have heard, the pandemic. as we have heard, the lockdown was caused by an understanding that there was a need to present —— prevent the nhs being overwhelmed. with that in mind, could we look at page 39 of your witness statement? but five or six lines from the bottom, it says, i do not remember anyone working in the centre or who was part of the conversations who had a detailed understanding of the way the nhs operated. this is not unusual or unique to that time. social policy and the operational management of the state is also —— always underrepresented in the

centre of power, whereas the treasury, foreign policy and national security are overrepresented. just going back to the first sentence, you say you don't remember anyone working in the centre or who was part of those conversations who had a detailed understanding of the way the nhs operated. given all we have heard about the importance of the nhs and notjust in terms of caring for people, but the detail, whether it was going to be overwhelmed or not, thatis was going to be overwhelmed or not, that is very striking statement. yes. it was an observation at the time _ yes. it was an observation at the time and — yes. it was an observation at the time and is — yes. it was an observation at the time and is striking in retrospect as welt — time and is striking in retrospect as welt i— time and is striking in retrospect as well. i think it probably goes to what _ as well. i think it probably goes to what needs to be different in it should — what needs to be different in it should not be possible to start from that primary level of ignorance. it causes _ that primary level of ignorance. it causes problems. and it was something we felt very strongly at the time _

something we felt very strongly at the time thatjust something we felt very strongly at the time that just actually having people _ the time that just actually having people who were literate in the nhs would _ people who were literate in the nhs would have been more useful. no doubt would have been more useful. doubt there would have been more useful. iiif? doubt there were attempts to educate the prime minister, his advisers, his ministers in the way the nhs worked and we have seen for example simon stevens came to meetings, of course, chris whitty. was that a sticking plaster that did the job or do you think there was still a deficit that led to imperfections in policy decisions? i deficit that led to imperfections in policy decisions?— policy decisions? i think if you are startin: policy decisions? i think if you are starting again. — policy decisions? i think if you are starting again, you _ policy decisions? i think if you are starting again, you might- policy decisions? i think if you are starting again, you might think i starting again, you might think quite _ starting again, you might think quite differently about what is the skills _ quite differently about what is the skills and — quite differently about what is the skills and expertise and knowledge that ought to be available immediately for a prime minister to help support them on the business of the day, _ help support them on the business of the day, whatever it is? there has been _ the day, whatever it is? there has been a _ the day, whatever it is? there has been a military attache in the prime minister's _ been a military attache in the prime minister's private office for a long time for— minister's private office for a long time for a — minister's private office for a long time for a very good because when the prime — time for a very good because when the prime minister takes decisions relating _ the prime minister takes decisions relating to— the prime minister takes decisions relating to the deployment of the military, — relating to the deployment of the military, having somebody who can sit by _ military, having somebody who can

sit by the _ military, having somebody who can sit by the side of the prime minister— sit by the side of the prime minister and translate and translate and explain and bridge that gap is very important and useful. not my place _ very important and useful. not my place and — very important and useful. not my place and i— very important and useful. not my place and i wouldn't be suggesting a need for— place and i wouldn't be suggesting a need for a _ place and i wouldn't be suggesting a need for a series of attack shows, but i _ need for a series of attack shows, but i think— need for a series of attack shows, but i think this is an endemic problem _ but i think this is an endemic problem that having more actual operational and detailed experience of important things for our country, it wiii— of important things for our country, it will be better if the prime minister— it will be better if the prime minister could have those in—house as weit— minister could have those in—house as well as _ minister could have those in—house as well as absolutely, yes, always should _ as well as absolutely, yes, always should be — as well as absolutely, yes, always should be relying on the chief medicai— should be relying on the chief medical officer and the secretary of state for— medical officer and the secretary of state for health. what in my view you don't— state for health. what in my view you don't want to number 10 or the cabinet _ you don't want to number 10 or the cabinet office ever to be is a sort of mini _ cabinet office ever to be is a sort of mini replication of the entirety of mini replication of the entirety of whitehall. good government works when everybody is doing theirjobs well and _ when everybody is doing theirjobs well and the centre is doing itsjob well and the centre is doing itsjob well and _ well and the centre is doing itsjob well and trying to recreate everything in the centre of whitehall as i think probably this experience shows in a pretty gruesome way does not work. let me shift focusiust _ gruesome way does not work. let me shift focus just a _ gruesome way does not work. let me shift focus just a little _ gruesome way does not work. let me shift focusjust a little bit. _ gruesome way does not work. let me shift focusjust a little bit. still - shift focus just a little bit. still on narrowed perspectives. but now on

that type of narrowed perspective where there is a failure properly to consider certain groups within society. and before turning to specifics, let me take you to one general observation you make. page 53 of your statement. at the bottom, paragraph 106. and you say this. i remember at the time feeling as if while there was undoubtedly sympathy, and i think you're talking about sympathy amongst the decision—makers, sympathy for the differential impacts on women, poorer people, how covid was disproportionately harming black and asian communities, when it was raised, it was treated as if these were naturally occurring phenomena, rather than the consequences of deliberate choices, albeit often historic. and you do not think the

impacts on women and children were properly appreciated even much later in the process. it is that term naturally occurring phenomena that stands out. can you explain what you mean by that? 50 stands out. can you explain what you mean by that?— mean by that? so what i mean is i think there _ mean by that? so what i mean is i think there was _ mean by that? so what i mean is i think there was not _ mean by that? so what i mean is i think there was not a _ mean by that? so what i mean is i think there was not a sufficient. think there was not a sufficient understanding that government in the way this— understanding that government in the way this it _ understanding that government in the way this it was making decisions at that time _ way this it was making decisions at that time was either compounding or correcting _ that time was either compounding or correcting inequality. and i don't think— correcting inequality. and i don't think there was enough understanding of the _ think there was enough understanding of the impact of what the government does or— of the impact of what the government does or how— of the impact of what the government does or how our country works in the day-to-day_ does or how our country works in the day—to—day and then enough of a questioning look at whether the decisions — questioning look at whether the decisions and actions of the government were making that worse or better _ government were making that worse or better and _ government were making that worse or better. and that might not have been the way _ better. and that might not have been the way that other people would phrase _ the way that other people would phrase it. — the way that other people would phrase it, but i would commend that we were _ phrase it, but i would commend that we were not, there was not enough mindfulness about trying to address inequality— mindfulness about trying to address inequality as opposed to compounding it without _ inequality as opposed to compounding it without really noticing it. so it without really noticing it. perhaps it without really noticing it. sr perhaps there was not an understanding of what the

government, the choice the government, the choice the government made, just as in the way that historic choices earlier governments had made was driving this change?— governments had made was driving this change? yes. we spoke earlier about the reports you did cover the evidence you took, if you like, about the over talking of women in the cabinet office and the fact they were not present at meetings and so on. i said we would return to the causation issue if you like of what effect you thought that was actually having, quite apart from on policies, quite apart from the effect it's having on those concerned. and perhaps we can look, please, at page 103 of your statement, page 52. and in this paragraph, you detail a series of policy areas which you think were

affected. you say in terms of the policy response that the exclusion of a female perspective led to significant negative consequences, including the lack of thought given to childcare in the context of school closures, a serious lack of thinking about domestic abuse and the vulnerable, about carers and informal networks for how people look after each other in families and communities. you also say insufficient thinking about single parents alongside disproportionate thinking about football, and you mention a lack of guidance for women who might be pregnant and so on. so at the moment, dealing with those things cumulatively, can you tell us a little bit more about your concerns at the time? i

a little bit more about your concerns at the time? i could see that not only _ concerns at the time? i could see that not only was _ concerns at the time? i could see that not only was it _ concerns at the time? i could see that not only was it that - concerns at the time? i could see| that not only was it that decisions were _ that not only was it that decisions were being made that didn't think about— were being made that didn't think about these impacts, the sort of absence — about these impacts, the sort of absence from the room was even more problematic _ absence from the room was even more problematic. i didn't actually believe — problematic. i didn't actually believe that decision—makers were witfuiiy— believe that decision—makers were wilfully and deliberately deciding to cause harm to particular groups, but that— to cause harm to particular groups, but that it — to cause harm to particular groups, but that it wasn't even considered as a reat— but that it wasn't even considered as a real problem. and i should say i as a real problem. and i should say i have _ as a real problem. and i should say i have talked a lot about women in this statement, but the issue of ethnicity— this statement, but the issue of ethnicity and the divergent impact of covid _ ethnicity and the divergent impact of covid and different communities was something that we were really concerned — was something that we were really concerned about at the time as well. let'sjust_ concerned about at the time as well. let'sjust get to concerned about at the time as well. let's just get to that now. so concerned about at the time as well. let'sjust get to that now. so if concerned about at the time as well. let's just get to that now. so if we can look, please, tab 53 of the bundle. document 286 —— 286042.

what we can see is this is another response, isn't it, to that e—mail we looked at earlier about women at the centre? and i think we saw catherine hammond's response before lunch, but this is a different one from another civil servant called alexandra burns. and in the first paragraph, she addresses your e—mail. about impacts on women and so on. then she goes on and we will note that this is stilljust so on. then she goes on and we will note that this is still just the 13th of april. to say separately, i feel like there is an issue wobbling on another equality dimension, race. lots of discussion started publicly about the fact it seems to be hitting ethnic minorities harder. she doesn't know whether it is true or not. although she clearly thinks it may well be. she can understand

the problem. then she says, do you know if there is any work looking at this at all at the moment. tell us, is that something that you took forward or you are aware that others took forward? forward or you are aware that others took forward ? this forward or you are aware that others took forward?— forward or you are aware that others took forward? this is a not uncommon moment when — took forward? this is a not uncommon moment when another _ took forward? this is a not uncommon moment when another of _ took forward? this is a not uncommon moment when another of the - took forward? this is a not uncommon moment when another of the private l moment when another of the private secretaries _ moment when another of the private secretaries in number 10 is really identifying a problem and highlighting it. quite helpfully, i think— highlighting it. quite helpfully, i think she was the first person to really— think she was the first person to really start to worry and raise this as an _ really start to worry and raise this as an issue — really start to worry and raise this as an issue. from what i recall, she and i_ as an issue. from what i recall, she and i then— as an issue. from what i recall, she and i then spoke about it. she explained _ and i then spoke about it. she explained a bit more what she was worried _ explained a bit more what she was worried about. i would have to check the record _ worried about. i would have to check the record again, but i think this started — the record again, but i think this started to — the record again, but i think this started to check the data and get a better— started to check the data and get a better understanding of the data and then trying to commit lots of ways, that was— then trying to commit lots of ways, that was the way in which you hi —— you try— that was the way in which you hi —— you try to— that was the way in which you hi —— you try to highlight a problem or issue _ you try to highlight a problem or issue at— you try to highlight a problem or issue at the time, but that is another— issue at the time, but that is another good example of her doing that. �* . another good example of her doing that. . ., ., �* ., , that. again, it wouldn't have been our role that. again, it wouldn't have been your role personally _ that. again, it wouldn't have been your role personally to _ that. again, it wouldn't have been your role personally to have - your role personally to have investigated these matters, but have made sure that other people work.

yes, so quite often, a thing as you will see _ yes, so quite often, a thing as you will see through the record, what i am doing — will see through the record, what i am doing is— will see through the record, what i am doing is hearing about something —— | am doing is hearing about something -- ithink— am doing is hearing about something -- i think as — am doing is hearing about something —— i think as you will see. someone raises _ —— i think as you will see. someone raises an— —— i think as you will see. someone raises an issue _ —— i think as you will see. someone raises an issue with me and i work out where — raises an issue with me and i work out where to— raises an issue with me and i work out where to put it and how to make sure that _ out where to put it and how to make sure that we — out where to put it and how to make sure that we are is always trying to do our— sure that we are is always trying to do our best— sure that we are is always trying to do our best efforts and think in the biggest _ do our best efforts and think in the biggest way possible. so that is probably— biggest way possible. so that is probably howl biggest way possible. so that is probably how i try to work in generat— probably how i try to work in general and it is definitely, given very little — general and it is definitely, given very little of this was under my operational management committee it was one _ operational management committee it was one of— operational management committee it was one of the things i thought was how i_ was one of the things i thought was how i could — was one of the things i thought was how i could contribute at the most —— contribute the most of the time. switching _ —— contribute the most of the time. switching back if we may because we were talking about issues about women and those lists of issues that you felt were being overlooked. this is again something that you sent e—mails about and took action about at the time. so if we could go please to tab 37 of the bundle.

308302. an e—mail you sent ten days orso 308302. an e—mail you sent ten days or so after the e—mail we were just looking at, towards the end of april. and you say that you think that we should make a list of all the things that have happened because of lack of gender diversity and decision makers. it isn't enough that we keep observing this phenomenon. it doesn't matter if the political team have not asked or don't seem interested as civil servants, we have a responsibility to find a way of building this and put in so that the country gets the best outcome, that is not optional. and then you start by making a list of issues which mirrors some of the points that are in your witness statement. confusion about access to abortion, guidance on pregnancy. and the second one, not making provision

for victims of domestic abuse. so do we see here you trying to start a process of bringing these issues more to light? 50 process of bringing these issues more to light?— process of bringing these issues more to light? so this is an e-mail to another— more to light? so this is an e-mail to another great _ more to light? so this is an e-mail to another great example - more to light? so this is an e-mail to another great example of - more to light? so this is an e-maill to another great example of people who run _ to another great example of people who run towards a problem. she is actually— who run towards a problem. she is actually a — who run towards a problem. she is actually a performer, she had been the principal private secretary to the principal private secretary to the previous private —— the previous private _ the previous private —— the previous private secretary and she stepped up and volunteered to help. so this is and volunteered to help. so this is a person— and volunteered to help. so this is a person i— and volunteered to help. so this is a person i know quite well, which is probably— a person i know quite well, which is probably why the tone of the e—mail is quite _ probably why the tone of the e—mail is quite brisk, i think. probably why the tone of the e—mail is quite brisk, ithink. i probably why the tone of the e—mail is quite brisk, i think. i certainly wasn't _ is quite brisk, i think. i certainly wasn't criticising her. i think, is quite brisk, i think. i certainly wasn't criticising her. ithink, i mean. — wasn't criticising her. ithink, i mean. far— wasn't criticising her. ithink, i mean, far from it. wasn't criticising her. ithink, i mean, farfrom it. ithink wasn't criticising her. ithink, i mean, far from it. ithink what wasn't criticising her. ithink, i mean, far from it. i think what has happened — mean, far from it. i think what has happened here is she and i have had a conversation and we have brought raising _ a conversation and we have brought raising things was enough and then now raising things was enough and then how i_ raising things was enough and then how i am _ raising things was enough and then now i am thinking that from what she hasjust_ now i am thinking that from what she has just said — now i am thinking that from what she hasjust said to me, that is not enough — hasjust said to me, that is not enough so— hasjust said to me, that is not enough. so we think about what we do now? _ enough. so we think about what we do now? and _ enough. so we think about what we do now? and this whole time, as is pretty— now? and this whole time, as is pretty normal in the civil service

committee try something and it doesn't — committee try something and it doesn't work so you try something else _ doesn't work so you try something else and — doesn't work so you try something else. and you try something else. and that _ else. and you try something else. and that is — else. and you try something else. and that is what she and i are trying — and that is what she and i are trying to— and that is what she and i are trying to do here. she at the time was working in the team who were providing — was working in the team who were providing the advice of covid and it was making sure from her perspective, as far as she could, that these — perspective, as far as she could, that these considerations were baked into the _ that these considerations were baked into the advice and thinking. and the theme of— into the advice and thinking. fific the theme of this e—mail into the advice and thinking. fific the theme of this e—mail is, as into the advice and thinking. elic the theme of this e—mail is, as you say, it is not enoughjust the theme of this e—mail is, as you say, it is not enough just to notice these problems or even to talk about them. we have got to do something about them. was further action taken going forward on these issues either by you or by others? so going forward on these issues either by you or by others?— going forward on these issues either by you or by others? so by her, yes. and i'm by you or by others? so by her, yes. and i'm pretty _ by you or by others? so by her, yes. and i'm pretty sure _ by you or by others? so by her, yes. and i'm pretty sure the _ by you or by others? so by her, yes. and i'm pretty sure the record - by you or by others? so by her, yes. and i'm pretty sure the record will. and i'm pretty sure the record will show— and i'm pretty sure the record will show that— and i'm pretty sure the record will show that in terms of what then started — show that in terms of what then started to — show that in terms of what then started to feature in the advice that came from the task force. one ofthe that came from the task force. one of the issues _ that came from the task force. one of the issues we _ that came from the task force. one of the issues we see _ that came from the task force. ©"i.e: of the issues we see listed there which you have referred to more than

once in your statement is the question of domestic abuse. and i think in another e—mail, you said you thought it was very likely that people had died because not enough had been done to think about how to address the problem is that group faced. i'm not going to take you to it, do you recall that? i do faced. i'm not going to take you to it, do you recall that?— it, do you recall that? i do recall that, i think _ it, do you recall that? i do recall that, l think that _ it, do you recall that? i do recall that, i think that was _ it, do you recall that? i do recall that, i think that was me - it, do you recall that? i do recalll that, i think that was me reacting to a cabinet minute where i think the prime — to a cabinet minute where i think the prime minister had said that no-one — the prime minister had said that no—one had been harmed or something like that _ no—one had been harmed or something like that. and i felt that was not, the cabinet minute needs to be accurate — the cabinet minute needs to be accurate i_ the cabinet minute needs to be accurate. i was concerned about obviousiy — accurate. i was concerned about obviously that i've thought domestic abuse _ obviously that i've thought domestic abuse was _ obviously that i've thought domestic abuse was sadly bound to have increased —— ithought. ithink abuse was sadly bound to have increased —— i thought. i think it is one _ increased —— i thought. i think it is one of— increased —— i thought. i think it is one of those areas where if we had just— is one of those areas where if we had just had a month more or six weeks _ had just had a month more or six weeks more _ had just had a month more or six weeks more and the sort of people that think— weeks more and the sort of people that think properly about these issues — that think properly about these issues in — that think properly about these issues in the centre of whitehall, of which — issues in the centre of whitehall, of which there were many, then we might— of which there were many, then we might have — of which there were many, then we might have been able to do something

that mitigated that harm and that is one of— that mitigated that harm and that is one of the _ that mitigated that harm and that is one of the things that, well, it is obviously— one of the things that, well, it is obviously awful that we were not able to _ obviously awful that we were not able to think ahead enough in advance _ able to think ahead enough in advance. and that then, all those people _ advance. and that then, all those people came to further harm. just ursuin: people came to further harm. just pursuing that _ people came to further harm. jitst pursuing that issue a little further. if we can look at paragraph 45 of your statement, please, on page 25. so it is the bottom page. in fact, i think the bottom four lines. do you haveit? think the bottom four lines. do you have it? you say, i remember it being far too difficult to get people to pay attention to domestic violence on lockdown. the number 10 private secretary hannah young having to push back against the assertion that it was not an urgent problem because it was, quotes, not showing up in the data. and you say it is only because of her relentless

pushing of the issue that there was eventually a summit on hidden arms. that is precisely the kind of thing you say, as you have said now, where even more weeks to plan and it may have been possible to avert that harm. . . .. have been possible to avert that harm. , ., ,, , ., harm. yes, and i think it is also, eo - le harm. yes, and i think it is also, people don't _ harm. yes, and i think it is also, people don't want _ harm. yes, and i think it is also, people don't want to _ harm. yes, and i think it is also, people don't want to think - harm. yes, and i think it is also, people don't want to think about these _ people don't want to think about these things. so you don't want to think— these things. so you don't want to think about — these things. so you don't want to think about awful things happening to children and partners and parents in their— to children and partners and parents in their home. and if you are kind ofa in their home. and if you are kind of a more — in their home. and if you are kind of a more experienced civil servant or somebody who has worked lots, you have a _ or somebody who has worked lots, you have a different sense unfortunately of these _ have a different sense unfortunately of these things. and i think it goes to who _ of these things. and i think it goes to who is _ of these things. and i think it goes to who is involved in advising decision—making and are they able to brin- decision—making and are they able to bring the _ decision—making and are they able to bring the kind of full gamut of what the state _ bring the kind of full gamut of what the state actually knows about what sometimes happens? and i feel that it was— sometimes happens? and i feel that it was quite lopsided at this point. we were _ it was quite lopsided at this point. we were looking at harm through a very narrow— we were looking at harm through a very narrow lens without realising that, _ very narrow lens without realising

that, of— very narrow lens without realising that, of course, there can be all sorts— that, of course, there can be all sorts of— that, of course, there can be all sorts of other consequences of things— sorts of other consequences of things you cannot see. one sorts of other consequences of things you cannot see.- sorts of other consequences of things you cannot see. one of the hrases things you cannot see. one of the phrases used _ things you cannot see. one of the phrases used in _ things you cannot see. one of the phrases used in that _ things you cannot see. one of the phrases used in that part - things you cannot see. one of the phrases used in that part of- things you cannot see. one of the phrases used in that part of your. phrases used in that part of your statement was that this issue wasn't considered because it was, quotes, not showing up in the data. and another theme of your witness statement is this idea of, well, what is a countable thing, what should we be restricting our concern to so—called countable things or should we be thinking more broadly? and if we can look at another document. tab 11 of the bundle. 286019. we see here another of your e—mails. again, from april. you are trying, i suggest, e—mails. again, from april. you are trying, isuggest, to e—mails. again, from april. you are trying, i suggest, to suggest —— to capture a series of non—countable or

less countable things and saying, let's put these on the —— alongside hospital beds, deaths and so on. —— on the board. and what you said a moment ago, is this the type of thinking that you would have liked to have done if there had been another month or two to prepare for the pandemic?— another month or two to prepare for the pandemic? yes, absolutely. this is an e-mail— the pandemic? yes, absolutely. this is an e-mail to _ the pandemic? yes, absolutely. this is an e-mail to mark _ the pandemic? yes, absolutely. this is an e-mail to mark sweeney, - the pandemic? yes, absolutely. this is an e-mail to mark sweeney, who l is an e—mail to mark sweeney, who was running — is an e—mail to mark sweeney, who was running the economic and domestic— was running the economic and domestic secretariat. if he and his team _ domestic secretariat. if he and his team had — domestic secretariat. if he and his team had been able to spend a bit more _ team had been able to spend a bit more time, — team had been able to spend a bit more time, they would have been able and confident to have bottomed out all of the _ and confident to have bottomed out all of the other questions we ought to be _ all of the other questions we ought to be considering. this is not a perfect — to be considering. this is not a perfect list _ to be considering. this is not a perfect list and again, i am looking at conversational pieces of work rather— at conversational pieces of work rather than something very profound and thoughtful. but i definitely thought that from very early on, we were looking at the wrong

indicators. or rather, that there were _ indicators. or rather, that there were many, _ indicators. or rather, that there were many, many more signs of both what was _ were many, many more signs of both what was happening and what the government was doing that we ought to be bearing in mind when we were making— to be bearing in mind when we were making decisions. and it sort of gave _ making decisions. and it sort of gave false — making decisions. and it sort of gave false comfort to keep on getting — gave false comfort to keep on getting ever more precise data about a particular— getting ever more precise data about a particular set of things. that is not to— a particular set of things. that is not to say— a particular set of things. that is not to say that i don't think both there _ not to say that i don't think both there was— not to say that i don't think both there was inadequate data, that was definitely— there was inadequate data, that was definitely true and that data matters. it definitely was —— it definitely— matters. it definitely was —— it definitely does. it was more i thought— definitely does. it was more i thought we were perhaps focusing on countable _ thought we were perhaps focusing on countable things and also possibly counting _ countable things and also possibly counting the wrong things. just one more area in _ counting the wrong things. just one more area in this _ counting the wrong things. just one more area in this narrow— more area in this narrow perspective. that is the question of pp for women. another issue that you tried to drive forward. if we could look at page 53 of your statement, paragraph 104.

towards the bottom of that paragraph, you say that you raised issues about the inadequacies of ppe for women and tried to make sure this was taken into account in any new supply. and you record that the prime minister, i don't know whether this was at your suggestion or not, raised this issue with simon stevens, it was the chief executive of the nhs. 0n stevens, it was the chief executive of the nhs. on april the 30th. and simon stevens reassured the prime minister that the issues with ppe fitting women'sbodies had been misreported and there was not a problem. were you there at that meeting or told about it and was it because of your suggestion that this was raised? i because of your suggestion that this was raised? ., �* ., ., . ., was raised? i wouldn't want to claim sinale

was raised? i wouldn't want to claim single credit — was raised? i wouldn't want to claim single credit at _ was raised? i wouldn't want to claim single credit at all. _ was raised? i wouldn't want to claim single credit at all. so _ was raised? i wouldn't want to claim single credit at all. so i _ was raised? i wouldn't want to claim single credit at all. so i had - single credit at all. so i had definitely raised this issue a number— definitely raised this issue a number of times and it was i presume the covid _ number of times and it was i presume the covid team who are working on covid _ the covid team who are working on covid before they were the task force _ covid before they were the task force who — covid before they were the task force who had asked the prime minister— force who had asked the prime minister to raise that. i wouldn't have _ minister to raise that. i wouldn't have been— minister to raise that. i wouldn't have been involved in writing the briefing — have been involved in writing the briefing. but i do remember feeling that once _ briefing. but i do remember feeling that once we got to that point, there _ that once we got to that point, there wasn't much more i could do to keep on— there wasn't much more i could do to keep on pressing this point. because he thought— keep on pressing this point. because he thought it was fine, it was sort of the _ he thought it was fine, it was sort of the end — he thought it was fine, it was sort of the end of the road, really. just noticin: of the end of the road, really. just noticing and _ of the end of the road, really. itst noticing and remembering the data from the 30th of april has been the date on which this meeting you understood took place. let's look at one of the document, please. it is tab 21 in the bundle. —— one of the document. 28659. we need to go to at least the second page to see the start of the e—mail chain. it starts

with an e—mailfrom start of the e—mail chain. it starts with an e—mail from you, another e—mail you sent during april, another pursuing of a separate issue. you are e—mailing simon ridley and maryjones. it seems you at least thought you had sent a number of annoying e—mails to colleagues during that period. yes. but ou colleagues during that period. yes. but you raise _ colleagues during that period. yes. but you raise with _ colleagues during that period. yes. but you raise with then the question of whether this issue of ppe not been designed for female bodies of whether this issue of ppe not been designed forfemale bodies had as it were being considered by those who were sourcing ppe in those early days of the pandemic. yes. and we see both response is that we get back. first of all for maryjones. hi, helen, i haven't heard it discussed at the top level meetings. same and it will be much better informed than me. and then if we go back to the first page. —— simon

will be. the response from simon ridley, who is simon ridley? the contribution _ ridley, who is simon ridley? the contribution simon ridley made during _ contribution simon ridley made during this period is genuinely extraordinary, i think. during this period is genuinely extraordinary, ithink. and during this period is genuinely extraordinary, i think. and simon had been — extraordinary, i think. and simon had been a — extraordinary, i think. and simon had been a director—general in the department for exiting the european union _ department for exiting the european union he _ department for exiting the european union. he is one of the people he went— union. he is one of the people he went straight from that into being involved _ went straight from that into being involved in this nascent cabinet office _ involved in this nascent cabinet office team. i think at this point, simon _ office team. i think at this point, simon was — office team. i think at this point, simon was maybe running the nhs... i think he _ simon was maybe running the nhs... i think he was— simon was maybe running the nhs... i think he was running one of the cabinet — think he was running one of the cabinet committee groups at that point _ cabinet committee groups at that point he — cabinet committee groups at that point. he would have been involved because _ point. he would have been involved because he — point. he would have been involved because he was involved i think in the procurement of new ppe as well. later— the procurement of new ppe as well. later in _ the procurement of new ppe as well. later in the _ the procurement of new ppe as well. later in the year, he became the head of the covid task force. i think much later. yes, he was the director—general, then he worked for simon _

director—general, then he worked for simon a _ director—general, then he worked for simon a case — director—general, then he worked for simon a case and then he worked for james _ simon a case and then he worked for james boli~ _ simon a case and then he worked for james boli. and i think afterjames bowler— james boli. and i think afterjames bowler was the permanent secretary and left, _ bowler was the permanent secretary and left, simon became the permanent secretary— and left, simon became the permanent secretary -- _ and left, simon became the permanent secretary —— james bowler. in and left, simon became the permanent secretary -- james bowler.— secretary -- james bowler. in any event, hit — secretary -- james bowler. in any event. hit his— secretary -- james bowler. in any event, hit his response _ secretary -- james bowler. in any event, hit his response enable - secretary -- james bowler. in any event, hit his response enable tol event, hit his response enable to your e—mail about ppe for women. thanks for raising this, i will be honest, it is not something that has beenin honest, it is not something that has been in conversations i have had so far. that is not to say it is not in the thinking, but i will assume not really and take it up. and he emphasises that diversity is important. and if we look at the top of the page, we can see it is two weeks later on the 30th of april, the day we saw of the meeting with simon stevens that cleo watson who i think was another of the officials in downing street? she think was another of the officials in downing street?— in downing street? she was the deu in downing street? she was the deputy chief — in downing street? she was the deputy chief of _ in downing street? she was the deputy chief of staff, _ in downing street? she was the deputy chief of staff, yes. - in downing street? she was the deputy chief of staff, yes. shel deputy chief of staff, yes. she sa s, deputy chief of staff, yes. she says, astonishing, _ deputy chief of staff, yes. s"i9: says, astonishing, two deputy chief of staff, yes. s"i9 says, astonishing, two weeks later and finally raised in one of these meetings. what do you think she

means by astonishing? astonishing at how long it had taken? she means by astonishing? astonishing at how long it had taken?— how long it had taken? she and i had been talking — how long it had taken? she and i had been talking about _ how long it had taken? she and i had been talking about this _ how long it had taken? she and i had been talking about this all— how long it had taken? she and i had been talking about this all the - how long it had taken? she and i had been talking about this all the way i been talking about this all the way throughout as well. and it would be unfair— throughout as well. and it would be unfair to— throughout as well. and it would be unfair to create the impression that what she's— unfair to create the impression that what she's doing here is criticising simon _ what she's doing here is criticising simon and — what she's doing here is criticising simon and mary, both of whom i had worked _ simon and mary, both of whom i had worked with— simon and mary, both of whom i had worked with extensively and have every _ worked with extensively and have every confidence that what they were doin- every confidence that what they were doing was— every confidence that what they were doing was trying to get the thing addressed. i think the reason, doing was trying to get the thing addressed. ithink the reason, but doing was trying to get the thing addressed. i think the reason, but i am speculating rather than knowing and the _ am speculating rather than knowing and the documents would tell you, is that the _ and the documents would tell you, is that the reason why eventually it had to _ that the reason why eventually it had to go — that the reason why eventually it had to go to the prime minister to ask the _ had to go to the prime minister to ask the question is because they had tried any— ask the question is because they had tried any of— ask the question is because they had tried any of the route to get the answer— tried any of the route to get the answer and tried any of the route to get the answerand then tried any of the route to get the answer and then using the prime minister— answer and then using the prime minister in — answer and then using the prime minister in a meeting to ask a question— minister in a meeting to ask a question should not be your first response — question should not be your first response if you want to know the answer. — response if you want to know the answer. it — response if you want to know the answer. it is— response if you want to know the answer, it is the point you get to if you _ answer, it is the point you get to if you cannot find any other way of getting _ if you cannot find any other way of getting through the system. and i suspect— getting through the system. and i suspect that is what cleo means here~ _ suspect that is what cleo means here she — suspect that is what cleo means here. she and i had lots of conversations about this and in fact, _ conversations about this and in fact, everyone on this e—mail chain are people — fact, everyone on this e—mail chain are people who were concerned about

the differential impacts on women and were — the differential impacts on women and were trying to do something about— and were trying to do something about it — and were trying to do something about it in — and were trying to do something about it in my view. 30 and were trying to do something about it in my view.— and were trying to do something about it in my view. so here are a whole series _ about it in my view. so here are a whole series of— about it in my view. so here are a whole series of issues, _ about it in my view. so here are a whole series of issues, all- about it in my view. so here are a whole series of issues, all of- about it in my view. so here are a | whole series of issues, all of them linked to this question of narrow perspectives which you were raising in april, miss macnamara. we have been through them to a varying degree and you are able to get others to take them on. looking forward, perhaps to the next pandemic column —— pandemic, it is obvious from what you have said that you would hope the cabinet office would have more time to think these things through. but beyond that, how should the government do you think ensure that the interests of ethnic minority people, disabled people, women are more properly taken into account in this sort of situation? so i think i would say two things.

firstly, _ so i think i would say two things. firstly, i— so i think i would say two things. firstly, i think you have heard some great _ firstly, i think you have heard some great and _ firstly, i think you have heard some great and interesting things in your first module about how government should _ first module about how government should be _ first module about how government should be ready for crisis response and i_ should be ready for crisis response and i would — should be ready for crisis response and i would hope that the suggestion that i and i would hope that the suggestion that i think— and i would hope that the suggestion that i think mr lech when made about creating _ that i think mr lech when made about creating a _ that i think mr lech when made about creating a bit of machinery that had that responsibility of auditing and managing plans and risk, that you would _ managing plans and risk, that you would want that unit to have that question— would want that unit to have that question and notjust, are we ready and do _ question and notjust, are we ready and do we — question and notjust, are we ready and do we not have enough in the warehouse. — and do we not have enough in the warehouse, but have we got sufficiently about the impact? —— mr letwin~ _ sufficiently about the impact? —— mr letwin~ i_ sufficiently about the impact? —— mr letwin. i think there are legal frameworks that could be in place that i_ frameworks that could be in place that i think would eclipse for better— that i think would eclipse for better decision—making in terms of the sort _ better decision—making in terms of the sort of— better decision—making in terms of the sort of emergency again. and i also think— the sort of emergency again. and i also think this is really about normal— also think this is really about normal civil service work. so in my experience — normal civil service work. so in my experience as a civil servant, it is 'ust experience as a civil servant, it is just normal— experience as a civil servant, it is just normal and actually, it is legally— just normal and actually, it is legally required of you in terms of

an impact— legally required of you in terms of an impact quality assessment to make sure that _ an impact quality assessment to make sure that the work you're doing, you understand — sure that the work you're doing, you understand the impact it is going to have _ understand the impact it is going to have. those things can be laborious and the _ have. those things can be laborious and the answer to everything is not, let's have _ and the answer to everything is not, let's have another piece of law about— let's have another piece of law about it — let's have another piece of law about it. but i do feel you have to structural— about it. but i do feel you have to structural mechanisms that don't let you not— structural mechanisms that don't let you not notice the impact of the decisions — you not notice the impact of the decisions you are making and that matters _ decisions you are making and that matters even in a crisis. and i also think— matters even in a crisis. and i also think there — matters even in a crisis. and i also think there is — matters even in a crisis. and i also think there is a whole host of other things— think there is a whole host of other things about culture and behaviours and the _ things about culture and behaviours and the structures and the people and the structures and the people and the _ and the structures and the people and the skills and experience that are around — and the skills and experience that are around a prime minister that i hope _ are around a prime minister that i hope will— are around a prime minister that i hope will be better. because that is what we _ hope will be better. because that is what we collectively or need to do, 'ust what we collectively or need to do, just make — what we collectively or need to do, just make sure it is better next time _ just make sure it is better next time. :. .. just make sure it is better next time. :, ~' ,, just make sure it is better next time. :, «e i. ., , ., time. thank you. finally, i have three further— time. thank you. finally, i have three further short _ time. thank you. finally, i have three further short points - time. thank you. finally, i have three further short points i - time. thank you. finally, i have| three further short points i want time. thank you. finally, i have i three further short points i want to ask you about. which don't have much of a common theme, really. the first is about overwhelming the nhs. it has been a recurring theme and as i have said, the risk that the

apprehension of overwhelming the nhs was one of the reasons that the lockdown decision was taken. of course, if one is facing a population level pandemic and one is talking about hundreds, even half a million, three quarters of a million deaths, it's easy to say in that situation that the nhs will be overwhelmed. what is harder to do is to calibrate where below that, the nhs overwhelmed point is, if i can put it that way. and this is something you address on your statement at page 89, paragraph 181. this i think we might need to go back to the page before just the

start of that paragraph.