science and january for a conclusive science and the advice from public health england is these do not provide evidence for asymptomatic transmission so that is why there is an apparent distinction here and it is frustrating the suit was not cleared up earlier. you appear to be suggesting that you place greater— you appear to be suggesting that you place greater weight _ you appear to be suggesting that you place greater weight upon _ you appear to be suggesting that you place greater weight upon what - you appear to be suggesting that you place greater weight upon what you l place greater weight upon what you were being — place greater weight upon what you were being told _ place greater weight upon what you were being told by _ place greater weight upon what you were being told by phe, _ place greater weight upon what you were being told by phe, perhaps i were being told by phe, perhaps formally, — were being told by phe, perhaps formally, then _ were being told by phe, perhaps formally, then the _ were being told by phe, perhaps formally, then the information . were being told by phe, perhaps - formally, then the information which was being _ formally, then the information which was being relayed both _ formally, then the information which was being relayed both directly- formally, then the information which was being relayed both directly and. was being relayed both directly and indirectly. — was being relayed both directly and indirectly, rooted _ was being relayed both directly and indirectly, rooted through - was being relayed both directly and. indirectly, rooted through nervtag, sage. _ indirectly, rooted through nervtag, sage. the _ indirectly, rooted through nervtag, sage. the cm0~ _ indirectly, rooted through nervtag, sage. the cmo. we _ indirectly, rooted through nervtag, sage. the (mo-— sage, the (mo. it's a very good question- _ sage, the (mo. it's a very good question- i'm — sage, the cmo. it's a very good question. i'm not— sage, the (mo. it's a very good question. i'm not sure - sage, the (mo. it's a very good question. i'm not sure i - sage, the (mo. it's a very good question. i'm not sure i saw - sage, the (mo. it's a very good question. i'm not sure i saw it l sage, the (mo. it's a very good i question. i'm not sure i saw it like that. i saw inconclusive evidence on the one hand and categoric conclusions based on the scientific method, that is, this is unproven,

on the other. and those only finally got resolved at the very start of april with the cdc evidence. fin got resolved at the very start of april with the cdc evidence. on the 11th of march _ april with the cdc evidence. on the 11th of march at _ april with the cdc evidence. on the 11th of march at a _ april with the cdc evidence. on the 11th of march at a cabinet _ april with the cdc evidence. on the 11th of march at a cabinet meeting, l 11th of march at a cabinet meeting, you saidm — iith of march at a cabinet meeting, you said... unless— 11th of march at a cabinet meeting, you said... unless individuals - 11th of march at a cabinet meeting, you said... unless individuals were| you said... unless individuals were symptomatic. _ you said... unless individuals were symptomatic, there _ you said... unless individuals were symptomatic, there was _ you said... unless individuals were symptomatic, there was no - you said... unless individuals were symptomatic, there was no point l you said... unless individuals were| symptomatic, there was no point in being _ symptomatic, there was no point in being tested, — symptomatic, there was no point in being tested, the _ symptomatic, there was no point in being tested, the test _ symptomatic, there was no point in being tested, the test would - symptomatic, there was no point in being tested, the test would not. being tested, the test would not work _ being tested, the test would not work sage. _ being tested, the test would not work sage. not— being tested, the test would not work. sage, not nervtag - being tested, the test would not work. sage, not nervtag about being tested, the test would not - work. sage, not nervtag about sage the officiat— work. sage, not nervtag about sage the official advisory _ work. sage, not nervtag about sage the official advisory body— work. sage, not nervtag about sage the official advisory body for- the official advisory body for emergencies, _ the official advisory body for emergencies, which - the official advisory body for emergencies, which was - the official advisory body forl emergencies, which was the the official advisory body for- emergencies, which was the sole reach _ emergencies, which was the sole reach of— emergencies, which was the sole reach of scientific— emergencies, which was the sole reach of scientific advice - emergencies, which was the sole reach of scientific advice for- emergencies, which was the sole reach of scientific advice for the i reach of scientific advice for the common. — reach of scientific advice for the common. have _ reach of scientific advice for the common, have reported - reach of scientific advice for the common, have reported on- reach of scientific advice for the common, have reported on the| reach of scientific advice for the - common, have reported on the 28th of january, _ common, have reported on the 28th of january. specific— common, have reported on the 28th of january, specific test _ common, have reported on the 28th of

january, specific test should _ common, have reported on the 28th of january, specific test should be - january, specific test should be ready— january, specific test should be ready try— january, specific test should be ready try the _ january, specific test should be ready by the end _ january, specific test should be ready by the end of _ january, specific test should be ready by the end of the - january, specific test should be ready by the end of the week, i ready by the end of the week, capacity— ready by the end of the week, capacity around _ ready by the end of the week, capacity around 400 - ready by the end of the week, capacity around 400 to - ready by the end of the week, capacity around 400 to 500 l ready by the end of the week, - capacity around 400 to 500 tests. currehtty — capacity around 400 to 500 tests. currently would _ capacity around 400 to 500 tests. currently would not _ capacity around 400 to 500 tests. currently would not be _ capacity around 400 to 500 tests. currently would not be useful- capacity around 400 to 500 tests. currently would not be useful to l currently would not be useful to test asymptomatic— currently would not be useful to test asymptomatic individuals, i currently would not be useful to. test asymptomatic individuals, as currently would not be useful to i test asymptomatic individuals, as a negative _ test asymptomatic individuals, as a negative test — test asymptomatic individuals, as a negative test result _ test asymptomatic individuals, as a negative test result could - test asymptomatic individuals, as a negative test result could not - test asymptomatic individuals, as a negative test result could not be i negative test result could not be interpreted — negative test result could not be interpreted with _ negative test result could not be interpreted with certainty. - negative test result could not be interpreted with certainty. the . interpreted with certainty. the point — interpreted with certainty. the point made _ interpreted with certainty. the point made try— interpreted with certainty. the point made by sage, - interpreted with certainty. the point made by sage, and - interpreted with certainty. the point made by sage, and its. interpreted with certainty. the - point made by sage, and its apparent also from _ point made by sage, and its apparent also from sir— point made by sage, and its apparent also from sir patrick— point made by sage, and its apparent also from sir patrick vallance's - also from sir patrick vallance's diaries— also from sir patrick vallance's diaries and _ also from sir patrick vallance's diaries and from _ also from sir patrick vallance's diaries and from the _ also from sir patrick vallance's diaries and from the cmo, - also from sir patrick vallance's diaries and from the cmo, is. also from sir patrick vallance's i diaries and from the cmo, is the scientific— diaries and from the cmo, is the scientific evidence _ diaries and from the cmo, is the scientific evidence was _ diaries and from the cmo, is the scientific evidence was saying. diaries and from the cmo, is the| scientific evidence was saying you can test _ scientific evidence was saying you cah test for— scientific evidence was saying you can test for asymptomatic - can test for asymptomatic individuals— can test for asymptomatic individuals and _ can test for asymptomatic individuals and of- can test for asymptomatic individuals and of course i can test for asymptomatic - individuals and of course you knew very well— individuals and of course you knew very well that _ individuals and of course you knew very well that contact _ individuals and of course you knew very well that contact tracing - individuals and of course you knew very well that contact tracing for. very well that contact tracing for the first— very well that contact tracing for the first few _ very well that contact tracing for the first few hundred _ very well that contact tracing for the first few hundred individualsl the first few hundred individuals required — the first few hundred individuals required to— the first few hundred individuals required to sing _ the first few hundred individuals required to sing everybody. - the first few hundred individuals - required to sing everybody. whether asymptomatic— required to sing everybody. whether asymptomatic or _ required to sing everybody. whether asymptomatic or not. _ required to sing everybody. whether asymptomatic or not. but _ required to sing everybody. whether asymptomatic or not. but that there| asymptomatic or not. but that there were a _ asymptomatic or not. but that there were a real— asymptomatic or not. but that there were a real problems _ asymptomatic or not. but that there were a real problems with _ asymptomatic or not. but that there were a real problems with the - were a real problems with the outcome, _ were a real problems with the outcome, because... - were a real problems with the outcome, because... we - were a real problems with the outcome, because...- were a real problems with the outcome, because... we are 'ust auoin to outcome, because... we are 'ust going to moi outcome, because... we are 'ust going to break from i outcome, because... we are 'ust going to break from the i outcome, because... we are just going to break from the covid - going to break from the covid inquiry for a moment to bring you some breaking news from the world of

music. shane mcgowan has died, having been discharged from hospital last week. his wife victoria confirmed he had died in social media. he fronted the band from 1982 until their break—up in 2014. the band are best known for their christmas hit song, fairytale of new york. # it was christmas eve, babe # it was christmas eve, babe # in the drunk tank # in the drunk tank # an old man said to me... fairytale of new york, a bleak drink sodden duet about lives gone wrong isn't a normal christmas classic. it was trademark shane mcgowan. # i turned my face away # i turned my face away # and trained about you. his band

the pogues brought a rambunctious punk fury to irish folk but behind the noise, the drinking and the terrible teeth was a writer of rare talent. his roots were ireland, tipperary but he was actually born in tunbridge wells. he was a london punk but also one who had a scholarship to public school. but it was when he and his friends began to inject a bit of that attitude into the music of their childhood that he began to enjoy success. he crafted beauty and poetry out of hard lives. and even harder

drinking. something shane mcgowan knew all about. but he survived —— but that he survived as long as he did is something of a miracle. sometimes it's easier to write songs when i'm out of it. the sometimes it's easier to write songs when i'm out of it.— when i'm out of it. the stories of his excesses _ when i'm out of it. the stories of his excesses rather _ when i'm out of it. the stories ofl his excesses rather overshadowed what made him special. thankfully... # the bells were ringing out for christmas day. we will always have this to remind us. every christmas. the pogues front man, shane mcgowan, who has died at the age of 65. let's go back to the covid inquiry,

where matt hancock continues to give evidence. ., , , evidence. how in this hugely important — evidence. how in this hugely important issue _ evidence. how in this hugely important issue could - evidence. how in this hugely important issue could that i important issue could that distinction, _ important issue could that distinction, that— important issue could that| distinction, that difference important issue could that. distinction, that difference of understanding, _ distinction, that difference of understanding, have - distinction, that difference of. understanding, have resulted? distinction, that difference of- understanding, have resulted? well, let me explain- _ understanding, have resulted? well, let me explain. actually, _ understanding, have resulted? well, let me explain. actually, i'm - understanding, have resulted? let me explain. actually, i'm not sure this is a point worth pursuing. i think mr hancock has given his explanation which is that he doesn't accept _ explanation which is that he doesn't accept the _ explanation which is that he doesn't accept the meaning that he would tribute _ accept the meaning that he would tribute to— accept the meaning that he would tribute to his comments. | rbrill accept the meaning that he would tribute to his comments. i will move on. we've tribute to his comments. i will move on- we've been _ tribute to his comments. i will move on. we've been exploring, _ tribute to his comments. i will move on. we've been exploring, mr- on. we've been exploring, mr hancock, _ on. we've been exploring, mr hancock, some _ on. we've been exploring, mr hancock, some of— on. we've been exploring, mr hancock, some of the - hancock, some of the areas, asymptomatic— hancock, some of the areas, asymptomatic transmission, | hancock, some of the areas, . asymptomatic transmission, the testing. — asymptomatic transmission, the testing. what— asymptomatic transmission, the testing, what was _ asymptomatic transmission, the testing, what was said - asymptomatic transmission, the testing, what was said about. asymptomatic transmission, the| testing, what was said about the departmerrt— testing, what was said about the department and _ testing, what was said about the department and its _ testing, what was said about the department and its response. i testing, what was said about the - department and its response. because as you _ department and its response. because as you know— department and its response. because as you know very— department and its response. because as you know very well, _ department and its response. because as you know very well, mr— department and its response. because as you know very well, mr cummings, | as you know very well, mr cummings, sir patricl

sir patrick vallance in his diaries, - heather mcnamara have made reference to you _ heather mcnamara have made reference to you lying. _ heather mcnamara have made reference to you lying. do — heather mcnamara have made reference to you lying. do you _ heather mcnamara have made reference to you lying, do you getting _ to you lying, do you getting overexcited _ to you lying, do you getting overexcited and _ to you lying, do you getting overexcited and just - to you lying, do you getting overexcited and just saying | to you lying, do you getting - overexcited and just saying stuff, that you — overexcited and just saying stuff, that you say _ overexcited and just saying stuff, that you say things _ overexcited and just saying stuff, that you say things which - overexcited and just saying stuff, i that you say things which surprised people _ that you say things which surprised people because _ that you say things which surprised people because they— that you say things which surprised people because they knew - that you say things which surprised people because they knew the - people because they knew the evidence — people because they knew the evidence base _ people because they knew the evidence base wasn'tthere. i people because they knew the i evidence base wasn'tthere. 0ut people because they knew the - evidence base wasn'tthere. out of fairness _ evidence base wasn'tthere. out of fairness to— evidence base wasn'tthere. out of fairness to you. _ evidence base wasn'tthere. out of fairness to you, and _ evidence base wasn'tthere. out of fairness to you, and because - evidence base wasn'tthere. out of fairness to you, and because thisl fairness to you, and because this is a vital— fairness to you, and because this is a vital issue — fairness to you, and because this is a vital issue that _ fairness to you, and because this is a vital issue that goes _ fairness to you, and because this is a vital issue that goes to _ fairness to you, and because this is a vital issue that goes to how - fairness to you, and because this is a vital issue that goes to how well. a vital issue that goes to how well the system — a vital issue that goes to how well the system of— a vital issue that goes to how well the system of government - a vital issue that goes to how well the system of government was . the system of government was operating. _ the system of government was operating. you _ the system of government was operating, you being _ the system of government was operating, you being as- the system of government was operating, you being as you i the system of government was - operating, you being as you describe in your— operating, you being as you describe in your book— operating, you being as you describe in your book in — operating, you being as you describe in your book in the _ operating, you being as you describe in your book in the hot _ operating, you being as you describe in your book in the hot seat, - operating, you being as you describe in your book in the hot seat, how- in your book in the hot seat, how could. _ in your book in the hot seat, how could. to — in your book in the hot seat, how could. to a — in your book in the hot seat, how could, to a significant _ in your book in the hot seat, how could, to a significant extent, - could, to a significant extent, important _ could, to a significant extent, important government- could, to a significant extent, i important government advisers could, to a significant extent, - important government advisers and officials _ important government advisers and officials have — important government advisers and officials have concluded _ important government advisers and officials have concluded that - important government advisers and officials have concluded that the . officials have concluded that the secretary — officials have concluded that the secretary of _ officials have concluded that the secretary of state _ officials have concluded that the secretary of state for _ officials have concluded that the secretary of state for health, i secretary of state for health, during — secretary of state for health, during this _ secretary of state for health, during this public— secretary of state for health, during this public health - secretary of state for health, i during this public health crisis, secretary of state for health, - during this public health crisis, in the more — during this public health crisis, in the more of— during this public health crisis, in the more of the _ during this public health crisis, in the more of the beast, _ during this public health crisis, in the more of the beast, was- during this public health crisis, in the more of the beast, was a - during this public health crisis, ml the more of the beast, was a liar? well. _ the more of the beast, was a liar? well. i_ the more of the beast, was a liar? well. i was — the more of the beast, was a liar? well. i was not _ the more of the beast, was a liar? well, i was not. you _ the more of the beast, was a liar? well, i was not. you will— the more of the beast, was a liar? well, i was not. you will note - the more of the beast, was a liar? well, i was not. you will note thati well, i was not. you will note that there is no evidence from anybody who i worked with in the department or the health system who supported

that, those false allegations. and indeed, where there have been specifics attached to any of those allegations i have gone through them and i would be happy to answer questions on any of them. then on a couple of occasions, there were general sweeping allegations which had no evidence whatsoever. in one case the witness said, i haven't got this in black and of course not because it wasn't true. in another case, the witness said that the accountability arrangement didn't pick this up, and they didn't because the allegation wasn't true. what there was, was a great deal of hard work on our side and a toxic culture that we had to work with which seemed to want to find people to blame rather than spend all their effort to solving the problems. as i've said before, i drove the system

hard. sometimes the people i was trying to push into action didn't think the action was necessary. and that's already been very clear. i didn't know about most of this at the time but i knew it was difficult getting stuff through the centre but nobody express any of these things to my face. mr nobody express any of these things to m face. ~ . nobody express any of these things to m face. ~ , nobody express any of these things to my face-— nobody express any of these things to m face. ~ , .,, ., ., to my face. mr cummings was not one ofthe to my face. mr cummings was not one of the peeple — to my face. mr cummings was not one of the peeple of— to my face. mr cummings was not one of the people of whom _ to my face. mr cummings was not one of the people of whom it _ to my face. mr cummings was not one of the people of whom it might - to my face. mr cummings was not one of the people of whom it might be - of the people of whom it might be said he _ of the people of whom it might be said he was— of the people of whom it might be said he was resisting _ of the people of whom it might be said he was resisting the - of the people of whom it might be i said he was resisting the government machine _ said he was resisting the government machine being — said he was resisting the government machine being moved onwards - said he was resisting the government. machine being moved onwards because the evidence _ machine being moved onwards because the evidence plainly— machine being moved onwards because the evidence plainly shows _ machine being moved onwards because the evidence plainly shows that - the evidence plainly shows that around — the evidence plainly shows that around the _ the evidence plainly shows that around the 13th _ the evidence plainly shows that around the 13th and _ the evidence plainly shows that around the 13th and 14th - the evidence plainly shows that around the 13th and 14th of - the evidence plainly shows that. around the 13th and 14th of march, one of— around the 13th and 14th of march, one of the — around the 13th and 14th of march, one of the voices _ around the 13th and 14th of march, one of the voices calling _ around the 13th and 14th of march, one of the voices calling for- around the 13th and 14th of march, one of the voices calling for more. one of the voices calling for more immediate — one of the voices calling for more immediate action. _ one of the voices calling for more immediate action. but— one of the voices calling for more immediate action. but he - one of the voices calling for more immediate action. but he says i one of the voices calling for morel immediate action. but he says not 'ust immediate action. but he says not just that _ immediate action. but he says not just that you — immediate action. but he says not just that you lied _ immediate action. but he says not just that you lied but _ immediate action. but he says not just that you lied but you - just that you lied but you were unfit _ just that you lied but you were unfit for— just that you lied but you were unfit for the _ just that you lied but you were unfit for the job, _ just that you lied but you were unfit for the job, and - just that you lied but you were unfit for the job, and as - just that you lied but you were unfit for the job, and as you i just that you lied but you were - unfit for the job, and as you know, he and _ unfit for the job, and as you know, he and mr— unfit for the job, and as you know, he and mrjohnson_ unfit for the job, and as you know, he and mrjohnson debated - unfit for the job, and as you know, he and mrjohnson debated that. unfit for the job, and as you know, i he and mrjohnson debated that claim and there _ he and mrjohnson debated that claim and there was — he and mrjohnson debated that claim and there was a — he and mrjohnson debated that claim and there was a debate _ he and mrjohnson debated that claim and there was a debate about - he and mrjohnson debated that claim and there was a debate about you - and there was a debate about you being _ and there was a debate about you being sacked _ and there was a debate about you being sacked. the _ and there was a debate about you being sacked. the the _ and there was a debate about you being sacked. the the inquiry- and there was a debate about you being sacked. the the inquiry has| and there was a debate about you i being sacked. the the inquiry has no interest— being sacked. the the inquiry has no interest in_ being sacked. the the inquiry has no interest in the — being sacked. the the inquiry has no interest in the truth _ being sacked. the the inquiry has no interest in the truth of— being sacked. the the inquiry has no interest in the truth of the _ interest in the truth of the allegations. _ interest in the truth of the allegations. it— interest in the truth of the allegations. it is— interest in the truth of the. allegations. it is impossible interest in the truth of the - allegations. it is impossible for the inquiry— allegations. it is impossible for the inquiry to— allegations. it is impossible for the inquiry to resolve - allegations. it is impossible for the inquiry to resolve them. i

allegations. it is impossible forl the inquiry to resolve them. but allegations. it is impossible for- the inquiry to resolve them. but the fact that _ the inquiry to resolve them. but the fact that the — the inquiry to resolve them. but the fact that the prime _ the inquiry to resolve them. but the fact that the prime minister, - the inquiry to resolve them. but the fact that the prime minister, his - fact that the prime minister, his chief— fact that the prime minister, his chief adviser, _ fact that the prime minister, his chief adviser, the _ fact that the prime minister, his chief adviser, the deputy - fact that the prime minister, hisi chief adviser, the deputy cabinet secretary, — chief adviser, the deputy cabinet secretary, the _ chief adviser, the deputy cabinet secretary, the permanent- chief adviser, the deputy cabinet. secretary, the permanent secretary all questioned your— secretary, the permanent secretary all questioned your candour - secretary, the permanent secretary all questioned your candour and - secretary, the permanent secretary all questioned your candour and ini all questioned your candour and in large _ all questioned your candour and in large part— all questioned your candour and in large part fitness _ all questioned your candour and in large part fitness for— all questioned your candour and in large part fitness for the _ all questioned your candour and in large part fitness for the job - all questioned your candour and in large part fitness for the job is - all questioned your candour and in large part fitness for the job is a l large part fitness for the job is a vitat— large part fitness for the job is a vital issue — large part fitness for the job is a vital issue to _ large part fitness for the job is a vital issue to any _ large part fitness for the job is a vital issue to any examination . vital issue to any examination of how wett— vital issue to any examination of how well the _ vital issue to any examination of how well the system _ vital issue to any examination ofi how well the system responded. vital issue to any examination of - how well the system responded. this is an extraordinary— how well the system responded. this is an extraordinary state _ how well the system responded. this is an extraordinary state of— is an extraordinary state of affairs _ is an extraordinary state of affairs. ~ , .. affairs. well, the inquiry can if it chooses get _ affairs. well, the inquiry can if it chooses get to _ affairs. well, the inquiry can if it chooses get to the _ affairs. well, the inquiry can if it chooses get to the bottom - affairs. well, the inquiry can if it chooses get to the bottom of. affairs. well, the inquiry can if it. chooses get to the bottom of each affairs. well, the inquiry can if it- chooses get to the bottom of each of the specific allegations, because they are not true and i'm very happy to write an explanation of each and every one of them. of course, the impact of the toxic culture that essentially was caused by the chief adviser but that clearly i can now see, not that i knew at the time, others were brought into, that was unhelpful. on the other hand, in the

heat of a crisis, people say things, especially on whatsapp which is essentially conversational, that they may not be therefore considered opinion —— my opinion. the cabinet secretary also described me as it can do in a note of the prime minister. sol can do in a note of the prime minister. so i think there a broader view, do i got him —— but i got on with him perfectly well through the whole thing. and afterwards. and it's only because of this inquiry that i've seen that the language that i've seen that the language that he was using behind the scenes. so was this a problem? up to a point. what is the lesson for the future? i think unfortunately the lesson for the future is, systems need to be in place so that if there is a malign actor in number 10, and in this case that was the example but there may be in the future, but if there are people whose behaviour

is unprofessional, the system needs to be able to work despite that. that's why i place reliance on the cobra system and why i tried to use the cobra system, and i think that is the repository of emergency response, knowledge, understanding, experience within government and it was the appropriate place to run this response, till it became so big that it needed its own systems of decision—making and eventually the core—macro s and covid oh systems were put in place which is what i would recommend in the future. so after a point it was a problem. was it unpleasant? yes, it was unpleasant for a whole load of my stuff as well who were subject to this sort of abuse from the chief adviser. it went wider than i thought at the time, but myjob was

to lead the health care system, the whole thing, 1.4 million people in the nhs over 3 million in social care, so ijust got on with doing that to the best of my ability. if i interru t, that to the best of my ability. if i interrupt, you said systems need to be in _ interrupt, you said systems need to be in place — interrupt, you said systems need to be in place and then he spoke about cobra _ be in place and then he spoke about cobra and _ be in place and then he spoke about cobra and systems that we now did come _ cobra and systems that we now did come into— cobra and systems that we now did come into play. so what are you suggesting should happen in the future _ suggesting should happen in the future if— suggesting should happen in the future if you have as you described it, a future if you have as you described it. a malign — future if you have as you described it, a malign influence? unfortunately the system needs to be there irrespective of the personalities of the people who are involved. the way i would recommended is that when you have a small or medium—sized crisis, the lead government department model works. when a crisis becomes clearly cross governmental, you need either the cdl, which really should be also the cdl, which really should be also the deputy prime minister, that is the deputy prime minister, that is the role, that's how it is normally done, how to stand at the moment. occasionally the deputy minister is

another secretary of state. far better to have cdl. you can escalate to the cdl to have a cross government response and then that would also bring in more resource from other departments, and then you can escalate the cobra system to the prime minister and then the escalation above that is to put in place specific structures, cabinet subcommittees, for a response to an all in golfing crisis. we tried with one process, which helped but it wasn't as good as the covid s and covid o wasn't as good as the covid s and covid 0 structure.— wasn't as good as the covid s and covid 0 structure. need to ask you three ancillary _ covid 0 structure. need to ask you three ancillary issues _ covid 0 structure. need to ask you three ancillary issues related to i three ancillary issues related to the issue — three ancillary issues related to the issue of— three ancillary issues related to the issue of the _ three ancillary issues related to the issue of the atmosphere - three ancillary issues related toi the issue of the atmosphere and three ancillary issues related to - the issue of the atmosphere and the operations— the issue of the atmosphere and the operations of— the issue of the atmosphere and the operations of number— the issue of the atmosphere and the operations of number 10. _ the issue of the atmosphere and the operations of number 10. so- the issue of the atmosphere and the operations of number 10. so we're i operations of number 10. so we're not done _ operations of number 10. so we're not done with _ operations of number 10. so we're not done with this _ operations of number 10. so we're not done with this subject - operations of number 10. so we're not done with this subject yet, - operations of number 10. so we're not done with this subject yet, i'm| not done with this subject yet, i'm afraid _

not done with this subject yet, i'm afraid. firstly. _ not done with this subject yet, i'm afraid. firstly, evidence _ not done with this subject yet, i'm afraid. firstly, evidence has- not done with this subject yet, i'm afraid. firstly, evidence has beeni afraid. firstly, evidence has been given— afraid. firstly, evidence has been given mr— afraid. firstly, evidence has been given mr cummings— afraid. firstly, evidence has been given mr cummings may- afraid. firstly, evidence has been given mr cummings may have - afraid. firstly, evidence has been - given mr cummings may have exercised an unhealthy— given mr cummings may have exercised an unhealthy degree _ given mr cummings may have exercised an unhealthy degree of _ given mr cummings may have exercised an unhealthy degree of influence - given mr cummings may have exercised an unhealthy degree of influence on- an unhealthy degree of influence on the prime _ an unhealthy degree of influence on the prime minister. _ an unhealthy degree of influence on the prime minister. you _ an unhealthy degree of influence on the prime minister. you may- an unhealthy degree of influence on the prime minister. you may or- an unhealthy degree of influence on| the prime minister. you may or may not be _ the prime minister. you may or may not be aware — the prime minister. you may or may not be aware that _ the prime minister. you may or may not be aware that it _ the prime minister. you may or may not be aware that it is _ the prime minister. you may or may not be aware that it is contested - not be aware that it is contested evidence — not be aware that it is contested evidence. some _ not be aware that it is contested evidence. some witnesses - not be aware that it is contested evidence. some witnesses or. not be aware that it is contested l evidence. some witnesses or one witness _ evidence. some witnesses or one witness says _ evidence. some witnesses or one witness says he _ evidence. some witnesses or one witness says he did, _ evidence. some witnesses or one witness says he did, another- evidence. some witnesses or onej witness says he did, another says evidence. some witnesses or one i witness says he did, another says he didn't _ witness says he did, another says he didn't are _ witness says he did, another says he didn't are you — witness says he did, another says he didn't are you in— witness says he did, another says he didn't. are you in a _ witness says he did, another says he didn't. are you in a position to- didn't. are you in a position to comment— didn't. are you in a position to comment on— didn't. are you in a position to comment on that _ didn't. are you in a position to comment on that particular. didn't. are you in a position to- comment on that particular aspect, that is— comment on that particular aspect, that is to _ comment on that particular aspect, that is to say — comment on that particular aspect, that is to say there _ comment on that particular aspect, that is to say there are _ comment on that particular aspect, that is to say there are not - comment on that particular aspect, that is to say there are not a - that is to say there are not a special— that is to say there are not a special adviser— that is to say there are not a special adviser exercised - that is to say there are not a j special adviser exercised too that is to say there are not a - special adviser exercised too great an influence — special adviser exercised too great an influence on _ special adviser exercised too great an influence on the _ special adviser exercised too great i an influence on the decision—making process? _ an influence on the decision—making process? and — an influence on the decision—making process? and i— an influence on the decision—making process? and i invite _ an influence on the decision—making process? and i invite you _ an influence on the decision—making process? and i invite you please - an influence on the decision—making process? and i invite you please to. process? and i invite you please to stick— process? and i invite you please to stick to— process? and i invite you please to stick to this — process? and i invite you please to stick to this rigid _ process? and i invite you please to stick to this rigid structural- stick to this rigid structural issue~ _ stick to this rigid structural issue in— stick to this rigid structural issue. in terms _ stick to this rigid structural issue. in terms of- stick to this rigid structural issue. in terms of the - issue. in terms of the decision—making - issue. in terms of the i decision—making ability issue. in terms of the - decision—making ability of the issue. in terms of the _ decision—making ability of the prime minister. _ decision—making ability of the prime minister. was — decision—making ability of the prime minister, was there _ decision—making ability of the prime minister, was there too _ decision—making ability of the prime minister, was there too great - decision—making ability of the prime minister, was there too great an - minister, was there too great an influence — minister, was there too great an influence operated? _ minister, was there too great an influence operated? pit- minister, was there too great an influence operated?— minister, was there too great an influence operated? at times, yes. and i'll be influence operated? at times, yes. and i'll be very _ influence operated? at times, yes. and i'll be very specific _ influence operated? at times, yes. and i'll be very specific about - influence operated? at times, yes. and i'll be very specific about what | and i'll be very specific about what i thought went wrong. as the cobra system was running, in february, the prime minister's chief adviser

decided that he didn't like the cobra system, that is on record, and he decided instead to take all of the major daily decisions into his office. and he invited a subset of the people who needed to be there to these meetings, didn't invite any ministers, he didn't regard ministers, he didn't regard ministers as a valuable contribution to any decision making as far as i could see, the crisis, or indeed any other time. 50 could see, the crisis, or indeed any other time-— could see, the crisis, or indeed any. other time-_ he other time. so that steam cobra. he took the decisions, _ other time. so that steam cobra. he took the decisions, tempted - other time. so that steam cobra. he took the decisions, tempted to - other time. so that steam cobra. he took the decisions, tempted to take | took the decisions, tempted to take them from the cobra process to a meeting that he ran daily at 8am. he invited some of the right people but not all of them, he didn't check

with me beforehand and clashed it directly with my daily meeting which was frustrating because we had had a daily meeting at the department to feed into the ministerial meeting. in one of these early meetings, the chief adviser said decisions do not need to go to the prime minister. that is inappropriate in a democracy. i saw it simply as essentially a power grab. but it got in the way of organising the response it was then replaced by another system which was better. irate another system which was better. we will come back to that letter. the inquiry— will come back to that letter. the inquiry asked _ will come back to that letter. the inquiry asked mr— will come back to that letter. the inquiry asked mr cummings - will come back to that letter. the inquiry asked mr cummings to i will come back to that letter. the . inquiry asked mr cummings to what extent— inquiry asked mr cummings to what extent was— inquiry asked mr cummings to what extent was this _ inquiry asked mr cummings to what extent was this a _ inquiry asked mr cummings to what extent was this a matter— inquiry asked mr cummings to what extent was this a matter of- extent was this a matter of toxicity -- toxicity — extent was this a matter of toxicity —— toxicity whether _ extent was this a matter of toxicity —— toxicity whether or— extent was this a matter of toxicity —— toxicity whether or not - extent was this a matter of toxicity —— toxicity whether or not it - —— toxicity whether or not it actually affected _ —— toxicity whether or not it actually affected the - —— toxicity whether or not it. actually affected the running of —— toxicity whether or not it - actually affected the running of the government— actually affected the running of the government machine _ actually affected the running of the government machine and - actually affected the running of the government machine and lead -

actually affected the running of the government machine and lead to l government machine and lead to serious _ government machine and lead to serious consequences. _ government machine and lead to serious consequences. here - it may be thought to be rather

remarkable. _ it may be thought to be rather remarkable, mr hancock, - it may be thought to be rather remarkable, mr hancock, thatj we have discussed the structural problem. — we have discussed the structural problem. which _ we have discussed the structural problem, which was _ we have discussed the structural problem, which was essentially. we have discussed the structural. problem, which was essentially an adviser— problem, which was essentially an adviser trying _ problem, which was essentially an adviser trying to _ problem, which was essentially an adviser trying to take _ problem, which was essentially an adviser trying to take executive i adviser trying to take executive authority— adviser trying to take executive authority away _ adviser trying to take executive . authority away from the minister. for a _ authority away from the minister. for a period — authority away from the minister. for a period until— authority away from the minister. for a period until the _ authority away from the minister. for a period until the cabinet- for a period until the cabinet secretary stopped it and put in place they make the process. but there was also a cultural problem which is that there was a culture of fear inculcated by the behaviour of this particular individual. in the middle of february, it effectively caused the resignation of the chancellor of the exchequer. it is important because... mr hancock, lease important because... mr hancock, please forgive _ important because... mr hancock, please forgive me, _ important because... mr hancock, please forgive me, the _ important because... mr hancock, i please forgive me, the determination of what _ please forgive me, the determination of what is _ please forgive me, the determination

of what is really — please forgive me, the determination of what is really for _ please forgive me, the determination of what is really for the _ of what is really for the questioner. _ of what is really for the questioner. if- of what is really for the questioner. if my- of what is really for the questioner. if my lady. of what is really for the - questioner. if my lady believes of what is really for the _ questioner. if my lady believes that you and _ questioner. if my lady believes that you and preventing _ questioner. if my lady believes that you and preventing you _ questioner. if my lady believes that you and preventing you from - questioner. if my lady believes that| you and preventing you from raising something — you and preventing you from raising something bought _ you and preventing you from raising something bought and _ you and preventing you from raising something bought and she - you and preventing you from raising something bought and she will- you and preventing you from raising something bought and she will no . something bought and she will no doubt _ something bought and she will no doubt correct _ something bought and she will no doubt correct me. _ something bought and she will no doubt correct me. the _ something bought and she will no doubt correct me. the issue - something bought and she will no doubt correct me. the issue of. something bought and she will noi doubt correct me. the issue of the resignation — doubt correct me. the issue of the resignation of the _ doubt correct me. the issue of the resignation of the chancellor - resignation of the chancellor doesn't _ resignation of the chancellor doesn't appear— resignation of the chancellor doesn't appear to _ resignation of the chancellor doesn't appear to me - resignation of the chancellor doesn't appear to me to - resignation of the chancellor doesn't appear to me to be i resignation of the chancellori doesn't appear to me to be of resignation of the chancellor - doesn't appear to me to be of great moment— doesn't appear to me to be of great moment in— doesn't appear to me to be of great moment in the _ doesn't appear to me to be of great moment in the context _ doesn't appear to me to be of great moment in the context of _ moment in the context of the coronavirus _ moment in the context of the coronavirus response. - moment in the context of the coronavirus response. it- moment in the context of the coronavirus response.- moment in the context of the coronavirus response. it was, let me exlain coronavirus response. it was, let me explain why- — coronavirus response. it was, let me explain why- it _ coronavirus response. it was, let me explain why. it was, _ coronavirus response. it was, let me explain why. it was, just _ coronavirus response. it was, let me explain why. it was, just two - explain why. it was, just two sentences. it was, because it inculcated a culture of fear, whereas what we needed was a culture whereas what we needed was a culture where everybody was brought to the table and given their heads to do their level best in a once in a generation crisis. the way to lead in a crisis like this is to give people the confidence to do what they think needs to happen, and it caused the opposite. mar; they think needs to happen, and it caused the opposite.— caused the opposite. may her lad shi caused the opposite. may her ladyship assume _ caused the opposite. may her ladyship assume from - caused the opposite. may her ladyship assume from that. caused the opposite. may her - ladyship assume from that answer that you _ ladyship assume from that answer that you would _ ladyship assume from that answer that you would say _ ladyship assume from that answer that you would say the _ ladyship assume from that answer that you would say the same - ladyship assume from that answer that you would say the same in i that you would say the same in relation — that you would say the same in relation to— that you would say the same in relation to the _ that you would say the same in relation to the way— that you would say the same in relation to the way in _ that you would say the same in relation to the way in which - that you would say the same inj relation to the way in which the cabinet — relation to the way in which the cabinet secretary— relation to the way in which the

cabinet secretary was - relation to the way in which the cabinet secretary was treated i relation to the way in which the| cabinet secretary was treated in relation to the way in which the - cabinet secretary was treated in may of 2020? _ cabinet secretary was treated in may of 2020? i— cabinet secretary was treated in may of 2020? ., , �* ., ., of 2020? i wasn't involved in that. but it would _ of 2020? i wasn't involved in that. but it would be _ of 2020? i wasn't involved in that. but it would be far _ of 2020? i wasn't involved in that. but it would be far better- of 2020? i wasn't involved in that. but it would be far better for- of 2020? i wasn't involved in that. but it would be far better for the l but it would be far better for the system to have been run in a positive and collaborative spirit, as we tried to run the health family. there were tensions within the health system, there were always trade—offs and challenges but we essentially had a collaborative system where everybody came together and did their level best in a positive spirit and when something went wrong we asked how to fix it. that is how come it's the only way to lead a very large organisations in a crisis. ., to lead a very large organisations in a crisis— in a crisis. indeed. now, can we come to the _ in a crisis. indeed. now, can we come to the criminology - in a crisis. indeed. now, can we come to the criminology and - in a crisis. indeed. now, can we. come to the criminology and your understanding _ come to the criminology and your understanding of— come to the criminology and your understanding of the _ come to the criminology and your understanding of the crisis - come to the criminology and your understanding of the crisis faced. come to the criminology and your. understanding of the crisis faced by the government? _ understanding of the crisis faced by the government? —— _ understanding of the crisis faced by the government? —— come - understanding of the crisis faced by the government? —— come to - understanding of the crisis faced by the government? —— come to the l the government? —— come to the chronology —

the government? —— come to the chronology in— the government? —— come to the chronology. in your— the government? —— come to the chronology. in your statement, l the government? —— come to the . chronology. in your statement, you say that— chronology. in your statement, you say that on— chronology. in your statement, you say that on the _ chronology. in your statement, you say that on the 9th of _ chronology. in your statement, you say that on the 9th ofjanuary, - chronology. in your statement, you say that on the 9th ofjanuary, he l say that on the 9th ofjanuary, he received. — say that on the 9th ofjanuary, he received, because _ say that on the 9th ofjanuary, he received, because you _ say that on the 9th ofjanuary, he received, because you had - say that on the 9th ofjanuary, he received, because you had asked| say that on the 9th ofjanuary, he - received, because you had asked for, a full— received, because you had asked for, a full written — received, because you had asked for, a full written briefing _ received, because you had asked for, a full written briefing on— received, because you had asked for, a full written briefing on the - received, because you had asked for, a full written briefing on the news - a full written briefing on the news reports _ a full written briefing on the news reports he — a full written briefing on the news reports he had _ a full written briefing on the news reports he had seen _ a full written briefing on the news reports he had seen in _ a full written briefing on the news reports he had seen in the - a full written briefing on the news reports he had seen in the press. | reports he had seen in the press. you made — reports he had seen in the press. you made inquiries _ reports he had seen in the press. you made inquiries —— _ reports he had seen in the press. you made inquiries —— you - reports he had seen in the press. you made inquiries —— you had i reports he had seen in the press. - you made inquiries —— you had seen. he made _ you made inquiries —— you had seen. he made inquiries— you made inquiries —— you had seen. he made inquiries about _ you made inquiries —— you had seen. he made inquiries about exercise - he made inquiries about exercise sickness. — he made inquiries about exercise sickness. you _ he made inquiries about exercise sickness, you tend _ he made inquiries about exercise sickness, you tend to _ he made inquiries about exercise sickness, you tend to find - he made inquiries about exercise sickness, you tend to find what . he made inquiries about exercise i sickness, you tend to find what the position— sickness, you tend to find what the position was — sickness, you tend to find what the position was in _ sickness, you tend to find what the position was in relation _ sickness, you tend to find what the position was in relation to - position was in relation to vaccines _ position was in relation to vaccines he— position was in relation to vaccines. he spoke - position was in relation to vaccines. he spoke to - position was in relation to vaccines. he spoke to thej position was in relation to - vaccines. he spoke to the cmo repeatedly _ vaccines. he spoke to the cmo repeatedly you _ vaccines. he spoke to the cmo repeatedly. you asked - vaccines. he spoke to the cmo repeatedly. you asked for - vaccines. he spoke to the cmo repeatedly. you asked for a . repeatedly. you asked for a full written — repeatedly. you asked for a full written briefing. _ repeatedly. you asked for a full written briefing. you _ repeatedly. you asked for a full written briefing. you also - repeatedly. you asked for a full written briefing. you also stay i repeatedly. you asked for a full. written briefing. you also stay in your— written briefing. you also stay in your statement _ written briefing. you also stay in your statement you _ written briefing. you also stay in your statement you spoke - written briefing. you also stay in your statement you spoke to - written briefing. you also stay in your statement you spoke to the prime _ your statement you spoke to the prime minister— your statement you spoke to the prime minister in _ your statement you spoke to the prime minister in the _ your statement you spoke to the prime minister in the voting - your statement you spoke to the. prime minister in the voting lobby and told _ prime minister in the voting lobby and told him _ prime minister in the voting lobby and told him about— prime minister in the voting lobby and told him about the _ prime minister in the voting lobby and told him about the new - and told him about the new disease, and told him about the new disease, and you _ and told him about the new disease, and you in— and told him about the new disease, and you in a — and told him about the new disease, and you in a later— and told him about the new disease, and you in a later passage _ and told him about the new disease, and you in a later passage in your. and you in a later passage in your statement — and you in a later passage in your statement say _ and you in a later passage in your statement say in court _ and you in a later passage in your statement say in court indirectly. statement say in court indirectly on at least _ statement say in court indirectly on at least four occasions _ statement say in court indirectly on at least four occasions to _ statement say in court indirectly on at least four occasions to try- statement say in court indirectly on at least four occasions to try and i at least four occasions to try and impress— at least four occasions to try and impress your— at least four occasions to try and impress your concerns— at least four occasions to try and impress your concerns regardingj at least four occasions to try and - impress your concerns regarding the impact _ impress your concerns regarding the impact of— impress your concerns regarding the impact of the — impress your concerns regarding the impact of the virus. _ impress your concerns regarding the impact of the virus. do _ impress your concerns regarding the impact of the virus. do we _ impress your concerns regarding the impact of the virus. do we take - impress your concerns regarding the| impact of the virus. do we take from that sentence — impact of the virus. do we take from that sentence in _ impact of the virus. do we take from

that sentence in your _ impact of the virus. do we take from that sentence in your statement - impact of the virus. do we take from that sentence in your statement that he had _ that sentence in your statement that he had repeatedly— that sentence in your statement that he had repeatedly tried _ that sentence in your statement that he had repeatedly tried to _ that sentence in your statement that he had repeatedly tried to speak- that sentence in your statement that he had repeatedly tried to speak to i he had repeatedly tried to speak to him about— he had repeatedly tried to speak to him about it — he had repeatedly tried to speak to him about it because _ he had repeatedly tried to speak to him about it because you _ he had repeatedly tried to speak to him about it because you assessed| him about it because you assessed that the _ him about it because you assessed that the seriousness _ him about it because you assessed that the seriousness of— him about it because you assessed that the seriousness of the - him about it because you assessed| that the seriousness of the position was not _ that the seriousness of the position was not being — that the seriousness of the position was not being made _ that the seriousness of the position was not being made plain _ that the seriousness of the position was not being made plain to- that the seriousness of the position was not being made plain to him, l that the seriousness of the position. was not being made plain to him, he didn't— was not being made plain to him, he didn't get— was not being made plain to him, he didn't get the — was not being made plain to him, he didn't get the seriousness _ was not being made plain to him, he didn't get the seriousness of- was not being made plain to him, he didn't get the seriousness of the - didn't get the seriousness of the position? — didn't get the seriousness of the osition? ., , _, ., , position? no, in his conversations with me, position? no, in his conversations with me. he _ position? no, in his conversations with me, he always _ position? no, in his conversations with me, he always acknowledged position? no, in his conversations- with me, he always acknowledged the potential seriousness, and at that stage, his response was that i needed to keep an eye on it and do what i necessary. and i think that was an appropriate response at the very early stage. after all, we have these potential and democrats all these potential and democrats all the time. there have been two in the last fortnight in the newspaper. they are your words are done on at least _ they are your words are done on at least four— they are your words are done on at least four occasions, _ they are your words are done on at least four occasions, so _ they are your words are done on at least four occasions, so introduced| least four occasions, so introduced -- possibly— least four occasions, so introduced -- possibly inches— least four occasions, so introduced —— possibly inches from _ least four occasions, so introduced —— possibly inches from that - least four occasions, so introduced —— possibly inches from that that l —— possibly inches from that that you meant— —— possibly inches from that that you meant throughout _ —— possibly inches from that that you meant throughout january. l —— possibly inches from that that i you meant throughout january. no you meant throughout january. no man, i you meant throughout january. man, i meant untilaround you meant throughout january. iii, man, i meant until around the you meant throughout january.- man, i meant untilaround the middle man, i meant until around the middle ofjanuary. —— no, i meant was to my

position moved from being one of many potential crises that are always on the radar of a health secretary, to a full—scale national concern in the middle ofjanuary. and now from the evidence, think it was the 22nd of january, that chris wormald delegated all other responsibilities in the health department other than what was then known as the coronavirus, so we took it very seriously and made it absolutely the number one issue from the middle ofjanuary. itruiiiiii absolutely the number one issue from the middle ofjanuary.— the middle ofjanuary. will you for: ive the middle ofjanuary. will you forgive me _ the middle ofjanuary. will you forgive me if— the middle ofjanuary. will you forgive me if i _ the middle ofjanuary. will you forgive me if i just remind - forgive me if ijust remind you please — forgive me if ijust remind you please to— forgive me if ijust remind you please to keep _ forgive me if ijust remind you please to keep your— forgive me if ijust remind you please to keep your answers i forgive me if ijust remind you. please to keep your answers as concise — please to keep your answers as concise as _ please to keep your answers as concise as you _ please to keep your answers as concise as you feel _ please to keep your answers as concise as you feel you - please to keep your answers as concise as you feel you can? in| please to keep your answers as - concise as you feel you can? in your statement _ concise as you feel you can? in your statement you — concise as you feel you can? in your statement you nevertheless - concise as you feel you can? in your statement you nevertheless said - concise as you feel you can? in your. statement you nevertheless said that others _ statement you nevertheless said that others appeared _ statement you nevertheless said that others appeared to _ statement you nevertheless said that others appeared to be _ statement you nevertheless said that others appeared to be astonished - statement you nevertheless said that others appeared to be astonished or. others appeared to be astonished or disinterested. — others appeared to be astonished or disinterested, or— others appeared to be astonished or disinterested, or you _ others appeared to be astonished or disinterested, or you were - disinterested, or you were astonished _ disinterested, or you were astonished that some - disinterested, or you were . astonished that some people disinterested, or you were - astonished that some people were disinterested — astonished that some people were disinterested or— astonished that some people were disinterested or less _ astonished that some people were disinterested or less than - disinterested or less than interested _ disinterested or less than interested in— disinterested or less than interested in the - disinterested or less than . interested in the seriousness disinterested or less than - interested in the seriousness of the position— interested in the seriousness of the position as — interested in the seriousness of the position as he — interested in the seriousness of the position as he saw _ interested in the seriousness of the position as he saw it. _ interested in the seriousness of the position as he saw it. is— interested in the seriousness of the position as he saw it. is that - interested in the seriousness of the position as he saw it. is that a - position as he saw it. is that a reference _ position as he saw it. is that a reference to _ position as he saw it. is that a reference to people _ position as he saw it. is that a reference to people who - position as he saw it. is that a . reference to people who matter, that's _ reference to people who matter, that's to — reference to people who matter, that's to say _ reference to people who matter, that's to say people _

reference to people who matter, that's to say people who - reference to people who matter, that's to say people who were i reference to people who matter, that's to say people who were in| reference to people who matter, . that's to say people who were in a position— that's to say people who were in a position to — that's to say people who were in a position to move _ that's to say people who were in a position to move the _ that's to say people who were in a position to move the government| position to move the government machine — position to move the government machine forward, _ position to move the government machine forward, or— position to move the government machine forward, orjust - position to move the government machine forward, orjust people i position to move the government i machine forward, orjust people you happened _ machine forward, orjust people you happened to — machine forward, orjust people you happened to speak— machine forward, orjust people you happened to speak to? _ machine forward, orjust people you happened to speak to?— machine forward, orjust people you happened to speak to? everybody. if ou think happened to speak to? everybody. if you think about _ happened to speak to? everybody. if you think about it _ happened to speak to? everybody. if you think about it like _ happened to speak to? everybody. if you think about it like this... - happened to speak to? everybody. if you think about it like this... just - you think about it like this... just lease, you think about it like this. .. just please. mr— you think about it like this... just please, mr hancock, where they people _ please, mr hancock, where they people who _ please, mr hancock, where they people who mattered _ please, mr hancock, where they people who mattered in - please, mr hancock, where they - people who mattered in government or were they— people who mattered in government or were they people — people who mattered in government or were they people you _ people who mattered in government or were they people you spoke _ people who mattered in government or were they people you spoke to - people who mattered in government or were they people you spoke to in - people who mattered in government or were they people you spoke to in the l were they people you spoke to in the course _ were they people you spoke to in the course of— were they people you spoke to in the course of your— were they people you spoke to in the course of your day—to—day _ were they people you spoke to in the course of your day—to—day duties? i course of your day—to—day duties? both _ course of your day-to-day duties? both. �* ., both. are right. on the 13th of janua , both. are right. on the 13th of january. your— both. are right. on the 13th of january, your statement - both. are right. on the 13th of - january, your statement describes how nervtag _ january, your statement describes how nervtag give _ january, your statement describes how nervtag give advice - january, your statement describes how nervtag give advice to - january, your statement describes how nervtag give advice to the l how nervtag give advice to the effect _ how nervtag give advice to the effect that — how nervtag give advice to the effect that there _ how nervtag give advice to the effect that there was, _ how nervtag give advice to the effect that there was, and - how nervtag give advice to the effect that there was, and i - effect that there was, and i paraphrase. _ effect that there was, and i paraphrase, very— effect that there was, and i paraphrase, very little - effect that there was, and i | paraphrase, very little point effect that there was, and i i paraphrase, very little point in screening _ paraphrase, very little point in screening. and _ paraphrase, very little point in screening. and your— paraphrase, very little point in| screening. and your statement demonstrates how— screening. and your statement demonstrates how throughouti screening. and your statement - demonstrates how throughout january, but particularly — demonstrates how throughout january, but particularly following _ demonstrates how throughout january, but particularly following the _ but particularly following the chinese _ but particularly following the chinese new _ but particularly following the chinese new year, - but particularly following the chinese new year, you - but particularly following the chinese new year, you werej but particularly following the _ chinese new year, you were concerned about _ chinese new year, you were concerned about the _ chinese new year, you were concerned about the relatively _ chinese new year, you were concerned about the relatively limited _ chinese new year, you were concerned about the relatively limited way - chinese new year, you were concerned about the relatively limited way in - about the relatively limited way in which _ about the relatively limited way in which the — about the relatively limited way in which the government _ about the relatively limited way in which the government was - about the relatively limited way in - which the government was responding to the _ which the government was responding to the risk— which the government was responding to the risk of— which the government was responding to the risk of infection _ which the government was responding to the risk of infection through - which the government was responding to the risk of infection through the - to the risk of infection through the borders. _ to the risk of infection through the borders, through _ to the risk of infection through the borders, through the _ to the risk of infection through the borders, through the border, - borders, through the border, references— borders, through the border, references to _ borders, through the border, references to handing - borders, through the border, references to handing out - borders, through the border, -

references to handing out leaflets, asking _ references to handing out leaflets, asking passengers _ references to handing out leaflets, asking passengers whether- references to handing out leaflets, asking passengers whether they i references to handing out leaflets, . asking passengers whether they were ill. asking passengers whether they were itt~ and _ asking passengers whether they were itt~ and you _ asking passengers whether they were ill. and you say — asking passengers whether they were ill. and you say in _ asking passengers whether they were ill. and you say in broad _ asking passengers whether they were ill. and you say in broad terms- asking passengers whether they were ill. and you say in broad terms that l ill. and you say in broad terms that you sought. — ill. and you say in broad terms that you sought. or— ill. and you say in broad terms that you sought. or at— ill. and you say in broad terms that you sought, or at least— ill. and you say in broad terms that you sought, or at least wished - ill. and you say in broad terms that you sought, or at least wished to l you sought, or at least wished to have _ you sought, or at least wished to have debated _ you sought, or at least wished to have debated the _ you sought, or at least wished to have debated the issue _ you sought, or at least wished to have debated the issue of- have debated the issue of guarantine. _ have debated the issue of quarantine, travel- have debated the issue of quarantine, travel bans . have debated the issue of. quarantine, travel bans and have debated the issue of- quarantine, travel bans and that have debated the issue of— quarantine, travel bans and that not enough _ quarantine, travel bans and that not enough in _ quarantine, travel bans and that not enough in general— quarantine, travel bans and that not enough in general terms _ quarantine, travel bans and that not enough in general terms was - quarantine, travel bans and that not enough in general terms was being. enough in general terms was being done. _ enough in general terms was being done. is _ enough in general terms was being done. is that— enough in general terms was being done. is that a— enough in general terms was being done, is that a fair— enough in general terms was being done, is that a fair summary? - enough in general terms was being done, is that a fair summary? yes. the inquiry — done, is that a fair summary? yes. the inquiry has _ done, is that a fair summary? yes. the inquiry has heard _ done, is that a fair summary? yes. the inquiry has heard a _ done, is that a fair summary? the inquiry has heard a great deal of evidence — the inquiry has heard a great deal of evidence from _ the inquiry has heard a great deal of evidence from the _ the inquiry has heard a great deal of evidence from the scientists i the inquiry has heard a great deal of evidence from the scientists as| of evidence from the scientists as to the _ of evidence from the scientists as to the scientific _ of evidence from the scientists as to the scientific and _ of evidence from the scientists as to the scientific and practical - to the scientific and practical reality— to the scientific and practical reality of border— to the scientific and practical reality of border controls. is| to the scientific and practical. reality of border controls. is it fair to— reality of border controls. is it fair to say— reality of border controls. is it fair to say that _ fair to say that notwithstanding your concerns, _ fair to say that notwithstanding your concerns, ultimately - fair to say that notwithstanding - your concerns, ultimately relatively speaking _ your concerns, ultimately relatively speaking very— your concerns, ultimately relatively speaking very little _ your concerns, ultimately relatively speaking very little was _ your concerns, ultimately relatively speaking very little was done - your concerns, ultimately relatively speaking very little was done by- your concerns, ultimately relativelyl speaking very little was done by way of stringent — speaking very little was done by way of stringent restrictions _ speaking very little was done by way of stringent restrictions being - of stringent restrictions being placed — of stringent restrictions being placed on— of stringent restrictions being placed on the _ of stringent restrictions being placed on the border- of stringent restrictions being placed on the border to - of stringent restrictions being placed on the border to stop. placed on the border to stop infection?— placed on the border to stop infection?- and - placed on the border to stop infection?- and i... - placed on the border to stop infection?- and i. . .- placed on the border to stop infection?- and i... infection? yes. and i... i accepted their advice. _ infection? yes. and i... i accepted their advice, and _ infection? yes. and i... i accepted their advice, and when _ infection? yes. and i... i accepted their advice, and when in - their advice, and when in mid—february the virus blew up first in italy, that was proof point they were right because italy had put in

place more screening at the border, and then they became the first place known to be widely invited in europe. and that was confirmation if you like that the scientific advice had been right.— you like that the scientific advice had been rirht. ., , . . had been right. your statement also makes plain — had been right. your statement also makes plain that _ had been right. your statement also makes plain that you _ had been right. your statement also makes plain that you sought - makes plain that you sought assurances _ makes plain that you sought assurances as— makes plain that you sought assurances as to _ makes plain that you sought assurances as to what - makes plain that you sought assurances as to what was l makes plain that you sought| assurances as to what was in makes plain that you sought - assurances as to what was in place in terms _ assurances as to what was in place in terms of— assurances as to what was in place in terms of the _ assurances as to what was in place in terms of the contact _ assurances as to what was in place in terms of the contact tracing - in terms of the contact tracing programme _ in terms of the contact tracing programme such— in terms of the contact tracing programme such as _ in terms of the contact tracing programme such as it - in terms of the contact tracing programme such as it was, i in terms of the contact tracing i programme such as it was, and in terms of the contact tracing - programme such as it was, and you become _ programme such as it was, and you become aware. _ programme such as it was, and you become aware. as— programme such as it was, and you become aware, as perhaps - programme such as it was, and you become aware, as perhaps you - programme such as it was, and you l become aware, as perhaps you would have known— become aware, as perhaps you would have known already _ become aware, as perhaps you would have known already as _ become aware, as perhaps you would have known already as the _ become aware, as perhaps you would have known already as the secretaryl have known already as the secretary of state, _ have known already as the secretary of state, that — have known already as the secretary of state, that there _ have known already as the secretary of state, that there was _ have known already as the secretary of state, that there was a _ have known already as the secretary of state, that there was a limited i of state, that there was a limited process— of state, that there was a limited process of— of state, that there was a limited process of test. _ of state, that there was a limited process of test, trace, _ of state, that there was a limited process of test, trace, isolate, i process of test, trace, isolate, test, _ process of test, trace, isolate, test. trace. _ process of test, trace, isolate, test, trace, conduct— process of test, trace, isolate, test, trace, conduct and - process of test, trace, isolate, | test, trace, conduct and isolate process of test, trace, isolate, - test, trace, conduct and isolate for hi-h test, trace, conduct and isolate for high conseguent _ test, trace, conduct and isolate for high consequent diseases, - test, trace, conduct and isolate for high consequent diseases, for- high consequent diseases, for travellers, _ high consequent diseases, for travellers, for— high consequent diseases, for travellers, for the _ high consequent diseases, for travellers, for the first - high consequent diseases, for travellers, for the first few . travellers, for the first few hundred _ travellers, for the first few hundred cases, _ travellers, for the first few hundred cases, that - travellers, for the first few hundred cases, that was . travellers, for the first few i hundred cases, that was the travellers, for the first few - hundred cases, that was the overall system _ hundred cases, that was the overall system how— hundred cases, that was the overall system. how soon— hundred cases, that was the overall system. how soon did _ hundred cases, that was the overall system. how soon did you - hundred cases, that was the overall. system. how soon did you appreciate that that _ system. how soon did you appreciate that that system, _ system. how soon did you appreciate that that system, limited _ system. how soon did you appreciate that that system, limited as - system. how soon did you appreciate that that system, limited as it - system. how soon did you appreciate that that system, limited as it was i that that system, limited as it was was never— that that system, limited as it was was never going _ that that system, limited as it was was never going be _ that that system, limited as it was was never going be able _ that that system, limited as it was was never going be able to - that that system, limited as it was was never going be able to cope . that that system, limited as it was i was never going be able to cope with the unprecedented _ was never going be able to cope with the unprecedented demands- was never going be able to cope with the unprecedented demands of- was never going be able to cope with the unprecedented demands of a - the unprecedented demands of a pandemic— the unprecedented demands of a pandemic within _ the unprecedented demands of a pandemic within an _ the unprecedented demands of a pandemic within an adventure i the unprecedented demands of a pandemic within an adventure —— the unprecedented demands of a - pandemic within an adventure —— but with the _ pandemic within an adventure —— but with the fertility _

pandemic within an adventure —— but with the fertility rate _ pandemic within an adventure —— but with the fertility rate —— _ pandemic within an adventure —— but with the fertility rate —— so _ with the fertility rate —— so chris whitty _ with the fertility rate —— so chris whitty has — with the fertility rate —— so chris whitty has described _ with the fertility rate —— so chris whitty has described to - with the fertility rate —— so chris whitty has described to the - with the fertility rate —— so chris . whitty has described to the inquiry that he _ whitty has described to the inquiry that he had — whitty has described to the inquiry that he had no— whitty has described to the inquiry that he had no illusions _ whitty has described to the inquiry that he had no illusions that- whitty has described to the inquiry that he had no illusions that the i whitty has described to the inquiry| that he had no illusions that the uk was well— that he had no illusions that the uk was well set — that he had no illusions that the uk was well set up _ that he had no illusions that the uk was well set up to _ that he had no illusions that the uk was well set up to meet _ that he had no illusions that the uk was well set up to meet the - was well set up to meet the challenges _ was well set up to meet the challenges of— was well set up to meet the challenges of a _ was well set up to meet the challenges of a major - was well set up to meet the - challenges of a major pandemic. in part because — challenges of a major pandemic. in part because of— challenges of a major pandemic. in part because of the _ challenges of a major pandemic. in part because of the absence - challenges of a major pandemic. in part because of the absence of- challenges of a major pandemic. in part because of the absence of a i part because of the absence of a sophisticated _ part because of the absence of a sophisticated tti _ part because of the absence of a sophisticated tti system. - part because of the absence of a sophisticated tti system. he - part because of the absence of a . sophisticated tti system. he knew the investment— sophisticated tti system. he knew the investment in— sophisticated tti system. he knew the investment in public— sophisticated tti system. he knew the investment in public health - sophisticated tti system. he knew the investment in public health forj the investment in public health for the investment in public health for the purposes— the investment in public health for the purposes of— the investment in public health for the purposes of dealing _ the investment in public health for the purposes of dealing with - the investment in public health for the purposes of dealing with a - the purposes of dealing with a pandemic— the purposes of dealing with a pandemic was— the purposes of dealing with a pandemic was suboptimal, - the purposes of dealing with a pandemic was suboptimal, to| the purposes of dealing with a . pandemic was suboptimal, to use the purposes of dealing with a - pandemic was suboptimal, to use his words _ pandemic was suboptimal, to use his words and _ pandemic was suboptimal, to use his words and he — pandemic was suboptimal, to use his words. and he knew— pandemic was suboptimal, to use his words. and he knew that _ pandemic was suboptimal, to use his words. and he knew that there - pandemic was suboptimal, to use his words. and he knew that there were i words. and he knew that there were realistically— words. and he knew that there were realistically few _ words. and he knew that there were realistically few levers _ words. and he knew that there were realistically few levers of _ words. and he knew that there were realistically few levers of power - words. and he knew that there were realistically few levers of power at l realistically few levers of power at the disposal— realistically few levers of power at the disposal of— realistically few levers of power at the disposal of the _ realistically few levers of power at the disposal of the government i realistically few levers of power at the disposal of the government to realistically few levers of power at i the disposal of the government to be able to— the disposal of the government to be able to control — the disposal of the government to be able to control the _ the disposal of the government to be able to control the spread _ the disposal of the government to be able to control the spread of - the disposal of the government to be able to control the spread of an - able to control the spread of an infection — able to control the spread of an infection. short— able to control the spread of an infection. short of— able to control the spread of an infection. short of the - able to control the spread of anl infection. short of the measures which _ infection. short of the measures which ultimately— infection. short of the measures which ultimately came _ infection. short of the measures which ultimately came to - infection. short of the measures which ultimately came to be - infection. short of the measures - which ultimately came to be applied. when _ which ultimately came to be applied. when did _ which ultimately came to be applied. when did you — which ultimately came to be applied. when did you begin— which ultimately came to be applied. when did you begin to _ when did you begin to appreciate that that — when did you begin to appreciate that that was _ when did you begin to appreciate that that was the _ when did you begin to appreciate that that was the reality? - when did you begin to appreciate that that was the reality?- that that was the reality? again, durin: that that was the reality? again, during february. _ that that was the reality? again, during february. during - that that was the reality? again, during february. during januaryl during february. during january there was very high quality science undertaken, the scientific performance of phe was superb, and the advice i got was reassuring,

that we were well placed, and it gradually became clear to me that this wasn't right. in gradually became clear to me that this wasn't right.— this wasn't right. in your statement, _ this wasn't right. in your statement, you - this wasn't right. in your statement, you refer - this wasn't right. in your statement, you refer to | this wasn't right. in your- statement, you refer to how in this wasn't right. in your— statement, you refer to how in late january— statement, you refer to how in late january and — statement, you refer to how in late januaryand in— statement, you refer to how in late january and in spite _ statement, you refer to how in late january and in spite of— statement, you refer to how in late january and in spite of your- statement, you refer to how in late january and in spite of your contactj january and in spite of your contact with the _ january and in spite of your contact with the prime _ january and in spite of your contact with the prime minister, _ january and in spite of your contact with the prime minister, your- january and in spite of your contactj with the prime minister, your team were _ with the prime minister, your team were still— with the prime minister, your team were still getting _ with the prime minister, your team were still getting calls— with the prime minister, your team were still getting calls from - with the prime minister, your teaml were still getting calls from number 10 and _ were still getting calls from number 10 and being — were still getting calls from number 10 and being dragged _ were still getting calls from number 10 and being dragged into _ were still getting calls from number 10 and being dragged into meetings| 10 and being dragged into meetings about— 10 and being dragged into meetings about how— 10 and being dragged into meetings about how you — 10 and being dragged into meetings about how you were _ 10 and being dragged into meetings about how you were going - 10 and being dragged into meetings about how you were going to - 10 and being dragged into meetings| about how you were going to deliver manifesto _ about how you were going to deliver manifesto commitments. _ about how you were going to deliver manifesto commitments. what - about how you were going to deliver manifesto commitments. what was| about how you were going to deliver- manifesto commitments. what was that about? _ manifesto commitments. what was that about? the— manifesto commitments. what was that about? ~ , . , about? the prime minister hadjust about? the prime minister had 'ust won a thumping i about? the prime minister had 'ust won a thumping majority �* about? the prime minister had 'ust won a thumping majority and h about? the prime minister hadjust won a thumping majority and his i about? the prime minister had just i won a thumping majority and his team understandably wanted to make sure that the manifesto was delivered in full over five years so that they could successfully run for a. mr hancock. _ could successfully run for a. mr hancock, you raise this in your own witness _ hancock, you raise this in your own witness statement _ hancock, you raise this in your own witness statement in _ hancock, you raise this in your own witness statement in the _ hancock, you raise this in your own witness statement in the context . hancock, you raise this in your own| witness statement in the context of raising _ witness statement in the context of raising your — witness statement in the context of raising your concerns _ witness statement in the context of raising your concerns with - witness statement in the context of raising your concerns with the - raising your concerns with the banister, _ raising your concerns with the banister, then _ raising your concerns with the banister, then noting - raising your concerns with the banister, then noting your- raising your concerns with the . banister, then noting your team raising your concerns with the - banister, then noting your team was being _ banister, then noting your team was being sidelined _ banister, then noting your team was being sidelined or— banister, then noting your team was being sidelined or diverted. - banister, then noting your team was being sidelined or diverted. —— - being sidelined or diverted. —— raising — being sidelined or diverted. —— raising your _ being sidelined or diverted. —— raising your concerns- being sidelined or diverted. —— raising your concerns with - being sidelined or diverted. —— raising your concerns with the i being sidelined or diverted. —— - raising your concerns with the prime minister _ raising your concerns with the prime minister they— raising your concerns with the prime minister. they are _ raising your concerns with the prime minister. they are your— raising your concerns with the prime minister. they are your words, - raising your concerns with the prime minister. they are your words, not i minister. they are your words, not those _ minister. they are your words, not those of— minister. they are your words, not those of the — minister. they are your words, not those of the inquiry. _ minister. they are your words, not those of the inquiry.— minister. they are your words, not those of the inquiry. yes. may- minister. they are your words, not those of the inquiry. yes. may wei those of the inquiry. yes. may we resume those of the inquiry. yes. may we presume from _ those of the inquiry. yes. may we presume from the _ those of the inquiry.“ may we presume from the vacuum - those of the inquiry.“ may we presume from the vacuum and i presume from the vacuum and mentioned _

presume from the vacuum and mentioned it _ presume from the vacuum and mentioned it that _ presume from the vacuum and mentioned it that it _ presume from the vacuum and j mentioned it that it mattered? yet it would have been far better if that time _ yet it would have been far better if that time had been yet it would have been far better if that time had been spent yet it would have been far better if that time had been spent on yet it would have been far better if that time had been spent on the gathering — that time had been spent on the gathering storm. _ that time had been spent on the gathering storm. 0“— that time had been spent on the gathering storm.— gathering storm. on the 23rd of janua , gathering storm. on the 23rd of january. you — gathering storm. on the 23rd of january. you will _ gathering storm. on the 23rd of january, you will recall- gathering storm. on the 23rd of january, you will recall that - gathering storm. on the 23rd of january, you will recall that you | january, you will recall that you made a statement to parliament. i made a statement to parliament. i refer to that because it is a matter of record _ refer to that because it is a matter of record and — refer to that because it is a matter of record and not _ refer to that because it is a matter of record and not an _ refer to that because it is a matter of record and not an indirect- refer to that because it is a matterl of record and not an indirect breach of record and not an indirect breach of parliamentary— of record and not an indirect breach of parliamentary privilege. - of record and not an indirect breach of parliamentary privilege. because on the _ of parliamentary privilege. because on the same — of parliamentary privilege. because on the same day, _ of parliamentary privilege. because on the same day, you _ of parliamentary privilege. because on the same day, you say— of parliamentary privilege. because on the same day, you say in- of parliamentary privilege. because on the same day, you say in your. on the same day, you say in your statement — on the same day, you say in your statement that— on the same day, you say in your statement that the _ on the same day, you say in your statement that the chief- on the same day, you say in your statement that the chief medical| statement that the chief medical officer— statement that the chief medical officer told — statement that the chief medical officer told you _ statement that the chief medical officer told you there _ statement that the chief medical officer told you there was - statement that the chief medical officer told you there was a - statement that the chief medical. officer told you there was a 50—50 chance _ officer told you there was a 50—50 chance that — officer told you there was a 50—50 chance that a _ officer told you there was a 50—50 chance that a wuhan _ officer told you there was a 50—50 chance that a wuhan quarantine i officer told you there was a 50—50 i chance that a wuhan quarantine would not work _ chance that a wuhan quarantine would not work yes — chance that a wuhan quarantine would not work. yes. did _ chance that a wuhan quarantine would not work. yes. did you _ chance that a wuhan quarantine would not work. yes. did you deduce - chance that a wuhan quarantine would not work. yes. did you deduce from i not work. yes. did you deduce from that that _ not work. yes. did you deduce from that that if— not work. yes. did you deduce from that that if they— not work. yes. did you deduce from that that if they are _ not work. yes. did you deduce from that that if they are quarantining i that that if they are quarantining wuhan _ that that if they are quarantining wuhan did — that that if they are quarantining wuhan did not— that that if they are quarantining wuhan did not work, _ that that if they are quarantining wuhan did not work, there - that that if they are quarantining wuhan did not work, there was i that that if they are quarantining i wuhan did not work, there was no further— wuhan did not work, there was no further escaping _ wuhan did not work, there was no further escaping from _ wuhan did not work, there was no further escaping from the - wuhan did not work, there was no further escaping from the fact i wuhan did not work, there was no| further escaping from the fact that an outbreak— further escaping from the fact that an outbreak could _ further escaping from the fact that an outbreak could be _ further escaping from the fact that an outbreak could be prevented? i an outbreak could be prevented? essentially— an outbreak could be prevented? essentially that's _ an outbreak could be prevented? essentially that's what _ an outbreak could be prevented? essentially that's what i - an outbreak could be prevented? essentially that's what i was i an outbreak could be prevented? | essentially that's what i was told. and you were told also that there would _ and you were told also that there would be — and you were told also that there would be a — and you were told also that there would be a global— and you were told also that there would be a global outbreak. i and you were told also that there would be a global outbreak. ”that| would be a global outbreak. that there was a _

would be a global outbreak. that there was a 50-50 _ would be a global outbreak. tiitji'r there was a 50—50 chance of would be a global outbreak.- there was a 50—50 chance of being would be a global outbreak- there was a 50—50 chance of being a global outbreak