread in the united kingdom l the fact that it had already started i to spread in the united kingdom had presented _ to spread in the united kingdom had presented the — to spread in the united kingdom had presented the government _ to spread in the united kingdom had presented the government with i to spread in the united kingdom had presented the government with an . presented the government with an alarming _ presented the government with an alarming conundrum, _ presented the government with an alarming conundrum, with - presented the government with an alarming conundrum, with the - alarming conundrum, with the terrible — alarming conundrum, with the terrible prospect— alarming conundrum, with the terrible prospect —— _ alarming conundrum, with the terrible prospect —— prospect, | terrible prospect —— prospect, correct? — terrible prospect —— prospect, correct? correct. _ terrible prospect —— prospect, correct? correct. so, - terrible prospect —— prospect, correct? correct. so, why- terrible prospect —— prospect, correct? correct. so, why was terrible prospect —— prospect, i correct? correct. so, why was it, only— correct? correct. so, why was it, only at_ correct? correct. so, why was it, only at the — correct? correct. so, why was it, only at the end _ correct? correct. so, why was it, only at the end of _ correct? correct. so, why was it, only at the end of february, - correct? correct. so, why was it, only at the end of february, that| only at the end of february, that the government— only at the end of february, that the government machine, - only at the end of february, that the government machine, to - the government machine, to paraphrase _ the government machine, to paraphrase your _ the government machine, to paraphrase your evidence, . the government machine, to - paraphrase your evidence, proceeded to deal—

paraphrase your evidence, proceeded to deal with _ paraphrase your evidence, proceeded to deal with this _ paraphrase your evidence, proceeded to deal with this crisis, _ paraphrase your evidence, proceeded to deal with this crisis, to _ paraphrase your evidence, proceeded to deal with this crisis, to deal- to deal with this crisis, to deal with— to deal with this crisis, to deal with the — to deal with this crisis, to deal with the problem _ to deal with this crisis, to deal with the problem which - to deal with this crisis, to deal with the problem which was i to deal with this crisis, to deal- with the problem which was already then apparent? _ with the problem which was already then apparent? is _ with the problem which was already then apparent? fis [— with the problem which was already then apparent?— then apparent? as i say, i think the evidence, from _ then apparent? as i say, i think the evidence, from what _ then apparent? as i say, i think the evidence, from what you _ then apparent? as i say, i think the evidence, from what you are - then apparent? as i say, i think the | evidence, from what you are saying, seems to suggest that we should have been assessing the situation differently and moving more quickly, but that certainly, from the note at the end of february, the overall sense was a relevant parts of government —— the relevant parts of government —— the relevant parts of government were already looking over exactly what needed to be done in preparations and the overall message was well there was some difficult decisions to be taken, the government machine is prepared for that eventuality.

you have a great deal of experience of course _ you have a great deal of experience of course in — you have a great deal of experience of course in the _ you have a great deal of experience of course in the civil— you have a great deal of experience of course in the civil service - you have a great deal of experience of course in the civil service with - of course in the civil service with the management— of course in the civil service with the management of— of course in the civil service withi the management of government. of course in the civil service with - the management of government. it's what you _ the management of government. it's what you do — the management of government. it's what you do to— the management of government. it's what you do. to what _ the management of government. it's what you do. to what extent - the management of government. it's what you do. to what extent it - the management of government. it's what you do. to what extent it was . what you do. to what extent it was mrjohnson's— what you do. to what extent it was mrjohnson's administration- what you do. to what extent it was mrjohnson's administration in - mrjohnson's administration in february. _ mrjohnson's administration in february, january— mrjohnson's administration in february, january and - mrjohnson's administration ini february, january and february mrjohnson's administration in . february, january and february of 2020. _ february, january and february of 2020, an— february, january and february of 2020, an inexperienced _ february, january and february of 2020, an inexperienced one, - february, january and february of 2020, an inexperienced one, or. february, january and february of 2020, an inexperienced one, or ai february, january and february of- 2020, an inexperienced one, or a new one, 2020, an inexperienced one, or a new one. or— 2020, an inexperienced one, or a new one. or one _ 2020, an inexperienced one, or a new one. or one that — 2020, an inexperienced one, or a new one, or one that might, _ 2020, an inexperienced one, or a new one, or one that might, because - 2020, an inexperienced one, or a new one, or one that might, because of. one, or one that might, because of the novelty— one, or one that might, because of the novelty and _ one, or one that might, because of the novelty and of— one, or one that might, because of the novelty and of course _ one, or one that might, because of the novelty and of course the - the novelty and of course the general— the novelty and of course the general election— the novelty and of course the general election had - the novelty and of course the general election had only- the novelty and of course the . general election had only taken place _ general election had only taken place a — general election had only taken place a few— general election had only taken place a few months _ general election had only taken place a few months before, - general election had only taken| place a few months before, that perhaps — place a few months before, that perhaps it — place a few months before, that perhaps it was _ place a few months before, that perhaps it was unable _ place a few months before, that i perhaps it was unable structurally to be _ perhaps it was unable structurally to be able — perhaps it was unable structurally to be able to _ perhaps it was unable structurally to be able to cope _ perhaps it was unable structurally to be able to cope with _ perhaps it was unable structurally to be able to cope with a - perhaps it was unable structurally to be able to cope with a crisis . perhaps it was unable structurally to be able to cope with a crisis of| to be able to cope with a crisis of this nry— to be able to cope with a crisis of this rny new— to be able to cope with a crisis of this my new tutor. _ to be able to cope with a crisis of this my new tutor. [— to be able to cope with a crisis of this my new tutor.— this my new tutor. i think it is fair -- of _ this my new tutor. i think it is fair -- of this _ this my new tutor. i think it is fair -- of this magnitude. - this my new tutor. i think it is fair -- of this magnitude. i i this my new tutor. i think it is i fair -- of this magnitude. i think fair —— of this magnitude. i think it is fair to say that the dynamics in january to march of 2020 were very different to the dynamics before the election. obviously the

majority was very different. but there had been a very big shift in overall focus, pre—election, on brexit and the brexit negotiations, and that had been pretty... it had been the overriding focus of that entire period for three or four months, and that had been concluded. the election had happened, and it did feel like there was a significant, as it were, turning of the page, because with the majority of 80 or whatever it was, there was a sense that the government had a five or ten year time horizon to look at, and there was already strong focus on the forward agenda. so at the beginning ofjanuary, there was an away day at chequers which i attended. there was some work around what i would view as

completing brexit. not masses, but around closing down the department for exiting the european union. there were some very big decisions around hs2 and sg there were some very big decisions around hs2 and 56 and the roll—out of 56 technology across the uk. and so, there was, as it were, very different fields of downing street, a different feel to the central government as we were trying to get used to what the different political reality meant. if i may continue, the other thing i would say within downing street specifically was we were getting used to a slightly divergent internal politics, because it was increasingly clear that the prime ministers and dominic cummings's agendas were not overlapping or overlapped in part but not all of it. so we had to work out what with the competing

priorities, how do we deliver this and what are we trying to achieve as and what are we trying to achieve as a collective? that dynamic i believe was starting to become more prominent. the other dynamic i would say during this period is a sort of unease with some of the messaging and actions taking place. so, it was during this period that we are talking about the appointment of various, and i use quotes here, widows and misfits, and bringing people into downing street. we had the case of mr sue biscay who was an advisor brought in who had unusual views on eugenics. and after three days he resigned. there was a lot of work going on around possible reorganisation of number ten because we were considering number ——

relocating the prime minister office to a different part of the building. there was quite a bit of unease in the civil service around, and i excuse my language, the so—called ship list of people who who were thought to be at risk of what was perceived to be at risk of a muscular approach to the civil service. so it is fair to say, in the period you are talking about, there were quite a lot of other things taking place, which meant that quite a lot of senior energy and attention was focusing on other things. i’m and attention was focusing on other thins. �* , ., ., , things. i'm 'ust going to put you there, things. i'm just going to put you there. please. _ things. i'm just going to put you there, please, that's _ things. i'm just going to put you there, please, that's a - things. i'm just going to put you there, please, that's a very - things. i'm just going to put you| there, please, that's a very long answer~ — there, please, that's a very long answer the _ there, please, that's a very long answer. the dynamic— there, please, that's a very long answer. the dynamic between . there, please, that's a very long i answer. the dynamic between mr cummings— answer. the dynamic between mr cummings and _ answer. the dynamic between mr cummings and the _ answer. the dynamic between mr cummings and the prime - answer. the dynamic between mr| cummings and the prime minister answer. the dynamic between mr. cummings and the prime minister of course _ cummings and the prime minister of course changed _ cummings and the prime minister of course changed during _ cummings and the prime minister of course changed during the _ cummings and the prime minister of course changed during the course i cummings and the prime minister of course changed during the course of| course changed during the course of the year. _ course changed during the course of the year. did — course changed during the course of the year. did it— course changed during the course of the year, did it not, _ course changed during the course of the year, did it not, and _ course changed during the course of the year, did it not, and in- course changed during the course of the year, did it not, and in the - course changed during the course of the year, did it not, and in the end i the year, did it not, and in the end mrcummings— the year, did it not, and in the end mrcummings left— the year, did it not, and in the end mrcummings left at— the year, did it not, and in the end mr cummings left at the _ the year, did it not, and in the end mr cummings left at the end - the year, did it not, and in the end mr cummings left at the end of- the year, did it not, and in the end. mr cummings left at the end of 2020. that dynamic. —

mr cummings left at the end of 2020. that dynamic, this _ mr cummings left at the end of 2020. that dynamic, this is _ mr cummings left at the end of 2020. that dynamic, this is bbc— mr cummings left at the end of 2020. that dynamic, this is bbc news - that dynamic, this is bbc news covering — that dynamic, this is bbc news covering the _ that dynamic, this is bbc news covering the covid—i9 _ that dynamic, this is bbc news covering the covid—i9 inquiry. l that dynamic, this is bbc news l covering the covid—i9 inquiry. we covering the covid-19 inquiry. we 'ust want covering the covid—i9 inquiry. just want to apologise if you covering the covid—i9 inquiry.“ just want to apologise if you have been following this. there was some language there, where he did apologise beforehand, but he made reference to a term that was used as part of this inquiry. if you caught that on bbc news, it was made by martin reynolds who was the former principal private secretary to the prime minister borisjohnson at the time. let's rejoin the inquiry. but time. let's re'oin the inquiry. but what i time. let's re'oin the inquiry. but what i would — time. let's rejoin the inquiry. but what i would also say is that the prime _ what i would also say is that the prime minister— what i would also say is that the prime minister at _ what i would also say is that the prime minister at the time - what i would also say is that the prime minister at the time did l what i would also say is that the l prime minister at the time did not work— prime minister at the time did not work exclusively— prime minister at the time did not work exclusively on _ prime minister at the time did not work exclusively on the _ prime minister at the time did not work exclusively on the basis - prime minister at the time did not work exclusively on the basis of. work exclusively on the basis of advice — work exclusively on the basis of advice of— work exclusively on the basis of advice of his— work exclusively on the basis of advice of his chief— work exclusively on the basis of advice of his chief of— work exclusively on the basis of advice of his chief of staff, - work exclusively on the basis of advice of his chief of staff, and i advice of his chief of staff, and that if— advice of his chief of staff, and that if you _ advice of his chief of staff, and that if you look _ advice of his chief of staff, and that if you look at _ advice of his chief of staff, and that if you look at many - advice of his chief of staff, and that if you look at many of - advice of his chief of staff, and that if you look at many of the | that if you look at many of the policy — that if you look at many of the policy debates _ that if you look at many of the policy debates going - that if you look at many of the policy debates going on, - that if you look at many of the policy debates going on, he i that if you look at many of the i policy debates going on, he was looking — policy debates going on, he was looking to — policy debates going on, he was looking to other— policy debates going on, he was looking to other advisers - policy debates going on, he was looking to other advisers within| looking to other advisers within number— looking to other advisers within number ten _ looking to other advisers within numberten to— looking to other advisers within number ten to express - looking to other advisers within

number ten to express their- looking to other advisers within - number ten to express their views, and he _ number ten to express their views, and he liked. — number ten to express their views, and he liked. as— number ten to express their views, and he liked, as it— number ten to express their views, and he liked, as it were _ number ten to express their views, and he liked, as it were a - and he liked, as it were a multiplicity— and he liked, as it were a multiplicity of— and he liked, as it were a multiplicity of different. and he liked, as it were a - multiplicity of different arguments from which — multiplicity of different arguments from which you _ multiplicity of different arguments from which you could _ multiplicity of different arguments from which you could choose. - multiplicity of different arguments from which you could choose. a i from which you could choose. a particularly _ from which you could choose. a particularly important _ from which you could choose. a particularly important adviser. from which you could choose. aj particularly important adviser in this context _ particularly important adviser in this context was _ particularly important adviser in this context was ed _ particularly important adviser in this context was ed lister- particularly important adviser in this context was ed lister who i particularly important adviser in - this context was ed lister who would often _ this context was ed lister who would often give _ this context was ed lister who would often give a — this context was ed lister who would often give a very— this context was ed lister who would often give a very different _ this context was ed lister who would often give a very different egg - often give a very different egg assessment— often give a very different egg assessment or— often give a very different egg assessment or perspective - often give a very different egg assessment or perspective on| often give a very different egg - assessment or perspective on many of the core _ assessment or perspective on many of the core issues — assessment or perspective on many of the core issues reflecting _ assessment or perspective on many of the core issues reflecting his- assessment or perspective on many of the core issues reflecting his role - the core issues reflecting his role or his _ the core issues reflecting his role or his previous— the core issues reflecting his role or his previous roles _ the core issues reflecting his role or his previous roles in _ the core issues reflecting his role or his previous roles in local- or his previous roles in local government— or his previous roles in local government and _ or his previous roles in local government and in - or his previous roles in locall government and in business. or his previous roles in local- government and in business. so, whilst _ government and in business. so, whilst you're _ government and in business. so, whilst you're right _ government and in business. so, whilst you're right that _ government and in business. so, whilst you're right that there - government and in business. so, whilst you're right that there is l government and in business. so, whilst you're right that there is a | whilst you're right that there is a sort of— whilst you're right that there is a sort of very— whilst you're right that there is a sort of very clear _ whilst you're right that there is a sort of very clear political - sort of very clear political direction. _ sort of very clear political direction, there - sort of very clear political direction, there are - sort of very clear political direction, there are the l sort of very clear political . direction, there are the two sort of very clear political - direction, there are the two bits of confusion — direction, there are the two bits of confusion i — direction, there are the two bits of confusion i would _ direction, there are the two bits of confusion i would add _ direction, there are the two bits of confusion i would add to _ direction, there are the two bits of confusion i would add to that, - direction, there are the two bits of confusion i would add to that, one| confusion i would add to that, one is that— confusion i would add to that, one is that dominic _ confusion i would add to that, one is that dominic cummings - confusion i would add to that, one is that dominic cummings is - confusion i would add to that, one is that dominic cummings is not . is that dominic cummings is not like most _ is that dominic cummings is not like most previous— is that dominic cummings is not like most previous chiefs _ is that dominic cummings is not like most previous chiefs of _ is that dominic cummings is not like most previous chiefs of staff- is that dominic cummings is not like most previous chiefs of staff always| most previous chiefs of staff always pursuing _ most previous chiefs of staff always pursuing the — most previous chiefs of staff always pursuing the same _ most previous chiefs of staff always pursuing the same agenda - most previous chiefs of staff always pursuing the same agenda as - most previous chiefs of staff always pursuing the same agenda as the l pursuing the same agenda as the prime _ pursuing the same agenda as the prime minister, _ pursuing the same agenda as the prime minister, and _ pursuing the same agenda as the prime minister, and that- pursuing the same agenda as the prime minister, and that the - pursuing the same agenda as the i prime minister, and that the prime minister— prime minister, and that the prime minister himself— prime minister, and that the prime minister himself is— prime minister, and that the prime minister himself is looking - prime minister, and that the prime minister himself is looking to - prime minister, and that the prime minister himself is looking to heari minister himself is looking to hear divergent— minister himself is looking to hear divergent views. _ minister himself is looking to hear divergent views. and _ minister himself is looking to hear divergent views. and hsz - minister himself is looking to hear divergent views. and hsz is- minister himself is looking to hear divergent views. and hsz is a - minister himself is looking to heari divergent views. and hsz is a good example _ divergent views. and hsz is a good example of— divergent views. and hsz is a good

example of that. _ divergent views. and hsz is a good example of that. mr— divergent views. and h52 is a good example of that.— example of that. mr reynolds, to ull ou example of that. mr reynolds, to pull you back _ example of that. mr reynolds, to pull you back from _ example of that. mr reynolds, to pull you back from a _ example of that. mr reynolds, to pull you back from a debate - example of that. mr reynolds, to | pull you back from a debate about hsz. i eschew what the position was in downing street injanuary and february of 2020. the relationship between dominic cummings and the prime minister did not begin to deteriorate until later in the year. the setting up of covid s and covid 90. the setting up of covid s and covid go, and his departure was later in the year, predominantly from may onwards. the other matters on which you have spoken, with the exception of mr cummings's appeal for widows and misfits, were all later in the year. i want to ask you what was the state of play, the ability of number ten to function efficiently and february, when these momentous decisions were starting to be taken?