to be quite defensive in kane seem to be quite defensive in many ways of the prime minister, talking about some of the decisions he made and certainly, his optimism. we talked about not wanting to scare the country too much in terms of rushing into a lockdown and making sure that covid really was as important as it was and it wasn't just another swine flu that the media got worried about and, actually, wasn't a big issue. but thenit actually, wasn't a big issue. but then it came to believe talking about what boris johnson's leadership style was and he was slightly more, well, scathing. i slightly more, well, scathing. i think anyone who has worked with the prime _ think anyone who has worked with the prime minister for a period of time will become exhausted with him, sometimes. he can be quite a challenging character to work with 'ust challenging character to work with just because he will oscillate. he will take — just because he will oscillate. he will take a — just because he will oscillate. he will take a decision from the last person— will take a decision from the last person in— will take a decision from the last person in the room. i think, that is pretty— person in the room. i think, that is pretty well— person in the room. i think, that is pretty well documented. in terms of his style _ pretty well documented. in terms of his style of— pretty well documented. in terms of his style of operating. and it is rather— his style of operating. and it is rather exhausting from time to time. ithink— rather exhausting from time to time. llhink whal— rather exhausting from time to time. i think what will probably be clear in covid, — i think what will probably be clear in covid, il— i think what will probably be clear in covid, it was the wrong crisis

for this— in covid, it was the wrong crisis for this prime minister's skill set, which _ for this prime minister's skill set, which is _ for this prime minister's skill set, which is different, i think, from not potentially being up to the job of being _ not potentially being up to the job of being prime minister. what not potentially being up to the '0b of being prime minister. what you mean as the _ of being prime minister. what you mean as the wrong _ of being prime minister. what you mean as the wrong crisis - of being prime minister. what you mean as the wrong crisis for - of being prime minister. what you mean as the wrong crisis for this | mean as the wrong crisis for this prime minister's skill set? remake make you straightforward english, please? i make you straightforward english, lease? ~ , make you straightforward english, lease? ,, , , ., please? i think is somebody who would often _ please? i think is somebody who would often delay _ please? i think is somebody who would often delay making - please? i think is somebody who - would often delay making decisions. it often seek counsel from multiple sources and changes mind on issues. you took up most of the questions for this afternoon but we did get about half an hour of dominic cummings before we broke for the lunch break. now, he was boris johnson's chief of staff and he did leave under a bit more of a cloud when he resigned back in november 2020. years of the interesting character here in the uk had a very controversial figure. character here in the uk had a very controversialfigure. was by boris johnson's sidle through the brex

that campaign and, in effect, were seen as borisjohnson's right—hand man, certainly during the beginning parts of the pandemic. and, as i say, eventually, the relationship broke down and he left his job back in november 2020. since then, he has been pretty critical of boris johnson and today, probably not surprisingly, he was also pretty critical of the structure of the british government. i critical of the structure of the british government.- critical of the structure of the british government. i would say, overall, british government. i would say, overall. it _ british government. i would say, overall. it is _ british government. i would say, overall, it is widespread - british government. i would say, overall, it is widespread failure l overall, it is widespread failure but pockets of excellent people and pockets of excellent teams giving excellent work within an overall dysfunctional system. in excellent work within an overall dysfunctional system.— dysfunctional system. in your statement. — dysfunctional system. in your statement, you _ dysfunctional system. in your statement, you describe - dysfunctional system. in your| statement, you describe how, following this e—mail, that the prime minister, was initially agreeing with the sentiment of your trenchant views on aspects of the government machine, listened to, to use your word, poppins and then got cold feet. what are poppins?

obviously, the context for this document is it comes after eight weeks of a nightmare situation, kicked off by the pm... white at apologise, mr cummings, whatare poppins? get poppins are what people in private office referred to in the prime minister would make a decision about something, some element of the system, often in the cabinet office, would not like what had been agreed, and, in the best sir humphrey, yes, minister, style, they would wait for me and other people to not be around the prime minister and they would p0p the prime minister and they would pop in to see the prime minister and take my dear prime minister, i think that this decision really wasn't the best idea. very brave, prime minister. best idea. very brave, prime minister-— best idea. very brave, prime minister. ~ ., , ., ., minister. we are 'ust going to interact that _ minister. we are just going to interact that because - minister. we are just going to interact that because were . minister. we are just going to i interact that because were going minister. we are just going to - interact that because were going to go live to the inquiry, which is resuming again. from march, april, may onwards. why was cobra not

effective in the context of the coronavirus crisis?— coronavirus crisis? there are multiple _ coronavirus crisis? there are multiple reasons. _ coronavirus crisis? there are multiple reasons. so, - coronavirus crisis? there are multiple reasons. so, one i coronavirus crisis? there are - multiple reasons. so, one obvious thing was that, there is a technology called strap, which were briefly... technology called strap, which were briefl ., ., ., ., briefly... no, we are not going there. briefly... no, we are not going there- if— briefly... no, we are not going there- lfyou — briefly... no, we are not going there. if you wish _ briefly... no, we are not going there. if you wish to _ briefly... no, we are not going there. if you wish to refer - briefly... no, we are not going there. if you wish to refer to i briefly... no, we are not going. there. if you wish to refer to the fact that there are levels of national—security sensitivity, to say there are levels of national security sensitivity. you might as you say, sir. so that is one problem which means that both the data that goes into number ten, sorry, into cobra, is strictly controlled. and so is the hardware, strictly controlled. so there are physical and data limitations on how cobra work. entirely properly, because of the requirement to keep the physical area secure from russia and china

and blah blah blah. ride. so that is and blah blah blah. ride. so that is a practical consideration. yes. and blah blah blah. ride. so that is a practical consideration.— a practical consideration. yes, also it 'ust a practical consideration. yes, also itiust didn't _ a practical consideration. yes, also itjust didn't scale. _ a practical consideration. yes, also itjust didn't scale. so _ a practical consideration. yes, also itjust didn't scale. so it _ a practical consideration. yes, also itjust didn't scale. so it was - a practical consideration. yes, also itjust didn't scale. so it was used i itjust didn't scale. so it was used to dealing with relatively small things like floods, like terrorist attack with five people getting killed or something like that. but, with a crisis like this which is much more on the scale of a wall, it wasjust... itjust couldn't... it physically couldn't was just... it just couldn't. .. it physically couldn't function, wasjust... itjust couldn't... it physically couldn't function, data —wise, it couldn't function. of the system is going in and out of it didn't scale. system is going in and out of it didn't scale-— didn't scale. was the by the to attendin: didn't scale. was the by the to attending cobra _ didn't scale. was the by the to attending cobra on _ didn't scale. was the by the to attending cobra on account - didn't scale. was the by the to attending cobra on account of| didn't scale. was the by the to i attending cobra on account of its physical location? it is attending cobra on account of its physical location?— physical location? it is hard to sa . i physical location? it is hard to say- i mean. _ physical location? it is hard to say. i mean, he— physical location? it is hard to say. i mean, he certainly- physical location? it is hard to - say. i mean, he certainly preferred to be in his study. and he didn't like going to cobra. i deliberately put the... i refer to it earlier on company created the access and x0 structure, i deliberately put that in cobra, so that they were kind of

live screens on the wall. we could record actual notes in real time that i was just a more effective way of handling the ministers and handling the decision—making. he was not enormously keen on it. izebra handling the decision-making. he was not enormously keen on it.— not enormously keen on it. cobra was still used from _ not enormously keen on it. cobra was still used from march _ not enormously keen on it. cobra was still used from march 2020 _ not enormously keen on it. cobra was still used from march 2020 onwards, | still used from march 2020 onwards, despite the institution of the 9:15am daily meetings in downing street. was an important part of the continuation the cobra system the fact that it allowed the devolved administrations to take part in the process? administrations to take part in the rocess? ., . g ., process? correct. my sort of impression. _ process? correct. my sort of impression, slash _ process? correct. my sort of impression, slash memory, | process? correct. my sort of. impression, slash memory, is process? correct. my sort of - impression, slash memory, is that, from roughly speaking, mid—march, the main function of cobra, after that, was actually the sort of, just the process, of handling it. i'm not sure if i even went back to cobra for covid after something like that 15th of march. you

for covid after something like that 15th of march.— 15th of march. you ran down the cobra system — 15th of march. you ran down the cobra system because _ 15th of march. you ran down the cobra system because your - 15th of march. you ran down thej cobra system because your view 15th of march. you ran down the - cobra system because your view was that, with the devolved administrations party to that process, there was an unacceptable risk of leaks. you are violently opposed to the fact that the media was brief, afterwards. and you were against, therefore, the continued use of cobra as a crisis resolution machinery. i use of cobra as a crisis resolution machinery-— use of cobra as a crisis resolution machine . ., ., ., , machinery. i would say that that is overstating — machinery. i would say that that is overstating things. _ machinery. i would say that that is overstating things. first _ machinery. i would say that that is overstating things. first of- machinery. i would say that that is overstating things. first of all, - machinery. i would say that that is overstating things. first of all, i i overstating things. first of all, i didn't have the authority to run it down and didn't run it down. i think it is more accurate to say that it was superseded by broader things. superseded by the 8:50am meeting that i started. the 9:15am meeting. how those two meetings evolved into the covid task force or i did not run it down. it continued and i am sure, in some ways, it did very useful work. and also, it is

important to point out, unlike other parts of the system that i have been very critical of, the people who ran cobra, in my opinion, did an extremely professionaljob. the problem is not, in this instance, similar to the cabinet office where a lot of the people were unsuitable, the problem he was a much more structural one, that the cobra thing just didn't scale. to what was needed. ., , ., , ., needed. could be at 22, please of our needed. could be at 22, please of your letter— needed. could be at 22, please of your letter to _ needed. could be at 22, please of your letter to the _ needed. could be at 22, please of your letter to the inquiry, - needed. could be at 22, please of your letter to the inquiry, 48313? | your letter to the inquiry, 48313? this is a message, what's up between yourself and mrjohnson dated the 12th of march 2020. get back sorry. it has not popped up. i cannot see. if it is important. you're watching the covid inquiry. as you give your brief warning. we are hearing is a very strong lime edge today from time to time as evidence is read out, just to give you a warning that this is the live feed and we have no control over that. this is the live feed and we have no control overthat. not, this is the live feed and we have no control over that. not, capital

letters on the phone all the time, either so people cannot tell you the truth. well, you did run down the cobra system, mr cummings. you thought that if the cobra system continued, people either would not tell the truth all the devolved administrations would lick to the media or brief the media thereafter. —— leaked to the media. i media or brief the media thereafter. -- leaked to the media.— -- leaked to the media. i thought meetinas -- leaked to the media. i thought meetings that _ -- leaked to the media. i thought meetings that we _ -- leaked to the media. i thought meetings that we had _ -- leaked to the media. i thought meetings that we had with - -- leaked to the media. i thought meetings that we had with the . -- leaked to the media. i thought| meetings that we had with the pm were very potemkin and scripted. having had these pointless things. you then had all sorts of people running straight out and gabbling to the media about what had just been said in a completely undisciplined way. which then undermine public confidence in things and caused a lot of trouble but, with respect, would not say this is running down the covid system. it was completely unable to cope with the scale of the crisis and a different system needed to be created. just a simple thing,

we could not show the pm crucial data in the cobra venom because it could not be piped through because of the restrictions.— of the restrictions. you're going out to the _ of the restrictions. you're going out to the practical— of the restrictions. you're going i out to the practical considerations and practical difficulties of which you spoke earlier. could we have 174673? page one. this is an e—mail between yourself, i think the helen mcnamara and others dated the 13th of march. your e—mails in the middle of march. your e—mails in the middle of the page. the pm view and mine on those cobras is that they are hopeless, as decision—making entities, and actively cause trouble for comms, given theyjust brief immediately. so, there you are focusing on not on the practical difficulties of the data for the national security restrictions over the use of the room, but because you

thought they were hopeless as decision—making entities and they cause trouble for cons. yes. on the 15th of march. _ cause trouble for cons. yes. on the 15th of march, and _ cause trouble for cons. yes. on the 15th of march, and a _ cause trouble for cons. yes on the 15th of march, and a whatsapp thread, numberten 15th of march, and a whatsapp thread, number ten action, 236, 371, page 52. this is a whatsapp centre after mark said well, now lord said by the cabinet secretary, had produced a note to the prime minister concerning the committee structure moving forward. the institution of something cold ministerial implementation groups and the 9:15am meetings. pm, it would be good if you could sign off the note from

mark on moving to the next phase structures etc, ideally before the meeting this pm so we can get things moving on that. dominic cummings, can you send on whatsapp my work computer that we flat, can't recharge foot of the draft i saw looked as it was basically drafted by us. who is ours? i’m looked as it was basically drafted by us. who is ours?— by us. who is ours? i'm not sure exactly but _ by us. who is ours? i'm not sure exactly but some _ by us. who is ours? i'm not sure exactly but some combination i l by us. who is ours? i'm not sure - exactly but some combination i think of me imran, ben warner.— of me imran, ben warner. accept it is too keen — of me imran, ben warner. accept it is too keen on _ of me imran, ben warner. accept it is too keen on cobras _ of me imran, ben warner. accept it is too keen on cobras with - of me imran, ben warner. accept it is too keen on cobras with da. - of me imran, ben warner. accept it is too keen on cobras with da. the | is too keen on cobras with da. the pm daily meetings must be in the cabinet room with spider veins and screens, not in cobra where nobody can take laptops and phones. is a clear reference to the practical considerations but also, you were not keen on the devolved administrations being concerned in attending cobra. iirla. administrations being concerned in attending cobra.— attending cobra. no, that is not... the are attending cobra. no, that is not... they are different _ attending cobra. no, that is not... they are different issues. - attending cobra. no, that is not... they are different issues. if- attending cobra. no, that is not... they are different issues. if you i they are different issues. if you are having meetings to actually figure out the truth then meetings

like that have to be conducted in a very different way. they cannot be one of these things with 50 people one of these things with 50 people on a video conference with the da when things immediately... those da meetings were not meetings to try to figure out the truth about heart issues. there are meetings as part of the performance and coordination and the constitutional function and my concern was that even at this late stage in the crisis, there are a lot of people in the cabinet office were still fixated on the kind of potemkin, maintaining the potemkin aspects rather than actually getting to the heart of things and we could actually not get to the heart of things in that room because you literally couldn't take in the information show it to the pm and have a proper discussion about it. ~ , , ., ., and have a proper discussion about it. y ., and have a proper discussion about it. why did you want michael gove to be in charge — it. why did you want michael gove to be in charge of— it. why did you want michael gove to be in charge of regular _ it. why did you want michael gove to be in charge of regular devolved i be in charge of regular devolved administration updates and not the prime minister?— administration updates and not the prime minister? gove would handle it ten better. prime minister? gove would handle it ten better- and _ prime minister? gove would handle it ten better. and what _ prime minister? gove would handle it ten better. and what ten _ prime minister? gove would handle it ten better. and what ten times i ten better. and what ten times

better? handle _ ten better. and what ten times better? handle the _ ten better. and what ten times better? handle the aspect i ten better. and what ten times better? handle the aspect of. ten better. and what ten times i better? handle the aspect of dealing with the devolved _ better? handle the aspect of dealing with the devolved administrations. i with the devolved administrations. slow down, please, mr cummings. had more experience than anybody in that room, the briefing them because he was in their daily through 2019 is only that you understand the whole rhythm, the process, the structure, the staff, and itjust seemed like an obvious sort of way of divvying up an obvious sort of way of divvying up responsibilities. was the chancellor of the duchy of lancaster, was he not? was he the prime minister?— lancaster, was he not? was he the prime minister?- what i lancaster, was he not? was he the prime minister?- what are i lancaster, was he not? was he the prime minister? what? what are the prime minister? what? what are the prime minister? what? what are the prime minister? _ prime minister? what? what are the prime minister? you _ prime minister? what? what are the prime minister? you must _ prime minister? ii�*i[ what are the prime minister? you must obviously not. i've made did you not want the prime minister to be in a meeting room at administrations, the constituent parts of the united kingdom? i constituent parts of the united kinudom? ., ., kingdom? i thought it... i thought it preferable _ kingdom? i thought it... i thought it preferable to _ kingdom? i thought it... i thought it preferable to have _ kingdom? i thought it... i thought it preferable to have the _ kingdom? i thought it... i thought it preferable to have the prime i it preferable to have the prime minister actually focused on the

impending catastrophe that we faced on that day and i thought that, generally speaking, him talking to the das did not advance any cause. the devolved administrations had an entitlement to confer with the prime minister of the united kingdom in the face of this unprecedented crisis. , .. , crisis. they did, and they did confer, crisis. they did, and they did confer. but _ crisis. they did, and they did confer, but generally - crisis. they did, and they did i confer, but generally speaking it was better to confer with officials and michael gove in my opinion. m65 and michael gove in my opinion. was number ten — and michael gove in my opinion. was numberten any better? and michael gove in my opinion. was number ten any better? you describe it as a hopeless structure for dealing with a major crisis. what did you mean by that? i dealing with a major crisis. what did you mean by that?— dealing with a major crisis. what did you mean by that? i don't know how much detail _ did you mean by that? i don't know how much detail you _ did you mean by that? i don't know how much detail you want - did you mean by that? i don't know how much detail you want me i did you mean by that? i don't know how much detail you want me to i did you mean by that? i don't knowj how much detail you want me to go into. ~ , .. . how much detail you want me to go into. ~ , .,, ., how much detail you want me to go into. ~ , ., ,, into. why was it a hopeless structure. _ into. why was it a hopeless structure, be _ into. why was it a hopeless structure, be succinct? i into. why was it a hopeless i structure, be succinct? well... numberten — structure, be succinct? well... number ten is _ structure, be succinct? well... number ten is not _ structure, be succinct? well... number ten is not configured i

structure, be succinct? well... | number ten is not configured to structure, be succinct? well... i number ten is not configured to be the nerve centre of a national crisis