down under, miles away. we cannot go on with the numbers coming to britain that are coming. | do you know why? i'm one of the numbers! is now the right time for tax cuts, chancellor? we're paying more and more tax, too. even though the chancellor's big boast this week was cutting specific tax back, as well as claiming that public services will be protected. even though there is a painful squeeze ahead. politicians have a lot of big problems to try to fix. hammer tapping. but our main question this morning — are they being straight with you and me? we'll talk to two chiefs — the tories' chief secretary to the treasury, laura trott, is with us for the first time. her rival, darrenjones for labour — their shadow chief secretary, joins us from bristol too. migration�*s on every leader's agenda. the greek prime minister kyriakos mitsotakis is here to talk to us

before he gets together with rishi sunak and keir starmer. music: doctor who theme and we'll take a journey through space and time — with doctor who's companion, and legendary comic, catherine tate. whatever! 100%, it will always be, i'm sure, the bestjob i've ever had. really? 100%. i think david and i both feel that. it's 100% the bestjob. with me at the desk — richard tice leader of reform uk the party, who fancies gobbling up the tories' vote. with a public sector squeeze on the cards, christina mcanea head of the mega union unison and with energy bills on the rise again, alistair philips—davies, boss of the energy firm sse. let's see what is making

the news this morning. on the front pages... the sunday times leads with the israeli hostage releases — we'll talk to clive myrie on the ground in israel in a second. but notice an intriguing story there claiming reform uk offered a prominent tory cash to defect. the sunday mirror has a picture of 9—year—old emily hand who was released by hamas yesterday evening — with her dad saying, my darling girl is broken but in one piece. the observer also features the hostage returns — but a note on migration too, which we'll talk about a bit later warning curbing it would hit social care. the sunday express also goes on migration, focusing on tory mps concerns about small boats. and the images of the hostage releases are likely to dominate the news today. this is so moving to watch — the nine—year—old irish—israeli girl emily hand, one of the group of hostages released,

reuinted here with her dad who you might have seen interviewed in the last couple of weeks. emily has been taken to a hospital in tel aviv. let's talk to clive who's there. it must be quite an atmosphere there this morning, what is going on? well, just referring to those pictures of thomas and emily together. it is astonishing. thomas was told that emily was dead as the result of the hamas attack on october the 7th. he went through all of the stages of grief, denial, acceptance, pain. and when he was told that she was dead, he believed that would be betterfor told that she was dead, he believed that would be better for her, told that she was dead, he believed that would be betterfor her, rather than her being held hostage in gaza.

then he was told two weeks later that actually they didn't have proof that actually they didn't have proof that she was dead, that in fact she was alive. i spoke to him just after that. i do hope he and the rest of his family had was that she would be returned, and that happened last night, with the amazing pictures of them hugging. and a reunion that happened to 12 other families with 12 of the hostages released yesterday. the second group of hostages to be released by hamas over the last two days. we know the israelis have already been given the list of 13 israeli hostages that hamas intends to release tonight, if everything goes according to plan. and emily is being evaluated here with some of the other hostages released yesterday, here at the hospitaljust behind me. the hope is that the deal will continue through to its allotted end point, which is in four days' time, on monday, and

then possibly an extension for another five days. then possibly an extension for anotherfive days. so, a number of hostages released. that's in return for palestinians to be released from israeli jails. the hope is that this can continue and that the pause in the fighting allowing aid into gaza can also continue. finch the fighting allowing aid into gaza can also continue.— can also continue. such hopes for the families _ can also continue. such hopes for the families that _ can also continue. such hopes for the families that have _ can also continue. such hopes for the families that have been - can also continue. such hopes for i the families that have been terribly affected by this. what impact do you think good news for some families will have on the wider conflict? does the pause make any longer term difference to what is going on? it’s difference to what is going on? it's a reall difference to what is going on? it�*s a really important question. at the moment, both sides are getting what they want. hamas is getting a pause in the fighting, allowing aid into gaza. it is also getting respite from the incessant bombing from israel. so, it's being able to regroup, is to a certain extent, and thatis regroup, is to a certain extent, and that is something they wanted. the israelis are getting what they want. they are getting some of their hostages back. but once the

potential nine day period is over, and 50 israeli hostages have been returned in exchange for 150 palestinian prisoners, then what? the israelis have already made it clear they want the destruction of how mass, they are not going to stop that. —— hamas. hamas make it clear in their charter that they want the destruction of israel and they will continue their campaign. there is a respite for the moment and that is welcomed by both parties here. but ultimately it is likely the fighting will continue, despite the concerns of the international community that a disproportionate number of civilians are dying in gaza, as a result of israel's campaign. so, yes, while there is a respite at the moment, it is highly likely we are going to see the fighting continue at some point in the future. thank ou, and at some point in the future. thank you. and you _ at some point in the future. thank you. and you can _ at some point in the future. thank you, and you can watch _ at some point in the future. thank you, and you can watch coverage i at some point in the future. thankl you, and you can watch coverage of the unfolding events from clive and

the unfolding events from clive and the rest of our colleagues in the middle east for the rest of the day on bbc news. let's talk about some stories in the papers. richard, we hinted at an intriguing story in the sunday times, claiming your party offered a huge amount of cash to lee anderson in order to defect, they have a secret recording, they say, of him saying that two tory activists. of him saying that two tory activists-_ of him saying that two tory activists. �* ., , _ ., ., activists. i'm happy to confirm that i've had numerous— activists. i'm happy to confirm that i've had numerous discussions - activists. i'm happy to confirm that| i've had numerous discussions with activists. i'm happy to confirm that l i've had numerous discussions with a number of tory mps, ministers, former ministers, who are absolutely furious with the complete betrayal of the government's promises, furious with the failure to stop the boats, furious with opening the borders to mass immigration. obviously i will keep those discussions completely confidential. but let me make it absolutely clear, no cash or money has in any way been offered. what has been offered is the chance to change the shape of the chance to change the shape of the debate. what has really happened here is that lee anderson has used

the threat of defecting to reform to negotiate himself the deputy chairmanship of the tory party. this story first appeared almost exactly the same, in the times back in february when, coincidentally, he was made deputy chairman of the tory party. was made deputy chairman of the tory -a . ~ was made deputy chairman of the tory .a _ ~ , was made deputy chairman of the tory party. murky events and mr anderson is not here to — party. murky events and mr anderson is not here to defend _ party. murky events and mr anderson is not here to defend himself, - party. murky events and mr anderson is not here to defend himself, but - is not here to defend himself, but you made your position clear. i'm interested you say you have had a conversation with a number of mps, and ministers, and former ministers. maybe we will pick up on that later. we are going to talk a lot about migration, and we will speak to you about that later. we had a huge number this week, record levels of people coming here, perfectly legally, and it is often the fact that businesses say we need this, the economy needs this. is that the case? is that true?— case? is that true? obviously it is a hue case? is that true? obviously it is a huge political — case? is that true? obviously it is a huge political debate _ case? is that true? obviously it is a huge political debate at - case? is that true? obviously it is a huge political debate at the - a huge political debate at the moment. i think businesses do need skills. _ moment. i think businesses do need skills. llul— moment. i think businesses do need skills, but they are in specific areas — skills, but they are in specific areas for— skills, but they are in specific areas. for us on the energy sector that i— areas. for us on the energy sector that i operate in, we are putting a huge _ that i operate in, we are putting a

huge amount of effort in with government to retraining people, taking _ government to retraining people, taking people from the oil and gas sector_ taking people from the oil and gas sector and — taking people from the oil and gas sector and bringing them into renewable industries. in certain areas, _ renewable industries. in certain areas. but _ renewable industries. in certain areas, but clearly we don't need all of the _ areas, but clearly we don't need all of the numbers that are perhaps being _ of the numbers that are perhaps being talked about. if of the numbers that are perhaps being talked about.— being talked about. if you train --eole, being talked about. if you train people. maybe _ being talked about. if you train people. maybe you _ being talked about. if you train people, maybe you don't - being talked about. if you train people, maybe you don't have | being talked about. if you train l people, maybe you don't have to being talked about. if you train - people, maybe you don't have to take them from abroad. christina, the health service and social care in particular is, right now, really reliant on migration. we can see that in the numbers, it's crystal clear. what would it take to change that? it clear. what would it take to change that? ., ., ~ ., clear. what would it take to change that? ., .,~ ., , , ., that? it would take a pretty long term strategy. — that? it would take a pretty long term strategy, particularly - that? it would take a pretty long l term strategy, particularly around care _ term strategy, particularly around care theree— term strategy, particularly around care. there's never— term strategy, particularly around care. there's never been- term strategy, particularly around care. there's never been a - term strategy, particularly around care. there's never been a properj care. there's never been a proper plan _ care. there's never been a proper plan for— care. there's never been a proper plan for the — care. there's never been a proper plan for the care _ care. there's never been a proper plan for the care sector. - care. there's never been a proper plan for the care sector. the - plan for the care sector. the government— plan for the care sector. the governmentjust _ plan for the care sector. the government just crosses - plan for the care sector. the government just crosses its| plan for the care sector. the - government just crosses its fingers and hope _ government just crosses its fingers and hope things— government just crosses its fingers and hope things will— government just crosses its fingers and hope things will happen. - government just crosses its fingersj and hope things will happen. there would _ and hope things will happen. there would need — and hope things will happen. there would need to— and hope things will happen. there would need to be _ and hope things will happen. there would need to be a _ and hope things will happen. there would need to be a proper- and hope things will happen. there would need to be a proper plan- and hope things will happen. there would need to be a proper plan oni would need to be a proper plan on how you _ would need to be a proper plan on how you would _ would need to be a proper plan on how you would train _ would need to be a proper plan on how you would train people, - would need to be a proper plan on how you would train people, howl would need to be a proper plan on. how you would train people, how you would _ how you would train people, how you would recruit— how you would train people, how you would recruit people. _ how you would train people, how you would recruit people. it's— would recruit people. it's predominantly— would recruit people. it's predominantly based - would recruit people. it's predominantly based oni would recruit people. it's- predominantly based on minimum would recruit people. it's— predominantly based on minimum wage. it's predominantly based on minimum wage. it's not _ predominantly based on minimum wage. it's not seen _ predominantly based on minimum wage. it's not seen as_ predominantly based on minimum wage. it's not seen as a — predominantly based on minimum wage. it's not seen as a particularly— it's not seen as a particularly attractive _ it's not seen as a particularly attractive job, _ it's not seen as a particularly attractive job, and _ it's not seen as a particularly attractive job, and there - it's not seen as a particularly attractive job, and there is. it's not seen as a particularlyi attractive job, and there is no proper— attractive job, and there is no proper structure _ attractive job, and there is no proper structure where - attractive job, and there is no| proper structure where people attractive job, and there is no- proper structure where people are recognised — proper structure where people are recognised for _ proper structure where people are recognised for the _ proper structure where people are recognised for the different - proper structure where people are recognised for the different skillsi recognised for the different skills they bring — recognised for the different skills they bring to _ recognised for the different skills they bring to it _ recognised for the different skills they bring to it. fit— recognised for the different skills they bring to it.— they bring to it. a big challenge, we'll come _ they bring to it. a big challenge, we'll come back _ they bring to it. a big challenge, we'll come back to _ they bring to it. a big challenge, we'll come back to these - they bring to it. a big challenge, we'll come back to these issues | we'll come back to these issues later once we have talked to the

government minister. the chancellor was coy about his plan for the autumn statement, but on wednesday, he boasted of tax cuts he spelled—out. alongside a public spending squeeze, in his autumn statement. but those headlines were quickly replaced with alarm at levels of migration that broke the records. not concern over channel crossings, that has used up so much political oxygen, but the numbers of people coming to the country perfectly legally with the government's permission. the prime minister said the numbers must come down, but we've heard that before. net migration needs to come down radically, from hundreds of thousands a year, to just tens of thousands. we are all committed to what was said in a conservative party manifesto, which was that we were going to bring net migration down to sustainable levels, that means not the hundreds of thousands that we have seen in recent decades. get brexit done, and then we really do take back control— of our immigration policy, - for everybody around the world. so, i want to bring the levels of legal migration down. we are crystal clear about that.

laura trott — the brand new chief secretary, a fortnight into herjob, is here now. welcome to the studio, for the first time. the former minister, jacob rees—mogg, said this week you have failed on immigration and he has apologised to the public. should you do the same? the apologised to the public. should you do the same?— apologised to the public. should you do the same? the prime minister has acknowledged — do the same? the prime minister has acknowledged that _ do the same? the prime minister has acknowledged that the _ do the same? the prime minister has acknowledged that the levels - do the same? the prime minister has acknowledged that the levels of - acknowledged that the levels of migration are too high, they are not sustainable. the ons has said that they are coming down, which is positive news, but we are taking further steps, including positive news, but we are taking furthersteps, including in positive news, but we are taking further steps, including in may, positive news, but we are taking furthersteps, including in may, one of the biggest measures to cut migration ever, about limiting the number of student dependence that can come over. that number of student dependence that can come over-— can come over. that is something that has already _ can come over. that is something that has already been _ can come over. that is something that has already been announcedl can come over. that is something l that has already been announced by the government, that may or may not make some difference. ijust want the government, that may or may not make some difference. i just want to emphasise the scale of this. look at the figure. 672,000 people added to the figure. 672,000 people added to the population. that's like adding the population. that's like adding the city of glasgow, nearly as many as adding the city of leeds to the country. this is not something that has happened by accident, this is happening under your watch, under the weight government policy has

been built up. i want to show people what it means in the breakdown. let's look at the three biggest groups. students, 643,000 people, care workers, 101,000 people. nurses, 23,000. you've said clearly it has to come down, who don't you want to come? i it has to come down, who don't you want to come?— want to come? i can talk to each of the individual _ want to come? i can talk to each of the individual measures, _ want to come? i can talk to each of the individual measures, the - want to come? i can talk to each of the individual measures, the prime minister was clear, we are taking long—term decisions on each of these. on students, he made the announcement in may that we are limiting the number of dependents that students can bring over, that comes in from january. care workers and nurses, we introduced a long—term plan for nhs workforce, which will mean that we are training more people in this country to do those jobs. more people in this country to do those jobs-— those jobs. these are long-term decisions. _ those jobs. these are long-term decisions, you've _ those jobs. these are long-term decisions, you've already - those jobs. these are long-term decisions, you've already had . those jobs. these are long-term| decisions, you've already had the long term, you had 13 years and this is what has happened. i long term, you had 13 years and this is what has happened.— is what has happened. i think outside of — is what has happened. i think outside of the _ is what has happened. i think outside of the specific - is what has happened. i think. outside of the specific numbers, is what has happened. i think- outside of the specific numbers, in the last couple of years, there have been unique circumstances. we've seen that with ukraine, we've seen that with hong kong. i think everyone listening at home would

have supported us bringing this people over. the have supported us bringing this people over-— have supported us bringing this people over. have supported us bringing this --eole over. , , . ., people over. the biggest change we have seen this _ people over. the biggest change we have seen this week _ people over. the biggest change we have seen this week is _ people over. the biggest change we have seen this week is in _ people over. the biggest change we have seen this week is in terms - people over. the biggest change we have seen this week is in terms of. have seen this week is in terms of the number of people coming here to work. that is what all of the evidence shows. if we look at one sector, let's look at care, if we look at the numbers of care workers, in march 2022, that is when visas started being granted, because the holes in the care service was so big you have to appeal to people from abroad. now it is up, at 30,000 being approved every quarter. that is wh this being approved every quarter. that is why this year _ being approved every quarter. trust is why this year we brought forward a £600 million plan to train more people to do social care in this country. so we are taking concrete steps. i'm notjust saying i wanted to come down, i am saying we are taking concrete steps to bring it down. ., x' , taking concrete steps to bring it down. ., a , ., ., ,, ., down. how quickly will not make a difference? _ down. how quickly will not make a difference? if— down. how quickly will not make a difference? if you _ down. how quickly will not make a difference? if you look _ down. how quickly will not make a difference? if you look at - down. how quickly will not make a difference? if you look at what - down. how quickly will not make a difference? if you look at what we | difference? if you look at what we did it me autumn _ difference? if you look at what we did it me autumn statement - difference? if you look at what we did it me autumn statement this | did it me autumn statement this week, the measures we have taken will increase the number of people working domestically by over 70,000, the steps we took in the spring budget are 100,000. we are

increasing the size of the british workforce, as well as taking steps to make sure we are limiting any abuse or exploitation of the system. at the moment it is government policy to allow bosses to pay foreign workers 20% less if british staff are thin on the ground. do you think it is ok to allow businesses to undercut british workers like that? the prime minister is looking at all measures to bring this down... t at all measures to bring this down... ., �* ., ., ., at all measures to bring this down... .,�* ., ., ., ., , down... i don't want to point to any concrete steps _ down... i don't want to point to any concrete steps we _ down... i don't want to point to any concrete steps we have _ down... i don't want to point to any concrete steps we have already - down... i don't want to point to any l concrete steps we have already taken that will bring these numbers down and would like to take an abuse or exploitation. and would like to take an abuse or exploitation-_ exploitation. there are so much exasperation — exploitation. there are so much exasperation in _ exploitation. there are so much exasperation in your _ exploitation. there are so much exasperation in your own - exploitation. there are so much exasperation in your own party. exploitation. there are so much - exasperation in your own party about this. the former home secretary says you should look at a cap, we understand the immigration minister robertjenrick might not be far behind and he wants you to be tougher but is there one measure you can tell us about today that is not something already announced that you

are actually going to say? plenty of ideas around, borisjohnson wanted to put up the salary threshold, the labour party wants you to get rid of the 20% threshold... tet labour party wants you to get rid of the 20% threshold. . ._ labour party wants you to get rid of the 2096 threshold... yet ask me when these things — the 2096 threshold... yet ask me when these things are _ the 2096 threshold... yet ask me when these things are going _ the 2096 threshold... yet ask me when these things are going to _ the 2096 threshold... yet ask me when these things are going to come - the 2096 threshold... yet ask me when these things are going to come in - these things are going to come in and i have pointed in with main steps already earlier in the year cracking down on numbers but also this week increasing the workforce in the uk. you've had a panel discussion about that be vital, as having concrete steps to increase the number of domestic workers... can you tell us about new measures she will take in the light of recent figures? she will take in the light of recent fi . ures? ~ . she will take in the light of recent fiaures? ~ . . she will take in the light of recent fiaures? ~ ., ., , , ., she will take in the light of recent fiuures? ., ., , i. , figures? what are plenty of measures this week. what _ figures? what are plenty of measures this week. what they _ figures? what are plenty of measures this week. what they don't _ figures? what are plenty of measures this week. what they don't appear - figures? what are plenty of measures this week. what they don't appear to | this week. what they don't appear to be working. we only took them this week. , ., ,, ., week. the funny thing talking to tenants are _ week. the funny thing talking to tenants are better _ week. the funny thing talking to tenants are better politicians - week. the funny thing talking to | tenants are better politicians like even talking about migration it's like something thatjust happened rather than this being the product of decisions you made over the

years? you have control on this, you had control of the sense we let the eu and since then the numbers have gone through the roof. the eu and since then the numbers have gone through the roof.— gone through the roof. the nature has changed _ gone through the roof. the nature has changed over _ gone through the roof. the nature has changed over time, _ gone through the roof. the nature has changed over time, we - gone through the roof. the nature - has changed over time, we introduced a points—based system you're totally right after we left the eu, we have seen a large number coming over as a result of hong kong and ukraine, i think that was the right decision and now we are doing more to control the number of people coming over by lamenting the mac limiting the number of student dependence. but these things will take years to make a difference. it is these things will take years to make a difference-— a difference. it is announced earlier this _ a difference. it is announced earlier this year _ a difference. it is announced earlier this year it _ a difference. it is announced earlier this year it will - a difference. it is announced earlier this year it will start l a difference. it is announced l earlier this year it will start to make a difference and it is important that people see we are taking concrete steps and talking about this. ads, taking concrete steps and talking about this. �* ., ., ,, taking concrete steps and talking about this. . ., ., ,, ., about this. a lot of us might have seen our little _ about this. a lot of us might have seen our little tape _ about this. a lot of us might have seen our little tape of _ about this. a lot of us might have seen our little tape of successive l seen our little tape of successive conservative prime ministers making a promise to bring things down and then they know the numbers have gone up? exactly the point, you want people to have confidence that the

steps you take make a difference but looking at the record, people wouldn't be forgiven for thinking the promises are not worth the paper that they are written on? this the promises are not worth the paper that they are written on?— that they are written on? this is a com - lex that they are written on? this is a complex problem _ that they are written on? this is a complex problem over _ that they are written on? this is a complex problem over time. - that they are written on? this is a complex problem over time. if. that they are written on? this is a | complex problem over time. if you think about we had a lot of people ten years ago coming through the channel tunnel... ten years ago coming through the channel tunnel. . ._ ten years ago coming through the channel tunnel. .. that were stopping eo - le channel tunnel. .. that were stopping people coming _ channel tunnel. .. that were stopping people coming here _ channel tunnel. .. that were stopping people coming here to _ channel tunnel. .. that were stopping people coming here to work- channel tunnel. .. that were stopping j people coming here to work perfectly legally. ihie people coming here to work perfectly leaall . ~ . people coming here to work perfectly leaall.~ ., , legally. we are absolutely determined _ legally. we are absolutely determined to _ legally. we are absolutely determined to stop - legally. we are absolutely determined to stop the i legally. we are absolutely i determined to stop the boats legally. we are absolutely - determined to stop the boats and stop that happening but this is something that wasn't an issue at... we should remind viewers that is a fraction of the number one talking about overall figures. you are right, it's complicated but let's talk about the chancellor boasting about tax cuts he has made and claiming he can protect public services but when the independent number crunch is looked at us this is how they describe the reality of your cuts to national insurance. these changes get back less than £1 these changes get back less than e1 of people £4 that is being given the

mac taken away from hassles through changes to national insurance and income tax announced since march 21. isn't that then in the simplest of terms a bit misleading for your boss the chancellor to say fantastic, we have given everyone a tax cut for and what you are doing is given one pan for a party taken away? he. and what you are doing is given one pan for a party taken away? no. you are riaht pan for a party taken away? no. you are right to — pan for a party taken away? no. you are right to point _ pan for a party taken away? no. you are right to point out _ pan for a party taken away? no. you are right to point out this _ pan for a party taken away? no. you are right to point out this was - pan for a party taken away? no. you are right to point out this was a - are right to point out this was a big tax fiscal event and it means that someone on an average wage is £450 better off through national insurance cuts but i do not shy away from the fact we've had to take difficult decisions to be back the debt of the pandemic and supporting people's energy bills but because of those decisions will managed to halve inflation, any noninflationary way and the economy is turning a corner and i contrast that to the labour party who refuse to take difficult decisions saying we should not have had to pay back the pandemic that. i

not have had to pay back the pandemic that.— not have had to pay back the andemic that. ., ., ., pandemic that. i will ask a labour party representative _ pandemic that. i will ask a labour party representative about - pandemic that. i will ask a labour party representative about that i party representative about that later in the programme. it's very important that you are clear about the overall picture here, the overall picture for our viewers is that the tax burden is going up and “p that the tax burden is going up and up and up and up. that that the tax burden is going up and up and up and up-_ up and up and up. that is not true for people — up and up and up. that is not true for people on _ up and up and up. that is not true for people on average _ up and up and up. that is not true for people on average wages, - up and up and up. that is not true | for people on average wages, their taxes would have been cut by £1000 on average since 2010. for some of the highest earners we asked them to take on more of a burden. you the highest earners we asked them to take on more of a burden.— take on more of a burden. you no wonder viewers _ take on more of a burden. you no wonder viewers will— take on more of a burden. you no wonder viewers will have - take on more of a burden. you no wonder viewers will have seen - take on more of a burden. you no| wonder viewers will have seen and heard taxes are going to reach a post—war high. the overall tax burden is going up but shouldn't you be straight with people? i am burden is going up but shouldn't you be straight with people?— be straight with people? i am being straiaht, if be straight with people? i am being straight. if you _ be straight with people? i am being straight, if you are _ be straight with people? i am being straight, if you are an _ be straight with people? i am being straight, if you are an average - straight, if you are an average income earner because of the changes we make your tax burden will have gone down significantly. we have been very open about the fact if you are on some of the highest wages we have asked you to take a high

burden, but a policy decision but the overall direction, we have turned a corner and we will bring taxes down but will do it any noninflationary way. you taxes down but will do it any noninflationary way.- taxes down but will do it any noninflationary way. you are going to be done — noninflationary way. you are going to be done some _ noninflationary way. you are going to be done some taxes _ noninflationary way. you are going to be done some taxes but - noninflationary way. you are going to be done some taxes but the - to be done some taxes but the overall burden is going up, i want people to understand that but an important point, you've made the decision to give tax back by pencilling in cuts to public spending in the years to come. public spending has gone up by 3% since 2019, it's going to go up by 1% in real terms up to 2020 eight, in the next parliament and that is a rise in public spending. it will mean that the amount we are spending on public spending is £85 billion higher in real terms than it was... it's about the total overall pick in some parts of the public purse are protected like hospitals and schools but there are pencilled in cuts of a huge amount to parts of the public purse not protected whether that's

councils, courts and prisons so surely you must acknowledge that is the case? , ., _ surely you must acknowledge that is thecase? , ., _ , the case? these are policy decisions and we will — the case? these are policy decisions and we will set _ the case? these are policy decisions and we will set them _ the case? these are policy decisions and we will set them out _ the case? these are policy decisions and we will set them out in - the case? these are policy decisions and we will set them out in the - the case? these are policy decisions and we will set them out in the nextj and we will set them out in the next manifesto how we spend the money but the trouble of the amount of money we are spending is going up and it's important people at home recognise that. it’s important people at home recognise that. �* , ., important people at home recognise that. �*, ., ., that. it's not the same asset going u . that. it's not the same asset going u- across that. it's not the same asset going up across government _ that. it's not the same asset going up across government but - that. it's not the same asset going up across government but these i that. it's not the same asset going | up across government but these are complicated areas and it's great to have you with us new into yourjob. as someone in charge of looking at government spreadsheets, are you good at managing your own finances, you good at managing your own finances, y°u pay good at managing your own finances, you pay your bills on time? oi you pay your bills on time? of course i pay you pay your bills on time? oi course i pay my bills on time, i have come from a pensions job and have come from a pensions job and have an economics background and this is a dream job for me. this is a dream 'ob for me. dreaming of this is a dream job for me. dreaming of spreadsheets! _ this is a dream job for me. dreaming of spreadsheets! laura, _ this is a dream job for me. dreaming of spreadsheets! laura, thank - this is a dream job for me. dreaming of spreadsheets! laura, thank you i this is a dream job for me. dreaming| of spreadsheets! laura, thank you so much for coming in and i am sure we will see you soon. what do you think? let us know. email us... at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or on social use the hashtag #bbclaurak

and we'll try and share some of the converation later and you can follow the story as it unfolds on the website, the address is there. the uk is not alone in struggling with its economy, and grappling with the numbers of people who want to make europe their new home. not so long ago greece was groaning under enormous debt and trying to cope with many, many thousands of people arriving on its shores. the man often credited with turning round its economy, who was rewarded with a thumping majority in summer elections, is the prime minister, kyriakos mitsoutakis who i'm delighted to say is with us this morning. welcome. good morning and thank you for having me. good morning and thank you for having me— good morning and thank you for havin: me. , . ., ., ., ,, having me. greece has had to grapple with migrants — having me. greece has had to grapple with migrants arriving _ having me. greece has had to grapple with migrants arriving on _ having me. greece has had to grapple with migrants arriving on its _ having me. greece has had to grapple with migrants arriving on its shores i with migrants arriving on its shores but you have cut the numbers and not so long ago the home secretary until recently visited samos in the aegean sea and she said she thought the uk

had a lot to learn from greece so do you think there are things we have to learn? igrate you think there are things we have to learn? ~ ., , ., to learn? we have implemented a to er for to learn? we have implemented a topper for migration _ to learn? we have implemented a topper for migration policy - to learn? we have implemented a topper for migration policy which l topper for migration policy which starts with the fundamental premise you need to limit the number of boats leaving the shores of turkey and we have been able to do that successfully, granted or geography is different to yours so maybe some analogies may not be relevant but they have been able to significantly reduce the number of people arriving on the greek islands which of course is a big relief for the population and we have been successful in processing asylum applications relatively quickly so i say overall we have changed the narrative of migration and we have also convinced europe that you cannot manage the migration problem unless you place particular emphasis on the external dimension of migration watch as protecting the common borders. in 2015 you have more than 800,000 people arriving, the latest figures

are not down to 35,000 so far this year but part of the way you handled it was an eu wide deal with turkey, the uk has struggled to get a return steel was france and outside the eea that might be quite tricky but do you think it's realistic the ego would actually try to help the uk with this? in would actually try to help the uk with this? ., .., , ., would actually try to help the uk with this? ., , ., ., with this? in our case we want to work with — with this? in our case we want to work with turkey _ with this? in our case we want to work with turkey and _ with this? in our case we want to work with turkey and turkey - with this? in our case we want to work with turkey and turkey is i with this? in our case we want to work with turkey and turkey is a | work with turkey and turkey is a country of transit and we do so both bilaterally but also within the context of the european union. it seems to me you have a different type of problem when i was looking at the numbers. a significant number of the people arriving in the uk right through illegal pathways and what we see in europe is you need to contain the problem of irregular arrivals while at the same time offering legal pathways to migration. if you look at our economy we are looking at agricultural workers, unemployment is under 10% for the first time in many years. so we need to balance

protecting our borders with offering legal pathways to migration and returning those who are not granted asylum to their countries of origin. this has proven to be tricky not just for the uk but also for europe because we need to cooperate with these countries and they are not always particularly forthcoming. but there has been some criticism from charities and other refugee groups that the approach that greece has taken has sometimes been much too harsh and strict and you have been too tough to get the numbers down? in the summer there was an overcrowded boat carrying migrants under capsized and hundreds of people died. there is the boat, i am sure people will remember the new story. your course god has come under pressure over the way it was handled and they claim the boat was on a safe and steady course, some of our colleagues found the boat had hardly moved in the hours before then and the bbc has also verified

footage that shows the coastguard the boat foundering at sea during the boat foundering at sea during the time the authorities claim it was not in need of rescue. there's been a lot of controversy around us, do you accept your coastguard got some things wrong? igrate do you accept your coastguard got some things wrong?— some things wrong? we are investigating _ some things wrong? we are investigating this _ some things wrong? we are investigating this incident i some things wrong? we are l investigating this incident but some things wrong? we are - investigating this incident but what i would like to point out, laura, is that our course god has saved tens of thousands of people at sea and we should be grateful for the work that better. —— our coastguard. we feel we have a right to intercept boats at sea and at the same time encourage these boats to return from where they left the tragedy of this book is that it left the coast of libya in the first place and that is why it is important to work with transit countries. looking at this photo, it is difficult to do it a lot about an overcrowded boat, we asked about whether they wanted assistance, they refused assistance, they wanted to get to italy and at they wanted to get to italy and at the end of the day, we should hold

the end of the day, we should hold the smugglers accountable. essen the end of the day, we should hold the smugglers accountable. even the council of europe _ the smugglers accountable. even the council of europe has _ the smugglers accountable. even the council of europe has expressed - council of europe has expressed concerns about the actions of the greek coastguard so do you think they might have got some things wrong? i they might have got some things wron: ? . they might have got some things wront? ., , . , wrong? i am saying this incident is bein: wrong? i am saying this incident is being investigated _ wrong? i am saying this incident is being investigated and _ wrong? i am saying this incident is being investigated and also - wrong? i am saying this incident is being investigated and also by - wrong? i am saying this incident is. being investigated and also by great justice and i will be it at that but it is important to point the finger at the smugglers because they are the ones responsible for offering people, but desperate people think is a safe passage and they end up on this boat and they realise this is a dangerous trip and that is why i insist so much on making sure the boats do not let the coast in the first place and that is why we are working with turkey and the turkish coast god and that is the way to save lives. coast god and that is the way to save lives-— save lives. let's talk about the fact ou save lives. let's talk about the fact you may — save lives. let's talk about the fact you may be _ save lives. let's talk about the fact you may be working - save lives. let's talk about the fact you may be working with l save lives. let's talk about the i fact you may be working with the save lives. let's talk about the - fact you may be working with the uk. our viewers will have heard of the elgin marbles, or the person sculptures, brought here in the 19th

century by lord elgin, here are the ones in the british museum, there they are in their home in athens so at the moment they are not together, you set for a long time david very much like to have them back stop where do you think they look better? i think the answer is very clear, they don't look better in the acropolis museum, a state—of—the—art museum built for that purpose and this is not a question of returning artefacts whose ownership we question. —— they do look better. this is a reunification argument, where can you best appreciate what is essentially one monument? if i told you you cut the mona lisa in half and you are top half of it in the british museum and half of that at the loofah do you think the viewers would appreciate the beauty of the painting in such a way? this is what happened with the parthenon

sculptures and that is we keep lobbying for a deal that would essentially be a partnership between greece and the british museum patch of which would allow us to return the scorchers to greece and have people appreciate them in their original setting. you people appreciate them in their original setting.— people appreciate them in their original setting. you said you were confident if— original setting. you said you were confident if you _ original setting. you said you were confident if you are _ original setting. you said you were confident if you are re-elected - original setting. you said you were confident if you are re-elected and confident if you are re—elected and you happen to be elected that the elgin marbles would return to greece or are you confident there will be a deal, have you a hotline to george osborne at the british museum? igrate osborne at the british museum? we have osborne at the british museum? - have not made as much progress as i would like in the negotiations but again, i am a patient man and we have waited for hundreds of years and i will persist in these discussions.— and i will persist in these discussions. ., ~ , ., , discussions. you think you will be able to do — discussions. you think you will be able to do it _ discussions. you think you will be able to do it in _ discussions. you think you will be able to do it in your— discussions. you think you will be able to do it in your timeframe? i j able to do it in your timeframe? i hope so. i still have a full term, i am just elected, it is unusual in these days in europe for prime minister to be rewarded for thejob they do but i think we have done

that, turned around the country, the economy is performing especially well and we are growing faster fridge following a previous debate about taxes and the burden on average people, we had lower taxes but driven up growth so in our case, we can convincingly say the difficult days for greece are behind us. the reports are suggesting that keir starmer has indicated he would give them back to greece if he becomes prime minister, is that true? i don't know, i would have to meet keir starmer and the prime minister tomorrow, and maybe i will let you know afterwards. that tomorrow, and maybe i will let you know afterwards.— know afterwards. that would be wonderful- _ know afterwards. that would be wonderful. great _ know afterwards. that would be wonderful. great to _ know afterwards. that would be wonderful. great to have - know afterwards. that would be wonderful. great to have you i know afterwards. that would be i wonderful. great to have you here in the studio, ahead of seeing the leader of labour and the prime minister. thank you very much indeed forjoining us. there is lots to ponder there from the prime minister, and from laura trott. isa is a chief secretary to the treasury, she was discussing all sorts of things about tax on

migration, and not really wanting to admit, christina mcanea, that some of the decisions in the autumn statement last week forjeremy hunt will not actually just statement last week forjeremy hunt will not actuallyjust hand everybody a giant tax cut. is quite clear most — everybody a giant tax cut. is quite clear most people _ everybody a giant tax cut. is quite clear most people will _ everybody a giant tax cut. is quite clear most people will not - everybody a giant tax cut. is quite clear most people will not be i everybody a giant tax cut. is quite i clear most people will not be better off as a result of this, because the overall tax burden has increased on everyone in this country. particularly lower paid working people have seen their tax bill go up, notjust income tax, but the way that taxation is applied, across so many other things. frankly, what happened last week was a return to austerity mark two. they brought back cameron, it seems that they have brought back their policies that he had. theyjust seem to be going ahead with that, with no thought about what it means. and they have never grasped, the conservatives have never grasped the fundamental principle that we believe, that investing in public services helps you grow your economy. without a flourishing public sector, you actually damage

the private sector, because people can't go to work because there is a decent health care service, they can't go to work if you have not invested in schools, you need both to be working together. the invested in schools, you need both to be working together.— to be working together. the reality is, ublic to be working together. the reality is, public spending _ to be working together. the reality is, public spending has _ to be working together. the reality is, public spending has increased i to be working together. the reality| is, public spending has increased in the last— is, public spending has increased in the last 20 — is, public spending has increased in the last 20 years, from 35% of the size of— the last 20 years, from 35% of the size of the — the last 20 years, from 35% of the size of the economy, up to 47%. and public— size of the economy, up to 47%. and public services have never been worse — public services have never been worse. extraordinary from laura trott~ _ worse. extraordinary from laura trott. . �* , worse. extraordinary from laura trott. ., �*, ., , , worse. extraordinary from laura trott. , trott. that's also because there has been... spending _ trott. that's also because there has been... spending the _ trott. that's also because there has been... spending the money - trott. that's also because there has been... spending the money badly. | been... spending the money badly. the marker— been... spending the money badly. the marker that _ been... spending the money badly. the marker that is _ been... spending the money badly. the marker that is not _ been... spending the money badly. the marker that is not true. - been... spending the money badly. the marker that is not true. there . the marker that is not true. there been _ the marker that is not true. there been an— the marker that is not true. there been an increase... the has been an increase in demand, as there is for most public services. demand is up all the time. if you look at the nhs, the nhs needs 4% or 5% per yearjust to stand still. when inflation was very high, it was higher than that. and i hear the government saying things like, well, we have increased our spending, we are now spending more

on the nhs. it's a bit like... that's true, but there are more people demanding services. so the per person amount they are giving to the nhs has actually gone down. richard, shouldn't you be happy about what the tories said, they are giving tax cuts?— giving tax cuts? laura trott was completely _ giving tax cuts? laura trott was completely disingenuous, i giving tax cuts? laura trott was completely disingenuous, when j giving tax cuts? laura trott was i completely disingenuous, when you dil completely disingenuous, when you dig into _ completely disingenuous, when you dig into the detail, the obr has confirmed growth is down from where they said _ confirmed growth is down from where they said it— confirmed growth is down from where they said it was in march. net income. — they said it was in march. net income, per person, mainly because of the _ income, per person, mainly because of the huge — income, per person, mainly because of the huge increase in immigration, down~ _ of the huge increase in immigration, down~ taxes, — of the huge increase in immigration, down. taxes, up. public sector debt, up. unemployment, up. the truth is, people _ up. unemployment, up. the truth is, people on— up. unemployment, up. the truth is, people on low incomes, because they have frozen— people on low incomes, because they have frozen the threshold for many years _ have frozen the threshold for many years and _ have frozen the threshold for many years and for the last five years, it is the — years and for the last five years, it is the least well off, the lowest paid, _ it is the least well off, the lowest paid, that — it is the least well off, the lowest paid, that will suffer the most. we are increasing the threshold up to 20,000, — are increasing the threshold up to 20,000, and that policy of ours is the right— 20,000, and that policy of ours is the right one, it will take over 6 million — the right one, it will take over 6 million people from paying any income — million people from paying any income tax at all. you million people from paying any income tax at all.— million people from paying any income tax at all. you also think that migration _ income tax at all. you also think that migration is _ income tax at all. you also think that migration is far _ income tax at all. you also think that migration is far too - income tax at all. you also think that migration is far too high i income tax at all. you also think| that migration is far too high and you would cut that down. but without migration, the economy would have a

massive halt, because the reason many people are... the massive halt, because the reason many people are. . ._ massive halt, because the reason many people are... the economy is haltin: many people are... the economy is halting already _ many people are... the economy is halting already and _ many people are... the economy is halting already and we _ many people are... the economy is halting already and we have - many people are... the economy is halting already and we have had i many people are... the economy is i halting already and we have had mass migration _ halting already and we have had mass migration. that this proves that point _ migration. that this proves that point the — migration. that this proves that point. the obr says that mass immigration means that per head incomes— immigration means that per head incomes are down by record numbers. this is— incomes are down by record numbers. this is a _ incomes are down by record numbers. this is a complete betrayal, with no democratic— this is a complete betrayal, with no democratic consent. brexit was about taking _ democratic consent. brexit was about taking control of our borders. the government promised they would do so, they— government promised they would do so, they promised in the last election— so, they promised in the last election manifesto that numbers would _ election manifesto that numbers would come down from 200,000. they have tripled _ would come down from 200,000. they have tripled. i think the next election— have tripled. i think the next election will be an immigration election — election will be an immigration election. 35m election will be an immigration election. �* , ,., ., election. an interesting point, do ou think election. an interesting point, do you think that _ election. an interesting point, do you think that is _ election. an interesting point, do you think that is right, _ election. an interesting point, do you think that is right, christina? | you think that is right, christina? i think people like richard who were so passionate about brexit, as were lots of our members, they completely lied to the british public, all of this stuff about taking back control of our borders. i didn't say you, i said people like you who sold brexit to the public on false premises, that they would somehow magically take control of the borders. what

has happened, there is actually less people... more people are going back to the eu than coming here, and immigration is now coming from all parts of the world.— immigration is now coming from all parts of the world. youtube, hammer and tonus, parts of the world. youtube, hammer and tongs. having _ parts of the world. youtube, hammer and tongs, having a _ parts of the world. youtube, hammer and tongs, having a great _ parts of the world. youtube, hammer and tongs, having a great time - parts of the world. youtube, hammer and tongs, having a great time at i and tongs, having a great time at it, but i want to bring in alistair, because you run a big company. while there is always political debate about the right decisions or the wrong decisions that have been taken, in terms of your business, your sector, taken, in terms of your business, yoursector, people's taken, in terms of your business, your sector, people's bills will be going up again, the energy cap has gone up, and we know that there are huge logjams and getting big energy projects through. the government says they want to speed up the planning, but we've heard many times about the difficulties in getting it done. what is the biggest barrier for you at the moment? it done. what is the biggest barrier for you at the moment?- done. what is the biggest barrier for you at the moment? it can take ten lus for you at the moment? it can take ten plus years _ for you at the moment? it can take ten plus years to — for you at the moment? it can take ten plus years to get _ for you at the moment? it can take ten plus years to get a _ for you at the moment? it can take ten plus years to get a wind farm i ten plus years to get a wind farm built, the majority of the time is spent in consenting. ten plus years. so we are building the world's

biggest offshore wind farm at dogger bank, it will complete in 2026. getting through consenting is a massive thing. we need to roughly double what we are building, in terms of offshore wind, by 2030, to hit the targets. getting that consenting done is right. going back to what the chancellor said, it was at least very positive that he offered tax incentives for investing, in terms of full expensing. investing, in terms of full expensing-_ investing, in terms of full expensing. investing, in terms of full ex-uensin. .,, ., , expensing. he said it was a big business tax _ expensing. he said it was a big business tax cut. _ expensing. he said it was a big business tax cut. that - expensing. he said it was a big business tax cut. that will i expensing. he said it was a bigj business tax cut. that will help with growth. — business tax cut. that will help with growth, jobs _ business tax cut. that will help with growth, jobs and - business tax cut. that will help with growth, jobs and with i with growth, jobs and with attracting companies like ours. we have 20 plus billion to spend over the next few years, and many other companies investing. there is a great market in the country for things like offshore wind, flexible thermal, and we need to improve the consenting. it is thermal, and we need to improve the consentina. , , . ., consenting. it is the big climate conference _ consenting. it is the big climate conference next _ consenting. it is the big climate conference next week, - consenting. it is the big climate conference next week, cop, i consenting. it is the big climate | conference next week, cop, the conservatives have been criticised quite a lot in the last few months for backsliding on some of their commitments in this area. the prime

minister, slowing down areas of the net zero commitments. do you feel that in your sector, that the government is not quite as enthusiastic as that used to be? i've certainly seen some of those statements. fora i've certainly seen some of those statements. for a business perspective, what we have seen, even though things like internal combustion engines, there was rowing back to 2035, to allow the public more time to adjust to that, and also with heat pumps. the key thing is investment in networks. what we heard on the same speech was an acceleration in network investment, enabling this to happen. i still see the incentives there. what the chancellor said back that up. from a business perspective, i think we are still seeing this government to move forward, and it's hopefully still got another year or so where it can make a big difference. igrate got another year or so where it can make a big difference.— make a big difference. we will see what happens _ make a big difference. we will see what happens at — make a big difference. we will see what happens at cop _ make a big difference. we will see what happens at cop and - make a big difference. we will see what happens at cop and we i make a big difference. we will see | what happens at cop and we might discuss that next week, it's always an important meeting for environmental leaders and politicians from all over the world. richard, as you are here, some of our viewers will have been watching your pal with interest, nigel farage

in thejungle. look your pal with interest, nigel farage in the jungle. look away from the screen, perhaps, if people are worried about things being revealed too much. but in terms of the politics of where you and he are at, a few minutes ago, talking a good game about how you're going to play into the next election, the last set of local elections, you only got six seats. the element of the reality is that we are going to stand everywhere in england, scotland and wales. every single seat.— wales. every single seat. people think we are _ wales. every single seat. people think we are going _ wales. every single seat. people think we are going to _ wales. every single seat. people think we are going to do - wales. every single seat. people think we are going to do a - wales. every single seat. people think we are going to do a deal i wales. every single seat. people i think we are going to do a deal with the tories, absolutely not, they need polishing for breaking britain, they need completely and utterly ousting. when nigel gets back from thejungle, given all of ousting. when nigel gets back from the jungle, given all of the stuff he has been eating and drinking, goodness me, he might need a couple of days off, but he will be absolutely furious, as are millions of people up and down the country, about these huge mass immigration numbers, changing the nature of our country, making us poorer financially and making us poorer culturally. financially and making us poorer culturall . ~ _, . ,, financially and making us poorer culturall . ~ ., culturally. will he come back and t to

culturally. will he come back and try to take _ culturally. will he come back and try to take your _ culturally. will he come back and try to take yourjob, _ culturally. will he come back and try to take yourjob, richard? i i try to take yourjob, richard? i have said i want as much help as possible. but i'm a bit more ambitious. i like the idea of president farage and president trump. i president farage and president trum -. .., president farage and president trum, president farage and president trum. ,., president farage and president trum. ., trump. i can say you are fizzing? when i trump. i can say you are fizzing? when i hear _ trump. i can say you are fizzing? when i hear people _ trump. i can say you are fizzing? when i hear people saying i trump. i can say you are fizzing?j when i hear people saying things like it— when i hear people saying things like it will— when i hear people saying things like it will affect our country culturally, i have heard you say this before, i have heard nigel farage — this before, i have heard nigel farage say it as well, i don't even know— farage say it as well, idon't even know what— farage say it as well, i don't even know what that means. we are a country — know what that means. we are a country where people come from all over the _ country where people come from all over the world, i am the grandchild of migrants — over the world, i am the grandchild of migrants from ireland. my culture is probably— of migrants from ireland. my culture is probably very different from yours — is probably very different from yours it's_ is probably very different from yours. it's an appalling way to turn things— yours. it's an appalling way to turn things into — yours. it's an appalling way to turn things into a — yours. it's an appalling way to turn things into a culture war. tony blair, david — things into a culture war. tony blair, david cameron... i- things into a culture war. tony| blair, david cameron... i don't things into a culture war. tony i blair, david cameron... i don't care what they said. _ blair, david cameron... i don't care what they said. we _ briefly, we must move on. what do you mean by saying our culture changes? you mean by saying our culture chances? , , ., �* , ,, changes? the sense of britishness, who we are. _

changes? the sense of britishness, who we are. our — changes? the sense of britishness, who we are, our christian _ changes? the sense of britishness, who we are, our christian values i changes? the sense of britishness, . who we are, our christian values and ethos, that is the base of our single british culture. that is what we want people to unify under. we welcome smart, sensible levels of immigration, mass immigration, people living in silos, different cultures, that is not good for the country. it cultures, that is not good for the count . , . ~ cultures, that is not good for the count . , ., ~ ., country. it is harking back to the 19405. absolute _ country. it is harking back to the 19405. absolute nonsense. i'm. country. it is harking back to the i 19405. absolute nonsense. i'm sure there will rtot _ 19405. absolute nonsense. i'm sure there will not be _ 19405. absolute nonsense. i'm sure there will not be unity _ 19405. absolute nonsense. i'm sure there will not be unity between i 19405. absolute nonsense. i'm sure there will not be unity between you | there will not be unity between you on the panel, but it's great to hear a lively debate. let's stick with the theme of migration. darrenjones, the party's chief secretary to the treasury, the man with the giant calculator, joins us from bristol. hello. keir starmer sate net migration was shockingly high. what would the right level be? well. migration was shockingly high. what would the right level be?— would the right level be? well, he said that because _ would the right level be? well, he said that because the _ would the right level be? well, he said that because the numbers i would the right level be? well, he said that because the numbers of| said that because the numbers of work visas that have gone out in the last dataset are much, much higher than normal. so the question is, why is that much higher than normal? no,

the question — is that much higher than normal? no, the question was what would a reasonable level be.— reasonable level be. well, the normal level _ reasonable level be. well, the normal level as _ reasonable level be. well, the normal level as a _ reasonable level be. well, the normal level as a couple i reasonable level be. well, the normal level as a couple of i reasonable level be. well, the i normal level as a couple of hundred thousand per year. but it depends on the needs and the economy. that is why the important question is, if there are lots of vacancies in the economy, why have we got people who are out of work in the uk, who should be able to access training, skills and jobs that exist in their local area, and that is why it is an abnormal set of numbers, abnormally high number of work visas, especially in the health and social care system, which reflects problems in a way that the nhs is being run by the government. igrate in a way that the nhs is being run by the government.— in a way that the nhs is being run by the government. we have been discussin: by the government. we have been discussing that _ by the government. we have been discussing that already, _ by the government. we have been discussing that already, thank i by the government. we have been discussing that already, thank you j discussing that already, thank you for dealing with a slight delay on the line, but you mentioned a couple of hundred thousand as being a normal figure. of hundred thousand as being a normalfigure. so if labour wins the election, should people then expect that you would be looking to set immigration levels at around about a couple of hundred thousand per year as a normal kind of level? weill. couple of hundred thousand per year as a normal kind of level?— as a normal kind of level? well, the conservatives _ as a normal kind of level? well, the conservatives are _ as a normal kind of level? well, the conservatives are trying _ as a normal kind of level? well, the conservatives are trying to - as a normal kind of level? well, the conservatives are trying to set i conservatives are trying to set targets and caps and failed every

single year whilst they have had them. what we have to do is make sure that when there are problems, and the prime example here is the health and social care system, that we are getting to the root cause of the problem, where we don't have sufficient labour availability locally in the uk. that's for two reasons and the national health service. one is that we need a proper nhs workforce plan, which my colleague, wes streeting, has set out in detail. the second is that we need to improve the productivity of our public services so that they are more efficient, so that you don't need as many people in order to be able to run them. that is why we are ultimately relying on a lot of overseas labour to keep the show on the road. and we are grateful for their contribution, but it's reflective of underlying problems in public services that need modernising.— public services that need modernising. public services that need modernisinu. ., a , ., public services that need modernisinu. ., , ., , ., modernising. how quickly do you think, if you _ modernising. how quickly do you think, if you win _ modernising. how quickly do you think, if you win the _ modernising. how quickly do you think, if you win the next - modernising. how quickly do you i think, if you win the next election, you could make a difference to that? you outline the exceptional circumstances that led to the numbers being so high, but how fast could you make a change if you win the election?—

the election? there are some immediate — the election? there are some immediate things _ the election? there are some immediate things we - the election? there are some immediate things we can i the election? there are some immediate things we can do. | the election? there are some i immediate things we can do. that is why we have said we will close the non—dom tax status and put over £1 billion to support overtime payments on the national health service, to get through the backlog, which is still very large and increasing. that is a short—term issue. the reason keir starmer talks about mission orientated government and an end to sticking plaster politics is because i have to be frank with you, it'll time to fix some of these problems. after 13 years of the conservatives in government, we have a deep structural problems in our economy. a deep structural problems in our econom . ., y a deep structural problems in our econom . ., , a deep structural problems in our econom . ., , .,~ economy. how quickly could you make a difference to — economy. how quickly could you make a difference to the _ economy. how quickly could you make a difference to the immigration - a difference to the immigration numbers? do you think the business of getting migration to what you described as a normal level of a couple of hundred thousand per year, is that something labour hope to achieve in the first term of government, if you win? i achieve in the first term of government, if you win? i think we robabl government, if you win? i think we probably would _ government, if you win? i think we probably would hope _ government, if you win? i think we probably would hope to _ government, if you win? i think we probably would hope to do - government, if you win? i think we probably would hope to do that, i government, if you win? i think we l probably would hope to do that, yes. we talked about a decade of national renewal, not because well being presumptuous about the selection or the next one, but because we think

the next one, but because we think the deep structural problems we have been left from the conservatives after the last 13 years is going to take time to fix. it's going to take time to turn around. the one thing you can be sure of is that after 13 years of the conservatives in government, they created these problems they don't have the energy or the idea is to fix them, and we in the labour party will if we get the chance to the country. let’s the chance to the country. let's talk about _ the chance to the country. let's talk about who _ the chance to the country. let's talk about who you _ the chance to the country. let's talk about who you would - the chance to the country. let's talk about who you would act i the chance to the country. let's talk about who you would act on public spending, you've already mentioned it will be tough and tight but he backed the tories tax cuts they announced this week, the implication of packing those is that you bag a squeeze on public spending that's been pencilled in to pay for them so where do you think in government money could be cut? let's be clear. government money could be cut? let's be clear- there — government money could be cut? let's be clear. there was _ government money could be cut? let's be clear. there was a _ government money could be cut? let�*s be clear. there was a headline tax cut in national insurance which we support because the tax burden on

working people is the highest it has beenin working people is the highest it has been in many decades, families and loved spending £4000 per year more in tax and they have a couple of hundred quid back and it's taken from one hand and giving with another. but the broader question as we have one of another batch is coming up in february or march time next year and we need to see what the final before we go into the next election and we will set at that detail in the manifesto once we see for the inheritance would be at the point of next election. you for the inheritance would be at the point of next election.— point of next election. you spend our life point of next election. you spend your life looking _ point of next election. you spend your life looking at _ point of next election. you spend your life looking at the _ point of next election. you spend your life looking at the stuff, - point of next election. you spend your life looking at the stuff, it . your life looking at the stuff, it is your job to your life looking at the stuff, it is yourjob to look carefully at government spending so can you name one part of the public spectre where you think cuts code and perhaps should be made? we you think cuts code and perhaps should be made?— you think cuts code and perhaps should be made? ~ ,, . should be made? we call them switch send, if should be made? we call them switch spend. if you — should be made? we call them switch spend. if you are _ should be made? we call them switch spend, if you are referring _ should be made? we call them switch spend, if you are referring to - should be made? we call them switch spend, if you are referring to my - spend, if you are referring to my time with the calculator in the

treasury team, things we've already identified that the conservatives spent money on not very effectively that we think we can spend more effectively to serve short—term problems, and is an example is the asylum backlog given that we been talking about migration figures today, there's been an underspend in certain budgets we think we can spend on recruiting senior caseworkers to make decisions quickly. another example, the capital budgets on school buildings haven't been spent effectively and we know we have problems with the setting up the concrete, we prioritise those budgets to make sure those issues are dealt with so there's a host of things we will be able to date but i cannot give you the full bells and whistles answer because we do not know what the account certainly would be inheriting.— account certainly would be inheriting. account certainly would be inheritin._ . ., ., ., f~ inheriting. what about that 28 billion you've _ inheriting. what about that 28 billion you've previously - inheriting. what about that 28 billion you've previously said i inheriting. what about that 28 i billion you've previously said you had spent a year on green investment by the end of the parliament? 0ur

colleagues in bbc news had a report that actually that might not happen by the end of the next parliament after all so are you committed to that or not? we after all so are you committed to that or not?— after all so are you committed to that or not? ~ ., _, ., that or not? we are committed to it sub'ect to that or not? we are committed to it subject to our _ that or not? we are committed to it subject to our fiscal _ that or not? we are committed to it subject to our fiscal rules _ that or not? we are committed to it subject to our fiscal rules on - that or not? we are committed to it subject to our fiscal rules on the - subject to our fiscal rules on the one most relevant to this estimable get national debt falling as a percentage of the size of the economy by the next parliament but we are confident we can do both and let me explain why. for we are investing alongside business to have more secure energy supplies so we can lower bills for people at home, investing alongside business to create newjobs, those activities will stimulate economic growth which means it will be easier to get a return from those investments and pay off the debt and get debt reducing as a percentage of the size of the economy and secondly we will mmp of the economy and secondly we will ramp up to £28 billion a year towards the end of the next parliament because it will take time to spend money effectively and we will only spend that effectively and

also in the listjust kwasi karteng period in government the cost of borrowing for the country was much higher and we will only borrow to invest alongside business when it is prudent to do so and subject to the fiscal rules. prudent to do so and sub'ect to the fiscal ml— prudent to do so and sub'ect to the fiscal rus— prudent to do so and sub'ect to the fiscal rules— fiscal rules. thank you so much for 'oininr fiscal rules. thank you so much for joining us. — fiscal rules. thank you so much for joining us, introducing _ fiscal rules. thank you so much for joining us, introducing the - fiscal rules. thank you so much for joining us, introducing the concept| joining us, introducing the concept of the switch spend and that might be something we hear more about in the years to come. now, are you a whovian? ? you might think politics and the news takes us to some weird and wonderful, or not so wonderful places. but whovians, doctor who fans, will know well that it is back on our screens, notjust with david tenant to mark the incredible 60th anniversary of the epic saga, but with the legendary catherine tate. she's also starring in a spooky new show, soon to be in the west end. but doctor who superfan or not, i had to ask her what it was like to be part of that british phenomenon. i don't believe in destiny. but if destiny exists... my house!

it is heading for donna noble. your fight is with me! i don't know if i can save your life this time. david's a massive doctor who fan and knows everything about it. i don't. and i didn't. i remember the doctor, tom baker, with his long scarf, and i kind of remember it. but i didn't used to watch it. so you're not one of the mega aficionados, the whovians, as they call themselves? i'm not, although i have to say i am... ..it�*s amazing to me that i'm part of this sort of massive conglomerate of... of an amazing collection of experiences, i suppose, you know, television experiences. and that's a character i play, you know, sort of staked her claim in, in this story. so it sort of happened by accident in a way? well, i guess it did and still to this day, i don't know why russell thought

it was a good idea to put me in it. i'm delighted that he did. and it will always be 100%, it will always be, i'm sure, the bestjob i've ever had. really? 100%. i think david and i both feel that it's 100% the best job we've ever had. and to get another bite of the cherry is extraordinary. sometimes i think there's something missing, like i had something lovely, and it's gone. i've got this his friend called donna noble. if she remembers me, she will die. we've got a martian in the shed! something entered this world. who are they? monsters. in terms of being scared of things, what you're working on now in this in this theatre is something very scary. i mean, a story from the '70s, a real life story about poltergeists and ghosts and spirits. why do you think people pay to have the bejesus scared out of them? what is it about horror? as soon as the lights

go down, the audience, they're already like this. they're already like that. and i think... ..i don't know. i suppose it's just something we want to be, we want to be affected by. and it's also... it's the unknown. we can't prove it, whether it's real or whether it's not. and i think there's something tantalising about that. and i guess that's what's drawing people to it. so if people aren't familiar with the story, then what's it about? well, it is about a real family in the '70s who moved into a house that the previous resident had died in, and they claimed that they were being haunted. and strange goings on were reported. the children were being affected by it. furniture was moving, noise, there was noise everywhere. and then suddenly crazy things started happening. it gripped the nation at the time, it was on the news, you know, it was in the front on the front page of the newspapers. the bbc did a documentary about it. but it divided people

because some people were, you know, very much saying, "oh, this is terrible." and some people are going, "absolutely not. how can you even believe it?" and i think it affected the family in a way that went way beyond what was what was going on in the house. do you believe it? do i believe it? i have to, i think, because of the story i'm trying to tell, what they're trying to tell. i have to hold the ambiguity because no—one can say if it's real or if it's not. i have my own theory about it. go on, then. but i don't think it's useful to say. i don't think it's useful to say, because also i don't know, you know? i don't know if it happened. but what i know is if something was happening and my children were being affected, and it got out of hand and then people then started to have opinions about that and judgments about that, i know, as a mother,

i'd want to protect my children. so, who can say? and i know that the lady, as i understand it, whose character i play, the mother of the children, i believe she, she lived the rest of her life absolutely claiming you don't know what happened, you can't tell us what what was true or what was not. do you think then that class and snobbery, and not listening to a woman came into the story? i think, absolutely. i think if this family that was being, you know, haunted or possessed or whatever, i think if they hadn't been a working—class family in a council house with a single mother, i think the story might have gone very different. i don't think they would have been taken advantage of the way they were. because they, ifeel from what i see, they were taken advantage of by everyone. look, we're doing a play about them now. it carries on. i hope we're not taking advantage of them because we are very much saying this is based...

sorry, we're not saying it's based on, we're saying it's inspired by true events, which is... which is different. we're not saying this is what happened and this is what they were like. we're saying, we've heard this story and it's inspired us to do this rendition of it. but, yeah, i absolutely think it's about class. you've had lots of different experiences in the industry as a stand—up, as an actress, as someone on tv and now again on stage. in your experience, has how women are treated in the industry changed over your time? or do you think women are sometimes still treated badly, or overlooked, or not given the credit they deserve? the metoo movement happened so quickly it felt like an oil tanker, instead of gradually going, the redressing of the balance, which was so needed and so overdue, it kind of went like that and it kind of created, i guess, a bit of a backlash. but 100%, we're getting there. it's getting better,

but it's ingrained in our culture for women to be sidelined, and spoken down to, and slightly ignored. the entertainment industry, i think is... ..responding well, as i hope everywhere else is. but yeah, it's, it's, it's a work in progress, i'd say. catherine, thank you so much for speaking to us today. thank you. catherine tate is queen of the tardis and lots of you have been in touch with us this morning. paul waters has been in touch. as has tracey turnbull. always a strong views on migration under nobody will be talking about it in the months to come as we head

towards the general election. how doctor who _ towards the general election. how doctor who fan? _ towards the general election. how doctor who fan? i _ towards the general election. fun-or doctor who fan? i was in my youth. i still am, doctor who fan? i was in my youth. i stillam, it's doctor who fan? i was in my youth. i still am, it's remarkable to have lasted 60 years, i rememberjohn pertwee. ., _ ., pertwee. david tennant by far the best doctor _ pertwee. david tennant by far the best doctor who _ pertwee. david tennant by far the best doctor who and _ pertwee. david tennant by far the best doctor who and i'm - pertwee. david tennant by far the best doctor who and i'm so - pertwee. david tennant by far the i best doctor who and i'm so pleased he's coming back. it's fantastic. you _ he's coming back. it's fantastic. you have — he's coming back. it's fantastic. you have stubborn both my lines, i can tell_ you have stubborn both my lines, i can tell you — you have stubborn both my lines, i can tell you a — you have stubborn both my lines, i can tell you a story _ you have stubborn both my lines, i can tell you a story in _ you have stubborn both my lines, i can tell you a story in blackpool. can tell you a story in blackpool about _ can tell you a story in blackpool about 50 — can tell you a story in blackpool about 50 years _ can tell you a story in blackpool about 50 years ago _ can tell you a story in blackpool about 50 years ago i— can tell you a story in blackpool about 50 years ago i hid - can tell you a story in blackpool about 50 years ago i hid behind| can tell you a story in blackpool. about 50 years ago i hid behind my mother— about 50 years ago i hid behind my mother from — about 50 years ago i hid behind my mother from the _ about 50 years ago i hid behind my mother from the dalek_ about 50 years ago i hid behind my mother from the dalek came - about 50 years ago i hid behind my mother from the dalek came out . about 50 years ago i hid behind my. mother from the dalek came out and i want to— mother from the dalek came out and i want to see _ mother from the dalek came out and i want to see the — mother from the dalek came out and i want to see the exhibition _ mother from the dalek came out and i want to see the exhibition and - mother from the dalek came out and i want to see the exhibition and i - want to see the exhibition and i remember— want to see the exhibition and i rememberthat_ want to see the exhibition and i remember that vividly- want to see the exhibition and i remember that vividly the - want to see the exhibition and i remember that vividly the first i want to see the exhibition and i - remember that vividly the first time abdattah _ remember that vividly the first time abdattah came _ remember that vividly the first time abdallah came for— remember that vividly the first time abdallah came for me. _ remember that vividly the first time abdallah came for me. 'i'he'jrt - abdallah came for me. they really are ruite abdallah came for me. they really are quite scary _ abdallah came for me. they really are quite scary they _ abdallah came for me. they really are quite scary they look - abdallah came for me. they really are quite scary they look a - abdallah came for me. they really are quite scary they look a bit - abdallah came for me. they really are quite scary they look a bit like | are quite scary they look a bit like the robotic cameras in the studio. i will say goodbye to that review before they come for us. in to better service. we were trying to work

out if our politicians are being as honest as they possibly could be when it comes to immigration and the country's income. the answer? perhaps not quite. the tories and the labour party both want to tell you there are too many people are coming to the uk. but as we heard they are a bit more shy when it comes to saying how they would change that. and they both want you to believe they'd watch every penny but don't want to elaborate on how tight government cash might be. the truth too is that money and migration are tightly linked together — the big parties don't want to cut off the stream of workers overnight. but politicians who don't pay enough attention to public concern about migration can sometimes pay a heavy price — repeating promises that aren't then kept can rust away the public�*s trust. in a second i'm joining up with paddy — there's the wave, for sunday's mewscast, on bbc sounds later — or you can catch up with anything on iplayer later on. and if you just like watching the telly i'll see you here next week, same time, same place. goodbye.

live from london, this is bbc news. after an agonising delay, late night hostage and prisoner exchanges takes place between israel and hamas. a second group of hostages leave hamas captivity — 13 israelis and four thai nationals are freed. celebrations in the west bank as 39 more palestinians were released from israeli prisons — some have been in detention for years. this is the scene in gaza, where a temporary truce seems to be holding — a further exchange of hostages and prisoners are expected today.

in other news, rescue work to save 41 workers trapped in a tunnel in india is delayed because of a damage to the rescue machinery. hello, i'm lewis vaughan—jones. hamas has freed another 13 israelis who were taken hostage during the attacks on october 7th. they are all women, teenagers and young children. four thai nationals were also released. 39 palestinians have been freed from israeli jails in return. the handover was delayed for hours by a dispute over whether israel was abiding by the terms of the deal reached with hamas. among the hostages released was the irish—israeli girl, emily hand, who's nine years old. emily was initially thought to have been among those killed

in the attack on kibbutz be eri.