yes andl yes and i deliberately that correct? yes and i deliberately sou . ht that correct? yes and i deliberately sought information _ that correct? yes and i deliberately sought information out _ that correct? yes and i deliberately sought information out from - that correct? yes and i deliberately | sought information out from friends outside government, whose opinion i trust it because i wanted to make sure that i had alternative sources of information to test the views that were being expressed by government colleagues and others. evidence has been given to the inquiry— evidence has been given to the inquiry to— evidence has been given to the inquiry to the effect that there was over the _ inquiry to the effect that there was over the weekend of saturday the 14th and — over the weekend of saturday the 14th and 15th of march, a change in strategy _ 14th and 15th of march, a change in strategy. regardless of whether it was a _ strategy. regardless of whether it was a real— strategy. regardless of whether it was a real change in strategy or whether— was a real change in strategy or whether it — was a real change in strategy or whether it was a scaling up of an existing — whether it was a scaling up of an existing strategy, and whether or not there — existing strategy, and whether or not there is a distinct conceptual difference — not there is a distinct conceptual difference between mitigating the impact _ difference between mitigating the impact of a virus and suppressing it, impact of a virus and suppressing it. what— impact of a virus and suppressing it. what irr— impact of a virus and suppressing it, what in your view was the driver for that— it, what in your view was the driver for that change in approach, that

dawning — for that change in approach, that dawning realisation over that weekend? was it the information from sa-e weekend? was it the information from sage irr— weekend? was it the information from sage in relation to the workings, and the — sage in relation to the workings, and the work done by imperial college? — and the work done by imperial college? was it of the cmo? was it mr cummings? what was the push, where _ mr cummings? what was the push, where was — mr cummings? what was the push, where was it coming from? the fact that ou where was it coming from? the fact that you cite — where was it coming from? the fact that you cite so _ where was it coming from? the fact that you cite so many _ where was it coming from? the fact that you cite so many examples - where was it coming from? the fact i that you cite so many examples shows there was a convergence of thinking in different institutions from different individuals about the need to act. i was not aware of niall ferguson's work until after that weekend, in fact, i don't think it was shared publicly until after that weekend. a great deal of weight has been placed on professor ferguson's work as influencing government decision making. i think it's fair

to say that i and others had come to these conclusions before that. what weighed with me where the numbers. why was the drive such that it was, or the _ why was the drive such that it was, or the dawning realisation on the part of— or the dawning realisation on the part of various parts of government and the _ part of various parts of government and the people within it, not coming from the _ and the people within it, not coming from the dhs ee, the department of health, _ from the dhs ee, the department of health, the lead government department responsible for health? | department responsible for health? [ do department responsible for health? do believe department responsible for health? i do believe that that weekend, as i recall, the secretary of state for health was also, like me, keen on the exercise of greater caution when it came to dealing with the virus and was, like me, and advocates, i believe, for very uncomfortable restrictions on civil liberty to deal with the health emergency. the secretary of state himself engaged in what _ secretary of state himself engaged in what became of course the

iockdown _ in what became of course the lockdown debate, the need for more stringent _ lockdown debate, the need for more stringent measures. but why wasn't institutionally the dhs ee its officials, its advisers, its civil servants— officials, its advisers, its civil servants responsible at that stage, the lead _ servants responsible at that stage, the lead government department for the lead government department for the response to the crisis not driving — the response to the crisis not driving the government machine forward — driving the government machine forward to— driving the government machine forward to this conclusion? i forward to this conclusion? believe it forward to this conclusion? i believe it was the case that the secretary of state and others within dhse would have been pressing up on number ten and the prime minister they need to act at that time as well. �* ., ., they need to act at that time as well. �* . ., ., , ,, well. i'm afraid i need to press ou. well. i'm afraid i need to press you- you _ well. i'm afraid i need to press you- you say — well. i'm afraid i need to press you- you say you _ well. i'm afraid i need to press you. you say you seen - well. i'm afraid i need to press you. you say you seen e-mails well. i'm afraid i need to press i you. you say you seen e-mails or you. you say you seen e—mails or communications from the dhse to the prime _ communications from the dhse to the prime minister saying, we are behind the curve, _ prime minister saying, we are behind the curve, we have missed a trick here, _ the curve, we have missed a trick here, we — the curve, we have missed a trick here, we are _ the curve, we have missed a trick here, we are delayed and there is an urgent _ here, we are delayed and there is an urgent need — here, we are delayed and there is an urgent need for more stringent measures— urgent need for more stringent measures and we need a change in

strategy? — measures and we need a change in strate: ? ., , , . ., ., strategy? no, but my recollection of the conversations _ strategy? no, but my recollection of the conversations i _ strategy? no, but my recollection of the conversations i had _ strategy? no, but my recollection of the conversations i had around - strategy? no, but my recollection of the conversations i had around that| the conversations i had around that time was that the secretary of state was of that view, and i should say that i'm pretty certain that he would have communicated that in conversation with the prime minister. but again, i would conversation with the prime minister. but again, iwould not have been in all of those conversations and one of the reasons why i texted and e—mailed as i did was to alert people to my concerns and to hope that if they were, as i believe, if they were of similar mind to feel strengthened in their desire to push forward with this restrictions because they would know that they had my support. fin restrictions because they would know that they had my support.— that they had my support. on the 12th of march. _ that they had my support. on the 12th of march, as _ that they had my support. on the 12th of march, as we _ that they had my support. on the 12th of march, as we know - that they had my support. on the 12th of march, as we know there l that they had my support. on the i 12th of march, as we know there was self isolation or individual

symptomatic for seven days. on the 16th of— symptomatic for seven days. on the 16th of march, cobra decided that there _ 16th of march, cobra decided that there needed to be more further stringent — there needed to be more further stringent measures and you will recall— stringent measures and you will recall the — stringent measures and you will recall the household isolation for 14 days, — recall the household isolation for 14 days, reduced contact, advice, over— 14 days, reduced contact, advice, over 70 _ 14 days, reduced contact, advice, over 70 is — 14 days, reduced contact, advice, over 70 is particularly must ensure they reduce — over 70 is particularly must ensure they reduce contact and there was a warning _ they reduce contact and there was a warning about the move to shielding imminently. on the 18th, cobra decided — imminently. on the 18th, cobra decided to close schools from the 20th, _ decided to close schools from the 20th. just — decided to close schools from the 20th, just in very general terms. did you _ 20th, just in very general terms. did you have any direct dealings with the — did you have any direct dealings with the prime minister during the course _ with the prime minister during the course of— with the prime minister during the course of that week as to whether or not those _ course of that week as to whether or not those more stringent measures heeded _ not those more stringent measures needed to— not those more stringent measures needed to be applied? i ask you this because _ needed to be applied? i ask you this because the evidence from mr cummings has been that there was a widespread view, he said pretty much everyone. _ widespread view, he said pretty much everyone, considered the prime minister— everyone, considered the prime minister to be oscillating in relation _ minister to be oscillating in relation to his response. what was

your assessment of the prime minister's intense, state of mind as to whether— minister's intense, state of mind as to whether these measures should be countenanced? | to whether these measures should be countenanced?— countenanced? i think the prime minister found _ countenanced? i think the prime minister found these _ countenanced? i think the prime minister found these decisions i minister found these decisions difficult. it's not that he found decision—making difficult, it is that a decision to restrict freedoms in an unprecedented way went against his instincts and the principles that governed his political outlook. the prime minister at the time, mr johnson, was someone who was a liberal in so many senses and certainly someone who found the idea of restricting free association deeply difficult, deeply opposed to

his worldview. and therefore, as i think everyone knows, to contemplate such a big measure with the inevitable costs was a decision of huge weight. i believe that the evidence was clear that such a decision was unavoidable. again, i'm sor to decision was unavoidable. again, i'm sorry to interrupt, _ decision was unavoidable. again, i'm sorry to interrupt, use _ decision was unavoidable. again, i'm sorry to interrupt, use a _ decision was unavoidable. again, i'm sorry to interrupt, use a decision. . sorry to interrupt, use a decision. you appear— sorry to interrupt, use a decision. you appear to be relating your decision— you appear to be relating your decision to the lockdown decision, i'm decision to the lockdown decision, i'm asking — decision to the lockdown decision, i'm asking about this stringently of the measures. the i'm asking about this stringently of the measures.— i'm asking about this stringently of the measures. . , , ., the measures. the measures were not taken lightly- — the measures. the measures were not taken lightly- in _ the measures. the measures were not taken lightly. in terms _ the measures. the measures were not taken lightly. in terms of _ the measures. the measures were not taken lightly. in terms of the - the measures. the measures were not taken lightly. in terms of the prime i taken lightly. in terms of the prime minister possibly making style, the oscillation referred to, it is in

the nature of the way that boris johnson worked that he wanted to see thesis antithesis, that he wanted, he preferred gladiatorial decision—making rather than inquisitor. he wanted to see the three cases rehearsed in front of him or even rehearsed in his own mind. and i know that he would sometimes run argument a and r0 to collate daesh articulate it himself —— articulate it himself. for some people, that style of decision—making or that way of running meetings was difficult to take but i had known the prime ministerfor some time and minister for some time and appreciated ministerfor some time and appreciated this was the way he needed to process information in order to get to an outcome. and

every political leader, every distinctive political leader will have their own way of operating that needs a certain amount of space and respect, even if you disagree. this was a public _ respect, even if you disagree. this was a public health emergency at its core _ was a public health emergency at its core by— was a public health emergency at its core. by that week, the evidence or rather— core. by that week, the evidence or rather the _ core. by that week, the evidence or rather the advice from sage, from the cmo, — rather the advice from sage, from the cmo, the gc essay, from the dhse, _ the cmo, the gc essay, from the dhse, from cabinet office, number ten was _ dhse, from cabinet office, number ten was to— dhse, from cabinet office, number ten was to use your words, unanimous. there was no real argument _ unanimous. there was no real argument as to whether, for good and obvious— argument as to whether, for good and obvious public health reasons, these reasons— obvious public health reasons, these reasons had to be contemplated, so there _ reasons had to be contemplated, so there wasn't really a thesis and antithesis— there wasn't really a thesis and antithesis position here, mr gove. all the _ antithesis position here, mr gove. all the public health advice on a

public— all the public health advice on a public health crisis were pointing in one _ public health crisis were pointing in one direction, so on what basis couid _ in one direction, so on what basis could the — in one direction, so on what basis could the prime minister pushed back and say, _ could the prime minister pushed back and say, well, i've got material which _ and say, well, i've got material which does _ and say, well, i've got material which does point the other way. there _ which does point the other way. there was— which does point the other way. there was no public health material pointing _ there was no public health material pointing the other way, was there? the first— pointing the other way, was there? the first thing is just a few weeks beforehand... i’m the first thing is 'ust a few weeks beforehand. . ._ the first thing is 'ust a few weeks beforehand... �* . ~ ., ., beforehand... i'm talking about that week. beforehand... i'm talking about that week- quite — beforehand... i'm talking about that week. quite but _ beforehand... i'm talking about that week. quite but in _ beforehand. .. i'm talking about that week. quite but in order— beforehand... i'm talking about that week. quite but in order to - beforehand... i'm talking about that week. quite but in order to come i beforehand... i'm talking about that week. quite but in order to come asj week. quite but in order to come as ou week. quite but in order to come as you evidence _ week. quite but in order to come as you evidence shows, _ week. quite but in order to come as you evidence shows, i _ week. quite but in order to come as you evidence shows, i was - week. quite but in order to come as you evidence shows, i was in - week. quite but in order to come as you evidence shows, i was in a - you evidence shows, i was in a different position at that time, however in fairness to the prime minister, just a few weeks before, the point had been made that to impose these measures was... tao impose these measures was... too earl . impose these measures was... too early- yes. — impose these measures was. .. too early- yes. was— impose these measures was... too early. yes, was problematic. - impose these measures was... too early. yes, was problematic. and l impose these measures was... too early. yes, was problematic. and i | early. yes, was problematic. and i think he is — early. yes, was problematic. and i think he is the _ early. yes, was problematic. and i think he is the ultimate _ think he is the ultimate decision—maker and therefore i think he any prime minister, is entitled to test propositions and to think,

is the restriction of liberty and the economic damage consequent upon lockdown worth inflicting on people in order to prevent the spread of this virus? i believe that the evidence was clear but i think it only fell to the ultimate decision—maker that they have a chance to reflect on the momentous nature of the decision and to consider arguments against it. i need to suggest to you because of the material which has been received and the _ the material which has been received and the evidence given that it wasn't — and the evidence given that it wasn'tjust a question and the evidence given that it wasn't just a question of testing imposing — wasn't just a question of testing imposing argument. the material was, as i imposing argument. the material was, as i have _ imposing argument. the material was, as i have suggested to you, and of course _ as i have suggested to you, and of course it's— as i have suggested to you, and of course it's a — as i have suggested to you, and of course it's a matter for you or one way in _ course it's a matter for you or one way in public— course it's a matter for you or one way in public health terms, the suggestion has been made that he didn't— suggestion has been made that he didn'tjust — suggestion has been made that he didn'tjust test the suggestion has been made that he didn't just test the opposing arguments, he was incapable of making — arguments, he was incapable of making a — arguments, he was incapable of making a decision or at least not sticking — making a decision or at least not sticking to — making a decision or at least not sticking to a decision that he had already— sticking to a decision that he had already made. is that a fair

suggestion? would you say in light of yourm — suggestion? would you say in light of your... experience and closeness to the _ of your... experience and closeness to the government machine at that time? _ to the government machine at that time? |_ to the government machine at that time? , ., , ., to the government machine at that time? , ., . . . . time? i believe it was a reluctance to embrace _ time? i believe it was a reluctance to embrace a _ time? i believe it was a reluctance to embrace a decision _ time? i believe it was a reluctance to embrace a decision rather- time? i believe it was a reluctance to embrace a decision rather than| time? i believe it was a reluctance i to embrace a decision rather than an inability to stick to one, because again, the prime minister had a view that overreaction was often a greater danger. he also had a principled attachment to maximising individual liberty. therefore it was difficult for him, both from the point of view of his outlook on how to handle crises and the set of principles by which he guided his political life, it was difficult for him to contemplate something like this, especially when we had been told, as i sayjust weeks beforehand that these were measures that should only be applied for a limited period and at the right time. the prime

minister eventually concluded this was the right thing to do... you are watching bbc news. you can carry on watching the covid inquiry on the bbc news website. it was the case that he was oscillating, i think it was the case that he was weighing things before coming reluctantly but firmly to a conclusion. coming reluctantly but firmly to a conclusion-— coming reluctantly but firmly to a conclusion. . , , , , conclusion. and this may we presume doesnt conclusion. and this may we presume doesn't denigrate _ conclusion. and this may we presume doesn't denigrate from _ conclusion. and this may we presume doesn't denigrate from your— conclusion. and this may we presume doesn't denigrate from your earlier i doesn't denigrate from your earlier evidence _ doesn't denigrate from your earlier evidence that the government machine as a whole _ evidence that the government machine as a whole may have acted too slowly? — as a whole may have acted too slowly? the prime minister, he took the ultimate decisions in that week and the _ the ultimate decisions in that week and the week after privately? yes, and the week after privately? yes, and again. — and the week after privately? yes, and again. the _ and the week after privately? yes, and again, the prime _ and the week after privately? 1a: and again, the prime minister is and the week after privately? 123 and again, the prime minister is the ultimate decision—maker but no prime minister takes decisions in a

vacuum. my view, it is with the benefit of hindsight, is that we should have acted earlier but that means it is incumbent on all of us who believe that to look back and think, did we say or do enough sufficiently early in order to enjoin upon the prime minister the need for action? i mentioned briefly rory stewart. rory was only calling for the sorts of steps that we required in public on the 12th of march, again he was making it clear that we needed to act that day, that was the same day i shed the article privately —— shared the article. so the consensus for action became firmer and clearer in that second week of march, with the benefit of hindsight, if only two have been a and clearer in all our minds

earlier, but i don't think one can single out the prime minister at the time for criticism. we all deserve our share, retrospectively, of criticism. our share, retrospectively, of criticism-— our share, retrospectively, of criticism. ., . ., ., ., criticism. you chaired the cobra on frida the criticism. you chaired the cobra on friday the 20th — criticism. you chaired the cobra on friday the 20th of _ criticism. you chaired the cobra on friday the 20th of march. - criticism. you chaired the cobra on friday the 20th of march. can - criticism. you chaired the cobra on friday the 20th of march. can we | friday the 20th of march. can we have _ friday the 20th of march. can we have 1062603, a paper on additional measures _ have 1062603, a paper on additional measures. these are the measures which _ measures. these are the measures which were — measures. these are the measures which were put in place on the 20th, to try— which were put in place on the 20th, to try to— which were put in place on the 20th, to try to achieve the overarching objective — to try to achieve the overarching objective of a 75% reduction in nonessential social mixing. if we 'ust nonessential social mixing. if we just looked very briefly at page one, _ just looked very briefly at page one, paragraphs 2—4, we can see there — one, paragraphs 2—4, we can see there is— one, paragraphs 2—4, we can see there is a _ one, paragraphs 2—4, we can see there is a general position on compliance set out. and the history of the _ compliance set out. and the history of the government steps are set out from monday the 16th of march. you can scroll— from monday the 16th of march. you can scroll back out to paragraph three. _ can scroll back out to paragraph three. but—

can scroll back out to paragraph three, but it is a reference to latest — three, but it is a reference to latest public polling data which shows — latest public polling data which shows the number of people who claim to be engaging in socially distancing behaviours and on page four, _ distancing behaviours and on page four, paragraph four, the mixed picture — four, paragraph four, the mixed picture means there is merit in considering further measures to increase — considering further measures to increase compliance. there is a reference — increase compliance. there is a reference to overnight polling and then, _ reference to overnight polling and then, as _ reference to overnight polling and then, as such it is proposed that measures— then, as such it is proposed that measures apply to the whole united kingdom _ measures apply to the whole united kingdom. there were some positive indications. — kingdom. there were some positive indications, if we go back to the first page. — indications, if we go back to the first page, it is obvious, mr gove, that tube — first page, it is obvious, mr gove, that tube travel was down, west footfati — that tube travel was down, west footfall was down, google placed data showed significant drops, so the position on the friday appeared to be, _ the position on the friday appeared to be, is— the position on the friday appeared to be, is this correct, that there was _ to be, is this correct, that there was significant material showing compliance was up but it was just not enough, it hadn't reached the

75% reduction in social distancing that was— 75% reduction in social distancing that was required? is that right? absolutely. that was required? is that right? absolutely-— absolutely. why didn't cobra consider expressly _ absolutely. why didn't cobra consider expressly waiting i absolutely. why didn't cobra j consider expressly waiting to absolutely. why didn't cobra - consider expressly waiting to see whether— consider expressly waiting to see whether or not they measures which had been _ whether or not they measures which had been put in place on monday the 12th would _ had been put in place on monday the 12th would have effect over a longer time period? there is an acceptance that it _ time period? there is an acceptance that it is _ time period? there is an acceptance that it is not — time period? there is an acceptance that it is not good enough, but wide couid _ that it is not good enough, but wide couid cobra — that it is not good enough, but wide could cobra not have waited and by extension. — could cobra not have waited and by extension, by analogy, why could not the ultimate decision on monday the 23rd have _ the ultimate decision on monday the 23rd have been delayed a bit more to see whether or not these compliance figures _ see whether or not these compliance figures would continue to go in the i’ili'it figures would continue to go in the right direction and reach the right teveis? _ right direction and reach the right levels? �* .., , , right direction and reach the right levels? �* , , .,, levels? because the virus was spreading _ levels? because the virus was spreading exponentially - levels? because the virus was spreading exponentially and l levels? because the virus was l spreading exponentially and the levels? because the virus was - spreading exponentially and the risk was that the nhs would be overwhelmed. taste was that the nhs would be overwhelmed.— was that the nhs would be overwhelmed. ~ . ., ., was that the nhs would be overwhelmed. ~ .., ., was that the nhs would be overwhelmed. ~ _, ., ., overwhelmed. we will come to look at the nhs in a — overwhelmed. we will come to look at the nhs in a moment, _ overwhelmed. we will come to look at the nhs in a moment, but— overwhelmed. we will come to look at the nhs in a moment, but was- the nhs in a moment, but was their debate _ the nhs in a moment, but was their debate on _ the nhs in a moment, but was their debate on the friday about the hard

data presented in relation to the impact _ data presented in relation to the impact on — data presented in relation to the impact on the nhs? hard data relating — impact on the nhs? hard data relating to the likely mortality rates — relating to the likely mortality rates that would continue to go up if the _ rates that would continue to go up if the measures were not imposed? and on— if the measures were not imposed? and on the — if the measures were not imposed? and on the lead or the possibility of waiting — and on the lead or the possibility of waiting further? the inquiry well understands exponential growth and evidence _ understands exponential growth and evidence has been given by professor chris whitty as to what it means in practice _ chris whitty as to what it means in practice. unless you get on top of exponential growth, it will continue and it— exponential growth, it will continue and it will— exponential growth, it will continue and it will continue relentlessly untit— and it will continue relentlessly until the — and it will continue relentlessly until the country is completely overwhelmed and the death, mortality rates are _ overwhelmed and the death, mortality rates are absolutely intolerable. but it _ rates are absolutely intolerable. but it is — rates are absolutely intolerable. but it is a — rates are absolutely intolerable. but it is a curve, it is a degree. why— but it is a curve, it is a degree. why was— but it is a curve, it is a degree. why was there not more debate about the alternative of waiting to see whether— the alternative of waiting to see whether or not this would work? because — whether or not this would work? because those of us who are taking

decisions understood where we were in terms of the growth of the virus. the whole point about exponential growth is the famous analogy of a grain of rice on the first corner of a chest board —— chessboard. by the time you get to the final other corner of a chess board, you are talking in terms and in numbers literally unimaginable. therefore as you move from one, two, four, two eight and so on, if you leave it for another day or another week, the numbers are so significant and so huge that you know that you have left it too late. and as chris whitty made clear, the measures that you take have a time lag before they begin to take effect. so you have the curve going up and up and up, and the measure not beginning to take effect for some time, so

therefore you do need to hit the curve at the earliest possible point when you know that growth is exponential.— when you know that growth is exponential. when you know that growth is exonential. ., ., ,, ., exponential. you all knew that there was exponential _ exponential. you all knew that there was exponential growth, _ exponential. you all knew that there was exponential growth, that - exponential. you all knew that there was exponential growth, that is - exponential. you all knew that there was exponential growth, that is the | was exponential growth, that is the nature _ was exponential growth, that is the nature of— was exponential growth, that is the nature of this virus. once control has been — nature of this virus. once control has been lost, it will spread exponentially, and you knew that on the 12th _ exponentially, and you knew that on the 12th of— exponentially, and you knew that on the 12th of march 21 measures were imposed _ the 12th of march 21 measures were imposed and on the 16th of march and then on— imposed and on the 16th of march and then on the _ imposed and on the 16th of march and then on the 20th of march. but notwithstanding your understanding of the _ notwithstanding your understanding of the risks of exponential growth, you are _ of the risks of exponential growth, you are still prepared to try those measures — you are still prepared to try those measures. you didn't say on the 12th and 16th, _ measures. you didn't say on the 12th and 16th, well, the central feature of exponential growth is it is going to be _ of exponential growth is it is going to be terrible and it will overwhelm us uniess _ to be terrible and it will overwhelm us unless we have a lockdown. you were _ us unless we have a lockdown. you were prepared to countenance measures short of a lockdown. why didn't— measures short of a lockdown. why didn't you _ measures short of a lockdown. why didn't you give longer for those measures— didn't you give longer for those measures to work on the premise that on the _ measures to work on the premise that on the 12th _ measures to work on the premise that on the 12th and 16th of march you knew— on the 12th and 16th of march you knew you — on the 12th and 16th of march you knew you were dealing with an

exponential crisis already? i think it was the case _ exponential crisis already? i think it was the case that _ exponential crisis already? i think it was the case that both - exponential crisis already? i think it was the case that both in - exponential crisis already? i think it was the case that both in the i it was the case that both in the communications that i had with people on the 12th and also, i was pressing at the time for the most vigorous action as early as we possibly could.— vigorous action as early as we ossibl could. . , , ., possibly could. can i interrupt you there? are _ possibly could. can i interrupt you there? are you — possibly could. can i interrupt you there? are you saying _ possibly could. can i interrupt you there? are you saying therefore i possibly could. can i interrupt you i there? are you saying therefore that you would _ there? are you saying therefore that you would have countenanced and you believe _ you would have countenanced and you believe it _ you would have countenanced and you believe it was a pro to be at to pose _ believe it was a pro to be at to pose a — believe it was a pro to be at to pose a lockdown perhaps on the 16th and 20th _ pose a lockdown perhaps on the 16th and 20th of march? yes. pose a lockdown perhaps on the 16th and 20th of march?— and 20th of march? yes. what about the week before? _ and 20th of march? yes. what about the week before? i _ and 20th of march? yes. what about the week before? i came _ and 20th of march? yes. what about the week before? i came to - and 20th of march? yes. what about the week before? i came to the - the week before? i came to the conclusion _ the week before? i came to the conclusion that _ the week before? i came to the conclusion that it _ the week before? i came to the conclusion that it was _ the week before? i came to the l conclusion that it was necessary. the week before? i came to the - conclusion that it was necessary. as i sa , conclusion that it was necessary. i say, the conclusion that it was necessary. is i say, the article conclusion that it was necessary. sés i say, the article crystallised conclusion that it was necessary. sis i say, the article crystallised that imperative in my mind more than anything. do imperative in my mind more than an hina. ,, imperative in my mind more than an hina. imperative in my mind more than an hinu. anything. do you call in the cobra meetin: anything. do you call in the cobra meeting is _ anything. do you call in the cobra meeting is that _ anything. do you call in the cobra meeting is that you _ anything. do you call in the cobra meeting is that you chaired - anything. do you call in the cobra meeting is that you chaired and i meeting is that you chaired and attended — meeting is that you chaired and attended the week of the 16th of

march _ attended the week of the 16th of march for a lockdown to be imposed that day? _ march for a lockdown to be imposed that day? |— march for a lockdown to be imposed that da ? ., �* , ., that day? i don't believe that i did but i do believe _ that day? i don't believe that i did but i do believe that _ that day? i don't believe that i did but i do believe that my _ but i do believe that my communications to other decision—makers shows the position that i took, but i would not have wanted to, given that the nature, certainly when i chaired cobra, was to act as a chair rather than an instigator or an advocates. my instinct would have been, at that point, to seek consensus and to give effect to collective government policy. effect to collective government oli . , :, effect to collective government oli , ., , effect to collective government oli . , :, , effect to collective government oli , ., , ., policy. sorry to interrupt, you have obviously referred _ policy. sorry to interrupt, you have obviously referred to _ policy. sorry to interrupt, you have obviously referred to the _ policy. sorry to interrupt, you have obviously referred to the article i obviously referred to the article that had — obviously referred to the article that had some _ obviously referred to the article that had some influence - obviously referred to the article that had some influence on- obviously referred to the article that had some influence on youj obviously referred to the article i that had some influence on you by the sounds — that had some influence on you by the sounds of— that had some influence on you by the sounds of it. _ that had some influence on you by the sounds of it. did _ that had some influence on you by the sounds of it. did you - that had some influence on you by the sounds of it. did you have - the sounds of it. did you have access— the sounds of it. did you have access to _ the sounds of it. did you have access to other— the sounds of it. did you have access to other material- the sounds of it. did you have access to other material for. the sounds of it. did you have - access to other material for example from scientists— access to other material for example from scientists who _ access to other material for example from scientists who advised - access to other material for example from scientists who advised against. from scientists who advised against lockdown? — from scientists who advised against lockdown? :. from scientists who advised against lockdown? . ., , , lockdown? later on, yes. i paid attention to _ lockdown? later on, yes. i paid attention to the _ lockdown? later on, yes. i paid attention to the arguments - lockdown? later on, yes. i paid attention to the arguments put|

attention to the arguments put forward by people like the authors of the great barrington declaration and others. i think that obviously their point of view i respect, but their point of view i respect, but the propositions that they put forward were undeliverable. the idea that we could shield the elderly and allow young people free rein i think given the nature of multi—generational households, it would not have been effective in mitigating the virus. quite a lot of people have understandably said sweden managed these things better, but again, many of those who advocate that we should have gone down a swedish route misunderstand what sweden did. sweden was able to reduce social mixing by a greater degree of reliance on white societal acceptance of those restrictions. we, as this cobra paper points out,

were seeking societal, what's the word, compliance with those measures but we knew that wouldn't be enough and it was too late, and indeed as the evidence points out, we were told to act. again, people i understand how this happens, having been a journalist, people in the media will sometimes paint a picture of what is happening in order to create a greater sense of drama or divergence. so sweden, libertarian nirvana, britain lockdown dystopia. actually, the approach taken by both countries was more similar than many would like to admit. another point as well, if i may, people also sometimes make the argument that there was a tension between the economy and health. obviously

lockdown create problems for the economy, but as i subsequently wrote in an article in the times to explain our reasoning, if we had allowed the pandemic to develop without taking the steps that we did, the nhs would have been overwhelmed and that would have meant an impact on economic activity far greater than that that we had to endure. so when people talk about the trade—off between the economy and health, when you have the virus, you need to respond in a way that protects both the health service and the health of the nation and the economy. the health of the nation and the econom . :. the health of the nation and the econom . . ., i. the health of the nation and the econom . :. . ,, , the health of the nation and the econom . . ., i. , ., economy. can i ask you 'ust for the few remaining * economy. can i ask you just for the few remaining questions _ economy. can i ask you just for the few remaining questions on - economy. can i ask you just for the few remaining questions on this i few remaining questions on this subject— few remaining questions on this subject to — few remaining questions on this subject to focus on that reek of the 16th of— subject to focus on that reek of the 16th of march? of subject to focus on that reek of the 16th of march?— subject to focus on that reek of the 16th of march?_ you - subject to focus on that reek of the 16th of march?_ you said 16th of march? of course. you said when ou 16th of march? of course. you said when you chaired _ 16th of march? of course. you said when you chaired cobra _ 16th of march? of course. you said when you chaired cobra your - 16th of march? of course. you said i when you chaired cobra your position was that— when you chaired cobra your position was that you — when you chaired cobra your position was that you should act as a chair rather—

was that you should act as a chair rather than — was that you should act as a chair rather than an instigator or advocate, you wanted to see consensus. the material shows quite clearly— consensus. the material shows quite clearly that _ consensus. the material shows quite clearly that over the weekend of saturday — clearly that over the weekend of saturday the 14th of march, and also latterty _ saturday the 14th of march, and also latterty in _ saturday the 14th of march, and also latterly in october, november and then again in december, he made no bones— then again in december, he made no bones at— then again in december, he made no bones at all— then again in december, he made no bones at all about the need for the particular— bones at all about the need for the particular measure under consideration, lockdown is two and three _ consideration, lockdown is two and three you — consideration, lockdown is two and three. you made your position perfectly— three. you made your position perfectly plain. having a knowledge that your _ perfectly plain. having a knowledge that your own view was lockdown needed _ that your own view was lockdown needed to — that your own view was lockdown needed to be imposed on the week of the 16th _ needed to be imposed on the week of the 16th of— needed to be imposed on the week of the 16th of march, why did you in these _ the 16th of march, why did you in these cobra meetings, one of which you chaired, — these cobra meetings, one of which you chaired, not so, i, michael gove, — you chaired, not so, i, michael gove, believe the only way forward, the only— gove, believe the only way forward, the only sensible route is a lockdown now to save lives? i lockdown now to save lives? believe i lockdown now to save lives? i believe i had communicated my view is clearly in every forum where i

could. it's in the nature of ministerial life that sometimes you chair a meeting of a subcommittee or a cabinet committee and yourjob there is to act as a neutral chair, seeking consensus than sometimes you are an advocate for a particular position, a departmental position or a deeply felt position. and i had been asked by the prime minister to chair that cobra and i was acting as it were under instructions and i felt that was the right thing to do, to serve the government collectively. in to serve the government collectively. to serve the government collectivel . , ., collectively. in hindsight, do you recret collectively. in hindsight, do you regret that _ collectively. in hindsight, do you regret that you _ collectively. in hindsight, do you regret that you are _ collectively. in hindsight, do you regret that you are not - collectively. in hindsight, do you regret that you are not more - regret that you are not more forthright in what you plainly and generally believe was the right course — generally believe was the right course of action to take? generally --eole course of action to take? generally people have _ course of action to take? generally people have always _ course of action to take? generally people have always been _ course of action to take? generally people have always been unhappyl course of action to take? generally - people have always been unhappy when i have been more forthright in the past, but on this occasion, i should definitely have been more forthright. definitely have been more forthright-—

definitely have been more forthrirht. , ., ., ., forthright. this was a matter of life and death. _ forthright. this was a matter of life and death. absolutely - forthright. this was a matter of life and death. absolutely and l forthright. this was a matter of. life and death. absolutely and that is wh i life and death. absolutely and that is why i believe _ life and death. absolutely and that is why i believe i _ life and death. absolutely and that is why i believe i should _ life and death. absolutely and that is why i believe i should have - life and death. absolutely and that| is why i believe i should have been. thank you. the decision to implement the national lockdown was taken on that monday and there was a cobra. can we _ that monday and there was a cobra. can we look— that monday and there was a cobra. can we look at 56213, which is the minutes— can we look at 56213, which is the minutes of— can we look at 56213, which is the minutes of that meeting, just by way of quick— minutes of that meeting, just by way of quick observation, if we look at the first— of quick observation, if we look at the first page we can see that there were a _ the first page we can see that there were a number of ministers there. 0ver— were a number of ministers there. 0verthe— were a number of ministers there. over the page, were a number of ministers there. overthe page, i were a number of ministers there. over the page, i should say, were a number of ministers there. overthe page, i should say, mr gove, _ overthe page, i should say, mr gove, that— overthe page, i should say, mr gove, that minute doesn't reflect your attendance but you believe you were there — your attendance but you believe you were there. i your attendance but you believe you were there. . your attendance but you believe you were there-— were there. i believe i was, yes. over the page — were there. i believe i was, yes. over the page we _ were there. i believe i was, yes. over the page we can _ were there. i believe i was, yes. over the page we can see - were there. i believe i was, yes. i over the page we can see officials dialled _ over the page we can see officials dialled in — over the page we can see officials dialled in and then on page four, paragraphs 1—3, we can see the current— paragraphs 1—3, we can see the current situation update and there is more _ current situation update and there is more information given about compliance. it wasn't too bad as with the — compliance. it wasn't too bad as with the cobra on the monday, compliance was there in large part,

but the _ compliance was there in large part, but the park attendants over the weekend — but the park attendants over the weekend had shot up, you can see that in— weekend had shot up, you can see that in paragraph three. standing back, _ that in paragraph three. standing back, this — that in paragraph three. standing back, this penultimate decision making — back, this penultimate decision making body obviously the prime minister— making body obviously the prime minister had the whip out, but this penultimate decision making body discussed compliance rates but there was very— discussed compliance rates but there was very little by way of debate over _ was very little by way of debate over the — was very little by way of debate over the economic and societal harm that would _ over the economic and societal harm that would be necessarily done if these _ that would be necessarily done if these measures were to be imposed. over the _ these measures were to be imposed. over the terrible balancing exercise inherent _ over the terrible balancing exercise inherent in — over the terrible balancing exercise inherent in that decision. but also again. _ inherent in that decision. but also again. no— inherent in that decision. but also again, no discussion at all as to whether— again, no discussion at all as to whether or— again, no discussion at all as to whether or not more time should be given— whether or not more time should be given for— whether or not more time should be given for the measures which it, cobra, _ given for the measures which it, cobra, had — given for the measures which it, cobra, had imposed the very week before _ cobra, had imposed the very week before on— cobra, had imposed the very week before on the friday, three days before — before on the friday, three days before. why was there not more debate _ before. why was there not more debate about waiting to see whether or not—

debate about waiting to see whether or not those other measures, earlier measures. _ or not those other measures, earlier measures, which by implication must have been— measures, which by implication must have been sensible and welljudged measures, could be taken have effect? — again, it was clear, certainly to me, that those measures had been inadequate. i think at the time that i was sceptical that they would be enough, but understood why people thought this was proportionate. by definition, when you're dealing with any sort of crisis, if you use whatever data comes to hand, whatever data comes to hand, whatever feedback there is, whatever data comes to hand, whateverfeedback there is, in whatever data comes to hand, whatever feedback there is, in order to adjust your response. sticking inflexibly to a set of measures when those measures are clearly inadequate would be an error. but wh were inadequate would be an error. but why were they inadequates? if only three _ why were they inadequates? if only three days — why were they inadequates? if only three days had passed and compliance was going _ three days had passed and compliance was going up, but not fast enough, why were _ was going up, but not fast enough, why were they inadequate? might they not had _ why were they inadequate? might they not had become adequate two days

hence? _ not had become adequate two days hence? ., . . , not had become adequate two days hence? ., ., ., , i. not had become adequate two days hence? ., ., ., , .,