on the 20th of may, so around this time, _ on the 20th of may, so around this time, you _ on the 20th of may, so around this time, you sent an e—mail about how nice it _ time, you sent an e—mail about how nice it would — time, you sent an e—mail about how nice it would be to make the most of this lovely— nice it would be to make the most of this lovely weather and have some socially _ this lovely weather and have some socially distant drinks in the garden _ socially distant drinks in the garden this evening. bring your own booze~ _ garden this evening. bring your own booze~ i_ garden this evening. bring your own booze. i don't intend to ask you whether— booze. i don't intend to ask you whether you received a fixed penalty notice~ _ whether you received a fixed penalty notice~ you — whether you received a fixed penalty notice. you may or may not have done, _ notice. you may or may not have done, and — notice. you may or may not have done, and it_ notice. you may or may not have done, and it is not fair to invite you to — done, and it is not fair to invite you to say— done, and it is not fair to invite you to say whether you did. it forms no part— you to say whether you did. it forms no part of— you to say whether you did. it forms no part of this inquiry to rule or determine _ no part of this inquiry to rule or determine liability. but do you accept — determine liability. but do you accept that the sending of that e-mail. — accept that the sending of that e—mail, and the events wits and shoot, _ e—mail, and the events wits and shoot, where again, deeply damaging to trusl— shoot, where again, deeply damaging to trust in— shoot, where again, deeply damaging to trust in the government, and damaging — to trust in the government, and damaging to public compliance. first i would like damaging to public compliance. first i would like to _ damaging to public compliance. f “sit i would like to say how deeply sorry i would like to say how deeply sorry i am for my part in those events. and for the e—mail message which

went out that day. i would like to apologise unreservedly to the families of all those who suffered during covid for all the distress caused. in terms of the coverage of this event in the garden, it actually broke into the news about 15 months later, so while i totally accept that i was totally wrong in the way i sent the e—mail rounds for the way i sent the e—mail rounds for the event, i think the impact on public confidence, although obviously now in terms of public confidence, more generally it has a serious impact on the pandemic at the time, it was... it had less impact. the time, it was... it had less imact. ~ , ., , , , impact. mr reynolds, the news broke of these goings _ impact. mr reynolds, the news broke of these goings on _ impact. mr reynolds, the news broke of these goings on in _ impact. mr reynolds, the news broke of these goings on in december- impact. mr reynolds, the news broke i of these goings on in december 2021, whilst _ of these goings on in december 2021, whilst we _ of these goings on in december 2021, whilst we were still in the middle of the _ whilst we were still in the middle of the pandemic, will be not? yes. what right- —

of the pandemic, will be not? yes. what right- on _ of the pandemic, will be not? yes. what right. on the _ of the pandemic, will be not? yes. what right. oh the 12th _ of the pandemic, will be not? yes. what right. oh the 12th of - of the pandemic, will be not? .;e:3 what right. on the 12th ofjune you sent messages by whatsapp to lee kane _ sent messages by whatsapp to lee kane can — sent messages by whatsapp to lee kane. can we have 265261. in the middle _ kane. can we have 265261. in the middle of— kane. can we have 265261. in the middle of the page lee kane... i'm not sure _ middle of the page lee kane... i'm not sure it — middle of the page lee kane... i'm not sure it works at all to be honest. _ not sure it works at all to be honest. i_ not sure it works at all to be honest, i don't see how we can have some _ honest, idon't see how we can have some sort— honest, idon't see how we can have some sort of— honest, i don't see how we can have some sort of party though. i think it is your— some sort of party though. i think it is your decision my friend, not mine _ it is your decision my friend, not mine 0t— it is your decision my friend, not mine. of this kit comes with substantial comms risks. and then later. _ substantial comms risks. and then later. at— substantial comms risks. and then later, at the end ofjune, there are further— later, at the end ofjune, there are further whatsapp is in relation to another— further whatsapp is in relation to another event in the garden. so the first issue. — another event in the garden. so the first issue, which i have put to you. _ first issue, which i have put to you. which— first issue, which i have put to you, which is the bring your own booze _ you, which is the bring your own booze event in the garden, was not a solitary _ booze event in the garden, was not a solitary event, was it? no.

booze event in the garden, was not a solitary event, was it?— solitary event, was it? no. and i aolouise solitary event, was it? no. and i apologise unreservedly - solitary event, was it? no. and i apologise unreservedly again - solitary event, was it? no. and i apologise unreservedly again fori apologise unreservedly again for these events. find apologise unreservedly again for these events.— apologise unreservedly again for these events. and you realise, of course, these events. and you realise, of course. that. _ these events. and you realise, of course, that, for _ these events. and you realise, of course, that, for the _ these events. and you realise, of course, that, for the public, - these events. and you realise, of i course, that, for the public, whose loved _ course, that, for the public, whose loved ones — course, that, for the public, whose loved ones were dying in their droves. — loved ones were dying in their droves, this caused incredible offence — droves, this caused incredible offence and added to their immeasurable pain.- offence and added to their immeasurable pain. offence and added to their immeasurable ain. , ~ , immeasurable pain. yes. as i say, i am deeply — immeasurable pain. yes. as i say, i am deeply sorry _ immeasurable pain. yes. as i say, i am deeply sorry for _ immeasurable pain. yes. as i say, i am deeply sorry for that. _ immeasurable pain. yes. as i say, i am deeply sorry for that. i - immeasurable pain. yes. as i say, i am deeply sorry for that. i have - immeasurable pain. yes. as i say, i am deeply sorry for that. i have no | am deeply sorry for that. i have no further questions. _ am deeply sorry for that. i have no further questions. i _ am deeply sorry for that. i have no further questions. i don't - am deeply sorry for that. i have no further questions. i don't think - further questions. i don't think there are _ further questions. i don't think there are any _ further questions. i don't think there are any questions... - further questions. i don't think there are any questions... it i further questions. i don't think i there are any questions... it may further questions. i don't think - there are any questions... it may be there are any questions... it may be there is one — there are any questions... it may be there is one area _ there are any questions... it may be there is one area that _ there are any questions... it may be there is one area that i _ there are any questions... it may be there is one area that i have - there are any questions... it may be there is one area that i have failed l there is one area that i have failed to explore — there is one area that i have failed to explore in relation to which we have _ to explore in relation to which we have indicated. did mr reynolds, the prime _ have indicated. did mr reynolds, the prime minister, make disparaging remarks _ prime minister, make disparaging remarks about the severity of long covid. _ remarks about the severity of long covid. to _ remarks about the severity of long covid, to your understanding, to your— covid, to your understanding, to your knowledge. i�*m covid, to your understanding, to your knowledge.— covid, to your understanding, to your knowledge. i'm afraid i can't remember _ your knowledge. i'm afraid i can't remember or— your knowledge. i'm afraid i can't remember or recall. _ your knowledge. i'm afraid i can't remember or recall. those - your knowledge. i'm afraid i can't remember or recall. those are i your knowledge. i'm afraid i can't| remember or recall. those are all the questions _ remember or recall. those are all the questions then. _ remember or recall. those are all the questions then. thank - remember or recall. those are all the questions then. thank you - remember or recall. those are all. the questions then. thank you very much, mr reynolds. _

the next witness. we have been hearing from martin reynolds and we are expecting to hear from reynolds and we are expecting to hearfrom imran shafi reynolds and we are expecting to hear from imran shafi who reynolds and we are expecting to hearfrom imran shafi who is reynolds and we are expecting to hear from imran shafi who is another former private secretary to the prime minister. we are due to hear from him and, as you heard there, we were hearing from... hearing about some of them messages, the whatsapp messages. we are seeing extracts from them and entries in private notebooks. that is imran shafi being

sworn in there. you'll make the evidence shall be the whole truth and nothing but the truth. {guild evidence shall be the whole truth and nothing but the truth. could you cive the and nothing but the truth. could you give the inquiry _ and nothing but the truth. could you give the inquiry your _ and nothing but the truth. could you give the inquiry your full _ and nothing but the truth. could you give the inquiry your full name. - and nothing but the truth. could you give the inquiry your full name. you | give the inquiry your full name. you have _ give the inquiry your full name. you have treen— give the inquiry your full name. you have been good enough to provide a statement — have been good enough to provide a statement. you signed this as being true on _ statement. you signed this as being true on the — statement. you signed this as being true on the 13th ofjune 2023. i hesitate — true on the 13th ofjune 2023. i hesitate because i can't see page 38 but i hesitate because i can't see page 38 but i think— hesitate because i can't see page 38 but i think we can see the date on the top _ but i think we can see the date on the top right—hand corner. the 19th ofjune _ the top right—hand corner. the 19th ofjune 2023. thank you for your assistance — ofjune 2023. thank you for your assistance in providing that statement. you with a private secretary _ statement. you with a private secretary to the prime minister, boris _ secretary to the prime minister, borisjohnson, for public secretary to the prime minister, boris johnson, for public services. you were — boris johnson, for public services. you were so— boris johnson, for public services. you were so from march 2018, from which _ you were so from march 2018, from which we _ you were so from march 2018, from which we deduce you must have been a

private _ which we deduce you must have been a private secretary before mrjohnson became _ private secretary before mrjohnson became prime minister, two march 2021. _ became prime minister, two march 2021. so— became prime minister, two march 2021, so approximately year after the pandemic started. that 2021, so approximately year after the pandemic started.— the pandemic started. that is correct. the pandemic started. that is correct- l— the pandemic started. that is correct. i think _ the pandemic started. that is correct. i think before - the pandemic started. that is correct. i think before that i the pandemic started. that is l correct. i think before that you the pandemic started. that is - correct. i think before that you had been a management _ correct. i think before that you had been a management consultant. correct. i think before that you had been a management consultant at| been a management consultant at mckinsey, and had also worked for some _ mckinsey, and had also worked for some time — mckinsey, and had also worked for some time in the treasury as a policy— some time in the treasury as a policy adviser. some time in the treasury as a policy adviser-— some time in the treasury as a policy adviser.- we - some time in the treasury as a policy adviser. yes. we have just policy adviser. yes. we have 'ust been hearing �* policy adviser. me; we have just been hearing evidence about the role of private _ been hearing evidence about the role of private secretaries and it may be that you _ of private secretaries and it may be that you had seen the evidence from martin— that you had seen the evidence from martin reynolds while you are waiting — martin reynolds while you are waiting. you are responsible for a particular— waiting. you are responsible for a particular portfolio. what was that? it particular portfolio. what was that? it changed — particular portfolio. what was that? it changed during my time at number ten, when the pandemic started. my portfolio was everything to do with the department of health, everything to do with the department for education. i to do with the department for education-— to do with the department for education. ., , ., ., ., ., education. i will ask you to go a bit slower- _

education. i will ask you to go a bit slower. everything _ education. i will ask you to go a bit slower. everything to - education. i will ask you to go a bit slower. everything to do - education. i will ask you to go a | bit slower. everything to do with the department _ bit slower. everything to do with the department of— bit slower. everything to do with the department of health, - bit slower. everything to do with the department of health, the l the department of health, the department for education, the department for education, the department for education, the department for work and pensions and the department for culture, media and sport. in the department for culture, media and sort. ., ., .,, and sport. in that role was it part of our and sport. in that role was it part of your functions _ and sport. in that role was it part of your functions to _ and sport. in that role was it part of your functions to deal - and sport. in that role was it part of your functions to deal with - and sport. in that role was it part of your functions to deal with the | of your functions to deal with the prime _ of your functions to deal with the prime minister?— of your functions to deal with the prime minister? yes. submit written advice? on behalf— prime minister? yes. submit written advice? on behalf of _ prime minister? yes. submit written advice? on behalf of others, - prime minister? yes. submit written advice? on behalf of others, yes. i advice? on behalf of others, yes. rela his advice? on behalf of others, yes. relay his comments _ advice? on behalf of others, yes. relay his comments or— advice? on behalf of others, yes. relay his comments or decisionsl advice? on behalf of others, yes. i relay his comments or decisions to others _ relay his comments or decisions to others for— relay his comments or decisions to others for action?— relay his comments or decisions to others for action? yes. arrange and attend others for action? mes arrange and attend meetings? others for action? yes. arrange and attend meetings? yes. _ others for action? yes. arrange and attend meetings? yes. it _ others for action? yes. arrange and attend meetings? yes. it is - others for action? yes. arrange and l attend meetings? yes. it is apparent from the attend meetings? mes it is apparent from the material that much of the heavy _ from the material that much of the heavy lifting is done in advance of meetings — heavy lifting is done in advance of meetings with the prime minister. yes. ., . , ., , meetings with the prime minister. yes. .,. meetings with the prime minister. yes. ., . ., yes. conclusions are drafted, information _ yes. conclusions are drafted, information is _ yes. conclusions are drafted, information is conveyed, - yes. conclusions are drafted, information is conveyed, the | yes. conclusions are drafted, - information is conveyed, the general course _ information is conveyed, the general course of— information is conveyed, the general course of what is to be decided is laid out _ course of what is to be decided is laid out for— course of what is to be decided is laid out for him or her to decide

what _ laid out for him or her to decide what needs to be done. that laid out for him or her to decide what needs to be done.- laid out for him or her to decide what needs to be done. that is often the case, what needs to be done. that is often the case. yes- _ how well that the system of private sector— how well that the system of private sector is _ how well that the system of private sector is work, in your opinion, in terms _ sector is work, in your opinion, in terms of— sector is work, in your opinion, in terms of putting the right information in front of the prime minister. — information in front of the prime minister, providing for clear lines of accountability and for providing that the _ of accountability and for providing that the best decisions were reached on the _ that the best decisions were reached on the information available. | on the information available. think, on the information available. i think, overall, broadly well. there were obviously, through the pandemic, many times when the system is under huge stress, but in general, i think the system works. to what extent was mr reynolds concerned in the substantive issues in relation — concerned in the substantive issues in relation to your portfolio area,

so public— in relation to your portfolio area, so public services, health, education and so on? in normal times, education and so on? in normal times. very _ education and so on? in normal times, very little, _ education and so on? in normal times, very little, because - education and so on? in normal times, very little, because lots| education and so on? in normal. times, very little, because lots of the areas that i worked on had quite a strong public spending angle. and so rather than martin reynolds being my supervisor on that, stuart glasper, who was more connected to the treasury, was closer to the work that i was doing.— that i was doing. ended abnormal times? in the _ that i was doing. ended abnormal times? in the early _ that i was doing. ended abnormal times? in the early periods - that i was doing. ended abnormal times? in the early periods of - that i was doing. ended abnormal. times? in the early periods of covid ou heard times? in the early periods of covid you heard from _ times? in the early periods of covid you heard from martin _ times? in the early periods of covid you heard from martin about - times? in the early periods of covid you heard from martin about the i times? in the early periods of covid l you heard from martin about the role he played in the early days. mas you heard from martin about the role he played in the early days.— he played in the early days. was he enuaaed, he played in the early days. was he engaged. perhaps _ he played in the early days. was he engaged, perhaps to _ he played in the early days. was he engaged, perhaps to a _ he played in the early days. was he engaged, perhaps to a lesser i he played in the early days. was he i engaged, perhaps to a lesser extent, but engaged nevertheless, in the substantive debate that was going on about covid and commenced, as far as the private _ about covid and commenced, as far as the private secretaries appear to be considered, late january onwards? | considered, late january onwards? i think considered, late january onwards? think so. considered, late january onwards? i think so- you _ considered, late january onwards? i think so. you must _ considered, late january onwards? i think so. you must recall? -

considered, late january onwards? i think so. you must recall? yes, i think so. you must recall? yes, substantively, _ think so. you must recall? yes, substantively, structures... i think so. you must recall? yes, i substantively, structures... lady, the cabinet _ substantively, structures... lady, the cabinet office _ substantively, structures... lady, the cabinet office disclosed i substantively, structures... lady, the cabinet office disclosed to i substantively, structures... lady, | the cabinet office disclosed to us, very late _ the cabinet office disclosed to us, very late on friday, at the very end of last— very late on friday, at the very end of last week, whatsapp group thread between _ of last week, whatsapp group thread between simon case and mr shafi. because _ between simon case and mr shafi. because of— between simon case and mr shafi. because of the shortness of time we have not— because of the shortness of time we have not been able to disclose that document — have not been able to disclose that document to the court participants, or indeed _ document to the court participants, or indeed the witness. but i am therefore — or indeed the witness. but i am therefore going tojust read out the relevant _ therefore going tojust read out the relevant part. on the 13th of september the same year, at 1230, simon _ september the same year, at 1230, simon case — september the same year, at 1230, simon case whatsapp due to say, this is all a _ simon case whatsapp due to say, this is all a bit _ simon case whatsapp due to say, this is all a bit of— simon case whatsapp due to say, this is all a bit of a fast, to be honest _ is all a bit of a fast, to be honest. i'm not sure why we don't 'ust honest. i'm not sure why we don't just operate — honest. i'm not sure why we don't just operate a normal private office system. _ just operate a normal private office system, which involved the lead

private — system, which involved the lead private secretary engaging the boss on the _ private secretary engaging the boss on the issue on behalf of everyone. in on the issue on behalf of everyone. in light _ on the issue on behalf of everyone. in light of— on the issue on behalf of everyone. in light of that whatsapp, whether times— in light of that whatsapp, whether times in— in light of that whatsapp, whether times in the course of the first year— times in the course of the first year of— times in the course of the first year of the _ times in the course of the first year of the pandemic, where the system — year of the pandemic, where the system of— year of the pandemic, where the system of information coming up to the boss. _ system of information coming up to the boss, the prime minister, from the boss, the prime minister, from the private — the boss, the prime minister, from the private secretary, did not work terribly— the private secretary, did not work terribly well? | the private secretary, did not work terribly well?— terribly well? i have had a chance to look at that _ terribly well? i have had a chance to look at that exchange - terribly well? i have had a chance to look at that exchange this i to look at that exchange this morning. i think that is a reference to some questions that the prime minister was asking and the prime minister was asking and the prime minister put those questions on a whatsapp group with a certain number of individuals. i was not in that group. you would need to check with cabinet secretary what his meaning was poor, but i think his meaning is that he wished the prime minister was asking the lead person the question, ratherthan was asking the lead person the question, rather than less of the group. question, rather than less of the urou -. �* . question, rather than less of the urou -. �* , . , group. but it is the cabinet secretary _ group. but it is the cabinet secretary who _ group. but it is the cabinet secretary who describes i group. but it is the cabinet | secretary who describes the group. but it is the cabinet - secretary who describes the private secretary _ secretary who describes the private secretary system is all a bit of a farce~ _ secretary system is all a bit of a farce~ why _ secretary system is all a bit of a farce. why don't we have a normal

private _ farce. why don't we have a normal private office system.— farce. why don't we have a normal private office system. again i don't have the exchange _ private office system. again i don't have the exchange in _ private office system. again i don't have the exchange in front - private office system. again i don't have the exchange in front of- private office system. again i don't have the exchange in front of me i private office system. again i don't i have the exchange in front of me but i think what he is describing as a farce is the way questions are being asked. in farce is the way questions are being asked. .. farce is the way questions are being asked. . ., x ,, farce is the way questions are being asked. . ., ., , asked. in the same whatsapp group, in jul , so asked. in the same whatsapp group, in july. so two _ asked. in the same whatsapp group, in july, so two months _ asked. in the same whatsapp group, in july, so two months before, i asked. in the same whatsapp group, in july, so two months before, at i injuly, so two months before, at 1103 on _ injuly, so two months before, at 1103 on the — injuly, so two months before, at 1103 on the 31st ofjuly, on a related _ 1103 on the 31st ofjuly, on a related issue, simon case says, these _ related issue, simon case says, these number ten whatsapp groups make _ these number ten whatsapp groups make everyone get more wound up, not less, make everyone get more wound up, not less. and _ make everyone get more wound up, not less. and you _ make everyone get more wound up, not less, and you reply, yes. iwant make everyone get more wound up, not less, and you reply, yes. i want to ask you. _ less, and you reply, yes. i want to ask you, therefore, what did you make _ ask you, therefore, what did you make of— ask you, therefore, what did you make of the fact that there were so many— make of the fact that there were so many communications being made by whatsapp? | many communications being made by whatsa -? ~ many communications being made by whatsa -7 ~ ., whatsapp? i think, given the need to move at speed. _ whatsapp? i think, given the need to move at speed, with _ whatsapp? i think, given the need to move at speed, with a _ whatsapp? i think, given the need to move at speed, with a lot _ whatsapp? i think, given the need to move at speed, with a lot of - whatsapp? i think, given the need to move at speed, with a lot of people i move at speed, with a lot of people working from home, it played an important role in having quick communication. again, i have only just had the chance to review that thread. i think, just had the chance to review that thread. ithink, again, the point there is, there were lots and lots

of people making comments about policy, who might not necessarily have been that close to the policy making, but were part of the wider number ten machine and who were raising questions about the approach and i think, again, you would need to check with the cabinet secretary what his meaning was but if i was going to guess, it would be, we don't want to keep on opening up debates. ~ ., , ., ., ., debates. would you agree that there are very real — debates. would you agree that there are very real problems _ debates. would you agree that there are very real problems with - debates. would you agree that there are very real problems with any i debates. would you agree that there are very real problems with any kind | are very real problems with any kind of use _ are very real problems with any kind of use of— are very real problems with any kind of use of whatsapp for the purposes of use of whatsapp for the purposes of governance? i... of use of whatsapp for the purposes of governance?— of governance? i... i think there are long-term — of governance? i... i think there are long-term lessons _ of governance? i... i think there are long-term lessons to - of governance? i... i think there are long-term lessons to be i of governance? i... i think there i are long-term lessons to be learned are long—term lessons to be learned about how we use electronic messaging. about how we use electronic messaging-— about how we use electronic messauuin. ., . , messaging. there are concerns about transparency- — messaging. there are concerns about transparency. things _ messaging. there are concerns about transparency. things are _ messaging. there are concerns about transparency. things are said - messaging. there are concerns about transparency. things are said in i messaging. there are concerns about transparency. things are said in the i transparency. things are said in the heat of— transparency. things are said in the heat of the — transparency. things are said in the heat of the moment, which may simply not be _ heat of the moment, which may simply not be true _ heat of the moment, which may simply not be true or— heat of the moment, which may simply not be true or accurate or reflect the course — not be true or accurate or reflect the course of the debate? yes, in the course of the debate? yes, in the same way _ the course of the debate? yes, in the same way that _ the course of the debate? yes, in the same way that people -

the course of the debate? yes, in the same way that people might i the course of the debate? yes, in i the same way that people might have comments in normal times, outside of meetings, which aren't recorded. but the are meetings, which aren't recorded. but they are a good indication, are they not, they are a good indication, are they not. of— they are a good indication, are they not. of the — they are a good indication, are they not, of the state of mind of the interlocutor?— not, of the state of mind of the i interlocutor?_ whether interlocutor? they can be. whether uuite interlocutor? they can be. whether quite complicated _ interlocutor? they can be. whether quite complicated management i interlocutor? they can be. whetheri quite complicated management lines in number— quite complicated management lines in numberten? you have got quite complicated management lines in number ten? you have got the cabinet _ in number ten? you have got the cabinet secretary, you have got the civil service — cabinet secretary, you have got the civil service structure, you have -ot civil service structure, you have got the — civil service structure, you have got the advisors. you have got private — got the advisors. you have got private secretaries, principal private — private secretaries, principal private secretary. it seems to have made _ private secretary. it seems to have made for _ private secretary. it seems to have made for quite a complex system of advice _ made for quite a complex system of advice giving to the prime minister. would _ advice giving to the prime minister. would you — advice giving to the prime minister. would you agree? it is advice giving to the prime minister. would you agree?— would you agree? it is not a completely _ would you agree? it is not a completely hierarchical i would you agree? it is not a - completely hierarchical organisation in a way other organisations might be. in the army, everybody reports up... mr shafi, you must go slower. there might — up... mr shafi, you must go slower. there might be _ up... mr shafi, you must go slower. there might be more _

up... mr shafi, you must go slower. there might be more here _ up... mr shafi, you must go slower. there might be more here clear i there might be more here clear hierarchy in other organisations. a number ten there is a mix of political staff and civil service staff. the hierarchy isn't always as clear. . . . . staff. the hierarchy isn't always as clear. . , , , ., ., clear. perhaps it is the nature of the field, clear. perhaps it is the nature of the field. high — clear. perhaps it is the nature of the field, high politics, - clear. perhaps it is the nature of the field, high politics, high i the field, high politics, high governance. the material may suggest that there _ governance. the material may suggest that there were a number of competing power sources in downing street. _ competing power sources in downing street, personality clashes, and we can see. _ street, personality clashes, and we can see, and you are aware of it in martin— can see, and you are aware of it in martin reynolds' report, high degree of functionality —— make this functionality in terms of dealing with the — functionality in terms of dealing with the prime minister. would you agree? _ with the prime minister. would you auree? . with the prime minister. would you agree?- and — with the prime minister. would you agree? yes. and none of that lent itself to the _ agree? yes. and none of that lent itself to the sort _ agree? yes. and none of that lent itself to the sort of _ agree? mes and none of that lent itself to the sort of decision making. _ itself to the sort of decision making, did it?— itself to the sort of decision making, did it? no. when, in late

janua making, did it? when, in late january and making, did it? tho. when, in late january and february, downing street generally— january and february, downing street generally first became aware of the problem _ generally first became aware of the problem of the repatriations of uk nationals— problem of the repatriations of uk nationals from china, the emergence of the _ nationals from china, the emergence of the virus. — nationals from china, the emergence of the virus, what was the general response — of the virus, what was the general response on the part of the prime minister? — response on the part of the prime minister? was at a big deal? was it something — minister? was at a big deal? was it something to be watched out for? was it to be _ something to be watched out for? was it to be to— something to be watched out for? was it to be to dismiss like swine flu? i it to be to dismiss like swine flu? i don't _ it to be to dismiss like swine flu? idon't think— it to be to dismiss like swine flu? i don't think he thought it was a big deal at that time. he had a briefing with the chief medical officer on the 11th of february, i believe, where some of the potential implications were set out. so i would characterise it as something to keep an eye out on, but also he clearly and repeatedly stressed the need to avoid over reaction which appears through various meetings in that time. 50 appears through various meetings in that time. ., , ., appears through various meetings in that time. . , . . that time. so there was an e-mail strin: on that time. so there was an e-mail string on the _ that time. so there was an e-mail

string on the 29th _ that time. so there was an e-mail string on the 29th of— that time. so there was an e-mail string on the 29th ofjanuary, i that time. so there was an e-mail string on the 29th ofjanuary, and | string on the 29th ofjanuary, and we will— string on the 29th ofjanuary, and we will start with page one. we can see from the top of the page that sir— we can see from the top of the page that sir patrick vallance e—mails number— that sir patrick vallance e—mails number ten that sir patrick vallance e—mails numberten with that sir patrick vallance e—mails number ten with minutes of a sage meeting _ number ten with minutes of a sage meeting which had taken place on the 28th of— meeting which had taken place on the 28th ofjanuary. in relation to which — 28th ofjanuary. in relation to which sir— 28th ofjanuary. in relation to which sir chris whitty had prepared a summary, is that correct? yes. and at the bottom — a summary, is that correct? yes. and at the bottom of— a summary, is that correct? mes and at the bottom of the page we can see that summary, where sir chris is addressing — that summary, where sir chris is addressing a member of downing street. _ addressing a member of downing street, william moore, is he a private — street, william moore, is he a private sector re—? he street, william moore, is he a private sector re-?_ street, william moore, is he a private sector re-? he is a special adviser.

this is written informally for you but it _ this is written informally for you but it can — this is written informally for you but it can be turned into more formal— but it can be turned into more formal note for ministers. he is telling — formal note for ministers. he is telling downing street what his take is on the _ telling downing street what his take is on the sage meeting. we are working — is on the sage meeting. we are working on— is on the sage meeting. we are working on four scenarios, but in practice — working on four scenarios, but in practice only two are worth considering for planning at this point — at the bottom of the page is at the opposite _ at the bottom of the page is at the opposite end of the risk scale and is our— opposite end of the risk scale and is our reasonable worst case scenario _ is our reasonable worst case scenario for which plans are being developed. with r, reproduction rate of two _ developed. with r, reproduction rate of two to— developed. with r, reproduction rate of two to three, so one person infects— of two to three, so one person infects two— of two to three, so one person infects two to three people in an unimmunised population, mortality of maybe _ unimmunised population, mortality of maybe 2%~ _

unimmunised population, mortality of maybe 2%. a doubling time of maybe three to _ maybe 2%. a doubling time of maybe three to five days and an incubation period _ three to five days and an incubation period of— three to five days and an incubation period of mean five days. this code within— period of mean five days. this code within the _ period of mean five days. this code within the next few weeks, become widespread and turn into a significant pandemic relatively quickly — significant pandemic relatively quickly. then he addresses who would be most _ quickly. then he addresses who would be most affected, older people, or those _ be most affected, older people, or those with— be most affected, older people, or those with pre—existing health conditions. and essentially, he says to number— conditions. and essentially, he says to numberten, there is, to use his wonderful— to numberten, there is, to use his wonderful words, difficult and dichotomous decision. i want to ask you therefore, what did your team, you therefore, what did your team, you are _ you therefore, what did your team, you are responsible for this portfolio _ you are responsible for this portfolio area is a private secretary, and the prime minister, make _ secretary, and the prime minister, make of— secretary, and the prime minister, make of this warning? was it

something that cause you to think a great _ something that cause you to think a great deal— something that cause you to think a great deal more carefully about whether— great deal more carefully about whether the worst—case scenario might— whether the worst—case scenario might in— whether the worst—case scenario might in shoe? or did you take from this that _ might in shoe? or did you take from this that there was a risk in overreaction? was it something that wasn't _ overreaction? was it something that wasn't going to go away and you absolutely had to be on top of this to make _ absolutely had to be on top of this to make sure that you knew what might _ to make sure that you knew what might happen? what was the response, generally. _ might happen? what was the response, generally, at number ten? might happen? what was the response, generally, at numberten?| might happen? what was the response, generally, at number ten?— generally, at number ten? i thinki read this is— generally, at number ten? i thinki read this is a _ generally, at number ten? i thinki read this is a very _ generally, at number ten? i thinki read this is a very serious - generally, at number ten? i thinki read this is a very serious e-maill read this is a very serious e—mail and something that required due attention. that is part of the reason why we got the chief medical officer to brief the prime minister on this issue a few days later. there was a note put into his prime ministerial— there was a note put into his prime ministerial box, was there not, on the 30th— ministerial box, was there not, on the 30th of— ministerial box, was there not, on the 30th ofjanuary. prime minister, a brief update on

coronavirus, you say, or rather it is said _ coronavirus, you say, or rather it is said at— coronavirus, you say, or rather it is said at the _ coronavirus, you say, or rather it is said at the bottom, a cobra ministerial— is said at the bottom, a cobra ministerial meeting by matt hancock will take _ ministerial meeting by matt hancock will take place tomorrow. the material— will take place tomorrow. the material around this time, mr shafi, seems _ material around this time, mr shafi, seems to— material around this time, mr shafi, seems to focus on the repatriations of uk _ seems to focus on the repatriations of uk nationals, as opposed to addressing, in detail, the likelihood of the risk that the virus — likelihood of the risk that the virus would spread to the united kingdom — virus would spread to the united kingdom in an uncontrolled way. why was that— kingdom in an uncontrolled way. why was that focus on repatriation? it�*s was that focus on repatriation? it's a aood was that focus on repatriation? it�*s a good question. i think... firstly, i think the meeting with the prime minister on the 11th of february does talk about the potential chance of the reasonable worst—case scenario. i think it is about 10%. i think you're right. i think a lot of the

focus at the sensor was, how do we make sure this doesn't come to the uk, orthat make sure this doesn't come to the uk, or that we can contain it, rather than getting into the difficult measures that you might have to take, should you fail to contain it. have to take, should you fail to contain it-_ have to take, should you fail to contain it. this is the update on the 3rd of _ contain it. this is the update on the 3rd of february. _ a situation update is given on the outbreak— a situation update is given on the outbreak of novel coronavirus. wuhan novel _ outbreak of novel coronavirus. wuhan novel coronavirus. how many tests have _ novel coronavirus. how many tests have been— novel coronavirus. how many tests have been concluded, how many tests positive. _ have been concluded, how many tests positive, and over the page... british— positive, and over the page... british nationals in charge, communications, and then this, cross government— communications, and then this, cross government meetings, clear references to a sage meeting, across government meeting, further ad hoc

cross— government meeting, further ad hoc cross government officials meetings, cts charing cross government meeting. _ cts charing cross government meeting, and then a cobra for ministers _ meeting, and then a cobra for ministers on the 5th of february. it looks— ministers on the 5th of february. it looks as _ ministers on the 5th of february. it looks as if. — ministers on the 5th of february. it looks as if, mr shafi, when the warning — looks as if, mr shafi, when the warning was received, a lot was done in terms _ warning was received, a lot was done in terms of— warning was received, a lot was done in terms of setting up the meetings, the structures, the debate. would you agree?— you agree? what you mean by the debate? the _ you agree? what you mean by the debate? the novel _ you agree? what you mean by the debate? the novel coronavirus. i you agree? what you mean by thel debate? the novel coronavirus. it's a- arent debate? the novel coronavirus. it's apparent that _ debate? the novel coronavirus. it's apparent that it _ debate? the novel coronavirus. it's apparent that it is _ debate? the novel coronavirus. it's apparent that it is in _ debate? the novel coronavirus. it's apparent that it is in china, - debate? the novel coronavirus. it's apparent that it is in china, it i debate? the novel coronavirus. it's apparent that it is in china, it is i apparent that it is in china, it is beginning — apparent that it is in china, it is beginning to leak. they have been cases— beginning to leak. they have been cases outside china. and because of the information that's been received in the _ the information that's been received in the heart — the information that's been received in the heart of the uk government, these _ in the heart of the uk government, these sage — in the heart of the uk government, these sage meetings, cobra beatings, all beginning to be held. is that a fair summary?—

all beginning to be held. is that a fair summary? yes. on the 4th of fair summary? yes. on the 11th of february there — fair summary? yes. on the 11th of february there was _ fair summary? yes. on the 11th of february there was a _ fair summary? mes on the 4th of february there was a departmental meeting _ this letter from downing street, too, this letter from downing street, too. i_ this letter from downing street, too, i think, this letter from downing street, too, ithink, the private this letter from downing street, too, i think, the private secretary, said. _ too, i think, the private secretary, said. the _ too, i think, the private secretary, said, the prime minister met your secretary— said, the prime minister met your secretary of state, colleagues from the centre, for his first departmental performance meeting. we be an departmental performance meeting. we began with a short update on coronavirus and the prime minister expressed — coronavirus and the prime minister expressed the need to keep public confidence. there is a note about travel— confidence. there is a note about travel restrictions the letter goes on to— travel restrictions the letter goes on to deal— travel restrictions the letter goes on to deal with objectives for the nhs _ on to deal with objectives for the nhs to — on to deal with objectives for the nhs. to what extent had the coronavirus issue made its way to the centre — coronavirus issue made its way to the centre of government concern or

government— the centre of government concern or government action in the first week in february? it government action in the first week in february?— in february? it had, but probably not to the extent _ in february? it had, but probably not to the extent it _ in february? it had, but probably not to the extent it ought - in february? it had, but probably not to the extent it ought to i in february? it had, but probably| not to the extent it ought to have had. , . not to the extent it ought to have had. . , , not to the extent it ought to have had. i , , . , not to the extent it ought to have had.i , , . , ., not to the extent it ought to have had. , , . , ., ., had. just pause the. why not to the extent that — had. just pause the. why not to the extent that it _ had. just pause the. why not to the extent that it ought _ had. just pause the. why not to the extent that it ought to _ had. just pause the. why not to the extent that it ought to have - had. just pause the. why not to the extent that it ought to have done? l had. just pause the. why not to the j extent that it ought to have done? i extent that it ought to have done? i think extent that it ought to have done? think this extent that it ought to have done? i think this meeting is a good example of that. it was a meeting with the health secretary and the prime minister. it had reached number ten because the first part of that meeting was focused on coronavirus, but then the rest of the meeting, the prime minister and the health secretary, wanted to discuss progress on building 110 hospitals or recruiting 50,000 nurses or the other manifesto commitments that were very important to the government. to were very important to the government.— were very important to the government. were very important to the covernment. ., ., , ., government. to what extent should number ten — government. to what extent should number ten have _ government. to what extent should number ten have stepped _ government. to what extent should number ten have stepped in - government. to what extent should number ten have stepped in and i government. to what extent should i number ten have stepped in and said to the _ number ten have stepped in and said to the dhs— number ten have stepped in and said to the dhs c, forget the nhs and long—term objectives, we want to know— long—term objectives, we want to know what — long—term objectives, we want to know what you are doing about

coronavirus, as opposed to saying to number— coronavirus, as opposed to saying to number ten. — coronavirus, as opposed to saying to number ten, forgets talking about nhs objectives, we have got a serious — nhs objectives, we have got a serious problem here relating to coronavirus? | serious problem here relating to coronavirus?— serious problem here relating to coronavirus? i don't think we are the experts _ coronavirus? i don't think we are the experts on — coronavirus? i don't think we are the experts on that. _ coronavirus? i don't think we are the experts on that. we - coronavirus? i don't think we are the experts on that. we need i coronavirus? i don't think we are the experts on that. we need to| coronavirus? i don't think we are i the experts on that. we need to be guided by the department to tell us what the important issues are. there were, it is obvious, _ what the important issues are. there were, it is obvious, that _ were, it is obvious, that coronavirus is an issue was put before — coronavirus is an issue was put before the _ coronavirus is an issue was put before the prime minister repeatedly in february. we can have an extract from _ in february. we can have an extract from his— in february. we can have an extract from his diary for, if we can go forward. — from his diary for, if we can go forward, the 14th of february. no, i think— forward, the 14th of february. no, i think i_ forward, the 14th of february. no, i think i have — forward, the 14th of february. no, i think i have got the wrong reference. friday the 14th of february _ reference. friday the 14th of february there is, between ten o'clock— february there is, between ten o'clock and 1045, there should be an entry—

o'clock and 1045, there should be an entry for— o'clock and 1045, there should be an entry for a _ o'clock and 1045, there should be an entry for a coronavirus meeting. the matter— entry for a coronavirus meeting. the matter was— entry for a coronavirus meeting. the matter was discussed repeatedly in cobra _ matter was discussed repeatedly in cobra beatings, was it not? yes. so there are a — cobra beatings, was it not? yes. so there are a series _ cobra beatings, was it not? me; so there are a series of cobra meetings, chaired by matt hancock, on the _ meetings, chaired by matt hancock, on the 24th— meetings, chaired by matt hancock, on the 24th of every and a further four meetings 29th ofjanuary, fifth february. _ four meetings 29th ofjanuary, fifth february, 18th february and 26th of february _ february, 18th february and 26th of february. is that correct? yes. the first one, february. is that correct? yes. the first one. the _ february. is that correct? yes. the first one, the 24th _ february. is that correct? yes. the first one, the 24th of— february. is that correct? me; the first one, the 24th ofjanuary, page one. _ first one, the 24th ofjanuary, page one. shows — first one, the 24th ofjanuary, page one, shows us who was present. page two shows— one, shows us who was present. page two shows us— one, shows us who was present. page two shows us that from number ten you attended. page three, at paragraph two, it will be over one more _ paragraph two, it will be over one more page... information is given in

paragraph _ more page... information is given in paragraph two about the number of confirmed — paragraph two about the number of confirmed cases, confirmed deaths. the true _ confirmed cases, confirmed deaths. the true number was likely higher with modelling indicating more cases — with modelling indicating more cases. there was no clear evidence of sustained — cases. there was no clear evidence of sustained transmission outside of wuhan _ of sustained transmission outside of wuhan. what did numberten make of sustained transmission outside of wuhan. what did number ten make of the fact— wuhan. what did number ten make of the fact that the cmo had reported there _ the fact that the cmo had reported there was— the fact that the cmo had reported there was no clear evidence of sustained _ there was no clear evidence of sustained transmission, as opposed to saying _ sustained transmission, as opposed to saying there was no sustained transmission? | to saying there was no sustained transmission?— transmission? i don't think we appreciated — transmission? i don't think we appreciated that _ transmission? i don't think we appreciated that nuance i transmission? i don't think we appreciated that nuance at i transmission? i don't think we j appreciated that nuance at the transmission? i don't think we i appreciated that nuance at the time. i think throughout february there wasn't a clear call on whether there wasn't a clear call on whether there was sustained community transmission in the uk. ~ , was sustained community transmission in the uk. ~ .,, , ., ., ., in the uk. was number ten aware of this issue. — in the uk. was number ten aware of this issue. and _ in the uk. was number ten aware of this issue, and the _ in the uk. was number ten aware of this issue, and the need _ in the uk. was number ten aware of this issue, and the need to - in the uk. was number ten aware of this issue, and the need to ensure l this issue, and the need to ensure that they— this issue, and the need to ensure that they understood whether there was sustained transmission? | that they understood whether there was sustained transmission? i think es, we was sustained transmission? i think yes. we knew _ was sustained transmission? i think yes, we knew that _ was sustained transmission? i think yes, we knew that the _ was sustained transmission? i think yes, we knew that the point - was sustained transmission? i think yes, we knew that the point at - yes, we knew that the point at which, in the uk, we could evidence sustained community transmission, it

was very likely that contained approaches would fail. find was very likely that contained approaches would fail. and you began to understand — approaches would fail. and you began to understand that _ approaches would fail. and you began to understand that there _ approaches would fail. and you began to understand that there was - to understand that there was sustained transmission and that control— sustained transmission and that control would likely fail. during _ control would likely fail. during the course of middle to late february? — during the course of middle to late february? i — during the course of middle to late februa ? ~' ., during the course of middle to late februa ? ~ ., ., ., february? i think more late than middle. february? i think more late than middle- but _ february? i think more late than middle. but well— february? i think more late than middle. but well before, - february? i think more late than middle. but well before, of - february? i think more late than i middle. but well before, of course, the change — middle. but well before, of course, the change of _ middle. but well before, of course, the change of strategy _ middle. but well before, of course, the change of strategy on _ middle. but well before, of course, the change of strategy on the - middle. but well before, of course, the change of strategy on the 13th i the change of strategy on the 13th of march, — the change of strategy on the 13th of march, about which, to which we will come — of march, about which, to which we will come. , of march, about which, to which we will come- it _ of march, about which, to which we will come. yes. it was understood that there — will come. yes. it was understood that there was _ will come. fies it was understood that there was sustained transmission, and if the virus got a grip. _ transmission, and if the virus got a grip, got— transmission, and if the virus got a grip, got ahold in the united kingdom, there was no effective means— kingdom, there was no effective means of— kingdom, there was no effective means of containing it thereafter. there _ means of containing it thereafter. there were — means of containing it thereafter. there were means to mitigate, and the plan through late february and early march, was to mitigate the epidemic rather than suppress. but that wasn't the question. was it understood that there was no means of controlling the virus, stopping it from _

of controlling the virus, stopping it from spreading? | of controlling the virus, stopping it from spreading?— it from spreading? i think that's ri . ht, it from spreading? i think that's right. yes- _ it from spreading? i think that's right. lies and _ it from spreading? i think that's right, yes. and that _ it from spreading? i think that's right, yes. and that was, - it from spreading? i think that's right, yes. and that was, you i it from spreading? i think that's i right, yes. and that was, you say, more late- -- _ right, yes. and that was, you say, more late... ? _ right, yes. and that was, you say, more late... ? i— right, yes. and that was, you say, more late... ? ithink— right, yes. and that was, you say, more late... ? i think more - right, yes. and that was, you say, more late... ? i think more late . more late... ? i think more late than mid- _ more late... ? i think more late than mid- 0n — more late... ? i think more late than mid. on the _ more late... ? i think more late than mid. on the 29th - more late... ? i think more late than mid. on the 29th of - more late... ? i think more late i than mid. on the 29th ofjanuary, cobra, than mid. on the 29th ofjanuary, cobra. you _ than mid. on the 29th ofjanuary, cobra, you weren't, _ than mid. on the 29th ofjanuary, cobra, you weren't, i _ than mid. on the 29th ofjanuary, cobra, you weren't, i think, - than mid. on the 29th ofjanuary, cobra, you weren't, i think, an i cobra, you weren't, ithink, an attendee — cobra, you weren't, ithink, an attendee at— cobra, you weren't, ithink, an attendee at this cobra. if we go to the second — attendee at this cobra. if we go to the second page. a person whose name has been redacted — a person whose name has been redacted attended on behalf of number— redacted attended on behalf of number ten. redacted attended on behalf of numberten. if you redacted attended on behalf of number ten. if you go to page three, we can— number ten. if you go to page three, we can see _ number ten. if you go to page three, we can see a — number ten. if you go to page three, we can see a number of chief medical officer— we can see a number of chief medical officer is_ we can see a number of chief medical officer is dialled in. if you go to page _ officer is dialled in. if you go to page five. — officer is dialled in. if you go to page five, the cm aero and the c50 updated _ page five, the cm aero and the c50 updated the meeting, paragraph three. _ updated the meeting, paragraph three, uk planning assumptions based on the _ three, uk planning assumptions based on the reasonable worst case scenario. _ on the reasonable worst case scenario, there are two scenarios to be considered. the second one, which was that— be considered. the second one, which was that there would be a pandemic

would _ was that there would be a pandemic would he _ was that there would be a pandemic would be plausible but it may