one, we had to have sufficient end. one, we had to have sufficient cash and liquidity to ensure that we could continue to trade as a going concern, and the second was we had to have reasonable and achievable financial trading numbers that we were predicting we would deliver through 2023. we were put under enormous pressure by our then auditors to prove both of those things, that we would have adequate cash and that our numbers were reasonable and achievable. the adequate cash, as you have seen because it was on record, was coming from either secured lending against our distribution centre in worksop as it transpired at the sale and lease back of worksop. and secondly through an abl asset based lending which we secured ultimately against

many things, but principally against stock and intellectual property but there were other things within that. on the one dynamically needed to prove to our auditors we had sufficient cash. the second side of it was we had to prove we had reasonable and achievable trading numbers that we were likely to hit as we went through the financial year which is 23. we ran more sensitised versions of those numbers and even i can remember to do a worse case scenario and then an even worse case scenario and then an even worse case scenario and then an even worse case scenario. hate worse case scenario and then an even worse case scenario.— worse case scenario. we are up auainst worse case scenario. we are up against time _ worse case scenario. we are up against time to _ worse case scenario. we are up against time to some _ worse case scenario. we are up against time to some degree. l against time to some degree. according to the sunday times, wilko was advised _ according to the sunday times, wilko was advised in 2022 by restructuring advisers _ was advised in 2022 by restructuring advisers to— was advised in 2022 by restructuring advisers to use a company voluntary arrangement to close some stores and renegotiate —

arrangement to close some stores and renegotiate rents and others. how did you _ renegotiate rents and others. how did you respond to that advice? my did you respond to that advice? iji understanding, did you respond to that advice? m understanding, because did you respond to that advice? m1: understanding, because i was not directly involved, in early... as a directly involved, in early... as a director- -- _ directly involved, in early... as a director... it _ directly involved, in early... as a director... it was _ directly involved, in early... as a director... it was reported - directly involved, in early... as a director... it was reported to - directly involved, in early... as a director... it was reported to me i directly involved, in early... as a i director... it was reported to me at holding on — director... it was reported to me at holding on board, _ director. .. it was reported to me at holding on board, absolutely- director... it was reported to me at holding on board, absolutely right. | holding on board, absolutely right. my holding on board, absolutely right. my understanding is that early 2022, discussions took place about whether a creditors voluntary arrangement was an appropriate route for wilko and at that time and understand that my ceo and property director were told it was not because our financial position was not sufficiently bad to do a cva. by september i believe it was of 2022, we had a long report into the holding board and within that non—report, as part of the contingency planning, if trading continued to deteriorate, a cva was discussed. it was not proposed as a

do it right now scenario, it was proposed that if trading continued, it was a contingency plan. but proposed that if trading continued, it was a contingency plan.- it was a contingency plan. but you sa it it was a contingency plan. but you say it wasn't _ it was a contingency plan. but you say it wasn't a _ it was a contingency plan. but you say it wasn't a do _ it was a contingency plan. but you say it wasn't a do it _ it was a contingency plan. but you say it wasn't a do it right - it was a contingency plan. but you say it wasn't a do it right now. - say it wasn't a do it right now. wasn't — say it wasn't a do it right now. wasn't it— say it wasn't a do it right now. wasn't it the advice to do it right now? _ wasn't it the advice to do it right now? ., . , ., wasn't it the advice to do it right now? ., ., , ., ., , now? no, it was not. in november they repeated _ now? no, it was not. in november they repeated the _ now? no, it was not. in november they repeated the advice _ now? no, it was not. in november they repeated the advice around i now? no, it was not. in november they repeated the advice around a | they repeated the advice around a cva again as a contingency for if trading continued to decline. and the consensus was we did a step plan. step number one was to do the secured lending for the sale. step number two was to do the abl. step number two was to do the abl. step number three to be planned in the first quarter of 2023 was to consider doing a cva with the suggestion that we would have an implementation date of april 2023, because that would release the most cash onto the balance sheet. my understanding is you get a better business rate position if we had

done it at the beginning of, but i done it at the beginning of, but i do not know the detail, but that is my understanding, which is what we did. during the first quarter of 2023, we did the planning for a cva, we did it at that point with pricewaterhousecoopers. there was a subtle difference in the original report that the cva would be largely a pensions scheme voted cva, because it had the pension deficit as a very high figure in its report. as it transpired, that was not accurate and we were doing predominantly a landlord voted cva. that meant we had to do a much tighter cost reduction programme in order to try to secure the votes of the landlords in favour of that cva and that took us over the april date in doing that cost cutting exercise before we could put the cva position before

the landlords. did we listen to the advice and did we follow it? yes, we listened to the advice. yes, we followed it.— listened to the advice. yes, we followed it. ~ ., , ., followed it. ok. well, that is not everybodv's _ followed it. ok. well, that is not everybody's interpretation - followed it. ok. well, that is not everybody's interpretation of - followed it. ok. well, that is not i everybody's interpretation of those events _ everybody's interpretation of those events i_ everybody's interpretation of those events. i will put to you, the sunday— events. i will put to you, the sunday times quoted a restructuring source _ sunday times quoted a restructuring source as— sunday times quoted a restructuring source as saying, wilko failed due to naiveiv. — source as saying, wilko failed due to naivety, incompetence, a failure to naivety, incompetence, a failure to listen— to naivety, incompetence, a failure to listen to — to naivety, incompetence, a failure to listen to people who have done these _ to listen to people who have done these things for a long time and 'ust these things for a long time and just stubbornness, resulting in a complete — just stubbornness, resulting in a complete car crash and the loss of a third generation business which could _ third generation business which could have been saved. mrjackson, how accurate is that? if could have been saved. mrjackson, how accurate is that?— how accurate is that? if that is referring specifically _ how accurate is that? if that is referring specifically to - how accurate is that? if that is referring specifically to the - how accurate is that? if that is l referring specifically to the (va, referring specifically to the cva, then it's inaccurate. it’s

referring specifically to the (va, then it's inaccurate. it's referring to the failure _ then it's inaccurate. it's referring to the failure of— then it's inaccurate. it's referring to the failure of the _ then it's inaccurate. it's referring to the failure of the business. i l to the failure of the business. cannot to the failure of the business. i cannot comment. i was appointed at christmas 2022 and i have to say most of my time was spent looking forward on what needed to be done and at what pace. you forward on what needed to be done and at what pace.— and at what pace. you had a look back to understand _ and at what pace. you had a look back to understand what - and at what pace. you had a look back to understand what had - and at what pace. you had a look| back to understand what had gone wrong, _ back to understand what had gone wrong, so — back to understand what had gone wrong, so how accurate is that characterisation?— wrong, so how accurate is that characterisation? you have heard different conjecture _ characterisation? you have heard different conjecture this - characterisation? you have heard different conjecture this morning| different conjecture this morning and i will call it conjecture. the reality is injanuary and i will call it conjecture. the reality is in january 2021, and i will call it conjecture. the reality is injanuary 2021, the balance sheet of the business was pretty well placed. well placed. despite views on discounting versus value retail in the right or wrong place on the high street. all of those are issues and they all impacted the business. but there was over 100 million of cash, over 100 million of reserves. in my view, the

biggest contributory factors to the cash outflow were of course increased competition, but global supply chain issues, cost increases, failing to act on cost reduction, but most importantly, i believe that with hindsight i would not have furloughed, i would with hindsight i would not have furloughed, iwould not with hindsight i would not have furloughed, i would not have stayed open, i would furloughed, i would not have stayed open, iwould have furloughed, i would not have stayed open, i would have taken advantage, protected the business on the furlough scheme and rents like 90% of other retailers. there was a warehouse management system implementation that was nothing short of a disaster that led to a shortage of availability in store stock. project optimist is a wider project that included spending £60

million on bringing warehouses up to scratch, so you can quickly see covid impacted, further living, yes, stayed open and trading but cash was going out the door. the dc sale and lease back became necessary as did the abl. the abl gave us a window. when i came in, a sufficient window, it required a lot of things to be done quickly. we took 90 million of costs out on an annualised basis. we planned very detailed a cva with cbre who are the same people used. there wasn't a change in strategy around cva fundamentally. 90 million of costs out of the structure. then

35 to 40 of costs out of the structure. then 35 to a0 through the cva, but most importantly we had to get suppliers back on board. a large number of them had restricting credit. if you read the press, most of this was driven, most of the cell shortfall was driven by poor availability. it's poor availability because we didn't have the cash to pay the suppliers. going for the abl, taking all of the suppliers through the cost production programme, showing the window, showing that there was a planned cva, it still required funding post cva. actually that turnaround plan could have been delivered. actually the biggest single factor in it not being delivered was news of the cva leaking into the press, which made suppliers who we had got back on board very nervous again and availability started to fall and

thenit availability started to fall and then it became a vicious circle. mr malkinson, do you recognise that characterisation and in addition, some _ characterisation and in addition, some informed observers felt that with the _ some informed observers felt that with the cost of living crisis and shoppers— with the cost of living crisis and shoppers looking for bargains, they should _ shoppers looking for bargains, they should have been wilko's time to shine _ should have been wilko's time to shine as — should have been wilko's time to shine as it's been described. do you recognise _ shine as it's been described. do you recognise that india characterisation of the business? | characterisation of the business? recognise characterisation of the business? i recognise mark's characterisation... your failure to listen to people who had done _ your failure to listen to people who had done these things for other peopiem — had done these things for other people... the charge put to you. | people... the charge put to you. don't people... the charge put to you. i don't recognise not listening, no i don't recognise not listening, no i do recognise the devastation of losing a third generation business. i do believe wilko could have been saved but it was not. mrs wilkinson,

i am saved but it was not. mrs wilkinson, i am baffled — saved but it was not. mrs wilkinson, i am baffled because _ saved but it was not. mrs wilkinson, i am baffled because you _ saved but it was not. mrs wilkinson, i am baffled because you have - saved but it was not. mrs wilkinson, | i am baffled because you have talked about _ i am baffled because you have talked about 2022 a lot and i accept there were _ about 2022 a lot and i accept there were economic impacts. but we heard from others _ were economic impacts. but we heard from others pointed out in the first panel— from others pointed out in the first panel that — from others pointed out in the first panel that in the audit accounts of 2018-19, — panel that in the audit accounts of 2018-19, the last panel that in the audit accounts of 2018—19, the last sentence of the going _ 2018—19, the last sentence of the going concern section, the financial viability— going concern section, the financial viability of — going concern section, the financial viability of the business was in question _ viability of the business was in question. why was that not acted upon _ question. why was that not acted upon and — question. why was that not acted upon and why all the blame is being put on _ upon and why all the blame is being put on 2022? i feel a sleight of hand _ put on 2022? i feel a sleight of hand here _ put on 2022? i feel a sleight of hand here. it is easy to point fingers — hand here. it is easy to point fingers at _ hand here. it is easy to point fingers at the government, is easy to talk— fingers at the government, is easy to talk about covid and the cost of living, _ to talk about covid and the cost of living, the — to talk about covid and the cost of living, the reality is you had the warning — living, the reality is you had the warning signs. was it a simply a case _ warning signs. was it a simply a case of— warning signs. was it a simply a case of you _ warning signs. was it a simply a case of you not reading the audit report? — case of you not reading the audit report? |— case of you not reading the audit re ort? ., �* case of you not reading the audit reort? ., �* ~ ., case of you not reading the audit reort? ., �* ,, ., ., ., ., , report? i don't know how to answer that question- _ report? i don't know how to answer that question. we _ report? i don't know how to answer that question. we did _ report? i don't know how to answer that question. we did read - report? i don't know how to answer that question. we did read the - report? i don't know how to answer| that question. we did read the audit report. we were taken through the report. we were taken through the report by our auditors. we always

scrutinise it. it is true that their trading position of wilko in terms of turnover was weakening over the years. i think we always scrutinised and took steps to address everything we could. we had relatively, not as strong trading performance, but relatively strong trading performance until we hit financial year 2022. performance until we hit financial year2022. in performance until we hit financial year 2022. in 2021 we were still taking 1.36 billion turnover, we have net assets of118.1i taking 1.36 billion turnover, we have net assets of 118.4 million. we are still in a relatively good position by the end of 2021, it's during 2022 that that position declines. , ., declines. the truth is though the warning signs — declines. the truth is though the warning signs were _ declines. the truth is though the warning signs were written - declines. the truth is though the warning signs were written in - declines. the truth is though the i warning signs were written in 2018 and action— warning signs were written in 2018 and action wasn't taken until 2022. a four-year— and action wasn't taken until 2022. a four—year period of inaction in essence — a four—year period of inaction in

essence. mr mcdonald earlier was raising _ essence. mr mcdonald earlier was raising the — essence. mr mcdonald earlier was raising the fact that you were warned — raising the fact that you were warned about may be looking at some of the _ warned about may be looking at some of the high _ warned about may be looking at some of the high street shops and renegotiating leases and you said that the _ renegotiating leases and you said that the advice wasn't told to do it now, _ that the advice wasn't told to do it now. it _ that the advice wasn't told to do it now. it was — that the advice wasn't told to do it now, it wasjust that the advice wasn't told to do it now, it was just given to you. when my partner— now, it was just given to you. when my partner tells me to put the rubbish — my partner tells me to put the rubbish out and i'd not get the first— rubbish out and i'd not get the first time _ rubbish out and i'd not get the first time and then she tells me to put it— first time and then she tells me to put it out— first time and then she tells me to put it out the second time, that nreans— put it out the second time, that means do— put it out the second time, that means do it now. i'm a bit confused when _ means do it now. i'm a bit confused when you _ means do it now. i'm a bit confused when you are — means do it now. i'm a bit confused when you are given the advice of twice _ when you are given the advice of twice that — when you are given the advice of twice that that is not being taken as a bit— twice that that is not being taken as a bit of— twice that that is not being taken as a bit of a hint that you need to do something. i�*m as a bit of a hint that you need to do something-— do something. i'm sorry if i gave ou the do something. i'm sorry if i gave you the impression _ do something. i'm sorry if i gave you the impression we _ do something. i'm sorry if i gave you the impression we were - do something. i'm sorry if i gave you the impression we were not | do something. i'm sorry if i gave - you the impression we were not doing something. of course we were. that was an active stream of work for as long as i can remember in reducing our lease obligations and i would have to bring the relevant head in to enable you to have the detail. i'm sorry i thought you were referring to the more aggressive approach through the cva mechanic but yes we had been working for many

years to reduce our rent bill and to reduce the length of our leases and to get our stores into the right places. it is, it was an ongoing job of work. mr places. it is, it was an ongoing 'ob ofwork. ~ .~ . places. it is, it was an ongoing 'ob ofwork. ~ of work. mrjackson, was it your view that the _ of work. mrjackson, was it your view that the advice _ of work. mrjackson, was it your view that the advice was - of work. mrjackson, was it your - view that the advice was inaccurate? we had _ view that the advice was inaccurate? we had to— view that the advice was inaccurate? we had to separate _ view that the advice was inaccurate? we had to separate out _ view that the advice was inaccurate? we had to separate out was - view that the advice was inaccurate? we had to separate out was a - view that the advice was inaccurate? we had to separate out was a cva . we had to separate out was a cva inaccurate? no, a cva would have put business in a better position but it isn't an insolvency process. that requires funding on the other side otherwise you will not get through it. their analysis was incorrect. 75% of people who vote by value have to vote in favour for it to go through. their analysis of the voting had a pension scheme that could put it through on its own and

no other creditors mattered. the reality is that wasn't true and that all landlords needed to be taken through or suppliers did. the planning detail behind a successful cva was not the same as what was proposed. cva was not the same as what was --roosed. , ., ., ., proposed. does that mean that in our proposed. does that mean that in youriudgment — proposed. does that mean that in youriudgment you _ proposed. does that mean that in yourjudgment you couldn't - proposed. does that mean that in yourjudgment you couldn't be - yourjudgment you couldn't be implemented? it yourjudgment you couldn't be implemented?— yourjudgment you couldn't be imlemented? _, ., , implemented? it could have been implemented — implemented? it could have been implemented. but _ implemented? it could have been implemented. but it _ implemented? it could have been implemented. but it couldn't - implemented? it could have been| implemented. but it couldn't have been implemented until you have got funding and you are insolvent. it could have been prevented when they recommended it which was the back end of 2022. it couldn't have been done at the time. it was a deferred recommendation. it wasn't a do it now, absolutely not. that'sjust impossible. you have to be insolvent to do a cva. the business was not insolvent. it had a declining cash basis, it had freehold property of

£80 million in value, it wouldn't have been possible until all of those plans had been worked through. was there a wave though to pursue that reform? | was there a wave though to pursue that reform?— that reform? i believe so. again, all of this is _ that reform? i believe so. again, all of this is with _ that reform? i believe so. again, all of this is with hindsight. - that reform? i believe so. again, all of this is with hindsight. we i all of this is with hindsight. we had a window, if we could have got supplies on board, we then went to, with the detailed cva plans, we went to at least 20 potential investors, both private equity and debt, and actually looking at the for sale of the business. you had to get funding secured throughout the cva process because suppliers will say, hang on, am i going to get paid only when i know we have got through this? and then you need funding the other side. that funding required a detailed plan and we had funding agreed the other side, but the

funding upfront still required, we had an ab agreed with philco. they didn't want to be in the long term so we had to get the two parties to work together. as time ran on, the lack of availability of stock in store made the position worse but there was definitely a window where there was definitely a window where the turnaround could have been done. and actually, the difference in funding that we could raise and the funding that we could raise and the funding that we could raise and the funding that was required is quite a bit less and the cost to the taxpayer. bit less and the cost to the taxpaver-— bit less and the cost to the taxa er. . , ., , taxpayer. why was that opportunity not seized if— taxpayer. why was that opportunity not seized if there _ taxpayer. why was that opportunity not seized if there was _ taxpayer. why was that opportunity not seized if there was a _ taxpayer. why was that opportunity not seized if there was a window i taxpayer. why was that opportunity not seized if there was a window of| not seized if there was a window of opportunity?— not seized if there was a window of ouortuni ?�* , �* opportunity? because we couldn't get the fund to back _ opportunity? because we couldn't get the fund to back it. _ opportunity? because we couldn't get the fund to back it. so _ opportunity? because we couldn't get the fund to back it. so it _ opportunity? because we couldn't get the fund to back it. so it was - opportunity? because we couldn't get the fund to back it. so it was an - the fund to back it. so it was an external constraint _ the fund to back it. so it was an external constraint rather - the fund to back it. so it was an external constraint rather than l the fund to back it. so it was an | external constraint rather than a decision— external constraint rather than a decision of— external constraint rather than a decision of the business? absolutely. it was pursued. i knocked down an awful lot of doors more than once and we had interested parties right up to the beginning of

august who are really keen to save the business, and i thought... what the business, and i thought... what was stopping _ the business, and i thought... what was stopping these _ the business, and i thought... what was stopping these creditors? ultimately the amount of secured security in the balance sheet was falling every day, so the amount of people who were secured lenders were prepared to lend was also reducing. the climate that we are in, the uk economic climate, particularly for retail with future cost increases, the investment community were not overly keen, so i could get about 15 million unsecured and i could get 40 to 45 of secured lending, bringing a total of around 60 million, 65 million. ., , ., ,

million. you see our problem. our roblem million. you see our problem. our problem is — million. you see our problem. our problem is that _ million. you see our problem. our problem is that in _ million. you see our problem. our problem is that in 2021, _ million. you see our problem. our problem is that in 2021, you've - million. you see our problem. our| problem is that in 2021, you've got 180 million— problem is that in 2021, you've got 180 million in cash on the balance sheet _ 180 million in cash on the balance sheet. we've got a deterioration in trading _ sheet. we've got a deterioration in trading conditions but that affects everv _ trading conditions but that affects every business on the high street. 0ther— every business on the high street. other players seemed to have been able to— other players seemed to have been able to weather the storm and you did not _ able to weather the storm and you did not so — able to weather the storm and you did not. so we are trying to understand why you didn't when others _ understand why you didn't when others did — understand why you didn't when others did when you started with such— others did when you started with such a _ others did when you started with such a strong cash position. i such a strong cash position. wasn't in such a strong cash position. i wasn't in the midst of decision making but if you can imagine paying rents, which i think was £90 million a year, not further lowering people and spending 60 million on two warehouses, the impact of credit insurance being pulled, accelerating cash out to suppliers, that can happen quite quickly.- cash out to suppliers, that can happen quite quickly. those are all examles happen quite quickly. those are all examples of _ happen quite quickly. those are all examples of management - happen quite quickly. those are all examples of management failure. | happen quite quickly. those are all| examples of management failure. i examples of management failure. wasn't examples of management failure. i wasn't there at the time so i can't

comment on the decisions and reasons why they were made. you comment on the decisions and reasons why they were made.— why they were made. you were there at the time. — why they were made. you were there at the time. so _ why they were made. you were there at the time, so why _ why they were made. you were there at the time, so why were _ why they were made. you were there at the time, so why were those - at the time, so why were those decisions — at the time, so why were those decisions taken?— at the time, so why were those decisions taken? there were many decisions taken? there were many decisions that _ decisions taken? there were many decisions that mark _ decisions taken? there were many decisions that mark talked - decisions taken? there were many decisions that mark talked about. | decisions that mark talked about. let's go through the furlough, the failure _ let's go through the furlough, the failure of— let's go through the furlough, the failure of project optimist, those two. failure of pro'ect optimist, those two. ~ failure of pro'ect optimist, those two. . . , ., ., failure of pro'ect optimist, those two. . .,., ., , two. we took the decision to stay 0 en. two. we took the decision to stay open- wilko _ two. we took the decision to stay open. wilko has _ two. we took the decision to stay open. wilko has stayed _ two. we took the decision to stay open. wilko has stayed open - open. wilko has stayed open throughout world war ii, it always stayed open when challenges happen. we were an essential retailer, we debated it as great length whether we should stay open and whether the decision was to stay open, to not follow our team members, that is the decision we took. bud follow our team members, that is the decision we took.— decision we took. and the warehouse ro'ect? decision we took. and the warehouse project? we — decision we took. and the warehouse project? we have _ decision we took. and the warehouse project? we have had _ decision we took. and the warehouse project? we have had two _ decision we took. and the warehouse l project? we have had two warehouses, one is in wales. _ project? we have had two warehouses, one is in wales, one _ project? we have had two warehouses, one is in wales, one is _ project? we have had two warehouses, one is in wales, one is in _ project? we have had two warehouses,

one is in wales, one is in worksop. - one is in wales, one is in worksop. the warehouse project, there were two microforms, there was warehouse management systems and there was a relay of the racking and the layout of both distribution centres. that was taken many years ago, the decision to implement and then was a phased programme that started with the smaller of the two distribution centres. so it was an implementation of warehouse management system and relay and racking and then that moved onto distribution centre number one. clearly it was done with the intention to improve at the processes in our warehouse. we had out of date machinery, it was very manual, we were not as efficient and a decision was taken by the board collectively as a capital investment to do that work. 50. collectively as a capital investment to do that work.— collectively as a capital investment to do that work. so, what advice did ou live to do that work. so, what advice did you give to — to do that work. so, what advice did you give to the _ to do that work. so, what advice did

you give to the business _ to do that work. so, what advice did you give to the business about - to do that work. so, what advice did you give to the business about the l you give to the business about the cva advice?— cva advice? thank you to the committee — cva advice? thank you to the committee for _ cva advice? thank you to the committee for inviting - cva advice? thank you to the committee for inviting us - cva advice? thank you to the | committee for inviting us here today — committee for inviting us here toda . ., �* committee for inviting us here today-_ to i committee for inviting us here | today._ to talk committee for inviting us here - today._ to talk about today. you're welcome. to talk about our role as — today. you're welcome. to talk about our role as auditors _ today. you're welcome. to talk about our role as auditors at _ today. you're welcome. to talk about our role as auditors at wilko. - today. you're welcome. to talk about our role as auditors at wilko. we - our role as auditors at wilko. we have _ our role as auditors at wilko. we have listened _ our role as auditors at wilko. we have listened carefully— our role as auditors at wilko. we have listened carefully to - our role as auditors at wilko. we have listened carefully to the - our role as auditors at wilko. we | have listened carefully to the last panel— have listened carefully to the last panel and — have listened carefully to the last panel and welcome _ have listened carefully to the last panel and welcome the _ have listened carefully to the last i panel and welcome the opportunity have listened carefully to the last - panel and welcome the opportunity to offer some _ panel and welcome the opportunity to offer some corrections— panel and welcome the opportunity to offer some corrections and _ panel and welcome the opportunity to offer some corrections and answer- offer some corrections and answer your questions _ offer some corrections and answer your questions. turning _ offer some corrections and answer your questions. turning to - offer some corrections and answer your questions. turning to your. your questions. turning to your specific— your questions. turning to your specific question, _ your questions. turning to your specific question, it _ your questions. turning to your specific question, it is - your questions. turning to your specific question, it is not - your questions. turning to your specific question, it is not our. specific question, it is not our role _ specific question, it is not our role to— specific question, it is not our role to offer— specific question, it is not our role to offer advice _ specific question, it is not our role to offer advice to - specific question, it is not our role to offer advice to the - specific question, it is not our- role to offer advice to the company. the company — role to offer advice to the company. the company will— role to offer advice to the company. the company will make _ role to offer advice to the company. i the company will make management decisions. _ the company will make management decisions. they— the company will make management decisions, they are _ the company will make management decisions, they are involved - the company will make management decisions, they are involved in- the company will make management decisions, they are involved in the i decisions, they are involved in the day-to-day— decisions, they are involved in the day—to—day running _ decisions, they are involved in the day—to—day running of— decisions, they are involved in the day—to—day running of the - decisions, they are involved in the i day—to—day running of the business. our role _ day—to—day running of the business. our role as— day—to—day running of the business. our role as auditors _ day—to—day running of the business. our role as auditors is _ day—to—day running of the business. our role as auditors is to _ day—to—day running of the business. our role as auditors is to assess - our role as auditors is to assess the status— our role as auditors is to assess the status of— our role as auditors is to assess the status of the _ our role as auditors is to assess the status of the business, - our role as auditors is to assess the status of the business, the. the status of the business, the position— the status of the business, the position of— the status of the business, the position of the _ the status of the business, the position of the business - the status of the business, the position of the business and i the status of the business, the position of the business and to the status of the business, the - position of the business and to come up position of the business and to come up with— position of the business and to come up with an _ position of the business and to come up with an independent _ position of the business and to come up with an independent view, - position of the business and to come up with an independent view, an - up with an independent view, an independent _ up with an independent view, an independent opinion— up with an independent view, an independent opinion as - up with an independent view, an independent opinion as to - up with an independent view, an i independent opinion as to whether the accounts — independent opinion as to whether the accounts as _ independent opinion as to whether the accounts as presented - independent opinion as to whether the accounts as presented by - the accounts as presented by management— the accounts as presented by management and _ the accounts as presented by management and signed - the accounts as presented by management and signed offi the accounts as presented by i management and signed off by the accounts as presented by - management and signed off by the directors— management and signed off by the directors are — management and signed off by the directors are indeed _ management and signed off by the directors are indeed true _ management and signed off by the directors are indeed true and - directors are indeed true and provide — directors are indeed true and provide the _ directors are indeed true and provide the users _ directors are indeed true and provide the users with - directors are indeed true and provide the users with an - provide the users with an appropriate _ provide the users with an appropriate view- provide the users with an appropriate view in - provide the users with an| appropriate view in terms provide the users with an i appropriate view in terms of provide the users with an - appropriate view in terms of the position— appropriate view in terms of the position the _ appropriate view in terms of the position the company— appropriate view in terms of the position the company is - appropriate view in terms of the position the company is in. - appropriate view in terms of the position the company is in. it. appropriate view in terms of the position the company is in. at no state did

position the company is in. at no stage did you _ position the company is in. at no stage did you give _ position the company is in. at no stage did you give advice - position the company is in. stage did you give advice about whether— stage did you give advice about whether to pursue the kinds of advice — whether to pursue the kinds of advice in — whether to pursue the kinds of advice in the proposal? it wasn't appropriate _ advice in the proposal? it wasn't appropriate for _ advice in the proposal? it wasn't appropriate for us _ advice in the proposal? it wasn't appropriate for us to _ advice in the proposal? it wasn't appropriate for us to do - advice in the proposal? it wasn't appropriate for us to do that - advice in the proposal? it wasn't appropriate for us to do that in l advice in the proposal? it wasn't i appropriate for us to do that in the role _ appropriate for us to do that in the role this — appropriate for us to do that in the role this very— appropriate for us to do that in the role. this very important _ appropriate for us to do that in the role. this very important we - appropriate for us to do that in the role. this very important we are i role. this very important we are independent _ role. this very important we are independent. [5 _ role. this very important we are independent-— role. this very important we are indeendent. , ., ., , independent. is that a no? did you live independent. is that a no? did you give advice — independent. is that a no? did you give advice on _ independent. is that a no? did you give advice on whether— independent. is that a no? did you give advice on whether to - independent. is that a no? did you give advice on whether to pursue i independent. is that a no? did you i give advice on whether to pursue the proposal. _ give advice on whether to pursue the proposal, yes or no no, it wasn't a role _ proposal, yes or no no, it wasn't a role to— proposal, yes or no no, it wasn't a role to do— proposal, yes or no no, it wasn't a role to do so _ proposal, yes or no no, it wasn't a role to do so. it proposal, yes or no no, it wasn't a role to do so-_ proposal, yes or no no, it wasn't a role to do so._ what - role to do so. it is a no. what advice did _ role to do so. it is a no. what advice did you _ role to do so. it is a no. what advice did you give _ role to do so. it is a no. what advice did you give the - role to do so. it is a no. what i advice did you give the business about— advice did you give the business about the — advice did you give the business about the steps it might need to take in— about the steps it might need to take in orderto about the steps it might need to take in order to remain a going concern? — take in order to remain a going concern? for example, around the cell of— concern? for example, around the cell of the — concern? for example, around the cell of the warehouse? it�*s concern? for example, around the cell of the warehouse?— cell of the warehouse? it's not our osition cell of the warehouse? it's not our position as — cell of the warehouse? it's not our position as auditors _ cell of the warehouse? it's not our position as auditors to _ cell of the warehouse? it's not our position as auditors to offer - cell of the warehouse? it's not our position as auditors to offer advice to the _ position as auditors to offer advice to the business. _ position as auditors to offer advice to the business. it _ position as auditors to offer advice to the business. it would - position as auditors to offer advice to the business. it would be - position as auditors to offer advice to the business. it would be highly inappropriate _ to the business. it would be highly inappropriate for _ to the business. it would be highly inappropriate for us _ to the business. it would be highly inappropriate for us to _ to the business. it would be highly inappropriate for us to do - to the business. it would be highly inappropriate for us to do so. - to the business. it would be highly inappropriate for us to do so. we i inappropriate for us to do so. we are an _ inappropriate for us to do so. we are an independent _ inappropriate for us to do so. we are an independent body- inappropriate for us to do so. we are an independent body that- are an independent body that assesses— are an independent body that assesses the _ are an independent body that assesses the decision - are an independent body that assesses the decision that. assesses the decision that management— assesses the decision that management make - assesses the decision that management make in - assesses the decision that i management make in terms assesses the decision that - management make in terms of how assesses the decision that _ management make in terms of how they feed themselves — management make in terms of how they feed themselves through _ management make in terms of how they feed themselves through into _ management make in terms of how they feed themselves through into the - feed themselves through into the accounts — feed themselves through into the accounts to— feed themselves through into the accounts to be _ feed themselves through into the accounts to be sure _ feed themselves through into the accounts to be sure they- feed themselves through into the accounts to be sure they are - feed themselves through into the| accounts to be sure they are true. in accounts to be sure they are true. in terms— accounts to be sure they are true. in terms of— accounts to be sure they are true. in terms of the _ accounts to be sure they are true. in terms of the assessment - accounts to be sure they are true. in terms of the assessment that i accounts to be sure they are true. i in terms of the assessment that we went through — in terms of the assessment that we went through from _ in terms of the assessment that we went through from a _ in terms of the assessment that we went through from a going - in terms of the assessment that we went through from a going concernl went through from a going concern perspective. — went through from a going concern perspective. it's— went through from a going concern perspective, it's important- went through from a going concern perspective, it's important for- went through from a going concern perspective, it's important for thel perspective, it's important for the committee — perspective, it's important for the

committee to _ perspective, it's important for the committee to understand - perspective, it's important for the committee to understand and - committee to understand and hopefuiiy_ committee to understand and hopefully it's _ committee to understand and hopefully it's helpful- committee to understand and hopefully it's helpful for- committee to understand and hopefully it's helpful for us i committee to understand and hopefully it's helpful for us to jump— hopefully it's helpful for us to jump to — hopefully it's helpful for us to jump to what _ hopefully it's helpful for us to jump to what our _ hopefully it's helpful for us to jump to what our opinion - hopefully it's helpful for us to i jump to what our opinion actually said in— jump to what our opinion actually said in terms— jump to what our opinion actually said in terms of— jump to what our opinion actually said in terms of our— jump to what our opinion actually said in terms of our view, - jump to what our opinion actually said in terms of our view, in- jump to what our opinion actually. said in terms of our view, in terms of the _ said in terms of our view, in terms of the position— said in terms of our view, in terms of the position of— said in terms of our view, in terms of the position of the _ said in terms of our view, in terms of the position of the business. if. of the position of the business. if you wouldn't _ of the position of the business. if you wouldn't mind _ of the position of the business. if you wouldn't mind just _ of the position of the business. if you wouldn't mind just for- of the position of the business. if you wouldn't mind just for two i you wouldn't mind just for two minutes— you wouldn't mind just for two minutes for— you wouldn't mind just for two minutes for me _ you wouldn't mind just for two minutes for me to _ you wouldn't mind just for two minutes for me to just - you wouldn't mind just for two minutes for me to just read i you wouldn't mind just for twol minutes for me tojust read out you wouldn't mind just for two - minutes for me to just read out the very specificm _ minutes for me to just read out the very specificm it _ minutes for me to just read out the very specific... it really _ minutes for me to just read out the very specific... it really is - minutes for me to just read out the very specific... it really is quite - very specific... it really is quite important — very specific... it really is quite important for _ very specific... it really is quite important for the _ very specific... it really is quite important for the whole - very specific... it really is quite - important for the whole committee to understand _ important for the whole committee to understand the — important for the whole committee to understand the specific— important for the whole committee to understand the specific words - important for the whole committee to understand the specific words that i understand the specific words that we said _ understand the specific words that we said in— understand the specific words that we said in our— understand the specific words that we said in our opinion, _ understand the specific words that we said in our opinion, because i understand the specific words that we said in our opinion, because iti we said in our opinion, because it does _ we said in our opinion, because it does frame — we said in our opinion, because it does frame the _ we said in our opinion, because it does frame the rest _ we said in our opinion, because it does frame the rest of _ we said in our opinion, because it does frame the rest of the - does frame the rest of the discussion. _ does frame the rest of the discussion. in— does frame the rest of the discussion. in our- does frame the rest of the j discussion. in our opinion, does frame the rest of the i discussion. in our opinion, it does frame the rest of the - discussion. in our opinion, it says, very— discussion. in our opinion, it says, very clearly. — discussion. in our opinion, it says, very clearly. under— discussion. in our opinion, it says, very clearly, under the _ discussion. in our opinion, it says, very clearly, under the heading i discussion. in our opinion, it says, very clearly, under the heading of| very clearly, under the heading of material— very clearly, under the heading of material uncertainty _ very clearly, under the heading of material uncertainty related - very clearly, under the heading of material uncertainty related to i material uncertainty related to going — material uncertainty related to going concern. _ material uncertainty related to going concern, at— material uncertainty related to going concern, at the - material uncertainty related to going concern, at the date - material uncertainty related to going concern, at the date of. going concern, at the date of approval— going concern, at the date of approval of— going concern, at the date of approval of the _ going concern, at the date of approval of the statements, i going concern, at the date of. approval of the statements, the group _ approval of the statements, the group had — approval of the statements, the group had sufficient _ approval of the statements, the group had sufficient committedl group had sufficient committed financing — group had sufficient committed financing in— group had sufficient committed financing in place _ group had sufficient committed financing in place to _ group had sufficient committed financing in place to withstand i group had sufficient committedl financing in place to withstand a severe _ financing in place to withstand a severe but— financing in place to withstand a severe but plausible _ financing in place to withstand a severe but plausible downturn. financing in place to withstand a | severe but plausible downturn in conditions — severe but plausible downturn in conditions. sorry, _ severe but plausible downturn in conditions. sorry, a _ severe but plausible downturn in conditions. sorry, a severe - severe but plausible downturn in conditions. sorry, a severe but. conditions. sorry, a severe but plausible — conditions. sorry, a severe but plausible downturn _ conditions. sorry, a severe but plausible downturn in - conditions. sorry, a severe but plausible downturn in trainingl plausible downturn in training activity— plausible downturn in training activity through— plausible downturn in training activity through the _ plausible downturn in training activity through the going - plausible downturn in training - activity through the going concern period _ activity through the going concern period of— activity through the going concern period ofjanuary_ activity through the going concern period ofjanuary 2024. _ activity through the going concern period ofjanuary 2024. these - activity through the going concern i period ofjanuary 2024. these events and conditions — period ofjanuary 2024. these events and conditions indicate _ period ofjanuary 2024. these events and conditions indicate that - period ofjanuary 2024. these events and conditions indicate that a - and conditions indicate that a material— and conditions indicate that a material uncertainty- and conditions indicate that a material uncertainty exists i

and conditions indicate that a i material uncertainty exists that and conditions indicate that a - material uncertainty exists that may cast a _ material uncertainty exists that may cast a significant _ material uncertainty exists that may cast a significant doubt _ material uncertainty exists that may cast a significant doubt on _ material uncertainty exists that may cast a significant doubt on the - cast a significant doubt on the group — cast a significant doubt on the group and _ cast a significant doubt on the group and cos— cast a significant doubt on the group and co's ability- cast a significant doubt on the group and co's ability to - cast a significant doubt on the i group and co's ability to continue as a going — group and co's ability to continue as a going concern. _ group and co's ability to continue as a going concern. to _ group and co's ability to continue as a going concern. to the - group and co's ability to continue as a going concern. to the pointl as a going concern. to the point that— as a going concern. to the point that mr— as a going concern. to the point that mr shah— as a going concern. to the point that mr shah raised _ as a going concern. to the point that mr shah raised in— as a going concern. to the point that mr shah raised in the - as a going concern. to the point that mr shah raised in the first i that mr shah raised in the first panel. — that mr shah raised in the first panel. this _ that mr shah raised in the first panel, this was _ that mr shah raised in the first panel, this was not _ that mr shah raised in the first panel, this was not hidden - that mr shah raised in the first i panel, this was not hidden away. this was— panel, this was not hidden away. this was not— panel, this was not hidden away. this was not loose _ panel, this was not hidden away. this was not loose language. - panel, this was not hidden away. i this was not loose language. this was very. — this was not loose language. this was very. very— this was not loose language. this was very, very clear— this was not loose language. this was very, very clear language - this was not loose language. this was very, very clear language in i this was not loose language. this i was very, very clear language in our audit— was very, very clear language in our audit that _ was very, very clear language in our audit that we — was very, very clear language in our audit that we will _ was very, very clear language in our audit that we will leave _ was very, very clear language in our audit that we will leave this - audit that we will leave this parliamentary— audit that we will leave this parliamentary select- audit that we will leave this - parliamentary select committee hearing — parliamentary select committee hearing there _ parliamentary select committee hearing there.— parliamentary select committee hearing there. this is the former boss of wilko _ hearing there. this is the former boss of wilko being _ hearing there. this is the former boss of wilko being questioned i hearing there. this is the former. boss of wilko being questioned by mps about the company's collapsed backin mps about the company's collapsed back in august. we will return to the covid inquiry today which has been continuing with the housing secretary, michael gove, formerly the chancellor of the duchy of lancaster who has been giving evidence to the inquiry. we will hear a little later from the deputy, former deputy chief medical officer. let's remind ourselves of what michael gove has had to say a little bit earlier. ,., , michael gove has had to say a little bit earlier. _, , .. .,, , bit earlier. governments across the western world _ bit earlier. governments across the western world scrambled _ bit earlier. governments across the western world scrambled to - western world scrambled to appreciate quite how devastating the

impact of this virus would be on their health care systems, their economies and on vulnerable people within their societies. so of course the stakes and errors —— mistakes and errors were made by the uk government and some of their were we unique and specific but we also need to remember that governments everywhere made errors. this is not to excuse me from my responsibility for the mistakes that i've made, it is simply to say that when dealing with a crisis of this kind, one needs to appreciate that for democratic politicians everywhere, there were sudden and accumulating pressures which some dealt with better than others.— pressures which some dealt with better than others. let's bring in ellie price. _ better than others. let's bring in ellie price, our— better than others. let's bring in ellie price, our correspond - better than others. let's bring in ellie price, our correspond the i ellie price, our correspond the developments. michael gove also

apologising, he said sorry to all of those covid victims who enjoyed so much pain. those covid victims who en'oyed so much ain. . those covid victims who en'oyed so much ain. , ., those covid victims who en'oyed so much pain.— much pain. yes, quite a significant moment. much pain. yes, quite a significant moment- we _ much pain. yes, quite a significant moment. we were _ much pain. yes, quite a significant moment. we were talking - much pain. yes, quite a significant moment. we were talking inside i moment. we were talking inside trying to work out if that was the first serving cabinet minister we have heard, who obviously had a role during the pandemic, continue to apologise for the mistakes. he said some of them were made, he said at the end of the day politicians are humans but he did insist best efforts were made, decisions made were not taken lightly and that was the background to all of that. got that apology in rather early. i think the big issue for the big take home from the evidence we have had so far, quite interesting, michael gove's defence of matt hancock, the health secretary. he said he thought very highly of the then health secretary, that he felt he had, that matt hancock had used foresight and

wisdom in many of the decisions that he had taken. it flies in the face of a lot of the criticism we have heard both inside and outside the inquiry. many politicians, civil servants and scientists are criticising matt hancock. interesting we hear from criticising matt hancock. interesting we hearfrom michael gove defending matt hancock who of course is in post any more, don't think he is even a conservative mp any more, very much fallen from grace but defence of matt hancock, a significant moment. we grace but defence of matt hancock, a significant moment.— significant moment. we have also been hearing _ significant moment. we have also been hearing a — significant moment. we have also been hearing a line _ significant moment. we have also been hearing a line of _ significant moment. we have alsoj been hearing a line of questioning about the infection control, the lead counsel asking if it was apparent there was no debate about infection control and proposals for dealing with the management of dead bodies. . . . . . dealing with the management of dead bodies. , . . , . ., bodies. yes, again, this cutting to the real thrust _ bodies. yes, again, this cutting to the real thrust of _ bodies. yes, again, this cutting to the real thrust of what _ bodies. yes, again, this cutting to the real thrust of what this - bodies. yes, again, this cutting to the real thrust of what this inquiryj the real thrust of what this inquiry is about. we get all this what was going on in downing street, but

cutting to how the structure of government really works. for example, he said there were cobra meetings where matt hancock, the health secretary, which add them and would talk to other departments about what they were doing in preparation for this virus. it sounds very technical and it is and that's kind of the point, but he said for example, in those meetings, matt hancock was uncrossed questioned. very structural areas that this inquiry is really getting down to. journalists like us get very interested in the personalities and the things that were said behind—the—scenes about very much part of this inquiry is working out how the structure 's work and that was the line of questioning certainly taken in terms of what was done and how those decisions were being made. he was asked about the whatsapp messages between official that are featured heavily in the inquiry. we

defended some of those saying, heat of the moment, we were all very stressed and up against it. yeah, he did. he stressed and up against it. yeah, he did- he was — stressed and up against it. yeah, he did. he was asked _ stressed and up against it. yeah, he did. he was asked about _ stressed and up against it. yeah, he did. he was asked about those - did. he was asked about those personalities in downing street, as well, not least dominic cummings, the centre of many of those whatsapp messages that have dominated the newspaper headlines. my kilcoo footwork with dominic cummings years before all of this. he worked with him in the department for education and they work together through the brexit campaign and then afterwards. they were allies for years. he defended some of the personalities within downing street, the likes of dominic cummings but also boris johnson, talking about how they had strong personalities, and they needed strong personalities to get through the election they are just one and to get the brexit deal through, so it is not surprising

there were the strong