thank you. my third and final question, which hopes for verification on a point of fact, —— clarification, how did the impact of disparate effects on black, asian and minority ethnic communities reach senior decision—makers, if it did? reach senior decision-makers, if it did? ., �* ., ., ., did? one wouldn't have a parallel rocess did? one wouldn't have a parallel process for— did? one wouldn't have a parallel process for this. _ did? one wouldn't have a parallel process for this. of _ did? one wouldn't have a parallel process for this. of course - did? one wouldn't have a parallel process for this. of course there l process for this. of course there would _ process for this. of course there would be — process for this. of course there would be informal feedback. i mentioned in answer to a question earlier, _ mentioned in answer to a question earlier, i_ mentioned in answer to a question earlier, i think the role of cabinet ministers — earlier, i think the role of cabinet ministers as constituency mps as well as_ ministers as constituency mps as well as ministers, that's a mechanism by which they can bring that perspective. but the policy process— that perspective. but the policy process itself is designed to include _ process itself is designed to include those factors and therefore decisions _ include those factors and therefore decisions coming to cabinet or the prime _ decisions coming to cabinet or the prime minister or ministers should encompass — prime minister or ministers should encompass all of those factors. that is what _ encompass all of those factors. that

is what a _ encompass all of those factors. that is what a good policy process are designed — is what a good policy process are designed to do.— is what a good policy process are designed to do. thank you, my lady. thank you — designed to do. thank you, my lady. thank you. good _ designed to do. thank you, my lady. thank you. good afternoon. - designed to do. thank you, my lady. thank you. good afternoon. i- designed to do. thank you, my lady. thank you. good afternoon. i will. thank you. good afternoon. i will ask questions _ thank you. good afternoon. i will ask questions for _ thank you. good afternoon. i will ask questions for four _ thank you. good afternoon. i will ask questions for four national i ask questions for four national disabled — ask questions for four national disabled people's— ask questions for four national i disabled people's organisations. ask questions for four national - disabled people's organisations. in july 2020, — disabled people's organisations. in july 2020, before _ disabled people's organisations. in july 2020, before leaving - disabled people's organisations. in july 2020, before leaving post- disabled people's organisations. in. july 2020, before leaving post moyu .ave july 2020, before leaving post moyu gave a _ july 2020, before leaving post moyu gave a final — july 2020, before leaving post moyu gave a final valedictory _ july 2020, before leaving post moyu gave a final valedictory lecture - july 2020, before leaving post moyu gave a final valedictory lecture at. gave a final valedictory lecture at oxford _ gave a final valedictory lecture at oxford university _ gave a final valedictory lecture at oxford university —— _ gave a final valedictory lecture at oxford university —— you - gave a final valedictory lecture at oxford university —— you gave . gave a final valedictory lecture at oxford university —— you gave a i oxford university —— you gave a final— oxford university —— you gave a final valedictory— oxford university —— you gave a final valedictory lecture, - oxford university —— you gave a final valedictory lecture, it- oxford university —— you gave a final valedictory lecture, it is. final valedictory lecture, it is exhibited _ final valedictory lecture, it is exhibited in— final valedictory lecture, it is exhibited in your— final valedictory lecture, it is exhibited in your statement. i final valedictory lecture, it is. exhibited in your statement. in which _ exhibited in your statement. in which you — exhibited in your statement. in which you endorsed _ exhibited in your statement. in which you endorsed the - exhibited in your statement. in which you endorsed the need l exhibited in your statement. in| which you endorsed the need to exhibited in your statement. in - which you endorsed the need to build back better, — which you endorsed the need to build back better, especially _ which you endorsed the need to build back better, especially given - back better, especially given covid's — back better, especially given covid's adverse _ back better, especially given covid's adverse affect - back better, especially given covid's adverse affect on - back better, especially given. covid's adverse affect on what back better, especially given - covid's adverse affect on what you called _ covid's adverse affect on what you called the — covid's adverse affect on what you called the poorest _ covid's adverse affect on what you called the poorest and _ covid's adverse affect on what you called the poorest and most - called the poorest and most vulnerable _ called the poorest and most vulnerable in _ called the poorest and most vulnerable in society, - called the poorest and most vulnerable in society, i- called the poorest and most vulnerable in society, i canl called the poorest and most i vulnerable in society, i can see called the poorest and most - vulnerable in society, i can see you nodding. _ vulnerable in society, i can see you nodding. so— vulnerable in society, i can see you nodding. so you _ vulnerable in society, i can see you nodding, so you recall. _ vulnerable in society, i can see you nodding, so you recall. on - vulnerable in society, i can see you nodding, so you recall. on that - vulnerable in society, i can see you nodding, so you recall. on that we| nodding, so you recall. on that we want _ nodding, so you recall. on that we want to— nodding, so you recall. on that we want to ask— nodding, so you recall. on that we want to ask you _ nodding, so you recall. on that we want to ask you firstly— nodding, so you recall. on that we want to ask you firstly about - want to ask you firstly about consultation _ want to ask you firstly about consultation with _ want to ask you firstly about consultation with groups - want to ask you firstly about i consultation with groups from outside — consultation with groups from outside government, - consultation with groups from outside government, and - consultation with groups from - outside government, and secondly about— outside government, and secondly about the — outside government, and secondly about the way— outside government, and secondly about the way that _ outside government, and secondly about the way that government. outside government, and secondly about the way that government isl about the way that government is internally— about the way that government is internally organised _ about the way that government is internally organised when - about the way that government is internally organised when it - internally organised when it comes to considering _ internally organised when it comes to considering inequality. - internally organised when it comes to considering inequality. so - internally organised when it comes to considering inequality. so first l to considering inequality. so first on outside — to considering inequality. so first on outside consultation. - to considering inequality. so first on outside consultation. there i to considering inequality. so first on outside consultation. there is| to considering inequality. so first. on outside consultation. there is a report— on outside consultation. there is a report from — on outside consultation. there is a report from the _ on outside consultation. there is a report from the institute _ on outside consultation. there is a report from the institute for - report from the institute for government— report from the institute for government that _ report from the institute for government that was - report from the institute for government that was in - report from the institute for| government that was in your report from the institute for - government that was in your every diffidence — government that was in your every diffidence pack, _ government that was in your every diffidence pack, titled _ diffidence pack, titled decision—making - diffidence pack, titled decision—making in. diffidence pack, titled i decision—making in crisis diffidence pack, titled -

decision—making in crisis versus responses — decision—making in crisis versus responses to _ decision—making in crisis versus responses to the _ decision—making in crisis versus responses to the current - decision—making in crisis versus responses to the current virus l responses to the current virus pandemic _ responses to the current virus pandemic -- _ responses to the current virus pandemic -- in— responses to the current virus pandemic. —— in your- responses to the current virus| pandemic. —— in your evidence responses to the current virus - pandemic. —— in your evidence pack. can we— pandemic. —— in your evidence pack. can we go— pandemic. —— in your evidence pack. can we go to— pandemic. —— in your evidence pack. can we go to page _ pandemic. —— in your evidence pack. can we go to page 50, _ pandemic. —— in your evidence pack. can we go to page 50, please. - pandemic. —— in your evidence pack. can we go to page 50, please. i- pandemic. —— in your evidence pack. | can we go to page 50, please. i want to look— can we go to page 50, please. i want to look at— can we go to page 50, please. i want to look at the _ can we go to page 50, please. i want to look at the top — can we go to page 50, please. i want to look at the top paragraph - can we go to page 50, please. i want to look at the top paragraph first, - to look at the top paragraph first, and the _ to look at the top paragraph first, and the recommendation - to look at the top paragraph first, and the recommendation as - to look at the top paragraph first, and the recommendation as to i and the recommendation as to bringing — and the recommendation as to bringing representatives- and the recommendation as to bringing representatives of- and the recommendation as to . bringing representatives of those affected — bringing representatives of those affected by— bringing representatives of those affected by a _ bringing representatives of those affected by a decision _ bringing representatives of those affected by a decision into- bringing representatives of those affected by a decision into the i bringing representatives of those i affected by a decision into the room compensates — affected by a decision into the room compensates for— affected by a decision into the room compensates for imperfect - compensates for imperfect information. _ compensates for imperfect information. it _ compensates for imperfect information. it is _ compensates for imperfect | information. it is inevitable compensates for imperfect i information. it is inevitable in a crisis _ information. it is inevitable in a crisis that— information. it is inevitable in a crisis that decision—making i information. it is inevitable in a crisis that decision—making is l crisis that decision—making is centralised _ crisis that decision—making is centralised to— crisis that decision—making is centralised to some - crisis that decision—making is centralised to some degree, i crisis that decision—making is l centralised to some degree, as ministers — centralised to some degree, as ministers want _ centralised to some degree, as ministers want to _ centralised to some degree, as ministers want to act _ centralised to some degree, as ministers want to act quickly. centralised to some degree, as. ministers want to act quickly and take control _ ministers want to act quickly and take control. but— ministers want to act quickly and take control. but bringing - take control. but bringing non—government- take control. but bringingi non—government partners take control. but bringing - non—government partners inside take control. but bringing _ non—government partners inside the tent helps _ non—government partners inside the tent helps compensate _ non—government partners inside the tent helps compensate for _ non—government partners inside the tent helps compensate for the - tent helps compensate for the uncertainty _ tent helps compensate for the uncertainty created _ tent helps compensate for the uncertainty created by- tent helps compensate for the . uncertainty created by imperfect information _ uncertainty created by imperfect information in _ uncertainty created by imperfect information in a _ uncertainty created by imperfect information in a crisis _ uncertainty created by imperfect information in a crisis as - uncertainty created by imperfect information in a crisis as well i uncertainty created by imperfect information in a crisis as well as| information in a crisis as well as building — information in a crisis as well as building trust _ information in a crisis as well as building trust and _ information in a crisis as well as building trust and creating - information in a crisis as well as| building trust and creating allies to explain— building trust and creating allies to explain and _ building trust and creating allies to explain and defend _ building trust and creating allies to explain and defend policy. i building trust and creating alliesl to explain and defend policy. and building trust and creating allies i to explain and defend policy. and in the next _ to explain and defend policy. and in the next of— to explain and defend policy. and in the next of examples _ to explain and defend policy. and in the next of examples are _ to explain and defend policy. and in the next of examples are given i to explain and defend policy. and in the next of examples are given of l the next of examples are given of those _ the next of examples are given of those who — the next of examples are given of those who would _ the next of examples are given of those who would benefit - the next of examples are given of those who would benefit from, i the next of examples are given of those who would benefit from, in| the next of examples are given of i those who would benefit from, in its words. _ those who would benefit from, in its words. being— those who would benefit from, in its words, being brought— those who would benefit from, in its words, being brought into— those who would benefit from, in its words, being brought into the - those who would benefit from, in its words, being brought into the tent, i words, being brought into the tent, things— words, being brought into the tent, things like — words, being brought into the tent, things like business— words, being brought into the tent, things like business groups - words, being brought into the tent, things like business groups and i things like business groups and unions — things like business groups and unions with— things like business groups and unions with regard _ things like business groups and unions with regard to _ things like business groups and | unions with regard to decisions. things like business groups and i unions with regard to decisions. bat in the _ unions with regard to decisions. bat in the next — unions with regard to decisions. bat in the next. that _ unions with regard to decisions. bat in the next. that creates _ unions with regard to decisions. bat in the next. that creates a - unions with regard to decisions. bat in the next. that creates a benefit, i in the next. that creates a benefit, knowing _ in the next. that creates a benefit, knowing about _ in the next. that creates a benefit, knowing about ground _ in the next. that creates a benefit, knowing about ground intelligence | knowing about ground intelligence and goodwill — knowing about ground intelligence and goodwill and _ knowing about ground intelligence and goodwill and trust. _ knowing about ground intelligence and goodwill and trust. so- knowing about ground intelligence and goodwill and trust. so firstly, i and goodwill and trust. so firstly, do you _

and goodwill and trust. so firstly, do you agree _ and goodwill and trust. so firstly, do you agree with _ and goodwill and trust. so firstly, do you agree with that _ do you agree with that recommendation i do you agree with that recommendation and. do you agree with that. recommendation and as do you agree with that - recommendation and as you do you agree with that _ recommendation and as you setting your own _ recommendation and as you setting your own final— recommendation and as you setting your own final lecture, _ recommendation and as you setting your own final lecture, in _ your own final lecture, in particular. _ your own final lecture, in particular, that _ your own final lecture, in i particular, that governments your own final lecture, in _ particular, that governments should work much — particular, that governments should work much more _ particular, that governments should work much more to _ particular, that governments should work much more to come _ particular, that governments should work much more to come i- particular, that governments should work much more to come i will- particular, that governments should work much more to come i will use i work much more to come i will use your— work much more to come i will use your words. — work much more to come i will use yourwords, "co—designlts- work much more to come i will use your words, "co—designlts pulses. your words, "co—designlts pulses with those — your words, "co—designlts pulses with those affected _ your words, "co—designlts pulses with those affected by _ your words, "co—designlts pulses with those affected by them i your words, "co—designlts pulses. with those affected by them and"? your words, "co—designlts pulses- with those affected by them and"? —— co-design _ with those affected by them and"? —— co-design its — with those affected by them and"? —— co—design its policies. _ with those affected by them and"? —— co—design its policies. mgr— with those affected by them and"? -- co-design its policies.— co-design its policies. my first answer to _ co-design its policies. my first answer to the _ co-design its policies. my first answer to the question - co-design its policies. my first answer to the question is i co-design its policies. my first answer to the question is yes, | co-design its policies. my first | answer to the question is yes, i think the pulse report sets it out very well, we didn't touch on it in detail in my earlier evidence but as we were planning the release from the first lockdown a major part of that was engagement, sorry, i want to look around from the microphone. was engagement with businesses and other representative groups to create the safer workplaces programme, that is one of the three dozen programmes i referred to. and of course, that should, as i said earlier, to the earlier question, in any good policy process, involve engagement with other representative groups including, of course, of different and particularly in these circumstances different groups of

the most vulnerable in society. but co—design, absolutely, i believe better policy results from that. you've effectively pre—empted my second _ you've effectively pre—empted my second question _ you've effectively pre—empted my second question but _ you've effectively pre—empted my second question butjust- you've effectively pre—empted my second question but just to - you've effectively pre—empted my second question butjust to makei second question butjust to make clear— second question butjust to make clear to _ second question butjust to make clear to my— second question butjust to make clear to my lady, _ second question butjust to make clear to my lady, in— second question butjust to make clear to my lady, in a _ second question butjust to make clear to my lady, in a sense, i second question butjust to make clear to my lady, in a sense, the| clear to my lady, in a sense, the reference — clear to my lady, in a sense, the reference to _ clear to my lady, in a sense, the reference to business _ clear to my lady, in a sense, the reference to business groups i clear to my lady, in a sense, thel reference to business groups and unions _ reference to business groups and unions might— reference to business groups and unions might describe _ reference to business groups and unions might describe old—style i unions might describe old—style corporatist _ unions might describe old—style corporatist references, - unions might describe old—style corporatist references, the i unions might describe old—style. corporatist references, the policy conceivably— corporatist references, the policy conceivably speaks _ corporatist references, the policy conceivably speaks to _ corporatist references, the policy conceivably speaks to business i conceivably speaks to business groups — conceivably speaks to business groups and _ conceivably speaks to business groups and unions _ conceivably speaks to business groups and unions but - conceivably speaks to business groups and unions but i- conceivably speaks to business groups and unions but i think. conceivably speaks to business i groups and unions but i think you have _ groups and unions but i think you have made — groups and unions but i think you have made a _ groups and unions but i think you have made a face, _ groups and unions but i think you have made a face, maybe - groups and unions but i think you have made a face, maybe they. groups and unions but i think you i have made a face, maybe they don't enough. _ have made a face, maybe they don't enough. that's— have made a face, maybe they don't enough, that's another— have made a face, maybe they don't enough, that's another set - have made a face, maybe they don't enough, that's another set of- enough, that's another set of questions _ enough, that's another set of questions. but— enough, that's another set of questions. but i— enough, that's another set of questions. but i think- enough, that's another set of questions. but i think you'rel enough, that's another set of- questions. but i think you're making cleai’, _ questions. but i think you're making clear. are _ questions. but i think you're making clear. are you — questions. but i think you're making clear, are you not, _ questions. but i think you're making clear, are you not, that _ questions. but i think you're making clear, are you not, that especially. clear, are you not, that especially what _ clear, are you not, that especially what we _ clear, are you not, that especially what we are — clear, are you not, that especially what we are looking _ clear, are you not, that especially what we are looking at _ clear, are you not, that especially what we are looking at in - clear, are you not, that especially what we are looking at in this i what we are looking at in this inquiry. — what we are looking at in this inquiry. it— what we are looking at in this inquiry. it is— what we are looking at in this inquiry, it is now— what we are looking at in this inquiry, it is now high - what we are looking at in this inquiry, it is now high time i what we are looking at in thisj inquiry, it is now high time to develop — inquiry, it is now high time to develop those _ inquiry, it is now high time to develop those kind _ inquiry, it is now high time to develop those kind of- inquiry, it is now high time to. develop those kind of enhanced approaches _ develop those kind of enhanced approaches to _ develop those kind of enhanced approaches to consultation i develop those kind of enhanced approaches to consultation and | approaches to consultation and engagement— approaches to consultation and engagement with _ approaches to consultation and i engagement with representatives approaches to consultation and - engagement with representatives from civil society, _ engagement with representatives from civil society, social— engagement with representatives from civil society, social groups, _ engagement with representatives from civil society, social groups, such- civil society, social groups, such as disabled _ civil society, social groups, such as disabled people, _ civil society, social groups, such as disabled people, and - civil society, social groups, such as disabled people, and of- civil society, social groups, such. as disabled people, and of course, others _ as disabled people, and of course, others that— as disabled people, and of course, others that are _ as disabled people, and of course, others that are represented - as disabled people, and of course, others that are represented in i as disabled people, and of course, others that are represented in this| others that are represented in this inquiry _ others that are represented in this inquiry do— others that are represented in this inquiry. do you _ others that are represented in this inquiry. do you agree _ others that are represented in this inquiry. do you agree with - others that are represented in this inquiry. do you agree with that? l inquiry. do you agree with that? absolutely— inquiry. do you agree with that? absolutely and _ inquiry. do you agree with that? absolutely and i— inquiry. do you agree with that? absolutely and i would - inquiry. do you agree with that? absolutely and i would hope i inquiry. do you agree with that? i absolutely and i would hope with modern day technology it is easier perhaps to do that in a more dynamic way than perhaps would have been through traditional methods. at the fundamental point is one i agree with. ., ., .,

with. can i then turn into internal government. _ with. can i then turn into internal government, i— with. can i then turn into internal government, iwill— with. can i then turn into internal government, i will again - with. can i then turn into internal government, i will again see i government, i will again see structures, _ government, i will again see structures, back— government, i will again see structures, back to - government, i will again see structures, back to that, i government, i will again see structures, back to that, butj government, i will again see i structures, back to that, but a government, i will again see - structures, back to that, but a more particular— structures, back to that, but a more particular question. _ structures, back to that, but a more particular question. the _ structures, back to that, but a more particular question. the inquiry- structures, back to that, but a more particular question. the inquiry is. particular question. the inquiry is aware _ particular question. the inquiry is aware of— particular question. the inquiry is aware of how— particular question. the inquiry is aware of how a _ particular question. the inquiry is aware of how a missionary - particular question. the inquiry is aware of how a missionary of i aware of how a missionary of government— aware of how a missionary of government divides - aware of how a missionary of - government divides responsibilities for categories — government divides responsibilities for categories of— government divides responsibilities for categories of inequality- government divides responsibilities for categories of inequality across l for categories of inequality across a range _ for categories of inequality across a range of— for categories of inequality across a range of ministerial— for categories of inequality across a range of ministerial portfolios . a range of ministerial portfolios with no— a range of ministerial portfolios with no dedicated _ a range of ministerial portfolios with no dedicated department i with no dedicated department of state, _ with no dedicated department of state, so — with no dedicated department of state, so for _ with no dedicated department of state, so for instance, _ with no dedicated department of state, so for instance, we - with no dedicated department of state, so for instance, we are i with no dedicated department of. state, so for instance, we are just about _ state, so for instance, we are just about to _ state, so for instance, we are just about to hear _ state, so for instance, we are just about to hear from _ state, so for instance, we are just about to hear from mr— state, so for instance, we are just about to hear from mr tomlinson, state, so for instance, we are just i about to hear from mr tomlinson, the previous— about to hear from mr tomlinson, the previous minister— about to hear from mr tomlinson, the previous minister for— about to hear from mr tomlinson, the previous minister for disabled - previous minister for disabled people. — previous minister for disabled people. who _ previous minister for disabled people, who has _ previous minister for disabled people, who has a _ previous minister for disabled people, who has a wood i previous minister for disabled people, who has a wood wasl previous minister for disabled - people, who has a wood was located in a junior— people, who has a wood was located in a junior position _ people, who has a wood was located in a junior position in _ people, who has a wood was located in a junior position in the _ in a junior position in the department— in a junior position in the department for- in a junior position in the department for work- in a junior position in the | department for work and in a junior position in the - department for work and pensions with no_ department for work and pensions with no direct _ department for work and pensions with no direct leadership— department for work and pensions with no direct leadership of- department for work and pensions with no direct leadership of the - with no direct leadership of the cabinet — with no direct leadership of the cabinet disability— with no direct leadership of the cabinet disability unit, - with no direct leadership of the cabinet disability unit, and - with no direct leadership of the. cabinet disability unit, and other core _ cabinet disability unit, and other core participants _ cabinet disability unit, and other core participants for— cabinet disability unit, and other core participants for instance - core participants for instance children. _ core participants for instance children, ethnic— core participants for instance children, ethnic minorities . core participants for instance i children, ethnic minorities and violence — children, ethnic minorities and violence against _ children, ethnic minorities and violence against women - children, ethnic minorities and violence against women and l children, ethnic minorities and . violence against women and girls, can point— violence against women and girls, can point to — violence against women and girls, can point to variants _ violence against women and girls, can point to variants of _ violence against women and girls, can point to variants of the - violence against women and girls, can point to variants of the same i can point to variants of the same problem — can point to variants of the same problem in _ can point to variants of the same problem. in terms _ can point to variants of the same problem. in terms of _ can point to variants of the same problem. in terms of building - can point to variants of the same i problem. in terms of building back better, _ problem. in terms of building back better, would _ problem. in terms of building back better, would the _ problem. in terms of building back better, would the future _ problem. in terms of building back better, would the future solution l better, would the future solution lie better, would the future solution tie in _ better, would the future solution tie in the — better, would the future solution lie in the creation _ better, would the future solution lie in the creation of _ better, would the future solution lie in the creation of an - better, would the future solution lie in the creation of an equalityl lie in the creation of an equality department— lie in the creation of an equality department with _ lie in the creation of an equality department with the _ lie in the creation of an equality department with the secretary. lie in the creation of an equality. department with the secretary of state, _ department with the secretary of state, or— department with the secretary of state, or would _ department with the secretary of state, or would you _ department with the secretary of state, or would you suggest - department with the secretary ofi state, or would you suggest some other— state, or would you suggest some other structure _ state, or would you suggest some other structure and _ state, or would you suggest some other structure and change - state, or would you suggest some other structure and change of- other structure and change of approach? _ other structure and change of approach? i— other structure and change of approach?— other structure and change of a- roach? ~ ., .,

approach? i think i would leave the decisions on _ approach? i think i would leave the decisions on departments - approach? i think i would leave the decisions on departments of - approach? i think i would leave the decisions on departments of state | decisions on departments of state for governments to take. they reflect the priorities and the way a prime minister wishes to organise government, the manifesto on which they were elected. and i think i shouldn't presume to second guess that because that would be something that because that would be something that would be, as i say, subject to manifesto and an election. the reason for having ministers not necessarily colocated in a department with, for example, the unit, and to give much of the disabled unit, is because the responsibility moves between ministers regrettably too quickly, that has been a feature of our system recently. and what we did not want to do was move departmental units around. so there was a decision taken some years ago to essentially create some stability in the units responsible for these various issues whilst allowing prime ministers to appoint a minister for the disabled, a ministerfor women, and ministerfor other the disabled, a ministerfor women,

and minister for other groups. and support them wherever they might be located. again, it's a judgment call. one can make a case for doing it differently. there is clearly a case, as you suggest, for a department for equality, but i will punch that one into the political level of decision—making —— point that into the political decision—making because it will reflect the priorities of a government. it reflect the priorities of a government.— reflect the priorities of a government. . . government. if that is your stance, and i understand _ government. if that is your stance, and i understand what _ government. if that is your stance, and i understand what you - government. if that is your stance, and i understand what you would . government. if that is your stance, i and i understand what you would take that stance, _ and i understand what you would take that stance, is — and i understand what you would take that stance, is it— and i understand what you would take that stance, is it fair— and i understand what you would take that stance, is it fair to _ and i understand what you would take that stance, is it fair to say— and i understand what you would take that stance, is it fair to say that - that stance, is it fair to say that the nature _ that stance, is it fair to say that the nature of— that stance, is it fair to say that the nature of the _ that stance, is it fair to say that the nature of the system - that stance, is it fair to say that the nature of the system as - that stance, is it fair to say that the nature of the system as it. that stance, is it fair to say that. the nature of the system as it was in covid _ the nature of the system as it was in covid did — the nature of the system as it was in covid did pose _ the nature of the system as it was in covid did pose some _ the nature of the system as it wasj in covid did pose some challenges for holistic— in covid did pose some challenges for holistic views, _ in covid did pose some challenges for holistic views, for _ in covid did pose some challenges for holistic views, for instance, . in covid did pose some challenges for holistic views, for instance, of| for holistic views, for instance, of those _ for holistic views, for instance, of those who — for holistic views, for instance, of those who were _ for holistic views, for instance, of those who were socially - for holistic views, for instance, of. those who were socially vulnerable and the _ those who were socially vulnerable and the tii

vulnerable to covid itself is of the reason i brought simon case income of the firstjob i asked him to do when he came in from the royal household was to ask him to set up support for groups we call essential the socially vulnerable, in other words, not those who are medically vulnerable to covid but who were socially vulnerable to the impact of lockdown, we wanted to make sure we had programmes in place to support them as well. so i think it was... it ran through the work we do but of course, it will be for my lady to judge. i think eventually in the course of a later model, about its effectiveness. but certainly there was an attempt throughout, at least my period, the first lockdown etc, to ensure we were considering and supporting the most vulnerable groups in society. just supporting the most vulnerable groups in society.— supporting the most vulnerable groups in society. just so we can be clear, groups in society. just so we can be clear. though. _ groups in society. just so we can be clear, though, your— groups in society. just so we can be clear, though, your concerted - groups in society. just so we can be clear, though, your concerted work| clear, though, your concerted work on that— clear, though, your concerted work on that started _ clear, though, your concerted work on that started with _ clear, though, your concerted work on that started with simon - clear, though, your concerted work on that started with simon case - on that started with simon case coming — on that started with simon case coming into— on that started with simon case coming into partner— on that started with simon case coming into partner on - on that started with simon case coming into partner on that? i on that started with simon casei coming into partner on that? no, that was when _ coming into partner on that? no, that was when he _

coming into partner on that? that was when he came in coming into partner on that? iii, that was when he came in to essentially give some additional heft to a programme we had already begun. we set up, i think almost in parallel, programmes, we discuss the shielding programme earlier, but programmes to support and provide necessities etc to the medically vulnerable who need a particularly stringent form of lockdown quarantine, in effect quarantine. but we also recognised there were many people with complex needs for whom lockdown generally would be challenging and we set up a separate programme for that. challenging and we set up a separate programme forthat. simon challenging and we set up a separate programme for that. simon took that on but it predated him. thank you, my lady. on but it predated him. thank you, m lad . . ~ on but it predated him. thank you, m lad . ., ,, , ., on but it predated him. thank you, mlad. .mg ., on but it predated him. thank you, mlad. .,~, ., , , my lady. thank you. that completes the questions _ my lady. thank you. that completes the questions. thank _ my lady. thank you. that completes the questions. thank you _ my lady. thank you. that completes the questions. thank you very - my lady. thank you. that completes the questions. thank you very much| the questions. thank you very much for staying as long as you haven't for staying as long as you haven't for your patience. i hope we haven't trespassed on it too much.- for your patience. i hope we haven't trespassed on it too much. thank you m lad . trespassed on it too much. thank you my lady- we — trespassed on it too much. thank you my lady- we need _ trespassed on it too much. thank you my lady. we need to _ trespassed on it too much. thank you my lady. we need to break— trespassed on it too much. thank you my lady. we need to break now, - trespassed on it too much. thank you my lady. we need to break now, we | my lady. we need to break now, we shau my lady. we need to break now, we shall return — my lady. we need to break now, we shall return at _ my lady. we need to break now, we shall return at 20 _ my lady. we need to break now, we shall return at 20 past. _ shall return at 20 past. studio: you been listening to bbc news following the covid inquiry that has been taking place in

central london. plenty to go through, plenty of notes to be made, apologies if i don't always even looked down at some of the notes we've been taking, three key people to bear in mind that session with them following, firstly, lord marc sadler, the former cabinet secretary, the chief civil service at the time —— like lord sedwill. then there's hugo keith, the man who has been asking the questions, the counsel for the inquiry, has been involved in many inquests, notably represented the royal household in the inquest into the death of diana the inquest into the death of diana the princess of wales. and baroness diana hallett, the chair, a judge and also involved in many high—profile inquests and reviews of the years. and we began the session by looking at some of the whatsapp exchanges between lord sedwill and various government ministers and civil servants, and of course those messages and whether they have been

made public or not has been a key part of setting up this inquiry. you may remember my colleague chris mason questioning the prime minister as to whether he would make his whatsapp messages public during his time during the lockdown. of course the questions covered a range of topics, looked at the issue of dominic cummings and thatjourney up to barnard castle in the early days of the pandemic, and the impact that had on working with devolved assemblies and regional politicians and regional layers. there was also talk about an extended period on matt hancock, the former secretary, who of course left post after that footage was released of him being within the government building. and mark sedwill talked at length about some of the exchanges, the whatsapp exchanges that were had with regards to the secretary of state and health secretary. and also then many of the comments that were made by dominic cummings, borisjohnson's chief cummings, boris johnson's chief advisor, cummings, borisjohnson's chief advisor, we will go through all of

this was our correspondent who has following the developments inside the chamber there, she willjoin a shortly from outside, but while giving evidence to the inquiry, marc sedwill has apologised for suggesting chickenpox style parties could be held during the pandemic for the piece had it was made when the spreaders looking inevitable for the piece had it was made when the spreaders looking inevitable and was a way to mitigate it. the spreaders looking inevitable and was a way to mitigate it.— was a way to mitigate it. these are rivate was a way to mitigate it. these are private exchanges and _ was a way to mitigate it. these are private exchanges and i _ was a way to mitigate it. these are private exchanges and i was - was a way to mitigate it. these are private exchanges and i was not. private exchanges and i was not anticipating this becoming public, i understand how in particular the interpretation that has been put on it must have come across that someone in it must have come across that someone in my role was both heartless and thoughtless about this. and i genuinely am neither. but i do understand the distress that must have caused and i apologise for that, it certainly would not have been my intention and of course i was not the one who made it public. of course i was not the one who made it ublic. ~ ., ., ., it public. while we are following the developers _ it public. while we are following the developers of _ it public. while we are following the developers of the _ it public. while we are following the developers of the covid - it public. while we are following i the developers of the covid inquiry there is a purse plenty of other

things going on today. let's bring you a brief update on what's going on around the world and across the uk. let's start with the growing row over plans to hold a pro—palestinian march in london on saturday, which is armistice day. other demonstrations have already taken place in the metropolitan police as it does not have legal grounds for cancelling the event but rishi sunak has described the timing of the march of this respectful and says he will meet with the commissioner of the metropolitan police to discuss the metropolitan police to discuss the issue. , , . the metropolitan police to discuss the issue. , . , ., the issue. this is a decision the metr0politan — the issue. this is a decision the metropolitan police _ the issue. this is a decision the i metropolitan police commissioner the issue. this is a decision the - metropolitan police commissioner has made and he had said he can ensure we safeguard remembrance for the country this weekend as well as keep the public safe. myjob is to hold him accountable for that and we have asked the police for information on how they will ensure this happens, and i will be meeting the metropolitan police commissioner later today to discuss this and more broadly, my view is that these marches are disrespectful and that is what i will be discussing with

the police commission later today. meanwhile counterterrorism police are warning there could be an increased risk of attacks in the uk because of the conflict in israel and gaza. the last few weeks officers say there has been a fourfold rise in reports to the anti—terror hotline that have been useful to investigators. our home affairs correspondent has more details. day after day the horrors of the war between israel and hamas being fought in gaza and southern israel have been brought to people in britain through their televisions and social media. and counterterrorism officers are now warning that the conflict there could encourage extremists to carry out attacks here. irate could encourage extremists to carry out attacks here.— out attacks here. we are of course very worried- _ out attacks here. we are of course very worried. we _ out attacks here. we are of course very worried. we have _ out attacks here. we are of course very worried. we have seen - out attacks here. we are of course very worried. we have seen a - very worried. we have seen a significant increase in the volume of reports coming into counterterrorism policing from our communities. we have seen a quadrupling of reports directly linked to investigations. and we know from experience in the past that events across the globe and in the middle east can have a direct impact on events in the uk. that can have an effect, an energising effect

on people who may be considering or maybe even be planning to commit violent acts on uk soil, that could be the thing that tips them into actually going ahead and collecting those atrocities.— actually going ahead and collecting those atrocities. between the 7th of october and — those atrocities. between the 7th of october and the _ those atrocities. between the 7th of october and the 25th, _ those atrocities. between the 7th of october and the 25th, there - those atrocities. between the 7th of october and the 25th, there were i october and the 25th, there were around 1350 reports to the national anti—terror hotline, that's twice in the same period last year. some 200 of those reports were useful to investigators, a fourfold increase. at busy locations like london's trafalgar square police patrols are being carried out with extra vigilance. these patrols involve specially trained, highly visible officers engaging with the public, encouraging them to be vigilant while plainclothes officers watch for suspicious activity.— while plainclothes officers watch for suspicious activity. much like normal crime, _ for suspicious activity. much like normal crime, no _ for suspicious activity. much like normal crime, no matter- for suspicious activity. much like | normal crime, no matter whether for suspicious activity. much like - normal crime, no matter whether you are a _ normal crime, no matter whether you are a shoplifter or all the way up to and _ are a shoplifter or all the way up to and including terrorism, some form _ to and including terrorism, some form of— to and including terrorism, some form of hostile reconnaissance takes place _

form of hostile reconnaissance takes place and _ form of hostile reconnaissance takes place. and ouraim is form of hostile reconnaissance takes place. and our aim is to detect and disrupt— place. and our aim is to detect and disrupt that — place. and our aim is to detect and disrupt that hostile reconnaissance during _ disrupt that hostile reconnaissance during the — disrupt that hostile reconnaissance during the planning phase of a crime — during the planning phase of a crime. . ., ., crime. the police are asking the ublic crime. the police are asking the -ublic to crime. the police are asking the public to enjoy _ crime. the police are asking the public to enjoy the _ crime. the police are asking the public to enjoy the build-up - crime. the police are asking the public to enjoy the build-up to l public to enjoy the build—up to christmas, not to be afraid, but to be alert and vigilant and to report any concerns. in the last hour or so we've learned that carol vorderman is to leave her weekly show on bbc radio wales after breaking bbc guidelines by attacking the government on social media. the presenter, who has hosted the saturday morning show for five years now, is a vocal critic of the government on x, which was formerly known as twitter. the bbc recently published new impartiality rules for its stars and star. carol vorderman says she is not prepared to lose her voice on social media and managers have decided she must leave. she has almost 900,000 followers on her previous posts. one of them included on saturday, she posted, this iteration of the tory party needs to be actually dismantled at the next

election. labour mp has resigned as a shadow minister over sir keir starmer�*s position on the war between israel and gaza, saying the party should be calling for a ceasefire. he is the first member of the front bench to step down over the issue, saying he remained committed to labour's agenda but wants to remain a strong advocate for a ceasefire in gaza. shadow education secretary bridget philipson explained why labour was calling for a pause and not a ceasefire. calling for a pause and not a ceasefire-— calling for a pause and not a ceasefire. . ,, ,, ., , ceasefire. and sir keir starmer set out in his speech, _ ceasefire. and sir keir starmer set out in his speech, it _ ceasefire. and sir keir starmer set out in his speech, it would - ceasefire. and sir keir starmer set out in his speech, it would freeze i out in his speech, it would freeze the conflict. at the same time it risks allowing hamas to regroup and perpetuate further atrocities they've said they want the opportunity to do. but that humanitarian pause to allow for extra time to get into, for aid to get into gaza, is in line with what the us are calling for as well, i believe it is achievable, and i believe it is achievable, and i believe it is essential. so that we can alleviate suffering, get more aid in and make sure that we don't see children as the innocent victims

of this conflict.— of this conflict. that was a set shadow education _ of this conflict. that was a set shadow education secretary. l of this conflict. that was a set - shadow education secretary. here on bbc news we are following the covid inquiry that's taking place just down the road in central london. i want to bring in our political correspondent, who was inside the inquiry following developments for us. from your perspective, what were the key points made this afternoon when heard from lord sedwill, the former cabinet secretary? irate when heard from lord sedwill, the former cabinet secretary? we have had another _ former cabinet secretary? we have had another extraordinary - former cabinet secretary? we have had another extraordinary insight, | had another extraordinary insight, billy, into the kind of atmosphere, the goings—on at the very top of government in this huge crisis the country was facing in the early part of, most of 2020, which then mark sedwill was on the job for most of september that year —— march to september that year —— march to september that year —— march to september that year. he was a top civil servant in the land, he is not supposed to be political, is not supposed to be political, is not supposed to be political, is not supposed to give his opinions. but of course he is mandated to do so here in this inquiry. and he

admitted that in effect, he told borisjohnson to sack the then health secretary matt hancock, lord sedwill did not have confidence in matt hancock, did not believe he was competent enough to do the job. so in effect, yes, he said he left the prime minister under no illusions as to what he thought about matt hancock. and one of the features of this inquiry over the past couple of weeks or so has been some of the text message exchanges we have seen between senior officials. really quite striking when we were shown this afternoon, it went up on the screen very quickly and they removed it straight afterwards because it's clear the inquiry didn't really want us to see it in any great length, but it's between lord sedwill, as i say, cabinet secretary at the time, and simon case, who was permanent secretary at number ten at the time. and now he is cabinet secretary for the abso two of the most senior civil servants in the land, and the language is quite crude. —— is

cabinet secretary at the moment. he said, it is like taming wild animals, nothing in my past experience has prepared me for this madness, the pm and the people he chooses to surround himself with a basically feral. to lord sedwill replies, i have the bite marks. and later in the exchange, this is the really fruity bit, lord sedwill writes, hancock is so far up vj's cars, his ankles are brown. extraordinary to see what was going on behind the scenes. are there and we heard what lord sedwill had suggested the idea of chickenpox parties, very early in the pandemic. —— earlier on we heard that. it was being kicked around by senior government officials, this idea of herd immunity, that the virus spread, allow people to gain natural protection. that idea was quickly dropped when it was clear there would be intense pressure on the nhs, it would be overwhelmed and thousands of people would die. lord

sedwill said, look, i did make those comments, it was before the approach changed, and he apologised profusely for any offence those comments might have caused. for any offence those comments might have caused-— have caused. there was lots of focus on the operation _ have caused. there was lots of focus on the operation of _ have caused. there was lots of focus on the operation of that _ have caused. there was lots of focus on the operation of that central- on the operation of that central kind of government team, number ten team, and it was interesting that mark sedwill said he tried to insulate the rest of whitehall from the methodology, the way of working, of some of the decision—making that was happening in the central team, number ten, surrounding the prime minister and many of his advisors, and that it was a challenging period, in his words.- and that it was a challenging period, in his words. yes, again, one of the _ period, in his words. yes, again, one of the things _ period, in his words. yes, again, one of the things that _ period, in his words. yes, again, one of the things that has - period, in his words. yes, again, one of the things that has come l period, in his words. yes, again, l one of the things that has come up time and again in recent weeks is the general sense of chaos, frankly, inside number ten downing street. yes, it was an extreme with a difficult time, dealing with an unprecedented set of circumstances, but people have talked about a culture of sexism which led to certain issues affecting women being

overlooked, and also this idea of a superhero fight, that was how one official described it, lots of people brought in on a temporary basis, trying to get their opinions heard. lord sedwill said what he was trying to do is cabinet secretary was over recruit because he was aware lots of people would be taking time off work, either with covid or potentially with mental ill—health, and that's why he felt he needed to keep those gaps in the rotor, as at work in the field. so he said that was the right thing to do. but yes, mark sedwill clearly indicated right at the heart of this, the top, senior civil servant in the land, and that revelation that he told the prime minister to sack an elected politician in matt hancock, i am sure will be creating plenty of headlines this evening. matt hancock, i should say, himself will be giving evidence to this inquiry at some point before christmas. as for simon case, who i mentioned earlier, he too is yet to give evidence, he is currently offered with ill—health but again, he will be called to give evidence himself.

ant, peter, just talk to us about this relationship between civil servants... this frank exchanges and the fact he talked about levels of friction, and actually i'm going to interrupt my own question and say, the covid inquiry has reconvene, we can see it on screen, let's cross back and hear what they have to say. the evidence i should give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. i the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. i undertake that ou nothing but the truth. i undertake that you will _ nothing but the truth. i undertake that you will complete _ nothing but the truth. i undertake that you will complete your - nothing but the truth. i undertake i that you will complete your evidence today~ _ that you will complete your evidence toda . . �* , that you will complete your evidence toda . . v . that you will complete your evidence toda. , .,, that you will complete your evidence toda. , today. that's a promise, guarantee, we will finish _ today. that's a promise, guarantee, we will finish today, _ today. that's a promise, guarantee, we will finish today, thank— today. that's a promise, guarantee, we will finish today, thank you - today. that's a promise, guarantee, we will finish today, thank you for l we will finish today, thank you for making yourself available today, thank you for your patience and waiting, and thank you for your statements in assisting this inquiry with its investigations. just a few things before we start, if we can both keep our voices up on a secondly avoid over speaking first up secondly avoid over speaking first up there's a note been kept on for your evidence. and pace. pace of answers, if we could try and monitor

that pace and not speak too fast, it will assist the record which is being kept. the statement we see before us, thank you for providing thatis before us, thank you for providing that is dated 7th of august 2023. 67 exhibits, and you have had an opportunity to see that, and you have signed that statement with a declaration that it is true to the best of your belief and knowledge, is that correct? best of your belief and knowledge, is that correct?— is that correct? yes, that's right. thank you- _ is that correct? yes, that's right. thank you- in _ is that correct? yes, that's right. thank you. in relation _ is that correct? yes, that's right. thank you. in relation to - is that correct? yes, that's right. thank you. in relation to why - is that correct? yes, that's right. j thank you. in relation to why you are here, to assist the inquiry, it's regarding your role as minister for disabled people, health and work, and you held that role between january 2020 and the 16 september 2021. so these three lockdowns was during the period you when you held that position. and to assist you, i want to outline how we will deal with your oral evidence today, building upon your written evidence. two parts. first, structural, dealing with your role as minister of, the disability unit, which we will discuss in the moment, and how

that fits into governmental decision—making. it shouldn't take too much time, that's the first part. the second part, i want to explore some key events with you and we will deal with it in chronological order. and there are three broad themes i want you to consider and we will cover them as we go through that time period. firstly, visibility. was sufficient visibility, insight and data regarding needs of disabled people during the pandemic? secondly, engagement? was the engagement that was undertaken, and there was engagement undertaken, was that sufficient? and did that fit into decision—making? and lastly, delay. where the needs of disabled people sufficiently and promptly considered during the pandemic? so the three areas i would like us to cover in part two. i know your statement covers other areas. and the loss promised to take, you have had one already, at the end i will give you the opportunity to add anything you

think a significant as if the inquiry with its investigation and lessons learned. —— back the lost promise. if your background, we see it in paragraph five of your statement, you became an mp in 2010, member of parliament. 2015, you were appointed by then prime minister david cameron to serve the parliamentary under secretary of state for disabled people. that's paragraph six. in paragraph seven, we know rejoined government as a minister within the department for work and pensions, first as an undersecretary and then later as a minister of state, minister for disabled people and health in 2019. that is the role we will ask you about. so you had been in position in that row before the pandemic to place. so, against that background, part one, structure. so the role of minister, firstly, the ministerfor disabled people, health and were, is within the department for work and

pensions. i think you were described as having a junior position, a short time ago. but it was the second most senior ministerial position within the dwp, is that correct? senior ministerial position within the dwp, is that correct?- the dwp, is that correct? that's riuht. the dwp, is that correct? that's right- the _ the dwp, is that correct? that's right. the first _ the dwp, is that correct? that's right. the first time _ the dwp, is that correct? that's right. the first time i _ the dwp, is that correct? that's right. the first time i served - the dwp, is that correct? that's right. the first time i served as| the dwp, is that correct? that's| right. the first time i served as a nrinister— right. the first time i served as a minister for— right. the first time i served as a minister for disabled people i was a parliamentary undersecretary when i returned _ parliamentary undersecretary when i returned the second time, the role had been _ returned the second time, the role had been upgraded to minister of state, _ had been upgraded to minister of state, so — had been upgraded to minister of state, so i was in effect number two in the _ state, so i was in effect number two in the department for work and pensions — in the department for work and pensions. �* . , in the department for work and pensions. . ,, . ., , ., ,, ., pensions. and as secretary of state, the most senior— pensions. and as secretary of state, the most senior minister _ pensions. and as secretary of state, the most senior minister within - pensions. and as secretary of state, the most senior minister within that | the most senior minister within that department and at cabinet level, to ease a coffee at that stage? —— was therese coffey at that stage. and in terms of the group of disabled people whose interests you are seeking to represent, that's a huge group. i would draw your attention 21% of people in britain are disabled, that's14.1 million disabled, that's 14.1 million people. of disabled, that's14.1 million people. of that, 8% are children and

19% of the working age population. and 44% of pension age adults. just to be clear. — and 44% of pension age adults. just to be clear, that's disabled or those — to be clear, that's disabled or those with long—term health conditions, and it's predominantly bodies _ conditions, and it's predominantly bodies and — conditions, and it's predominantly bodies and minds can't fight to keep up bodies and minds can't fight to keep up with— bodies and minds can't fight to keep up with us, — bodies and minds can't fight to keep up with us, with age. it what surprises— up with us, with age. it what surprises a lot of people is the prevalence later in age rather than necessarily... prevalence later in age rather than necessarily. . ._ prevalence later in age rather than necessarily... yes. you said 21% in britain, i don't _ necessarily. .. yes. you said 21% in britain, i don't know— necessarily... jazz you said 21% in britain, i don't know how precise necessarily... 193 you said 21% in britain, i don't know how precise we have to _ britain, i don't know how precise we have to be, — britain, idon't know how precise we have to be, by— britain, i don't know how precise we have to be, by that _ britain, i don't know how precise we have to be, by that team _ britain, i don't know how precise we have to be, by that team in - britain, i don't know how precise we| have to be, by that team in england, wales, _ have to be, by that team in england, wales, scotland, _ have to be, by that team in england, wales, scotland, or— have to be, by that team in england, wales, scotland, orjust_ have to be, by that team in england, wales, scotland, orjust england? i have to be, by that team in england, | wales, scotland, orjust england? my wales, scotland, orjust england? terminology, you should say united terminology, you should say united kingdom. 50 terminology, you should say united kinudom. , terminology, you should say united kinadom. , kingdom. so it is the united kingdom- — kingdom. so it is the united kingdom. there _ kingdom. so it is the united kingdom. there is _ kingdom. so it is the united| kingdom. there is variation, kingdom. so it is the united - kingdom. there is variation, there is a greater _ kingdom. there is variation, there is a greater prevalence _ kingdom. there is variation, there is a greater prevalence in - kingdom. there is variation, there is a greater prevalence in wales i kingdom. there is variation, there i is a greater prevalence in wales and possibly— is a greater prevalence in wales and possibly scotland, i can't remember, but certainly one in five was the stat that — but certainly one in five was the stat that we would generally use. we ma stat that we would generally use. may touch on stat that we would generally use. 9 may touch on that document in a moment but on any basis, it is one

in five, a substantial proportion of the population. and in terms of your role as that minister, if we could bring up paragraph to a, back to page one, please, thank you. —— paragraph 2a. your response ability as minister of state, it says some specific disability policy and governmental response ability for disabled people. can i focus on that for a moment? when you say some specific disability responsibility, why the provocation? so specific disability responsibility, why the provocation?— specific disability responsibility, why the provocation? so for example, i was why the provocation? so for example, l was solely — why the provocation? so for example, i was solely responsible _ why the provocation? so for example, i was solely responsible for— i was solely responsible for disability benefits. -- i was solely responsible for disability benefits.- i was solely responsible for disability benefits. -- why the qualification? _ disability benefits. -- why the qualification? that _ disability benefits. -- why the qualification? that would - disability benefits. -- why the i qualification? that would amount about £13-6 _ qualification? that would amount about £13.6 billion _ qualification? that would amount about £13.6 billion of _ qualification? that would amount| about £13.6 billion of government about {13.6 billion of government expenditure, that was predominantly through— expenditure, that was predominantly through my dwp role, but in other areas _ through my dwp role, but in other areas i _ through my dwp role, but in other areas i would make representations on behalf— areas i would make representations on behalf of disabled people to other— on behalf of disabled people to other responsible departments, for example. _ other responsible departments, for example, if i had a stakeholder meeting —

example, if i had a stakeholder meeting and they raised accessible train stations, then i would relay that to _ train stations, then i would relay that to the — train stations, then i would relay that to the department for transport, who are ultimately responsible for how accessible stations— responsible for how accessible stations are or are not. so responsible for how accessible stations are or are not.- responsible for how accessible stations are or are not. so to use our stations are or are not. so to use your terminology — stations are or are not. so to use your terminology in _ stations are or are not. so to use your terminology in the - stations are or are not. so to use i your terminology in the statement, your terminology in the statement, you are in effect where the champion of disability rights within government?— of disability rights within government?- the i of disability rights within government? yes. the second part of our role government? yes. the second part of your role that — government? yes. the second part of your role that l _ government? yes. the second part of your role that i want to touch upon his oversight of the disability unit, known as the du, perhaps we can deal with that now, paragraph nine of your statement, and you describe the disability unit, and this is quite a relevant part of structural of how the interests of disabled people are represented within government. this was formed in november 2019, and it brought together the office for disability issues. in relation to the office for disability issues, that was within dwp. and that was when you were in your ministerial post. and that became the disability unit, and

migrated over to