discussed approach that we have discussed already that i was early on keen to explore, that might have been 0k. explore, that might have been ok. but by that stage, given how widespread the disease had become, it was clear that that essentially voluntary approach where people made their own judgment wasn't adequate and the lockdown had to be imposed. the only difference between a voluntary restriction and the mandatory one is the force of law implied to the latter. if the population was changing its behaviour, then those social restrictions would be taking effect and would be applicable by virtue of that behavioural change. why did no one say, or perhaps they did, let's wait three orfour one say, or perhaps they did, let's wait three or four more days, perhaps get closer to the 21 day expiry period from the 16th of march and see whether or not those behavioural changes will gather pace

and develop and therefore avoid the need for a mandatory lockdown? its almost a mirror image of the conversation we were having earlier, coming into the weekend of the 13th of march, the government had not reacted quickly enough because the disease was further advanced than the government believed and we believe. there was no appetite to take it any further. of course, in theory it would have been possible to deliver the stay at home message is an advisory rather than mandatory message but there was some evidence emerging, again some other anecdotal, that having advised people to stay away from crowded indoor spaces like pubs and so on that they wouldn't. i don't know whether it was a focus group, i seem to remember one of the number ten

team saying is what we're hearing that if you meant us to stay away from the pubs you would close the pubs. so it seemed necessary to impose mandatory lockdown given how quickly the disease was moving in order to minimise that risk. lard order to minimise that risk. lord sedwill to use _ order to minimise that risk. lord sedwill to use your _ order to minimise that risk. lord sedwill to use your words, was it not a mirror image of what had taken place before? the government having under reacted in early march by failing to implement measures shorter than lockdown when the incidences was lower and it would have had more effect, overreacted on the 23rd and went the whole way as opposed to allowing the data and the information about behavioural changes from the 16th of march meso is to develop? changes from the 16th of march meso is to melon)?— is to develop? governments were makin: a

is to develop? governments were making a risk _ is to develop? governments were making a riskjudgment _ is to develop? governments were l making a riskjudgment throughout the more series of riskjudgment throughout that period. and were following scientific advice. the advice going into the 23rd of march decision was clear that the disease was still exponential, dr rate still above one. so it's difficult to see how the government should have done anything else and take measures by the experts, stay at home etc, necessary to bring the r below one. and i think you will be aware that, i can't recall whether it was the cabinet, it might�*ve been in the cabinet, it might�*ve been in the cabinet the day after that. when the chief medical officer says that he doesn't know even those measures will be sufficient and caution against releasing them so quickly. even the most extreme measurements, government couldn't be confident that there would be enough. you have

identified the — that there would be enough. you have identified the floors, _ that there would be enough. you have identified the floors, if— that there would be enough. you have identified the floors, if laws _ that there would be enough. you have identified the floors, if laws they - identified the floors, if laws they were in the decision—making process in early march. you identify in your statement an additional issue which is that the dhs c was neither structured nor resourced for a public health crisis of this magnitude. and you also refer, of course, to the arguably inadequate critical care capacity for public health in this country. would you accept the proposition that had the dhs c being better structured and resourced for a public health crisis and had the united kingdom's critical care capacity been better the government would have had more options open to it or at least one alternative option to a lockdown open to in early march. yes and i

would add the point that we were discussing earlier about contact tracing etc. discussing earlier about contact tracing ete— discussing earlier about contact tracing etc-— discussing earlier about contact tracin: etc. ., ., ., tracing etc. there was a range of capabilities _ tracing etc. there was a range of capabilities and _ tracing etc. there was a range of capabilities and capacity - tracing etc. there was a range of capabilities and capacity that - tracing etc. there was a range of. capabilities and capacity that would provided more options at the earliest age of the pandemic, agreed. earliest age of the pandemic, aareed. ., ., ., ., agreed. now, following the lockdown decision that — agreed. now, following the lockdown decision that the _ agreed. now, following the lockdown decision that the prime _ agreed. now, following the lockdown decision that the prime minister - agreed. now, following the lockdown decision that the prime minister as i decision that the prime minister as it is very well known fell gravely ill and dominic rob the first secretary deputised for the prime minister. the evidence from his statement and he will be giving evidence in due course in the inquiry and also from helen mcnamara's statement was that the arrangements third dominic rob to deputise were an oral agreement reached between him and boris johnson. i reached between him and boris johnson. ~ , ., reached between him and boris johnson. ~' , ., ., , johnson. i think the hymn that was the case, johnson. i think the hymn that was the case. he _ johnson. i think the hymn that was the case, he understood _ johnson. i think the hymn that was the case, he understood that - johnson. i think the hymn that was

the case, he understood that he i johnson. i think the hymn that was i the case, he understood that he was the case, he understood that he was the stand—in but actually there was more to it than that at least my in my own understanding of this. find my own understanding of this. and what was that? we _ my own understanding of this. and what was that? we have _ my own understanding of this. and what was that? we have a - my own understanding of this. and what was that? we have a more i my own understanding of this. and - what was that? we have a more formal s stem of what was that? we have a more formal system of deputies _ what was that? we have a more formal system of deputies for _ what was that? we have a more formal system of deputies for the _ what was that? we have a more formal system of deputies for the prime - system of deputies for the prime minister in a national security crisis so it's possible to maintain what we call possible to be a positive political control for decisions about insidious terrorist threats, etc. it is one of the first conversations and when these jobs are separate this happens for an incoming prime minister. they need to have decided who these people will be. as first secretary, dominic raab was the primary deputy for the prime minister in cases of that kind. �* prime minister in cases of that

kind. ~ , ., prime minister in cases of that kind. �* ,, prime minister in cases of that kind. ~ , prime minister in cases of that kind. , ., kind. are you saying, sorry to interrunt _ kind. are you saying, sorry to interrupt that _ kind. are you saying, sorry to interrupt that it _ kind. are you saying, sorry to interrupt that it specifically i interrupt that it specifically provides that the first secretary will deputise or may deputise or simply a guidance that deals with the functions of whoever it is does deputise. the functions of whoever it is does de - utise. ., . the functions of whoever it is does de - utise. . . ., , the functions of whoever it is does deutise. . . ., , ., deputise. the guidance was not contained within _ deputise. the guidance was not contained within the _ deputise. the guidance was not contained within the cabinet - deputise. the guidance was not - contained within the cabinet manual at that stage, the one that had been drafted about a decade earlier. i recall helen mcnamara and i having a discussion saying we must... the decision doesn't go with the office of first secretary, there hasn't always been a first secretary, sometimes as a deputy prime minister, sometimes the chancellor of... and a national security, it isn'tjust of... and a national security, it isn't just one of... and a national security, it isn'tjust one person, it is usually three or four. isn'tjust one person, it is usually three orfour. in isn'tjust one person, it is usually three or four. in this case it was clear that dominic raab was the alternate if the prime minister was incommunicado or incapacitated. in

april 2020, incommunicado or incapacitated. in april2020, did incommunicado or incapacitated. in april 2020, did that guidance provided in the event of an illness of the prime minister that it was the first minister who were deputise. —— first secretary who were deputise. when the prime minister returned, to what extent do you assess that he was affected by his illness? in the course of a lengthy whatsapp debate about his propensity to change his mind and veer when making decisions, quite charitably asked whether or not he might have been affected by his illness when making government decisions in may orjune? yes. illness when making government decisions in may orjune? yes, there are two points- _ decisions in may orjune? yes, there are two points- i _ decisions in may orjune? yes, there are two points. i think _ decisions in may orjune? yes, there are two points. i think there - decisions in may orjune? yes, there are two points. i think there is - decisions in may orjune? yes, there are two points. i think there is the i are two points. i think there is the broader question, i don't know whether you want to come back to it but we touched on it with others about his decision—making style. i will come back to that. about his decision-making style. i will come back to that. 0k, - about his decision-making style. i will come back to that. ok, i- about his decision-making style. i will come back to that. ok, i will. will come back to that. ok, i will ut that will come back to that. ok, i will

put that aside. _ will come back to that. ok, i will put that aside. i _ will come back to that. ok, i will put that aside. i was _ will come back to that. ok, i will put that aside. i was concerned. | will come back to that. ok, i will. put that aside. i was concerned. he took a long time to recover, he had a serious bout of this. i was lucky. i had long covid symptoms later. we weren't concerned so much about his decision—making style it was about stamina. br; decision-making style it was about stamina. �* , ., decision-making style it was about stamina. j . p decision-making style it was about stamina. j . a ., , stamina. by late april it had become clear that the _ stamina. by late april it had become clear that the lockdown _ stamina. by late april it had become clear that the lockdown was - stamina. by late april it had become| clear that the lockdown was working, it was effective in reducing the spread of the virus and the r basic number was a long way below one. you wrote a letter to the prime minister. we can see that it comes from you addressed to the prime minister, covid—19 next steps. you set out a summary of papers which have been produced for the prime

minister by the cabinet office, covid—19 strategy unit. if we go to paragraph five on page two. we can see that you say so far we have cemented the population to the shielded one and a half million and everyone else and in prompt us, since everyone has locked down the distinction it's been more about support than behaviour. two points, firstly, the reference to the distinction being more about support the behaviour, is that a reflection of the fact that because the whole population was under lockdown, there was less of a need to shield those who have been shielded because they were being necessarily shielded by virtue of reduction in the overall incidence rate of the virus? hat incidence rate of the virus? not auite, if incidence rate of the virus? not quite. if i _ incidence rate of the virus? not quite. ifl may. _ incidence rate of the virus? not quite, ifi may, it— incidence rate of the virus? lint quite, if i may, it was more about the support, food parcels, etc, for those who are most vulnerable to the disease who really needed, as well

as the stay—at—home, only go out for provisionals once a week, one hour exercise, etc, actually were in a more stringent version of that. so we were talking about and sent to the fact that we had quarantine the entire country. 50 the fact that we had quarantine the entire country-— entire country. so behaviourally there is a distinction. _ entire country. so behaviourally there is a distinction. exactly. l entire country. so behaviourally i there is a distinction. exactly. the shielded who we might of quarantine and shielded were getting the support of necessities etc. that was the oint i support of necessities etc. that was the point i was _ support of necessities etc. that was the point i was trying _ support of necessities etc. that was the point i was trying to _ support of necessities etc. that was the point i was trying to make. - the point i was trying to make. secondly, you use the words segmented and shielded, is there a difference? is shielding perhaps, i don't know, the word that better reflects the practicalities of a segmentation process, physically shielding people. it’s segmentation process, physically shielding people.— segmentation process, physically shielding people. it's almost verbal

ad'ective, shielding people. it's almost verbal adjective. that _ shielding people. it's almost verbal adjective, that a _ shielding people. it's almost verbal adjective, that a complete - shielding people. it's almost verbal| adjective, that a complete sentence said, we have segmented the population into the shielded one and a half million and the unshielded rest. shielding was about the programmes that we were providing to take care of the vulnerable. and segmentation was just a description of the distinction, i guess, between the two. ., ~._ the two. right. on the 7th of may, cabinet endorsed _ the two. right. on the 7th of may, cabinet endorsed the _ the two. right. on the 7th of may, cabinet endorsed the phased - the two. right. on the 7th of may, | cabinet endorsed the phased release aspect of the lockdown. that had obviously been published a road map and there was a course which the government was resolved to take in terms of sequentially and gradually releasing the constraints of the lockdown. in a statement, helen mcnamara suggested that road map was published without any cabinet collective process. in your own statement, you say that ministers endorsed the phased release of the lockdown. to what extent was that

road map and release actually debated and decided by cabinet? it had been developed through the course of april, when the prime minister was away, under the leadership of the first secretary in a series of ministerial meetings known as the chairs of the mix with some input from other ministers. my recollection is that it was discussed in the cabinet meetings that he shared at the same time but i don't have that evidence to hand. and the, again, to the best of my recollection essentially there was an agreement in principle that that road map, among that group of ministers that that road map would proceed subject to endorsement by the prime minister and cabinet when he returned. there was a sense at which it was conditional but the road map has essentially been worked through by the first secretary and

that group of ministers. you would sa the that group of ministers. you would say the degree _ that group of ministers. you would say the degree of _ that group of ministers. you would say the degree of debate _ that group of ministers. you would say the degree of debate was - say the degree of debate was appropriate? it say the degree of debate was appropriate?— say the degree of debate was appropriate? there appropriate? it was intensive. there is a further — appropriate? it was intensive. there is a further note _ appropriate? it was intensive. there is a further note for— appropriate? it was intensive. there is a further note for the _ appropriate? it was intensive. there is a further note for the prime - is a further note for the prime minister dated the 10th of may. covid—19 pay next phase. —— covid—19 campaign next phase. for a while, we thought the united kingdom is doing better than other countries now we are doing worse. there will likely have been significant demographic and cultural reasons for the differential impact. briefly, what was it in your opinion that we had done worse? it was it in your opinion that we had done worse?— done worse? it was really a reflection — done worse? it was really a reflection of _ done worse? it was really a reflection of the _ done worse? it was really a reflection of the emerging l done worse? it was really a - reflection of the emerging data about excess deaths. we of course were warned by the chief medical officer and others that we wouldn't know until later, given the differential counting methods, etc. there had been a sense then you have heard this and other evidence, in the early spring that the uk was in

better shape, we have been told our pandemic plans were excellent, etc. the emerging data suggest the excess deaths in the uk were higher than broadly comparable countries. i think it was probably a reflection of that and i think there was a lot of that and i think there was a lot of media coverage of that at that time. ., of media coverage of that at that time. . ., ., ., ., , time. page two at paragraph three six, ou time. page two at paragraph three six, you outline _ time. page two at paragraph three six, you outline some _ time. page two at paragraph three six, you outline some of— time. page two at paragraph three six, you outline some of the - time. page two at paragraph three six, you outline some of the areas| six, you outline some of the areas in which, in your assessment the system of government, particularly with reference to the dhs —— dhsc and public health england had failed the country is this section reflective of what you have subsequently described as the way in which the dhsc was under resourced,

under structured and incapable of dealing with the fragmented nature of the provision of health care and social care in this country? yes. of the provision of health care and social care in this country? yes, in a effect that _ social care in this country? yes, in a effect that sentence _ social care in this country? yes, in a effect that sentence was - social care in this country? yes, in a effect that sentence was a - social care in this country? yes, in - a effect that sentence was a summary of this thinking and the point i'm making, ithink of this thinking and the point i'm making, i think it is important to make this, i know it is more a module one point that this was the result of decisions taken by several governments over several years. i think the house of lords report refers to a real terms cut over about the previous five years in public health budgets across england of about 10%, for example. that was just a single example of a broader... the outcome of a series of decisions, all essentially sensible in their own terms but that had resulted in this position going into the pandemic. mi had resulted in this position going

into the pandemic.— into the pandemic. all right. in late may. _ into the pandemic. all right. in late may. the _ into the pandemic. all right. in late may, the government - into the pandemic. all right. in late may, the government wasj into the pandemic. all right. in - late may, the government was obliged to make decisions about the degree to make decisions about the degree to which the lockdown would be released and how fast it would go through the successive phases. on the 22nd of may, you communicated with simon, then the permanent secretary at number ten, page two,. you respond to a whatsapp from simon case, he says, away from drama, we had a good meeting earlier with the prime minister. he and rishi sunak readily agreed a package quite quickly. your call about not including patrick and chris was genius, it removes that dynamic. lord sedwill, is that reference to

the plan suggested, apparently by you to simon that sir patrick vallance and chris whitty should not be present at a meeting at which the package the lockdown release would be debated because you and simon case didn't on the prime minister to feel the full force of scientific advice which was very well known in the case of sir patrick and sir chris to lean towards applying the maximum degree of care and caution when releasing the country from the lockdown measures. trio. when releasing the country from the lockdown measures.— when releasing the country from the lockdown measures. no. it wasn't. if ou look lockdown measures. no. it wasn't. if you look at— lockdown measures. no. it wasn't. if you look at the _ lockdown measures. no. it wasn't. if you look at the last _ lockdown measures. no. it wasn't. if you look at the last sentence - lockdown measures. no. it wasn't. if you look at the last sentence of - you look at the last sentence of simon's whatsapp to me he says patrick is happy with it. so i can't recall the exact sequence but my

presumption is that we would have done a lot of, probably, simon would have done a lot of work in advance of the meeting between the prime minister and chancellor to make sure that whatever was on the table was acceptable to the experts and this was just a question of managing a meeting of that kind with the prime minister and chancellor had come to it in different positions. it was just about managing the dynamics of an informal meeting but if you look at the actual substance of it, the substance was something that the scientists supported.— scientists supported. patrick vallance was _ scientists supported. patrick vallance was happy - scientists supported. patrick vallance was happy with - scientists supported. patrick vallance was happy with the | scientists supported. patrick - vallance was happy with the outcome with whatever was agreed. the reference to dynamic and simon case's praise for your suggestion that the meeting not include patrick and chris. he described it as being genius. again, was that because you simply didn't wish patrick vallance and chris whitty to directly engage

with the prime minister, to speak to him directly lest their approach to the precaution might prevail and win the precaution might prevail and win the day? i’m the precaution might prevail and win the da ? �* , , ., the precaution might prevail and win theda? , ., the day? i'm sure there is a fair question- _ the day? i'm sure there is a fair question. you _ the day? i'm sure there is a fair question. you tell— the day? i'm sure there is a fair question. you tell me, - the day? i'm sure there is a fair question. you tell me, lord - the day? i'm sure there is a fair- question. you tell me, lord sidwell is at a _ question. you tell me, lord sidwell is at a fair— question. you tell me, lord sidwell is at a fair question? let question. you tell me, lord sidwell is at a fair question?— is at a fair question? let me have a to is at a fair question? let me have a no at is at a fair question? let me have a go at answering _ is at a fair question? let me have a go at answering it _ is at a fair question? let me have a go at answering it within _ is at a fair question? let me have a go at answering it within that - go at answering it within that boundary that you have implied. i suspect... i don't recall exactly, this was clearly a conversation that i had with him earlier. you have heard from others that the prime minister was often at his best in small meetings. there would have been a difference of view between him and the chancellor at this point, i think the prime minister had already been briefed extensively by patrick vallance and chris

whitty, it wasn't that they didn't have access to the prime minister, they had plenty of access to him. this would have simply been about handling the meeting and presumably trying to ensure that the dynamics of that meeting were more productive that the chancellor wasn't coming to a meeting feeling that his perspective was going to be overwhelmed by essentially a cohort of people sitting on the other side of people sitting on the other side of the table and that they could have a genuine one—to—one discussion and i am comforted as i have said that patrick vallance's being content with what they agreed, it must have been the case therefore given that the chancellor would have been presumably been pushing for something to go further and faster that the prime minister had whatever have had he needed from —— whatever advice he needed from patrick vallance. i think that is as far as i'm prepared to go. are you moving to a different matter all the same?

a different document. i to a different matter all the same? a different document.— to a different matter all the same? a different document. i hope you're ha - to a different document. i hope you're happy to come _ a different document. i hope you're happy to come out _ a different document. i hope you're happy to come out this _ a different document. i hope you're happy to come out this afternoon. | happy to come out this afternoon. because _ happy to come out this afternoon. because there are also some questions from the court participants.— questions from the court --articiants. ., . ., . �* ~ participants. you are watching bbc news and live _ participants. you are watching bbc news and live coverage _ participants. you are watching bbc news and live coverage there - participants. you are watching bbc news and live coverage there from the covid inquiry. the covid inquiry has just taken a breakfor lunch. break for lunch. i assume. this breakfor lunch. i assume. this morning we have been watching testimony by lord mark sedwill who is the former head of the civil service under theresa may and borisjohnson. his testimony is crucial because he was the head of the civil service in those first few months of the covid pandemic. now, the key focus of the questioning to lord sidwell from the inquiry�*s lawyer was on the decision—making within government during the pandemic. but there was a personal

question for lord sidwell as well. he is quoted as telling colleagues in government that they should encourage people in those first few months of the pandemic to stage chickenpox style parties. this was in the aim of trying to encourage herd immunity amongst people. well, today, lord sidwell apologised for those comments and he says he realises how offensive they might have been two victims of the pandemic. just a point due to the bbc website to a live page that we have a report of analysis from today's covid inquiry and hearing and further comments on what lord sedwill had to say, his doubts about the government's approach to the

pandemic, questions about decision—making within the government. he accused the former prime minister borisjohnson of making a lot of decisions within number ten, within his own team and not consulting the cabinet itself. now, i want to bring you... plans to hold a pro—palestinian march on saturday which is our day. —— armistice day. other similar demonstrations have already taken place — and the metropolitan police has said it does not have legal grounds for cancelling the event. but the uk's prime minister rishi sunak has described the timing of this weekend's march as �*disrespectful�* — and says he will meet the commissioner of the metropolitan police to discuss the issue later on wednesday. israel suffered an absolutely shocking terrorist attack at the hands of hamas, they have every right indeed a duty to protect

their country and their citizens. as i have repeatedly stressed the israeli prime minister, they should do that in accordance with international law stop we are doing everything we can to get more aid, humanitarian aid into gaza to help people and we have consistently said that we should have humanitarian pauses as soon as possible to allow more aid to flow in as well as hostages and british nationals to come out. and we will have more on that and developing story as well as analysis from the covid inquiry here on bbc news as well as the one o'clock news coming up shortly. first, it's time for a look at the weather. it's clearing to brighter skies but also with some hefty showers. you can see our frontal system continue its journey eastwards, low pressure still in charge sending lots of showers and from the atlantic. it has been really windy too in the north—west

of scotland. those went only slowly easing through the west of the day. heavy rain lingering towards the south—east of england. elsewhere, as we head into the first part of the evening, it is that mix of clear spells and some pretty hefty showers, though showers actually continuing overnight, a band of showers moving eastwards across england and wales, further showers into western scotland, northern ireland and wales, some of those heavy and thundery. turn increasingly windy across southern and western parts. temperatures close to freezing across parts of scotland, most of us will avoid a frost because of the strength of the breeze. into tomorrow, sunshine and showers, most of that showers where you're exposed to a brisk breeze, north—west england and the isle of man, into northern ireland, not as many showers further east or north, those winds gusting to a0 or 50 mph around in summerthan those winds gusting to a0 or 50 mph around in summer than net southern and western coasts. a chillier breeze than we're used to. low

pressure still very much with us, from thursday into friday. noticing the isobars just squeezing together across the south—west corner as a small weather feature moves its way in. that would bring some outbreaks of rain and some strong strong winds again. with a change of the wind direction, that means more showers across northern and eastern parts, not as many showers across western parts by the end of the day. still a slightly chilly feel, seven to 12 celsius. this slows things away eastwards for the start of the weekend, another one wait in the atlantic. in between, a brief gap between as weather systems. we could well see some fog saturday morning. that would tend to clear and then actually, it is a dry looking day. temperatures between seven and 12 celsius, as we head into remembrance sunday, it looks like outbreaks of rain will try to push on from the southin rain will try to push on from the south in the west. a better chance of staying dry across the north of the uk.

today at one: the united states and other leading nations call for humanitarian pauses in the fighting in gaza to allow more aid in. for now, the fighting goes on. israel says its troops are in the heart of gaza city, but the us secretary of state says israeli forces should not re—occupy gaza after the war. there may be a need for some transition period at the end of the conflict, but it is imperative that the palestinian people be central to governance in gaza.

we'll be live with our correspondents in the region. also this lunchtime: the row over a pro—palestinian demonstration scheduled for armistice day this weekend — the prime minister says he'll hold the head of the metropolitan police accountable for letting it go ahead. from today, people can be prosecuted for possessing nitrous oxide — or laughing gas — with repeat offenders jailed for up to two years. and celebrating shakespeare — it's 400 years since friends of the bard published the collection of his plays known as the first folio. and coming up on bbc news: how to sum up england's world cup — joe root is nutmegged, before stokes and woakes help them to a respectable score against the netherlands.