that concludes very much. that concludes questioning. _ very much. that concludes questioning. thank - very much. that concludes questioning. thank you, . very much. that concludes questioning. thank you, ll very much. that concludes - questioning. thank you, i can't give you a _ questioning. thank you, i can't give you a guarantee _ questioning. thank you, i can't give you a guarantee we _ questioning. thank you, i can't give you a guarantee we won't _ questioning. thank you, i can't give you a guarantee we won't ask- questioning. thank you, i can't give you a guarantee we won't ask you l questioning. thank you, i can't give| you a guarantee we won't ask you to help us— you a guarantee we won't ask you to help us again. — you a guarantee we won't ask you to help us again. i— you a guarantee we won't ask you to help us again-— you a guarantee we won't ask you to help us again. i would be very happy to come back- _ that brings the end of sajid javid, former health secretary, his evidence to the covid inquiry. he's been giving evidence for a few hours, it started at ten o'clock. it wasn't him, it was damejenny harries. he was talking about many things, not least saying his conclusion was that he didn't believe we have enough hospital beds

in the uk. while sajid javid was in front of the inquiry, rishi sunak has been in the commons for the weekly session of prime minister questions. the inquiry was brought up. questions. the inquiry was brought u . _ �* , , questions. the inquiry was brought u. h , ., questions. the inquiry was brought up. let's listen. iquote, rishi sunak up. let's listen. iquote, rishi suhakthihgs_ up. let's listen. iquote, rishi sunak things just _ up. let's listen. iquote, rishi sunak things just let - up. let's listen. iquote, rishi sunak things just let people i up. let's listen. iquote, rishi. sunak thingsjust let people die up. let's listen. iquote, rishi- sunak thingsjust let people die and sunak things just let people die and thatis sunak things just let people die and that is ok. this was reportedly a view of the prime minister of covid during late 2020, as recorded by the then chief scientific adviser in his diary. this came to light last week in the covid inquiry and i was shocked downing street didn't categorically deny it. could i ask the prime minister, how is it people who were closest to this issue, who he worked with day in, day out, at the top of government, how on earth did these people get the impression that the prime minister was... let’s

that the prime minister was... let's no back to that the prime minister was... let's go back to the _ that the prime minister was... let's go back to the covid _ that the prime minister was... let's go back to the covid inquiry, dominic raab is there. you were elected the _ dominic raab is there. you were elected the mp _ dominic raab is there. you were elected the mp for— dominic raab is there. you were elected the mp for walton - dominic raab is there. you were elected the mp for walton in - dominic raab is there. you were elected the mp for walton in the 2010 _ elected the mp for walton in the 2010 general election. and you have been an— 2010 general election. and you have been an mp ever since. you held a series— been an mp ever since. you held a series of— been an mp ever since. you held a series ofjunior ministerial roles between — series ofjunior ministerial roles between 2015 and 2018. is series ofjunior ministerial roles between 2015 and 2018.- between 2015 and 2018. is that ri . ht? between 2015 and 2018. is that right? correct. _ between 2015 and 2018. is that right? correct. it _ between 2015 and 2018. is that right? correct. it was - between 2015 and 2018. is that right? correct. it was in - between 2015 and 2018. is that right? correct. it was in july i between 2015 and 2018. is that | right? correct. it was in july 2018 ou were right? correct. it was in july 2018 you were appointed _ right? correct. it was in july 2018 you were appointed as _ right? correct. it was in july 2018 you were appointed as the - right? correct. it was in july 2018 i you were appointed as the secretary of state _ you were appointed as the secretary of state for exiting the european union, _ of state for exiting the european union, a — of state for exiting the european union, a post you held until november that year. that is correct. in november that year. that is correct. anuly_ november that year. that is correct. anuly 2019. — november that year. that is correct. injuly 2019, you were appointed as both are _ injuly 2019, you were appointed as both are secretary of state and also foreign _ both are secretary of state and also foreign secretary, and those two

posts _ foreign secretary, and those two posts you — foreign secretary, and those two posts you held for a two—year period~ — posts you held for a two—year period. until september 2021. that is correct — period. until september 2021. that is correct. that is the period we will be — is correct. that is the period we will be most concerned that you will answer _ will be most concerned that you will answer today. just for completeness, we should _ answer today. just for completeness, we should bear in mind midway through— we should bear in mind midway through that period, the foreign office _ through that period, the foreign office was merged with the department for international development, so you took on that extra _ development, so you took on that extra aspect whilst foreign secretary. and then secondly, in september 2021, you were appointed as secretary of state forjustice and lord — as secretary of state forjustice and lord chancellor, and also deputy prime _ and lord chancellor, and also deputy prime minister, and those posts you held for— prime minister, and those posts you held for about one year until september 2022, and held for about one year until september2022, and again held for about one year until september 2022, and again under the current— september 2022, and again under the current prime minister, between october— current prime minister, between october 2022 and april this year.

all 0ctober 2022 and april this year. all of— october 2022 and april this year. all of that — october 2022 and april this year. all of that is correct. the questions _ all of that is correct. the questions today - all of that is correct. the questions today will - all of that is correct. the questions today will focus on the period _ questions today will focus on the period of— questions today will focus on the period of the pandemic. in very broad _ period of the pandemic. in very broad summary, would it be right to say that— broad summary, would it be right to say that for— broad summary, would it be right to say that for a period of about a ntonth— say that for a period of about a month in— say that for a period of about a month in april 2020, because as we will hear. _ month in april 2020, because as we will hear, because of the prime minister— will hear, because of the prime minister boris johnson's illness you had a _ minister boris johnson's illness you had a particular role, you stepped up had a particular role, you stepped up and _ had a particular role, you stepped up and essentially took his place for a _ up and essentially took his place for a period of four weeks at that time? _ for a period of four weeks at that time? before that, from january to april 2020, — time? before that, from january to april 2020, and in the period afterwards, you had a rather different— afterwards, you had a rather different role, principally as foreign— different role, principally as foreign secretary but also supporting the prime minister as first secretary.— supporting the prime minister as first secretary. yes, i should say i stillt first secretary. yes, i should say i still try to — first secretary. yes, i should say i still try to do _ first secretary. yes, i should say i still try to do the _ first secretary. yes, i should say i still try to do the foreign - still try to do the foreign secretary role while i was covering for the pm when he was ill. the

foreign secretary role didn't drop away. no. perhaps the role of foreign secretary is one that is familiar. l foreign secretary is one that is familiar. ., ~' foreign secretary is one that is familiar. ., ,, ., ., , ., familiar. i would like to ask you 'ust a bit familiar. i would like to ask you just a bit more _ familiar. i would like to ask you just a bit more of— familiar. i would like to ask you just a bit more of the _ familiar. i would like to ask you just a bit more of the role - familiar. i would like to ask you just a bit more of the role of. familiar. i would like to ask you i just a bit more of the role of first secretary. — just a bit more of the role of first secretary, which is less well— known. can we _ secretary, which is less well— known. can we look— secretary, which is less well— known. can we look at paragraph 19 and 20 of your— can we look at paragraph 19 and 20 of your witness statement on page six? you _ of your witness statement on page six? you make the point there, first of all. _ six? you make the point there, first of all. that— six? you make the point there, first of all, that the role of first secretary is not one that is always felt, and — secretary is not one that is always felt, and indeed as you note, it hadn't — felt, and indeed as you note, it hadn't been occupied prior to your appointment, as i have mentioned in july 2019 _ appointment, as i have mentioned in july 2019. you talk about the role of deputy— july 2019. you talk about the role of deputy prime minister, a couple of deputy prime minister, a couple of paragraphs further down. i think

you said _ of paragraphs further down. i think you said both roles are somewhat hazy and — you said both roles are somewhat hazy and depend on who was filling them _ hazy and depend on who was filling them and _ hazy and depend on who was filling them and what the wishes of those who have _ them and what the wishes of those who have appointed them are. are they fairly— who have appointed them are. are they fairly similar in one sense, and would — they fairly similar in one sense, and would then normally be a first secretary — and would then normally be a first secretary and a deputy prime minister— secretary and a deputy prime minister or not? i secretary and a deputy prime minister or not?— secretary and a deputy prime minister or not? i don't think i've ever known _ minister or not? i don't think i've ever known of _ minister or not? i don't think i've ever known of a _ minister or not? i don't think i've ever known of a situation - minister or not? i don't think i've ever known of a situation where l minister or not? i don't think i've i ever known of a situation where you would have both, a deputy prime minister role is more formalised, but it all depends on the wishes of the prime minister, and frankly, the structure he and occupant of the role wishes to put around it. and normally the lead will come from the prime minister. the most obvious recent example of other myself doing it, orsubsequent recent example of other myself doing it, or subsequent holders, recent example of other myself doing it, orsubsequent holders, is recent example of other myself doing it, or subsequent holders, is when we were in coalition and nicaragua was deputy prime minister. there in the context —— nick clegg. there is

not a detailed manual. it is not a detailed manual. it is apparent — not a detailed manual. it is apparent from _ not a detailed manual. it is apparent from your - not a detailed manual. it is apparent from your witness statement that the _ apparent from your witness statement that the formal and well understood role nick— that the formal and well understood role nick clegg held was different from your role of first secretary during — from your role of first secretary during this _ from your role of first secretary during this earlier period. as you say. _ during this earlier period. as you say. you — during this earlier period. as you say, you understood the role to be, your words. — say, you understood the role to be, your words. a — say, you understood the role to be, your words, a gap filler, fixer, during — your words, a gap filler, fixer, during roles which fell outside the portfolio _ during roles which fell outside the portfolio of other cabinet ministers, supporting the prime minister— ministers, supporting the prime minister when you could, and as we will come _ minister when you could, and as we will come to, stepping in when necessary _ will come to, stepping in when necessary-— will come to, stepping in when necessa . . , , necessary. there are different ways ou can necessary. there are different ways you can do — necessary. there are different ways you can do it. _ necessary. there are different ways you can do it, and _ necessary. there are different ways you can do it, and that _ necessary. there are different ways you can do it, and that is _ necessary. there are different ways you can do it, and that is basically i you can do it, and that is basically right. the demands on any prime minister or several times what he or she could realistically do, and

therefore you need to prioritise to therefore you need to prioritise to the extent a first minister can lighten the load. i think it's a smart thing to do, and i would try to find the earnest, serious, not as politically imperative stuff, ijust try and shift that off the plate, and i did not put two prime ministers. and i did not put two prime ministers-— and i did not put two prime ministers. , , , ., . ministers. just before we leave it, ima . ininu ministers. just before we leave it, imagining your — ministers. just before we leave it, imagining your role _ ministers. just before we leave it, imagining your role in _ ministers. just before we leave it, imagining your role in 2019, - ministers. just before we leave it, | imagining your role in 2019, sorry, 2020 _ imagining your role in 2019, sorry, 2020 and — imagining your role in 2019, sorry, 2020 and into 2021, it would be wrong _ 2020 and into 2021, it would be wrong for — 2020 and into 2021, it would be wrong for us to imagine you were fulfilling — wrong for us to imagine you were fulfilling a — wrong for us to imagine you were fulfilling a role that you are by the prime minister's side all the time _ the prime minister's side all the time. it— the prime minister's side all the time. ., , the prime minister's side all the time. . , ,., ., time. it it was quite important in discharging _ time. it it was quite important in discharging that _ time. it it was quite important in discharging that role _ time. it it was quite important in discharging that role to - time. it it was quite important in discharging that role to precisely allow the prime minister to do other things. so sitting there, that's what a chief of staff is more, a member of his driver to office,

whoever that would be. that's not the role of the first secretary. to ut the role of the first secretary. to put some focus on it, this inquiry has heard — put some focus on it, this inquiry has heard a — put some focus on it, this inquiry has heard a lot of evidence about the daily— has heard a lot of evidence about the daily meetings the prime minister undertook, 915 meetings, the informal meetings of chief medical— the informal meetings of chief medical officer and so on. you attended — medical officer and so on. you attended those meetings occasionally, but certainly it was no part — occasionally, but certainly it was no part of— occasionally, but certainly it was no part of your role to be a regular attender~ — no part of your role to be a regular attender. my no part of your role to be a regular attender. g , . ., attender. my experience of government _ attender. my experience of government meetings, - attender. my experience of government meetings, you attender. my experience of - government meetings, you can have over attendance. you need the right balance between diversity of views and then cut to the chase. you don't need everyone there, otherwise everyone crawls over without getting forward. that is a mistake. i wouldn't have expected to be there in the room with the pm holding his hand. he didn't need that, neither

prime ministers have, or the predecessors. l prime ministers have, or the predecessors-— prime ministers have, or the predecessors. prime ministers have, or the redecessors. ., ,, ., ., predecessors. i would like to ask ou a predecessors. i would like to ask you a couple _ predecessors. i would like to ask you a couple of— predecessors. i would like to ask you a couple of points _ predecessors. i would like to ask you a couple of points about - predecessors. i would like to ask| you a couple of points about more general— you a couple of points about more general governance issues before we turn to— general governance issues before we turn to the _ general governance issues before we turn to the detail of the chronology. the first relates of the role of _ chronology. the first relates of the role of the — chronology. the first relates of the role of the cabinet in decision—making during this period, 2020. _ decision—making during this period, 2020, 202i — decision—making during this period, 2020, 2021. the inquiry has heard evidence _ 2020, 2021. the inquiry has heard evidence from a variety of witnesses, initially from helen mcnamara, and then others, about the marginalisation of cabinet during this period. the idea being whereas cabinet _ this period. the idea being whereas cabinet may have previously been an area policy— cabinet may have previously been an area policy was debated and formed, if you _ area policy was debated and formed, if you like. _ area policy was debated and formed, if you like. a— area policy was debated and formed, if you like, a practice developed, no doubt — if you like, a practice developed, no doubt not uniform, but nonetheless it became more frequent for policies _ nonetheless it became more frequent for policies to be decided in smaller— for policies to be decided in smaller groups and then presented to

cabinet _ smaller groups and then presented to cabinet for— smaller groups and then presented to cabinet for decision—making or even rubber—stamping. is that a description you are familiar with from _ description you are familiar with from this— description you are familiar with from this period? i description you are familiar with from this period?— from this period? i probably wouldn't agree _ from this period? i probably wouldn't agree with - from this period? i probably wouldn't agree with framing from this period? i probably l wouldn't agree with framing it from this period? i probably - wouldn't agree with framing it in those terms. the cabinet can be used for scaler businesses, from open discussion to decision—making with all the points. that has been the case for every prime minister i have served, including david cameron. for example, in the context of brexit, cabinet was important, but you had the brexit excess, as it was called. and you also had other cobra meetings. you would expect to distill decisions downward the right pass, then two putted to cabinet, but kavanagh doesn't need to

duplicate discussions that have been held at length —— cabinet. i think that would be frankly poor use of time. what is important is that cabinet, and anyone in cabinet who hasn't been privy to earlier discussions, either because they are peripheral, or because something may have been miss, it is the opportunity to raise a hand, and that happened through the period. cabinet was a tear on top of all these other tiers of government put in place. these other tiers of government put in lace. . ~ these other tiers of government put in lace. . ,, , these other tiers of government put in lace. , ., in place. picking up on the last oint, in place. picking up on the last point. one _ in place. picking up on the last point. one of— in place. picking up on the last point, one of the _ in place. picking up on the last point, one of the suggestions. in place. picking up on the last - point, one of the suggestions made is as a _ point, one of the suggestions made is as a consequence of kavanagh decision—making being drawn back —— cabinet. _ decision—making being drawn back —— cabinet, something of a variety of

input _ cabinet, something of a variety of input and — cabinet, something of a variety of input and a — cabinet, something of a variety of input and a broad understanding of real life _ input and a broad understanding of real life may have been lost. you agree _ real life may have been lost. you agree with — real life may have been lost. you agree with that? no, real life may have been lost. you agree with that?— real life may have been lost. you agree with that? no, i don't think i do, not in those _ agree with that? no, i don't think i do, not in those terms. _ agree with that? no, i don't think i do, not in those terms. whether i agree with that? no, i don't think i i do, not in those terms. whether any cabinet is going to be a perfect reflection of society, i do think it is therefore. the combination of cabinets and parliament should mean we are sensitive to all the evidence. i think tony blair so you pay your money, you take your choice. you can have endless conversation and not make decisions, or strike the right balance between getting a proper diversity of views, in the sense of variety of views and test them, but be clear when to move

forward. which in covid you need to do. the discussion can't go on endlessly, as fascinating at an academic level it may be. i think i found it informative and learnt a lot from the two major scientific officers, patrick balance and chris whitty about how sage operated. you could debate the themes and thusly. you've got to decide at some point and take action, and that is where cabinet comes in. someone will always criticise you for not being decisive enough, and i think tony blair said you pay your money, you take your choice. overall, within the limits of what you could do in

an emergency of this unprecedented nature, with cabinet as it is, i think we probably struck probably the right balance between testing views but making sure we took action. ., r' views but making sure we took action. ., ., views but making sure we took action. ., ,~' i. ., ,., ., action. let me ask you about a different matter, _ action. let me ask you about a different matter, and - action. let me ask you about a different matter, and that - action. let me ask you about a different matter, and that is i action. let me ask you about a l different matter, and that is the role, _ different matter, and that is the role, the — different matter, and that is the role, the influence of dominic cummings in downing street during 2020 _ cummings in downing street during 2020. again, the inquiry has heard evidence _ 2020. again, the inquiry has heard evidence about what he did. we've heard _ evidence about what he did. we've heard from — evidence about what he did. we've heard from him, of course. various people _ heard from him, of course. various people have — heard from him, of course. various people have described his influence, his decisions. what was your impression of him, and what your understanding of the role he played in decision—making in the early months — in decision—making in the early months of— in decision—making in the early months of the pandemic? you may need to break this down, or

i will end up rambling on, the let