would move taking responsibility. it would move around and it fundamentally, like all problems, comes into number ten and a small group of people who have to make the best of things. just finally on this, the cabinet secretary is somebody who would usually take the lead on this. mr cummings makes no bones about his opinion on mark several�*s input at this stage. he said he was out to lunch and everybody knew that. what do you say to that? i had lunch and everybody knew that. what do you say to that?— do you say to that? i had a good relationship _ do you say to that? i had a good relationship with _ do you say to that? i had a good relationship with lord _ do you say to that? i had a good relationship with lord sidwell, l do you say to that? i had a good| relationship with lord sidwell, he is an incredibly talented official. i wouldn't have known where the responsibility came for who should be doing what in the cabinet office. i think probably a lower level, i

couldn't really comment on that. but overall, is couldn't really comment on that. but overall, is this fair, you may not use those words, you perhaps might not have so much to do with lord sedwill as he is now, but the general theme of lack of leadership and chaos, if you like, is one that you agree with?— and chaos, if you like, is one that you agree with? yes. let's move on. i want to ask — you agree with? yes. let's move on. i want to ask you _ you agree with? yes. let's move on. i want to ask you about the discussions around the first lockdown decision, and if we could start by going to page eight of your witness statement. we see there the heading, and then did strategy, nationwide lockdown. that is the description, isn't it, of the change from the mitigation strategy to the lockdown, suppression strategy that we have

heard a great deal about in the last few weeks. and we've also heard from other witnesses, and we will hear from others, about that series of meetings that took place on friday the 13th, and then into the weekend, where that decision crystallised, is that fair? . where that decision crystallised, is that fair?- i — where that decision crystallised, is that fair?- i just _ where that decision crystallised, is that fair? yes. ijust want where that decision crystallised, is that fair? yes. i just want to ask that fair? yes. i 'ust want to ask ou that fair? yes. i 'ust want to ask you really _ that fair? yes. i 'ust want to ask you really about— that fair? yes. i just want to ask you really about two _ that fair? yes. ijust want to ask you really about two issues relating to that sequence of events. the first, if we look at paragraph 33, you describe their as part of the reason for this change of tack, what you described as new modelling overseen by mark and ben warner showed that unless the government urgently change course, the nhs would be overwhelmed within weeks. if we just assume out again, you can

see that you make a similar point again at paragraph 3a b, you refer to the new modelling, by which i take it you mean the modelling you describe in paragraph 33? yes. was our describe in paragraph 33? yes. was your impression, then, that around this time, towards the end of that week, something had changed in the modelling, orthe week, something had changed in the modelling, or the numbers, which was telling you something about the threat to the nhs which hadn't been known before? 50 threat to the nhs which hadn't been known before?— threat to the nhs which hadn't been known before? so our assumptions at this particular — known before? so our assumptions at this particular time, _ known before? so our assumptions at this particular time, and _ known before? so our assumptions at this particular time, and what - known before? so our assumptions at this particular time, and what we - this particular time, and what we have been told in the weeks prior, that a suppression strategy wouldn't work, people could only undergo sort of 12 weeks of this kind of hard measures, so i think it is important to understand this, that suppression wouldn't work, and if we did suppress, as soon as we unlocked, we would then see a second spike, nhs overwhelmed, so i think it is important initially to say that the reason we didn't even consider or

discuss a suppression strategy at that point was because the information was itjust wouldn't work. now on this point, obviously on the mitigation strategy, which the core of that was, wherever we were, along, elongated peak that would stay underneath the capacity levels for the nhs, and ensure that when we did alleviate those measures, they would be a certain amount of herd immunity within the system, and important again to reinforce that herd immunity was not a goal, we were told it was an inevitability, but how would we manage that? so that was the plan. i think what this new modelling, i was first aware of mr cummings grabbed

me on friday and said he wasn't in the actual core meeting that day, he had grabbed me and said ben and mark had grabbed me and said ben and mark had gone off and crunch the numbers, and there was new modelling, and actually our current plan means that we are going to notjust go through the nhs capacity level, we are going to absolutely smash through the nhs capacity level, and we are looking at thousands of additional beds that we don't have, and all those other things, so tens of thousands of people are going to die on this particular plan, and the nhs is going to be totally overwhelmed and it will be worse than the scenes that people have seen in lombardy and elsewhere. so at that point, the only course was an urgent change of plan. so on the saturday, he said to me we are going to speak to the prime minister to talk him through

theissues prime minister to talk him through the issues of three scenarios. i’m the issues of three scenarios. i'm auoin to the issues of three scenarios. i“n going to come to that meeting in a moment, but ijust want going to come to that meeting in a moment, but i just want to going to come to that meeting in a moment, but ijust want to come back, if i may, to this point about the nhs being overwhelmed. i think you've explained it very well, which is that you had previously understood that the mitigation strategy, as well as being one that was necessary because suppression wouldn't work, but the mitigation strategy could be achieved without overwhelming the nhs, and that was this was something new that you are being told in these few days? yes. that that is — being told in these few days? yes. that that is not _ being told in these few days? yes. that that is not right, _ being told in these few days? yes. that that is not right, that - being told in these few days? yes. that that is not right, that the nhs is going to be overwhelmed, is that fair? . . is going to be overwhelmed, is that fair? , ., ., . ~ ., is going to be overwhelmed, is that fair? , ., ., . ,, ., ., ., ., fair? yes, and the lack of data that we had at that _ fair? yes, and the lack of data that we had at that point _ fair? yes, and the lack of data that we had at that point is _ fair? yes, and the lack of data that we had at that point is absolutely l we had at that point is absolutely staggering in terms of... very early on, there was no dashboard, no live information flow, no understanding of torque we would basically have a meeting where dominic would ask

certain people like sam stevens how much capacity there was, and it would bejotted down on much capacity there was, and it would be jotted down on a whiteboard. there was no use of serious technology and data to try and get a live minute by minute updates, so we were very much behind the curve on all of this. just sticking with this point about the nhs and to mr kane, because the evidence the inquiry has heard was that other people in particular, for example on sage, the scientists there, it had been apparent to them for some time, for example professor medley said that in his words, throughout february it became increasingly clear that nhs capacity increasingly clear that nhs capacity in the uk would be overwhelmed, and thatis in the uk would be overwhelmed, and that is under the mitigation strategy. others gave evidence to a similar effect. but if that is what they were thinking, and they tell us it was, it seems that wasn't a message that was getting through to you at the heart of downing street.

no. i mean, obviously sage is a very broad church, and with a lot of views, different views. we would rely a great deal on chris whitty and patrick vallance, both of whom did an exceptionally good job of broadly giving us a coalesced view of that broad church, so we would often take a steer from them as to the right approach. aha, often take a steer from them as to the right approach.— the right approach. a short point. the 13th of _ the right approach. a short point. the 13th of march, _ the right approach. a short point. the 13th of march, or _ the right approach. a short point. l the 13th of march, or thereabouts, it says, under mitigation, the nhs will be overwhelmed. that was news to you? will be overwhelmed. that was news to ou? . . will be overwhelmed. that was news to ou? , ., , ., ., to you? yes, that was news to me at that point- _ to you? yes, that was news to me at that point- of— to you? yes, that was news to me at that point. of the _ to you? yes, that was news to me at that point. of the second _ to you? yes, that was news to me at that point. of the second point - to you? yes, that was news to me at that point. of the second point i - that point. of the second point i want to take _ that point. of the second point i want to take you _ that point. of the second point i want to take you to, _ that point. of the second point i want to take you to, that - that point. of the second point i want to take you to, that takes| that point. of the second point i i want to take you to, that takes us back to the meeting on saturday the 14th, which he referred to a moment ago. i think there was a late—night discussion between advisers on the

friday and then a meeting with the prime minister, i think there was probably more than one meeting the next day, on the saturday. and if you can just look at this on the screen, you refer to that meeting here. we have heard from others about it, and we will hear from more people steal, but if you look five or six lines down, you say there, the collective agreement in the room was that a full lockdown was the only strategy which could suppress the spread of covid—i9, save the nhs from collapse and ultimately buy the government more time, and flattening the curve could only really work as an interim measure untilfull lockdown can be achieved. so is it fair to say that there wasn't a decision made at that meeting to impose a lockdown, but as you put it, there was a collective agreement that that was inevitable? yes. and

as ou that that was inevitable? yes. and as you know. _ that that was inevitable? yes. and as you know, that _ that that was inevitable? yes. and as you know, that lockdown was indeed announced, but not for over a week. it was on monday the 23rd, ten days later, that it was in fact announced. looking back, was that a longer period then you would have anticipated as of the saturday the 14th of march?— anticipated as of the saturday the 14th of march? yes, but i think you also have to _ 14th of march? yes, but i think you also have to consider... _ 14th of march? yes, but i think you also have to consider... it - 14th of march? yes, but i think you also have to consider... it is - 14th of march? yes, but i think you also have to consider... it is quite. also have to consider... it is quite also have to consider... it is quite a big undertaking to lockdown the entire country. there needs to be provisions. it has got to be guidance drafted, legislation penned. you have to be able to take people with you, the cabinet have to have agreement so there is an awful lot that it does have to happen in that space. all the communications we had to plan. so while it was longer than we would like, i think those are justifiable reasons as to why it has taken the time.- those are justifiable reasons as to why it has taken the time. there is a lot to do. — why it has taken the time. there is a lot to do, and _ why it has taken the time. there is a lot to do, and i'm _ why it has taken the time. there is a lot to do, and i'm going - why it has taken the time. there is a lot to do, and i'm going to - why it has taken the time. there is a lot to do, and i'm going to bring| a lot to do, and i'm going to bring you to those points in a moment.

you've described many things that had to be considered, and the wheels of government perhaps don't necessarily turn as fast as you would like. but also it is important to say that this was a very grave decision to take, and so the damaging effects of lockdown had to be considered as well, is that fair? let's look at paragraph a0 of your statement, on page ten. you do say in the first sentence there, the implementation of the policy, that is the lockdown policy, isn't it? the implementation of the policy was delayed, and then you go on in the rest of that paragraph to make very much the point you have already make, with the government turning on all the things that had to be put in place to achieve that decision. i want to ask you about what is perhaps another theme of your statement, which is that another

because of that delay, if we want to call it that, was indecision on the part of the prime minister, and if we go to paragraph a2, please, and we go to paragraph a2, please, and we already have it, you say another challenge was that the prime minister would occasionally oscillate between lockdown and other potential policy options, a recurring theme during the critical decision points of covid, and to some degree, understandable given the gravity of the decisions. you say he worried about the impact on the economy, we have already seen that. and then you say this in the next are. the system works at its best when there is a clear direction from number 10 and the prime minister. these moments of indecision significantly impacted the pace and clarity of decision—making across government.

what were the prime minister's concerns around this time, mr cain? i think they were similar to the ones we've raised earlier, is the government overreacting, and will the cure be worse than the disease. i would say that it is pretty easy for advisers like myself to say the prime minister should have done x or y. ithink prime minister should have done x or y. i think this is probably one of the biggest peacetime decisions that are prime minister has had to undertake, and it clearly weighed incredibly heavy on him, and i think it is him and him alone who has to take that decision, so it is understandable that he wrestled with it. so i have few real concerns over this period of time. i'm sure we will come later to that summer and the second lockdown where i think it is slightly more difficult to defend. it

is slightly more difficult to defend. . is slightly more difficult to defend. , ., , ., defend. it is of course right that such a profound _ defend. it is of course right that such a profound decision - defend. it is of course right that such a profound decision is - defend. it is of course right that i such a profound decision is locking down, with all of the damaging consequences that would follow, has to be carefully thought through. but it is right also, isn't it, that if one adds to that factor your word oscillation, a degree of inability to take a decision, that could be a damaging thing, can't it? yes. to take a decision, that could be a damaging thing, can't it?- damaging thing, can't it? yes. no decision can _ damaging thing, can't it? yes. no decision can sometimes _ damaging thing, can't it? yes. no decision can sometimes be - damaging thing, can't it? yes. no decision can sometimes be worse | damaging thing, can't it? yes. no - decision can sometimes be worse than the wrong decision in certain circumstances, and i think indecision was a theme of covid that people did struggle with. i indecision was a theme of covid that people did struggle with.— people did struggle with. i would like to ask you _ people did struggle with. i would like to ask you about _ people did struggle with. i would like to ask you about a _ people did struggle with. i would| like to ask you about a whatsapp exchange between you and lee cain that took place during this period, the week between friday the 13th... sorry, between myself and... ?

dominic cummings.— sorry, between myself and... ? dominic cummings. whilst we are caettin dominic cummings. whilst we are getting that _ dominic cummings. whilst we are getting that document _ dominic cummings. whilst we are getting that document up, - dominic cummings. whilst we are getting that document up, mr - dominic cummings. whilst we are | getting that document up, mr cain, dol getting that document up, mr cain, do i understand from what you said earlier_ do i understand from what you said earlier that — do i understand from what you said earlier that you would defend the ten day _ earlier that you would defend the ten day gap between the decision taken _ ten day gap between the decision taken that there had to be a natlonel— taken that there had to be a national lockdown and actually implementing that decision? because i find implementing that decision? because l find that— implementing that decision? because i find that curious. as implementing that decision? because i find that curious. its | implementing that decision? because i find that curious.— i find that curious. as i said, i think it is _ i find that curious. as i said, i think it is longer _ i find that curious. as i said, i think it is longer than - i find that curious. as i said, i think it is longer than you - i find that curious. as i said, i i think it is longer than you would like, but i think it is important just to emphasise the amount of things that had to be done, and the amount of people we had to take with us to deliver a nationwide lockdown. it is a huge, huge undertaking, and to be honest, my understanding of government, that is government moving at a tremendous speed, which may be says more about government, but the machinery did felt like it moved quick for the machinery. but it is definitely longer than you would hope.

it is definitely longer than you would hope-— it is definitely longer than you would hoe. . ~ ,, �*, would hope. thank you. let's look here, mr would hope. thank you. let's look here. mr cain- _ would hope. thank you. let's look here, mr cain. let's _ would hope. thank you. let's look here, mr cain. let's not _ would hope. thank you. let's look here, mr cain. let's not worry - would hope. thank you. let's look. here, mr cain. let's not worry about the very top message, but the second one down, there is a series of four messages from dominic cummings to you. and i think it is clear that mr cummings is in a meeting with boris johnson and rishi sunak, and he says, first of all, getting here, he is melting down. before i go on, let's just note the date. it is the 19th of march. so the thursday of the week after that saturday meeting that we were just discussing. then he says, rishi says the bonds may not fund our debt. and then he refers to jaws. he not fund our debt. and then he refers to jaws.— not fund our debt. and then he refers to jaws. he is referring to the mayor _ refers to jaws. he is referring to the mayor in _ refers to jaws. he is referring to the mayor in the _ refers to jaws. he is referring to the mayor in the film _ refers to jaws. he is referring to the mayor in the film who - refers to jaws. he is referring to l the mayor in the film who wanted refers to jaws. he is referring to - the mayor in the film who wanted to keep the beach is open. he had a routine from previously in his career where he would use that for

one of his after—dinner speeches, where he said, there was more harm coming, and the mayor was right all along to keep the beaches open, because it would have been long—term in the community, so it was a reference to that.— in the community, so it was a reference to that. and then mr cummings _ reference to that. and then mr cummings said _ reference to that. and then mr cummings said i _ reference to that. and then mr cummings said i have - reference to that. and then mr cummings said i have literally| reference to that. and then mr - cummings said i have literally said the same thing ten times, he won't absorb it, and am exhausted stopping the trolley. i have had to sit here and stop him saying stupid things? and you said, i'm exhausted with him. that has been a gap for now, and it may be that there was a press conference, because you then forward a tweet about someone who was watching that press conference, saying that they were confused by what boris johnson saying that they were confused by what borisjohnson has said at it, and you say, as your message, no words. and then mr cummings said, what did i say? it is only a matter of time before his babbling exposes

the fact that he doesn't know what to say. in the first thing to ask you, i think it is apparent from what you have already said that dominic cummings was someone you had worked with for some time, and you clearly had a close relationship with him. was thisjust clearly had a close relationship with him. was this just chatter? clearly had a close relationship with him. was thisjust chatter? was this just banter, with him. was thisjust chatter? was thisjust banter, if with him. was thisjust chatter? was this just banter, if you with him. was thisjust chatter? was thisjust banter, if you like? where you just agreeing with him because he was your friend, or did you actually mean that you were exhausted, and that you are despairing, if you like, of what he was doing and saying? i despairing, if you like, of what he was doing and saying?— despairing, if you like, of what he was doing and saying? i think anyone that has worked _ was doing and saying? i think anyone that has worked with _ was doing and saying? i think anyone that has worked with the _ was doing and saying? i think anyone that has worked with the prime - that has worked with the prime minister for a that has worked with the prime ministerfor a period of time that has worked with the prime minister for a period of time will become exhausted with him sometimes. he can be quite a challenging character to work with, just because he will oscillate, he will take a decision from the last person in the room. i think that is pretty well documented in terms of his style of operating, and it is exhausting from time to time. you

operating, and it is exhausting from time to time-— operating, and it is exhausting from time to time. you made the point in our time to time. you made the point in your statement _ time to time. you made the point in your statement and _ time to time. you made the point in your statement and you _ time to time. you made the point in your statement and you have - time to time. you made the point in your statement and you have made | time to time. you made the point in | your statement and you have made it again today, mr cain, that if one is in the position of the prime minister and considering such a profound decision as ordering a lockdown, it is perfectly appropriate to way that decision carefully, to think about all of the negative consequences that will follow, but that is not what you are describing here. what we are seeing here in that critical period is someone who simply can't make up their mind, and with whom two of his closest advisers are exhausted. so i think there is a view that is correct. there is a difference between weighing up the evidence, and looking for a challenge on policy issues and being sure that we are making the right decision. i think issues like, if i remember

correctly, the message from steve swinford was regarding the press conference where i think he announced that we were going to turn the tide within 12 weeks, which we were frustrated by because the whole point of the suppression strategy will be very clear that the suppression strategy would be a long—term endeavour, looking at probably we would have to look at pretty hard measures, alleviate a little bit and go back into hard measures again to keep control of the virus. the only situation where a vaccine or another method came on line that would allow us a root out, but we all knew it was a long—term challenge, and i think from a communications point of view, the prime minister indicating that we basically could be finished with covid in 12 weeks was unhelpful, because it set a very unrealistic sort of expectation of where the nation needed to be, because it is

all about compliance at this point and being honest and transparent with the public about what to expect and how to expect it. mr with the public about what to expect and how to expect it.— and how to expect it. mr cain, you sa it and how to expect it. mr cain, you say it was— and how to expect it. mr cain, you say it was unhelpful. _ and how to expect it. mr cain, you say it was unhelpful. one - and how to expect it. mr cain, you say it was unhelpful. one might i say it was unhelpful. one might think that was quite a well chosen word from the communications world. mr cummings is clearly expressing the view to you at the time in the context of that that he doesn't think the prime minister is up to thejob. did you agree think the prime minister is up to the job. did you agree with that? i the job. did you agree with that? i think at that point, i think that is quite a strong thing to say. i think what would probably be clear in covid, it was the wrong crisis for this prime minister's skill set, which is different i think to not potentially being up to the job of prime minister. potentially being up to the “0b of prime minister.fi potentially being up to the “0b of prime minister. ~ ., ., , ., ., _ prime minister. what do you mean by the wron: prime minister. what do you mean by the wrong crisis _ prime minister. what do you mean by the wrong crisis for _ prime minister. what do you mean by the wrong crisis for this _

prime minister. what do you mean by the wrong crisis for this prime - the wrong crisis for this prime minister's skill set?— the wrong crisis for this prime minister's skill set? could weave straightforward _ minister's skill set? could weave straightforward english, - minister's skill set? could weave straightforward english, mr- minister's skill set? could weave | straightforward english, mr cain, please? — straightforward english, mr cain, please? i — straightforward english, mr cain, lease? ~ . straightforward english, mr cain, lease? ~' , , ., please? i think he is somebody who would often — please? i think he is somebody who would often delay _ please? i think he is somebody who would often delay making _ please? i think he is somebody who | would often delay making decisions, would often delay making decisions, would often delay making decisions, would often seek counsel from multiple sources and change his mind on issues. sometimes in politics that can be a great strength. i think if you look at how he navigated brexit, he allowed others to make decisions and jumped in at the last minute to get to the political advantage. the last minute to get to the politicaladvantage. i the last minute to get to the political advantage. i think if you look at something like covid, you need quick decisions and you need people to hold the course and have that strength of mind to do that over a sustained period of time, and not constantly unpick things, because that is where the problems lie, so i felt it was the wrong challenge for him mostly. let me move on. — challenge for him mostly. let me move on. mr _ challenge for him mostly. let me move on, mr cain. _ challenge for him mostly. let me move on, mr cain. i— challenge for him mostly. let me move on, mr cain. i want- challenge for him mostly. let me move on, mr cain. i want to - challenge for him mostly. let me move on, mr cain. i want to ask. challenge for him mostly. let me i move on, mr cain. i want to ask you a few questions about various communications strategies during the

pandemic. just communications strategies during the andemic. , , ., ., pandemic. just before you do, the meetin: pandemic. just before you do, the meeting on _ pandemic. just before you do, the meeting on the — pandemic. just before you do, the meeting on the 14th _ pandemic. just before you do, the meeting on the 14th of— pandemic. just before you do, the meeting on the 14th of march. - meeting on the 14th of march. everybody at the meeting, the prime minister_ everybody at the meeting, the prime minister at _ everybody at the meeting, the prime minister at the time was there, so boris _ minister at the time was there, so borisjohnson was there? minister at the time was there, so boris johnson was there? the saturda boris johnson was there? tie saturday meeting i think was quite in a team, so i can't remember if the cmo and csa were there, but it was more the office, political advisers, and the following day was advisers, and the following day was a wider cast list for the meeting. but it was agreed that we would have to -o but it was agreed that we would have to go into _ but it was agreed that we would have to go into national lockdown? broadly _ to go into national lockdown? broadly. it was agreed we needed to suppress urgently, and then it was a case of how we do that, yes. 50 suppress urgently, and then it was a case of how we do that, yes. so what i want to know _ case of how we do that, yes. so what i want to know is, _ case of how we do that, yes. so what i want to know is, did _ case of how we do that, yes. so what i want to know is, did the _ case of how we do that, yes. so what i want to know is, did the message i i want to know is, did the message then go— i want to know is, did the message then go out— i want to know is, did the message then go out to all government departments that we are now in warm mode _ departments that we are now in warm mode and _ departments that we are now in warm mode and you have to start to work out how _ mode and you have to start to work out how we — mode and you have to start to work out how we deal with a national lockdown, — out how we deal with a national lockdown, how we get it into place? was that _ lockdown, how we get it into place? was that the message that went out, always— was that the message that went out, always there still oscillation in the days — always there still oscillation in the days that followed us to wear that we _ the days that followed us to wear that we were going to a lockdown? at the decision— that we were going to a lockdown? at the decision been taken that weekend

or not? _ the decision been taken that weekend or not? the— the decision been taken that weekend or not? . , ., .., the decision been taken that weekend ornot? . , ., ., , the decision been taken that weekend ornot? ., i, or not? the decision can only be taken by cabinet _ or not? the decision can only be taken by cabinet or— or not? the decision can only be taken by cabinet or not, - or not? the decision can only be taken by cabinet or not, so - or not? the decision can only be taken by cabinet or not, so it. or not? the decision can only be | taken by cabinet or not, so it had to go through cabinet before that could move forwards, but i think there was a certain degree of uncertainty as to exactly what it would look like.— would look like. presumably a cabinet meeting _ would look like. presumably a cabinet meeting could - would look like. presumably a cabinet meeting could be - would look like. presumably a i cabinet meeting could be called would look like. presumably a - cabinet meeting could be called very quickly— cabinet meeting could be called very quickly in _ cabinet meeting could be called very quickly in times of emergency? | quickly in times of emergency? i think quickly in times of emergency? think it quickly in times of emergency? i think it could, yes. was - quickly in times of emergency? i think it could, yes. was it? - quickly in times of emergency? i think it could, yes. was it? i - quickly in times of emergency? i l think it could, yes. was it? i think it was in days. _ think it could, yes. was it? i think it was in days, but _ think it could, yes. was it? i think it was in days, but i _ think it could, yes. was it? i think it was in days, but i can't - think it could, yes. was it? i think it was in days, but i can't run - think it could, yes. was it? i think it was in days, but i can't run in i it was in days, but i can't run in the how quickly.— it was in days, but i can't run in the how quickly. sorry to interrupt. as i sa , the how quickly. sorry to interrupt. as i say. mr— the how quickly. sorry to interrupt. as i say. mr cain. _ the how quickly. sorry to interrupt. as i say, mr cain, i— the how quickly. sorry to interrupt. as i say, mr cain, i want _ the how quickly. sorry to interrupt. as i say, mr cain, i want to - the how quickly. sorry to interrupt. as i say, mr cain, i want to move l the how quickly. sorry to interrupt. | as i say, mr cain, i want to move on and ask you about some of the communications exercises during the pandemic, and i think if we can turn, please, to page. you describe there, you talk about the stay at home, protect the nhs, stave —— save lives campaign, which i'm sure everyone in this room will remember.

if you look at page 98 of your statement, you refer to that campaign having been conceived by what you describe is a small group of political advisers, including you, one or two people from a digital creative agency, who between you put that campaign together. and then at the next, paragraph 99, you refer to the fact that it was well regarded at the time, and people have praised that campaign. do you personally hold the view that that was a successful and effective campaign?— was a successful and effective camaiun? . ~' ., , campaign? yes. i think the only critiaue campaign? yes. i think the only critique we _ campaign? yes. i think the only critique we got _ campaign? yes. i think the only critique we got was _ campaign? yes. i think the only critique we got was that - campaign? yes. i think the only critique we got was that it - campaign? yes. i think the only critique we got was that it was i campaign? yes. i think the only i critique we got was that it was too successful, and subsequently some behaviours were hard to move people out of, but i will push back on that and say, really, we did what it needed us to do. find

and say, really, we did what it needed us to do.— and say, really, we did what it needed us to do. and i want to ask ou a needed us to do. and i want to ask you a little — needed us to do. and i want to ask you a little bit _ needed us to do. and i want to ask you a little bit about _ needed us to do. and i want to ask you a little bit about the _ needed us to do. and i want to ask you a little bit about the middle i you a little bit about the middle section of the campaign slogan, the protect the nhs. we know, of course, we were discussing it a few minutes ago, the need to stop the nhs being overwhelmed was one of the triggers for the lockdown. but it is also right, isn't it, that even at that very early stage of the pandemic, it was known that certain groups within society, elderly people, the disabled, people in care homes and so on, were at a heightened risk from covid. wouldn't it have been better instead of saying protect the nhs, to have come up with some language to encourage people to protect those people who are at the greatest risk from covid? trio. protect those people who are at the greatest risk from covid? title. i greatest risk from covid? no, i think in orji — greatest risk from covid? no, i think in orji respect _ greatest risk from covid? no, i think in orji respect i _ greatest risk from covid? no, i

think in orji respect i don't - greatest risk from covid? no, i l think in orji respect i don't think so. this was about ensuring we had a maximum compliance. it was about ensuring that we were stopping the spread of the virus. that is the best way to protect everybody. the nhs has a very special place and significance in british culture, very powerful, and i think the slogan, we were looking at 9a% of the public understood it and were taking part, and the compliance rate showed it was very successful. you can always do better, but as a campaign, as a call to action, delivering what we needed to do, i generally don't think it could have been much better.— been much better. given that you decided to use _ been much better. given that you decided to use the _ been much better. given that you decided to use the reference - been much better. given that you decided to use the reference to l been much better. given that you i decided to use the reference to the nhs in the slogan, did you consult with the leadership of the nhs about how they can be referred to and how they will be included in the slogan? i didn't directly have conversations

with leaders of the nhs. the government machine will obviously keep everybody informed as to what the plans are, and what we are communicating, and no concerns were conveyed to me at that time. share communicating, and no concerns were conveyed to me at that time.- conveyed to me at that time. are you aware that subsequently _ conveyed to me at that time. are you aware that subsequently and - conveyed to me at that time. are you aware that subsequently and i - conveyed to me at that time. are you aware that subsequently and i think l aware that subsequently and i think during the pandemic, the nhs leadership did criticise this campaign, in particular because the concept of protecting the nhs created a risk that people would delay seeking medical treatment that they needed for other, urgent, reasons not related to covid, such as heart issues or other reasons. did you know that that was a concern that the nhs had and that they were

criticising that they were not consulted. criticising that they were not consulted-— criticising that they were not consulted. , ., ., consulted. only afteri had left government. _ consulted. only afteri had left government, that _ consulted. only afteri had left government, that was - consulted. only afteri had left government, that was brought| consulted. only after i had left i government, that was brought to consulted. only after i had left - government, that was brought to my attention. again, iwould government, that was brought to my attention. again, i would strongly stand by the campaign. i think our overarching goal was to protect and save as many lives as possible, and we believed that this was a messaging campaign did that. i think if we look at why people weren't going to hospital at the time, it was because they were looking at what were in lombardy and elsewhere, and they were frightened. i think there is a false perception that messaging caused fears in people, but if you actually look at the metrics of where fear spikes, fear spikes when the virus spikes. people are very rational. they can see when they are most at risk, and they look to protect themselves in very sensible ways. mr to protect themselves in very sensible ways.— to protect themselves in very sensible ways. to protect themselves in very sensible wa s. ~ ., ., ., sensible ways. mr cain, one of the reasons people — sensible ways. mr cain, one of the reasons people weren't _ sensible ways. mr cain, one of the reasons people weren't going - sensible ways. mr cain, one of the reasons people weren't going to i reasons people weren't going to hospitals is because your campaign was telling them not to use the nhs at that time because it was needed

for the covid pandemic, isn't that right? no, i don't think that is what the campaign is telling people to do. and we were clear throughout covid in interviews and otherforms and we were clear throughout covid in interviews and other forms of messaging that obviously people with serious health concerns should seek help and go to, whether it is emergency care, where ever it is, as they would previously do so. what we were highlighting, you know, there was a broader need people to break contact. that was in order to provide care for those who needed it and that would fundamentally save lives. i'm very proud of what the team achieved during that period. we team achieved during that period. - have evidence that in fact the nhs were so concerned about the impact of this messaging that they had to develop their own communications campaign as it were encouraging people themselves to come back to hospitals with non—thing—mac related

issues.